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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1188
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 10:59:14 -
[181] - Quote
@Dustpuppy.
Even if you could web it into warp, it's still dead unless you have a POS in system. Can't go to station as it would be bubbled. Ditto gates. Can't safe log off because of webs. Can't really bounce safes because you can be scanned and landed on in seconds. Can't cloak. Can't tank. Even a pos is questionable as it can be prescanned and bubbled in line with JF.
JF in open space is smoked. Other caps have, you know...slots to help them survive.
I think a lot of people have a) never rolled with caps and b) gravely underestimate the persistence and patience of those who hunt them. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
601
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 11:07:02 -
[182] - Quote
afkalt wrote:@Dustpuppy.
Even if you could web it into warp, it's still dead unless you have a POS in system. Can't go to station as it would be bubbled. Ditto gates.
You'll need to account for the coming Citadel stations when venturing to discuss this topic further.
Cynos won't stay as they currently are.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
113
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 11:27:37 -
[183] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:You'll need to account for the coming Citadel stations when venturing to discuss this topic further. Cynos won't stay as they currently are.
You still haven't learned to discuss and answer questions. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
602
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 11:34:42 -
[184] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:You'll need to account for the coming Citadel stations when venturing to discuss this topic further. Cynos won't stay as they currently are. You still haven't learned to discuss and answer questions.
Let us entertain your redirection then,
Three 60% webs should be sufficient - the Ark for example has the same mass as the Providence, but with significantly better agility, which vastly improves acceleration.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1188
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 12:33:52 -
[185] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:afkalt wrote:@Dustpuppy.
Even if you could web it into warp, it's still dead unless you have a POS in system. Can't go to station as it would be bubbled. Ditto gates. You'll need to account for the coming Citadel stations when venturing to discuss this topic further. Cynos won't stay as they currently are.
And in NPC null? Are they letting them go there? |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
113
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 12:57:44 -
[186] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Let us entertain your redirection then,
Same here, let's entertain you.
After the change anyone flying a JF would require at least 3 instead of 2 active accounts (because webber). The ship would have to announces itself in the system at least 5 seconds before it appears by handing out a warpable signal to anyone. It only could enter the system in open space and have more handicaps than any other ship type. Expensive, slow, no warp core stabs, no cloak, no surprising fits for baits and a big signature radius to make locking, shooting and probing down easier. To top this a big cargo bay would be included so you get a nice reward beside one of those wet dream capital kills on zkillboard.
Well, I understand that you like PVP and you are desperately seeking for more targets because in the current situation you either seem too dumb to find them or they shoot back and as a result you require some help pointing you to the best and defenseless targets.
So I have a proposal: Every ship should receive such a "here I am" tag when entering a system and this tag can be warped at, too. This also applies when entering through a worm hole or when using a safe spot. Cloaking wouldn't remove the tag. Don't cry, just use a small ship which can warp around to avoid enemies. Also any kind of ship should land outside the docking range of a station and be forced to slow boat into it. We also should remove "warp to zero" at the gates to make things even easier for you.
I hope that at some point even you are able to do some PVP and find some targets. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
241
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 16:22:09 -
[187] - Quote
This thread has a lot of people asking loaded questions. What if I there's hostiles on the undock? What if there's a drive-by Titan doomsday? What if I get probed down before I can warp?
It might be helpful to take a few steps back in the logical sequence to figure out how you got to those question. They all seem based on the idea that you NEED to be out there in your big, slow, expensive, defenseless, Tech II, capital class hauler. Well, you don't. EVE survived before you took it upon yourself to be the market upholder in null sec. EVE survived before jump freighters. EVE survived before there were gigantic coalitions and supercapital blobs and fleet doctrines and whatever other justification there is for needing mountains of material to magically disappear in Jita and magically reappear in VFK or wherever it is you take them. And, YOU survived, too.
Now, if you WANT to haul mountains of material from Jita to VFK, or wherever you take it, what mechanisms SHOULD there be in the game to allow you to do that? What mechanisms ARE there in game that allow you to do that? SHOULD those mechanisms be in the game? Are they consistent within the greater paradigm of New Eden?
Instead of telling us that anything will fail besides magical freighter teleportation, perhaps you could tell us why magical freighter teleportation is so successful or how you or we might make the alternatives succeed. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1188
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 17:01:36 -
[188] - Quote
The onus on the proposer of the idea is to prove there is a problem.
I await that proof. These allegedly 'invulnerable' ships have died a half a dozen times this week alone. Caps die wholesale.
So if you might demonstrate, with something strong than 'just because', the actual problem you're solving here that'd be fab.
Note (re)turning areas of space into a desolate third world wasteland because you hate they have nice things isn't a reason either.... |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
994
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 17:09:55 -
[189] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:
Pompous self indulgence
.
The truth and.... JF cynos moving off the station probably won't change much of anything. As always, the smart and cautious will survive... they'll just have to do a little work to get there. The careless and cocky will get what they deserve. What personally irks me is the free ride JF pilots currently have. No risk is BS. The fact that folks actually argue that it NEEDS to be easy AND risk free to allow others to play the game just rubs my fur wrong on a couple of levels (the entitlement thing). Final note - a group of 100 men don't need a leader, a group of 100 men creates a leader. Eve and on a grand scale humanity doesn't need any SPECIFIC leader - the group always provides the leadership it needs in due time. Ahh, another example of, "You're not sandboxing right." Spare us.
It's not that you're not sandboxing right. READ THIS TWICE - THIS ISN'T ABOUT YOU.... AT ALL.
Cynos on a station is a broken part of the sandbox that we are fixing.
It's like this:
My kids sandbox is broken. I get some nails and a new piece of wood to repair the broken part. If you look really really close in the broken corner you see some bugs and a bunch of little ants (you would be one of the little ants) using this small broken portion to move their little ant JF in and out.
You see all the good children step in and out as the sandbox was designed to do. They could trip, fall or skin their knees. They understand the risks and still hop in and play with each other. They have fun interacting with each other. All the while there are these pesky little bugs and ants acting alone in the corner in the broken part JFing their loots in a manner not prescribed by the sandbox manufacturer. If one of the kids want to play with the ants... do the ants play with all the good children?? No, they take their JF into the little crack where no on can interact with them. It's just not right!
So, me the good parent... I fix the broken part of the sand box so all is as the manufacturer prescribed. I'm not even looking at the ants when I repair the broken part. I don't care about them (your just an ant). It's about fixing the sandbox.
Now the ants... OMG the ants. They are up in their little ant arms. "THE SANDBOX WILL BE RUINED" "THE CHILDREN WON'T BE ABLE TO PLAY IF YOU FIX THIS LITTLE HOLE" "THIS IS MADNESS... ANTS DESERVE TO PASS FREELY AND HAVE AN IMMEDIATE OPTION TO NOT INTERACT WITH NO ONE, NO WAY NO HOW!!" and so on. For a hand full of little ants - what a ruckus. You'd think the whole point of the sandbox was to allow ants to JF things around and the children playing in the sand was just an afterthough.
The end?? Well almost... With the sand box repaired and working as designed the occaisional child does occaisionally step on an ant getting around propperly, oh and of course there was that one epic magnifying glass incident. Other than that, most of the good children don't really bother with the ants. They don't even notice. They don't even care about JF and ants. They just play all day in the sand.
The end. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
994
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 17:50:28 -
[190] - Quote
afkalt wrote:The onus on the proposer of the idea is to prove there is a problem.
I await that proof. These allegedly 'invulnerable' ships have died a half a dozen times this week alone. Caps die wholesale.
So if you might demonstrate, with something strong than 'just because', the actual problem you're solving here that'd be fab.
Note (re)turning areas of space into a desolate third world wasteland because you hate they have nice things isn't a reason either....
The problem is almost zero risk to a pilot with reasonable sense taking reasonable precautions.
Caps will die wholesale - something said a zillion times about jump fatigue. I haven't heard anyone complaining about caps using jump gates since jump fatigue was implemented. A few have been lost, sure, but there are no threadnaughts declaring how horrible it is. Caps are now being moved strategically and with forethought. That's the only real change that has come about.
Is that it? You don't want to have to think about it? You just want to flash your ez-pass and drive straight through? All this outcry can't possibly boil down to just plain lazy.... could it? Please please keep telling me you are fighting this not for personal reasons, but on behalf of all the citizens of new eden. Show me your super hero.
(Teckos smuggly flexes and his T-shirt literally explodes of his chest revealing a massive rainbow colored JF tatoo) "FOR THE PEOPLE!!" He begins the chant.... "FOR THE PEOPLE!!" The thousands... no millions of adoring onlookers take up his chant. The sound is both defening and righteous. Louder.... louder.... (Teckos begins to believe the people love him, need him and most of all... they appreciate him)
sniff.... sniff.... what's that burning smell?? "Noooooooo, not the magnifying glass.... noooooooo" |
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1190
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 18:00:02 -
[191] - Quote
Almost zero risk can be attained to any ship given sufficient precautions. You seem to have a problem with their effort level.
It's not a lot different to an alt scouting in a ceptor.
I'm curious, why are you opposed to making JF ~100m along with this? It's a cost more fitting with the risk. It's not even like they have fittings.
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Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1573
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 18:44:39 -
[192] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:This is a game. What is good for an economy is not necessarily what is good for a game.
One of the game's main selling points is its economy. Neck-punch the economy and the game dies.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
995
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 18:55:25 -
[193] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Almost zero risk can be attained to any ship given sufficient precautions. You seem to have a problem with their effort level.
It's not a lot different to an alt scouting in a ceptor.
I'm curious, why are you opposed to making JF ~100m along with this? It's a cost more fitting with the risk. It's not even like they have fittings.
It's not about JF. It's about cynos on stations in docking rings. JF pilots are trying to make this into a crusade against JF. You should be asking why JF skin is so thin compared all the other capital pilots. I think that is valid question at this point.
Take the number of JF complaints and contrast that to the number of other capital pilot complaints. Either there are 100 JF for every capital of another flavor in eve OR JF pilots are a wee bit whiney.
I never said I was opposed to making them 100 m. I am (because it's rediculous), but until just now I've never said that.
Why is there no end to the demands of JF pilots??
1. Jump Fatigue fairy grants major immunity 2. Have to be able to cyno with minimal risk 3. Can you make them cost 100m?
EVE 2019 headlines: Goods are moved from place to place by r-clicking destination and poof magic happens. The only pre-requisite is that 'hauler characters' must posess a CODE hauling permit costing 100m isk. JF pilots are in an uproar as no one uses their services anymore. Massive numbers of JF pilots are being kicked from major alliances for being useless. The JF pilots have formed a lobbying group and are being led by a JF pilot named Teckos. He's been wandering the corridors of Jita 4-4 brandishing a rainbow JF tattoo proclaiming current conditions aren't fair and then going into a longwinded analogy involving ants. Most citizens scurry away from him with confused looks on their faces.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1194
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 19:06:20 -
[194] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: It's not about JF. It's about cynos on stations in docking rings. JF pilots are trying to make this into a crusade against JF. You should be asking why JF skin is so thin compared all the other capital pilots. I think that is valid question at this point.
You reckon maybe it is because a JF has NO combat ability and NO active tank?
Couldn't possibly be that, could it?
A single STABBER could bump, tackle and kill a JF alone. You think a stabber is going to tackle and kill a carrier? Hell even a dread will laugh at its DPS and tank away/refit multiple stabs and jog on.
"Other" capital pilots don't need to horse it all over new eden. "Other" capital pilots have..you know...GUNS and tank. "Other" capital pilots are not the wheels which keep the economy turning. Even CCP acknowledged this, that the economy as she stands today NEEDS the JF concessions - they said they'd like to change it, but the current game doesn't allow it.
Unf**k null economy, then this debate can be had anew.
In the interim, posting melodramatic claptrap doesn't alter the reality that even if you dont like it, the economy today needs these as they are. It doesn't change they're dying on a regular basis despite your efforts to tell everyone they are invulnerable and that somehow taking appropriate precautions to increase safety doesn't apply as a valid tactic because :reasons:. Likewise pointing out that null used to be a pissant backwater you had to drag people to kicking and screaming and suitcase carriers were employed instead is in any way a good reason to go back to that crappy world. |
Titus Veridius
Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder
15
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 20:11:30 -
[195] - Quote
THE EMPRESS NEEDS HER BOAT FINISHED TO DEFEAT THE DRIFTERS!
http://i.imgur.com/myo5mKg.jpg
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5748552#post5748552 |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
612
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 02:45:23 -
[196] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:afkalt wrote:@Dustpuppy.
Even if you could web it into warp, it's still dead unless you have a POS in system. Can't go to station as it would be bubbled. Ditto gates. You'll need to account for the coming Citadel stations when venturing to discuss this topic further. Cynos won't stay as they currently are. And in NPC null? Are they letting them go there?
Go there - you mean the Citadels? They will be deployable everywhere, though I'm uncertain whether the XL ones with Doomsdays are going to become available in NPC nullsec.
Quote:I hazard you guys would be just as unhappy cynoing to 0 at a citadel. Or did you think they'll have enough shooting power to blap a fleet gunning for a JF?
Possibly.
Without the change, it will be just like cynoing into a POS shield. Besides, a whole fleet gunning for the lone JF under Citadel/POS defenses deserves it, if they can execute the plan properly.
The zero cynos can't stay.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 16:39:18 -
[197] - Quote
afkalt wrote:13kr1d1 wrote:Arctic Estidal wrote:This has to be a troll post. It is seriously stupid to be a real suggestion. Only reason it has a lot of people reading it is because Fozzie posted an angry face.
You must not fly a $7b jump freighter if you want to make them easy to get ganked, before you load it up with billions of items.
For everyone in alliances who move items which are not their own, you have now made the jump freighter pilot risk his $7b ship plus all the billions in collateral that he has to put up for the items he is carrying.
So for all the risk, what is the reward? So you can have easier targets because you find PVP to difficult. You now want to fight ships which have no offensive or defensive capabilities. LOL.
All PvP in EvE is consentual. Its far too easy to dock or simply get away if you know when and where to avoid it. There's a million tools to prevent PvP in EvE, there are few tools to ensure it, barring gatecamps. JFs right on top of stations avoid gatecamps. And yet a casual glance over killboards reveals 5 JF kills in the last few days. All out of HS empire. In fact more are dying outside HS empire than in. Evidence suggests that these still die with regularity.
Agreed.
I noted this days ago....but for some people no amount of empirical evidence is enough.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 16:44:48 -
[198] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote: Are we talking about the NEED or the ABILITY to move large volumes of material? Clearly some people think there is a NEED, that it is important, and that we should have a powerful ABILITY to do that.
We are talking about both. There are structures ingame which exceed the cargo volume of a BR (battle cruiser), you need something bigger to move them. And even if the cargo fits you don't want to go into NS and back again with three frigs stored in a BR when you earn only maybe 6 million isk doing this. Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Dustpuppy wrote:Moving high volume goods between low/nullsec and Highsec and within lowsec and nullsec can only be done in a more or less safe way using Jump freighters and their only defense is this cyno/docking game That's just flat out wrong. Moving high volume goods can be done with a regular freighter and safely. It just can't be done in as manhour and manpower efficient a way, but seeing as how this is a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER game . . . that's actually a good thing. Stop thinking in Goons when you think about corp sizes and the amount of pilots they can assign to move goods. If you don't have 50-100 pilots to protect your stuff you will loose it to any gatecamp in Nullsec. You know how ******* easy it is to point the freighter and focus fire on it and how hard it is for your protection fleet to do something against this? Just kick in a bunch of talos which are also used in HS ganking and alpha them away faster than your protectors can kill the attackers. With a 1 billion isk ship (plus multi billion cargo) it's worth it and you will be able to grab the loot because the others don't have a spare freighter to pick up the remains of the wreck
Using one of the biggest corps, alliances and coalitions in the game as your starting point is probably a bad idea. Especially if you are looking to nerf their game. Because if you nerf them, you will absolutely destroy the smaller guys in most cases. Yes, their coalition gives the Goons, et. al. some advantage. At the same time they work for it. I've been in two big alliances/coalitions and managing large numbers of people is problematic. Somehow Goons, et. al. have been able to the cat out of the hat for quite awhile (but not always). Penalizing a group of players (a rather large group) because their leadership have been leading well is not different than penalizing the individual player who also plays well...perhaps even worse.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2930
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Posted - 2015.05.16 16:59:47 -
[199] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:This thread has a lot of people asking loaded questions. What if I there's hostiles on the undock? What if there's a drive-by Titan doomsday? What if I get probed down before I can warp?
It might be helpful to take a few steps back in the logical sequence to figure out how you got to those question. They all seem based on the idea that you NEED to be out there in your big, slow, expensive, defenseless, Tech II, capital class hauler. Well, you don't. EVE survived before you took it upon yourself to be the market upholder in null sec. EVE survived before jump freighters. EVE survived before there were gigantic coalitions and supercapital blobs and fleet doctrines and whatever other justification there is for needing mountains of material to magically disappear in Jita and magically reappear in VFK or wherever it is you take them. And, YOU survived, too.
Now, if you WANT to haul mountains of material from Jita to VFK, or wherever you take it, what mechanisms SHOULD there be in the game to allow you to do that? What mechanisms ARE there in game that allow you to do that? SHOULD those mechanisms be in the game? Are they consistent within the greater paradigm of New Eden?
Instead of telling us that anything will fail besides magical freighter teleportation, perhaps you could tell us why magical freighter teleportation is so successful or how you or we might make the alternatives succeed.
Okay, now expound on this dude. You know how to write something coherent and well thought out? Lets start with this paragraph:
Quote:Now, if you WANT to haul mountains of material from Jita to VFK, or wherever you take it, what mechanisms SHOULD there be in the game to allow you to do that? What mechanisms ARE there in game that allow you to do that? SHOULD those mechanisms be in the game? Are they consistent within the greater paradigm of New Eden?
This says, "I think we should reconsider logistics in New Eden." That is the take away from that paragraph. Okay, fine. What next?
You think you have an idea....well goddamn f***ing go with it you lazy bugger. I am not going to do YOUR for you.
And stop is with this magical nonsense. You come off sounding like an idiot. It isn't magic, well all know precisely how it happens. If we didn't then we could say "magic" but it isn't so its not.
Jesus F***ing Christ, I didn't think I'd have to be posting about how to write in this thread. Think of it this way, you are writing something serious, say an article in a newspaper or for a website that gets lots and lots of readers. Your job is to identify a specific problem, describe why the problem is bad and needs to be addressed now or soon, and what are some reasonable ways to address the problem. So far all we've gotten from you is a solution to....oh wait, no problem has been stated (no, having lots of stuff go from Jita to VFK or wherever is not a problem that is better described as a fact--yes lots of stuff leaves Jita and goes to NS....now why is that bad, or more accurately why is it bad if that movement of stuff quickly via JFs is bad). Then you can start talking about solutions.
Basically you've put the cart before the horse and done a lot of grrrr Goons in this thread. Which as I noted, makes you look foolish.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2930
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Posted - 2015.05.16 17:06:14 -
[200] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Ahh, another example of, "You're not sandboxing right." Spare us. It's not that you're not sandboxing right. READ THIS TWICE - THIS ISN'T ABOUT YOU.... AT ALL.
My God...you do know about the generic "you", right? Well based on that sentence...I guess not.
Serendipity Lost wrote:Cynos on a station is a broken part of the sandbox that we are fixing.
Broken how? Why is it a broken part of the sandbox. You have assumed true that what you should be demonstrating. This is lazy and sloppy and makes you look ignorant.
Yes, I ignored the rest of your post as it was some bizzare metaphor that does not tell us why a cyno within 5k of station is bad.
One guy did try it in this thread and failed. He was arguing economics, but in the end didn't know what he was talking about.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2930
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Posted - 2015.05.16 17:39:45 -
[201] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:afkalt wrote:The onus on the proposer of the idea is to prove there is a problem.
I await that proof. These allegedly 'invulnerable' ships have died a half a dozen times this week alone. Caps die wholesale.
So if you might demonstrate, with something strong than 'just because', the actual problem you're solving here that'd be fab.
Note (re)turning areas of space into a desolate third world wasteland because you hate they have nice things isn't a reason either.... The problem is almost zero risk to a pilot with reasonable sense taking reasonable precautions. Caps will die wholesale - something said a zillion times about jump fatigue. I haven't heard anyone complaining about caps using jump gates since jump fatigue was implemented. A few have been lost, sure, but there are no threadnaughts declaring how horrible it is. Caps are now being moved strategically and with forethought. That's the only real change that has come about. Is that it? You don't want to have to think about it? You just want to flash your ez-pass and drive straight through? All this outcry can't possibly boil down to just plain lazy.... could it? Please please keep telling me you are fighting this not for personal reasons, but on behalf of all the citizens of new eden. Show me your super hero. (Teckos smuggly flexes and his T-shirt literally explodes of his chest revealing a massive rainbow colored JF tatoo) "FOR THE PEOPLE!!" He begins the chant.... "FOR THE PEOPLE!!" The thousands... no millions of adoring onlookers take up his chant. The sound is both defening and righteous. Louder.... louder.... (Teckos begins to believe the people love him, need him and most of all... they appreciate him) sniff.... sniff.... what's that burning smell?? "Noooooooo, not the magnifying glass.... noooooooo"
Well I gues you are finally coming around to stating the problem...finally. Only took 10 pages.
What is the right level of risk? How many JFs should be blowing up? As I showed several days ago, quite a few blow up in just a few days in NS. In fact, based on a cursory glance at the data (i.e. killboards) we can see that most of the JF deaths are in NS. Now, it was a cursory glance and maybe I got a "good day" for NS JF kills. But you are the one who wants to change the game, so go out there and look at the killboards and start compiling some data/evidence for your position.
Okay, so I went to zkillboard because some people are either lazy or just can't figure out math (I know, its hard).
From October 28, 2014 to May 16 2015 (197 days, a bit over half a year) there were 183 Rheas killed in game. Of those, 92 were in either LS or NS. Typically a Rhea dies every 25 hours and 50 minutes.
So the claim of near zero risk strikes me as just errant nonsense and hyperbole by those who want something, but can't think up a legitimate method to argue.
Edit: Oh, and I spot checked 9 of the above Rhea kills for station vs. non-station systems and 7 were station, 2 non-station. So it seems that JFs are getting killed in station systems. I know those pilots must all be drooling morons or something. This cannot happen, zero risk and all that.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2930
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Posted - 2015.05.16 18:02:34 -
[202] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:afkalt wrote:Almost zero risk can be attained to any ship given sufficient precautions. You seem to have a problem with their effort level.
It's not a lot different to an alt scouting in a ceptor.
I'm curious, why are you opposed to making JF ~100m along with this? It's a cost more fitting with the risk. It's not even like they have fittings.
It's not about JF. It's about cynos on stations in docking rings. JF pilots are trying to make this into a crusade against JF. You should be asking why JF skin is so thin compared all the other capital pilots. I think that is valid question at this point. Take the number of JF complaints and contrast that to the number of other capital pilot complaints. Either there are 100 JF for every capital of another flavor in eve OR JF pilots are a wee bit whiney. I never said I was opposed to making them 100 m. I am (because it's rediculous), but until just now I've never said that. Why is there no end to the demands of JF pilots?? 1. Jump Fatigue fairy grants major immunity 2. Have to be able to cyno with minimal risk 3. Can you make them cost 100m? EVE 2019 headlines: Goods are moved from place to place by r-clicking destination and poof magic happens. The only pre-requisite is that 'hauler characters' must posess a CODE hauling permit costing 100m isk. JF pilots are in an uproar as no one uses their services anymore. Massive numbers of JF pilots are being kicked from major alliances for being useless. The JF pilots have formed a lobbying group and are being led by a JF pilot named Teckos. He's been wandering the corridors of Jita 4-4 brandishing a rainbow JF tattoo proclaiming current conditions aren't fair and then going into a longwinded analogy involving ants. Most citizens scurry away from him with confused looks on their faces.
Because apparently you are just not getting that the New Eden economy has come to rely on the JF. Would the economy survive with less reliance on the JF? Maybe...but that is not one of the game's selling points. The economy is almost entirely player driven. Nerfing the economy, when there has been no argument put forward it needs nerfing strikes me as foolish.
And this nerf will impact all of the economy, not just NS and to a lesser extent LS, but also HS. While NS needs HS for low ends, and either moon goo a region cannot produce, HS also needs NS for moon good and high ends. Right now I'd estimate JF losses in LS/NS to about 5 trillion ISK/ year (so much for that "near zero" risk statement...don't you just hate it when facts interfere with the narrative).
More over, people often whine about the blob, coalitions (Goons in particular), the blue donut, etc.. But, with this change having more people might be one strategy people turn too. Bringing a freighter out of deep NS....having a fleet in a couple of the systems might be a really good strategy.
Oh and sorry Serendipity for ruining your "zero risk" mantra. What can I say, I'm a data driven kind of guy.
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
241
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Posted - 2015.05.17 04:34:41 -
[203] - Quote
"If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****." You can also tire them with tedium.
I hope you understand that we can all see what you're doing and I personally find it insulting to my intelligence, but in the interest of making you look like the deceptive person that you are being, I will go ahead and address a few of your "points".
Teckos Pech wrote: 1. Using one of the biggest corps, alliances and coalitions in the game as your starting point is probably a bad idea. 2. Basically you've put the cart before the horse and done a lot of grrrr Goons in this thread. 3. As I showed several days ago, quite a few [jump freighters] blow up in just a few days in NS. In fact, based on a cursory glance at the data (i.e. killboards) we can see that most of the JF deaths are in NS. 4.So the claim of near zero risk strikes me as just errant nonsense and hyperbole 5.the New Eden economy has come to rely on the JF. 6. Right now I'd estimate JF losses in LS/NS to about 5 trillion ISK/ year 7.people often whine about the blob, coalitions (Goons in particular), the blue donut, etc.
1. This is not about Goonswarm. 2. This is not about Goonswarm. 3. From the last 10 days on zkillboard (May 6 - May 16), the number of jump freighter kills in null / the total number of jump freighter kills are: Rhea 1/10; Ark 0/8; Anshar 3/7; Nomad 0/0. So, either your data is **** or YOU are ****. 4. Did I mention that no Nomads have died in the last 10 days according to zkillboard? 5. It's nice of you to word it that way. It makes clear that New Eden's economy didn't always rely on jump freighters. I wonder what the New Eden economy would come to rely on if jump freighters magically disappeared. (Pun intended.) 6. We've already established that your data is ****. Your estimations are worthless. Furthermore, 5 trillion out of a possible . . . what? What is that 5 trillion as a percentage of the total jump freight? 7. This is not about Goonswarm.
Thank you. Come again. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
621
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Posted - 2015.05.17 06:19:12 -
[204] - Quote
Damn, data does hurt.
+1 Mayhaw
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2930
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Posted - 2015.05.17 06:29:03 -
[205] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:"If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****." You can also tire them with tedium. I hope you understand that we can all see what you're doing and I personally find it insulting to my intelligence, but in the interest of making you look like the deceptive person that you are being, I will go ahead and address a few of your "points". Teckos Pech wrote: 1. Using one of the biggest corps, alliances and coalitions in the game as your starting point is probably a bad idea. 2. Basically you've put the cart before the horse and done a lot of grrrr Goons in this thread. 3. As I showed several days ago, quite a few [jump freighters] blow up in just a few days in NS. In fact, based on a cursory glance at the data (i.e. killboards) we can see that most of the JF deaths are in NS. 4.So the claim of near zero risk strikes me as just errant nonsense and hyperbole 5.the New Eden economy has come to rely on the JF. 6. Right now I'd estimate JF losses in LS/NS to about 5 trillion ISK/ year 7.people often whine about the blob, coalitions (Goons in particular), the blue donut, etc.
1. This is not about Goonswarm. 2. This is not about Goonswarm. 3. From the last 10 days on zkillboard (May 6 - May 16), the number of jump freighter kills in null / the total number of jump freighter kills are: Rhea 1/10; Ark 0/8; Anshar 3/7; Nomad 0/0. So, either your data is **** or YOU are ****. 4. Did I mention that no Nomads have died in the last 10 days according to zkillboard? 5. It's nice of you to word it that way. It makes clear that New Eden's economy didn't always rely on jump freighters. I wonder what the New Eden economy would come to rely on if jump freighters magically disappeared. (Pun intended.) 6. We've already established that your data is ****. Your estimations are worthless. Furthermore, 5 trillion out of a possible . . . what? What is that 5 trillion as a percentage of the total jump freight? 7. This is not about Goonswarm. Thank you. Come again.
You were the one posting about Goons. You were a little snot about it too. And now you get on your high horse, "Oh no, it isn't about Goons!" So were you lying then or are you lying now?
Note, I clearly said LS/NS. And I limited it to the Rhea. Also, I went from October 28th to May 16th. So, I guess we know you can't figure out dates as well as math.
Did I mention Nomads? No.
Well since we can't use carriers as psuedo-carriers probably nothing. The supply of high ends would drop of significantly as would the supply of moon goo. Good luck in HS getting T2 modules, the prices would rise dramatically.
Considering you can't read plain English you'll have to forgive me if I don't take your assessment of the data I posted, because you are too lazy and incompetent to do it yourself, for much more than a fart in the wind.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2930
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Posted - 2015.05.17 06:30:55 -
[206] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Damn, data does hurt.
+1 Mayhaw
You do realize he can't even read. Note I wrote, quite clearly LS/NS. Considering people often have to go through LS to get to NS...and that there are many, many stations in quite a few LS systems he completely whiffed it.
But then again, as I noted, for some people no amount of empirical evidence will sway them from their dogmatic views. You are clearly one of them.
Oh, and I did a quick look through zkillboard and nomads done't show up on many kills even in HS let alone NS and LS for the period I covered for Rheas. So...is it a shock that there were no nomads in the much smaller subset of time that Mayhew covered? Well...not really if they either don't die as often or are not as popular.
I mean **** dude, you have to look at these kinds of things. But that's okay the world needs innumerates too...I guess.
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
621
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 06:34:49 -
[207] - Quote
Nomads are not jump freighters.
CCPlease give Sandcrawler II spaceship. (a+ç -á-¦ -ƒ+ä-£ -í-¦)a+ç
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2930
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Posted - 2015.05.17 06:44:10 -
[208] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:"If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****." You can also tire them with tedium. I hope you understand that we can all see what you're doing and I personally find it insulting to my intelligence, but in the interest of making you look like the deceptive person that you are being, I will go ahead and address a few of your "points". Teckos Pech wrote: 1. Using one of the biggest corps, alliances and coalitions in the game as your starting point is probably a bad idea. 2. Basically you've put the cart before the horse and done a lot of grrrr Goons in this thread. 3. As I showed several days ago, quite a few [jump freighters] blow up in just a few days in NS. In fact, based on a cursory glance at the data (i.e. killboards) we can see that most of the JF deaths are in NS. 4.So the claim of near zero risk strikes me as just errant nonsense and hyperbole 5.the New Eden economy has come to rely on the JF. 6. Right now I'd estimate JF losses in LS/NS to about 5 trillion ISK/ year 7.people often whine about the blob, coalitions (Goons in particular), the blue donut, etc.
1. This is not about Goonswarm. 2. This is not about Goonswarm. 3. From the last 10 days on zkillboard (May 6 - May 16), the number of jump freighter kills in null / the total number of jump freighter kills are: Rhea 1/10; Ark 0/8; Anshar 3/7; Nomad 0/0. So, either your data is **** or YOU are ****. 4. Did I mention that no Nomads have died in the last 10 days according to zkillboard? 5. It's nice of you to word it that way. It makes clear that New Eden's economy didn't always rely on jump freighters. I wonder what the New Eden economy would come to rely on if jump freighters magically disappeared. (Pun intended.) 6. We've already established that your data is ****. Your estimations are worthless. Furthermore, 5 trillion out of a possible . . . what? What is that 5 trillion as a percentage of the total jump freight? 7. This is not about Goonswarm. Thank you. Come again.
Oh, and weren't you whining earlier about JFs dying only in HS?
Why, yes you did. Quick, go edit it out before anyone else sees it!!!
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
621
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Posted - 2015.05.17 07:00:34 -
[209] - Quote
That was sarcasm on his part, in that there's more danger of getting footballed and hyperdunked by Catalysts than jumping around with invulnerabilities in 0.0 space.
Occasional station bump doesn't nullify the point.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2930
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Posted - 2015.05.17 07:37:36 -
[210] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:That was sarcasm on his part, in that there's more danger of getting footballed and hyperdunked by Catalysts than jumping around with invulnerabilities in 0.0 space.
Occasional station bump doesn't nullify the point.
Well, as I noted, the data indicate that the risk is fairly evenly split. 92 killed in LS/NS vs. 91 killed in HS. And if you have an emergency cyno while in HS, the risk should be dramatically reduced.
So his sarcasm was completely misplaced and factually wrong.
And you are wrong by calling it the occasional station bump or,...by the same logic the occasional HS gank doesn't nullify the point.
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