Originally by: Illuminaty

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IMO, they would have a lot more options for making drone boats be all they should be if there was a drone type limit.

By just relying on drone bay size to limit drone dps, they create the problem that they can't give drone reserves without having people use them to boost their DPS by using a full set of oversized drones.

Especially with utility drones that a lot of people would _like_ to fit in their drone bays, but simply can't unless they are flying a dominix that is over the magic '5x heavy' barrier where drone bay size stops having a relationship with ship dps.

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Originally by: Forger

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MED DRONES ANYONE?

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Originally by: Forger

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MED DRONES ANYONE?

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<3

Originally by: Logan Xerxes

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I'm yet to give hte myrmidon a go, but if this is all true then boost that *****a.

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Originally by: murder one

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Originally by: Logan Xerxes

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I'm yet to give hte myrmidon a go, but if this is all true then boost that *****a.

---

Most pilots I come across don't really 'fly' their ships. They just set orbit distance or run right up your nose and hit F1-F8. But if you come across someone who examines your turret loadout like I do, examines your drone count and type and your speed (mwd or ab?) etc. and exploits any of those weaknesses then your Myrmidon is toast.

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Originally by: Fred 104

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My setup in those fights was basically a 'giant vexor'.

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Originally by: Jessickah

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As a Gallente pilot who feels she will be flying nothing else than the Myrmidon after Kali hits, I think I would be happier if the bonii were changed to:

x% bonus to damage, hitpoints and mining yield of light and medium scout drones.

This would stop folk piling heavy drones into their drone bay when it is a cruiser sized ship ergo heavy drones were not intended for it, this would allow for the dronebay to be increased by 25m3 to 125 without fear of people chucking out five ogre II's... or they could leave it at 100m3 and I'd be happy too, thats enough for a set of medium attack drones and two sets of light utility drones.

And yes, I understand that both the Ishtar and the Eos can throw out five ogre II's, and that the Ishtar does comparable damage to a Dominix (perhaps more, you definitely get the full bonus with Ishtar as the bonus is tied to the Cruiser level and not the Heavy Assault Ships level... not all people have Gallente BS 5)... but the Myrmidon is _NOT_ a tech two ship. HACs are intended to be rare and their price reflects this, after the initial price surge of the new BCs, they will be common and reasonably priced. With five ogre IIs getting a dmg bonus, you'd find a huge decline in Ishtar pilots.

I believe that it'd be 'fixed' (read: better) with the changes I suggested. Its not a nerf, its a redefinition.

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Use medium drones and you will be able to have 5 in the air, and 5 as replacements. The alternative, having 5 heavy drones AND replacements, should appear overpowered to anyone. At least it does to me. But I think you gallente players have become used to being overpowered to be honest... sorry if it sounds like a flamebait, its NOT intended to be. Its just that gallente have become too strong compared to the rest for some time now, so when you get a ship that cant use battleship sized drones in masses, you think there is something wrong.

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Use medium drones and you will be able to have 5 in the air, and 5 as replacements. The alternative, having 5 heavy drones AND replacements, should appear overpowered to anyone. At least it does to me. But I think you gallente players have become used to being overpowered to be honest... sorry if it sounds like a flamebait, its NOT intended to be. Its just that gallente have become too strong compared to the rest for some time now, so when you get a ship that cant use battleship sized drones in masses, you think there is something wrong.

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Originally by: Quilan Ziller

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100 m3 gives almost as much freedom of choice as the Vexor. Really.
And it makes absolutely no sense to spend 7 times more ISK on a ship that has somewhat better tank,
worse handling, no gun bonuses, and same dronage properties.

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Originally by: Heelay Ashrum

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Use medium drones and you will be able to have 5 in the air, and 5 as replacements. The alternative, having 5 heavy drones AND replacements, should appear overpowered to anyone. At least it does to me. But I think you gallente players have become used to being overpowered to be honest... sorry if it sounds like a flamebait, its NOT intended to be. Its just that gallente have become too strong compared to the rest for some time now, so when you get a ship that cant use battleship sized drones in masses, you think there is something wrong.

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5 medium drones? so this ship should have dps of a vexor? u consider this ballanced?

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Quote:

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A 125 or 150 m3 drone bay would be optimal.
125 m3 is an interesting number. It will fit exactly one flight of heavys with no spares.
Heavys are no good against small ships like intys.
Thus, the pilot will have to face a choice of whether to go all out heavy, or to load some

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Originally by: 4rc4ng3L

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Quote:

---

A 125 or 150 m3 drone bay would be optimal.
125 m3 is an interesting number. It will fit exactly one flight of heavys with no spares.
Heavys are no good against small ships like intys.
Thus, the pilot will have to face a choice of whether to go all out heavy, or to load some

---

I agree 100% with this

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: 4rc4ng3L

---

Quote:

---

A 125 or 150 m3 drone bay would be optimal.
125 m3 is an interesting number. It will fit exactly one flight of heavys with no spares.
Heavys are no good against small ships like intys.
Thus, the pilot will have to face a choice of whether to go all out heavy, or to load some

---

I agree 100% with this

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Well, then help me understand how 5 Ogre II + 5 blasters + 3 nos is balanced? You would have some extreme damage output from that setup, and drain the opponent cap very fast as well. Not to mention dampeners or whatever else you want to use in the meds.

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Originally by: 4rc4ng3L

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Taking your example... it would just be one extra ogre II added to the current loadout...

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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It does sound abit low for a drone ship, but the dps of the dominix sounds overpowered. I think the devs gave it 100 m3 drone bay to allow it to field 4 heavy drones to put it somewhere in between. And if you add that you have 5 guns on top of that, the dps should be pretty good?

Yes, you have the problem of people killing the drones, but if you get 200 m3 drone bay, it would take a long time for people to kill all those drones. All while you have the dps of the dominix on them + 5 guns and possibly 3 nos as well. Thats what I feel would be overpowered. Think about it...

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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One Ogre II has about 100 dps, doesnt it

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Originally by: keepiru

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...
Personally, I dont think that further changes beside 125m3 and 6 turrets will be necessary - you'll have a powerful droneship that can do many things, yes, but you'll
...

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Originally by: keepiru

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1 less turret, and NO HYBRID DAMAGE BONUS - the brutix in fact has 7*1.25=8.75 turrets, so in fact that would be nearly 3 turrets less, or 31% less guns.

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: 4rc4ng3L

---

Quote:

---

A 125 or 150 m3 drone bay would be optimal.
125 m3 is an interesting number. It will fit exactly one flight of heavys with no spares.
Heavys are no good against small ships like intys.
Thus, the pilot will have to face a choice of whether to go all out heavy, or to load some

---

I agree 100% with this

---

Well, then help me understand how 5 Ogre II + 5 blasters + 3 nos is balanced? You would have some extreme damage output from that setup, and drain the opponent cap very fast as well. Not to mention dampeners or whatever else you want to use in the meds.

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Originally by: Quilan Ziller

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How many people, do you think, will be able to field Ogre IIs?
Have you checked the prices for them lately? They are stupidly expensive given how fragile they are.
Do you have any idea how many days it takes to skill for Ogre IIs?
At the very least 3 bloody weeks just to get Heavy Drones V - and that is if your char has good Memory.
Plus, the inevitable support skills (Gallente Spec, which is rank 5; Drone Navigation, Drone Sharpshooting,
Drone Durability which is rank 5, etc). And it does not make sense to spend your hard earned ISK on Ogre IIs
if you have not learned Drone Interfacing to at least IV.

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Originally by: Ithildin

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Jim McGregor, is about 550 dps overpowered on a battlecruiser? Or do you think that about 470 dps (with no replacement in case they die) sounds more appropriate for a battlecruiser?

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: Quilan Ziller

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How many people, do you think, will be able to field Ogre IIs?
Have you checked the prices for them lately? They are stupidly expensive given how fragile they are.
Do you have any idea how many days it takes to skill for Ogre IIs?
At the very least 3 bloody weeks just to get Heavy Drones V - and that is if your char has good Memory.
Plus, the inevitable support skills (Gallente Spec, which is rank 5; Drone Navigation, Drone Sharpshooting,
Drone Durability which is rank 5, etc). And it does not make sense to spend your hard earned ISK on Ogre IIs
if you have not learned Drone Interfacing to at least IV.

---

You dont balance the ships based on market prices for the modules, or the training required to use it to its maximum efficiency. Hopefully you can understand that.

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Originally by: Quilan Ziller

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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You dont balance the ships based on market prices for the modules, or the training required to use it to its maximum efficiency. Hopefully you can understand that.

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And... Why not?

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 11:57:15

Originally by: Ithildin

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Jim McGregor, is about 550 dps overpowered on a battlecruiser? Or do you think that about 470 dps (with no replacement in case they die) sounds more appropriate for a battlecruiser?

---

475 dps from drones + 5 blasters with damage mods makes it 550? Seems to me that you are keeping these figures very, very low to boost your gallentean wishes instead of thinking about game balance.

But it doesnt matter. I mean, even if the boat had like 1500 dps, alot of gallente players would say "Thats balanced, because drones can be destroyed!". I dont buy it. We might all be blind to the other side since most of us players focus on one/two races, but in the end, we have to think of game balance.

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 11:57:15

Originally by: Ithildin

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Jim McGregor, is about 550 dps overpowered on a battlecruiser? Or do you think that about 470 dps (with no replacement in case they die) sounds more appropriate for a battlecruiser?

---

475 dps from drones + 5 blasters with damage mods makes it 550? Seems to me that you are keeping these figures very, very low to boost your gallentean wishes instead of thinking about game balance.

But it doesnt matter. I mean, even if the boat had like 1500 dps, alot of gallente players would say "Thats balanced, because drones can be destroyed!". I dont buy it. We might all be blind to the other side since most of us players focus on one/two races, but in the end, we have to think of game balance.

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

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475 dps from drones + 5 blasters with damage mods makes it 550? Seems to me that you are keeping these figures very, very low to boost your gallentean wishes instead of thinking about game balance.

But it doesnt matter. I mean, even if the boat had like 1500 dps, alot of gallente players would say "Thats balanced, because drones can be destroyed!". I dont buy it. We might all be blind to the other side since most of us players focus on one/two races, but in the end, we have to think of game balance.

---

Originally by: murder one

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Who woulda thought that Caldari would come out on top? I don't think that's ever happened before.

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: Quilan Ziller

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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You dont balance the ships based on market prices for the modules, or the training required to use it to its maximum efficiency. Hopefully you can understand that.

---

And... Why not?

---

Meh. To start with, market price changes with supply/demand. The expensive modules are expensive because they are the best. Next patch, ccp could alter something and make them suck. Prices drop. So...nerf/boost ship with the changes? Dont think so. Its taking care of itself since wallet decides. Rich people have better modules, and better ships.
Second of all, lets say you have a gallente ship that takes a year to skill for, but its much better than what the other races have (they only have to train 6 months for their ships). What happens after a year? The gallente ship goes around killing everything, while the other races cant do anything about it because their skills are maxed. Ooops, they picked the wrong race. Start over?
On the other hand, if you release the ships, balanced to be able to take eachother down, and try to make a skill system that is somewhat balanced in time and training to max the skills out, you get balance on both fronts. CCP has taken this route, and im sure you can see the advantages of it. There is no Axe of Grinding in Eve, which you get as High Warlord. Thats something very, very good.

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Originally by: Jago X

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got completely annihilated by a minnie BC (which seems pretty overpowered i must say).Jago

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Originally by: Ithildin

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To put it straight: backup drones are absolutely necessary. That you must agree to.

Now, to restate the question. Given that estimating what the typical damage output from the guns are likely to be, do you think that the ambiguous level of 475dps (plus 5 unbonused guns) to be unreasonable considering that there is no way, what so ever, to increase this damage?

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Originally by: Quilan Ziller

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...stuff ..

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Originally by: Jago X

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Edited by: Jago X on 26/10/2006 12:49:29

Originally by: Quilan Ziller

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...stuff ..

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Ziller are you really saying that we should balance a T2 fitted gun BC to a Drone BC with T1 drones because ... they're expensive?? really that is quite wrong.

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Originally by: Quilan Ziller

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Originally by: Jago X

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Edited by: Jago X on 26/10/2006 12:49:29

Originally by: Quilan Ziller

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...stuff ..

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Ziller are you really saying that we should balance a T2 fitted gun BC to a Drone BC with T1 drones because ... they're expensive?? really that is quite wrong.

---

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Originally by: Thunderbird Anthares

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ill just add my 2 cents....
myrmidon (change name to myrmiddon plz? )

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Originally by: Patch86

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Originally by: Thunderbird Anthares

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ill just add my 2 cents....
myrmidon (change name to myrmiddon plz? )

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No.

Myrmidon

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Originally by: Thunderbird Anthares

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Originally by: Patch86

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Originally by: Thunderbird Anthares

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ill just add my 2 cents....
myrmidon (change name to myrmiddon plz? )

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No.

Myrmidon

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awwww
i just keep typing it with double D for some reason,dont ask me why

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: Ithildin

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To put it straight: backup drones are absolutely necessary. That you must agree to.

Now, to restate the question. Given that estimating what the typical damage output from the guns are likely to be, do you think that the ambiguous level of 475dps (plus 5 unbonused guns) to be unreasonable considering that there is no way, what so ever, to increase this damage?

---

I really wish I had NB's excel sheet to fall back on here, and also compare the damage and tanking for the other battlecruisers. Before Ive ran the numbers, its difficult to compare. But I can say this... the gallente drone boat should be balanced to the rest. If it needs boosting, then of course it should be.

---

Originally by: Zarch AlDain

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: Ithildin

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To put it straight: backup drones are absolutely necessary. That you must agree to.

Now, to restate the question. Given that estimating what the typical damage output from the guns are likely to be, do you think that the ambiguous level of 475dps (plus 5 unbonused guns) to be unreasonable considering that there is no way, what so ever, to increase this damage?

---

I really wish I had NB's excel sheet to fall back on here, and also compare the damage and tanking for the other battlecruisers. Before Ive ran the numbers, its difficult to compare. But I can say this... the gallente drone boat should be balanced to the rest. If it needs boosting, then of course it should be.

---

Jim, what do you think of the specific suggestion I and a few others have made:

Allow a larger drone bay (150 or 200 m3) but restrict the drone bonus to light and medium drones.

Surely that would answer the worries of both sides in that it can fit a full rack of tech 2 mediums and replace them if needed - but at the same time cannot fit a full set of heavies and use them at full effectiveness.

---

Originally by: keepiru

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Edited by: keepiru on 26/10/2006 14:51:47
Edited by: keepiru on 26/10/2006 14:51:20
Numbers for the drake must be wrong, it tops out @ 400dps with heavy IIs, you must be missing the RoF bonus. Sounds about right, 25% rof adds the 33% dps youre missing.

Which btw means ~600 with assaults, since they do about 50% more dps :)

Brutix and Harbinger should do even more, my 2 ion/5 electron fit does like 500ish just from guns with 2 magstabs and AM, and my skills arent maxed.

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Originally by: keepiru

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Which would give it 675dps in assault mode

How much DPS does a Myrmidon with Ogre IIs and damage mods get again? 4 and 5 drones plz, mr slave ^^

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Originally by: keepiru

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Edited by: keepiru on 26/10/2006 15:40:37
Ok, what about with 5 heavys but no dmg mod?

Assume that the bonus to drone dmg is replaced with a +dronebay like the Eos. Say 100 base, 25m3 per level, no dmg bonus. And 6 turrets.

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Originally by: murder one

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I just got booted from the test server, but before I did I had a chance to use the Myr in a number of configs against every type of other BC. Boy was I impressed!!!

Impressed with the Drake, impressed with the Hurricane, impressed with the Harbinger... but the Myrmidon f#cking sucks.

Setups I tested and what happened with each:

All nos highs (4 med, 4 small), "standard mids" (ab/web/scram/med injector, turret disruptor or cap recharger, another scram, w/e in 5th mid), 2x med t2 rep, 2x t2 eanm, internal force field DC. 4x Ogres in the drone bay.

What happened: all my drones were popped within the first minute of the fight, even with me trying to pull them in before they popped. Every opponent simply webbed a drone, killed it and moved to the next one. It's almost as if they *KNEW* I didn't have any in reserve! Oh wait, the Myrmidon only has 100m3 drone bay. Of course they knew. End result: dead Myrmidon. Vs every type of other BC. Every BC can simply do more DPS than a dual rep Myrmidon tank w/ BC4 can handle. I even had half my cap charges left over when I popped. It was that bad.

5x T2 Med electron setup. 3x small nos, std. mids (mwd this time) dual rep tank, 4x ogres the first few times, and 10x hammerhead2s the second bunch of tests.

What happened: died every time. First the Ogres were killed right away, then I didn't have enough DPS to break anyone's tank. This was repeated vs every type of ship, except for the Drake, who's tank was so f#cking huge that the pilot didn't even care about my drones. Then I tried it with 5x mediums. The DPS was so **** poor w/ 5 mediums and no damage bonus to the guns that they didn't bother killing my drones. I still died.

5x Ions, 3x small nos, std mids w/ mwd, 1 medium rep, 2x eanm t2, dc, mag stab 2, 4x ogres.

What happened: Still got raped. They just killed my Ogres. Then I still didn't have enough DPS with 5 Ion IIs (medium) to break their tanks before I was dead. Still had cap charges left when I popped. The tank simply isn't there. It's like it needs a rep bonus or something. OH RIGHT, it already has one. Silly me.

Ions, no nos, ab and standard mids, small rep, 1600 tungsten plate, 2x eanm t2 and best named DC w/ 4x Ogres and then 10x hammerhead t2.

What happened: This thing goes 170m/sec WITH THE AFTERBURNER ON. Lol? Even when I webbed people, they just webbed me back and scooted out of range of my blasters. They killed my drones. I died eventually. Rep bonus on the small rep was funny to watch as I slowly died with the plate. 170m/sec w/ AB? what a joke.

1600 plate setup as above but with t2 rails (medium).

What happened: they orbited me at 12-13km with their ABs on and I didn't have enough tracking (no tracking bonus to hybrids you see) to hit them. They killed my drones. I died.

Drone rigs arn't going to fix what is wrong with the Myr. Even with THREE +10% drone hitpoint rigs installed it won't help. Combat is just too long. Ships have too much HP built in as a buffer while they take out your drones, even without fitting plates. It's so easy to focus on drones now that their HP relative to your own ship's HP are diminished.

The Myrmidon doesn't do enough DPS, even with hybrid damage rigs installed (there arn't any drone damage rigs for regular drones, only for sentry drones, which are worthless for pvp) the Myrmidon doesn't do enough DPS to kill something before it's drones are popped.

The best way to balance the Myrmidon at this point is to do this: skill up Caldari Cruiser and buy a f#cking Drake. Who woulda thought that Caldari would come out on top? I don't think that's ever happened before.

---

Originally by: Ithildin

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Originally by: keepiru

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Edited by: keepiru on 26/10/2006 15:40:37
Ok, what about with 5 heavys but no dmg mod?

Assume that the bonus to drone dmg is replaced with a +dronebay like the Eos. Say 100 base, 25m3 per level, no dmg bonus. And 6 turrets.

---

317 drone damage (at best). /me cringes.

At least the Eos has adequate turret hardpoints and bonuses.

---

Originally by: Heelay Ashrum

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Use medium drones and you will be able to have 5 in the air, and 5 as replacements. The alternative, having 5 heavy drones AND replacements, should appear overpowered to anyone. At least it does to me. But I think you gallente players have become used to being overpowered to be honest... sorry if it sounds like a flamebait, its NOT intended to be. Its just that gallente have become too strong compared to the rest for some time now, so when you get a ship that cant use battleship sized drones in masses, you think there is something wrong.

---

5 medium drones? so this ship should have dps of a vexor? u consider this ballanced?

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Originally by: Tannach

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Anyone tried 4x sentry drones from a long range, fit the ship like a true drone boat (optimal range rigs, drone links etc) and snipe using the thing?

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Originally by: Deathbarrage

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Originally by: murder one

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Stuff I said...

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prolly not smart either to go up against multiple opponents in a myrmidon

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Originally by: TorpSpammer ExtraordinR

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tried a brutix vs the new BCs ?

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: keepiru

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Which would give it 675dps in assault mode

How much DPS does a Myrmidon with Ogre IIs and damage mods get again? 4 and 5 drones plz, mr slave ^^

---

With full gank, 3 damage mods and tech 2 electrons... 750 dps with void, 650 dps with null. You dont get that much effect from it since you dont have a damage bonus to the guns to start with for this ship. Thats with 4 drones. With 5 (which you cant fit), you get 842 dps with void, 741 with null. So every heavy drone adds about 90 dps.

And its purely theoretical anyway. You cant fit a tank with 3 damage mods... :) And they lowered the damage of all t2 ammo, so these figures are already wrong. But still. :)

---

Originally by: Quilan Ziller

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Originally by: Forger

---

MED DRONES ANYONE?

---

We already have Vexor for that.
I like my Vexor.
But Myrmidon is supposed to outclass the Vexor.
Right now it does not.

---

Originally by: Abdalion

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Originally by: Jebidus Skari

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What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?

---

Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.

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Originally by: Centurin

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I dont really understand you, Jim. You got your Drake. It pwns every other BC.

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Originally by: Centurin

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I dont really understand you, Jim. You got your Drake. It pwns every other BC. What are you doing here? Do you have something against drone boats? I think you need to fly a Myrmidon on the test server. As far as I know, the Drake does more damage than a Caracal. So, is it so wrong so ask that the Myrmidon do more damage than a Vexor? Drones aren't the I-win button you seem to think they are. ECM is what made drone boats great, and that's getting a major nerf. There is no denying that the Myrmidon needs a boost. Its obvious. I mean a Nevy Issue Vexor has the same drone bay. Gimme a break.

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Originally by: keepiru

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Originally by: Centurin

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I dont really understand you, Jim. You got your Drake. It pwns every other BC.

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Afaik, Jim flies Matari ships.

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Originally by: keepiru

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Originally by: Centurin

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I dont really understand you, Jim. You got your Drake. It pwns every other BC.

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Afaik, Jim flies Matari ships.

---

Damn straight. :) Always been a sucker for selecting the most nerfed race in these kind of games for some reason. I was a mage in WoW, always getting pwned by almost everybody else but warriors too... its something in my nature to pick the worst it seems.

But they are FUN, thats what matters. And they arent too bad these days.. :)

---

Originally by: Ithildin

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He cares because he cares for game balance.

Frankly, Jim is a lot more reasonable opponent in these discussions than other, less civil, anti-drone fanatics are.

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Originally by: Ithildin

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He cares because he cares for game balance.

Frankly, Jim is a lot more reasonable opponent in these discussions than other, less civil, anti-drone fanatics are.

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Originally by: Tiuwaz

---

for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 19:09:42

Originally by: Centurin

---

I dont really understand you, Jim. You got your Drake. It pwns every other BC. What are you doing here? Do you have something against drone boats? I think you need to fly a Myrmidon on the test server. As far as I know, the Drake does more damage than a Caracal. So, is it so wrong so ask that the Myrmidon do more damage than a Vexor? Drones aren't the I-win button you seem to think they are. ECM is what made drone boats great, and that's getting a major nerf. There is no denying that the Myrmidon needs a boost. Its obvious. I mean a Nevy Issue Vexor has the same drone bay. Gimme a break.

---

I dont fly caldari. I might start when the Drake shows up though. :) No, seriously, if its overpowered, it will get nerfed before release (hopefully!). And if myrmidon is underpowered, it will get boosted too.

When im running the numbers, it does look like the Myrmidon isnt getting the boost up from the t1 cruisers that the minmatar gets. Hurricane has much higher dps than the rupture, but Myrmidon only gains about 100 dps up from the Vexor even in full gank setup with t2 ammo (old stats, I dont know the new stats).

So devs should take a look at it and see if they feel its underpowered compared to the rest imo, with the new t2 ammo and all. I dont hate drone ships. I do hate gallente being better than the rest though, because I want game balance, and when you ask people what ships they recommend in the game, the answer is always the same - gallente. In a balanced game, you would get different opinions. Gallente is VERY strong in Eve, while minmatar and amarr have been falling behind the rest imo.

I do feel that its mostly on battleship level that gallente are uber strong though, and its mainly because of the ecm dominix which now is nerfed, and the range of t2 ammo for the blasterthron compared to autocannons (which might be nerfed, I dont know the new range for large ammo). So things will probably work out fine in the future, I hope. Its looking better for the other races these days I think.

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Originally by: Grimpak

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ok so how about this:

reduce to 6 hislots (6 turrets)
give more lows and meds
increase drone bay

change bonus to:

+5% hybrid damage per level
+1 scout/medium drone control per level


reasoning? the myrmidon becomes a unique drone ship. it is not a vexor, since it dishes more damage than him.
it is not a domi since it gives out more drones.

instead of giving a dmg bonus, why not increasing the ship's ability to field drones?

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Originally by: Centurin

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It wouldn't be unique. It'd just be a Guardian Vexor.

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Originally by: Tiuwaz

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for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons

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Originally by: Swiftness

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It's the gallente cyclone, yes ? cruiser-like dps, a bit more slots and hp ....

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Originally by: Tiuwaz

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for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons

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Originally by: murder one

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Originally by: Ithildin

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He cares because he cares for game balance.

Frankly, Jim is a lot more reasonable opponent in these discussions than other, less civil, anti-drone fanatics are.

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Well that's not the way he was coming across. Making the case for a larger drone bay for the Myr is like beating my head against a brick wall.

It's so clear to me, I don't see why other people don't get it. I've used all four BCs. The other three are great. The Myr I can kill every time with any of the other three, without even trying.

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Tech 1 Tech 2 Typical Drone Complement Damage highs/bonus
------ Ishkur(1mil) Light 3/single
Arbitrator(5m) Curse, Pilgrim (15m) Medium+Light 3/none
Vexor (5m) Ishtar (18m) Medium+Light/All 4/3/single
Myrmidon (35m) ------ ------ 5/none
------ Eos* (60m) All* 7/single
Dominix (61m) ------ All 6/single
Typhoon*(65m) ------ All* 8/single
*Indicates no drone damage bonus, however contains room for more than 5 heavies.

Originally by: Max Hardcase

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15% damage/hp bonus to light and medium scout drones.
Adjust drone bay a bit upwards and done.

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Originally by: LaCoHa

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Edited by: LaCoHa on 26/10/2006 21:30:27

Originally by: Max Hardcase

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15% damage/hp bonus to light and medium scout drones.
Adjust drone bay a bit upwards and done.

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I really like that idea. Would make it more powerful than a Vexor, but not over powered.

5 bonused ogre II's is too much for a BC to be able to pop out - and I say this as a Domi jockey, and the proud owner of 4 or 5 million drone sp's

maybe even 20% though.. cant be bothered to do the math :)

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Originally by: Temo Jick

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Some people have made the point that you donÆt fit BS sized guns/launchers on battlecruisers so you shouldnÆt get BS sized drones in them either.

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Originally by: Max Hardcase

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Originally by: LaCoHa

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Edited by: LaCoHa on 26/10/2006 21:30:27

Originally by: Max Hardcase

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15% damage/hp bonus to light and medium scout drones.
Adjust drone bay a bit upwards and done.

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I really like that idea. Would make it more powerful than a Vexor, but not over powered.

5 bonused ogre II's is too much for a BC to be able to pop out - and I say this as a Domi jockey, and the proud owner of 4 or 5 million drone sp's

maybe even 20% though.. cant be bothered to do the math :)

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Well I figured that being a BC its half way between a cruiser and a battleship so the drone bonus should be roughly that as well.

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Originally by: Hllaxiu

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Originally by: Temo Jick

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Some people have made the point that you donÆt fit BS sized guns/launchers on battlecruisers so you shouldnÆt get BS sized drones in them either.

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Ishtar/Eos anyone?

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Originally by: keepiru

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Which btw means ~600 with assaults, since they do about 50% more dps :)

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Originally by: Matyae

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Edited by: Matyae on 26/10/2006 23:18:34

Originally by: keepiru

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Which btw means ~600 with assaults, since they do about 50% more dps :)

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Oh. 50% more dps ? Could you show me how you got this number please ? To me it seems much more like 25%. :)

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Originally by: LaCoHa

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Edited by: LaCoHa on 26/10/2006 23:23:20
I am on test server right now - and i think i have found a nice setup. Albeit a bit weird.

Hi: 4 x 150mm II. one Med Nos.

mids: 2 x cap booster web, web, scram (the 5th slot on this ship is damn near useless imo, please move it to a 6th low)

lows: 2 x mar II, 2 x Eanm II, 1600mm tungsten.

fn thing is HARD to break.

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Originally by: Matyae

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Heavy missiles = 150 damage, not 125.

Heavy : 150dmg/12s = 12.5dps
Heavy assault : 100dmg/6.4s = 15.625dps

15.625/12.5 = 1.25 = 25%

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Originally by: murder one

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How the f#ck do you move around with no AB/MWD and a 1600 plate installed? I put a 1600 tungsten on and **WITH** an afterburner did 170m/sec. How are you even going to get a target in web range to keep it from getting away? Are you planning on having a cov ops for a warp in point at 5km every time?

And with the dual 150s and antimatter, GL getting over 8km of range out of them. What happens when all your drones are dead? Making the enemy take 10 minutes to kill you != victory.

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Originally by: keepiru

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Huh, don't ask me how I managed to look up heavy missiles twice while on SISI and get 125 both times. *shrug*

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Originally by: LaCoHa

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Edited by: LaCoHa on 27/10/2006 00:09:46

Originally by: murder one

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How the f#ck do you move around with no AB/MWD and a 1600 plate installed? I put a 1600 tungsten on and **WITH** an afterburner did 170m/sec. How are you even going to get a target in web range to keep it from getting away? Are you planning on having a cov ops for a warp in point at 5km every time?

And with the dual 150s and antimatter, GL getting over 8km of range out of them. What happens when all your drones are dead? Making the enemy take 10 minutes to kill you != victory.

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yeah yeah. the drone bay issue will be solved. And i have modified it to use 3 MARII's, and no plate. +cap battery.

when is the last time you warped into a belt to kill some dude, and were not at 10k or less already?

you are either on top of him - and its go time, or he is 50k out, and you both just warp away.

0m or 150k.

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Originally by: Kruel

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Edited by: Kruel on 27/10/2006 04:09:31
TBH the Myr is more like a slightly upgraded vexor. Heck I bet the Vexor can out-dps the Myr with it's hybrid bonus. Not that anyone fits medium guns on a Vexor though.

If the Myr is supposed to tank, it should have an extra low and more drone space to keep the waves coming.

Oh yeah and a bit off topic but I just lost a bunch of tech2 drones tonight because they wouldn't return to the bay. I'd be nice if they fixed that.

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Originally by: murder one

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Sounds like your opponents didn't know what they were doing.

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Originally by: Tannach

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How about doubling the hps of drones? That is the same as having back-up drones in your drone-bay.

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Originally by: Lanielle

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I tend to agree that it needs a bigger drone bay. It's just too easy to kill the drones making the ship useless there on.

However i was having great success against turret ships last night with:

6x med diminishing nos, 2x whatever (i used dual 150mms)
1x MWD, 1x 20km scram, 3x tracking disruptors
5x nanos

It went about 2km/s, you can orbit ouside of webrange whilst sucking them dry with the nos and letting your drones beat them down.

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Originally by: Izo Azlion

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Originally by: murder one

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Sounds like your opponents didn't know what they were doing.

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Then, because the OP died to every other BC, I guess he didnt know what he was doing either.

Just because you die, doesnt mean your clueless.

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Originally by: murder one

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Nah. Plenty of 25-35km away stuff where my Brutix MWDs and nabs him with my 20km scram. Same with my Mega and Vexor(but we're discussing BCs here). And further more, if they're not in web range your setup is so slow that a Domi w/ no AB can simply run off until he's out of scram range and then jump. It's a completely crap setup for attacking.

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Originally by: LaCoHa

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Originally by: murder one

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Nah. Plenty of 25-35km away stuff where my Brutix MWDs and nabs him with my 20km scram. Same with my Mega and Vexor(but we're discussing BCs here). And further more, if they're not in web range your setup is so slow that a Domi w/ no AB can simply run off until he's out of scram range and then jump. It's a completely crap setup for attacking.

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Yes I realize you were just goofing around w/ setups, but once you get a viable setup pvp wise on the ship w/ either plate/mwd or no plate/ab for some decent speed, it just doesn't have the chops to compete atm. On a completely different note... HOORAY FOR STAB NERF!!! \o/

the (border line ridiculous albeit) setup i was using with three rprs and no plate allows the beast to move at somewhere around the 180-200ms mark.

The ship needs some changes, but like with any ship - the right setup, and maybe more importantly - picking your targets properly, will almost always ensure success.

...because I said so.

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Originally by: Johnny Bravo

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I would suggest to increase dronebay on Myrmidon to 200m3 but DECREASE drone bonus to 5% per lvl if its possible. If its not possible from the programming POV, than we can drop drone bonus alltogether and replace it with hybrid damage bonus and _slight_ increase in PG.
Btw, comparing Myrmidon with Ishtar is not fair - all of us know what Ishtar is overpowered HAC. All other races would also like to have a HAC with damage of BS - but sadly no luck atm.

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Originally by: Johnny Bravo

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All other races would also like to have a HAC with damage of BS - but sadly no luck atm.

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Originally by: Aphotic Raven

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Ok so we've all seen the absolute power of an ECM dominix, without blasters (vampadomi) it has enough DPS to kill you eventually while keeping you jammed and in place comfortably, The new ECM Changes may nerf this a bit by making it a less viable ECM platform.

Gallente cruisers have crap midslots so suck at ECM.

The ships getting buffed up for ECM are all caldari, the blackbird is getting love as well as its counterparts, so ecm will be more viable, fair enough....

Why not fix the myrmidon this way? Give it ECM Bonus's and enough midslots to use them...
Or is ECM only for the caldari now?

Gallente will want some ECM boats and i for one love using it, i havent used the myrmidon but with good ecm/drone capabilitys it could be quite an effective ship both solo in and gangs in a support role...

Let me know what you think, and afterall, theres only so much you can do with drones, putting the myrmidon between vexor and dominix will just make it crap... give us 2 advantages and we'll love it!

I'm gonna trust CCP to fix it sooner or later, they havent let me down yet, so lets try and be constructive
thanks

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Originally by: Pattern Clarc

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Originally by: Aphotic Raven

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Ok so we've all seen the absolute power of an ECM dominix, without blasters (vampadomi) it has enough DPS to kill you eventually while keeping you jammed and in place comfortably, The new ECM Changes may nerf this a bit by making it a less viable ECM platform.

Gallente cruisers have crap midslots so suck at ECM.

The ships getting buffed up for ECM are all caldari, the blackbird is getting love as well as its counterparts, so ecm will be more viable, fair enough....

Why not fix the myrmidon this way? Give it ECM Bonus's and enough midslots to use them...
Or is ECM only for the caldari now?

Gallente will want some ECM boats and i for one love using it, i havent used the myrmidon but with good ecm/drone capabilitys it could be quite an effective ship both solo in and gangs in a support role...

Let me know what you think, and afterall, theres only so much you can do with drones, putting the myrmidon between vexor and dominix will just make it crap... give us 2 advantages and we'll love it!

I'm gonna trust CCP to fix it sooner or later, they havent let me down yet, so lets try and be constructive
thanks

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The caldari can keep there ECM, I wanna drone boat battlecruiser that can launch 6 drones!!

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Originally by: Alkeena

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To recap:
Suicidal Myrm fitting w/4 Ogre II: 719 DPS <- Current state of affairs
Fair Hurricane fitting: 774 DPS
Suicidal Myrm fitting w/5 Ogre II: 814 DPS

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