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Afrigael Hax Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.04.14 03:02:13 - [1] - Quote Ok so lets get something straight from the start .. I'm a 'casual' player who has never read anything on the forum before today and quite frankly I'm shocked at the complete lack of understanding and empathy shown by you guys, the 'real' players of eve. This is probably the 4th time I've returned to eve and about 2 weeks ago I had that 'moment of enlightenment' that completely changed my perceptions of the game. At the minute I'm in the position that I can see the game from the point of view of new and casual players and from that of the 'real' players. Casual player = someone who literally can't play the game to their own schedule but that dictated by their real life .. in my case I'm lucky if I get to play for a few hours late in the evening when my kids are in bed and my wife is watching some stupid film about mermaids or whatever. When I came back into the game I used my old main character and whizzed through all the starter/career tutorials twice (in 2 factions) and it all made perfect sense ... because I already understood what the tutorials were talking about. I found the tutorials section quite entertaining, although needing reorganisation of the order of the missions. So then I went and started my new main toon and attempted to do the tutorials again (basically for the ships and I'd never done them from the Amarr faction ever before). It was without doubt one of the most infuriating experiences I've ever encountered in playing MMOs over the last 20 years. 5 minutes into it I was expected to wait for 3-4 hours for basic skills to be added to my character ..WTF? And so the tutorials stutter along for about 2 days... my opinion of the skill system in eve is that it is a thing of beauty, BUT it doesn't work at the beginning of the game. So I have at least 5 or 6 real life casual-gamer friends who should be lifelong fans of eve and they all refuse to play this game ... so I decided to find out what makes casual gamers avoid committing to this game and how other 'enlightened' players still playing got over the 'hazing' period at the start. I didn't ask very many people ..about 10 in game and a dozen or so outside of the game... after digging and digging and digging to find the real truth ... Casual players will not play eve because "there's no way I'm paying for a game where I have to wait for 2 years before I can start playing the game properly, that's just ridiculous". When I first logged in again to my account my eye was immediately drawn to the 'character remap' service .. I actually said out loud 'thank god someone at CCP has finally had the common sense to let us new players sort out our **'. I may have actually peed a little in excitement. Imagine my disappointment to discover I could change my hairstyle. Total time I've played the game is around 6months or slightly more (15million skillpoints). So I asked the 'real' players how long was it for them before they had that moment of 'enlightenment' and could see how amazing the game actually is and therefore not give a anymore about the constant delays in character development. Most said "oh a couple of days and then I just got it", but when pushed actually admit 'well maybe around the 3 to 4 month mark, maybe a bit longer before I really understood what I was doing". And the general attitude to newbies from you guys is " you! I had to go through it why should you be let off, there's nothing wrong with the skill system". Actually there is a problem if it stops casual players from joining the game or frustrates them enough to overwhelm their initial curiosity. Casual players are the lifeblood of any MMO game, we're the smallfolk who run around like headless chickens, getting blown up, buying expensive and often useless cosmetic ** and generally being exploited by the 'real' players. For every 1 of you there should be at least 10 of me and in a game of this calibre there should be hundreds of us for each 1 of you. We play a game until it bores or frustrates us... we don't have time or patience for being 'dicked around' by bad game design. I played World of KungFuPandaland for 12 years. I'm sure there are many possible solutions to the 'skill gap perception problem' of new players, I can think of 3 straight off the top of my head .. 1. rookie-learning implants for 6 months or less (that are replaced when lost like the rookie ships). 2. background skillsets dependant on the character background that enable a 6 month toon to do something reasonably competently (doesn't mean the player will be competent though). 3. character skill remap service (which will bring more real money into the game which is good for any MMO business, more money = better wages=happier staff=better service to you and longevity for the game). As a casual gamer I would never pay for a second account on any game no matter how much I loved it, however if some kind of 'light at the end of the tunnel' was introduced for new characters, I would definitely consider starting a second and possibly third alt character doing simultaneous learning regimes. Yet again more money into the game etc. You see its not about what is actually going on but what the rookie perceives to be going on in the beginner game. The beginner game is always going to be harsh in eve .. I got blown up at a gatecamp in the first hour of playing, its just the nature of the game and its actually exciting. At the minute Eve is the 'Firefly' of MMO games and the end of season 1 is in sight. 45k players at peak time that's scandalous, there should be millions playing this game. It's all very well being the nerdy kid in the corner with all the awards, but MMO games need players or they just wither and die, dwindling in a strange sad way. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who remembers some game fondly that's not around anymore and the game-friends they lost touch with.
Unsuccessful At Everything The Troll Bridge 21126	Posted - 2015.04.14 03:18:15 - [2] - Quote Afrigael Hax wrote: I played World of KungFuPandaland for 12 years. Found your hangup. Eve =/= WoW. *Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?*
SIrera Artrald Titans Rising 59	Posted - 2015.04.14 03:42:46 - [3] - Quote Afrigael Hax wrote: In my case I'm lucky if I get to play for a few hours late in the evening when my kids are in bed and my wife is watching some stupid film about mermaids or whatever. Tell your wife I'm sorry. In your case I think you'd be lucky if she didn't run for the hills. Maybe spend less time trying to get away from her to play a video game and more time with this person you've, you know, married, you might even discover you have a few common interests. Life is a bitch but she's totally doable. She may be a beauty but life, life is a bitch.
DaReaper Net 7 1923	Posted - 2015.04.14 03:53:20 - [4] - Quote 1) there is no skill gap problem. This is what people who come here form Wow and other games with the wrong mind set think. Skill points mean nothing in eve. You get a little advantage in some things, but honestly not a whole lot. For example: Gas mining just gives you one more miner per level. but if you train it to 5, which takes maybe a week, you can us eone on a venture/prospect at 25% faster then if its not at 5. thats really not a huge advantage, but ti helps. and a noob can gas mine in about 30 min. 2) There is tons of casual play, loads. even things not considered casual can be casual. You can join RvB and have fights rather easily if you want, you can mine for a few hours and multi task, you can run missions, you can salvage, scam, explore, all kinds of things you can do on a casual basis. and if you don;t pay with a plex then you don;t have to worry about grinding to make isk to pay your sub. 3) Stop harping on skill points and learn the game. you will quickly find out that, as i said in #1 sp's mean nothing to answer pour question, i'm an 11 year vet. my time of 'enlightenment' when i got the game and thought it rocked was a single week. and i mined. Thats what did it. you need to change your thinking clearly. GL OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
Vicky Somers Rusty Anchor 300	Posted - 2015.04.14 05:58:37 - [5] - Quote This reads like some copypasta straight from the European WoW forums. "Casual players are the lifeblood of any MMO game" Yeah... No. Moderate strength is shown in violence, supreme strength is shown in levity.
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out 7857	Posted - 2015.04.14 06:17:54 - [6] - Quote "How did you Veterans start" tldr; it varies from person to person... but the game actually "starts" when you simply try things for the sake of trying them (for better or worse) and/or socialize and work together with people... lacking "abilities" be damned. "The Skillpoint System and You" tldr: the system is designed to make your crawl before you walk... to learn how to use what you have before gaining access to "better stuff"... so you can see that "better stuff" is only as good as your ability to use it creatively and in the right situations... and to give veterans certain "perks" without utterly crushing newbies (like other SP systems do in other games). Plus... that "throttling" helps prevent newbies from "leapfrogging" into expensive stuff and ragequitting harder when they are forcibly dismantled by more cunning people in ships a tenth of the value. Oh yeah... and there is no such thing as "wasted" or "useless" skillpoints... merely skillpoints you are not utilizing (for whatever reason). And no matter what you think you WILL eventually come back to those skills... because EVE is not linear and skillpoints you gain at any point in time (even as a newbie) will always have a purpose and never lose their potency (you can only improve upon them). The only reason you would want a skill remap is because you are a dirty, dirty min/maxer who doesn't want to "wait" and always wants to fly the FOTM. In which case you are no "casual" at all. Because "casuals" don't care about a couple hours of extra training time they may or may not use. Or that one month they decided to train into mining and see if it really was that boring (hey... at least you can use a Procurer now and do shenanigans with it!) How did you start? The SP System IFW
Afrigael Hax Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.04.14 06:57:07 - [7] - Quote Obviously I didn't explain myself properly or you cant actually read .. generally I agree with most of what DaReaper said. Its an amazing game with boundless possibilities for self-inflicted adventures. Although saying its not skill based is nonsense, can you hack a can without a high enough skill to get though the minigame ..of course not, but I get exactly what you mean. However I'm already past that point and actually the post was not about me ..its about how new players perceive the game and why they don't play. I personally have no problem with the game system...now. When I played Wow I had no agenda and I still ended up with the same shiny swords and whatever, it just took me longer to get them, just like all my casual-gamer friends. We don't really care about stuff like that. I prefer gritty over shiny. You would have to be an imbecile not to know the difference between Wow and this game. I play to be entertained. I play as a roleplayer...that's why I don't read the forums ..I prefer to learn in game, or at least as much as possible. You guys have obviously discussed such matters before and assumed I'm a particular kind of person having a moan because I can't play the game or want shiny swords and a pat on the ego. Anyway how you play the game is your business, some of us don't have the time to play it as a sim, me personally I'm a roleplayer so I take much longer farting about than others who powergame, some nights I just fly about and see what's out there. If you want to be sitting on your billions of isk smiling benevolently on us lesser mortals in 10 years time then you have to change people's perceptions of the game right from the start. You guys who read forums and get involved in how the game is run are basically the core player group. CCP looks to you for guidance, not plebs like me. There appears to be about 25k of you, where is everyone else? Where are all the minions, the smallfolk like me? Quote: you can do virtually everything in eve in about 30 min of training per your occupation. To do it well or better takes both skill points and time doing it - yes indeed very well said, but you have to actually understand that.... you understand it, I understand it but most new players don't. You got the game from the first day..good for you (pat on the head). All this amazing new content and changes aren't going to be worth **** in the wind if there are no new players coming into the game. Get your finger out and get it sorted.
Afrigael Hax Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.04.14 07:10:03 - [8] - Quote Plus... that "throttling" helps prevent newbies from "leapfrogging" into expensive stuff and ragequitting harder when they are forcibly dismantled by more cunning people in ships a tenth of the value. [/quote] that's not true...newbies leapfrog into stuff all the time and get trashed and don't leave, but I get the gist of what you mean and probably agree with most of it ... but you are not a newb or you're just naturally a good player of this particular game in which case you're already way past the point of actually understanding the problem.
Tiddle Jr Galvanized Inc. 113	Posted - 2015.04.14 07:25:40 - [9] - Quote Eve has changed since it was launched and i can't tell it's a newbie ffiendly much. I did went through the tutorials and it was useless as ****. I was pwned on undockmy next day i've joined corp/alli. It was a WT hehe, so i have learnt some thing new every day, when i was running my single man mining corp so i was wardec'd and was surprised how the hell the bastard found me that easy (agent locator haha) so it was long and not easy way to learn all those bits and piecies and put them all together into a big picture. I could tell the op one thing - do your homework before you decided to jump into this game, if you have friends who already play stick to them for a giudance, if not do your homework and search for a newbie friendly corp with mentors ready to give you advise. This game is well knownw for it's complexity so you can't expect thigs go easy from the day 1. And you are correct , after a few years it is almost turned to easy mode gamestyle and things flown by default. If you could spend sometime and look through the forums you will find some good stories about skill system you are blaming, and game experience etc etc.
Omar Alharazaad Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 1501	Posted - 2015.04.14 08:08:38 - [10] - Quote the throttling had a much greater effect way back in the past when income was more closely linked to ability in the game. Since the whole PLEX thing started up it's become a great deal easier for someone to end up flying something they not only do not have the skills to do justice, but also have less than a snowball's chance in hell to replace when it goes boom. As a more or less 'casual' player myself, (ie, works a full time job plus overtime overnights) I have found there's plenty to do in the game even with limited time. Missions, exploration, pvp, industry and mining... you can do all of these things even if you've only got an hour or so here or there to work with. Some content will be denied to you for certain due to only being able to put so much of your time and energy into the game... that's no different than other MMO's in the past as well. What is different is that your character continues to progress during that time when you are not playing. Your skillpoints keep training, your industry jobs keep running, and those market orders are still out there. That's the easy part. The hard part is progressing as a player, not a character. I keep a thoughtgun next to the bed, fully loaded with nerdshot. Just in case.
Garmyne Atavuli Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 16	Posted - 2015.04.14 08:34:42 - [11] - Quote Empathy and EvE don't mix, it's dog eat dog man. Some skill levels take 50+ days to train, it takes roughly 20 years to train every skill in EvE to Lv5. Waiting for a skill to train is something you just have to accept. EvE is all about specialization: Mercenary, Bounty Hunter, Explorer, Ganker, Awoxer/Corp Theif, PvPer, Manufacturer, Miner, Salvager, Courier, Mission Runner, Scammer, Researcher, Pirate, Scout, Trader etc etc. To learn them all takes a long time, to learn one take no time at all. To be good? well that's up to you.
Sykaotic Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2015.04.14 08:45:35 - [12] - Quote The skill learning actually allows for players to be able to use mechanics of the game. Now.... learning to play Eve is not covered in those skils :) Eve is one of very few games that alls all players to "skill up" per say without even being logged in. The true learning while actaully playing the game.... and until one does that, it does not make a damn if you have everything to V. Lastly, take FW for instance.... you can have a brand new toon and makes tons of isk very quickly. But.... you need to learn how to do that, and it does not come from any skill you trained, thus the trained skills are merely a way to start the "real" learning. GL OP Gow makes some isk and blow **** up!
Pak Narhoo Splinter Foundation 1625	Posted - 2015.04.14 08:52:21 - [13] - Quote It's weird, when I started playing EVE I couldn't be nuked away from my screen. The one hour downtime was infuriating like "come on let me play!!" Within 10 days I had left my trial account behind me and before my 1st month in EVE was over I had purchased a second account with 2-3 month's later my third (which I sold 2-3 years ago). Today with over 100 mil SP I'm forum-ing EVE while I skill-train-online. Maybe it's all a matter of perception. And getting asap into a good corp
Sykaotic Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2015.04.14 09:12:33 - [14] - Quote Pak Narhoo wrote: It's weird, when I started playing EVE I couldn't be nuked away from my screen. The one hour downtime was infuriating like "come on let me play!!" Within 10 days I had left my trial account behind me and before my 1st month in EVE was over I had purchased a second account with 2-3 month's later my third (which I sold 2-3 years ago). Today with over 100 mil SP I'm forum-ing EVE while I skill-train-online. Maybe it's all a matter of perception. And getting asap into a good corp Well, from what I have xexperienced, whether from pvp in 0.0, low sec pvp, etc... we all tend to take a break. The nice thing that Eve has unlike other games is that you are lvling up so to speak even when logged off. This is a huge + imo. I would not be surpried if other mmos adopted this idea (shhh) to retain players. I mean.. what are we going to do... add LFG Looking For Gank? Oh wait we already do and you need very little sp to partake of that.
SpaceyJoe Mentat Kollectorz 0	Posted - 2015.04.14 09:17:33 - [15] - Quote DaReaper wrote: 1) there is no skill gap problem. I have found this to be true. Similar to wow, check out the killboards (similar to my experience with wow armory when returning after a break, check out gear/talents/classes that top teams have- this translates into checking out the fits/ships people are successfully flying; only difference is you can't see the skills they have trained).
bonkerss MASS A DEATH Mordus Angels 5	Posted - 2015.04.14 09:41:04 - [16] - Quote there are some skils that you have to have no matter what if you want to play competitive. for example all the cpu/grid/fitting skills. i wouldn't mind if ccp would remove them. its really hard to fit a ship as a noob anyway.. and its not making things easier if you cant use most of the cookie cutter fits or alliance doctrine fits for another year because you lack those boring core skills.
Vicky Somers Rusty Anchor 301	Posted - 2015.04.14 10:07:16 - [17] - Quote bonkerss wrote: there are some skils that you have to have no matter what if you want to play competitive. for example all the cpu/grid/fitting skills. i wouldn't mind if ccp would remove them. its really hard to fit a ship as a noob anyway.. and its not making things easier if you cant use most of the cookie cutter fits or alliance doctrine fits for another year because you lack those boring core skills. If your alliance is noob friendly and at the same time demands their newbie pilots to fly doctrine fits that are very tight, you're either in the wrong place or you haven't been following your alliance's skill training plan like a good little ~~bee~~ newbro should. The cpu/powergrid related skills have a very small multiplier and generally train fast. They are an integral part of learning how to plan ahead and fitting your ship. Moderate strength is shown in violence, supreme strength is shown in levity.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 23609	Posted - 2015.04.14 10:30:06 - [18] - Quote Afrigael Hax wrote: At the minute Eve is the 'Firefly' of MMO games and the end of season 1 is in sight. 45k players at peak time that's scandalous, there should be millions playing this game. It's all very well being the nerdy kid in the corner with all the awards, The difference between Eve and all the other MMO's is the single shard universe, as opposed to the multiple shards scattered across the globe that other games have. I can't think of another game that can boast of 45k+ players all playing on the same shard. Millions would kill CCP's current hardware, which is cutting edge IIRC, and would force CCP to change the nature of the game from single shard to multiple shards by necessity. Quote: but MMO games need players or they just wither and die, dwindling in a strange sad way. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who remembers some game fondly that's not around anymore and the game-friends they lost touch with. 12 years of steadily increasing subs says that you're wrong, many MMOs have been born and died in the time that Eve has been running, and most of them had higher subscription numbers that plateaued rapidly and then dropped through the floor. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Thorn en Distel Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 48	Posted - 2015.04.14 12:06:25 - [19] - Quote I dunno... I'm pretty 'oldschool' as a gamer, I've been playing MMO for over a decade. Can't exactly be accused of not having 'stickwithitness', not after actually getting max level in some Asian grinders, and playing dying MMO until they where well and truly dead. But yeah, EVE has issues, even for me. Truth be told, I'm only playing because it's a SF based game, requires more than just pressing '1', and because of a certain amount of horrid fascination. The much vaunted skill system is, imho, crap. Not because it is skills, and not levels, but because it DOES make a huge difference if you have equally RL skilled players with high SP and low SP, and because it is an actual barrier to playing with your friends, especially early on. So yeah, pretty unattractive to new players. And the older players aren't exactly helping with their HTFU attitude. Funnily enough, it reminds me a lot of some Fantasy games where older characters in their maxed-out looted gear of uberness complain about there not being any PVP anymore... such a surprise that those newbies that keep getting oneshot if they try aren't sticking around for more... So what would I consider a better skill system? Well, you'll probably hate me for this, but the old Star Wars Galaxies one. For starters, skills there were limited. You had a maximum of 250 points you could earn, and that was that. You could do a lot of creative things in combining skill sets, but you had to make choices, and no one could get all skills on one character. This made skilling up a character an achievable target even for newcomers. Those who only wanted combat abilities, could realistically get maxed inside a week. And of course, skills could ONLY be earned by doing the activity related to the skill. Want to learn spaceship crafting? Go craft spaceships, earn the ability by starting out by making subcomponents and working your way up. Want to learn support skills? Go out there and do combat support, starting at low level and working your way up to the better abilities. But that ship has sailed a long, long time ago, and I honestly don't see how the current system could be adjusted without a complete player revolt.
Afrigael Hax Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.04.14 12:36:16 - [20] - Quote Now that's interesting Jonah and makes sense, but you are basically saying that success is just a matter of opinion. I was just trying to give you guys a heads' up on what its like being a newb these days and my worries about the future of my favorite game. What I was actually saying about the rookie game is that its bad practice to take away the customer's choice of how they want to play the game and the rate at which they learn how to play the game, that's basically anti-marketing and in my opinion bad game design. If you like playing the game drunk with your pants on your head, or so stoned you can barely see the screen ...that's your business. If you want to take hours pondering every little thing that's up to you. I prefer to play as a roleplayer, playing an indestructible spirit who sees getting blown up occasionally or trapped in wormholes as an inconvenience.. that means I make mistakes all the time and learn from my mistakes. It's costly and is usually quite inconvenient, especially if you get ganked in nullsec, but I like exploring the map and trying out new ideas myself to see what works for me. Most of these guys are telling me 'this is how to play the game', which is the complete opposite of what sandbox games are supposed to be about....freedom of choice.
Dots State Protectorate Caldari State 60	Posted - 2015.04.14 12:53:49 - [21] - Quote The impatient and the risk averse. Neither of these are demographics that CCP has traditionally catered to. They won't blow up in ships and they don't buy subscriptions. everything is better with ß¦êß¦Æß¦ù-ó on it New Player Opportunities: a gallery
Jenshae Chiroptera 1306	Posted - 2015.04.14 12:55:53 - [22] - Quote I am going to skip the walls of text and try recommend some ways of playing casually that you might enjoy. - Make a channel of friends, probably ones that live in High Sec. - Get on some mailing lists for spectre roams or "NPSI" fleets. - Take turns with your friends to find interesting worm holes - Other than that do the usual ratting and mucking about in High Sec. Good luck. CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids . High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow Fozzie is treating a symptom.
Schmata Bastanold Imperial Collective Unsettled. 3035	Posted - 2015.04.14 13:13:53 - [23] - Quote You have freedom of choice regarding what, where and when you want to do. So have others. Sandbox. You being in wrong place at wrong time on wrong side of guns is not opposite to what sandbox games supposed to be about. Everything else you wrote might be true in your/newbie's eyes but it isn't in grand scheme of things. You might not see it but this is what at some point downs on everybody in one way or another. Best ship is friendship, best measurement of bang for your buck is fun/hr. Invalid signature format
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 10705	Posted - 2015.04.14 13:18:59 - [24] - Quote Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Afrigael Hax wrote: I played World of KungFuPandaland for 12 years. Found your hangup. Eve =/= WoW. This is why I despise MMOs that aren't EVE (or sometimes Darkfall). Most mmos rap people in cotton , protecting them from anything bad (or interesting) while whispering in their ears "you are the center of the universe here" while in reality players are just hamsters on a 'leveling' wheel. EVE is great because even with all the "safety" crap ccp has added over the years (I swear, playing EVE on a new computer is just playing 'safety pop ups online'), EVE still basically expects a player to be an adult and have some initiative in order to 'progress'. The OP is a warning for CCP. No matter how safe you make the game, how many pop ups you add to warn them that they are at risk of generating content (lol), no matter how much stuff you give a new player in the beginning, no matter if you use gimmicks like 'simulators' and 'dojos' etc, you are STILL not going to increase new player retention. It's because those things you do (like the NPE) are side issues, what turns people off is the CORE of EVE online: - the universal non-consensual pvp - the single shard (can't switch servers to avoid people you don't like) with no instancing "ie can never be safe from people you don't like) - the general game and combat mechanics that reward people with social skills/tolerances (more people is always better, which means people who can't or won't make friends can only go so far before hitting a glass ceiling) -The time based skill system (which "robs" players of the faux sense of 'achievement' they get from other games, which imo is why misplaced themepark players in EVE spend so much time leveling up that Raven so they have something tangible to look at as "I did this") and many more. Almost all of the core of EVE would have to change to attract more players because gamers in general need lots of 'fluffing' and hand holding. And if you have to change the core of your product to get people to use it, it means either your product idea was flawed in the 1st place, or you should have been happy with your niche market share and improved in that direction instead of 'mass appeal'.
Baaldor Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion. 281	Posted - 2015.04.14 13:34:44 - [25] - Quote Afrigael Hax wrote: Now that's interesting Jonah and makes sense, but you are basically saying that success is just a matter of opinion. I was just trying to give you guys a heads' up on what its like being a newb these days and my worries about the future of my favorite game. What I was actually saying about the rookie game is that its bad practice to take away the customer's choice of how they want to play the game and the rate at which they learn how to play the game, that's basically anti-marketing and in my opinion bad game design. If you like playing the game drunk with your pants on your head, or so stoned you can barely see the screen ...that's your business. If you want to take hours pondering every little thing that's up to you. I prefer to play as a roleplayer, playing an indestructible spirit who sees getting blown up occasionally or trapped in wormholes as an inconvenience.. that means I make mistakes all the time and learn from my mistakes. It's costly and is usually quite inconvenient, especially if you get ganked in nullsec, but I like exploring the map and trying out new ideas myself to see what works for me. Most of these guys are telling me 'this is how to play the game', which is the complete opposite of what sandbox games are supposed to be about....freedom of choice. Let me give you a little insight from someone that has not played for 20 years of MMO and this game was my first. I am "older" as in, i get to qualify for AARP. I have been doing this since May of 2005, and was asked to participate in a game that I had no friggin clue about. I was asked to shoot rats as my buddy mined. So..I was thinking I am going to be in some cave with a miners lantern strapped to my head blasting rats with a shotgun...yeah. There were no real tutorials, you started with basically fckall, it took quite a while to replace a damn cruiser, meaning when you lost something...it really friggin hurt. We had learning skills we had to train, then you had to train up advanced learning skills to just get to where you folks start now. That's right, we had to train two sets of skills which soaked up about 5 or 6 million SP just to have what you got now. EvE was huge, no warp to zero, selling BM's was an actual business, and a peak night was about 3500 people...sometimes 5000 if FOE, M0O or anyone else was having a shindig. Goons could not fit a Caracal let a lone a rifter worth a damn, yet they blotted out the sun with them and Crime and Punishment was actually a place where you had crime and punishment threads. You had to rely on wit, persistence and you spoke to others that had been doing it for a while, you listened to them so as not to repeat the mistakes they made. Although it is a sand box type concept, freedom of choice is great, but eating the cat poop is not smart and normally people will tell you that. However, you do still to this day see players coming into the game with a head full of "DON"T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY MAH GAME!!!!" and you sit back and watch them go to the corner of the sandbox and eat the pile of crap they were warned not to eat. Then they come wailing to :CCP: whining about "NO ONE TOLD ME!! THIS IS NOT FAIR!!!" Now as far taking two years to be able to do anything properly is utter bullshit. I had newbies (notice there is a difference between newbies and noobs.) that wiht less that 3 months in game, was able to get on fleets and garner a nice k/m count. on the inverse, I had guys with characters that dated 2003 that couldn't fit a crusier let alone fly one worth a damn. The misconception that someone like me in a frigate based on how many SP's I have will out gun and run someone with 10 million SP's in the same frigate is flat out crap. You can only cram so many usable SP's in a Frigate or any other class of ship in this game. Figure it out, look at how many SP's it will require someone to get into an cruiser, like a Stabber, and see how long it takes to acually make that sucker sing. I can guarantee you it is not 2 years. Or even a HAC, STAT Cruiser. hell the Training path for a Carrier is less than Two years and you are talking capitol ships for chist sake. And able to fly it well is less than a year. So I am missing the issue about all this. The problem is that I see the "Casual gamer" crap come out as an excuse why peeps don't want to do something or unwilling to learn. I run a 20 mil company, 6 kids, 1 wife and 2 ex wives, one grand son, lions club, American Legion, Member of Chamber of Commerce, ASTM board, 90 minute commute one way (Houston traffic), play golf on weekends, Go shooting at the Gun Club after, spend time with my family and yet....I am able to log in, hop into something, x' up and go push someones poop in...or have mine pushed in. OR I can sit for a while and shoot the **** with my mates and chill. Or make some isk or whatever. The "Casual gamer" thing is utter bullcrap. I know a fckton of players that have jobs, school and shockingly a social life. The issue is time management. It is a skill, it will help you, learn it.
Daerrol Furtherance. 96	Posted - 2015.04.14 13:47:15 - [26] - Quote I am a casual gamer. I play for maybe 2 hours a night. It's great fun. I do mostly solo stuff. I die to hardcore players a lot. I die to softcore players a lot. Often I kill myself. Did I mention it's great fun? Sometimes I get on and marathon for a few hours, yes. Other days I don't log in at all except to update some market orders and made haul something to Thera (Yesterday).
Schmata Bastanold Imperial Collective Unsettled. 3036	Posted - 2015.04.14 13:51:16 - [27] - Quote Baaldor wrote: The "Casual gamer" thing is utter bullcrap. I know a fckton of players that have jobs, school and shockingly a social life. Quoted 4 Teh TRUTH! Btw: 3rd time is a charm or however you say it in English? :) Invalid signature format
Omar Alharazaad Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 1505	Posted - 2015.04.14 14:13:21 - [28] - Quote ^^^^ It's not how much time you have to devote to the game, it's the effort you're willing to put forth to get the most out of the time that you spend. I've had a single hour's worth of EVE time give me a month's worth of pleasure because I saw an opportunity, jumped at it, and followed through to reap the rewards. Yes, skills take time, but if a player sets goals and focuses on achieving them then they can achieve plenty in a short time so long as they keep the scope of their desires to within the limits of their capabilities. I keep a thoughtgun next to the bed, fully loaded with nerdshot. Just in case.
Aphsala Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 44	Posted - 2015.04.14 15:17:08 - [29] - Quote I'm a player that believes Eve Online needs a 2nd server with different rules and a complete reworking of the skill system. It is my belief that only a new server running alongside the old will be the way forward for eve as any change to SP/corps/sov etc etc will only be meet with hostility
Baaldor Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion. 282	Posted - 2015.04.14 15:41:04 - [30] - Quote Aphsala wrote: I'm a player that believes Eve Online needs a 2nd server with different rules and a complete reworking of the skill system. It is my belief that only a new server running alongside the old will be the way forward for eve as any change to SP/corps/sov etc etc will only be meet with hostility Why thank you mr/ms/it troll alt for this informative and unqualified post.
Afrigael Hax Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.04.14 16:08:23 - [31] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Afrigael Hax wrote: I played World of KungFuPandaland for 12 years. Found your hangup. Eve =/= WoW. This is why I despise MMOs that aren't EVE (or sometimes Darkfall). Most mmos rap people in cotton , protecting them from anything bad (or interesting) while whispering in their ears "you are the center of the universe here" while in reality players are just hamsters on a 'leveling' wheel. EVE is great because even with all the "safety" crap ccp has added over the years (I swear, playing EVE on a new computer is just playing 'safety pop ups online'), EVE still basically expects a player to be an adult and have some initiative in order to 'progress'. The OP is a warning for CCP. No matter how safe you make the game, how many pop ups you add to warn them that they are at risk of generating content (lol), no matter how much stuff you give a new player in the beginning, no matter if you use gimmicks like 'simulators' and 'dojos' etc, you are STILL not going to increase new player retention. It's because those things you do (like the NPE) are side issues, what turns people off is the CORE of EVE online: - the universal non-consensual pvp - the single shard (can't switch servers to avoid people you don't like) with no instancing "ie can never be safe from people you don't like) - the general game and combat mechanics that reward people with social skills/tolerances (more people is always better, which means people who can't or won't make friends can only go so far before hitting a glass ceiling) -The time based skill system (which "robs" players of the faux sense of 'achievement' they get from other games, which imo is why misplaced themepark players in EVE spend so much time leveling up that Raven so they have something tangible to look at as "I did this") and many more. Almost all of the core of EVE would have to change to attract more players because gamers in general need lots of 'fluffing' and hand holding. And if you have to change the core of your product to get people to use it, it means either your product idea was flawed in the 1st place, or you should have been happy with your niche market share and improved in that direction instead of 'mass appeal'. by the way I havent played WoW since that expansion came out, many years ago ... anyway thats a very interesting viewpoint well put forward, but I don't agree ...its the core game that attracts new players and keeps them in the game. I really don't think you need to change that much, the content is already there and its all excellent, just do some reorganisation so the career missions follow some kind of logical order and give the slower players a simple mechanic to reverse a few of their worst mistakes or not, let the player decide for himself ...ITS NOT ABOUT CONTENT ITS ABOUT PERCEPTIONS and oddly it appears that its also about wether you guys want more players in the game, which I wrongly assumed any sensible person would prefer. MMO's are a business product and all businesses require customers, however you guys seem to see Eve as some kind of hobby club and maybe it is ... so maybe I'm wrong and I apologise for assuming I was entering a discussion with people who actually love the game like I do and want to see it evolve. What do I know I'm a newb... question question question it's the only way to find out the truth. Thank you, very interesting despite the fact some of you seem to be reading a different script from what I actually wrote.
DaReaper Net 7 1926	Posted - 2015.04.14 16:23:40 - [32] - Quote Baaldor wrote: Afrigael Hax wrote: Now that's interesting Jonah and makes sense, but you are basically saying that success is just a matter of opinion. I was just trying to give you guys a heads' up on what its like being a newb these days and my worries about the future of my favorite game. What I was actually saying about the rookie game is that its bad practice to take away the customer's choice of how they want to play the game and the rate at which they learn how to play the game, that's basically anti-marketing and in my opinion bad game design. If you like playing the game drunk with your pants on your head, or so stoned you can barely see the screen ...that's your business. If you want to take hours pondering every little thing that's up to you. I prefer to play as a roleplayer, playing an indestructible spirit who sees getting blown up occasionally or trapped in wormholes as an inconvenience.. that means I make mistakes all the time and learn from my mistakes. It's costly and is usually quite inconvenient, especially if you get ganked in nullsec, but I like exploring the map and trying out new ideas myself to see what works for me. Most of these guys are telling me 'this is how to play the game', which is the complete opposite of what sandbox games are supposed to be about....freedom of choice. Let me give you a little insight from someone that has not played for 20 years of MMO and this game was my first. I am "older" as in, i get to qualify for AARP. I have been doing this since May of 2005, and was asked to participate in a game that I had no friggin clue about. I was asked to shoot rats as my buddy mined. So..I was thinking I am going to be in some cave with a miners lantern strapped to my head blasting rats with a shotgun...yeah. There were no real tutorials, you started with basically fckall, it took quite a while to replace a damn cruiser, meaning when you lost something...it really friggin hurt. We had learning skills we had to train, then you had to train up advanced learning skills to just get to where you folks start now. That's right, we had to train two sets of skills which soaked up about 5 or 6 million SP just to have what you got now. EvE was huge, no warp to zero, selling BM's was an actual business, and a peak night was about 3500 people...sometimes 5000 if FOE, M0O or anyone else was having a shindig. Goons could not fit a Caracal let a lone a rifter worth a damn, yet they blotted out the sun with them and Crime and Punishment was actually a place where you had crime and punishment threads. You had to rely on wit, persistence and you spoke to others that had been doing it for a while, you listened to them so as not to repeat the mistakes they made. Although it is a sand box type concept, freedom of choice is great, but eating the cat poop is not smart and normally people will tell you that. However, you do still to this day see players coming into the game with a head full of "DON"T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY MAH GAME!!!!" and you sit back and watch them go to the corner of the sandbox and eat the pile of crap they were warned not to eat. Then they come wailing to :CCP: whining about "NO ONE TOLD ME!! THIS IS NOT FAIR!!!" Now as far taking two years to be able to do anything properly is utter bullshit. I had newbies (notice there is a difference between newbies and noobs.) that wiht less that 3 months in game, was able to get on fleets and garner a nice k/m count. on the inverse, I had guys with characters that dated 2003 that couldn't fit a crusier let alone fly one worth a damn. The misconception that someone like me in a frigate based on how many SP's I have will out gun and run someone with 10 million SP's in the same frigate is flat out crap. You can only cram so many usable SP's in a Frigate or any other class of ship in this game. Figure it out, look at how many SP's it will require someone to get into an cruiser, like a Stabber, and see how long it takes to acually make that sucker sing. I can guarantee you it is not 2 years. Or even a HAC, STAT Cruiser. hell the Training path for a Carrier is less than Two years and you are talking capitol ships for chist sake. And able to fly it well is less than a year. So I am missing the issue about all this. The problem is that I see the "Casual gamer" crap come out as an excuse why peeps don't want to do something or unwilling to learn. I run a 20 mil company, 6 kids, 1 wife and 2 ex wives, one grand son, lions club, American Legion, Member of Chamber of Commerce, ASTM board, 90 minute commute one way (Houston traffic), play golf on weekends, Go shooting at the Gun Club after, spend time with my family and yet....I am able to log in, hop into something, x' up and go push someones poop in...or have mine pushed in. OR I can sit for a while and shoot the **** with my mates and chill. Or make some isk or whatever. The "Casual gamer" thing is utter bullcrap. I know a fckton of players that have jobs, school and shockingly a social life. The issue is time management. It is a skill, it will help you, learn it. Bows Times like this i wish i coudl like a post more then once. Have a million likes OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
DaReaper Net 7 1928	Posted - 2015.04.14 16:28:41 - [33] - Quote Aphsala wrote: I'm a player that believes Eve Online needs a 2nd server with different rules and a complete reworking of the skill system. It is my belief that only a new server running alongside the old will be the way forward for eve as any change to SP/corps/sov etc etc will only be meet with hostility The day eve splits into shards, past what the fing Chinese gov demanded (i', ok with serenity, i wished it did not exist, i'd love to play with the Chinese players but meh) is the day i'll retire from eve. and i think others will as well. its what makes this game unique. And to the person who said 'well if ccp had a million subs they'd have to shard' i'm not sure thats true. eve can prolly handle 1m subs, hell its peak was at 65k at one time and they had around 400k subs and it was still holding its own. 1m subs would net ccp around 200m a year, which is more then enough to toss into making huge updates to the code (not the hardware, eve's limiting factor is the unscalable sections of the old code) and it will be fine. Anyway rambling OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25082	Posted - 2015.04.14 16:41:45 - [34] - Quote Afrigael Hax wrote: I'm sure there are many possible solutions to the 'skill gap perception problem' of new players, I can think of 3 straight off the top of my head .. 1. rookie-learning implants for 6 months or less (that are replaced when lost like the rookie ships). 2. background skillsets dependant on the character background that enable a 6 month toon to do something reasonably competently (doesn't mean the player will be competent though). 3. character skill remap service (which will bring more real money into the game which is good for any MMO business, more money = better wages=happier staff=better service to you and longevity for the game). The game already has (or had, in the case of #2, which was removed because of how awful an idea it was) all of those. None of them solve the perception problem. You don't solve that problem by pandering to the myth and make it true; you solve it by educating about the fact that the skill gap is a myth. Quote: The beginner game is always going to be harsh in eve Not always, no. You just have to be a bit lucky to find a good corp that actually caters to and cares for newbies. Quote: Most of these guys are telling me 'this is how to play the game', which is the complete opposite of what sandbox games are supposed to be about....freedom of choice. No, it is not even on the same axis, so it's about as far away from GÇ£complete oppositeGÇ¥ as you can get. All they're telling you is how they have used their freedom of choice GÇö inspiration if you like. Also, you need to remember that this is a multiplayer sandbox, which means it is about something quite different than your regular sandbox. With that tiny addition, GÇ£sandboxGÇ¥ no longer means that you get to do what you want; it means everyone gets to do what they want, which will include them doing things (possibly to you) that you don't want them to do. You are free to choose to do anything, but actually success in doing what you choose will not come for free GÇö you have to force your choice onto others since what you want will conflict with what they want. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
SKINE DMZ Stay Frosty. A Band Apart. 485	Posted - 2015.04.14 16:48:05 - [35] - Quote I am a casual player. I fly ships I was able to fly in my first weeks of the game. I agree with Baaldor even though I am not that old. I do not agree with OP. I disagree
DaReaper Net 7 1929	Posted - 2015.04.14 16:51:12 - [36] - Quote Ok, i'll ask this, to everyone who thinks there is a skill point gap. When you get hired at a new company, or you try a new hobby, o you **** and moan thats its not fair that someon who started doing what you are 10 years ago is better, faster, and makes more at what you are currently doing then you do? Or do you try to learn form there experence and keep doing it anyway? Cause this right here is eve. Skill points are just a number. IMO, the only way to remove this stupid argument, is to remove skill points and make them into soemthign different. You should not be able to just jump into everythign at once, but people who watch there skill points tick as some type of 'look i advanced' is dumb. Eve is as i said before, liek real life. You gain knowladge, or skill points, as you learn to do things, you then gain experence that can;t be mesaured as you do things. Getting a degree is getting skill points. Its the paper you show a prospective employer. The Work Experence, is your own personal growth, this can not really be shown on paper, and is more about you then anything else. This is the thinking 'casuals' need for eve. I'll say it again: SKILL POINTS DO NOT MATTER. I had the isk and sp for a nyx, i bought one, and lost it a month later. Why? cause i was not fully practiced in how to use it, how it worked, and i paniced. i would up havign a russian alliance member lose his mom too, because he came to help, landed wrong, and was poorly fit. An experenced pilot would not of died, but because i had not flown my nyx into combat with proper support to surive my first batte it died. Skill points, mean, nothing. Just because i CAN fly soemthing, doesn;t mean i will be able too effectivly. I'm a server/data center tech by trade, so i deicded to fix my wifes ipad's broken screen, never disasembled an ipad before.. and well made it worse. I can fix electronics, but never messed with ipad, so i just gained te personal experence of going 'oops that did not work right' This is eve. This is how it works. We are not a 'hey i can use the flaming sword of hades cause i'm lvl 50 now! awesome!" picks up sword kicks ass game Eve is a "hey i can use the flaming sword of hades now! i had been using this simple short sword... the hades sword is a broad swoard... i never used one before.. but i'll try it..." picks it up and sets yoruself on fire "oops.. held it wrong... lets try that again" type of game. OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
Afrigael Hax Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2015.04.14 19:46:58 - [37] - Quote DaReaper wrote: Ok, ...... game. Yep that's definitely better put than the way you said it before, but I left those kind of games because quite frankly they're boring to me. Realistically, hmmm I probably played them for years because of my friends if I'm honest about it... and I was actually working for them as a CSA. Someone was talking about milestones earlier and in the last few weeks, I've had a number.. mined arkenor (never even seen it when I played before), saw a huge fleet somewhere south of Derelik, uncloaked my reaper and waved at them and some dude from Pandemic Legion came over and gave me 12million and told me to go buy a decent ship ...personal moments that mean something to me .. the first time I killed a ganker or did a sleeper site in my cane. I was never scared ever in real combat, yet being chased around Frulegur by Waycharles nearly gave me a coronary... I get it.. its a weirdly personal experience a lot of the time. This is my old toon, he was never meant to be anything but a 'try-out' and when I came back online none of my cane fits worked, so it was an easy decision to start from scratch again. The thing that struck me was how incredibly irritating the start of the game is to many players and thought Id share that observation. I didn't know I'd get branded as the 'World of Warcraft Ass' or I wouldn't have bothered my arse. Also I didn't realise that the vast majority of you actively don't want new players in the game. I'm still a bit baffled by that but I suppose eventually I'll understand it. Anyway good job... that's cleared up a few things for me.
Glathull Warlock Assassins 1015	Posted - 2015.04.14 20:07:31 - [38] - Quote Hmmm, guy shows up here kvetching about skill points. Writes many walls of text. Has much experience with MMOs. But listen, guys, this is not about him! Absolutely not at all in any way about him! This guy is trying to make the game better for all the millions of buddies he has who would love this game if it weren't for those pesky skills. Did I get that right? I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
DaReaper Net 7 1931	Posted - 2015.04.14 20:09:27 - [39] - Quote Afrigael Hax wrote: DaReaper wrote: Ok, ...... game. Yep that's definitely better put than the way you said it before, but I left those kind of games because quite frankly they're boring to me. Realistically, hmmm I probably played them for years because of my friends if I'm honest about it... and I was actually working for them as a CSA. Someone was talking about milestones earlier and in the last few weeks, I've had a number.. mined arkenor (never even seen it when I played before), saw a huge fleet somewhere south of Derelik, uncloaked my reaper and waved at them and some dude from Pandemic Legion came over and gave me 12million and told me to go buy a decent ship ...personal moments that mean something to me .. the first time I killed a ganker or did a sleeper site in my cane. I was never scared ever in real combat, yet being chased around Frulegur by Waycharles nearly gave me a coronary... I get it.. its a weirdly personal experience a lot of the time. This is my old toon, he was never meant to be anything but a 'try-out' and when I came back online none of my cane fits worked, so it was an easy decision to start from scratch again. The thing that struck me was how incredibly irritating the start of the game is to many players and thought Id share that observation. I didn't know I'd get branded as the 'World of Warcraft Ass' or I wouldn't have bothered my arse. Also I didn't realise that the vast majority of you actively don't want new players in the game. I'm still a bit baffled by that but I suppose eventually I'll understand it. Anyway good job... that's cleared up a few things for me. The thing is, the NPE is WAY better then when i started in 04. Back then it was a "oh you want to play eve online? great! heres how you doggy paddle. got that? aweseome" boot comes and kicks you into the deep end "btw tis pool has sharks... good luck! Aurora out!" OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25082	Posted - 2015.04.14 20:14:57 - [40] - Quote Afrigael Hax wrote: Also I didn't realise that the vast majority of you actively don't want new players in the game. I'm still a bit baffled by that but I suppose eventually I'll understand it. Why eventually? All you have to do is realise right now that you just made that idiotic nonsense up right on the spot as a feeble defence against people not agreeing with you. Quote: This is my old toon, he was never meant to be anything but a 'try-out' and when I came back online none of my cane fits worked, so it was an easy decision to start from scratch again. The thing that struck me was how incredibly irritating the start of the game is to many players and thought Id share that observation Here's the thing: what makes it irritating is your preconceptions and the poor decisions you've made based on those ideas. You are making assumptions about the game and not adjusting them to the reality of how things actually work, rather than spending time to learn. In this, you are not offering anything new, but you are repeating tons of received (read: fabricated and mythical) knowledge that get circulated among new players because they don't know any better. That is why people so vociferously disagree with you: because they have heard it all before and have long since realised what a load of swill these complaints GÇö to say nothing of the many proposed GÇ£solutionsGÇ¥ to them GÇö are. DaReaper wrote: The thing is, the NPE is WAY better then when i started in 04. Back then it was a "oh you want to play eve online? great! heres how you doggy paddle. got that? aweseome" boot comes and kicks you into the deep end "btw tis pool has sharks... good luck! Aurora out!" Actually, the official description is GÇ£here's a Rubik's cube, go **** yourselfGÇ¥GÇª GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
DaReaper Net 7 1931	Posted - 2015.04.14 20:15:30 - [41] - Quote Glathull wrote: Hmmm, guy shows up here kvetching about skill points. Writes many walls of text. Has much experience with MMOs. But listen, guys, this is not about him! Absolutely not at all in any way about him! This guy is trying to make the game better for all the millions of buddies he has who would love this game if it weren't for those pesky skills. Did I get that right? i understand what he is saying, hes redoing thing as a newbie, and seeing what he thinks are issues. And hearing other newbies say the same thing. But the issue is not with eve. Thats all there actually is. The problem with eve is this, no oher mmo, none, zip, zero, noda, comes even close to what eve does. That is both its greatness and its curse. People who, as i said above, play 'roun around kill stuff with sticks, levle up, now buy a sword and use it perfectly' type games don;t understand that eve is not like that. They think "well a battleship is the biggest ship they got, it should eb able to kill everything, cause in wow my lvl 90 tank coudl own everyone... so thats what i will go get right now!" But thats not even close to how it works. The only way eve will ever be main stream is a complete redesign to be more in line with a traditional mmo. This will have the effect of killing what makes eve great. or if everyoen who tried eve has this mental shift from "this is a game" to "this is a game but i have to play it like its real life" Every game that is not a traditional mmo and has lvls and skill points will have this problem. I think its why the game that shall not be named seems to be working away from sp's. But that too will have issues as people shift to new thinkings. Anyway. OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
Tipa Riot Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 256	Posted - 2015.04.14 20:32:05 - [42] - Quote IMO EvE is the most casual friendly game I played so far ... because it let my char progress without being logged in, the parallel universe of New Eden and its stories exist without me. There is no regrets not being able to play, it keeps things interesting and there is always the forum. Though what I have to admit is, that I probably skipped some frustration by starting real PvP not before I was competitive with one hull in-game skill-wise a couple of months in the game. But I had fun before doing missions and the arcs, exploration, mining gas in WH etc. The scripted activities can easily keep you busy for the time it needs to train up your PvP skills if you are new to the game. The skill-gap .... you definitely can do a lot of things quite well without much skill training, level 3 is accomplished in no time. But limited skills certainly restrict your ability to succesful solo PvP, regardless of your RL skills. So you have to join a group or bring some skill discipline (focus on one hull) and patience. Again casual players are in good shape here, because they skill faster in relation to their playtime, IMO. I'm my own NPC alt.
BrundleMeth Caldari Provisions Caldari State 415	Posted - 2015.04.14 21:15:57 - [43] - Quote Afrigael Hax wrote: Wall of misery... Yeow... Everyone here has more patience than I do. Not reading that wall of non existent paragraphs. But just glancing through it I see a huge whine... I hope you're quitting...soon...
Afrigael Hax Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2015.04.14 23:08:51 - [44] - Quote BrundleMeth wrote: Afrigael Hax wrote: Wall of misery... Yeow... Everyone here has more patience than I do. Not reading that wall of non existent paragraphs. But just glancing through it I see a huge whine... I hope you're quitting...soon... Feel like a bigger man now do ya? all you ever do is bitchy remarks ...sad
Glathull Warlock Assassins 1015	Posted - 2015.04.14 23:32:34 - [45] - Quote DaReaper wrote: Glathull wrote: Hmmm, guy shows up here kvetching about skill points. Writes many walls of text. Has much experience with MMOs. But listen, guys, this is not about him! Absolutely not at all in any way about him! This guy is trying to make the game better for all the millions of buddies he has who would love this game if it weren't for those pesky skills. Did I get that right? i understand what he is saying, hes redoing thing as a newbie, and seeing what he thinks are issues. And hearing other newbies say the same thing. But the issue is not with eve. Thats all there actually is. The problem with eve is this, no oher mmo, none, zip, zero, noda, comes even close to what eve does. That is both its greatness and its curse. People who, as i said above, play 'roun around kill stuff with sticks, levle up, now buy a sword and use it perfectly' type games don;t understand that eve is not like that. They think "well a battleship is the biggest ship they got, it should eb able to kill everything, cause in wow my lvl 90 tank coudl own everyone... so thats what i will go get right now!" But thats not even close to how it works. The only way eve will ever be main stream is a complete redesign to be more in line with a traditional mmo. This will have the effect of killing what makes eve great. or if everyoen who tried eve has this mental shift from "this is a game" to "this is a game but i have to play it like its real life" Every game that is not a traditional mmo and has lvls and skill points will have this problem. I think its why the game that shall not be named seems to be working away from sp's. But that too will have issues as people shift to new thinkings. Anyway. I understood what he was saying too. I just thought he was being a whiney, disingenuous b**** about it. :) I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Afrigael Hax Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2015.04.15 00:40:24 - [46] - Quote .[/quote] I understood what he was saying too. I just thought he was being a whiney, disingenuous b**** about it. :) [/quote] fair enough .. I'm not really a man of words .. and I probably was being a whiney bastard
Omar Alharazaad Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 1507	Posted - 2015.04.15 00:46:51 - [47] - Quote I made a little doll of Gary Gygax that I stab pins into whenever I see threads like this. Unfortunately I believe he is beyond my reach. WTB services of an evil cleric of at least 14th level. I keep a thoughtgun next to the bed, fully loaded with nerdshot. Just in case.
Harrison Tato Yamato Holdings 342	Posted - 2015.04.15 04:01:45 - [48] - Quote SIrera Artrald wrote: Afrigael Hax wrote: In my case I'm lucky if I get to play for a few hours late in the evening when my kids are in bed and my wife is watching some stupid film about mermaids or whatever. Tell your wife I'm sorry. In your case I think you'd be lucky if she didn't run for the hills. Maybe spend less time trying to get away from her to play a video game and more time with this person you've, you know, married, you might even discover you have a few common interests. As long as she knows where the kitchen is I don't see a problem.
Wobblypops Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.04.15 04:03:13 - [49] - Quote I see what you're saying and I agree with you Afrigael Hax but you're going to be bombarded buy all the **** riders in this forum.
Harrison Tato Yamato Holdings 342	Posted - 2015.04.15 04:03:13 - [50] - Quote DaReaper wrote: 1) there is no skill gap problem. This is what people who come here form Wow and other games with the wrong mind set think. Skill points mean nothing in eve. You get a little advantage in some things, but honestly not a whole lot. Yeah, I was flying an Ishtar on my first day. Oh wait......
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25083	Posted - 2015.04.15 05:54:20 - [51] - Quote Harrison Tato wrote: DaReaper wrote: 1) there is no skill gap problem. This is what people who come here form Wow and other games with the wrong mind set think. Skill points mean nothing in eve. You get a little advantage in some things, but honestly not a whole lot. Yeah, I was flying an Ishtar on my first day. Oh wait...... Fun fact: on your first day, you can fly a ship that will make Ishtars cry. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Vorll Minaaran Centre Of Attention Middle of Nowhere 44	Posted - 2015.04.15 06:26:44 - [52] - Quote Quote: Afrigael Hax wrote: Also I didn't realise that the vast majority of you actively don't want new players in the game. We all love to have more new players. More players=more content. But we dont need players who dont "get EVE" and want to change our game to another copy of WoW. Most players coming with this mindset wouldnt create content, they would be the content and then ganked, scammed and leaving in rage. Bittervets saw these "proposals" countless times and reacting more aggressively when the million+1st thread comes. Storytime: When my brother and I started playing MMOs, we decide to try out different games. He started to play WoW I started to play EVE. We lived in the same flat that time, and watched the other playing. I did the old tutorials, mined ore, did lvl1-lvl2 missions. On my second day in EVE, he asked me to make a char for him and on his 6th day of WoW he left WoW forever and came to EVE. We are both here since.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 23619	Posted - 2015.04.15 08:05:22 - [53] - Quote DaReaper wrote: And to the person who said 'well if ccp had a million subs they'd have to shard' i'm not sure thats true. eve can prolly handle 1m subs, hell its peak was at 65k at one time and they had around 400k subs and it was still holding its own. 1m subs would net ccp around 200m a year, which is more then enough to toss into making huge updates to the code (not the hardware, eve's limiting factor is the unscalable sections of the old code) and it will be fine. That would be me, I wasn't referring to subs, I was referring to actual people playing the game at the same time. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Eve Solecist Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1915	Posted - 2015.04.15 08:25:38 - [54] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: DaReaper wrote: And to the person who said 'well if ccp had a million subs they'd have to shard' i'm not sure thats true. eve can prolly handle 1m subs, hell its peak was at 65k at one time and they had around 400k subs and it was still holding its own. 1m subs would net ccp around 200m a year, which is more then enough to toss into making huge updates to the code (not the hardware, eve's limiting factor is the unscalable sections of the old code) and it will be fine. That would be me, I wasn't referring to subs, I was referring to actual people playing the game at the same time. Well ..... let's be honest here. I remember a dev saying what I am thinking as well. If they had a sudden, unforeseen major success and a few 100k people subscribe ... ... and stay ... ... then they'd be in deep trouble. snickers xD The worst nightmare is a sudden jump in subscription numbers ... ... because even though the hardware can hold quite a few people per system ... ... the fact that nodes have several systems can cause lots of trouble. New/more hardware would be needed FAST! This one is one of my better posts. You should see the others .... "I've tried to give up making sexual innuendos. But it's hard, so hard." -RoAnnon Ron Gilbert made me cry.
Vorll Minaaran Centre Of Attention Middle of Nowhere 44	Posted - 2015.04.15 08:37:23 - [55] - Quote Eve Solecist wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: DaReaper wrote: And to the person who said 'well if ccp had a million subs they'd have to shard' i'm not sure thats true. eve can prolly handle 1m subs, hell its peak was at 65k at one time and they had around 400k subs and it was still holding its own. 1m subs would net ccp around 200m a year, which is more then enough to toss into making huge updates to the code (not the hardware, eve's limiting factor is the unscalable sections of the old code) and it will be fine. That would be me, I wasn't referring to subs, I was referring to actual people playing the game at the same time. Well ..... let's be honest here. I remember a dev saying what I am thinking as well. If they had a sudden, unforeseen major success and a few 100k people subscribe ... ... and stay ... ... then they'd be in deep trouble. snickers xD The worst nightmare is a sudden jump in subscription numbers ... ... because even though the hardware can hold quite a few people per system ... ... the fact that nodes have several systems can cause lots of trouble. New/more hardware would be needed FAST! This unlikely situation wouldnt that bad. In 2011 CCP Yokai wrote about EVE capabilities, should be way better now. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4862063#post4862063
Yarda Black Militaris Industries Northern Coalition. 643	Posted - 2015.04.15 08:50:22 - [56] - Quote I'll share one of my n00b moments with you lot. For some reason they're still quite vivid in my memory. On day 1 I was a miner. Something bad happened to me that day , but that's not relevant to this discussion. While flying back to station to grab my Badger to pick up the containers of Veldspar, I saw a very cool looking ship on the undock. It looked industrial, big and very effective. I had no idea what it was so I used a tactic I read on the forum: "When in doubt, right-click". It was a Hulk. So what does Yarda n00b do ? a) Cry, whine and get depressed about not being able to buy the ship, let alone fly it? b) Come up with a plan to get into a Hulk? Since I'm here, the answer is clear ofcourse, but I hope the point is made. That Hulk undocking the moment I flew to station was a content generator. Not willingly (as miners usually aren't willing content creators), but he/she provided me with a goal right then and there. For the next months, I kept mining and got an Osprey, Retriever and eventually a Hulk. At which point a new plan was needed. So I flew a Retriever into Fountain for my first 0.0 experience in a corp there. But that's another (explosive) story. EVE requires you to come up with your own narrative, plans and goals. People that can't do that and/or feel there's some "proper way" of playing instead of just playing, wont stay.
Eve Solecist Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1919	Posted - 2015.04.15 08:56:27 - [57] - Quote Thanks Voril ... but why did you link to a post which links there ... ... instead of linking there directly? xD Will check up on it. :) This one is one of my better posts. You should see the others .... "I've tried to give up making sexual innuendos. But it's hard, so hard." -RoAnnon Ron Gilbert made me cry.
Eve Solecist Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1919	Posted - 2015.04.15 09:01:57 - [58] - Quote All that infkrmation is outdated. This one is one of my better posts. You should see the others .... "I've tried to give up making sexual innuendos. But it's hard, so hard." -RoAnnon Ron Gilbert made me cry.
Vorll Minaaran Centre Of Attention Middle of Nowhere 44	Posted - 2015.04.15 09:21:10 - [59] - Quote Eve Solecist wrote: All that infkrmation is outdated. On linking: sorry, I was too lazy. Old info, yes, but there is no actual one from CCP. It was long before of the recent code refactoring efforts, TQ got new hardware since then, so we should assume it is better now. I think those blades were on the Fanfest Acution. BTW, if any CCP Virtual World Operations team member read it, pls give us actual info.
Lost Greybeard Drunken Yordles 571	Posted - 2015.04.15 09:26:38 - [60] - Quote I think perhaps you should pass on Eve and save those subscription fees for a remedial English class, mate. I struggled valiantly but half of that didn't parse at all and the other half read like you just smoked more crack than the typical human heart can handle.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai 3458	Posted - 2015.04.15 10:25:40 - [61] - Quote Quick & dirt fix: hand out a "gratuity" of 1.8 milion SP (= 2,500 sp/hour x 24 hours x 30 days) free to allocate, plus one free "skill remap" whenever the player pays the first month of subscription. Usable only once per new account (to limit "instant-alt" farming). Good idea, bad idea? Wait until CCP is desperate enough about losing players who can't understand why it takes 2 days of Iddling in Real Time to as much as finish the tutorials. The Greater Fool Bar_ is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! _
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25083	Posted - 2015.04.15 15:57:46 - [62] - Quote Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Quick & dirt fix: hand out a "gratuity" of 1.8 milion SP (= 2,500 sp/hour x 24 hours x 30 days) free to allocate, plus one free "skill remap" whenever the player pays the first month of subscription. Usable only once per new account (to limit "instant-alt" farming). Good idea, bad idea? Wait until CCP is desperate enough about losing players who can't understand why it takes 2 days of Iddling in Real Time to as much as finish the tutorials. Doesn't help new players, only old ones. It's effectively the same as the old GÇ£professionGÇ¥ starts (back when picking race/ancestry/school was a thing), only with even greater opportunity to pick the wrong thing because you have no idea what you're doing. The problem is one of fundamentally incorrect perception. It cannot be fixed through mechanical means, and should not be fixed by pandering to that perception. It can only be fixed by educating those who hold it about the fact that their belief is wrong. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai 3458	Posted - 2015.04.15 17:26:27 - [63] - Quote Tippia wrote: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Quick & dirt fix: hand out a "gratuity" of 1.8 milion SP (= 2,500 sp/hour x 24 hours x 30 days) free to allocate, plus one free "skill remap" whenever the player pays the first month of subscription. Usable only once per new account (to limit "instant-alt" farming). Good idea, bad idea? Wait until CCP is desperate enough about losing players who can't understand why it takes 2 days of Iddling in Real Time to as much as finish the tutorials. Doesn't help new players, only old ones. It's effectively the same as the old GÇ£professionGÇ¥ starts (back when picking race/ancestry/school was a thing), only with even greater opportunity to pick the wrong thing because you have no idea what you're doing. SP remapping in particular has such a hideously large potential for abuse that the only real way to make it GÇ£safeGÇ¥ is to impose so many restrictions on it that it will never be of any use, at which point you might as well not bother to implement it to begin with. The problem is one of fundamentally incorrect perception. It cannot be fixed through mechanical means, and should not be fixed by pandering to that perception. It can only be fixed by educating those who hold it about the fact that their belief is wrong. Yes, the perception that a new player should find something interesting to do in a new game just by start playing it rather than be forced to wait for two days until the game allows him to play is so incorrect... The Greater Fool Bar_ is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! _
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25083	Posted - 2015.04.15 17:36:14 - [64] - Quote Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Yes, the perception that a new player should find something interesting to do in a new game just by start playing it rather than be forced to wait for two days until the game allows him to play is so incorrect... The perception that you have to wait for two days is indeed incorrect. If they do experience such issues, it's probably something they should take up with their bank or ISP since that's a more likely cause. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Afrigael Hax Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.04.15 20:07:12 - [65] - Quote Do you play this game for free now? If you are not paying for it, who do you think pays for it? The nice folk at CCP deserve good wages, job security, health plans, big bonuses for the amazing job they do ... they don't deserve having to deal with idiots who are holding back the success of the game because they can't differentiate between the real world and the game world. You are this games biggest asset but ironically also its greatest enemy. I've never been on a forum before but I expected to at least be talking to grown-ups.
Harrison Tato Yamato Holdings 343	Posted - 2015.04.16 00:53:19 - [66] - Quote Tippia wrote: Harrison Tato wrote: DaReaper wrote: 1) there is no skill gap problem. This is what people who come here form Wow and other games with the wrong mind set think. Skill points mean nothing in eve. You get a little advantage in some things, but honestly not a whole lot. Yeah, I was flying an Ishtar on my first day. Oh wait...... Fun fact: on your first day, you can fly a ship that will make Ishtars cry. And do 15 DPS
Harrison Tato Yamato Holdings 343	Posted - 2015.04.16 00:57:46 - [67] - Quote Tippia wrote: Harrison Tato wrote: DaReaper wrote: 1) there is no skill gap problem. This is what people who come here form Wow and other games with the wrong mind set think. Skill points mean nothing in eve. You get a little advantage in some things, but honestly not a whole lot. Yeah, I was flying an Ishtar on my first day. Oh wait...... Fun fact: on your first day, you can fly a ship that will make Ishtars cry. Oh and are you out on a day pass or were the guards distracted? Please name the ship that you can SOLO against an ISHTAR on day one. If you are talking about tackling for a somebody else I can just type encouragement into local and have as much fun.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25085	Posted - 2015.04.16 02:18:55 - [68] - Quote Harrison Tato wrote: Oh and are you out on a day pass or were the guards distracted? I conclude that you have already figured out the immensity of your ignorance about the game since you have to come out guns blazing with the personal insults rather than admit that, oops, you made a laughably pitiful excuse for an attempted point. Quote: Please name the ship that you can SOLO against an ISHTAR on day one. Moving the goalposts does not change the fact that on your first day, you can fly a ship that will make Ishtars cry. I'm sorry if you never learned this, but that is precisely why incorrect perceptions are the only problem here, and why education is the only solution. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Afrigael Hax Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.04.16 03:30:15 - [69] - Quote I don't see how my internet connection in any way could affect skill times in the game. When I came on this forum asking for help you guys choose to be rude bullying assholes. Last night it upset me because I have a lot of stuff going on in real life and was feeling vulnerable, but today I see you're just pathetic bullies because you have brains and talents and yet you still choose to act like that. People with sentience choose who they are in life, you're not like the bullying assholes that I've met in the army or police, who always crumble when the nerdy guy stands up to them... you're worse. You can literally be anything when you have a brain in your head and you choose to be dickheads. Unfortunately I'm not a big enough man to feel sorry for you, although I probably should, but you've pissed me off and I have zero tolerance for bullies and folk who act like assholes. To the couple of grown ups who privately said they were going to go try to pretend they're noobs and see if what I said was actually that off-putting ..I've just realised It's kinda pointless because it's like asking someone who has been a cyclist for years 'why is it so hard to learn to ride a bike and is the wheel supposed to be flat like that?' Anyway if it turns out that you agree with me about the noob-game then go talk to someone from CCP and don't even bother with these morons. Finally thank you CCP guy for the blueprints, you're a star (whoever you are) .. I was trying to find something to thank my friend in the game who has been supporting me and he'll appreciate that small gift because he loves cov-ops stuff. I wish I knew you in real life I'd certainly buy you a drink and roll you a big smoke. Cheers dude you guys rock.
Rastafarian God 76	Posted - 2015.04.16 04:01:13 - [70] - Quote DUDE People that have been playing EVE for awhile are not like your normal MMO player. Playing EVE changes you. Ive been playing since 2009, most of that time with 2 and now 3 non plexed accounts. People that play EVE, or at least the ones that understand it, develop a prison mentality. No one is to be trusted, everyone is your enemy, and you need to find a gang to be part of to get by. If you are seen as being weak, you will be eaten alive. Thats why you never see chat in local out of trade hubs and if someone doesn't know you they are not usually friendly. EVE is somewhere between the wild west and the Caribbean when ships had sails but set in space. This can turn people into pricks at times. ALL of the regular forum posters have been playing for awhile. Most of them are only on here for entertainment. Entertainment in EVE usually means explosions and making people cry. It translates over to the forums sadly. People posting here know the game well and love the game. If you make a mistake, they will attack you. It that right? in game most of the time, but in a forum, not always. Im actually one of the nicer, more friendly people around. I consider highsec off limits without a wardec but anywhere else, ill attack you if you make yourself vulnerable and I don't know you. You just need to ask the right people and, yes, HTFU as well. You'd be better off asking questions in a noob corp or scope within the game then asking things here unless you learn to take things with a grain of salt.
Afrigael Hax Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.04.16 04:37:50 - [71] - Quote Cheers for the advise... I have actually met loads of nice folk... its cool.
Rastafarian God 76	Posted - 2015.04.16 05:16:47 - [72] - Quote Afrigael Hax wrote: Cheers for the advise... I have actually met loads of nice folk... its cool. Thats good and I'm glad to hear it. Just remember the forum is NOT the game. Although ti mindset is similar. Actually, most of the people that I play online with that I havnt met in real life I met in EVE. Benn 6 years now. We have eachothers phone numbers and know each other as well as real life friends. Stick with it
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25085	Posted - 2015.04.16 11:53:19 - [73] - Quote Afrigael Hax wrote: I don't see how my internet connection in any way could affect skill times in the game. It can't. Unlike skills and SP, however, it is something that can force you to way two days before you can play the game, same as your bank if they decide that your decision to suddenly send a bunch of money to Iceland looks suspicious. But beyond those two, there really isn't anything that actually supports the perception that you have to wait before you play. Quote: When I came on this forum asking for help you guys choose to be rude bullying assholes. Last night it upset me because I have a lot of stuff going on in real life and was feeling vulnerable, but today I see you're just pathetic bullies because you have brains and talents and yet you still choose to act like that. They choose to act like that because you are being rude, abusive, and belligerent. No-one is bullying you GÇö people are correcting you. There is a difference. If you have issues that prevent you from engaging in constructive conversation, then you might want to consider refraining from posting since it will only end in one way and you will be as much to blame for that end as everyone else. Quote: Finally thank you CCP guy for the blueprints, you're a star (whoever you are) .. I was trying to find something to thank my friend in the game who has been supporting me and he'll appreciate that small gift because he loves cov-ops stuff. You'll probably want to clarify this (or edit it out) before it gets blown up to scandalous proportionsGÇª Rastafarian God wrote: You just need to ask the right people and, yes, HTFU as well. You'd be better off asking questions in a noob corp or scope within the game then asking things here unless you learn to take things with a grain of salt. EhhhGÇª No, probably not. The n00b corps have a long-standing tradition of working as echo chambers for the kind of ill-conceived ideas and erroneous perceptions that are at play here. While there may be the odd helpful person there, there's also an awful lot of players who have never ventured outside the NPC-corp sphere and who have never bothered or needed to learn some pretty fundamental things about the game. What he actually needs is to find a newbie-friendly player corp where he will receive some proper guidance. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Afrigael Hax Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.04.16 18:47:48 - [74] - Quote Tippia wrote: The problem is one of fundamentally incorrect perception. It cannot be fixed through mechanical means, and should not be fixed by pandering to that perception. It can only be fixed by educating those who hold it about the fact that their belief is wrong. Good we finally got the answer I was looking for .... tbh that was a lot more traumatic than I expected, it was 'like pulling teeth'. I apologise to anyone who got upset there. Anyway now we know what's wrong someone can figure out a solution. Most of the folk who won't play that I know think Eve is a completely different game from what it really is. I thought about it and the game has ever been harsh to me, can't think of one example. You die in games all the time I don't understand why folk get so upset about it, all you have to do is fly a boat that you can replace and if you get upset about losing implants then don't wear them. If some players are bored at the start waiting for skills give them something simple and repetitive to do while they are waiting, that'll give them the feel for flying about. Or whatever, you guys are the think-tank not me... just bear in mind that some folk take longer to catch on to games than others.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25085	Posted - 2015.04.17 00:15:56 - [75] - Quote Afrigael Hax wrote: Good we finally got the answer I was looking for .... tbh that was a lot more traumatic than I expected, it was 'like pulling teeth'. You got that answer on page one, and no, it wasn't what you were looking for. Any trauma and teeth-pulling is your own doing by being abusive and pointlessly argumentative. Quote: Anyway now we know what's wrong someone can figure out a solution. This was done over half a decade ago. You're late, and your whinging is old and tired. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Afrigael Hax Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.04.17 02:24:26 - [76] - Quote Oh stop being an ass ... and thank you.
Harrison Tato Yamato Holdings 343	Posted - 2015.04.17 07:51:37 - [77] - Quote Afrigael Hax wrote: Oh stop being an ass ... and thank you. That's just Tippia. He didn't post for six months or so. That is why I figured he escaped.
flakeys Arkham Innovations 2819	Posted - 2015.04.17 08:12:55 - [78] - Quote Afrigael Hax wrote: Quote: you can do virtually everything in eve in about 30 min of training per your occupation. To do it well or better takes both skill points and time doing it - yes indeed very well said, but you have to actually understand that.... you understand it, I understand it but most new players don't. You got the game from the first day..good for you (pat on the head). All this amazing new content and changes aren't going to be worth **** in the wind if there are no new players coming into the game. Get your finger out and get it sorted. Anyone who starts playing this game and jumps onto the forums or looks at eve guides will understand that immediatly and there is 'the problem' .You yourself stated you never visited the forums and many new players don't either and that's all fine and dandy in other games but in eve you need to do your homework and you need to do it often and thoroughly.Since i started playing eve i tend to go to the forums of any new game i plan to try before i even start it , just to get a feel of what the people who are playing have to say about the game and what the good and bad sides of the game are. There is a special newbie section on the forums and older players give tips and advices there all the time.But if you don't ask the question then you don't get the answer .. or you get the answer yourself months later.Add to that that there are a big amount of new player friendly groups who will also, explain this to their new members. We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
flakeys Arkham Innovations 2819	Posted - 2015.04.17 08:32:53 - [79] - Quote Rastafarian God wrote: DUDE People that have been playing EVE for awhile are not like your normal MMO player. Playing EVE changes you. Ive been playing since 2009, most of that time with 2 and now 3 non plexed accounts. People that play EVE, or at least the ones that understand it, develop a prison mentality. No one is to be trusted, everyone is your enemy, and you need to find a gang to be part of to get by. If you are seen as being weak, you will be eaten alive. Thats why you never see chat in local out of trade hubs and if someone doesn't know you they are not usually friendly. I think that mostly is just people being indifferent with each other mostly.I have been playing eve since 2004 and back then everyone was talking to each other in local and it wasn't because eve was such a nice mylittleponyland.It changed over the years and mostly these days local chat is indeed empty or just people trying to 'get to you'.A shame really , i allways loved some local chat and still do it though these days if you get any response it usually boils down to '** you you killed me you worthless ' or ' you i killed you you worthless **'. You see that in all kinds of games , i play fifa15 a lot on the xbox one and most of the times if someone has a headset on they'll just curse and call you names.I talked with a nice scottish guy this week about the game itself while playing against each other and he was as amazed as i was to meet someone who isn't either calling you a cheater for winning or calling you a wanker for loosing after. It might have to do with online gaming in general being something special at the start and slowly becoming the standard for any half decent game.But that's just the feeling i have about it. We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
flakeys Arkham Innovations 2819	Posted - 2015.04.17 08:47:28 - [80] - Quote Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Tippia wrote: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Quick & dirt fix: hand out a "gratuity" of 1.8 milion SP (= 2,500 sp/hour x 24 hours x 30 days) free to allocate, plus one free "skill remap" whenever the player pays the first month of subscription. Usable only once per new account (to limit "instant-alt" farming). Good idea, bad idea? Wait until CCP is desperate enough about losing players who can't understand why it takes 2 days of Iddling in Real Time to as much as finish the tutorials. Doesn't help new players, only old ones. It's effectively the same as the old GÇ£professionGÇ¥ starts (back when picking race/ancestry/school was a thing), only with even greater opportunity to pick the wrong thing because you have no idea what you're doing. SP remapping in particular has such a hideously large potential for abuse that the only real way to make it GÇ£safeGÇ¥ is to impose so many restrictions on it that it will never be of any use, at which point you might as well not bother to implement it to begin with. The problem is one of fundamentally incorrect perception. It cannot be fixed through mechanical means, and should not be fixed by pandering to that perception. It can only be fixed by educating those who hold it about the fact that their belief is wrong. Yes, the perception that a new player should find something interesting to do in a new game just by start playing it rather than be forced to wait for two days until the game allows him to play is so incorrect... Tippia is right there though .More started SP is something wich allready has been added as well as other feautures to make it easier yet the way new players view on the skillsystem and it's 'slow progression' has allways been the same.Granting more SP or anything of that matter will not help , not even if you give them 10M SP extra .Though i am sure the vest would love that for their alts . We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Afrigael Hax Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 4	Posted - 2015.04.17 13:59:04 - [81] - Quote I think my problem was I had too many contradictory ideas floating around in my head about how to procede with what really was actually bugging me...why don't my fekin friends play this game? ...they'd love it..its so frustrating. I do know what to do now. I'm going to make a short vid of me doing cool stuff with my new 2 week old toon , put it on dropbox and send emails with an invite on the vid to join me for a couple of months in the game and hang out. Its true when you come into this game you have huge misconceptions about lots of stuff, the 'moment of enlightenment' that I was thinking I (and pretty much every player I talked to) was actually the moment that you realise everything you've read or watched is basically bullshit.. the game's only harsh if you think it is and the skill learning speed is just something you get used to. How do you change the perceptions of folk out there when there's so much rubbish being spoken in reviews and on utube ..long term players wittering on about how harsh the game is etc. This is how bad that programming is...I've been off doing stuff already but still thinking 'this game is holding me back'. That's kinda disturbing actually that I couldn't see that. Thanks for all the good advise. If any of my friends join me I'll just ask them to pick a frigate and a cruiser and I'll send them the relevant skillbooks to get straight into doing some interesting stuff. I think that might work.
Cara Forelli Green Skull LLC 1034	Posted - 2015.04.17 14:08:06 - [82] - Quote Afrigael Hax wrote: I'm going to make a short vid of me doing cool stuff with my new 2 week old toon , put it on dropbox and send emails with an invite on the vid to join me for a couple of months in the game and hang out. Just use this one, honestly. Though I've found it's always easier to make friends in-game than try to bring RL people in. Adventures New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: *House Forelli* Titan's Lament
Afrigael Hax Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 4	Posted - 2015.04.17 15:41:00 - [83] - Quote Cara Forelli wrote: Afrigael Hax wrote: I'm going to make a short vid of me doing cool stuff with my new 2 week old toon , put it on dropbox and send emails with an invite on the vid to join me for a couple of months in the game and hang out. Just use this one, honestly. Though I've found it's always easier to make friends in-game than try to bring RL people in. Cheers thats a cool vid..but I think seeing me actually doing stuff would make more of an impression
flakeys Arkham Innovations 2821	Posted - 2015.04.17 16:31:14 - [84] - Quote Afrigael Hax wrote: ...why don't my fekin friends play this game? ...they'd love it..its so frustrating . Eve is not a game for everyone.No scratch that , eve is a game only a few ''selected'' enjoy.I have had many friends who played mmorpgs but none of them liked eve , yet somehow i loved it enough to play for 10 years wich is something i would have never held possible.Look at the vid posted above and listen to the excitement people are playing this game , that is the beauty of eve IF you enjoy it you'll find there is no other game that can give you the ''emotions'' eve has and that is not just meant for the pvp aspect. Don't waste too much time trying to pursuade friends to play eve , rather spend that time enjoying the game for what it is and make friends here in the process. We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Afrigael Hax Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 4	Posted - 2015.04.17 18:19:53 - [85] - Quote Ya that's good advise man.. but just had another disturbing thought .. I've obviously been playing this game all wrong.. you guys have made it clear even to me that I can't truely play this game as a roleplayer, you just have to read up on stuff that your toon wouldn't know. The disturbing thought is ...a clueless noob (ie me) with NO direction whatsoever in his skill learning has produced this toon which can easily farm wormhole combat sites in his cane and earn enough isk to buy a plex every 2 months even on my limited gaming time ... Personally I find that a bit worrying because it has brought me right back to the 'who's going to pay for the game if everyone's playing for free?'
flakeys Arkham Innovations 2822	Posted - 2015.04.18 07:16:57 - [86] - Quote Afrigael Hax wrote: Personally I find that a bit worrying because it has brought me right back to the 'who's going to pay for the game if everyone's playing for free?' Since you stated this a few times i am going to assume troll now because why the hell would someone have to worry about this ... We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Afrigael Hax Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 4	Posted - 2015.04.18 13:50:32 - [87] - Quote flakeys wrote: Afrigael Hax wrote: Personally I find that a bit worrying because it has brought me right back to the 'who's going to pay for the game if everyone's playing for free?' Since you stated this a few times i am going to assume troll now because why the hell would someone have to worry about this ... Yeah I should just shut up ... but it seems to me we are entering Eve's 'Golden Age'. You know you've seen it before...suddenly everything seems to come together in a game, its amazing for a few years and then boom, suddenly you are running around in an empty landscape. It might not happen with Eve as somebody pointed out its taken many years to get to this point and it might take decades to croak. Why would I worry..its simple ...new players pay for this game ..where's the new players?.. its not rocket science dude.
Vorll Minaaran Centre Of Attention Middle of Nowhere 47	Posted - 2015.04.18 19:20:13 - [88] - Quote Not only new players play for the game. I'm paying with cash, because I can earn the subscription fee with less time in work than I have to grind ISK. 15$ not that much, could be even lower when you pay 1 year sub. And I'm only a not-so-well payed worker in the public sector. When I login, I want to have fun not working on my second job only for to be able to buy another PLEX and work again for the next month.
Afrigael Hax Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 4	Posted - 2015.04.19 00:40:48 - [89] - Quote Vorll Minaaran wrote: Not only new players play for the game. I'm paying with cash, because I can earn the subscription fee with less time in work than I have to grind ISK. 15$ not that much, could be even lower when you pay 1 year sub. And I'm only a not-so-well payed worker in the public sector. When I login, I want to have fun not working on my second job only for to be able to buy another PLEX and work again for the next month. Ya well said dude. If I double my gaming time I could earn a plex a month farming wormhole rats, but that's not fun to me and I don't have the time. Tbh maybe it would've been better to ask for ideas that could generate cash for ccp and yet improve the game for us. I'd love shedloads of cosmetic T1 frigate skins I could buy from the eve store, sadly us noobs love useless but shiny stuff and will spend real money for it.

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