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Centurin
Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:19:00 -
[91]
On a side not, the T2 blaster ammo changes make me sad too... ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:28:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 18:30:37
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Centurin
Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:36:00 -
[93]
I dont really understand you, Jim. You got your Drake. It pwns every other BC. What are you doing here? Do you have something against drone boats? I think you need to fly a Myrmidon on the test server. As far as I know, the Drake does more damage than a Caracal. So, is it so wrong so ask that the Myrmidon do more damage than a Vexor? Drones aren't the I-win button you seem to think they are. ECM is what made drone boats great, and that's getting a major nerf. There is no denying that the Myrmidon needs a boost. Its obvious. I mean a Nevy Issue Vexor has the same drone bay. Gimme a break. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime |
Alkeena
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:47:00 -
[94]
For everyone implying that 5x T2 Heavy Drones with bonuses might be overpowered, I would like to point out the following:
With MAXED skills (including BC V) 1x Ogre II (thermal) puts out 95.04 DPS multiply by 5: 475.2 DPS
What about the guns? No gun bonuses but we'll go with 5x heavy electron IIs loaded with (old) Void (since I'm not sure on any ammo changes they've made).
5x Med Electron II w/void + 2 mag stab II, no bonus, maxed skills: 339 DPS
So, a Myrmidon fitting looking something like: Hi: 3x med Diminishing NOS, 5x Med Electron II w/void Med: 10mn MWD II, web, scram, med cap injector, EW mod of choice Low: RCU II, med rep II, EANM II, 2x mag stab II Drones: 5x Ogre II
And yes, that low setting is nearly suicidal. Looking for something gankish while still using our awesome () rep bonus.
Total Gank Myrm DPS w/5 Ogre IIs and absoloutly MAXED skills: 814 DPS w/4 Ogre IIs: ~719 DPS
For Comparison take a a Hurricane:
Hi: 7x 220 AC IIs w/, 1x Med Diminishing NOS Med: 10MN MWD II, web, scram, med cap injector Low: 1x med rep II, 2x EANM II, DC, 2x Gyro II Drones: 4x Hobgob II, 1x Hammerhead II
DPS from guns: ~663 Total DPS: ~774 w/ MAXED skills
I think everyone can aggree that the Hurricane fitting presented is a lot more viable than the Myrm fitting....
To recap: Suicidal Myrm fitting w/4 Ogre II: 719 DPS <- Current state of affairs Fair Hurricane fitting: 774 DPS Suicidal Myrm fitting w/5 Ogre II: 814 DPS
"You're just whining, you want more DPS than a Hurricane--suck it up nancy boy" To that I say: these figures were generated with an absoloutly terrible myrm fitting to maximize damage. Furthermore, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, 60% of the damage output of this ship can be simply shot out of the sky. Find a smart oponent or have to warp even once under adverse circumstances? Kiss 60% of your DPS goodbye, and the proportion only increases as you approach a more sane fitting that is more reliant upon its drones for its DPS.
In short: That fifth heavy drone (with bonus!) is not nearly as unbalanced as some would like to believe. Drones are a PITA to use anyway, and damned expensive to loose.
~Alkeena
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.26 19:00:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Centurin I dont really understand you, Jim. You got your Drake. It pwns every other BC.
Afaik, Jim flies Matari ships. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.26 19:09:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 19:09:42
Originally by: Centurin I dont really understand you, Jim. You got your Drake. It pwns every other BC. What are you doing here? Do you have something against drone boats? I think you need to fly a Myrmidon on the test server. As far as I know, the Drake does more damage than a Caracal. So, is it so wrong so ask that the Myrmidon do more damage than a Vexor? Drones aren't the I-win button you seem to think they are. ECM is what made drone boats great, and that's getting a major nerf. There is no denying that the Myrmidon needs a boost. Its obvious. I mean a Nevy Issue Vexor has the same drone bay. Gimme a break.
I dont fly caldari. I might start when the Drake shows up though. :) No, seriously, if its overpowered, it will get nerfed before release (hopefully!). And if myrmidon is underpowered, it will get boosted too.
When im running the numbers, it does look like the Myrmidon isnt getting the boost up from the t1 cruisers that the minmatar gets. Hurricane has much higher dps than the rupture, but Myrmidon only gains about 100 dps up from the Vexor even in full gank setup with t2 ammo (old stats, I dont know the new stats).
So devs should take a look at it and see if they feel its underpowered compared to the rest imo, with the new t2 ammo and all. I dont hate drone ships. I do hate gallente being better than the rest though, because I want game balance, and when you ask people what ships they recommend in the game, the answer is always the same - gallente. In a balanced game, you would get different opinions. Gallente is VERY strong in Eve, while minmatar and amarr have been falling behind the rest imo.
I do feel that its mostly on battleship level that gallente are uber strong though, and its mainly because of the ecm dominix which now is nerfed, and the range of t2 ammo for the blasterthron compared to autocannons (which might be nerfed, I dont know the new range for large ammo). So things will probably work out fine in the future, I hope. Its looking better for the other races these days I think.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.26 19:12:00 -
[97]
Originally by: keepiru
Originally by: Centurin I dont really understand you, Jim. You got your Drake. It pwns every other BC.
Afaik, Jim flies Matari ships.
Damn straight. :) Always been a sucker for selecting the most nerfed race in these kind of games for some reason. I was a mage in WoW, always getting pwned by almost everybody else but warriors too... its something in my nature to pick the worst it seems.
But they are FUN, thats what matters. And they arent too bad these days.. :)
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.26 19:32:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: keepiru
Originally by: Centurin I dont really understand you, Jim. You got your Drake. It pwns every other BC.
Afaik, Jim flies Matari ships.
Damn straight. :) Always been a sucker for selecting the most nerfed race in these kind of games for some reason. I was a mage in WoW, always getting pwned by almost everybody else but warriors too... its something in my nature to pick the worst it seems.
But they are FUN, thats what matters. And they arent too bad these days.. :)
If you like flying minmitar so much then wtf do you care if the Myr gets a 200m3 drone bay and can field 1 more heavy drone?
Because I said so...
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.26 20:05:00 -
[99]
He cares because he cares for game balance.
Frankly, Jim is a lot more reasonable opponent in these discussions than other, less civil, anti-drone fanatics are. - What am I listening to? |
Centurin
Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2006.10.26 20:18:00 -
[100]
I'm all for game balance. The ECM nerf pretty much puts drone ships in check IMO. The NOS nerf isn't going to help them either. All I want is for the Myrmidon to be on par with the other tier2 BCs. I appreciate your constructive post, Jim. The reason that most people think that Gallente need balance is because of ECM and to a lesser extent, NOS. Both of those have been addressed. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime |
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Temo Jick
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Posted - 2006.10.26 20:31:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Temo Jick on 26/10/2006 20:33:16
Originally by: Ithildin He cares because he cares for game balance.
Frankly, Jim is a lot more reasonable opponent in these discussions than other, less civil, anti-drone fanatics are.
This is the truth. If I see Jim's posted an opinion that differs from my own I know its time to do some reassessing. Very glad he has reassessed this one though, was getting a little uneasy.
Ok to keep on topic. Yes the ship is a big disappointment please give me some more drone bay, take high slots if you want, heck take them all I donÆt much care for them any way, just give me a drone bay I can use.
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.26 20:37:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Ithildin He cares because he cares for game balance.
Frankly, Jim is a lot more reasonable opponent in these discussions than other, less civil, anti-drone fanatics are.
Well that's not the way he was coming across. Making the case for a larger drone bay for the Myr is like beating my head against a brick wall.
It's so clear to me, I don't see why other people don't get it. I've used all four BCs. The other three are great. The Myr I can kill every time with any of the other three, without even trying.
Because I said so...
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.26 20:43:00 -
[103]
That's cause he's a GTC-using loozah and cant login himself ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 20:44:00 -
[104]
ok so how about this:
reduce to 6 hislots (6 turrets) give more lows and meds increase drone bay
change bonus to:
+5% hybrid damage per level +1 scout/medium drone control per level
reasoning? the myrmidon becomes a unique drone ship. it is not a vexor, since it dishes more damage than him. it is not a domi since it gives out more drones.
instead of giving a dmg bonus, why not increasing the ship's ability to field drones? -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.26 20:48:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 19:09:42
Originally by: Centurin I dont really understand you, Jim. You got your Drake. It pwns every other BC. What are you doing here? Do you have something against drone boats? I think you need to fly a Myrmidon on the test server. As far as I know, the Drake does more damage than a Caracal. So, is it so wrong so ask that the Myrmidon do more damage than a Vexor? Drones aren't the I-win button you seem to think they are. ECM is what made drone boats great, and that's getting a major nerf. There is no denying that the Myrmidon needs a boost. Its obvious. I mean a Nevy Issue Vexor has the same drone bay. Gimme a break.
I dont fly caldari. I might start when the Drake shows up though. :) No, seriously, if its overpowered, it will get nerfed before release (hopefully!). And if myrmidon is underpowered, it will get boosted too.
When im running the numbers, it does look like the Myrmidon isnt getting the boost up from the t1 cruisers that the minmatar gets. Hurricane has much higher dps than the rupture, but Myrmidon only gains about 100 dps up from the Vexor even in full gank setup with t2 ammo (old stats, I dont know the new stats).
So devs should take a look at it and see if they feel its underpowered compared to the rest imo, with the new t2 ammo and all. I dont hate drone ships. I do hate gallente being better than the rest though, because I want game balance, and when you ask people what ships they recommend in the game, the answer is always the same - gallente. In a balanced game, you would get different opinions. Gallente is VERY strong in Eve, while minmatar and amarr have been falling behind the rest imo.
I do feel that its mostly on battleship level that gallente are uber strong though, and its mainly because of the ecm dominix which now is nerfed, and the range of t2 ammo for the blasterthron compared to autocannons (which might be nerfed, I dont know the new range for large ammo). So things will probably work out fine in the future, I hope. Its looking better for the other races these days I think.
The reason (IMO) that everyone says "Gallente" (and I'm one of them) is because of ECM. Drones are ECM proof. Nos bypasses all those precious resistances. Couple those two things together and drone boats are superior. Also note that the amount of time a fight takes has a LOT to do with drone survivability. If a fight lasts 30 seconds, you simply don't have the time to kill five drones and then focus on the main target. With the HP boost now you do. It really does make a big difference.
I'm not using the Myr the way the rules are on Tranq, I'm using it the way things are for Kali. The old concepts just don't apply. Kali is actually going to be a huge buff to non-drone ships, simply because ECM won't cut them off at the knees anymore. No more erasing my entire ships guns with one flip of a switch.
As for who flies what: I have Minmitar BS at 4. I have Gallente BS at 4. I **LIKE** Minmitar stuff. I love the Rupture. I like autocannons. Why? Because they're nos-proof. I also like drones and drone ships. Why? Again, nos/ecm proof. Once ECM goes away and we get some anti-missile defence to go with turret disruptors (which are the new ECM tbh) and nos gets nerfed a little so it's no longer a direct replacement for guns everything will work out.
Additionally, I don't see any plans to buff remote armor reps, do you? Those things are worthless for combat as they are now.
Because I said so...
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Centurin
Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2006.10.26 20:49:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Centurin on 26/10/2006 20:52:27
Originally by: Grimpak ok so how about this:
reduce to 6 hislots (6 turrets) give more lows and meds increase drone bay
change bonus to:
+5% hybrid damage per level +1 scout/medium drone control per level
reasoning? the myrmidon becomes a unique drone ship. it is not a vexor, since it dishes more damage than him. it is not a domi since it gives out more drones.
instead of giving a dmg bonus, why not increasing the ship's ability to field drones?
It wouldn't be unique. It'd just be a Guardian Vexor. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime |
Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 20:50:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Centurin It wouldn't be unique. It'd just be a Guardian Vexor.
ahem... *BETTER* guardian vexor -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.26 20:58:00 -
[108]
What about 6 turrets, +5% Hybrid damage per level, 250m3 drone bay and +10% drone armor/shield hp and SPEED? No drone damage bonus.
Frankly I want to keep the drone damage bonus and have this be a drone based ship. Not just a Brutix that can hold 4 heavies. But the above option is something to think about. Another thing is that once you go over 125m3, you might as well give it 250m3 or somewhere around there. To me it seems everyone is just hung up on being able to field that 5th heavy drone, and once you're able to do that, who cares about the size of the drone bay really? Give it a decent amount.
Because I said so...
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Swiftness
Caldari VMF-214 Blacksheep
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Posted - 2006.10.26 21:02:00 -
[109]
It's the gallente cyclone, yes ? cruiser-like dps, a bit more slots and hp ....
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.26 21:04:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Swiftness It's the gallente cyclone, yes ? cruiser-like dps, a bit more slots and hp ....
On Tranquility I pwn with the Cyclone: ACs/nos in the highs, armor tank in the lows, and all ECM in the extra mid slots. Unstoppable. Now that ECM is nerfed, switch ECM to TDs and avoid Caldari ships
Because I said so...
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Alexi Borizkova
Caldari New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2006.10.26 21:09:00 -
[111]
At first I was opposed to increasing the myrmidon drone bay because it tread on the foot of the dominix drone damage.
However, I then looked at the ships more objectively, and kept the mineral values in mind. I do not think it is unreasonable for the myrmidon to be able to field a full rack of heavies without backup, or make the choice to field three racks of medium for extra waves.
I personally would like to see it get 150-175 dronebay, for a choice of either 3 waves of medium, 1 of heavy and one of light, or endless waves of anti frigate lights.
If you look at the vexor it can hold either 3 wings of lights, or a wing of heavies with a last resort wing of lights, the myrmidon just being "one size larger".
In Corporate Caldari, taxes pay YOU. |
Max Hardcase
Art of War
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Posted - 2006.10.26 21:11:00 -
[112]
15% damage/hp bonus to light and medium scout drones. Adjust drone bay a bit upwards and done.
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Temo Jick
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Posted - 2006.10.26 21:24:00 -
[113]
Some people have made the point that you donÆt fit BS sized guns/launchers on battlecruisers so you shouldnÆt get BS sized drones in them either. I want those people to consider that never the less battlecruisers do more damage then their smaller siblings. They do this by having more cruiser sized guns/launchers as they well know. A drone battlecruser can never do this. It can, no matter how much drone space you give it, only gets 5 drones out at a time. Now some people have suggested that this new drone BC should be restricted to medium drones and simply be able to field more of them, like other BCÆs simply have more guns/launchers. If this were to happen then what we have is more dps and, this is important, faster smaller drones with better tracking. Would you prefer to try and shoot down a larger slower target or a faster smaller one. Is that what you people want? No of coarse not so just let us have our 5th heavy drone already.
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 21:26:00 -
[114]
that is the reason behind my idea.
if BCs' are just cruisers with more guns, why not making a BC drone ship that fields MORE medium drones? -------
Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
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Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.26 21:28:00 -
[115]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Ithildin He cares because he cares for game balance.
Frankly, Jim is a lot more reasonable opponent in these discussions than other, less civil, anti-drone fanatics are.
Well that's not the way he was coming across. Making the case for a larger drone bay for the Myr is like beating my head against a brick wall.
It's so clear to me, I don't see why other people don't get it. I've used all four BCs. The other three are great. The Myr I can kill every time with any of the other three, without even trying.
Well, there is some truth in his words. The game currently has the following drone "carriers" - defined by either large drone bays or a drone damage bonus, sorted by base price (by memory is in parenthesis):
Tech 1 Tech 2 Typical Drone Complement Damage highs/bonus ------ Ishkur(1mil) Light 3/single Arbitrator(5m) Curse, Pilgrim (15m) Medium+Light 3/none Vexor (5m) Ishtar (18m) Medium+Light/All 4/3/single Myrmidon (35m) ------ ------ 5/none ------ Eos* (60m) All* 7/single Dominix (61m) ------ All 6/single Typhoon*(65m) ------ All* 8/single *Indicates no drone damage bonus, however contains room for more than 5 heavies.
I always find it interesting to sort ships by what they're "supposed" to cost, thought it may not really mean anything. It should be remembered that the Myrmidon is "larger" than the Ishtar - this generally means that it should deal more damage - like the Brutix outdamages the Deimos in some circumstances (Deimos has 7.5 "effective" turrets assuming HAC4, Brutix has 8.75 turrets assuming BC5). The question is then: What should the myrmidon do? I'm tempted to say something along the lines of a large bonus to medium drones and a medium hybrid bonus on 6 turrets. This would be, from turrets: 0 dmg mod, ions: 258.75dps 1 dmg mod, ions: 318.02dps 2 dmg mod, ions: 334.98dps And from drones, using hammer IIs, BC5, DI5, Gal spec 4: 223.9488 dps. So you'd have: 482.6988 using ions and no damage mods, 541.9688 using 1 dm and 558.9288 using 3 damage mods. That doesn't seem right though...
Anyways: If you complain that this ship would now deal more damage with its turrets than its drones, I say so does the Dominix and the Eos (in fact, in completely unusable setups the Dominix is the highest DPS battleship in the game, and I believe the Eos wins that title for CCs as well In both cases the turret:drone damage ratio is over 2:1). This would give the Gallente two BCs in the "gank" category by most people's consideration. This would not be such a bad thing imho - the Brutix will still tank better than the Myrmidon as it has the tanking bonus and would have easier fitting. The myrmidon would struggle for fitting 6 ions and a minimal tank - so those figures I posted would be the max you'd see in a setup with a tank of any sort.
I'm doing these calcs manually so if someone could run a 6 turret damage bonused Myrmidon with medium drones only through quickfit/whatever that'd be nice. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
LaCoHa
Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral
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Posted - 2006.10.26 21:28:00 -
[116]
Edited by: LaCoHa on 26/10/2006 21:30:27
Originally by: Max Hardcase 15% damage/hp bonus to light and medium scout drones. Adjust drone bay a bit upwards and done.
I really like that idea. Would make it more powerful than a Vexor, but not over powered.
5 bonused ogre II's is too much for a BC to be able to pop out - and I say this as a Domi jockey, and the proud owner of 4 or 5 million drone sp's
maybe even 20% though.. cant be bothered to do the math :)
"I just slaughtered 28 people in that game of Battlefield 2 and never died. Man my e-p33n feels huge." |
Max Hardcase
Art of War
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Posted - 2006.10.26 21:35:00 -
[117]
Originally by: LaCoHa Edited by: LaCoHa on 26/10/2006 21:30:27
Originally by: Max Hardcase 15% damage/hp bonus to light and medium scout drones. Adjust drone bay a bit upwards and done.
I really like that idea. Would make it more powerful than a Vexor, but not over powered.
5 bonused ogre II's is too much for a BC to be able to pop out - and I say this as a Domi jockey, and the proud owner of 4 or 5 million drone sp's
maybe even 20% though.. cant be bothered to do the math :)
Well I figured that being a BC its half way between a cruiser and a battleship so the drone bonus should be roughly that as well.
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Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.26 21:36:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Temo Jick Some people have made the point that you donÆt fit BS sized guns/launchers on battlecruisers so you shouldnÆt get BS sized drones in them either.
Ishtar/Eos anyone? --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
LaCoHa
Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral
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Posted - 2006.10.26 21:40:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Max Hardcase
Originally by: LaCoHa Edited by: LaCoHa on 26/10/2006 21:30:27
Originally by: Max Hardcase 15% damage/hp bonus to light and medium scout drones. Adjust drone bay a bit upwards and done.
I really like that idea. Would make it more powerful than a Vexor, but not over powered.
5 bonused ogre II's is too much for a BC to be able to pop out - and I say this as a Domi jockey, and the proud owner of 4 or 5 million drone sp's
maybe even 20% though.. cant be bothered to do the math :)
Well I figured that being a BC its half way between a cruiser and a battleship so the drone bonus should be roughly that as well.
Yeah. maybe 20% per level damage/hp and NO turret points - and I want a 5% resist bonus per level too. Dont want to whine, but rpr bonus vs. resist bonus is a no brainer. especially with the increase in hp's
"I just slaughtered 28 people in that game of Battlefield 2 and never died. Man my e-p33n feels huge." |
Temo Jick
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Posted - 2006.10.26 21:55:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: Temo Jick Some people have made the point that you donÆt fit BS sized guns/launchers on battlecruisers so you shouldnÆt get BS sized drones in them either.
Ishtar/Eos anyone?
Cruiser and BCruiser sized and shaped they may be but their own classes they do have, even if, to use a D&D term, prestege classess are all they are. Besides this just supports what I want, which is another 25m3 or more on that drone bay. If we were to accept those ships as president we can say that CCP have defied the BS sized weapon not for smaller ships convention to make up for drone ship dps deficiencies before and so there is no reason they cant do so again.
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