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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.05 04:51:00 -
[31]
 Quote:
Quote:
One is that there are people who specifically bought battleships to mine in.
Sorry, this doesn't add any weight to your argument. Even if someone does buy a battleship simply to mine with, they are still getting all of the other functionality along with it.
You made the initial error with your flat statement:
Quote:
Sorry, this argument only makes sense if you ONLY use the battleship for mining. Which nobody would ever do - hence the argument makes no sense.
I corrected you in your initial statement. You a logical person (most times), Veruna. What happens to the resulting conclusion that's based on inaccurate data?
Quote:
Your argument is equivalent to saying "It's stupid to buy a car to drive to the corner for milk because you can walk."
Well, yeah, I guess that makes sense - except I can use the car for a hell of a lot of other stuff once I'm done buying the milk. (Even if I only bought it for milk in the first place).
This is an inaccurate analogy on your part. For one it, again, ignores the fact that people have and will continue to buy battleships only for the purposes of mining. The rest of the uses are irrelevant if they are never used.
Secondly, you analogy is flawed in the comparisons. You state that I'm saying to completely forsake using a vehicle as the cost isn't justified. That analogy is inaccurate as I never said any such thing and stated using a Thorax as a better investment.
A more appropriate analogy would be in buying a Ferrari for the sole purposes of travelling to the corner store to buy milk, when given the distance concerned a Yugo would be a far cheaper and more cost effective solution. And less likely to be missed if totalled in the circumstances found in driving a vastly overpowered car at full capacity and the high probability of traffic tickets for doing 150 MPH in a 35 MPH zone (or jail time depending on the state, as in Texas) in neighborhoods. 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Infinity Ziona
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Posted - 2003.11.05 04:53:00 -
[32]
"for those that sneer at battleship mining, name an alternative?"
NPC hunting, Pirating, Bounty Hunting, Agent Missions, Roleplaying, Exploring, Trading...
Well you'll probably say that those possible career paths are not as profitable as mining in a BS in secure space...
Which is exactly right and why CCP finally woke up and smelt the roses...
and noticed that those roses smelt a little too much like poooo
Infinity
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LLeBRing
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Posted - 2003.11.05 05:20:00 -
[33]
Is the question mining in a battleship?
- cause that is fine
Mining near n00b systems?
- Thats just bloody wrong and an absolute cheap tactic
I have no problem with battleships mining. Its absolutely necessary, but to mine in and around n00b systems where n00bs hang out?? Com'on man what the hell are you doing? Make the game fun for the little man in life, get some balls and get the hell out
Nuttin but corn bread en chicken for this fella  |
Ezra Vouland
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Posted - 2003.11.05 05:23:00 -
[34]
Quote:
Quote:
My 5 miner 2s at ming 5/5 and 10 harveys with ming dorne lvl 5 might otmine u in an apoc with 8 miner 2s.... but who knows...
Skills don't have anything to do with ships. If YOU were to mine in an Apocalypse you would beat yourself. Hence the Apocalypse is a better mining ship. It has room for 8-9 drones, which is all most people can use anyway, and even with 8 CU Vapors mines faster than a Thorax with 5 Miner IIs.
the poitn is most peopel dont have ma xmining skillz...
They call me trash... TrashGUY |
Slithereen
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Posted - 2003.11.05 05:40:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Slithereen on 05/11/2003 05:46:44
I admit it!
I bought a battleship to mine. Ironically I hunted my way to buy one.
My Arma is fitted with enough rare cargo holds that it can be an indy itself, except that it crawls like a turtle (each cargo hold has a negative speed bonus, and there are eight of them). Then with seven mining lasers and Harvester drones.
I eat one roid after another in a 0.9 system. I use the moeny to buy more skills and weapons, and inevitable to work up to a second battleship, which I hope will be a Scorpion next time. Given the rate this baby eats rock, that may probably come soon.
I hunted with the Arma and it was a bore. Killing NPCs with it has the same entertainment value as mining rocks. Maybe I don't know enough spawn sites, but it's a chore and unproductive to go from one place to another only to find out someone is already on them. And there is no NPC you can't kill with a cruiser.
I still the majority of my work in my cruisers, hunting, exploring. Only when I need to crunch some rock I take out my bs. The Arma is not a good choice for a pvp battleship, lacking the midslots. It's either a PvE, fleet fire support ship, or a miner. So I'm using my Arma to work up to another battleship, the next time will be a Scorpion.
If you want a mining BS, go with an Arma. It costs a lot less than an Apoc, holds more space and drones at the expense of one less mining laser. But you can have eight to ten heavy drones protecting you.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Woda Hszan
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Posted - 2003.11.05 06:01:00 -
[36]
From what i have just read on Eve-Gate dev chat.
BS mining is going to get a big shakrup soon, with the next Tech2 patch.
Looks like they are going to start to use wear and tear on stuff now, and make it more dangerous as well to mine in BS¦s.
Will be nice to go back to the good old Thorax and mine again |
Myrmex
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Posted - 2003.11.05 06:19:00 -
[37]
Ok im willing to stop mining in my apocalypse with 8 minerII and 8 harvester extracting 1026m3 per minute with it ...
But at ONE condition you stop using Large turret on ALL bship and use cruiser gun so that u cannot be the best fighter since u dont want me to be the best miner.
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MrPops
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Posted - 2003.11.05 06:20:00 -
[38]
Veruna is the only person here making sense. I'm sorry for you Veruna, you are trying to argue with Jash. He is not the type to easily admit when he is wrong as you can see with his reply to your logical post.
Verunna's argument looks at the whole picture while many of you focus on just the mining aspect of a battleship. A battleship is an asset that has many uses obviously. The people screaming "BATTLEship so you should go out and fight" are narrowminded fools who call you chicken when you don't play the way they do, just like you stated Veruna. I don't see the problem with people using any ship in any way they want. Anybody calling them out is acting with an absurd elitist attitude.
Owning a BS means you have many options open to your gameplay.
One day you could strip mine scordite for millions per hour. The same day you can turn around and go to 0.0 space and chain hunt 40-50k pirates and make millions per hour as well. You can also refit yourself and join a combat situation or do some PVP. The ship pays for itself in the fun value and in the potential money you can make with it. The risk involved in losing a 90 million ship is something you assume. There is no glory without risk though.
So Tabius go mine in your battleship. Have no shame and don't listen to those who say otherwise.
"The human species suffers from a dimensional limitation. They are not able to understand that matter and mind are just one aspect of something more fundamental. We must strive to expand our perspective so we can see what our true reality is."
Deep toughts by Mr.Pops, while consuming large quantities of Blue Pill and staring at the EVE gate in Genesis.
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Molly
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Posted - 2003.11.05 06:22:00 -
[39]
New mining ship class would be good.
Like smaller titans.
With a very weak defence. So they actually need to get protection in every system below 1.0/0.9.
--
Kasha > Mastema, face the reality: All the juicy dots are gone.
-- |
Myrmex
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Posted - 2003.11.05 06:26:00 -
[40]
Mining ship :
8 high slot , 1 medium slot , 8 low slot.
8 turrets.
500 drone bay.
2000 base cargo
250 shield , 500 armor , 500 structure .
Play around with the stas toward races bonus ( armor amarr , shield caldari etc....)
Now price that at i would say 15-25 million and u got a decent alternative for a BATTLEship.
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Icarus Thorne
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Posted - 2003.11.05 07:10:00 -
[41]
"Battleship" and "cruiser" are clearly misnomers. The real warships are owned by Concord and the empires. Anyone who's been on the receiving end of their fire will likely acknowledge this.
We fly armed civilian ships built upon obsolete military hull plans. I think the present naming scheme should be replaced with terms such as "armed transport" and "merchant escort" which better suit their status and usage in the game.
A simple renaming would get rid of perceptual absurdities such as mining in a battleship.
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Drachir
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Posted - 2003.11.05 07:34:00 -
[42]
I have an apoc. I farm with it, and I mine with it. I dont see the point of getting a cruiser just to mine with when you have a better mining ship right there.
Howevwer, stripping belts in noob systems I cannot agree with. While the game allows for it (for now at least), I still think its wrong.
And I see nothing wrong with people getting a battleship just for mining. Mainly for the reason that if they lose their pvp battleship, they have a decent miner to replace it with.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.11.05 07:40:00 -
[43]
Too many of the minerals needed for large-scale production are available in 0.5 and above.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Hakera
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Posted - 2003.11.05 08:01:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Hakera on 05/11/2003 08:02:50
The issue is with the amount of isk made through mining in a BS. CCP never intended I think from the sounds of the interview for it to be the most profitable occupation.
Like everything, the professions need balance, and mining is the no.1 to get rich quick & risk free. Several things should help this such as the introduction of fractions of isk for trit.
Some sort of restriction on use of BS for mining whether it be only allowed to use those class vessels in 0.6- systems and that there is a tax based on the size of your vessel or a record is kept somehow of the amount of ore units collected and you are taxed that way??
Whichever way it is, if CCP use a variety of methods it is to stop BS Strip mining being so profitable and risk free. Out of all the porfessions I dont think many can beat around 2mill isk/hour in this game, given that also mining socrdite is almost as profitable as mining kernite.
Perhaps a volume restriction might help a little, but the mining rate would need to be nerfed to stop common ores paying so much on market and have a huge mining rate.
The issue does need to be addressed as a potential 40mill a day can be earned through strip mining, and the other professions dont even come close.
A good idea I liked was that skills should have been kept for porfession classes as well so a fighter could not learn more than a basic lvl 1 mining related skills or has a stupid multiplier in the time for these skills but a much smaller one for skill srelated to their profession.
This has lead to old characters being able to do everything from mining to BP research to fighting, I think it should have been restricted what skills you may learn to a certain level or take a certain time multiplier by profession.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Kennian
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Posted - 2003.11.05 08:48:00 -
[45]
Pathfinder deep space mineing vessel
8 LIGHT turrets, 1 missle mount
4 medium slots
5 low slots
1000 base cargo
150mps base speed
3500 drone capacity <mineing vessels often rely totaly on their drones for defence, and to augment their mineing abillity, plus this is the gallante version>
Structure> 3500
Armor> 3500
Shields>3500
power grid> 5000
CPU> 2000
lock range> 60000
Gravametric sensor str> 20
construction cost 40 million
this would be a balanced, effective mineing vessel. able to hold it's own in 0.0 agenst many foe's, and being tough enough to escape from all but the best prepared PVP encounters without resorting to overwhelming firepower. would often travel with a fleet in 0.0...indi's battleships..etc. be a nice ship. i want one :P
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Miso
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Posted - 2003.11.05 09:15:00 -
[46]
I'd like to sneer at battleship miners.
Sneer.
Thanks!
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Dead
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.11.05 09:20:00 -
[47]
Edited by: j0sephine on 05/11/2003 09:32:57
"Pathfinder deep space mineing vessel
Gravametric sensor str> 20"
... Any particular reason for a mining vessel to have stronger sensors than the most advanced (electronics-wise) Caldari battleship? :s
edit: as for the advanced mining ship... slap a medium sized drone bay on Iteron 5, take away 2 middle slots and add 2 extra high slots instead, allow all high slots to work as hard points for mining lasers, nerf the powergrid a little bit so it can fit max 2 AFB's with all mining lasers installed... call it a day -- pretty sturdy ship with high skill requirements, able to mine for a long time fairly quick, but requiring escort for protection from both PC pirates and heavier NPC's....
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Sourus
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Posted - 2003.11.05 09:51:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Sourus on 05/11/2003 09:52:34
Quote:
CCP never intended...
I've heard that one a lot. Too bad for them not to be able, or have the manpower, to think ahead.
The n00b argument is pathetic. It brings tears to my eyes that you guys care for them so much.
New players should avoid 1.0 and mine better ores like kernite and such at the first available opportunity (getting a slightly better gun and a shieldbooster).
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Ariell Lucinwind
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Posted - 2003.11.05 10:23:00 -
[49]
I would like to point out some things that I noticed since I started playing, which is now just over a week. YAY I feel so happy. #Ahem# Anyways, the battleship/cruisers strip mining the space where I am groing up in looks disgusting, I went to get some roids for an agent mission and I ended up with three things happening;
1. The roids were dry.
2. The guy in the big BIG ship told me to F off for fear I would steal his roid and that if I did do it he would pay some one to kill me. (Gee thanks guys I really feel like playing EVE)
3. My agent got grumpy cause I spent too much time looking for roids with ore in them. 
4. All miners seem to enjoy playing this game also Miners Game
So all in all, tis is no fun being me and a little frigate 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Came back cause I love you guys :P |
Ch'ryl
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Posted - 2003.11.05 10:24:00 -
[50]
I have no problem with battleship miners. I do however, have an immense problem with battleship miners in high security and especially noob space. You can mine in low sec space with relatively few problems in a battleship. NPC rats are no match for a few well aimed wasps even in 0.1 space. PKers aren't everywhere and if you keep a good eye on local then you should never get caught by a PKer.
So I sneer at battleship miners in noob space, yes.
Why is it that when someone tells you that there are over a billion stars in the universe, you believe them, but if they tell you there is wet paint somewhere, you have to touch it to make sure? |
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Miso
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Posted - 2003.11.05 10:32:00 -
[51]
Quote:
2. The guy in the big BIG ship told me to F off for fear I would steal his roid and that if I did do it he would pay some one to kill me. (Gee thanks guys I really feel like playing EVE)
If anyone in empire space ever gives you grief like this again, steal their ore anyway. I do.
You'll find that most peoples threats are empty in Eve and that most of the time, people talk shi t.
If every person who threatened me had carried out their threats, I'd get podded 200 times a day. 
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Dead
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Phersephone
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Posted - 2003.11.05 10:34:00 -
[52]
the main problem in 1.0 systems are the hoards of AFK indy miners.... they target a large belt and strip it dry overnight while they sleep. just go to somewhere like cistavert and you will see loads of indys afk mine late at night.
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Carp Riddell
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Posted - 2003.11.05 11:01:00 -
[53]
Personally I don't care what people mine in, I'm only bothered by the fact that the mineral has a guarenteed minimum price thanks to NPC buy orders and regional buy orders.
If people want to mine all day without risk of damage, that's fine, but mining all day without financial risk is rather unfair. After all, mining is the only trade in Eve at the moment where you can work out your income by play hours before you even start, and requires almost no player (not character) skill.
- Carp Riddell
- CEO, Innsmouth Shipping
- Proud Member of Curse Alliance
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BigBanjo
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Posted - 2003.11.05 12:27:00 -
[54]
Edited by: BigBanjo on 05/11/2003 12:44:09
In my opnion mine in the empire space with a BS is ok.
I'm a member of Pie Inc (from the beginning of Eve), a RP corp. We are Amarr and only fly Amarr ships.
Im specialized in refining, mining and doing industry skills atm.
So when i read this thread, most people want me to quitt Pie Inc or stop training my specialisations. Cause when i want to mine good amounths of "normal" orein a cruiser. I need to buy a Thorax (so i can still mine in empire space) and thats not allowed in my corp. Or I train my fighting skill, so i can go mine scord, pyro, omber, kern in 0.0 space and can't train what im good in any more.
So i get punished, because people think its not fair. This empire mining in a BS is in the game just as Camping jump in points is in the game. Get used to it for now.
The biggest problem is the moral from players. I mine in 0.2-0.5, so the noobs have their own space. I dont use secure cans, so when an ore thief comes,it's bad luck for me. I kill the pesty npc's with some drones, so i cant use all for mining. I like it that way.
But hey there are always players without moral and they are stripping the noob belts.
If i start whining about camping jump in points like in Sarum, all those Biomass members start flaming me, cause when they cant camp, the game is not fun and they have to move to 0.0 space to PK players. Blablablabla
They have also no moral and thats why they are killing every (noob) player. But its in the game and i accept that.
Now they want to bann me to 0.0 space?? A member of Biomass found best solutions for mining BS problem in another thread?? HAHAHAHA it makes me and  Pirates without morals are whining.
About taxes for mining in a BS??
Please dont start whining when your precious ship are getting rare and expensive, because people stop mining huge amouths of trit and pyr.
About getting low prices for normal minerals.
Yeah that would be great, isnt it...all those cheap ships.
About moving most mediocre roids to 0.0.
Yeah, so all the Alliance can mine it and get even more power. So we can only hope the mineral prices of isogen and nox dont follow the mega and zyd way.
About adjusted industrial ships or new miningship
sounds good.
And when a solution is found for this "problem", i am verry eager to now what the following "problem" is going to be. So we can all start this stupidity again.
I think the biggest problem is a moral issue. And as in real life we have to get used to it.
This is only my opinion, don't hold my corp responsible for it.
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Miso
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Posted - 2003.11.05 12:30:00 -
[55]
Quote:
the main problem in 1.0 systems are the hoards of AFK indy miners.... they target a large belt and strip it dry overnight while they sleep. just go to somewhere like cistavert and you will see loads of indys afk mine late at night.
So they're using macros for this?
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Dead
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2003.11.05 12:44:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Slithereen on 05/11/2003 12:44:32
Mining in high security sectors carries their own innate disadvantage.
It is boring to the utmost.
And regardless, it will never yield as much profit as mining in lower security sectors.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2003.11.05 12:50:00 -
[57]
First, the selling point of Eve is that you can do what you want in the game. I find it funny that the people who's motto is "We can do what we want." Steal, lie, cheat (not exploit), pirate, misuse game mechanics (jump in lag), and generally grief the hell out of anyone that comes near is ok. But if an individual is content to mine in fairly secure space, that is bad. Now it is the using an expensive battle ship is "wrong! wrong I say to mine with! It is a BATTLEship and you should only fight with it." Next it will be cruisers are ment to fignt not mine. My answer is... why are you such a busy body that you have to waste time about how I have fun? Gotta love the socialist pirates.
So to quote Jade's definition, we have the "carebear pirates" whining because people will not come out where they can kill and steal from them. To Bad.
For those that think that mining makes too much isk for little risk, one suggestion... start mining. You too will find it boring as hell.
Lets put this arguement in the proper perspective. Except for industrials, all ships in Eve are warships. I started posting requestes to CCP back in the beta's that there needs to be civilian ships added other than just industrials.
CCP decided to nerf the cargo hold size on all ships to make them worse miners. The original cargo holds were about 10x what they are now. Why was this done, to slow down mining.
Now for those that are wondering, I mine to get the minerals to keep my production going. I believe in vertial integration and it works. So while I have a Dominix to do agent missions, trade, harvest rats, and anything else that has any risk because it is cheap, I have an Apoc just for mining. Why, because it is the best miner in the game and lets me spend as little time as possible mining. As to the cost, who cares, what is there to spend isk on anyway? There is a huge gap between 100 million (cruiser BP or battleship) and the 700 million needed to get the cheapest battleship BP.
I do agree that mining in anything larger than a frigate should not be allowed in the noobie starting systems. That is not all of high sec empire space, just the initial starting systems.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Oosel
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Posted - 2003.11.05 13:09:00 -
[58]
i use a bs for mining as we are a small corp and mine in 0.2 space we have regular visits from player pirates and i know for a fact if we didnt have 2 bs there and were just in cruisers we would be podded instantly because all the cruisers who you see in local do just that...not everybody spends hour upon hour in the game or want to join a big alliance and one of the strengths of this game is its non linear way of progression everybody finds a way to get ahead so good luck to them.
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Xander Teg
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Posted - 2003.11.05 13:18:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Xander Teg on 05/11/2003 13:23:45
I mine in an BS for one reason:
I hate mining.
I do it, because without Logistics you cannot make war. I mine in an apoc because there isn't a ship that is faster for mining. And the faster I mine the sooner i'm done. I couldn't care less about cost effectiveness, I do whatever it takes to get the mining over and done with so i can fight.
I dont mine in sec space ever. We get our Bulk ore from 0.0 just like we get our rares.
I think a heavy tax on sec space mining on ships above frigates is a great idea.
how about this for a formula:
Ore tax on BS = (V*.8*S)
Ore tax on cruiser = (V*.5*S)
V = npc mined ore value
S = security rating of system
or something along those lines. This will also eliminate macro users.
the only problem i have with people mining in empire space is:
Quote:
Hellmar: The megacyte shortage can be attributed to the fact that you can mine unattended with a cruiser or battleship in >0.5 space at no risk. By that method and with the guaranteed prices of the NPCÆs, you can make very high profits with absolutely no danger. While this is the case, there is no incentive for people to group up and go mining precious ore in 0.0 space. We will now address this issue from both ends, eliminating the risk-free part of mining in a large ship in Empire space and the continuous reseeding of the market will allow for greater player control of mineral prices and fluctuations of value in general. This will force the afk battleship miners out of Empire space and into 0.0, bringing in a lot more mecacyte and zydrine.
_________________
"For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack."
-Rudyard Kipling
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Barl Rathbone
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Posted - 2003.11.05 13:23:00 -
[60]
But introducing a cheaper mining ship that can mine as much as battleship doesnt help does it ?
It means even more people can strip mine in high sec so makes the issue worse.
At the end of the day mining is a career path and if it is not acceptable for an experienced miner to be able to make more money than a newbie then whats the point of it ?
We have Uber Pirates in powerful ships, why cant there be Uber miners ?
And to say it is ruining mining for noobs is nonsense. The belts in Hulm do get decimated but a noob in a probe will still have plenty to mine and in the 3 systems around hulm the belts are always full of ore.
SAVE THE MINERS !
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