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Tabius
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Posted - 2003.11.04 23:42:00 -
[1]
I've based my character on the ability to mine and reprocess and trade.
If you think it's cheap that I use a Battleship to mine with, then give me an alternative...
If you want to mine large amounts of ore, what's the best ship? It's a battleship PERIOD. There's no other option. Should there be? Yes. But until CCP comes out with a 'mining ship', miners have no choice.
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.11.04 23:52:00 -
[2]
BATTLEship
Go gank someone.
On a side-note, I think that mining in the starter systems and around (3-4 jps) people not in the nubi corps should be taxed for what they mine by the sovereignty the systems belong to. This is only logical.
75% sounds nice.
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Aethelgrin
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Posted - 2003.11.05 00:00:00 -
[3]
I have no problem with you mining with a battleship.
The Empire might, though. Go do it outside empire space.
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Chucky
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Posted - 2003.11.05 00:00:00 -
[4]
Exactly! Unless they release a cheap ship with a large drone bay and 10-14 turrents or a very high % mining bonus to get the equivalent, people will continue to use bships.
Resource collection is too slow, not fun, has to be done by somebody! and is boring as hell.
... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture. |
Ezra Vouland
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Posted - 2003.11.05 00:10:00 -
[5]
Pshhhhh i mine as much and more then most BBs in my Thorax, that did only cost 5 mil and my 5 Miner 2s that you can get for 400k a peice. Lots of mining drones too...
CARRRE BARE STARRRRRRRE
They call me trash... TrashGUY |
Aethelgrin
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Posted - 2003.11.05 00:19:00 -
[6]
I mine in a Stabber, and I don't find the process dull at all. It requires constant attention, constant vigilance, and a bit of luck (because I don't use secure cans).
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.05 00:20:00 -
[7]
 Quote:
Exactly! Unless they release a cheap ship with a large drone bay and 10-14 turrents or a very high % mining bonus to get the equivalent, people will continue to use bships.
Resource collection is too slow, not fun, has to be done by somebody! and is boring as hell.
I wasn't aware the Amarr battleships had 10-14 turrets.
From a cost analysis standpoint, a tier 2 battleship isn't worth the increased initial investment over a Thorax. To receive the investment back through the 3 extra mining lasers an Apocalypse carries and begin earning profit over the cost of a Thorax with 3 mining lasers isn't timely enough to to justify the 90m+ isk price tag over the Thorax.
Maybe when a little risk gets added to mining, people might not be so willing to use them. Given an option that includes dedicated miners for deep space mining, I'd never choose a battleship over a cruiser. For the simple reason a battleship outfitted for mining is a liability while a Thorax or a Rupture is an acceptable loss.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Tabius
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Posted - 2003.11.05 00:24:00 -
[8]
I'd wager that most of the Eve Economy is based on strip miners in empire space.
I'd bet most of your BATTLEships were made from minerals from people like me.
I supply about 100 million in minerals every week or two into the economy. I'm fairly sure that it's not coming from newbies mining scordite in velators...
and all the millions upon millions of tritanium in your ships isn't coming from bistot mining...
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.11.05 00:26:00 -
[9]
Quote:
I wasn't aware the Amarr battleships had 10-14 turrets.
From a cost analysis standpoint, a tier 2 battleship isn't worth the increased initial investment over a Thorax. To receive the investment back through the 3 extra mining lasers an Apocalypse carries and begin earning profit over the cost of a Thorax with 3 mining lasers isn't timely enough to to justify the 90m+ isk price tag over the Thorax.
Sorry, this argument only makes sense if you ONLY use the battleship for mining. Which nobody would ever do - hence the argument makes no sense.
If I upgrade to an Apocalypse from a Thorax not only do I increase my ability to mine, but also to hunt NPCs and defend against PC attacks. In other words, I see an improvement in ALL areas of the game, making it well worth the 90M+ isk price tag.
Anyone who says Battleships shouldn't be used to mine probably never mines anyway because it's an idiotic statement. Successful mining relies on turret hardpoints, CPU capacity, cargo space, drone space, and defensive capabilities. Obviously upgrading to a battleship is wise for anyone who spends a good deal of time mining - and upgrading into a ship which ALSO has other functions such as an NPC hunter makes all the more sense.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Ezra Vouland
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Posted - 2003.11.05 00:30:00 -
[10]
1 Apoc defending with 10 Thoraxs is a cheap efective way to mine....
But then again who ever thinks of any sort of strategy in this game...
But of course you "NEED" (ding ding ding ding.. magic word of the day) 11 Apocs 
They call me trash... TrashGUY |
Chucky
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Posted - 2003.11.05 00:31:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Chucky on 05/11/2003 00:39:55
... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture. |
Aethelgrin
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Posted - 2003.11.05 00:34:00 -
[12]
Perhaps that is to what CCP refers when they say progress is too fast. The accrual of wealth could be what is too fast, and by preventing BS strip mining in empire space, wealth creation will slow and the economy will have balance.
Now, I don't know if the economy has balance now. I don't have all the relevant economic statistics. As far as I know, only one MMOG has bothered to collect the relevant economic statistics to help govern their economy, but that's SWG and they cut most of the economy out of their game during beta.
I would, however, dispute your claim that a battleship is the best ship with which to mine large amounts of ore. It is less than twice as effective as the best mining cruiser, for a far greater cost. If you're mining Scordite with your 8 Miner II's, it will still take some 400 hours of mining that increased yeild to make back your capital investment. Every hour before that 400th hour, you're behind where you would have been had you kept mining with your Thorax. Have you really spent 50 8-hour days mining with your BS?
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Hakera
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Posted - 2003.11.05 00:34:00 -
[13]
How about no miners/harvies allowed in BS, and restrict them to cruisers or less only? That still leaves the good old Thorax 
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Ezra Vouland
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Posted - 2003.11.05 00:36:00 -
[14]
Quote:
Amarr Apoc bship has 8, a mining ship would have to mount more before i'd consider it. I'd like to see the crak head math that shows 5 miner 2's are faster then 8 miner 2's.
My 5 miner 2s at ming 5/5 and 10 harveys with ming dorne lvl 5 might otmine u in an apoc with 8 miner 2s.... but who knows...
They call me trash... TrashGUY |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.11.05 00:40:00 -
[15]
Quote:
I would, however, dispute your claim that a battleship is the best ship with which to mine large amounts of ore. It is less than twice as effective as the best mining cruiser, for a far greater cost. If you're mining Scordite with your 8 Miner II's, it will still take some 400 hours of mining that increased yeild to make back your capital investment. Every hour before that 400th hour, you're behind where you would have been had you kept mining with your Thorax. Have you really spent 50 8-hour days mining with your BS?
*sigh* You're using the same logic as Jash.
You don't need to "make back your investment" in order to make it worth mining in a battleship - because the battleship has many other functions which make it worth the pricetag anyway.
The Apocalypse doesn't have to be the best mining rig in order to be worth the 90M+ it costs, it just happens that this is one of the many benefits of the ship making it well worth purchasing AND using to mine.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.11.05 00:42:00 -
[16]
Quote:
My 5 miner 2s at ming 5/5 and 10 harveys with ming dorne lvl 5 might otmine u in an apoc with 8 miner 2s.... but who knows...
Skills don't have anything to do with ships. If YOU were to mine in an Apocalypse you would beat yourself. Hence the Apocalypse is a better mining ship. It has room for 8-9 drones, which is all most people can use anyway, and even with 8 CU Vapors mines faster than a Thorax with 5 Miner IIs.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Aethelgrin
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Posted - 2003.11.05 00:47:00 -
[17]
The argument here pertains to mining with a BS in empire space - and possibly in high-sec space. Using a BS to mine in low-sec space (even 0.3-0.4) seems a reasonable use of a BS. You can mine at an increased rate (equivalent to a cruiser outfitted for 1.0 mining), and still defend yourself and your hauler.
I'm not saying no one should be allowed to mine in a BS. I am willing to concede that the empire may well not want huge strip mining operations going on deep in their space.
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.11.05 00:57:00 -
[18]
Quote:
I'm not saying no one should be allowed to mine in a BS. I am willing to concede that the empire may well not want huge strip mining operations going on deep in their space.
Well, I see no justification whatsoever for any steps to remove battleship mining from Empire space. There's plenty of Ore to go around, and it's not like mining Scordite is a path to immediate fame and fortune regardless of what kind of ship you're using to do it.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.05 01:17:00 -
[19]
Quote:
Quote:
I would, however, dispute your claim that a battleship is the best ship with which to mine large amounts of ore. It is less than twice as effective as the best mining cruiser, for a far greater cost. If you're mining Scordite with your 8 Miner II's, it will still take some 400 hours of mining that increased yeild to make back your capital investment. Every hour before that 400th hour, you're behind where you would have been had you kept mining with your Thorax. Have you really spent 50 8-hour days mining with your BS?
*sigh* You're using the same logic as Jash.
You don't need to "make back your investment" in order to make it worth mining in a battleship - because the battleship has many other functions which make it worth the pricetag anyway.
The Apocalypse doesn't have to be the best mining rig in order to be worth the 90M+ it costs, it just happens that this is one of the many benefits of the ship making it well worth purchasing AND using to mine.
Veruna you're ignoring 2 facts.
One is that there are people who specifically bought battleships to mine in.
The second is that a battleship outfitted for mining in dangerous areas (especially any area open to attack from another player) is a liability. Webbed and warp scrambled with only launchers to defend itself (if you happen to be mining in a bship that has leftover launcher slots), you will lose that bship to a determined attack from a few scant Caracals. Even a handful Kestrels, piloted by those who know what they're doing, loaded with cruise missiles wouldn't have a massively difficult time taking down the bship armed only with mining lasers and 2 launchers.
That is a liability for a ship with a price tag that large. And the only people for whom empire space is safe from that type of risk are those in the NPC corporations. Because any real corporation has the added danger of war being declared on them and attacked by a fully armed battleship where they can't even hope to be saved by splash damage and Concord.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Lottsa Pox
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Posted - 2003.11.05 01:29:00 -
[20]
Quote:
I've based my character on the ability to mine and reprocess and trade.
If you think it's cheap that I use a Battleship to mine with, then give me an alternative...
If you want to mine large amounts of ore, what's the best ship? It's a battleship PERIOD. There's no other option. Should there be? Yes. But until CCP comes out with a 'mining ship', miners have no choice.
As in battle you have to take advantages when you can. Why is this an issure with people mining? If you can drive a BS and have all miner 2's and a drone bay full of harvestors plus rare hull mods to make sure you can handle at lease one pull, GO FOR IT. By all means. The people mining in BS are the smartones realizing ore per pull goes alot with extra mining lasers.
I dont care if you come out to 0.0. or stay in 1.0 I think your should be happy doing whatever to your best extent possible. FYI my miner is in a BS too.
Enjoy the game, I know I am
Lottsa Pox
Pox to ya pod
BioMass Cartel
Podding a system near you |
Cruise
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Posted - 2003.11.05 01:32:00 -
[21]
If you are going to mine in a battleship, fine. I think just about anyone in the game will acknowledge battleships rigged with mining gear and packing harvesters is (sadly enough) a very effective 'strip' mining vessel.
To me it is sad because it effectively equates to a RL destroyer used as a fishing vessel.
Many people want the battleships NOT as a fighting vessel as much as a better mining ship, and are damned well afraid to take said battleship out of dock in anything less than secure Empire space. You can say it's not true all you want, I happen to know several players who own battleships and view them strictly as a better mining vehicle...period.
I think the BIGGEST upset is about the corps that use their battleships to strip mine 1.0 - 0.9 space, because they're not bothered by PvP (unless war's been declared on their corp) OR npc rats. They take the belts down to zip and leave nada for noobs, particularly in the noob startup areas.
C'mon, regardless of finding the battleship to be a damned good miner, get your asses into lower secure space and show some freakin' backbone. If you're making so much isk that you're effectively feeding the market on the low end mins, you've got the means to insure that ship. If you're THAT freaked out by the possibility of losing that precious ship, why bother to get it in the first place?
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Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis ad capul tuum saxum immane mittam.
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.11.05 01:40:00 -
[22]
Quote:
One is that there are people who specifically bought battleships to mine in.
Sorry, this doesn't add any weight to your argument. Even if someone does buy a battleship simply to mine with, they are still getting all of the other functionality along with it.
Your argument is equivalent to saying "It's stupid to buy a car to drive to the corner for milk because you can walk."
Well, yeah, I guess that makes sense - except I can use the car for a hell of a lot of other stuff once I'm done buying the milk. (Even if I only bought it for milk in the first place).
Quote:
C'mon, regardless of finding the battleship to be a damned good miner, get your asses into lower secure space and show some freakin' backbone.
Sorry, this is all just more "play the game like I do or your a wimp" talk. Just because someone owns a battleship doesn't automatically mean they should be risking it in PVP combat. Battleships are good mining vessels, and make NPC hunting much easier/safer.
People should be able to use their battleships however the hell they want, including Mining to their heart's content wherever the hell the feel like it. That's part of the benefit that comes with the high cost.
As for the "nothing left for noobs" argument, it's crap. Show me a 1.0 system that doesn't have plenty of available common ores within 1-3 jumps and I will pay you 10M isk.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Sourus
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Posted - 2003.11.05 01:55:00 -
[23]
Quote:
I think the BIGGEST upset is about the corps that use their battleships to strip mine 1.0 - 0.9 space, because they're not bothered by PvP (unless war's been declared on their corp) OR npc rats. They take the belts down to zip and leave nada for noobs, particularly in the noob startup areas.
Sounds like an angry mushroom-picker to me.
If that's the BIGGEST upset... I pity all of you.
When I started in EVE two weeks after release I was worried that all ore was gone in the safe systems... it wasn't and it isn't. I was actually disappointed the first time I saw a belt respawn. I could safely stay and mine where I wanted to and not have to go to less secure systems to get the common ores. Boring.
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Cruise
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Posted - 2003.11.05 01:57:00 -
[24]
Hmmmm...If you have the time, go through Renyn, it's a 0.9 in Essence. Try Luminaire, that's a 1.0...go through the belts and tell me how much abundant rock there is. You'll find the occasional medium sized scord or veld, and dust or baby roids that pop within minutes.
Seriously, I've cruised through some of the noob belts lately and I've had to make quite a few warps to find the one or two rocks left behind by the strip mining lot.
How do I know it's them? I can't say it's always battleships milking the belts dry, but I HAVE seen enough of them present in the area to know that it doesn't take a hell of a lot of time or effort for a Megathron rigged with 7 miner II's and 8 harvesters to waste a decent sized roid.
People buy the game to play it the way they perceive, no arguement. I personally find it tacky to strip mine belts in 1.0 - 0.9 with battleships because players don't want their ships scratched or their harvesters targeted. Max reward + no risk whatsoever. Sounds fun *insert sarcasm*.
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Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis ad capul tuum saxum immane mittam.
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.11.05 02:18:00 -
[25]
Basically the only problem is once again: ship balance.
Mai's Idealog |
Hyundai
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Posted - 2003.11.05 02:26:00 -
[26]
hmm we have indy 4 each race why not mining ships oh i know that it would take many many months to make ,thats way too much work
" I wasnt aware of this..."
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Maud Dib
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Posted - 2003.11.05 03:53:00 -
[27]
Quote:
Quote:
I wasn't aware the Amarr battleships had 10-14 turrets.
From a cost analysis standpoint, a tier 2 battleship isn't worth the increased initial investment over a Thorax. To receive the investment back through the 3 extra mining lasers an Apocalypse carries and begin earning profit over the cost of a Thorax with 3 mining lasers isn't timely enough to to justify the 90m+ isk price tag over the Thorax.
Sorry, this argument only makes sense if you ONLY use the battleship for mining. Which nobody would ever do - hence the argument makes no sense.
If I upgrade to an Apocalypse from a Thorax not only do I increase my ability to mine, but also to hunt NPCs and defend against PC attacks. In other words, I see an improvement in ALL areas of the game, making it well worth the 90M+ isk price tag.
Anyone who says Battleships shouldn't be used to mine probably never mines anyway because it's an idiotic statement. Successful mining relies on turret hardpoints, CPU capacity, cargo space, drone space, and defensive capabilities. Obviously upgrading to a battleship is wise for anyone who spends a good deal of time mining - and upgrading into a ship which ALSO has other functions such as an NPC hunter makes all the more sense.
I'm wiliing to bet there are a lot of people with battleships that just mine. Maybe they use drones to kill the tiny NPC rts in .5-.7 systems.
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Ol'Dirty Minmatar
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Posted - 2003.11.05 04:31:00 -
[28]
battleship thats never used for battle
I might be a ol'dirty minmatar but I can still beat yo *censored* |
Ethen Hunt
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Posted - 2003.11.05 04:39:00 -
[29]
Cruise your spot on mate..
Why can no one else, cough, Veruna, see just because you can, dosn't mean you should. Yes BS can mine more ore than anything else they have more hard points. I also don't blame you for doing it, it makes good business sense. But please, please just admit you ant doing the game any favors. Everyone cry's out that we need more players, and people continue leaving eve in their droves.
But can we blame them when you are taking away their only decent way of getting into a lvl 2 or 3 frigate in the shortest poss time. Why the f*** should they have to make 3 jumps to find a decent rock, when you carn't be arsed leaving empire space incase you get your BS scratched.
Why are people so F****** shelfish when it involves something they do. Obviousley Veruna mines in a BS in secure space, why make it so plain. Open your mind and think of the bigger picture for once. Perhaps cpp should change the newbie tutorials that asks you to mine an ore and refine it at your starter station to include "thats if you can find any due to BS's mining in your area!!"
Before you ask, yes I mine in a BS, but i do it in 0.3 or below, as thats where i have been since a couple of weeks into the game, and thats where you should be. The only time i enter secure space is to sell the minerals ive refined becuase the prices are crap near home.
You should try it, mining and rat farming at the same time is quite a sight.
So please leave the newbie stations to the newb's.
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.11.05 04:49:00 -
[30]
Quote:
Obviousley Veruna mines in a BS in secure space, why make it so plain.
Why make it so plain that you don't know shiat about me? I don't even have a BS skill, let alone a ship.
Quote:
Open your mind and think of the bigger picture for once.
I don't have to open my mind to anything, it's very simple. I've seen enough roid belts in 0.7-0.9 to know that there is absolutely no shortage of Frigate and Cruiser mining in the Universe, period. If you don't want to leave the highway, okay, maybe you'll have trouble finding flourishing belt - but it doesn't take long to be swimming in Ore.
This is especially true since we're supposedly talking about saving it for "n00bs" who are mostly mining in Frigates anyway.
When was the last time any of you mined in a Frigate? Do you know how long it takes to pop even a moderately sized Scordite or Veldspar roid in a reasonable amount of time?
Nobody's hurting for Scordite. Sorry, it's just not happening.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
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