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Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
345
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Posted - 2015.05.10 11:17:14 -
[1] - Quote
I see so many jump frieghters in low-sec that jump in right at the undock of a station (and under its guns.) I think for content and station safety reasons all stations should prevents jumps within 10k. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
286
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 11:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
The Eve economy pretty much depends on Freighters and Jump Freighters being 99.9% safe. Do you want everything in the game to cost 10x as much? If you make these ships killable, that's exactly what will happen. |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
345
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 11:26:01 -
[3] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:The Eve economy pretty much depends on Freighters and Jump Freighters being 99.9% safe. Do you want everything in the game to cost 10x as much? If you make these ships killable, that's exactly what will happen.
I would send in a scout before I jumped a freighter in or an escort to meet it. With pings for jump in I think they would still be very safe just not totally safe.
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FireFrenzy
Satan's Unicorns
362
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Posted - 2015.05.10 12:19:45 -
[4] - Quote
You would instead cyno your Jumpfreighters into the deepest safespot you can find and web them into warp straight away then self destruct the cynoship or (not sure if you can) cloak up the recon you're using.
Would make it alot more hassle for not much more "killability" also if you're moving ALOT of money in a jumping ship i have pinged my corporation before and just straight up conquered a lowsec system before for the 10 minutes we needed it as a midpoint cyno... |
Lakotnik
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
8
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Posted - 2015.05.10 12:59:59 -
[5] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:Xequecal wrote:The Eve economy pretty much depends on Freighters and Jump Freighters being 99.9% safe. Do you want everything in the game to cost 10x as much? If you make these ships killable, that's exactly what will happen. I would send in a scout before I jumped a freighter in or an escort to meet it. With pings for jump in I think they would still be very safe just not totally safe.
You do realize most Low-sec systems are camped by BLOPS/Cap teams already right? If timed right, they can even bump you off of station in those 5 seconds you can't dock after a jump.
So I'd say it's another bad idea from people who can't find content. So they want the game nerfed so they can get more juicy kills. The nerve.. |
Poxs62
StarTrucks
Prometheus Allegiance
2
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Posted - 2015.05.10 13:37:46 -
[6] - Quote
silly idea for the reasons below
the only time i would consider somthing like this was if we went back to the days of not being able to warp to 0
So you fancy that then, no more warp to 0 jump, no more warp to 0 in any system, not allowing bookmarks on the gates...
Because basically your saying that JFs (and other capitals) cannot jump (which is their safer version of warp) to 0, then nor should any ship be allowed to enjoy losing all your ships that will cost FAR FAR more because they cannot be safely carried around the universe...
.
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Xequecal
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
287
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 14:36:13 -
[7] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:Xequecal wrote:The Eve economy pretty much depends on Freighters and Jump Freighters being 99.9% safe. Do you want everything in the game to cost 10x as much? If you make these ships killable, that's exactly what will happen. I would send in a scout before I jumped a freighter in or an escort to meet it. With pings for jump in I think they would still be very safe just not totally safe.
Freighter escort ops in the days before JFs were literally the worst form of "content" this game has ever seen, let's not bring that **** back, please. |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
345
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 14:40:39 -
[8] - Quote
Lakotnik wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:Xequecal wrote:The Eve economy pretty much depends on Freighters and Jump Freighters being 99.9% safe. Do you want everything in the game to cost 10x as much? If you make these ships killable, that's exactly what will happen. I would send in a scout before I jumped a freighter in or an escort to meet it. With pings for jump in I think they would still be very safe just not totally safe. You do realize most Low-sec systems are camped by BLOPS/Cap teams already right? If timed right, they can even bump you off of station in those 5 seconds you can't dock after a jump. So I'd say it's another bad idea from people who can't find content. So they want the game nerfed so they can get more juicy kills. The nerve..
No idea. I fly though dozens of empty low-sec systems every day. I know that people jump freighters into Beke and Leran all day long with almost nobody in system. |
Reppyk
The Black Shell
739
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 14:47:11 -
[9] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:I see so many jump frieghters in low-sec that jump in right at the undock of a station (and under its guns.) I think for content and station safety reasons all stations should prevents jumps within 10k. I support this product.
I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK.
I AM A LOWSEC GANKER, HIGHSEC SCUM, NULLSEC BASTARD, WORMHOLE INVADER.
Welcome to, welcome to, welcome to my scramble. GÖÑ
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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
12757
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Posted - 2015.05.10 15:54:09 -
[10] - Quote
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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Cristl
230
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Posted - 2015.05.10 16:28:34 -
[11] - Quote
You broke the forums Fozzie  |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Brave Collective
1738
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 17:11:34 -
[12] - Quote
Cristl wrote:You broke the forums Fozzie
As with every time a dev answers with a smiley only :p
Signature Tanking Best Tanking
Exploration Frontier Inc [Ex-F] CEO - BRAVE - Eve-guides.fr
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1078
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Posted - 2015.05.10 17:18:32 -
[13] - Quote
Don't do it Fozzie 
I know it sounds fun but restrain yourself for the good of us all
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
DARKNESS.
49
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Posted - 2015.05.10 17:45:43 -
[14] - Quote
The idea of escorting a freighter through HS is in itself a joke.
The attacker must make the first move before you can defend yourself or concord will simply target you as the aggressor, you cannot take preventative actions by wiping out the obvious camp or bumping mach before they create the problem. Bring a webbing ship? Pray they don't realize this and blap it before you can get your webs off. Bring logi? They'll kill your logi then turn their attention to you. Bring more logi? They have a bowhead/orca/corp hanger full of ships to kill off anything you brought and all the time in the world.
Your only hope of survival is a vigilant scout with a full watchlist and a LS cyno. Nerf cynoing on stations and watch HS industry burn. |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
346
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 18:05:18 -
[15] - Quote
Nasar Vyron wrote:The idea of escorting a freighter through HS is in itself a joke.
The attacker must make the first move before you can defend yourself or concord will simply target you as the aggressor, you cannot take preventative actions by wiping out the obvious camp or bumping mach before they create the problem. Bring a webbing ship? Pray they don't realize this and blap it before you can get your webs off. Bring logi? They'll kill your logi then turn their attention to you. Bring more logi? They have a bowhead/orca/corp hanger full of ships to kill off anything you brought and all the time in the world.
Your only hope of survival is a vigilant scout with a full watchlist and a LS cyno. Nerf cynoing on stations and watch HS industry burn.
What does that have to do with travelling 10K from a cyno to a LS station? You have some webbers in a safe. Jump your freighter in. Web to warp. No escorting required. |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel
The Kadeshi
1409
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 18:31:26 -
[16] - Quote
So, now I need 3 accounts to earn some money? Guess, I need to buy some PC upgrades after all.
Besides of that: 10 km from a Minmatar Tradepost puts the cyno a lot closer to the station (15 km more or less) than 10 km from an Amarr Military Station or Caldari Administrative station (between 30-40 km from the station). What kind of random safety is that?
Also, do you intend to push independent haulers out of business? I know for a matter of fact that I will not allow anyone except for my alts to touch my JF just because either some people simply feel the need for easy content to make their members happy or because some people know how to play the game properly.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
Get Off My Lawn
951
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Posted - 2015.05.10 18:37:10 -
[17] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:Nasar Vyron wrote:The idea of escorting a freighter through HS is in itself a joke.
The attacker must make the first move before you can defend yourself or concord will simply target you as the aggressor, you cannot take preventative actions by wiping out the obvious camp or bumping mach before they create the problem. Bring a webbing ship? Pray they don't realize this and blap it before you can get your webs off. Bring logi? They'll kill your logi then turn their attention to you. Bring more logi? They have a bowhead/orca/corp hanger full of ships to kill off anything you brought and all the time in the world.
Your only hope of survival is a vigilant scout with a full watchlist and a LS cyno. Nerf cynoing on stations and watch HS industry burn. What does that have to do with travelling 10K from a cyno to a LS station? You have some webbers in a safe. Jump your freighter in. Web to warp. No escorting required.
If you take a jump freighter through HS, you always have an exit cyno in low sec, within range of your JF. This is relatively easy to manage on an alt. Your proposal means that each jump freighter pilot needs at least two alts to do stuff. Or friends to escort him. Escort missions suck donkey balls. Ask anyone who has actually done a real freighter escort operation. It's the opposite of fun gameplay.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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d0cTeR9
Astro Technologies
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
160
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Posted - 2015.05.10 19:10:17 -
[18] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:I see so many jump frieghters in low-sec that jump in right at the undock of a station (and under its guns.) I think for content and station safety reasons all stations should prevent jumps within 10k.
#1 We used to run freighter escorts, it was slow and boring as hell. No, no one ever came to attack... they would die so quickly it wasn't fun for anyone. That's why we have Jump Freighters now.
#2 Ships/Items would cost a lot more, do you want to pay 500 mil for a basic battleship? What about 3x more for t2 modules?
#3 Bigger alliances would shrug it off, they have POS's setup and alts/scouts everywhere. |
Onslaughtor
Occult National Security
Phoenix Naval Systems
125
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Posted - 2015.05.10 20:57:43 -
[19] - Quote
Or we could just remove the location limits on deployable cyno jammers. Might make them useful. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
2068
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Posted - 2015.05.10 21:46:13 -
[20] - Quote
The mistake that OP makes is believing that people would still bring their jump freighters into lowsec, lining them up simply for his destructive pleasure. They would not. Lowsec trade would shrivel and die (properly die, not just the slightly dead state it is in now) and nullsec freight would be the province of larger groups only.
So no, I don't think this is a good idea.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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babbie step one
Drop Squad.
Black Legion.
0
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Posted - 2015.05.10 21:53:56 -
[21] - Quote
You can literally light cyno, alt tab, jump JF in, as soon as you see the JF jump in fleet warp him, lock him and web in all under 7 seconds. it's what I do for my caps in stationless systems
(people have to literally do this for supers all the time, and people solo move supers all the time) |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Fidelas Constans
2392
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Posted - 2015.05.10 23:10:14 -
[22] - Quote
babbie step one wrote:You can literally light cyno, alt tab, jump JF in, as soon as you see the JF jump in fleet warp him, lock him and web in all under 7 seconds. it's what I do for my caps in stationless systems
(people have to literally do this for supers all the time, and people solo move supers all the time)
They web their supers... |
elitatwo
Eve Minions
Poopstain Removal Team
664
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 23:33:01 -
[23] - Quote
Nasar Vyron wrote:...Your only hope of survival is a vigilant scout with a full watchlist and a LS cyno. Nerf cynoing on stations and watch industry burn.
There you go, I corrected that for you free of charge.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
DARKNESS.
51
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Posted - 2015.05.10 23:50:43 -
[24] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Nasar Vyron wrote:...Your only hope of survival is a vigilant scout with a full watchlist and a LS cyno. Nerf cynoing on stations and watch industry burn. There you go, I corrected that for you free of charge.
True enough, but people who make these posts typically know nothing outside of HS or neighboring LS that may as well be. I was trying to keep the conversation to a level of their understanding. Don't want to blow their mind with anything outside of the scope of their little world. |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
346
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 00:11:08 -
[25] - Quote
Nasar Vyron wrote:elitatwo wrote:Nasar Vyron wrote:...Your only hope of survival is a vigilant scout with a full watchlist and a LS cyno. Nerf cynoing on stations and watch industry burn. There you go, I corrected that for you free of charge. True enough, but people who make these posts typically know nothing outside of HS or neighboring LS that may as well be. I was trying to keep the conversation to a level of their understanding. Don't want to blow their mind with anything outside of the scope of their little world.
It's too hard. I got it! |
Dr Zug
Deafening Silence Syndiate
0
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Posted - 2015.05.11 00:55:13 -
[26] - Quote
people still use cynos? |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
2070
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 03:00:53 -
[27] - Quote
Personally i would like all low sec and npc null stations be made kickout... heck make a special undock for freighters... i just hate station games
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
CCP Goliath wrote:
Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
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Urziel99
Unified Research Zone
80
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Posted - 2015.05.11 03:42:06 -
[28] - Quote
let's make the stations destructible as well. Starting with any that the OP has assets in. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Brave Collective
1739
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 07:22:01 -
[29] - Quote
Zappity wrote:The mistake that OP makes is believing that people would still bring their jump freighters into lowsec, lining them up simply for his destructive pleasure. They would not. Lowsec trade would shrivel and die (properly die, not just the slightly dead state it is in now) and nullsec freight would be the province of larger groups only.
So no, I don't think this is a good idea.
Nailed it
Signature Tanking Best Tanking
Exploration Frontier Inc [Ex-F] CEO - BRAVE - Eve-guides.fr
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Samillian
Angry Mustellid
The Periphery
777
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Posted - 2015.05.11 08:52:37 -
[30] - Quote
Zappity wrote:The mistake that OP makes is believing that people would still bring their jump freighters into lowsec, lining them up simply for his destructive pleasure. They would not. Lowsec trade would shrivel and die (properly die, not just the slightly dead state it is in now) and nullsec freight would be the province of larger groups only.
So no, I don't think this is a good idea.
This.
Why would I bother undocking my logistics character just to provide a guaranteed 8 bil ISK plus loot pi+¦ata?
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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Discomanco
We pooped on your lawn
Resonance.
126
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Posted - 2015.05.11 09:08:59 -
[31] - Quote
What would this solve? People always find a way to adopt.
Cyno 150-200km off the station, the moment the JF lands on grid, Squadwarp the freighter to an instadock bookmark and web it fast before anyone can react to you.
It only makes it more dangerous for cynos, which seemed pretty hard as it is |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
704
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 09:52:49 -
[32] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:Xequecal wrote:The Eve economy pretty much depends on Freighters and Jump Freighters being 99.9% safe. Do you want everything in the game to cost 10x as much? If you make these ships killable, that's exactly what will happen. I would send in a scout before I jumped a freighter in or an escort to meet it. With pings for jump in I think they would still be very safe just not totally safe.
You think that's enough? Don't you? Let me tell you something, you will also have to keep every system you are jumping from empty.
Because people already have JFs watchlisted and sometimes followed (see Freight Club).
JF paths are very easy to predict and even if they cyno into a safe it's very easy to make logoff trap scanners that will tackle a JF.
I am a hellbent advocate on destruction and content creation, but even I see the need for safe JF jumps. I was pretty displeased by amount of ehp JFs can get after fitting change. This is not going to work because it doesn't make them easier to kill, it essentially makes them free kills.
Tackled JF is dead JF.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1085
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 10:21:03 -
[33] - Quote
Onslaughtor wrote:Or we could just remove the location limits on deployable cyno jammers. Might make them useful.
i like this idea
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
56
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Posted - 2015.05.11 13:21:58 -
[34] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:I am a hellbent advocate on destruction and content creation, but even I see the need for safe JF jumps. This. I'm alright with things able to be somewhat safe as long as they're putting the work and thought in to keep themselves somewhat safe. |
M1k3y Koontz
Bio Troll
Surely You're Joking
751
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 14:01:51 -
[35] - Quote
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:I am a hellbent advocate on destruction and content creation, but even I see the need for safe JF jumps. This. I'm alright with things able to be somewhat safe as long as they're putting the work and thought in to keep themselves somewhat safe.
We do. I could JF to highsec with one cyno, but instead I need two. The one cyno route takes me to Uanzin, a kickout station that's killed many a ship. Sagain has the same problem, Freight Club spent a few months there killing a JF every day because people didnt chose a safer route.
There is thought in staying safe, by chosing stations that wont leave your JF vulnerable.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
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Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems
Templis CALSF
343
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 14:29:55 -
[36] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:The Eve economy pretty much depends on Freighters and Jump Freighters being 99.9% safe. Do you want everything in the game to cost 10x as much? If you make these ships killable, that's exactly what will happen.
Nope, not even close.
There are plenty of other ways to move things. I have 8b worth of stuff at a low sec station, and none of it ever touched a jump freighter.
Great Idea OP. |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel
The Kadeshi
1410
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 14:41:20 -
[37] - Quote
Please tell me, how do I move hundreds of thousands of cubicmeters of T2 component production materials to my Null sec or Low sec production facility to support my alliance? BR by gates? With BLOPSed Blockade Runners? DST? Freighter convoys, where people just drop an Ishtar squad on and murder nothing but the freighter(s)? I'm not even going to start on moving ships and fittings for the ships. I can also bring billions up on billions of assets via Blockade Runners into Null sec, but it is absolutely infeasible to do this if your staging is behind unfriendly areas like it has been the case with my alliance in Delve. Trying to move a BR from Sakht to my station would be guaranteed suicide. Petty low sec logistics, on the other hand, where your only worry in a BR is a smartbomber (spamming gates with cans, biomass and the likes is prohibited after all), is nothing in comparison to my transport volumes and that of other members of my alliance. Even for the supply of my previous corp's alliance, which wasn't nearly as big as THOR, the logistics required several JF of good every week just from me to keep things rolling.
People, who call this idea great, have no idea about the scope of hauling things nor do they value hauling and give it the appreciation it deserves. The degree of delusion in this regard is outrageous.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
346
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 15:19:45 -
[38] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Please tell me, how do I move hundreds of thousands of cubicmeters of T2 component production materials to my Null sec or Low sec production facility to support my alliance? BR by gates? With BLOPSed Blockade Runners? DST? Freighter convoys, where people just drop an Ishtar squad on and murder nothing but the freighter(s)? I'm not even going to start on moving ships and fittings for the ships. I can also bring billions up on billions of assets via Blockade Runners into Null sec, but it is absolutely infeasible to do this if your staging is behind unfriendly areas like it has been the case with my alliance in Delve. Trying to move a BR from Sakht to my station would be guaranteed suicide. Petty low sec logistics, on the other hand, where your only worry in a BR is a smartbomber (spamming gates with cans, biomass and the likes is prohibited after all), is nothing in comparison to my transport volumes and that of other members of my alliance. Even for the supply of my previous corp's alliance, which wasn't nearly as big as THOR, the logistics required several JF of good every week just from me to keep things rolling.
People, who call this idea great, have no idea about the scope of hauling things nor do they value hauling and give it the appreciation it deserves. The degree of delusion in this regard is outrageous.
The 10K exclusion zone wouldn't apply to privately owned stations in Null where the owners can control the technology or regulations that enforce it. 10K would only be in Empire Space. Null is self-sufficent right?
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M1k3y Koontz
Bio Troll
Surely You're Joking
752
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 15:47:15 -
[39] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:Null is self-sufficent right?
Wrong. Racial moon goos prevent this, in the R8 and R32 spectrum. Cant find much tech outside the north which means no nanotransistors or fullerides, and the lack of Scandium/titanium/tingsten/cobalt outside of its racial regions means you cant make other race's T2 ~stuff~ without imports.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
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Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
346
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 16:05:36 -
[40] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:Null is self-sufficent right?
Wrong. Racial moon goos prevent this, in the R8 and R32 spectrum. Cant find much tech outside the north which means no nanotransistors or fullerides, and the lack of Scandium/titanium/tingsten/cobalt outside of its racial regions means you cant make other race's T2 ~stuff~ without imports.
So they would have to take risks like I do when I run relic sites in null and have to make it back to high-sec which is how I make 90% of my ISK? |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel
The Kadeshi
1411
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 16:25:53 -
[41] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:The 10K exclusion zone wouldn't apply to privately owned stations in Null where the owners can control the technology or regulations that enforce it. 10K would only be in Empire Space. Null is self-sufficent right?
Are you kidding me? What makes a Null sec outpost different from an Empire station, or NPC Null sec station for that matter? If at all, these outposts are a lot flimsier than the real deal of a station and shouldn't allow cynos within 20 km of their structure in order to prevent potential damage.  You have your sticks and carrots wrong here.
And self-sufficiency? Null is not self-sufficient, will not be for a long time; and this kind of change would only make it even less self-sufficient as you have to potentially cross several systems/areas, which are being camped by people praying on your JFs. Not to mention that many cooperations are already today incapable of keeping the "100% safe" Jump Freighters from dying to the puniest of threats.
What kind of risk are you talking about with exploration? I use a cloaky-nullified T3 to run these sites. There are also possible Interceptor fittings for exploration, although they require some more skills to be effective. If you put yourself deliberately at risk and do not do use these tools to your advantage but rather opt for an Astero, T1 exploration frigate or Covert Ops, it's your own failure and not the fault of the game.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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M1k3y Koontz
Bio Troll
Surely You're Joking
752
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 16:40:55 -
[42] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:Null is self-sufficent right?
Wrong. Racial moon goos prevent this, in the R8 and R32 spectrum. Cant find much tech outside the north which means no nanotransistors or fullerides, and the lack of Scandium/titanium/tingsten/cobalt outside of its racial regions means you cant make other race's T2 ~stuff~ without imports. So they would have to take risks like I do when I run relic sites in null and have to make it back to high-sec which is how I make 90% of my ISK?
I'm saying null isnt self sufficient.
And the risk manifests in the mining/hauling of the tower fuel for 2-4 large towers for the reactions, plus having to defend the towers supplying the minerals.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
237
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Posted - 2015.05.11 17:31:35 -
[43] - Quote
Zappity wrote:The mistake that OP makes is believing that people would still bring their jump freighters into lowsec, lining them up simply for his destructive pleasure. They would not. Lowsec trade would shrivel and die (properly die, not just the slightly dead state it is in now) and nullsec freight would be the province of larger groups only.
How is that YOUR problem, though, assuming it is true?
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Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1024
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Posted - 2015.05.11 17:56:25 -
[44] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:The 10K exclusion zone wouldn't apply to privately owned stations in Null where the owners can control the technology or regulations that enforce it. 10K would only be in Empire Space. Null is self-sufficent right? Are you kidding me? What makes a Null sec outpost different from an Empire station, or NPC Null sec station for that matter? If at all, these outposts are a lot flimsier than the real deal of a station and shouldn't allow cynos within 20 km of their structure in order to prevent potential damage. You have your sticks and carrots wrong here. And self-sufficiency? Null is not self-sufficient, will not be for a long time; and this kind of change would only make it even less self-sufficient as you have to potentially cross several systems/areas, which are being camped by people praying on your JFs. Not to mention that many cooperations are already today incapable of keeping the "100% safe" Jump Freighters from dying to the puniest of threats. What kind of risk are you talking about with exploration? I use a cloaky-nullified T3 to run these sites. There are also possible Interceptor fittings for exploration, although they require some more skills to be effective. If you put yourself deliberately at risk and do not do use these tools to your advantage but rather opt for an Astero, T1 exploration frigate or Covert Ops, it's your own failure and not the fault of the game.
If null isn't self sufficient, then no place in New Eden is. There are some shortcomings on low goo depending on region, but that's it.
There are already great safety mechanisms in place in nullsec at around any corner. Pipesystems, gated complexes, bubblebunkers left and right, local chat and homeground advantage. If you want *safe* logistics without a JF, do the PFR stunt and just get a bunch of haulers active everytime your homesystem is two wormhole jumps from highsec. A bit of organization and you can move around 100-200 haulers/transport ships through there. That's a minimum of about 5mil m-¦, using just one single connection, while risking assets in the process worth peanuts in comparison to a real JF. There are funny and efficient ways to get stuff done, you're just hung up on JF services over time - given they are failproof/riskfree, I can see why you want them to persist.
If a restriction like this would be implemented, I'd guess someone like goons would have figured out a neat trick involving a fast machariel to simply not care about the freighter being 10k off the station. |
d0cTeR9
Astro Technologies
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
160
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 18:23:21 -
[45] - Quote
Everyone wants to take a shot at goons/emperium... yet they all seem to have to ask CCP to make the game MUCH easier to do it 
Stop killing EVE. |
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
DARKNESS.
54
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 18:24:44 -
[46] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Zappity wrote:The mistake that OP makes is believing that people would still bring their jump freighters into lowsec, lining them up simply for his destructive pleasure. They would not. Lowsec trade would shrivel and die (properly die, not just the slightly dead state it is in now) and nullsec freight would be the province of larger groups only. How is that YOUR problem, though, assuming it is true?
You see, contrary to popular belief, EVERY null sec alliance and line member would actually like to see this game succeed and grow. Yes, that actually includes goons. If one area of the game suffers, we all suffer. If a player leaves the game, that's one less player for us all to shoot at or make friends with in time.
@Lloyd Roses
Low goo is not what is region dependent, it's the R64s, and to an extent a few R32s will be scarce.
As for the second part of your discussion. Reading the dimwitted ideas on F&I today has already put me in a foul mood so rather than saying something equally stupid like... "please uninstall you delusional p.o.s." I'll say this and hopefully you can grasp it.
-Not every area of logistics in this game can wait for a WH to magically appear and connect you to where you want to go, or even remotely close.
-Some areas of this game actually require the movement of very large quantities of goods, fuel, components, etc
-Trying to convince 100+ players to jump into an indy ship may be all well and good in theory, and while each one that dies isn't going to be worth 7b a pop that is still akin to carrying possibly a billion in assets per player in a ship that can die to a single interceptor.
-Where are these 100s of players coming from? Logistics teams typically are made up of a dozen or more (or less) players who handle everything for an alliance.
-In the case of alliance and corp level logistics, the fewer players involved the smoother it will run. Not to mention, people are dishonest and you may find yourself with missing assets and the like which is never good to open yourself up to on any level.
-Some areas of logistics need to be nearly risk-free. The risks were already taken in obtaining, running, and maintaining operations. There are far more risks in the majority of logistical operations in this game than the rewards for completing it, but it is a necessary evil for other players to have their content and fun. |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel
The Kadeshi
1411
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 18:44:55 -
[47] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:
There are already great safety mechanisms in place in nullsec at around any corner. Pipesystems, gated complexes, bubblebunkers left and right, local chat and homeground advantage. If you want *safe* logistics without a JF, do the PFR stunt and just get a bunch of haulers active everytime your homesystem is two wormhole jumps from highsec. A bit of organization and you can move around 100-200 haulers/transport ships through there. That's a minimum of about 5mil m-¦, using just one single connection, while risking assets in the process worth peanuts in comparison to a real JF. There are funny and efficient ways to get stuff done, you're just hung up on JF services over time - given they are failproof/riskfree, I can see why you want them to persist.
Coincidentally enough, I do bring BR into my systems every now and then if suitable wormholes are in the vicinity (1 jump away from the destination at most). However, other than that, I cannot be bothered with relying, let alone trusting other people to move my stuff. When I want big chunks of assets moved, I expect to be able to do this on my own and not with someone else's unreliable help. BR via wormholes are nice enough to bring in some billions in modules/ammo for the market, for everything else they are way to cumbersome. They may work for you and considering your alliance structure (in case you are in PFR), they are probably a better choice of doing things, but your way is by far not the only way and just because you deal with logistics in a certain way, does not mean other should be required to do the same.
Your point of JF being "failproof/riskfree" is completely moot and invalid. They are as safe as it gets if you know what you are doing, but one mistake and the local Freight Club char bumps you off a station or if you fail to abort your warp and don't manage to dock in time, the blab dreads or drive by titan gets you easily. Proof of JF being just as unsafe as any other ship can be found plentiful on all killboards. Just because I learned the game, just because I know how to keep my assets from dying to mindless morons, does not mean that the ships are failproof or riskfree. And why should I be punished for properly using game features and mechanics?
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
|
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1025
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 18:55:48 -
[48] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:I expect to be able to do this on my own and not with someone else's unreliable help.
Such team spirit. Imo nullsec should promote team spirit and trust a lot more.
I'm unaffiliated. I did spend time with null/sov-nul groups though, but that's been pre-phoebe, I doubt the experiences even compare. |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel
The Kadeshi
1411
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 19:48:24 -
[49] - Quote
Null sec is the space where trust is in unimaginable huge demand and 0 supply; it is an inherent aspect of the space. I am not going to trust someone with my assets, I don't expect others to entrust their assets into care and I least expect this aspect of Null sec to change. Team playing is already require more than enough in Null sec, be it ratting (anom coordination, running plexes with buddies), security (intels don't work without people contributing), industry (PI, mineral harvesting fleets, people to actually build something), logistics (I only supply my needs and individually my alliance. Bigger projects or the export of the moon/belt/ice/ratting yield, the maintenance of POS, JBs, stations, markets, etc. require a team to work on) and so on. Even more forced team play and Null sec turns into an area where I do not want to live in anymore.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
|
M1k3y Koontz
Bio Troll
Surely You're Joking
752
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 21:30:15 -
[50] - Quote
d0cTeR9 wrote:Everyone wants to take a shot at goons/emperium... yet they all seem to have to ask CCP to make the game MUCH easier to do it
Yes this whole thread is a stealth "kill CFC" thread
*Imperium, if you're going to use that ridiculous name, spell it right.
Lloyd Roses wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:The 10K exclusion zone wouldn't apply to privately owned stations in Null where the owners can control the technology or regulations that enforce it. 10K would only be in Empire Space. Null is self-sufficent right? Are you kidding me? What makes a Null sec outpost different from an Empire station, or NPC Null sec station for that matter? If at all, these outposts are a lot flimsier than the real deal of a station and shouldn't allow cynos within 20 km of their structure in order to prevent potential damage. You have your sticks and carrots wrong here. And self-sufficiency? Null is not self-sufficient, will not be for a long time; and this kind of change would only make it even less self-sufficient as you have to potentially cross several systems/areas, which are being camped by people praying on your JFs. Not to mention that many cooperations are already today incapable of keeping the "100% safe" Jump Freighters from dying to the puniest of threats. What kind of risk are you talking about with exploration? I use a cloaky-nullified T3 to run these sites. There are also possible Interceptor fittings for exploration, although they require some more skills to be effective. If you put yourself deliberately at risk and do not do use these tools to your advantage but rather opt for an Astero, T1 exploration frigate or Covert Ops, it's your own failure and not the fault of the game. If null isn't self sufficient, then no place in New Eden is. There are some shortcomings on low goo depending on region, but that's it.
That's rather non-sequitur, and there are serious shortfalls for moon goo. Great Wildlands, which I'll use as an example because I actually have a moon map for it (that didn't come from DOTLAN) lacks Neodymium, Dysprosium, Ceasium and Titanium. We can't make half the metamaterials, can't make Amarr T2 components, T2 ammo (or anything else that uses phenolic composites), or any of the high tier moon goo used in T2 Entosis links and T2 ships.
There's some major holes in nullsec self-sufficience.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
|
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
237
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 22:07:08 -
[51] - Quote
d0cTeR9 wrote:Everyone wants to take a shot at goons/emperium... yet they all seem to have to ask CCP to make the game MUCH easier to do it
Stop killing EVE.
Sounds like "Grrrrrrr . . . high sec!". The OP is about making the game harder, not easier.
Nasar Vyron wrote:You see, contrary to popular belief, EVERY null sec alliance and line member would actually like to see this game succeed and grow. Yes, that actually includes goons. If one area of the game suffers, we all suffer. If a player leaves the game, that's one less player for us all to shoot at or make friends with in time.
EVERY one, huh? Even Goons, huh? LOL. Quit trolling.
Do elaborate on how this change would cause players to leave the game presumably in large enough numbers for you or me to care. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
237
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 22:08:05 -
[52] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:The Eve economy pretty much depends on Freighters and Jump Freighters being 99.9% SAFE.
Arya Regnar wrote:I am a hellbent advocate on destruction and content creation, but even I see the need for SAFE JF jumps.
Nasar Vyron wrote:Some areas of logistics need to be nearly RISK-FREE.
Rivr Luzade wrote:When I want big chunks of assets moved, I EXPECT TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS ON MY OWN and not with someone else's unreliable help.
Apparently, CCP agrees with you. :-( |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
347
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 22:56:26 -
[53] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:The 10K exclusion zone wouldn't apply to privately owned stations in Null where the owners can control the technology or regulations that enforce it. 10K would only be in Empire Space. Null is self-sufficent right? Are you kidding me? What makes a Null sec outpost different from an Empire station, or NPC Null sec station for that matter? If at all, these outposts are a lot flimsier than the real deal of a station and shouldn't allow cynos within 20 km of their structure in order to prevent potential damage. You have your sticks and carrots wrong here. And self-sufficiency? Null is not self-sufficient, will not be for a long time; and this kind of change would only make it even less self-sufficient as you have to potentially cross several systems/areas, which are being camped by people praying on your JFs. Not to mention that many cooperations are already today incapable of keeping the "100% safe" Jump Freighters from dying to the puniest of threats. What kind of risk are you talking about with exploration? I use a cloaky-nullified T3 to run these sites. There are also possible Interceptor fittings for exploration, although they require some more skills to be effective. If you put yourself deliberately at risk and do not do use these tools to your advantage but rather opt for an Astero, T1 exploration frigate or Covert Ops, it's your own failure and not the fault of the game.
I use an Astero because I haven't finished training for a T3. You know it takes a while before a character can fly one. |
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
DARKNESS.
54
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 00:14:32 -
[54] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
EVERY one, huh? Even Goons, huh? LOL. Quit trolling.
Do elaborate on how this change would cause players to leave the game presumably in large enough numbers for you or me to care.
I would hope goons too. We all play the game, I would like to assume there is 1 truth, and that is we all love this game and want it to thrive.
And while the number of players who leave due to such a cyno change (and there would be a few), the mass leaves would come about from the price of goods; where only those alliances who are sitting on large amounts of isk can afford anything or already have stockpiles in place to build what we want.
That is, eve's upcoming players are the ones we would lose. The exact ones we should all want to stick around who are not immediately impacted by such a chance. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
2076
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 01:44:20 -
[55] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Zappity wrote:The mistake that OP makes is believing that people would still bring their jump freighters into lowsec, lining them up simply for his destructive pleasure. They would not. Lowsec trade would shrivel and die (properly die, not just the slightly dead state it is in now) and nullsec freight would be the province of larger groups only. How is that YOUR problem, though, assuming it is true?
I live and trade in lowsec.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
560
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 01:49:16 -
[56] - Quote
Fozzie pls
Gud idea.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
237
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 03:15:32 -
[57] - Quote
Nasar Vyron wrote:I would hope . . .
Let me stop you right there. See, hope is a very dangerous thing. It can often blind us to the reality we face. You may HOPE that everyone has some opinion, but that doesn't necessarily have ANYTHING to do with reality. That you HOPE the Goons or your fellow nullbears or even yourself want what's "best" for the game doesn't mean that you or your fellow nullbears or the Goons really give a **** about the game.
What I suspect is that, without realizing it, you have even fooled yourself into believing that a change in cynosural field mechanics with respect to stations will harm new players. Let me ask you this: When is the last time you saw a genuinely new player lighting a cyno or flying around low sec in a Tech II freighter? When was the last time you met a new player out in the ass end of low sec or null who needed something out there that needed to be hauled in a jump freighter?
Zappity wrote:I live and trade in lowsec.
OK, but how is it your PROBLEM? Would you be unable to operate live and trade in low sec without jump freighters? |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel
The Kadeshi
1411
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 05:58:58 -
[58] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:I use an Astero because I haven't finished training for a T3. You know it takes a while before a character can fly one.
No way! Do you know how long it takes to be able to fly a JF properly? On an completely unoptimized char: It takes me around 62 days to fly a Proteus/Legion, let's put it at 100 days for some support skills like analyzers, prop mods, tank, cap, and so on. It takes me 230 days to train into an Ark just with the necessary prerequs, Amarr Freighter V (because you need the extra last bit or cargo volume), Jump Drive Calibration V (because you need the range), Jump Freighter IV (V would be best, but IV works because of the fuel reduction) and Jump Fuel Conservation. I have not yet trained any support skills and I also have excluded the necessary 1 Cyno alt account and the necessary Webber account/toon on the cyno, which both add at least another 30 days to the queue. I am by absolutely no means complaining about the length of the skill training for this immensely powerful, useful and necessary ship, but you should have some perspective about what you say. After training for a BR (45 days on that char, including cloaking but no support skills), I have to wait another 100 (to sit in it) to 180 days (to more properly sit in it) days before I can fly the next upgrade. Whereas, you in your Astero (with frigates trained to V) need to wait 20 days to be able to upgrade from the Astero to a more or less working T3.
If you cannot fly proper tools for an activity and shy away from risk, you should not go where you cannot control the risk well. That's the same for hauling and exploration: If you cannot use a JF to bring in big volumes, you do not start it with a freighter and hope for the best. You stick to BR and wormholes to move small goods with easily manageable risk.
Likewise, if you cannot fly a T3 for exploration and don't like the like the risk of unavoidable bubble camps, you do not go to Null sec. Or at least do not enter Null sec through the low/high sec entry choke-you-to-death points and instead use wormholes, stay local and do not explore in busy areas.
That said, the jump range nerf for Jump Freighters will eventually come, once you can life fairly self-sufficient in your own region/constellations or can do proper trade with neighbor constellations. CCP has announced it and it makes sense to use your JF only to quickly and relatively safely around your own region or couple of constellations to ferry goods around. I do not see why there's even more need for a JF nerf with this in mind.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2903
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 06:34:22 -
[59] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Let me stop you right there. See, hope is a very dangerous thing. It can often blind us to the reality we face. You may HOPE that everyone has some opinion, but that doesn't necessarily have ANYTHING to do with reality. That you HOPE the Goons or your fellow nullbears or even yourself want what's "best" for the game doesn't mean that you or your fellow nullbears or the Goons really give a **** about the game.
Nasar Vyron is my space enemy. Last deployment I spent my time shooting stuff belonging to his alliance and that of his allies. But at the same time I agree with what he has written here. Goons spend alot of time making their space empire work and run. They have a serious interest in the game. I want the game to succeed, so do Goons and their allies and so do our in game enemies.
But hey, if you want to keep going on with that blind spot, go for it.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Zappity
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
2077
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 08:24:52 -
[60] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Nasar Vyron wrote:I would hope . . . Let me stop you right there. See, hope is a very dangerous thing. It can often blind us to the reality we face. You may HOPE that everyone has some opinion, but that doesn't necessarily have ANYTHING to do with reality. That you HOPE the Goons or your fellow nullbears or even yourself want what's "best" for the game doesn't mean that you or your fellow nullbears or the Goons really give a **** about the game. What I suspect is that, without realizing it, you have even fooled yourself into believing that a change in cynosural field mechanics with respect to stations will harm new players. Let me ask you this: When is the last time you saw a genuinely new player lighting a cyno or flying around low sec in a Tech II freighter? When was the last time you met a new player out in the ass end of low sec or null who needed something out there that needed to be hauled in a jump freighter? Zappity wrote:I live and trade in lowsec. OK, but how is it your PROBLEM? Would you be unable to operate live and trade in low sec without jump freighters?
Well at the moment it isn't a problem. It would seriously limit which systems I could stock if I didn't use JF.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1175
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 08:44:33 -
[61] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:Null is self-sufficent right?
Wrong. Racial moon goos prevent this, in the R8 and R32 spectrum. Cant find much tech outside the north which means no nanotransistors or fullerides, and the lack of Scandium/titanium/tingsten/cobalt outside of its racial regions means you cant make other race's T2 ~stuff~ without imports. So they would have to take risks like I do when I run relic sites in null and have to make it back to high-sec which is how I make 90% of my ISK?
Did you really just equate moving a covops frigate to a jump freighter?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
No. |
Benzmann
invalid
Pirate Coalition
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 08:51:43 -
[62] - Quote
i support this.
but only if warp to 0 will be removed, and have it warp to 15km like in the old days. |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
347
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 08:54:28 -
[63] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:
If you cannot fly proper tools for an activity and shy away from risk, you should not go where you cannot control the risk well. That's the same for hauling and exploration: If you cannot use a JF to bring in big volumes, you do not start it with a freighter and hope for the best. You stick to BR and wormholes to move small goods with easily manageable risk.
Likewise, if you cannot fly a T3 for exploration and don't like the like the risk of unavoidable bubble camps, you do not go to Null sec. Or at least do not enter Null sec through the low/high sec entry choke-you-to-death points and instead use wormholes, stay local and do not explore in busy areas.
I use wormholes and covert ops frigates / Asteros to run relic sites in hositle null. The thrill is the knowledge that a Tengu or worse could decloak right on top of me at any moment. I want JF pilots to have a tenth of that excitement so they don't get bored and leave the game! I think the fun in this game is derived from hanging it out and getting away with it. Not being safe.
|
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
347
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 08:56:46 -
[64] - Quote
Benzmann wrote:i support this.
but only if warp to 0 will be removed, and have it warp to 15km like in the old days.
JF's would really be screwed then because they could only warp within 15km of a station instead of warping to an instadock after jumping to their 99.9% safe ping. Why make it much more dangerous than my suggestion that would only increase the danger a tiny amount? |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
347
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 08:58:30 -
[65] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:Null is self-sufficent right?
Wrong. Racial moon goos prevent this, in the R8 and R32 spectrum. Cant find much tech outside the north which means no nanotransistors or fullerides, and the lack of Scandium/titanium/tingsten/cobalt outside of its racial regions means you cant make other race's T2 ~stuff~ without imports. So they would have to take risks like I do when I run relic sites in null and have to make it back to high-sec which is how I make 90% of my ISK? Did you really just equate moving a covops frigate to a jump freighter? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha No.
No I am describing how my ISK making actvity involves risk unlike cyno'ing a jump freighter into the docking range of a station in low-sec. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
2078
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 09:03:10 -
[66] - Quote
Why would you want to make living and trading in lowsec more difficult? Is it not risky enough for you already? For goodness sake, JFs cost 7 billion (with a b) isk. That is more than entire hangars of most lowsec pilots in a single ship.
They are plenty enough exciting already, even flying through highsec. Maybe you should try it some time.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1175
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 09:10:40 -
[67] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:afkalt wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:Null is self-sufficent right?
Wrong. Racial moon goos prevent this, in the R8 and R32 spectrum. Cant find much tech outside the north which means no nanotransistors or fullerides, and the lack of Scandium/titanium/tingsten/cobalt outside of its racial regions means you cant make other race's T2 ~stuff~ without imports. So they would have to take risks like I do when I run relic sites in null and have to make it back to high-sec which is how I make 90% of my ISK? Did you really just equate moving a covops frigate to a jump freighter? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha No. No I am describing how my ISK making actvity involves risk unlike cyno'ing a jump freighter into the docking range of a station in low-sec.
Unless you fail at covops, the risk is the same.
|
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
347
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 09:13:33 -
[68] - Quote
afkalt wrote:
Unless you fail at covops, the risk is the same.
Trying to get through a properly set up bubble camp in a covops frigate is much higher. No interdictors, interceptors, and insta-locking sensor boosted ships in a deep safe in low sec. |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
347
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 09:15:19 -
[69] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Why would you want to make living and trading in lowsec more difficult? Is it not risky enough for you already? For goodness sake, JFs cost 7 billion (with a b) isk. That is more than entire hangars of most lowsec pilots in a single ship.
They are plenty enough exciting already, even flying through highsec. Maybe you should try it some time.
I believe it is but I fail to see how having to jump into a safe before warping to an instadock adds a ton more risk.
|
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel
The Kadeshi
1411
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 09:27:42 -
[70] - Quote
Let's see... LowSechNaya sees your cyno char arrive in system and warp to a save. LSH really is good at the game and knows that something is going to cyno. They probe the cyno ship in a matter of seconds and then sit there with a bomber. You cyno your ship in, the bomber decloaks and points the JF while the rest of their buddies come in. Your webber, of course, has been neutralized multiple times as s/he attempted to come to the system. So, even if you do not cyno in because of your webber losses, you already lost several dozens of millions there. And if you decide to be ballsy, you lose billions in addition. Their titan/super kill history speaks for itself to demonstrate what kind of risk you add to this.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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Samillian
Angry Mustellid
The Periphery
777
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 10:13:05 -
[71] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:Zappity wrote:Why would you want to make living and trading in lowsec more difficult? Is it not risky enough for you already? For goodness sake, JFs cost 7 billion (with a b) isk. That is more than entire hangars of most lowsec pilots in a single ship.
They are plenty enough exciting already, even flying through highsec. Maybe you should try it some time. I believe it is but I fail to see how having to jump into a safe before warping to an instadock adds a ton more risk.
I think the problem here is you seem to have never had to do large scale logistics.
In order for you to make a fair and balanced assessment of your recommendations virtues I suggest you get your self a JF and give it a go for a few weeks, jumping at least a couple of times a week to and from HiSec and the same target system in Null. Make sure you stay 10km off the docking ring or at a safe when you cyno in and let us know how your proposal works out for you.
After all its only seems fair and reasonable that you make recommendations on a subject you actually have some experience of after all.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
|
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
347
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 10:35:42 -
[72] - Quote
Samillian wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:Zappity wrote:Why would you want to make living and trading in lowsec more difficult? Is it not risky enough for you already? For goodness sake, JFs cost 7 billion (with a b) isk. That is more than entire hangars of most lowsec pilots in a single ship.
They are plenty enough exciting already, even flying through highsec. Maybe you should try it some time. I believe it is but I fail to see how having to jump into a safe before warping to an instadock adds a ton more risk. I think the problem here is you seem to have never had to do large scale logistics. In order for you to make a fair and balanced assessment of your recommendations virtues I suggest you get your self a JF and give it a go for a few weeks, jumping at least a couple of times a week to and from HiSec and the same target system in Null. Make sure you stay 10km off the docking ring or at a safe when you cyno in and let us know how your proposal works out for you. After all its only seems fair and reasonable that you make recommendations on a subject you actually have some experience of after all. Edit: TQ not SiSi or its not a fair test.
I can't fly a JF and have no urge to. Would you mind testing it for me? |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
The Periphery
777
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 10:52:43 -
[73] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:Samillian wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:Zappity wrote:Why would you want to make living and trading in lowsec more difficult? Is it not risky enough for you already? For goodness sake, JFs cost 7 billion (with a b) isk. That is more than entire hangars of most lowsec pilots in a single ship.
They are plenty enough exciting already, even flying through highsec. Maybe you should try it some time. I believe it is but I fail to see how having to jump into a safe before warping to an instadock adds a ton more risk. I think the problem here is you seem to have never had to do large scale logistics. In order for you to make a fair and balanced assessment of your recommendations virtues I suggest you get your self a JF and give it a go for a few weeks, jumping at least a couple of times a week to and from HiSec and the same target system in Null. Make sure you stay 10km off the docking ring or at a safe when you cyno in and let us know how your proposal works out for you. After all its only seems fair and reasonable that you make recommendations on a subject you actually have some experience of after all. Edit: TQ not SiSi or its not a fair test. I can't fly a JF and have no urge to. Would you mind testing it for me?
No need, I know very well what will happen.
You on the other hand seem to be happy to make recommendations on a subject with very little or no first hand experience and therefore need to do the basic research before throwing out "good ideas" with nothing to really back them up.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
|
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
237
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 11:08:48 -
[74] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Well at the moment it isn't a problem. It would seriously LIMIT which systems I could stock if I didn't use JF.
Limitations suck, but there are consequences for imposing them on and/or removing them from a game. Always.
What I wonder, and what the original poster wonders, is just: What are the consequences? Seems like a fair question.
Rivr Luzade wrote:Let's see... LowSechNaya sees your cyno char arrive in system and warp to a save. LSH really is good at the game and knows that something is going to cyno. They probe the cyno ship in a matter of seconds and then sit there with a bomber. You cyno your ship in, the bomber decloaks and points the JF while the rest of their buddies come in. Your webber, of course, has been neutralized multiple times as s/he attempted to come to the system. So, even if you do not cyno in because of your webber losses, you already lost several dozens of millions there. And if you decide to be ballsy, you lose billions in addition. Their titan/super kill history speaks for itself to demonstrate what kind of risk you add to this.
Lowsechnaya Sholupen and many other such groups are good at picking off the weak and inflexible. I sometimes wonder if maybe that is for the best.
Security is not a simple thing to maintain. It is harder if the majority of people who might be good at providing it are instead trying to destroy it. It is harder when the few remaining people who are capable of providing security have virtually no incentive to do so. It is harder when the people who need security are hellbent on going it alone, even going to the extreme of denigrating and obsoleting the role of protector.
Needing other players gives rise to all sorts of icky and vulnerable feelings like trust and gratitude and admiration . . . but maybe giving players in capital ships a perfect defense was a bad idea from a gameplay standpoint. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
237
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 11:18:34 -
[75] - Quote
Samillian wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:Zappity wrote:Why would you want to make living and trading in lowsec more difficult? Is it not risky enough for you already? For goodness sake, JFs cost 7 billion (with a b) isk. That is more than entire hangars of most lowsec pilots in a single ship.
They are plenty enough exciting already, even flying through highsec. Maybe you should try it some time. I believe it is but I fail to see how having to jump into a safe before warping to an instadock adds a ton more risk. I think the problem here is you seem to have never had to do large scale logistics. In order for you to make a fair and balanced assessment of your recommendations virtues I suggest you get your self a JF and give it a go for a few weeks, jumping at least a couple of times a week to and from HiSec and the same target system in Null. Make sure you stay 10km off the docking ring or at a safe when you cyno in and let us know how your proposal works out for you. After all its only seems fair and reasonable that you make recommendations on a subject you actually have some experience of after all. Edit: TQ not SiSi or its not a fair test.
It sounds like if cynos were changed the way the OP suggested, your spaceship might be vulnerable to space violence when it is flying in space.
Holy ****balls, Batman! That would be un-ac-ceptable. Jump freighters should NEVER die in unsecure space. Only in high sec.
Somebody kill this noob a jump freighter to learn him. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
2078
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 11:30:53 -
[76] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:It sounds like if cynos were changed the way the OP suggested, your spaceship might be vulnerable to space violence when it is flying in space.
Holy ****balls, Batman! That would be un-ac-ceptable. Jump freighters should NEVER die in unsecure space. Only in high sec.
Somebody kill this noob a jump freighter to learn him.
It sounds to me like you should get a jump freighter before you continue your ill-informed nonsense. Plenty of jump freighters die outside of highsec. Search for Freight Club.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Hicksimus
Xion Limited
Resonance.
612
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 12:26:18 -
[77] - Quote
Every time somebody asks for CCP to make something easier the vets yell "EvE is hard, HTFU!"....every time CCP goes near the easy buttons exclusively available to the vets the vets cry and shitpost the suggestion out of existence.
Recruitment Officer: What type of a pilot are you?
Me: I've been described as a Ray Charles with Parkinsons and a drinking problem.
|
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
238
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 12:34:13 -
[78] - Quote
Should I believe:
Zappity wrote: Plenty of jump freighters die outside of highsec.
Or should I believe:
Xequecal wrote:The Eve economy pretty much depends on Freighters and Jump Freighters being 99.9% SAFE.
Arya Regnar wrote:I am a hellbent advocate on destruction and content creation, but even I see the need for SAFE JF jumps.
Nasar Vyron wrote:Some areas of logistics need to be nearly RISK-FREE.
Rivr Luzade wrote:When I want big chunks of assets moved, I EXPECT TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS ON MY OWN and not with someone else's unreliable help.
Are jump freighters 99.9% risk free ships that you can operate without help or does the fact that a paltry number of them dying in low sec to a group who is specialized at killing them evidence that they are 0.01% dangerous? Hmmm . . . |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel
The Kadeshi
1412
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 14:43:22 -
[79] - Quote
On my own means that I need to use 3 accounts at least. . On my own means that I do not trust anyone to web my freighters and that I have to do it with my own chars in order to keep them 99.9% safe. On my own means that I do not trust anyone to light a cyno for my JF/Carrier/Dread/other things without checking myself where the cyno is and in most cases I have to the cynos myself, which means a lot of chars, in order to keep my belongings 99.9% safe. This is "on my own". No JF works in its intended ways without help as for the above reasons. Where this help comes from, whether it's unreliable, untrustworthy strangers or my own assets of a trusted community, does not matter at all.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
|
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
105
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 15:28:09 -
[80] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:
No I am describing how my ISK making actvity involves risk unlike cyno'ing a jump freighter into the docking range of a station in low-sec.
If JF jumps to low-/nullsec stations really would be so safe, why are there so many kills on zkillboard with Jump Freighters?
To me it simply looks like you never have flown a capital ship before because otherwise you wouldn't compare the "risk" of flying a cloaky ship which costs less than 200 mio isk (incl. fit), a ship which can defend itself and even attack/kill other ships with the risk of flying a sitting duck aka "jump freighter" worth 7 billion, without the possibility to defend itself and slow as hell when it comes to warping, aligning or generally moving in space.
Please also forget the point about webbing. Lighting a cyno in a system attracts much more people than enetering a system through a gate. A cyno is a clear indicator of fun and a nice fat killmail for every pvp player and typically you have visitors at your place within 15 seconds. Also don't forget that you would have to find new cyno spots for every jump and can't reuse existing ones. Nothing is easier to wait with a cloaked camper 5k off your standard spot and then launch a warp disruptor probe.
Making it impossible to dock immediately in LS/NS would kill the economy in these areas, especially the ones which don't have a direct and fast connection to Highsec. Only big allies could afford the required defense backbone to bring in goods with JF while any small group would fail and have to move back to High sec. Black Frog would have to cancel their flights or raise the costs and any free trader currently seeding ls/ns nullsec stations could go back to HS.
If you mention BR as replacements then you never had a look at the cargo size of goods. Feel free to tell me how you want to store bigger ships in a BR or how many runs you plan to do. A BR typically has around 8k cargo space, a JF around 300k. If you want to do 38 instead of a single run to bring in goods - well well.
If you come up with Wormhole routes as replacement then feel free to do it for a while. I have done it and can ensure you that after some weeks you just don't want to spend 2-3 hours scanning down a route from Null to Highsec just to bring in a cargo load which fits into an Orca.
So in short: NO. |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
105
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 15:36:34 -
[81] - Quote
[edit] wrong button hit. grrrr |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
349
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 15:47:23 -
[82] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:On my own means that I need to use 3 accounts at least. . On my own means that I do not trust anyone to web my freighters and that I have to do it with my own chars in order to keep them 99.9% safe. On my own means that I do not trust anyone to light a cyno for my JF/Carrier/Dread/other things without checking myself where the cyno is and in most cases I have to the cynos myself, which means a lot of chars, in order to keep my belongings 99.9% safe. This is "on my own". No JF works in its intended ways without help as for the above reasons. Where this help comes from, whether it's unreliable, untrustworthy strangers or my own assets of a trusted community, does not matter at all. "On my own" does not mean that I want total safety. This proposal, however, is beyond all tenable precariousness. Harrison Tato wrote:I use wormholes and covert ops frigates / Asteros to run relic sites in hositle null. The thrill is the knowledge that a Tengu or worse could decloak right on top of me at any moment. I want JF pilots to have a tenth of that excitement so they don't get bored and leave the game! I think the fun in this game is derived from hanging it out and getting away with it. Not being safe. Are you nuts? Have you even tried to move a JF through Niarja or Uedama for once when there are some bumpers around. Can you even imagine what kind of adrenaline rushes through your veins when you see that the bumper picks up speed and locks you? Or when your webber is out of range you just barely make it to web your JF in warp before the first bump lands? Or when all of a sudden Dreads appear behind your JF on the undock and bump you, both of you knowing full well that the undock range is just a couple of kilometers. Or when a titan warps in and you just sit there, hammering the Warp Abort button while the ominous glow of the DD builds up and you just pray that there's no lag. Or when you see a couple of red flashy pirates sitting on the station you want to cyno in and you know what they are up to (bumping your ship off the station as soon as it cynos in or when it tries to warp to the high sec gate) and you do not do anything and just let them rot on the undock. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about as you clearly have never experienced this kind of thrill. I have and I can tell you, it is better than anything else in this game. I don't care if I lose a 300M Ishtar/Eagle or a 600M Legion/Machariel in a fleet fight; however, I do absolutely feel a horrendous blood rush when I move freighters with double or high single digit billions through space, or JF through systems with known titan/super pilots where you need to warp to gates and kind of expect these big toys to uncloak and start pounding you.
The only risk in this game is ISK and pride. You losing your JF hits me as hard as me losing an Astero. It is all relative to the assets you have in the game. My entire experience with JF's is seeming them pop into existance at the undock of LS stations in almost empty systems. It lookes pretty safe from where I am at.
Can't you just avoid Niarja and Uedama in a Jump Freigter? Isn't that what they are for? |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel
The Kadeshi
1412
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 16:18:21 -
[83] - Quote
Because we make it so that it is safe. Being good at the game is now a punishable crime?
Uh, and who pays for that jump to 2 cynos? Who pays me for the fuel? For the effort that it is to move the cynos in place, as well as the webber? Who pays my extra expenses when I move a CC through there? Who pays for the extra fuel when I want to seed the markets in my home? People like you? For people like you even adding 10% to the Jita price is too much to money. People like you love to complain about prices in Null sec being too expensive and that we logistics people shouldn't add fuel, transport cost on top of our profit. People like you would rather see us move CCs for 10k/Jump through the entire clusters and thank you that you gave me the opportunity to work for you. As stated before, you have absolutely no idea whatsoever what you are talking about.
This nerf to any cyno related movement is not needed. /End of Discussion.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
|
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
105
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 16:18:33 -
[84] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:[
The only risk in this game is ISK and pride. You losing your JF hits me as hard as me losing an Astero. It is all relative to the assets you have in the game. My entire experience with JF's is seeming them pop into existance at the undock of LS stations in almost empty systems. It lookes pretty safe from where I am at.
Can't you just avoid Niarja and Uedama in a Jump Freigter? Isn't that what they are for?
Your response proves that you have no clue about capital ships which explains your feature request.
Niarja/Uedama are off topic because Highsec. Check Hothomouh or Vehan instead. Both low secs with several JF kills despite the fact that they can immediately dock.
Please explain me why killing my JF (worth 7 billion) hits me "as hard" as killing an Astero worth 200 mio(?). There is a clear discrepancy in the isk involved here - 6.8 billion more. It only would be identically hard if I would be able to replace it as easy as I can replace an Astero - which takes me one evening exploration in nullsec.
People only do things If the reward is worth the risk (here: 7 billion loss). So JF would have to become much cheaper or the prices for the goods must go up in any area outside Highsec. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2906
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 17:13:42 -
[85] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:It sounds like if cynos were changed the way the OP suggested, your spaceship might be vulnerable to space violence when it is flying in space.
Holy ****balls, Batman! That would be un-ac-ceptable. Jump freighters should NEVER die in unsecure space. Only in high sec.
Somebody kill this noob a jump freighter to learn him. It sounds to me like you should get a jump freighter before you continue your ill-informed nonsense. Plenty of jump freighters die outside of highsec. Search for Freight Club.
Or just peruse zkillboard under jump freighters. On the front page for Rhea's at zkillboard, there are 21 Rhea kills in low or null sec out of a total of 50 kills. Seems reasonable to me.
Oh and Mayhew Morgan is wrong....again.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2908
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 17:19:41 -
[86] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Should I believe:
Are jump freighters 99.9% risk free ships that you can operate without help or does the fact that a paltry number of them dying in low sec to a group who is specialized at killing them evidence that they are 0.01% dangerous? Hmmm . . .
First off that was somebody's subjective probability assessment, not some number carved in stone somewhere. It is nobody else's fault if you are foolish when it comes to probabilities and are unable to evaluate other people's statements.
And here we are again...Mayhew Morgan...wrong yet again.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
238
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 18:23:23 -
[87] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Or just peruse zkillboard under jump freighters. On the front page for Rhea's at zkillboard, there are 21 Rhea kills in low or null sec out of a total of 50 kills.
Or, in other words, most of the jump freighter kills take place where jump freighters cannot jump to 0km of a station. Yeah, that seems like a reasonable result of the game mechanics to me as well.
Teckos Pech wrote:First off that was somebody's subjective probability assessment, not some number carved in stone somewhere. It is nobody else's fault if you are foolish when it comes to probabilities and are unable to evaluate other people's statements.
"Are jump freighters 99.9% risk free ships that you can operate without help or does the fact that a paltry number of them dying in low sec to a group who is specialized at killing them evidence that they are 0.01% dangerous?"
^ this not mean what it say. It mean jump freighter safe if pilot play good EVE. Jump freighter die if pilot play bad EVE. That not fun if you not jump freighter pilot. If you want kill jump freighter, you can only do if pilot stupid or make accident.
I sorry to use big words for you not understand.
I hope that clears it up for you. BTW, one of those quoted was a Goon. Does your Goon overlord know you are disagreeing with him? I wouldn't want you to get beat or lose your space rations or suffer other puishment for disagreeing with him. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
575
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 19:00:56 -
[88] - Quote
I agree with Mayhaw Morgan.
It is the same issue of supers being moved solo. Move it like that and prepare to get rekt.
Be Adviced The Garade Door is Now Closing. Closing. Closing. Shut.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
105
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 19:17:55 -
[89] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
It mean jump freighter safe if pilot play good EVE. Jump freighter die if pilot play bad EVE. That not fun if you not jump freighter pilot. If you want kill jump freighter, you can only do if pilot stupid or make accident.
I sorry to use big words for you not understand.
This rule applies to every ship type. If you know how to use it, then there is no or only a risk to loose it. You also almost can-¦t loose a properly fit BR in lowsec or a travel raptor. So why punish the ones who know how to use their ships?
I want to add something to the last response: concerning " only about isk and pride and a JF loss hits as hard as the loss of an Astero":
Let-¦s assume you earn the same amount isk/hour when flying an Astero and doing some jobs than when using a JF to haul goods. I already mentioned that it takes (me) only one evening running explorations to replace a lost Astero (I earn around 200 mio isk/evening doing this). To get an idea how hard a JF loss hits you only have to compare how much more a JF costs - around 23 times. To replace a JF I have to run explorations for 23 days.
Use this info and transfer it to the Astero. Imagine you would have to play for 23 evenings to replace your Asterowhen you loose it and then think about the idea of jumping around with this ship in unsecured nullsec. Now you know how it feels when when you move around a capital. Add the issues of such a ship (no defense, no warp core stabs, no cloak, no agility, sloooow speed and a huge size which makes targeting, scanning down and hitting it very easy), top it with the need of using a cyno which is visible for anyone in the system and can be warped at immediately and there you are.
And you really want to make this even harder? I can predict that in such a case almost everyone will stop using it. At least I wouldn-¦t risk 7 or even more billions (because JF are used to haul goods which also cost money) if I would loose one of them every 2-3 travel to nullsec, at least not when the income is as low as it is at the moment. I would continue it only if the income would be much higher which would result in much higher prices for the transported goods. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
983
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 21:59:51 -
[90] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:The Eve economy pretty much depends on Freighters and Jump Freighters being 99.9% safe. Do you want everything in the game to cost 10x as much? If you make these ships killable, that's exactly what will happen.
I think you mean the goon (fill in any large null alliance here) memberships base and bottom line depend on JF safety. Get your head out of you patoot and you'll notice that most of eve does not revolve around null space.
Quit blathering.
Feel free to put some maths behind 10x more expensive. I need the laugh.
JF fear is pretty tasty. I think I like it. |
Alexis Nightwish
185
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 22:10:53 -
[91] - Quote
The problem isn't just with where cynos can be lit, but the fact that they are instantaneous, and can be jumped to immediately.
JFs' (and travel fit dreads' and carriers') near invulnerability is due to these facts, and is only one symptom of a sickness that's plagued EVE since RMR: There's no counterplay to cynos.
There's a reason my sig shows the icon for cynos (and links) as EVE's "I win button".
CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
EVE Online's "I win!" Button
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Khorvek
Dead Pool Syndicate
9
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 22:29:55 -
[92] - Quote
I agree with the OP. It doesn't make sense. I mean, we have used to have warp to 15km for regular ships going to places, because of "safety" concerns. A giant vortex into another part of space should be a concern for the station.
On the game mechanics side, I see the point in not allowing people to go right to a station. Eventually everyone will just use jump capable ships to move goods, which is crippling to the economy, and the PVP side of the game.
Rivr Luzade wrote:So, now I need 3 accounts to earn some money? Guess, I need to buy some PC upgrades after all. Besides of that: 10 km from a Minmatar Tradepost puts the cyno a lot closer to the station (15 km more or less) than 10 km from an Amarr Military Station or Caldari Administrative station (between 30-40 km from the station). What kind of random safety is that? Also, do you intend to push independent haulers out of business? I know for a matter of fact that I will not allow anyone except for my alts to touch my JF just because either some people simply feel the need for easy content to make their members happy or because some people know how to play the game properly. By the looks of it, you want to turn already tedious, laborious, time-consuming, ISK intensive, little appreciated, highly undervalued and underestimated work into the mess that moving super caps is. Fantastic.
Maybe MMO's arent for you?
I don't understand the issue people seem to believe in inflation due to mission runners and ratting...
Without missions and rats, isk wouldn't exist in Eve. All trading, selling T2 stuff, and buying ore, all of it depends on isk generated elsewhere.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2911
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 23:30:53 -
[93] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Xequecal wrote:The Eve economy pretty much depends on Freighters and Jump Freighters being 99.9% safe. Do you want everything in the game to cost 10x as much? If you make these ships killable, that's exactly what will happen. I think you mean the goon (fill in any large null alliance here) memberships base and bottom line depend on JF safety. Get your head out of you patoot and you'll notice that most of eve does not revolve around null space. Quit blathering. Feel free to put some maths behind 10x more expensive. I need the laugh. JF fear is pretty tasty. I think I like it.
Actually HS does depend on NS. NS is the source of most high end minerals, found and mined predominantly in NS. Similarly for moon goo (yes, there is some in LS, but not enough to offset the loss of NS moon goo should that happen). Similarly there is quite a bit of destruction in NS. That destruction keeps the markets for minerals humming along, even the HS low end market.
In most economies everything is connected to everything. Do something to impact one area of the economy it will have an impact throughout the entire economy to varying degrees.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2911
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 23:51:29 -
[94] - Quote
Khorvek wrote:
On the game mechanics side, I see the point in not allowing people to go right to a station. Eventually everyone will just use jump capable ships to move goods, which is crippling to the economy, and the PVP side of the game.
This has to be one of the stupidest things I've seen written down this week.....
Improving logistics has never been bad for any economy anywhere. Anybody stating it is bad for the economy should go sit in the corner and feel ashamed.
And no, there are still times you might want to use ships other than a JF. I often use a transport for a few reaons:
1. Its great when hauling high value "small" cargo.
2. It is nearly impervious to high sec ganking if you are manually flying through HS.
3. If you are moving via some sort of jump bridge, low fatigue.
And no, JFs are not going to make PvP less common.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Khorvek
Dead Pool Syndicate
9
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 00:41:30 -
[95] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Khorvek wrote:
On the game mechanics side, I see the point in not allowing people to go right to a station. Eventually everyone will just use jump capable ships to move goods, which is crippling to the economy, and the PVP side of the game.
This has to be one of the stupidest things I've seen written down this week..... Improving logistics has never been bad for any economy anywhere. Anybody stating it is bad for the economy should go sit in the corner and feel ashamed. And no, there are still times you might want to use ships other than a JF. I often use a transport for a few reaons: 1. Its great when hauling high value "small" cargo. 2. It is nearly impervious to high sec ganking if you are manually flying through HS. 3. If you are moving via some sort of jump bridge, low fatigue. And no, JFs are not going to make PvP less common.
Maybe you should learn something about economies, then. The safer goods hauling is, the more stuff saturates the market. The more stuff saturates the market, the lower the price of a good, and therefore the move volume you must sell to make the same profit. I assume you're the same type of person who still mines veldspar even when trit is crashing.
I don't understand the issue people seem to believe in inflation due to mission runners and ratting...
Without missions and rats, isk wouldn't exist in Eve. All trading, selling T2 stuff, and buying ore, all of it depends on isk generated elsewhere.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2913
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 05:58:51 -
[96] - Quote
Khorvek wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Khorvek wrote:
On the game mechanics side, I see the point in not allowing people to go right to a station. Eventually everyone will just use jump capable ships to move goods, which is crippling to the economy, and the PVP side of the game.
This has to be one of the stupidest things I've seen written down this week..... Improving logistics has never been bad for any economy anywhere. Anybody stating it is bad for the economy should go sit in the corner and feel ashamed. And no, there are still times you might want to use ships other than a JF. I often use a transport for a few reaons: 1. Its great when hauling high value "small" cargo. 2. It is nearly impervious to high sec ganking if you are manually flying through HS. 3. If you are moving via some sort of jump bridge, low fatigue. And no, JFs are not going to make PvP less common. Maybe you should learn something about economies, then. The safer goods hauling is, the more stuff saturates the market. The more stuff saturates the market, the lower the price of a good, and therefore the move volume you must sell to make the same profit. I assume you're the same type of person who still mines veldspar even when trit is crashing.
An expanding economy (more goods and services) does not have to mean lower prices and is not a bad thing. People both in game and IRL do not want less goods and services, they want more. From this the idea the more goods is somehow bad is simply laughable. And an expanding economy does not have to result in reduced prices.
Markets tend to be self-correcting as well.[1] If too much is produced then the price reduction is to clear the market and signal people producing in that market to leave that market. Just as if prices increase it signals people to enter that market to produce more. So prices cannot just decrease without end...or if they are it is indicative of a more serious problem like a contraction of the money supply which can lead to deflation.
And in any event JFs do not produce in game goods. A JF moves goods around the economy getting it from sellers to final buyers. There are a number of JF pilots who are probably best described as engaged in arbitrage. They buy in Jita at a given price and then move their goods to NS where they can charge a higher price. This is not producing goods, but is instead essentially a service.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Juan Mileghere
Incident Command
Southern Star Dominion
26
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 07:24:37 -
[97] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:Lakotnik wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:Xequecal wrote:The Eve economy pretty much depends on Freighters and Jump Freighters being 99.9% safe. Do you want everything in the game to cost 10x as much? If you make these ships killable, that's exactly what will happen. I would send in a scout before I jumped a freighter in or an escort to meet it. With pings for jump in I think they would still be very safe just not totally safe. You do realize most Low-sec systems are camped by BLOPS/Cap teams already right? If timed right, they can even bump you off of station in those 5 seconds you can't dock after a jump. So I'd say it's another bad idea from people who can't find content. So they want the game nerfed so they can get more juicy kills. The nerve.. No idea. I fly though dozens of empty low-sec systems every day. I know that people jump freighters into Beke and Leran all day long with almost nobody in system.
has it ever occured there are reasons some systems are empty?
Blobbing Explained
|
Khorvek
Dead Pool Syndicate
11
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 10:07:31 -
[98] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Khorvek wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Khorvek wrote:
On the game mechanics side, I see the point in not allowing people to go right to a station. Eventually everyone will just use jump capable ships to move goods, which is crippling to the economy, and the PVP side of the game.
This has to be one of the stupidest things I've seen written down this week..... Improving logistics has never been bad for any economy anywhere. Anybody stating it is bad for the economy should go sit in the corner and feel ashamed. And no, there are still times you might want to use ships other than a JF. I often use a transport for a few reaons: 1. Its great when hauling high value "small" cargo. 2. It is nearly impervious to high sec ganking if you are manually flying through HS. 3. If you are moving via some sort of jump bridge, low fatigue. And no, JFs are not going to make PvP less common. Maybe you should learn something about economies, then. The safer goods hauling is, the more stuff saturates the market. The more stuff saturates the market, the lower the price of a good, and therefore the move volume you must sell to make the same profit. I assume you're the same type of person who still mines veldspar even when trit is crashing. An expanding economy (more goods and services) does not have to mean lower prices and is not a bad thing. People both in game and IRL do not want less goods and services, they want more. From this the idea the more goods is somehow bad is simply laughable. And an expanding economy does not have to result in reduced prices. Markets tend to be self-correcting as well.[1] If too much is produced then the price reduction is to clear the market and signal people producing in that market to leave that market. Just as if prices increase it signals people to enter that market to produce more. So prices cannot just decrease without end...or if they are it is indicative of a more serious problem like a contraction of the money supply which can lead to deflation. And in any event JFs do not produce in game goods. A JF moves goods around the economy getting it from sellers to final buyers. There are a number of JF pilots who are probably best described as engaged in arbitrage. They buy in Jita at a given price and then move their goods to NS where they can charge a higher price. This is not producing goods, but is instead essentially a service.
What? Obviously people want more. Have you looked at De Beers lately? They withhold saturating the market with their stockpile of diamonds, simply because that'd mean diamonds would become worthless.
I suggest you go read some supply and demand.
I don't understand the issue people seem to believe in inflation due to mission runners and ratting...
Without missions and rats, isk wouldn't exist in Eve. All trading, selling T2 stuff, and buying ore, all of it depends on isk generated elsewhere.
|
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
106
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 11:36:25 -
[99] - Quote
Khorvek wrote:
Maybe you should learn something about economies, then. The safer goods hauling is, the more stuff saturates the market. The more stuff saturates the market, the lower the price of a good, and therefore the move volume you must sell to make the same profit. I assume you're the same type of person who still mines veldspar even when trit is crashing.
Maybe you should read and understand what people are talking about instead of quoting Business insider web pages?
Low demand and a saturated market cause prices to drop until trader give up (due to low margin) but this has absolutely no influence on PVP. It's only a game between supply and demand which in the end drives the price and nothing else.
On the other side people who want to shoot things need to re stock ammo, modules and ships. When you stop resupplying an area people will have to move away - either in the last remaining ship they have, in a pod or using pod express. So instead of complaining about markets being seeded by traders you should be glad to have them, or do you want to fly back to Jita from the edge of the universe just to pick up another frig and some modules whenever you loose one?
If you believe that Blockade runners offer enough cargo hold to replace JF for seeding markets and not drying up any place in Lowsec/Null then you never had a look at the fitting details of these ship types and the required volumes (in m^3) to seed a market.
If you believe everyone will switch to JF to haul goods because they are 99.9% safe then you never had a look at the required logistics (multiple cyno alts), the costs (Jump fuel, ozone, cyno generators) the limitations (cyno only LS/NS) and the other costs (billions in skills plus a ship worth 7 billion).
If you really understand something about markets (which I doubt by reading your signature) then you would be able to do a short calculation which includes the costs and only the potential profit / low risk. |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
350
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 12:12:57 -
[100] - Quote
Juan Mileghere wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:Lakotnik wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:Xequecal wrote:The Eve economy pretty much depends on Freighters and Jump Freighters being 99.9% safe. Do you want everything in the game to cost 10x as much? If you make these ships killable, that's exactly what will happen. I would send in a scout before I jumped a freighter in or an escort to meet it. With pings for jump in I think they would still be very safe just not totally safe. You do realize most Low-sec systems are camped by BLOPS/Cap teams already right? If timed right, they can even bump you off of station in those 5 seconds you can't dock after a jump. So I'd say it's another bad idea from people who can't find content. So they want the game nerfed so they can get more juicy kills. The nerve.. No idea. I fly though dozens of empty low-sec systems every day. I know that people jump freighters into Beke and Leran all day long with almost nobody in system. has it ever occured there are reasons some systems are empty?
People are too lazy to scout them enough to know when the predators are active? |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
350
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 12:14:58 -
[101] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Khorvek wrote:
On the game mechanics side, I see the point in not allowing people to go right to a station. Eventually everyone will just use jump capable ships to move goods, which is crippling to the economy, and the PVP side of the game.
This has to be one of the stupidest things I've seen written down this week..... Improving logistics has never been bad for any economy anywhere. Anybody stating it is bad for the economy should go sit in the corner and feel ashamed. And no, there are still times you might want to use ships other than a JF. I often use a transport for a few reaons: 1. Its great when hauling high value "small" cargo. 2. It is nearly impervious to high sec ganking if you are manually flying through HS. 3. If you are moving via some sort of jump bridge, low fatigue. And no, JFs are not going to make PvP less common.
This is a game. What is good for an economy is not necessarily what is good for a game. |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
106
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 12:16:08 -
[102] - Quote
Juan Mileghere wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:
No idea. I fly though dozens of empty low-sec systems every day. I know that people jump freighters into Beke and Leran all day long with almost nobody in system.
has it ever occured there are reasons some systems are empty?
Some hints why Beke and Leran are empty: Both are low sec systems which don't have anything around them beside Highsec so they are not attractive/big enough for low sec groups. Both systems are also not important for travelling in the region (check the amount of Jumps/14h on dotlan) and can be avoided easily which makes them unattractive for pirates/gate camps.
Such more quite systems are perfect when you have to move goods in a hauler, freighter, JF or orca. And both systems have connections to HS and stations in HS which makes returning from a hauling trip more safe.
However I am pretty sure that you are wrong about Beke as cyno system. I can't find any recent cyno kill on zkillboard which is not surprising because the stations in this system are unsafe. The docking range in both cases is too small for placing a cyno within its range |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
106
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 12:16:58 -
[103] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:
This is a game. What is good for an economy is not necessarily what is good for a game.
So you want to tell us you don't require a ship to fly around? |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
350
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 12:17:33 -
[104] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:Juan Mileghere wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:
No idea. I fly though dozens of empty low-sec systems every day. I know that people jump freighters into Beke and Leran all day long with almost nobody in system.
has it ever occured there are reasons some systems are empty? Some hints why Beke and Leran are empty: Both are low sec systems which don't have anything around them beside Highsec so they are not attractive/big enough for low sec groups. Both systems are also not important for travelling in the region (check the amount of Jumps/14h on dotlan) and can be avoided easily which makes them unattractive for pirates/gate camps. Such more quite systems are perfect when you have to move goods in a hauler, freighter, JF or orca. And both systems have connections to HS and stations in HS which makes returning from a hauling trip more safe. However I am pretty sure that you are wrong about Beke as cyno system. I can't find any recent cyno kill on zkillboard which is not surprising because the stations in this system are unsafe. The docking range in both cases is too small for placing a cyno within its range
I watch people jump frieghters and carriers into Leran all the time. |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
106
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 12:42:04 -
[105] - Quote
And after this thread you still don't understand why people prefer to use some systems and try to avoid others? Do you believe low sec miners like crowded systems? Do you run explorations in null sec in a system with 20 neutrals in local?
|
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
350
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 12:48:19 -
[106] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:And after this thread you still don't understand why people prefer to use some systems and try to avoid others? Do you believe low sec miners like crowded systems? Do you run explorations in null sec in a system with 20 neutrals in local?
Nope Nope and Nope/ |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
106
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 12:59:44 -
[107] - Quote
A carrier can defend itself. A freighter in HS uses it's tank and Concord for defense. In LS/NS there is no Concord so the only way for a JF to survive is to jump from station to station and dock immediately. And you want to remove the only defense mechanism this ship class has and believe that in such a case people would still spend 10 billion isk to learn how to fly one, buy it and loose it within a short period?
|
Lord LazyGhost
Bear Bones Brigade
The Bastards.
486
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 13:09:16 -
[108] - Quote
Reppyk wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:I see so many jump frieghters in low-sec that jump in right at the undock of a station (and under its guns.) I think for content and station safety reasons all stations should prevents jumps within 10k. I support this product.
Hows about hisec does not allow anyone that has below -5 standing use its stations nor gates. as really who would allow criminals enter their stations |
Khorvek
Dead Pool Syndicate
11
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 13:13:11 -
[109] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:Khorvek wrote:
Maybe you should learn something about economies, then. The safer goods hauling is, the more stuff saturates the market. The more stuff saturates the market, the lower the price of a good, and therefore the move volume you must sell to make the same profit. I assume you're the same type of person who still mines veldspar even when trit is crashing.
Maybe you should read and understand what people are talking about instead of quoting Business insider web pages? Low demand and a saturated market cause prices to drop until trader give up (due to low margin) but this has absolutely no influence on PVP. It's only a game between supply and demand which in the end drives the price and nothing else. On the other side people who want to shoot things need to re stock ammo, modules and ships. When you stop resupplying an area people will have to move away - either in the last remaining ship they have, in a pod or using pod express. So instead of complaining about markets being seeded by traders you should be glad to have them, or do you want to fly back to Jita from the edge of the universe just to pick up another frig and some modules whenever you loose one? If you believe that Blockade runners offer enough cargo hold to replace JF for seeding markets and not drying up any place in Lowsec/Null then you never had a look at the fitting details of these ship types and the required volumes (in m^3) to seed a market. If you believe everyone will switch to JF to haul goods because they are 99.9% safe then you never had a look at the required logistics (multiple cyno alts), the running costs (Jump fuel, ozone, cyno generators) the limitations (cyno only LS/NS) and the other initial costs (billions in skills plus a ship worth 7 billion plus some months training). Finally if you really understand something about markets (which I doubt by reading your signature) then you would be able to do a short calculation which includes the costs and only the potential profit / low risk. So if you want to learn something about costs, risk and reward just take a ship, fill it with some billions in loot and then fly around a busy null sec station for a while. You will learn a lot and the first thing is: null is not empty in all areas and sometimes a single neutral in your sys can ruin your day. Btw.: last correlation: if you fly through an almost empty LS/NS system and only see JF coming and going then there is a simple reason for this. With this price tag on your head you try to avoid busy systems whenever possible. I am pretty sure for the same reason you will also find more miners in such areas.
Why don't you explain to me where isk comes from, then. Assuming you know so much, you should be able to prove that isk can be generated from player trading without missions, NPC buy orders for loot, and rats.
What people tend to do when they need resupply is to fly to a hub themselves, either on a main or alt, to supply themselves.
You claim that a trader giving up putting goods into a market has no influence on PvP, then say it does because people need to resupply their ships. Consistency, please.
No, I didn't quote BI web pages. I provided a link. The effects of market saturation are well established. The effect of getting goods to a market at no risk, in a game where there is little population growth, should also be an easy read.
Consider that there's an average of 4 alts per person in a hypothetical scenario. Most people use those alts as slave labor. They are not really consumers of the market, although they may impact the market through trade. No one plays 4 alts to give them equal time and assets + liquid capital. They further the decrease of value of goods on market, because they have little demand for goods, while being a supplier of goods. Say 30,000 players are the norm, there's ~190,000 individuals in game, but 160,000 of them are producing value while not really taking value out of the system.
Add onto that the ease of JFing stuff into a station, and you have high market saturation compared to the rate at which thing go boom. That is bad for economy because, as you said, industrialites will "give up". Either they'll stop playing Eve or they'll start pvping, or perhaps there's a third option. Perhaps they keep producing battlecruisers at a true loss to themselves.
You should join the manufacturing channel sometime and ask in chat if battlecruisers make good money.
As far as calculating costs, I'm aware that most people are actually quite bad at this, which is why you don't often see successful lowsec trade hubs with the markup that they should generally be set at, given hazard rates for losses, providing a service for ease of access, transport costs, etc.
Since you love Business Insider, here's another:
http://www.businessinsider.com/3-powerful-pricing-strategies-businesses-should-always-consider-2013-10
Miners who consider their time spent hauling ore to market themselves, or who consider their ore "free", are the most potent example of people breaking the rules of profits. They literally put themselves out of business, or into slave wages, through lack of foresight. Perhaps they don't really care much and mining in Eve is just some side entertainment they aren't "serious" about, however, their effect on economy is to depreciate the value of spaceships as well, because of the bloated inventory made by industrialists, who then also feel pressured to compete and do the same thing; overproduce and underprice.
The market can't exist without PvP or massive losses in PvE, which are largely mitigated by how simple PvE is. ISK can't exist in the economy without NPC buy orders, rat bounties, and mission payouts. That's just how things are.
I don't understand the issue people seem to believe in inflation due to mission runners and ratting...
Without missions and rats, isk wouldn't exist in Eve. All trading, selling T2 stuff, and buying ore, all of it depends on isk generated elsewhere.
|
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
350
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 13:27:51 -
[110] - Quote
Lord LazyGhost wrote:Reppyk wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:I see so many jump frieghters in low-sec that jump in right at the undock of a station (and under its guns.) I think for content and station safety reasons all stations should prevents jumps within 10k. I support this product. Hows about hisec does not allow anyone that has below -5 standing use its stations nor gates. as really who would allow criminals enter their stations
Sounds logical to me. It is suprising that CONCORD doesn't establish a penal star system where all criminals are jumped to when using gates. Once there they can never escape and it becomes Lord of the Flies :) |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
108
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 13:39:20 -
[111] - Quote
Khorvek wrote:
The market can't exist without PvP or massive losses in PvE, which are largely mitigated by how simple PvE is. ISK can't exist in the economy without NPC buy orders, rat bounties, and mission payouts. That's just how things are.
You still miss the point of this thread. We are not talking about isk faucets and isk sinks, we are talking about the need to move goods around in EVE and the effects of this proposed change.
And here the situation is clear. You need the possibility to move high volumes to keep the economy running.
Moving high volume goods between low/nullsec and Highsec and within lowsec and nullsec can only be done in a more or less safe way using Jump freighters and their only defense is this cyno/docking game which should be removed according to the OP.
Using a JF in a different way (e.g. jumping into a system without station or by using a cyno outside a docking range) is the best way to loose such a ship within a short period. It can only be done in quiet areas when no one else is around and you still find a lot of kills happening in such systems.
What you all forget is that JF haul goods which end on the market. A market can only exist if people are around so JF pilot simply cannot avoid crowded areas. |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
350
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 13:51:50 -
[112] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:Khorvek wrote:
The market can't exist without PvP or massive losses in PvE, which are largely mitigated by how simple PvE is. ISK can't exist in the economy without NPC buy orders, rat bounties, and mission payouts. That's just how things are.
You still miss the point of this thread. We are not talking about isk faucets and isk sinks, we are talking about the need to move goods around in EVE and the effects of this proposed change. And here the situation is clear. You need the possibility to move high volumes to keep the economy running. Moving high volume goods between low/nullsec and Highsec and within lowsec and nullsec can only be done in a more or less safe way using Jump freighters and their only defense is this cyno/docking game which should be removed according to the OP. Using a JF in a different way (e.g. jumping into a system without station or by using a cyno outside a docking range) is the best way to loose such a ship within a short period. It can only be done in quiet areas when no one else is around and you still find a lot of kills happening in such systems. What you all forget is that JF haul goods which end on the market and a market can only exist if people are around. As a result a JF pilot must jump and dock in crowded/busy systems, he can't avoid it. If he brings goods into regions where no one is around then he won't sell anything.
Do you think that prohibiting cynos within 10K of Empire stations would cause enough pain in null to trigger some desperation moves? |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1029
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 14:05:41 -
[113] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:Do you think that prohibiting cynos within 10K of Empire stations would cause enough pain in null to trigger some desperation moves?
You could propose a 2h lifetime on mobile warp bubbles or suggest delayed local, depending on just how suicidal you feel.
*not having minmatar T2 components in amarr space* is considered a cut into self-sufficiency, and not being able to reliably solo JF without any preparation besides logging toons will make prices explode *to ten times their current values*.
I'd say the barrier to desperation moves is a thin one. |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
350
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 14:12:35 -
[114] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:Do you think that prohibiting cynos within 10K of Empire stations would cause enough pain in null to trigger some desperation moves? You could propose a 2h lifetime on mobile warp bubbles or suggest delayed local, depending on just how suicidal you feel. *not having minmatar T2 components in amarr space* is considered a cut into self-sufficiency, and not being able to reliably solo JF without any preparation besides logging toons will make prices explode *to ten times their current values*. I'd say the barrier to desperation moves is a thin one.
I love the delayed local idea. |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
109
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 14:35:06 -
[115] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:
Do you think that prohibiting cynos within 10K of Empire stations would cause enough pain in null to trigger some desperation moves?
Let me explain some game mechanism because it seems you never have used a capital.
- A capital ship always is a huge investment and you really don't want to loose it.
- A capital kill is the wet dream of every pvp player. Flying a capital means you are automatically the primary target for everyone.
- A capital ship (without webbing tricks) needs between 9 (with a MWD trick) and over 30 seconds to enter warp after entering a system through a gate or a cyno.
- A capital requires twice the amount of time (or even more) when undocking from a station to enter warp.
- A capital moves around with 70-90 m/sec which gives you an impression how long it takes to move it if you land outside a safe spot or the docking range
- Capitals can be bumped making their time to warp or fly back into safety even longer.
- A single point is enough to stop a JF from entering warp or jumping to a cyno because a JF cannot fit warp core stabs.
- Locking a huge target like a capital is done within seconds, even when you also fly a capital.
- A JF has a huge buffer tank to withstand attacks until the ship can be docked. It is required so you can dock again after you found the area around the station crowded and/or bubbled.
- Because of no warp core stabs and low speed you don't use kick off stations as long as there is no one outside protecting you.
- There are kills where a JF was alphaed by a titan. I don't know how long a titan requires to lock a capital like a JF but it shouldn't take too long. Just don't care for a second and you have problems. Even a JF doesn't survive a DD.
- Probing down a capital requires a single run with combat probes. With 8 AU range you get a 100% lock signal. A probing run takes less than 6 seconds and can only be detected on d-scan. If you see probes in the air but haven't started aligning then good luck.
- A tackler can cross a system and lock you in under 13 seconds.
- If you rat in a carrier you have less than 10 seconds to collect your drones, align to a safe spot and enter warp when a neut enters the system. If you don't have a MWD fitted in such a case you are lost. And in case the other guy is using probes he can chase you through the system until you run out of safe spots or find a cyno to jump to.
- A carrier can fit a cloak and wait until a roaming gang has left the system.
- A JF can't fit a cloak and/or MWD - you can't hide, you can't run.
- If you try to bump off a spot with a JF to avoid bubbles you are lost. Even with a nomad set, lvl 5 skills and three inertial stabs in low you need 16 seconds to enter warp. Probing and tackling takes less time.
- Cynos can be warped at without probing and stay online for 10 minutes except you trigger the self destruct mechanism of the alt.
- Lighting a cyno in a crowded system typically results in visitors appearing on grid within 20 seconds, sometimes even less time.
- If you are not visited and shot then it's only because they assume the precious target has already docked. If we change this mechanism you will have visitors each time you light one.
- The more mass you have the more you enter a warp bubble until your ship stops. A capital has a huge mass and is slow as hell, you know what a bubble means.
- If you have been unlucky and jumped into a system and you are chased around you can't jump out again because you don't have enough cap. Jump fatigue also makes another jump impossible for the next 2 minutes or even longer - enough time to find and pin you.
With these restrictions in mind do you believe I would continue moving goods into nullsec trading hubs where 20-200 pilots are in local and 10 billion or more isk at risk? |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
986
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 14:51:03 -
[116] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Xequecal wrote:The Eve economy pretty much depends on Freighters and Jump Freighters being 99.9% safe. Do you want everything in the game to cost 10x as much? If you make these ships killable, that's exactly what will happen. I think you mean the goon (fill in any large null alliance here) memberships base and bottom line depend on JF safety. Get your head out of you patoot and you'll notice that most of eve does not revolve around null space. Quit blathering. Feel free to put some maths behind 10x more expensive. I need the laugh. JF fear is pretty tasty. I think I like it. Actually HS does depend on NS. NS is the source of most high end minerals, found and mined predominantly in NS. Similarly for moon goo (yes, there is some in LS, but not enough to offset the loss of NS moon goo should that happen). Similarly there is quite a bit of destruction in NS. That destruction keeps the markets for minerals humming along, even the HS low end market. In most economies everything is connected to everything. Do something to impact one area of the economy it will have an impact throughout the entire economy to varying degrees.
If null mining were to go away, then wh mining would become worth the risk and pick up the slack.
Moon Goo - lol, if that broke and the t2 market tanked - who cares? Ship hulls would skyrocket - sure. T2 mods?? Here's a dirty little secret - eve would do fine w/out them. Your way of eve wouldn't survive, but eve would.
t2 hulls are great, but if they became too expensive we'd just fly gila's and orthrus in lieu of ishtards. There are plenty of pirate ships out there that are powerful and fun to fly. Instead of dirt cheap as they are now, they would go back to 1 bil for a nightmare and so on. It would balance out.
The eve economy can easily survive jump frieghters not being 99.9% safe. I think it's cute how easily you connect adding some risk to JF use to the END OF EVE.
TL/DR Goons are good w/ ganking a freighter in Niarja but OMG don't touch our JF pay wagon - it would be THE END OF EVE. HIPPO-CRITTERS I say. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
986
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 15:12:22 -
[117] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:And after this thread you still don't understand why people prefer to use some systems and try to avoid others? Do you believe low sec miners like crowded systems? Do you run explorations in null sec in a system with 20 neutrals in local?
9 out of 10 null systems w/ 20 or more guys in them all dockthefuckup when I enter the system. Initiall for the first few years I thought my uber pvp reputation had them cowering in their stations at the mere sight of my name in local. As the years have passed and I've grown wiser I have come to understand that they pretty much dock up when any neutral enters system.
So, would I run any type of site in a null system w/ 20 null bears in it? I do it whenever it pleases me. Just as a cloaked ship causes no pain, a docked corp also causes no pain. The issue with a null system like that is figuring out which can opener if any will get them out of the can they are hiding in.
In general. Null has to get over itself. By no means is anything going on in null pivital to the game. Any facet out there that gets disturbed or outright wrecked will be but a ripple on the pond.
I can support this with a few examples:
warp to zero
speed nerf
jump fatigue
All of these we game breakers. So please when some dude comes on here spouting the end of eve because null is needed - look at his corp tag, giggle and move on. What they are really lamenting is this or that proposed change might possibly upset their isk faucet and it is oh so bothersome for them to adapt.
TL/DR: Those sitting on their imagined thrones will lie, cheat and spread tales of epic gloom and doom to maintain their own personal comfy way of playing the game.
+1 to adding risk to JF traffic. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
986
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 15:17:40 -
[118] - Quote
Here's an odd question that could use some explaining.
How in the sweet bejesus did eve even function before jump freighters???
|
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
350
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 15:17:42 -
[119] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:[quote=Harrison Tato]
With these restrictions already in place do you believe I would continue moving goods into nullsec trading hubs where 20-200 pilots are in local while I risk a loss of 10 billion or more isk? Even without this change here it sometimes takes me 2-3 hours until I find a time slice long enough to move a cyno alt in place and jump and I had days where I waited for hours without being able to jump at all.
Well since I proposed the limitation for Empire space...
|
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
240
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 15:24:45 -
[120] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:You still miss the point of this thread. We are not talking about isk faucets and isk sinks, we are talking about the need to move goods around in EVE and the effects of this proposed change.
Are we talking about the NEED or the ABILITY to move large volumes of material? Clearly some people think there is a NEED, that it is important, and that we should have a powerful ABILITY to do that.
We know what that ABILITY looks like now, but what SHOULD that ABILITY look like?
Dustpuppy wrote:Moving high volume goods between low/nullsec and Highsec and within lowsec and nullsec can only be done in a more or less safe way using Jump freighters and their only defense is this cyno/docking game
That's just flat out wrong. Moving high volume goods can be done with a regular freighter and safely. It just can't be done in as manhour and manpower efficient a way, but seeing as how this is a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER game . . . that's actually a good thing. Being able to haul half the market in a single player's ship and making that ship able to teleport directly from invulnerable state to invulnerable state . . . where in that is the "game"? That's God-mode. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
299
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 15:58:13 -
[121] - Quote
This change, as well as the equally idiotic "remove newb corps" change, will destroy the game's economy when all the ******* logistics people quit the game after about a week having to haul tritanium in blockade runners. People suggesting this crap just have no clue at all. Nobody is going to invest 8 billion ISK into a freighter that's more than marginally killable when performing its intended role.
Seriously suggesting something like this makes it abundantly clear you have no clue at all. It's really precious that people actually believe it's good for the game for people to have to do **** like form up escort fleets for jump freighters at every goddamn jump waypoint from Jita to the 0.0 home station. Do you torture small animals for fun in your spare time? Because this suggestion is about that level of sadism. Freighter escort ops are about as much fun as eye surgery, it's worse than structure shooting and forcing people to do this to live in 0.0 means they don't live in 0.0 or they quit the game.
It is also not possible to move **** in a freighter safely. You can get about 80-90% safety by webbing it into warp, but you can't get 100%. Further, there is absolutely NOTHING you can do to prevent a suicide gank from occurring once they're bumping you. It doesn't matter how many friends you have with you, it's almost impossible to scout the gank ahead of time because any innocuous neutral could be their bumper. Once the freighter is being bumped the rest can take all the time in the world flying over to you. CONCORD protects the bumper and their suicide gank ships from being preemptively killed, so there's jack **** you can do to prevent the gank. |
Madeleine Brioche
Bank Of Villore
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 16:18:21 -
[122] - Quote
"What if cynos couldn't be lit within 10 kilometers of a station?"
For sure you will see far less JF in low sec, JF prices will drop as hell, no more black frog, a giant threadnought.
Only CCP may estimate how many cyno alt accounts will be closed, but certainly a lot.
And finally for what ? Make a ship near useless to create no content..
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
986
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 16:30:34 -
[123] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:This change, as well as the equally idiotic "remove newb corps" change, will destroy the game's economy when all the ******* logistics people quit the game after about a week having to haul tritanium in blockade runners. People suggesting this crap just have no clue at all. Nobody is going to invest 8 billion ISK into a freighter that's more than marginally killable when performing its intended role.
Seriously suggesting something like this makes it abundantly clear you have no clue at all. It's really precious that people actually believe it's good for the game for people to have to do **** like form up escort fleets for jump freighters at every goddamn jump waypoint from Jita to the 0.0 home station. Do you torture small animals for fun in your spare time? Because this suggestion is about that level of sadism. Freighter escort ops are about as much fun as eye surgery, it's worse than structure shooting and forcing people to do this to live in 0.0 means they don't live in 0.0 or they quit the game.
It is also not possible to move **** in a freighter safely. You can get about 80-90% safety by webbing it into warp, but you can't get 100%. Further, there is absolutely NOTHING you can do to prevent a suicide gank from occurring once they're bumping you. It doesn't matter how many friends you have with you, it's almost impossible to scout the gank ahead of time because any innocuous neutral could be their bumper. Once the freighter is being bumped the rest can take all the time in the world flying over to you. CONCORD protects the bumper and their suicide gank ships from being preemptively killed, so there's jack **** you can do to prevent the gank.
1st paragraph of rage tears - if adding risk to your eve activities makes you quit - I won't miss you.
2nd paragraph of name calling and just plain freaking out that you might be inconvenienced - your inablity to see how exploding convoys would bring glorious epic play time to many across the eve universe just makes me sad. It's not about the one (you) it's about the many (me).
3rd paragraph where you prove beyond any doubt that you are a product of our entitled society - you're claim that 80-90% safety isn't enough got me chuckling, but then when you as goon starts arguing that there is nothing you can do once they start bumping you - that is where I fell out of my chair and almost go fired. On the first account - whining about a mere 80-90% safety actually speaks for itself - you sir are a pampered ninny w/ an overdeveloped sense of entitlement. On the second accout - it's your dear dear bretheren who have been imploring for 5 years that a bumped freighter has many various avenues to escape a gank. Perhaps you could produce a memo proving which one of you is correct.
Please post all the mails from other jf pilots begging for you to stop helping them argue this. It's rare for me to bother with saving posts from these forums, but this one.... pure gold. Thank you for helping me get through the day.
We need a vote. Is he for real or for troll?? I'm not sure.
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
986
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 16:39:53 -
[124] - Quote
Madeleine Brioche wrote:"What if cynos couldn't be lit within 10 kilometers of a station?"
For sure you will see far less JF in low sec, JF prices will drop as hell, no more black frog, a giant threadnought.
Only CCP may estimate how many cyno alt accounts will be closed, but certainly a lot.
And finally for what ? Make a ship near useless to create no content..
This would create mountains of content. JF pilots would be forced by their overlords to continue supporting their empires as the epic slaughter raged. Glorious epic slaughter content for all.
|
Xequecal
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
299
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 17:10:13 -
[125] - Quote
Did you play the game before JFs existed and before using Carriers to move stuff was a thing? I did. It was almost impossible to acquire anything in nullsec at anything approaching a reasonable price. Most 0.0 corps at that time had to go with essentially Communist ship doctrines where everyone flew one of three prefit ships and nothing else in order to simplify logistics. The members had to be badgered into horribly boring, completely unfun freighter ops where you and 100 others followed freighters around for 60 jumps. 1 minute align time on each gate. 1-2 minutes waiting for it to come out of warp on the other end. It was like slamming your nuts in a vise, it was anti-fun.
Not only do you want to bring back everything costing 10x as much in nullsec, but you actually want to make it worse because now you need X seperate escort fleets where X is the number of jumps required to get from highsec to your main 0.0 station. This suggestion might have had merit before jump fatigue became a thing and you could just use Titans for logistics, having them bridge the escort fleet along with the cargo. Now? It's just a supremely terrible idea that does nothing but make all of nullsec's lives miserable. |
Madeleine Brioche
Bank Of Villore
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 17:10:32 -
[126] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: JF pilots would be forced by their overlords to continue supporting their empires as the epic slaughter raged. Glorious epic slaughter content for all.
Yeah people will suicide 7b ship. But how many ? 1 per week ? 1 per day ? 1 per hour ? |
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
DARKNESS.
58
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 19:00:25 -
[127] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:
If null mining were to go away, then wh mining would become worth the risk and pick up the slack.
Moon Goo - lol, if that broke and the t2 market tanked - who cares? Ship hulls would skyrocket - sure. T2 mods?? Here's a dirty little secret - eve would do fine w/out them. Your way of eve wouldn't survive, but eve would.
t2 hulls are great, but if they became too expensive we'd just fly gila's and orthrus in lieu of ishtards. There are plenty of pirate ships out there that are powerful and fun to fly. Instead of dirt cheap as they are now, they would go back to 1 bil for a nightmare and so on. It would balance out.
The eve economy can easily survive jump frieghters not being 99.9% safe. I think it's cute how easily you connect adding some risk to JF use to the END OF EVE.
TL/DR Goons are good w/ ganking a freighter in Niarja but OMG don't touch our JF pay wagon - it would be THE END OF EVE. HIPPO-CRITTERS I say.
The sheer ignorance here.
WH mining could literally NEVER pick up the slack if all NS mining were to stop today. Not in your wildest dreams, which from nearly every one of your ignorant, half-brained, misinformed posts here have signaled to me that they must be pretty wild.
There are not nearly enough gila or orthrus (faction ships in general) prints/ships/etc available in this game to allow for a complete reshipping from Ishtars. Darkness and it's allies alone were enough to wipe out the TFI market in a short time. And btw, how do you expect to get those ships? Don't suppose you know where the bulk of faction prints come from do you..........? Ya, I thought not.
Faction ships would rocket to 1 billion a piece in no time and only go up from there. We're likely in the neighborhood of 1.5-2 easy, because not only are the prints going to become more rare as people empty out of null, but the high end mineral market will skyrocket as well.
The eve economy would adjust, but I highly doubt EVE would survive another massive blow to logistics without massive compensation and rebalancing. Such changes would bring about market prices which would completely bar entry to new players who quickly find prices quickly inflating around them past what their skills will allow them to generate. Add to that the multitude of players that will quit the game because they can no longer sustain their EVE gamestyle and would rather do something more productive with their time than join a freighter escort fleet once or twice a week like in days of yore.
The only thing you're experienced in is shooting things. You've likely never had to worry about logistics on a level past your personal modules and ships. My guess your idea of logistics is jumping to Jita in a T1/T2 hauler or covop, grabbing what you want and burning back to your WH. You quite literally live in a bubble. I dare you to venture out for a while and experience the game as a whole like many null dwellers have done over the years which is what has lead to many of us being so bitter.
/BeginHateFilledRant
A good friend in my corp just left EVE for good the other day simply because of the upcoming changes for what it would do to market stability, contract hunting, movement of goods, and construction of capitals and subcaps alike. We are losing a great friend, the pirates are losing multiple targets to hunt, and CCP is losing in the neighborhood of 20 odd accounts. How in the hell is this good for the well being of the game??? Him leaving is yet another reason I have to not play this game myself. There are even players in goons that I would be sad to see quit! Our space friends and enemies are the only thing that have kept this game alive over the years. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm sorry CCP but you've had many screwups over the years that have tested your community from bad patches to refusal to police your own game and remove the trash or deter abuse of mechanics. Player counts over the past several years are a testament to this.
I mean, I have never been so angered in my life by reading people's views over a video game it's ridiculous. I even tried taking a few days to step away from this post and here it remains. I usually like making an analogy to real life, but I can't think of one here. I mean who in real life would complain that their hamburgers are being kept too cheap because meat was too easy to obtain and transport? That doesn't even make sense.
EVE itself was once known for being a place of respectable and smart players who had an obsession with spreadsheets and min/maxing activities. All aspects of these have slipped away almost entirely. It's almost as if EVE has become the catch basin for banned League of Legends players who believe they are always in the right despite their extremely limited views and experience. The same players who consider the players providing them their ships for content AS content rather than those who can defend themselves and fight back and cry that the near defenseless are too safe because they can slip away if they do their due diligence.
/EndHateFilledRant
I'm done with the post. I realize it was a mistake to look back at it now in hindsight. I hope some of you learn a little more about the game you play in the times ahead so you can look back at your posts and laugh that you ever thought this way. But I doubt it, those bubbles are pretty easy to stay in and CCP has failed to give many a reason to leave and experience the universe as a whole. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2926
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 19:01:10 -
[128] - Quote
You are seriously comparing price manipulation to a market that is not being manipulated and saying the former is somehow better? Really? Let me be clear, monopolies are everywhere a bad thing. They result in economic inefficiencies that result in lost economic activity. Even granting temporary monopoly rights for such things as intellectual property (inventions, works of art, books, etc.) should be viewed is considerably caution.
And believe me I know about supply and demand. For example, what is the supply function in a supply and demand graph? It is the summation of each firms marginal cost function above that firms shutdown point. Marginal cost is the incremental cost associated with an incremental increase in output (in the case where the cost function is not only continuous but differentiable marginal cost is the first derivative of the cost function with respect to output). All firms determine output by the equating marginal revenue to marginal cost. Competitive firms are price takers (i.e. they have no price setting power). In this case the supply function will be well defined. In the case of a monopoly they have the ability to set price and as such there is no supply function in a market where there is a monopoly firm.
So in your example, De Beers (especially when they were engaged in monopoly practices) were actually hurting the economy by imposing a deadweight loss on the economy as well as raising prices and capturing some of the consumer surplus for themselves.
So your example actually undermines your point.
And again, Jump Freighters do none of this. Jump freighters likely result in more competition not less and more competition is a good thing for any economy. Interestingly people like Franklin Delano Roosevelt felt exactly the opposite. He thought competition was bad, so during time of economic privation he cartelized segments of the US economy and raised prices by curtailing output!
I know you wont believe me, but perhaps you believe Prof. James Hamilton at the University of California, San Diego,
Quote:The notion that if we can just create more monopoly power for every single sector of the economy, encouraging every sector to produce less so they can raise their wages and prices, that we will then somehow make everybody richer, is so spectacularly wrong-headed that I would be just as dumbfounded to find that Brad De Long believes it as he seems to be by those of us who maintain that some aspects of New Deal policy surely did make the recovery from the Great Depression slower.
I openly confess to believing that government policies that were explicitly designed to limit manufacturing, agricultural, and mining output may indeed have had the effect of limiting manufacturing, agricultural, and mining output.
Limiting competition, limiting the flow of economic goods is almost never a good thing. As Prof. Hamilton has said, it is spectacularly wrong headed.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Gevlin
Tritanium Industries and Technology
Backseat Promises
266
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 19:01:14 -
[129] - Quote
With the new structures coming into play I think this a good idea.
Station will have weapons, Player Controlled, even in High sec.
They won't a have to be at a set location.
Local economies would have a stronger chance to survive , since the life line to Jita won't be cheap,
In the small renter alliance I was once in we used freighters worm holes to get our supplies in and out of our portion of space.
There should be risk involved in moving material from point A to point B.
Soon all the tools to be independent in null sec space will be there. and once that happen I would like to see the nerf to JF happen. Then, when coming to market warfare,.... Eve becomes a Much Much Larger place
Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again.
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
986
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 19:17:31 -
[130] - Quote
Madeleine Brioche wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: JF pilots would be forced by their overlords to continue supporting their empires as the epic slaughter raged. Glorious epic slaughter content for all.
Yeah people will suicide 7b ship. But how many ? 1 per week ? 1 per day ? 1 per hour ?
I hope to bring you some accurate data by the end of the summer. (I'm so excited I just peed a little)
NOW:
1. light cyno
2. undock and jump to cyno on station
3. dock
4. rinse and repeat
POST 10K:
1. undock but stay in ring
2. uncloak cyno and daredevil in deserted / policed system of your choosing in a safe spot of your choosing
3. light cyno
4. jump to cyno
5. warp to station as daredevil webs you to safety
6. rinse and repeat
Adding 2 steps to the JF process won't break eve. CCP gets the standard +1 cyno account per JF AND +1 bonus daredevil account (Uh oh, that sounds RL profitable). What it comes down to is no more JF in easy mode. You have to make sure the target system is empty or at least safe in some way. You have to push a few more buttons (cloaks, targeting and webbing).
See guys, not so bad. It's very doable. It adds content as now there is a cat and mouse vulnerability window, but then again, if you can grasp looking both ways before you cross the street then you can get your arms around what an empty system looks like (I have pics if you need them).
From the amount of game ending cryying you would think he said "No cynos w/in 10k of a station AND you have to slow boat from the cyno to the station" This is really much to do about a minor change that removes a loophole abused by the entitled and risk averse. You guys are doing a whole lot of crying for a proposed change that will barely effect JF gameplay.
Get over it. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
986
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 19:33:08 -
[131] - Quote
Nasar Vyron wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:
I giggle at stuff proclaimed to be THE END OF EVE. HIPPO-CRITTERS I say.
The sheer ignorance here. You rant back how this will destroy the comfy eve lifestyle you've become accustomed to. .
All this because you can't light a cyno on an undock anymore?? Get a hold of yourself laddy. It's not going to be that bad.
I bet you were one of the dudes that got stressed out and upset when designers went from the one piece dress swimsuits to the bikini. You probably claimed it would ruin everything. Distracted drivers, hot dog wagon collisions, debauchery.... the end of society. |
Madeleine Brioche
Bank Of Villore
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 21:33:07 -
[132] - Quote
POST 10K:
1. wait to be alone in system.
2. get bored to wait for hours.
3. sell JF.
|
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
240
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 22:37:16 -
[133] - Quote
EVE is not just an economy. It is a game environment (a world), of which its economy is only one aspect. Other aspects include the society/societies of the player population, the spaceship/space object interactions, the inner life, thoughts, feelings, motivations of the individual players, etc. What is bad for the economy may very well be great for other aspects of the game.
What is "good" and "bad" for an economy is subjective. Jump freighters smooth out a lot of the scarcity in the economy, which suppresses volatilities and disparities in price and supply, but that isn't a "good" thing to everyone.
If there is no premium paid for goods and services ANYWHERE, then you can expect that those goods and services will be most likely produced and rendered where it is most efficient to produce and render them. In practice, this means that anything that can be produced or rendered in high sec will be. There is no premium, no extra incentive to do most things anywhere else. Is that "good"?
Monopolization can only occur in the case that there is an absolute necessity for some good or service and an absolute inability to obtain that good or service except from one source by one mean. Even without jump freighters, as long as there are Condors, there will never be a monopoly on Crows. As long as I can build a Crow, I will never NEED to buy one from someone else. As long as there are alternatives that can be acquired or alternative means of acquiring the same things, it is difficult to impossible to create a monopoly by anyone.
Besides that, we might again ask whether something, monopolies in this case, is "good" or "bad".
I think a better question to ask is this: Are monopolies, volatility, disparity, scarcity . . . are these things fun? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2927
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 04:25:12 -
[134] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:EVE is not just an economy. It is a game environment (a world), of which its economy is only one aspect. Other aspects include the society/societies of the player population, the spaceship/space object interactions, the inner life, thoughts, feelings, motivations of the individual players, etc. What is bad for the economy may very well be great for other aspects of the game. What is "good" and "bad" for an economy is subjective. Jump freighters smooth out a lot of the scarcity in the economy, which suppresses volatilities and disparities in price and supply, but that isn't a "good" thing to everyone. If there is no premium paid for goods and services ANYWHERE, then you can expect that those goods and services will be most likely produced and rendered where it is most efficient to produce and render them. In practice, this means that anything that can be produced or rendered in high sec will be. There is no premium, no extra incentive to do most things anywhere else. Is that "good"? Monopolization can only occur in the case that there is an absolute necessity for some good or service and an absolute inability to obtain that good or service except from one source by one mean. Even without jump freighters, as long as there are Condors, there will never be a monopoly on Crows. As long as I can build a Crow, I will never NEED to buy one from someone else. As long as there are alternatives that can be acquired or alternative means of acquiring the same things, it is difficult to impossible to create a monopoly by anyone. Besides that, we might again ask whether something, monopolies in this case, is "good" or "bad". I think a better question to ask is this: Are monopolies, volatility, disparity, scarcity . . . are these things fun?
The economy in Eve is one of the things that makes Eve singular. The economy is, to a very large extent, driven by the players. Players make just about everything in game (except for things like skills, BPOs, some very rare modules, and a few other things). To dismiss this to the extent you do is pure nonsense.
Why do players participate in the Eve economy as they do? The motivations of the individual players. Things like getting ships they want, skills, and so forth. People do it so they can participate in PvP, some do it because they find it interesting or challenging ("how much wealth can I accumulate" would be a valid reason).
What is bad for the economy can also be bad for the players. Too much ISK flowing into the game, for example, can cause inflation and destabilize the economy. It could also be bad for the game itself. Inflation hits people with lower incomes/wealth harder than those with higher levels of income/wealth--that is veterans could probably deal with an inflation rate that is "too high" easier than new players.
And the subjective nature of what is good and bad is not that subjective. The old T2 BPO lottery was without any doubt bad for the economy. It resulted in players forming cartels and driving up T2 prices to very, very high levels. CCP realized this and introduced invention and screwed over those players who had ground for T2 BPOs. The technetium issue was another example that was, in the end, bad for the game. The change to invention and manufacturing was without a doubt good for the in game economy. Yes, prices of many T2 goods dropped, but more economic activity is almost always a good thing.
On the other hand letting the rate at which ISK flows into the game get too high is pretty clearly bad for the game. Making things more of a grind is probably bad for the game too. Turning a game into a second job is not a winning strategy.
And just because something isn't good for everyone is true just about everything in Eve. The T2 BPO cartels was great for people who had such T2 BPOs, but sucked for everyone else who had to pay sky high prices. There was no fun in that. And the markets in Eve are plenty volatile enough what with periodic re-balancing of various aspects of the game and the complete lack of a futures market. By and large CCP takes a laissez-faire attitude to the in game economy....and that is a good thing. And it can create plenty of content.
As for monopolies I never said there would be a monopoly on the Crow or any other ship. I was discussing that specific case as another poster used it as an example of how increasing output of a good that is produced by a monopoly is bad. In fact, the exact opposite is true. Monopolies maximize their profit by restricting output and as a result there is a reduction in both goods available for consumption and also the employment of the inputs for production (including labor) and there is no way to get those losses back....except by increasing output. That poster had it exactly backwards.
And no, monopolies are not generally fun. Monopolies are fun for those who benefit, which is, relatively speaking, a small segment of the population. For everyone else they suck the sweat of a donkey's balls.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2927
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 04:28:44 -
[135] - Quote
Gevlin wrote:With the new structures coming into play I think this a good idea.
Station will have weapons, Player Controlled, even in High sec.
They won't a have to be at a set location.
Local economies would have a stronger chance to survive , since the life line to Jita won't be cheap,
In the small renter alliance I was once in we used freighters worm holes to get our supplies in and out of our portion of space.
There should be risk involved in moving material from point A to point B.
Soon all the tools to be independent in null sec space will be there. and once that happen I would like to see the nerf to JF happen. Then, when coming to market warfare,.... Eve becomes a Much Much Larger place
The key here is when NS has greater independence that it currently does. They change to ore sites in null was a step in the right direction, but I'm far from convinced it is enough.
Oh...and think of this: once NS gets more independent AND you nerf JFs...getting that moon goo and high ends into empire to sell will be more problematic...basically a nice nerf to HS too.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
986
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 10:53:48 -
[136] - Quote
Madeleine Brioche wrote:POST 10K:
1. wait to be alone in system.
2. get bored to wait for hours.
3. sell JF.
So you're underlining alone as if to imply it's an mmo and you shouldn't play alone to defend your ability to solo (ok w/ cyno alt) haul stuff w/ a JF w/out anyone being able to interfere w/ your solo game play? Next you invoke getting bored. If you don't want it to be boring - cyno into a busy system - excitement will find you.
You want to mmo up - I'll get you in fleet and we can hunt JF together. Most wh groups are very comfy with purple fleets so literally you can ask any of them to team up.
Honestly if you can't be arsed to take a few precautions - let me know. I have a cyno alt that is PL friendly cloaked 15km off the button at Amamake top belt. I'll light it any time it's too bothersome for you to actually think about what you are doing.
I will help you in any way that I can. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
986
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 11:19:15 -
[137] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Gevlin wrote:With the new structures coming into play I think this a good idea.
Station will have weapons, Player Controlled, even in High sec.
They won't a have to be at a set location.
Local economies would have a stronger chance to survive , since the life line to Jita won't be cheap,
In the small renter alliance I was once in we used freighters worm holes to get our supplies in and out of our portion of space.
There should be risk involved in moving material from point A to point B.
Soon all the tools to be independent in null sec space will be there. and once that happen I would like to see the nerf to JF happen. Then, when coming to market warfare,.... Eve becomes a Much Much Larger place The key here is when NS has greater independence that it currently does. They change to ore sites in null was a step in the right direction, but I'm far from convinced it is enough. Oh...and think of this: once NS gets more independent AND you nerf JFs...getting that moon goo and high ends into empire to sell will be more problematic...basically a nice nerf to HS too.
The problem with your self importance is that there is no external cure. Moon Goo itself is a passive isk cancer. It's part of the engine that drives certain monopolies in the game. Your desire to preserve the status quo on moon goo makes it clear that you are part of that cancer.
I'll leave you with this. Every job that is too difficult, tedious or boring for someone as elite as you to do will be eagerly picked up by some other guy within hours of you discarding it. That's the real heart of eve. All I'm getting from you is that you are lazy and are fretting over having to do things YOU consider boring and a waste of time.
You don't want to see risk in your eve endeavors (in this case JF ops). Tell me what do you want? I'm getting the feeling you want to lord over a few 1000 folks and rake in the sweat of their brows. Has executive outcomes become that detached from actually playing the game? or is it just you that desires safe play as a null entity?
I've played straight through since my born on date - no breaks - I love this game. The biggest thing that brings me down is the overall transformation in SOV null. I've watched as the game has transformed from fun, epic and exciting as different groups carved out their territories. There were great wars with meaning. There were betrayals. There were epic last stands. Now... Null entities go to war on the forums against CCP and against change. On occaision it has been to influence game change to promote stability. In game it's about how to work together to not upset the apple cart. Null used to be about greater risk yields greater reward. Look at the forums objectively - you guys are about business, isk and how to tend to your herds. In short - you've collectively lost your will to play the game with guns and force. Look at this thread - large null groups pleading (yeah pleading [wtf] that the game will be ruined if JF don't have 99.9% safety in their operations, and then you invoke a bunch of 'the game will collapse' flak in an attempt to keep folks in line.
TL/DR I'm sad that sov null is a bunch of business suit sissies.
|
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
Get Off My Lawn
960
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 12:40:04 -
[138] - Quote
You have just described a pretty straightforward and natural progression. The first people to the frontier are the ones who want quick riches and don't mind getting killed by the natives. A few years later, you have civilization and government control from sea to shining sea.
Do you really expect any system to remain in the "gold rush" "stake claiming" and "slaughtering natives" stage forever?
Making the game more painful to play will not bring back the frontier. Game mechanics did not bring the empires - with all their bureaucracy and organization - to Eve. Players did. Players organized and imposed order on the universe - because those who could not organize effectively did not survive. If you make the game more painful to play, the best organized groups will still find ways around it. What groups do you think can best organize 1000 players to conduct weekly or monthly freighter move operations? The same ones who can currently control enough space to move their ships in relative safely today.
Honestly, you sound like someone bitching about the pernicious effects of the Transcontinental Railroad in the Internet Age.
I do not envy CCP as they attempt to balance between fighting stagnation in Eve and trying to keep their current players happy. If you can figure out a way to roll back Eve's clock 10 years without killing Eve, I'm sure there is a job for you in Iceland.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
986
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 14:14:15 -
[139] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:You have just described a pretty straightforward and natural progression. The first people to the frontier are the ones who want quick riches and don't mind getting killed by the natives. A few years later, you have civilization and government control from sea to shining sea.
Do you really expect any system to remain in the "gold rush" "stake claiming" and "slaughtering natives" stage forever?
Making the game more painful to play will not bring back the frontier. Game mechanics did not bring the empires - with all their bureaucracy and organization - to Eve. Players did. Players organized and imposed order on the universe - because those who could not organize effectively did not survive. If you make the game more painful to play, the best organized groups will still find ways around it. What groups do you think can best organize 1000 players to conduct weekly or monthly freighter move operations? The same ones who can currently control enough space to move their ships in relative safely today.
Honestly, you sound like someone bitching about the pernicious effects of the Transcontinental Railroad in the Internet Age.
I do not envy CCP as they attempt to balance between fighting stagnation in Eve and trying to keep their current players happy. If you can figure out a way to roll back Eve's clock 10 years without killing Eve, I'm sure there is a job for you in Iceland.
I think the big trick is to impose a system where 500 guys working together is fun, 5000 working together is just too much effort and/or not fun, and there is no way to get two or more groups of 5000 to ever work together. Right now to go to SOV null the options are join a big guy, rent from a big guy or get your dreams crushed. That's just not cool.
My take is there is a large difference in what 5000 cfc pilots want to do for fun and what the 8 guys leading it want to do for fun. Take jump fatigue. Those 8 guys put up a massive wall of 'this will end eve', 'subs will be pulled', and so on. What is really happening? Eve stagnation is breaking up a bit. Not everyone is listening to 8 guys give orders. There are rumors of actual meaningful pvp.
I think at the end of the day, if CCP brought back the wild west then 8 angry businessmen would rage quite and 5000 other dudes would quick enough figure what to do next. I really believe that and I really believe they would only be risking 8 subs not 5000 when they do it. We could get philisophical about passive moon isk, SRP being equivalent to eve corprate wellfare and a whole bunch of stuff. How to herd cats AND have fun 301 should be a required course for alliance leaders.
JF cynos moving off the station probably won't change much of anything. As always, the smart and cautious will survive... they'll just have to do a little work to get there. The careless and cocky will get what they deserve. What personally irks me is the free ride JF pilots currently have. No risk is BS. The fact that folks actually argue that it NEEDS to be easy AND risk free to allow others to play the game just rubs my fur wrong on a couple of levels (the entitlement thing).
Final note - a group of 100 men don't need a leader, a group of 100 men creates a leader. Eve and on a grand scale humanity doesn't need any SPECIFIC leader - the group always provides the leadership it needs in due time. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
581
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 14:51:13 -
[140] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Madeleine Brioche wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: JF pilots would be forced by their overlords to continue supporting their empires as the epic slaughter raged. Glorious epic slaughter content for all.
Yeah people will suicide 7b ship. But how many ? 1 per week ? 1 per day ? 1 per hour ? I hope to bring you some accurate data by the end of the summer. (I'm so excited I just peed a little) NOW: 1. light cyno 2. undock and jump to cyno on station 3. dock 4. rinse and repeat POST 10K: 1. undock but stay in ring 2. uncloak cyno and daredevil in deserted / policed system of your choosing in a safe spot of your choosing 3. light cyno 4. jump to cyno 5. warp to station as daredevil webs you to safety 6. rinse and repeat Adding 2 steps to the JF process won't break eve. CCP gets the standard +1 cyno account per JF AND +1 bonus daredevil account (Uh oh, that sounds RL profitable).
Look at that! Common sense in the thread!
EMERGENT GAMEPLAY
You could also use a Machariel to bump your JF into the station. 
Of course, proper fleet operations will not have to resort to this with military escort.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
240
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 15:22:32 -
[141] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:You have just described a pretty straightforward and natural progression. The first people to the frontier are the ones who want quick riches and don't mind getting killed by the natives. A few years later, you have civilization and government control from sea to shining sea.
Do you really expect any system to remain in the "gold rush" "stake claiming" and "slaughtering natives" stage forever?
Making the game more painful to play will not bring back the frontier. Game mechanics did not bring the empires - with all their bureaucracy and organization - to Eve. Players did. Players organized and imposed order on the universe - because those who could not organize effectively did not survive. If you make the game more painful to play, the best organized groups will still find ways around it. What groups do you think can best organize 1000 players to conduct weekly or monthly freighter move operations? The same ones who can currently control enough space to move their ships in relative safely today.
Honestly, you sound like someone bitching about the pernicious effects of the Transcontinental Railroad in the Internet Age.
I do not envy CCP as they attempt to balance between fighting stagnation in Eve and trying to keep their current players happy. If you can figure out a way to roll back Eve's clock 10 years without killing Eve, I'm sure there is a job for you in Iceland.
Tell the people who worked on the moon landing or the people who dove down to the bottom of the Marianas Trench or the first people to visit the north or south poles or Leif Ericson (think about that one) or . . . hey, tell "the natives" that they went there for quick riches.
Maybe YOU went to null for quick riches, but most people I've met go there to PLAY (as if this thread was even about null, specifically).
Clearly, your mind has become infected by some sort of fatalistic, defeatist philosophy that prevents you from seeing a bright future for the game (or civilization), but you, YOURSELF, have not given up yet, because here you are posting about the game, still. You have to decide what you believe. You have to choose. Is it a bright future or a bleak future? I hope you make a heroic choice.
Practically, I will say it again. Even a regular, Tech I freighter can be moved safely, even through hostile space. I've helped to do it. I've see it done. Your claim that it takes a thousand players is either dishonest or idiotic. Ten 1-month old Griffin pilots could secure a freighter most of the time. How much moreso a jump freighter that doesn't even have to use gates? How much moreso with 50 Rook pilots?
This is a not a single player game. |
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1183
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 15:54:36 -
[142] - Quote
And how many of those 51 pilots are having fun?
GêÜ0 is my bet.
I can only imagine it is the most soul destroying thing in eve, after guarding ice miners.
Furthermore, if you're going to be asinine about, what are those escorts going to do against a titan drive by?
All of the game aspects have moved on since the freighter escort days, not just one or two.
Also, how do you propose you escort a jump ship? Add a bridging jumping titan to the mix? Have a double fleet and leap frog? Log it out in the middle whilst the subcaps catch up? |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
986
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 17:07:56 -
[143] - Quote
afkalt wrote:And how many of those 51 pilots are having fun?
GêÜ0 is my bet.
I can only imagine it is the most soul destroying thing in eve, after guarding ice miners.
Furthermore, if you're going to be asinine about, what are those escorts going to do against a titan drive by?
All of the game aspects have moved on since the freighter escort days, not just one or two.
Also, how do you propose you escort a jump ship? Add a bridging jumping titan to the mix? Have a double fleet and leap frog? Log it out in the middle whilst the subcaps catch up?
You really don't. Just cloak your cyno in the target system and when it's clear - uncloak and go for it.
If you're in a super duper alliance, just um coordinate the jumps. I can only assume that cfc has the resources to hold safe the docking ring of a ls system twice a day to allow your freighter pilots to make some moves. You don't have to suddenly provide 32 gate coverage for the JF route and the requirement for JF protection to jump with it is just made up and not necessary. I can see some security issues in LS systems and a few chokepoints in null, but if I can see them so can you.
tbh I don't really care what you guys do or don't do to compensate. I really just dislike the current risk free aspect... it just doesn't sit right with me or everything else in eve. I just giggle when you guys say stuff like "I paid 9billion isk for my JF. I shouldn't have to put it at risk. That's just not reasonable.... 9 billion isk"
The point of this isn't to break eve. It's not anti JF. It's not even anti large null allaince (well, for me it kind of is, but not the OP as far as I can tell). It's about abuse of current game mechanics to move bazillions (12 zeros I think on that) in assets risk free. Look at it this way JF pilots - you had a really good run of free jumping. It's at its end. Be happy for all the free you have accumulated, don't despair over the future.
Does anyone logging in to eve ever deserve a free ride? I say HELL NO
OH, if you want soul destroying - participate in an ishtar or archon sentry fleet (this includes staying at the keyboard and watching the action once you've assigned your drones to an elite pvp pilot). Guarding ice miners takes all day. Guarding a cyno takes a few min per cycle. |
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1184
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 17:14:33 -
[144] - Quote
So make them 90m and we can talk ;)
Other capitals don't get a fair comparison because they're not flown so frequently and across such vast distances. |
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
122
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 17:30:32 -
[145] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Xequecal wrote:This change, as well as the equally idiotic "remove newb corps" change, will destroy the game's economy when all the ******* logistics people quit the game after about a week having to haul tritanium in blockade runners. People suggesting this crap just have no clue at all. Nobody is going to invest 8 billion ISK into a freighter that's more than marginally killable when performing its intended role.
Seriously suggesting something like this makes it abundantly clear you have no clue at all. It's really precious that people actually believe it's good for the game for people to have to do **** like form up escort fleets for jump freighters at every goddamn jump waypoint from Jita to the 0.0 home station. Do you torture small animals for fun in your spare time? Because this suggestion is about that level of sadism. Freighter escort ops are about as much fun as eye surgery, it's worse than structure shooting and forcing people to do this to live in 0.0 means they don't live in 0.0 or they quit the game.
It is also not possible to move **** in a freighter safely. You can get about 80-90% safety by webbing it into warp, but you can't get 100%. Further, there is absolutely NOTHING you can do to prevent a suicide gank from occurring once they're bumping you. It doesn't matter how many friends you have with you, it's almost impossible to scout the gank ahead of time because any innocuous neutral could be their bumper. Once the freighter is being bumped the rest can take all the time in the world flying over to you. CONCORD protects the bumper and their suicide gank ships from being preemptively killed, so there's jack **** you can do to prevent the gank. 1st paragraph of rage tears - if adding risk to your eve activities makes you quit - I won't miss you. 2nd paragraph of name calling and just plain freaking out that you might be inconvenienced - your inablity to see how exploding convoys would bring glorious epic play time to many across the eve universe just makes me sad. It's not about the one (you) it's about the many (me). 3rd paragraph where you prove beyond any doubt that you are a product of our entitled society - you're claim that 80-90% safety isn't enough got me chuckling, but then when you as goon starts arguing that there is nothing you can do once they start bumping you - that is where I fell out of my chair and almost go fired. On the first account - whining about a mere 80-90% safety actually speaks for itself - you sir are a pampered ninny w/ an overdeveloped sense of entitlement. On the second accout - it's your dear dear bretheren who have been imploring for 5 years that a bumped freighter has many various avenues to escape a gank. Perhaps you could produce a memo proving which one of you is correct. Please post all the mails from other jf pilots begging for you to stop helping them argue this. It's rare for me to bother with saving posts from these forums, but this one.... pure gold. Thank you for helping me get through the day. We need a vote. Is he for real or for troll?? I'm not sure.
Winning post of this entire thread.
Don't like losses? Increase your sell order price to compensate. Going to cry about how you'll be put out of business compared to other people? They have to take the same risk, and should logically increase their prices as well.
The day a goon whines like an entitled baby about needing 100% safety is the day EvE died.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
988
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 17:35:13 -
[146] - Quote
afkalt wrote:So make them 90m and we can talk ;)
Other capitals don't get a fair comparison because they're not flown so frequently and across such vast distances.
I would love one of you JF jockies to link the graphs of price vs deserved safety, frequency flown vs. deserved safety or anything vs. deserved safety.
For price. When I drop a plexing fleet on a sight the isk I put out there far far far outweighs the price of your JF (and more likely than not its contents too). So if the 'high value = safety' argument is valid.... how can LH keep ganking my plexing fleet and why am I not complaining about it on the forums?
For frequency. The more I do sites (the more isk I make) the more safety I deserve?? On one hand I like the way you guys think, but on the other hand - NO.
For distance travelled. Ok you got me there - I really don't travel over great distances. I'm just not seeing the validity of 'I travel really far' (do to 'I whined for fatigue reduction') equating to 'I deserve a risk free trip'.
All your arguments are completely upside down when compared with everything that eve stands for. I just don't get it. You had a good run lads be thankful. You whined..... errrr locked in fatigue reductions so be double thankful. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
586
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 17:35:40 -
[147] - Quote
afkalt wrote:
Other capitals don't get a fair comparison because they're not flown so frequently and across such vast distances.
You realise this would affect all capitals.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
123
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 17:41:15 -
[148] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Dustpuppy wrote:You still miss the point of this thread. We are not talking about isk faucets and isk sinks, we are talking about the need to move goods around in EVE and the effects of this proposed change. Are we talking about the NEED or the ABILITY to move large volumes of material? Clearly some people think there is a NEED, that it is important, and that we should have a powerful ABILITY to do that. We know what that ABILITY looks like now, but what SHOULD that ABILITY look like? Dustpuppy wrote:Moving high volume goods between low/nullsec and Highsec and within lowsec and nullsec can only be done in a more or less safe way using Jump freighters and their only defense is this cyno/docking game That's just flat out wrong. Moving high volume goods can be done with a regular freighter and safely. It just can't be done in as manhour and manpower efficient a way, but seeing as how this is a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER game . . . that's actually a good thing. Being able to haul half the market in a single player's ship and making that ship able to teleport directly from invulnerable state to invulnerable state . . . where in that is the "game"? That's God-mode.
You can haul goods safely in well tanked and stabbed T1s as long as you're willing to take the risk that every so often there will be a gatecamp you cant get through, and get killed.
But again, the people here whining are risk averse and don't know how to offset their costs.
Also, the Bestower is absolute dog garbage for hauling anything but ore in highsec. You can get superior tank and equal hauling space, with faster align time, in a well tanked and stabbed sigil. It doesn't need to wait around as long at the gate to warp off, which is nicely compounding with the much higher EHP, even with cargohold expanders on.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
|
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
123
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 17:44:48 -
[149] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:You have just described a pretty straightforward and natural progression. The first people to the frontier are the ones who want quick riches and don't mind getting killed by the natives. A few years later, you have civilization and government control from sea to shining sea.
Do you really expect any system to remain in the "gold rush" "stake claiming" and "slaughtering natives" stage forever?
Making the game more painful to play will not bring back the frontier. Game mechanics did not bring the empires - with all their bureaucracy and organization - to Eve. Players did. Players organized and imposed order on the universe - because those who could not organize effectively did not survive. If you make the game more painful to play, the best organized groups will still find ways around it. What groups do you think can best organize 1000 players to conduct weekly or monthly freighter move operations? The same ones who can currently control enough space to move their ships in relative safely today.
Honestly, you sound like someone bitching about the pernicious effects of the Transcontinental Railroad in the Internet Age.
I do not envy CCP as they attempt to balance between fighting stagnation in Eve and trying to keep their current players happy. If you can figure out a way to roll back Eve's clock 10 years without killing Eve, I'm sure there is a job for you in Iceland.
So we're in agreement then. Fixing the relative immunity of JFs would actually cause alliances of people to want to carve up lowsec for safety reasons, thus creating more chances for emergent gameplay, giving rise to alliances that patrol lowsec against pirates, making it safe for JFs.
You make a great point for this change actually improving the game's roundedness for what players can do, or might want to do.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
|
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
123
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 17:54:44 -
[150] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Here's an odd question that could use some explaining.
How in the sweet bejesus did eve even function before jump freighters???
Apparently EvE was dead before jump freighters were introduced... for about 5+ years it was just a theory game with 50k accounts.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
|
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1184
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 18:06:18 -
[151] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:afkalt wrote:
Other capitals don't get a fair comparison because they're not flown so frequently and across such vast distances.
You realise this would affect all capitals. And possibly Titans/Motherships being able to dock in the new XL structures.
Obviously but my point is, people don't YOLO their archons from jita to the outer reaches and back again. They have a far better, /contained/ area of operations.
So saying other things (like supers) already suffer this is disingenuous.
Is the situation today ideal? Not really - but taking a pragmatic, realistic view it's well placed in the grand scheme. This change won't result in more capital kills, quite the opposite. It will also cause a monumental ballache to logistics all over eve and we'll all pay for that.
The idea in isolation is arguably nice, but it doesn't stand up when human nature is considered along with it. The risk to a noncombatant ship of this cost isn't worth the reward to the owner. Escorts are a (terrible) idea but fall down on the sheer volume of runs performed.
Supers not being allowed to dock hasn't exactly made them a hotbed of pvp action as a result, has it? |
Khorvek
Dead Pool Syndicate
11
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 18:32:12 -
[152] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:Khorvek wrote:
The market can't exist without PvP or massive losses in PvE, which are largely mitigated by how simple PvE is. ISK can't exist in the economy without NPC buy orders, rat bounties, and mission payouts. That's just how things are.
You still miss the point of this thread. We are not talking about isk faucets and isk sinks, we are talking about the need to move goods around in EVE and the effects of this proposed change. And here the situation is clear. You need the possibility to move high volumes to keep the economy running. Moving high volume goods between low/nullsec and Highsec and within lowsec and nullsec can only be done in a more or less safe way using Jump freighters and their only defense is this cyno/docking game which should be removed according to the OP. Using a JF in a different way (e.g. jumping into a system without station or by using a cyno outside a docking range) is the best way to loose such a ship within a short period. It can only be done in quiet areas when no one else is around and you still find a lot of kills happening in such systems. What you all forget is that JF haul goods which end on the market and a market can only exist if people are around. As a result a JF pilot must jump and dock in crowded/busy systems, he can't avoid it. It's simply a fundamental fact that trading hubs are always crowded.
No, I understand the thread. You were talking about my sig so I responded to it. You're the one who brought that up, as you later point out now that its irrelevant to the thread.
I don't understand the issue people seem to believe in inflation due to mission runners and ratting...
Without missions and rats, isk wouldn't exist in Eve. All trading, selling T2 stuff, and buying ore, all of it depends on isk generated elsewhere.
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
587
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 18:42:42 -
[153] - Quote
An empty freighter in Hisec comes under more risk than a JF full of juice jumping around stations in Low or Nullsec.
Balanced gaem
afkalt wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
You realise this would affect all capitals.
And possibly Titans/Motherships being able to dock in the new XL structures.
Obviously but my point is, people don't YOLO their archons from jita to the outer reaches and back again. They have a far better, /contained/ area of operations.
They y0l0 their whole Titans solo. As it should be.
#REKKINGCREW
Quote:So saying other things (like supers) already suffer this is disingenuous.
Quote:Is the situation today ideal? Not really - but taking a pragmatic, realistic view it's well placed in the grand scheme. This change won't result in more capital kills, quite the opposite. It will also cause a monumental ballache to logistics all over eve and we'll all pay for that.
Cry me a river.
We used to supply the whole 0.0 POS infrastructure in Tech 1 haulers, because nothing else was available at that time. 
Quote:Escorts are a (terrible) idea but fall down on the sheer volume of runs performed.
Itsa MMO.
You'll adapt and harden the **** up.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
124
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 18:51:21 -
[154] - Quote
I remember the T1 hauler days. Some good old youtube videos of a fleet of the now defunct and **** bestower, among others, feeding nullsec POSes.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
590
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 18:55:09 -
[155] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote: **** bestower
Train for an Impel, nub. 
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1184
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 19:01:27 -
[156] - Quote
Things change. Usually for the better. AOE remote doomsday was a thing too.....want that back?
Adapt? I'm not a JF pilot, I just don't want EVERYTHING to get more expensive because :reasons:
What reward do you propose for the added risk?
Do you think this change adds depth or fun to players, or just more crap so the bads can get ganked and we all pay more for T2 products?
Do you think people wouldn't just start punting blockade runners instead, wherever possible?
This idea is like saying 'nerf Titans tank so they die more'. Because.
Honestly, awful. Some people have no idea how the ecosystem works. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
590
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 19:09:35 -
[157] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Things change. Usually for the better. AOE remote doomsday was a thing too.....want that back?
Adapt? I'm not a JF pilot, I just don't want EVERYTHING to get more expensive because :reasons:
Not everything, just some resources from Null.
By 10% at most.
Quote:What reward do you propose for the added risk?
Not having to fly a freighter from gate to gate for 20 jumps thru Low/Nullsec is not enough?
Herpderp
Quote:Do you think this change adds depth or fun to players, or just more crap so the bads can get ganked and we all pay more for T2 products?
Yes, it does.
Quote:Do you think people wouldn't just start punting blockade runners instead, wherever possible?
That would be a welcomed change.
Quote:Honestly, awful. Some people have no idea how the ecosystem works.
Yes, risk-reward is broken. Ecosystem is operating on the assumption that the bubble won't pop.
Pop
No scrap that, ecosystem is flexible - it won't notice much change, and the entities who are enjoying the benefits are operating on that assumption instead.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1184
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 19:36:28 -
[158] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:afkalt wrote:Do you think people wouldn't just start punting blockade runners instead, wherever possible? That would be a welcomed change. I think you don't realise how safe current JF mechanics are, and underestimating the risk of doing the same in BRs/DSTs even with cynos 10 km off station.
I think until you know how blops cynos work, maybe you should refrain from comment....in this entire thread, tbh.
PROTIP: People dont blops cyno onto stations.
And enough with the multiquoting, it makes replies overly onerous. There's a quote limit you know. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
591
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 19:38:05 -
[159] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:afkalt wrote:Do you think people wouldn't just start punting blockade runners instead, wherever possible? That would be a welcomed change. I think you don't realise how safe current JF mechanics are, and underestimating the risk of doing the same in BRs/DSTs even with cynos 10 km off station. I think until you know how blops cynos work, maybe you should refrain from comment....in this entire thread, tbh.
This thread is about normal cynos off station covering the issue of JFs.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
124
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 19:54:59 -
[160] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:13kr1d1 wrote: **** bestower Train for an Impel, nub.
My sigil works twice as well and much cheaper, thanks nub.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
592
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 19:56:53 -
[161] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:13kr1d1 wrote: **** bestower Train for an Impel, nub. My sigil works twice as well and much cheaper, thanks nub.
Was about to suggest that alternatively, but oh 62.5k m3.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1184
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 20:50:08 -
[162] - Quote
The covert is valid when you said a blockade runner/DST is at risk using it. When youre attempting to lecture people about risk particularly around those ships in order to be taken seriously it helps if you know what you're talking about.
The very fact you think a blops cyno would happen on station, or that a DST can use one....leaves me wondering just how much experience of the logistics game you really have as well as leaving me questioning your evaluation of risk levels/logistic cost increase/likely player actions when you don't really know the mechanics involved. It's rather like arguing with Dr Nick Riveria |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
592
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 20:59:44 -
[163] - Quote
afkalt wrote:The covert is valid when you said a blockade runner/DST is at risk using it.
DSTs can't bridge to covert cynos. Did you know that there exists a whole world of gate to gate travel outside of -> Jump?
Some facerollers apparently didn't - look where that got them.
Quote:When youre attempting to lecture people about risk particularly around those ships in order to be taken seriously it helps if you know what you're talking about.
You will be free to substitute your JF with 34 BR bridges, if you think putting your jump freighter for 26 seconds at "risk" with not one Soul in local is too much for you to handle.
Quote:The very fact you think a blops cyno would happen on station, or that a DST can use one....leaves me wondering just how much experience of the logistics game you really have as well as leaving me questioning your evaluation of risk levels/logistic cost increase/likely player actions when you don't really know the mechanics involved.
Yes, keep up with your fantasy and redirection, all the while the topic remains about normal cynos and the issue of JFs.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2928
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 04:04:35 -
[164] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:You have just described a pretty straightforward and natural progression. The first people to the frontier are the ones who want quick riches and don't mind getting killed by the natives. A few years later, you have civilization and government control from sea to shining sea.
Do you really expect any system to remain in the "gold rush" "stake claiming" and "slaughtering natives" stage forever?
Making the game more painful to play will not bring back the frontier. Game mechanics did not bring the empires - with all their bureaucracy and organization - to Eve. Players did. Players organized and imposed order on the universe - because those who could not organize effectively did not survive. If you make the game more painful to play, the best organized groups will still find ways around it. What groups do you think can best organize 1000 players to conduct weekly or monthly freighter move operations? The same ones who can currently control enough space to move their ships in relative safely today.
Honestly, you sound like someone bitching about the pernicious effects of the Transcontinental Railroad in the Internet Age.
I do not envy CCP as they attempt to balance between fighting stagnation in Eve and trying to keep their current players happy. If you can figure out a way to roll back Eve's clock 10 years without killing Eve, I'm sure there is a job for you in Iceland. I think the big trick is to impose a system where 500 guys working together is fun, 5000 working together is just too much effort and/or not fun, and there is no way to get two or more groups of 5000 to ever work together. Right now to go to SOV null the options are join a big guy, rent from a big guy or get your dreams crushed. That's just not cool. My take is there is a large difference in what 5000 cfc pilots want to do for fun and what the 8 guys leading it want to do for fun. Take jump fatigue. Those 8 guys put up a massive wall of 'this will end eve', 'subs will be pulled', and so on. What is really happening? Eve stagnation is breaking up a bit. Not everyone is listening to 8 guys give orders. There are rumors of actual meaningful pvp. I think at the end of the day, if CCP brought back the wild west then 8 angry businessmen would rage quite and 5000 other dudes would quick enough figure what to do next. I really believe that and I really believe they would only be risking 8 subs not 5000 when they do it. We could get philisophical about passive moon isk, SRP being equivalent to eve corprate wellfare and a whole bunch of stuff. How to herd cats AND have fun 301 should be a required course for alliance leaders. JF cynos moving off the station probably won't change much of anything. As always, the smart and cautious will survive... they'll just have to do a little work to get there. The careless and cocky will get what they deserve. What personally irks me is the free ride JF pilots currently have. No risk is BS. The fact that folks actually argue that it NEEDS to be easy AND risk free to allow others to play the game just rubs my fur wrong on a couple of levels (the entitlement thing). Final note - a group of 100 men don't need a leader, a group of 100 men creates a leader. Eve and on a grand scale humanity doesn't need any SPECIFIC leader - the group always provides the leadership it needs in due time.
Ahh, another example of, "You're not sandboxing right."
Spare us.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2928
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 04:10:59 -
[165] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Here's an odd question that could use some explaining.
How in the sweet bejesus did eve even function before jump freighters???
Apparently EvE was dead before jump freighters were introduced... for about 5+ years it was just a theory game with 50k accounts.
Actually people used carriers stuffed to the gills with haulers in the ship maintenance array. You'd fit the haulers for max cargo, stuff them full of stuff, put them in the carrier and jump to wherever.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Ciba Lexlulu
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
60
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 05:19:37 -
[166] - Quote
Whle at it, lets change the game mechanic so all freighter cannot warp to zero but to 10km instead. |
Arctic Estidal
Harbingers of Chaos Inc
Gentlemen's.Club
20
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 05:45:36 -
[167] - Quote
This has to be a troll post. It is seriously stupid to be a real suggestion. Only reason it has a lot of people reading it is because Fozzie posted an angry face.
You must not fly a $7b jump freighter if you want to make them easy to get ganked, before you load it up with billions of items.
For everyone in alliances who move items which are not their own, you have now made the jump freighter pilot risk his $7b ship plus all the billions in collateral that he has to put up for the items he is carrying.
So for all the risk, what is the reward? So you can have easier targets because you find PVP to difficult. You now want to fight ships which have no offensive or defensive capabilities. LOL.
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13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
125
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 07:30:56 -
[168] - Quote
Arctic Estidal wrote:This has to be a troll post. It is seriously stupid to be a real suggestion. Only reason it has a lot of people reading it is because Fozzie posted an angry face.
You must not fly a $7b jump freighter if you want to make them easy to get ganked, before you load it up with billions of items.
For everyone in alliances who move items which are not their own, you have now made the jump freighter pilot risk his $7b ship plus all the billions in collateral that he has to put up for the items he is carrying.
So for all the risk, what is the reward? So you can have easier targets because you find PVP to difficult. You now want to fight ships which have no offensive or defensive capabilities. LOL.
All PvP in EvE is consentual. Its far too easy to dock or simply get away if you know when and where to avoid it. There's a million tools to prevent PvP in EvE, there are few tools to ensure it, barring gatecamps. JFs right on top of stations avoid gatecamps.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
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Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
109
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 07:41:26 -
[169] - Quote
Madeleine Brioche wrote:POST 10K:
1. wait to be alone in system.
2. get bored to wait for hours.
3. sell JF.
Plus add: 1) never happens because with a JF you move goods to trading stations and there is always someone online.
Yesterday my cynoalt was bubbled with an interdiction sphere 12 secs after the cyno went up and I only had 12 ppl in the system at the moment. Good luck in moving goods if such a change is implemented and people start specializing in hunting you. Then the 12 secs are more or less common and no longer an exception. |
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1186
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 08:02:30 -
[170] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:Arctic Estidal wrote:This has to be a troll post. It is seriously stupid to be a real suggestion. Only reason it has a lot of people reading it is because Fozzie posted an angry face.
You must not fly a $7b jump freighter if you want to make them easy to get ganked, before you load it up with billions of items.
For everyone in alliances who move items which are not their own, you have now made the jump freighter pilot risk his $7b ship plus all the billions in collateral that he has to put up for the items he is carrying.
So for all the risk, what is the reward? So you can have easier targets because you find PVP to difficult. You now want to fight ships which have no offensive or defensive capabilities. LOL.
All PvP in EvE is consentual. Its far too easy to dock or simply get away if you know when and where to avoid it. There's a million tools to prevent PvP in EvE, there are few tools to ensure it, barring gatecamps. JFs right on top of stations avoid gatecamps.
And yet a casual glance over killboards reveals 5 JF kills in the last few days. All out of HS empire. In fact more are dying outside HS empire than in.
Evidence suggests that these still die with regularity. |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
110
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 08:09:11 -
[171] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Are we talking about the NEED or the ABILITY to move large volumes of material? Clearly some people think there is a NEED, that it is important, and that we should have a powerful ABILITY to do that.
We are talking about both. There are structures ingame which exceed the cargo volume of a BR (battle cruiser), you need something bigger to move them. And even if the cargo fits you don't want to go into NS and back again with three frigs stored in a BR when you earn only maybe 6 million isk doing this.
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Dustpuppy wrote:Moving high volume goods between low/nullsec and Highsec and within lowsec and nullsec can only be done in a more or less safe way using Jump freighters and their only defense is this cyno/docking game That's just flat out wrong. Moving high volume goods can be done with a regular freighter and safely. It just can't be done in as manhour and manpower efficient a way, but seeing as how this is a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER game . . . that's actually a good thing. [/quote]
Stop thinking in Goons when you think about corp sizes and the amount of pilots they can assign to move goods. If you don't have 50-100 pilots to protect your stuff you will loose it to any gatecamp in Nullsec.
But instead of talking in theory, let's prove us that you are wrong. I will set up a a contract for you which requires a freighter or a similar ship and you move the goods from Jita to a NPC nullsec station to ensure you can dock.
Show me that you can seed a market without a JF, move something for me to D87E-A in Curse.
Let's see if you can moonwalk your freighter through the Gatecamps of Khabi and 7Q and drift through GW. Only 47 jumps to do. Man that's easy according to your suggestion. You just need some protection, I heard Ebola is very active in this region and can even bring some carriers and dreads if needed.
You can also choose the shortest way through HED-GP in Catch. Shorter, less jumps, however I heard in HED you require some more ships to protect stuff.
Or come down the road from Derelik over Doril and VOL-MI. Very attractive. |
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1187
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 08:38:53 -
[172] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Are we talking about the NEED or the ABILITY to move large volumes of material? Clearly some people think there is a NEED, that it is important, and that we should have a powerful ABILITY to do that.
We are talking about both. There are structures ingame which exceed the cargo volume of a BR (battle cruiser), you need something bigger to move them. And even if the cargo fits you don't want to go into NS and back again with three frigs stored in a BR when you earn only maybe 6 million isk doing this. Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Dustpuppy wrote:Moving high volume goods between low/nullsec and Highsec and within lowsec and nullsec can only be done in a more or less safe way using Jump freighters and their only defense is this cyno/docking game That's just flat out wrong. Moving high volume goods can be done with a regular freighter and safely. It just can't be done in as manhour and manpower efficient a way, but seeing as how this is a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER game . . . that's actually a good thing. Stop thinking in Goons when you think about corp sizes and the amount of pilots they can assign to move goods. If you don't have 50-100 pilots to protect your stuff you will loose it to any gatecamp in Nullsec. You know how ******* easy it is to point the freighter and focus fire on it and how hard it is for your protection fleet to do something against this? Just kick in a bunch of talos which are also used in HS ganking and alpha them away faster than your protectors can kill the attackers. With a 1 billion isk ship (plus multi billion cargo) it's worth it and you will be able to grab the loot because the others don't have a spare freighter to pick up the remains of the wreck But instead of talking about theory, let's prove us that you are wrong. I will set up a a contract for you which requires a freighter or a similar ship and you move the goods from Jita to a NPC nullsec station to ensure you can dock. Nothing special, nothing expensive - four station vaults so you can't use a JF. No collateral, just your freighter you might loose Show me that you can seed a market without a JF, move something for me to D87E-A in Curse. Let's see if you can moonwalk your freighter through the Gatecamps of Khabi and 7Q and drift through GW. Only 47 jumps to do. Man that's easy according to your suggestion. You just need some protection, I heard Ebola is very active in this region and can even bring some carriers and dreads if needed. You can also choose the shortest way through HED-GP in Catch. Shorter, less jumps, however I heard in HED you require some more ships to protect stuff. Or come down the road from Derelik over Doril and VOL-MI. Very attractive. You know PL is around in this area and sometimes you can find up to 250 pilots online in one sys? Good luck. If anyone else wants to prove me wrong, send an ingame email to Dustpuppy. As said, it's too easy how it is at the moment and some risks have to be added. Show me that you are right.
This post should be enshrined in a sticky.
I know that area of space fairly well, the locals would be over you like piranhas. They'd even set aside local differences for the fight too. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
596
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 09:18:06 -
[173] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:Arctic Estidal wrote:This has to be a troll post. It is seriously stupid to be a real suggestion. Only reason it has a lot of people reading it is because Fozzie posted an angry face.
You must not fly a $7b jump freighter if you want to make them easy to get ganked, before you load it up with billions of items.
For everyone in alliances who move items which are not their own, you have now made the jump freighter pilot risk his $7b ship plus all the billions in collateral that he has to put up for the items he is carrying.
So for all the risk, what is the reward? So you can have easier targets because you find PVP to difficult. You now want to fight ships which have no offensive or defensive capabilities. LOL.
All PvP in EvE is consentual. Its far too easy to dock or simply get away if you know when and where to avoid it. There's a million tools to prevent PvP in EvE, there are few tools to ensure it, barring gatecamps. JFs right on top of stations avoid gatecamps.
Don't mind them.
Twenty five seconds vulnerability on a trip that would otherwise involve putting your freighter at RISK each time you go through a new system times the number of systems - that is unfathomable.
Broken mechanic will be fixed soon enough, just as SKYNET was.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
111
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 09:48:39 -
[174] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Twenty five seconds vulnerability on a trip that would otherwise involve putting your freighter at RISK each time you go through a new system times the number of systems - that is unfathomable.
I am pretty sure you don't fly capitals because otherwise you wouldn't call 25 seconds in space "low risk". As I have mentioned, there are many places which aren't under SOV control and aren't quiet and empty. Any NPC area falls into this category.
But because you like maths, do me a favor and calculate me the risk of loosing a ship when the following rules apply:
The cyno is light and becomes visible. Now the clock is running...
You switch to the JF pilot or tell your colleague to jump over TS. Jumping to the cyno requires the same amount of seconds like using a gate - 5 seconds. After arrival your ship (without webber) requires 26 seconds to enter warp. This sums up to 31 seconds plus some additional reaction time for moving your ship away from the cyno.
Your cyno is bubbled with an interdiction probe 12 seconds after you have light it. An interdiction sphere has a range of 20km while you land 5km off the cyno so you are 100% warp scrambled after that point. Launching a probe can done without a lock, no delays here while your webber needs a lock after your JF became visible.
Now the calculation: How many webbers do you need to reduce the required time so your JF can enter warp?
Please don't come up with "quiet space" or I will also assign a contract to you to bring in goods into a NPC station of my choice. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
308
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 09:54:48 -
[175] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Here's an odd question that could use some explaining.
How in the sweet bejesus did eve even function before jump freighters???
Apparently EvE was dead before jump freighters were introduced... for about 5+ years it was just a theory game with 50k accounts.
Before JFs, people used carriers as pseudo JFs. Before that, nullsec had no functioning economy and almost no PvE occurred there, it was simply too high risk and little reward. Belt ratting was half the isk/hr of highsec level fours and had considerable risk as well.
Today, nullsec has tons of PvE content and thus people need ships to do that content. Back then, the only PvE content in nullsec worth doing was the static complexes, all of which were claimed by an alliance and farmed regularly. The real draw of nullsec was the R64s, and alliances formed to hold them. Nullsec had no economy, most corps used a Communist system with a high tax rate to keep people out of highsec and had a doctrine of 2 or 3 ships that would get bought in Jita and freighter oped down, ops that were so ****** corp members had to be dragged on them kicking and screaming. The game was very boring when scheduled PvP ops for which you were provided ships weren't going on, most people had out of corp alts based in highsec to run level fours and/or PvP in lowsec. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
599
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 10:00:25 -
[176] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Twenty five seconds vulnerability on a trip that would otherwise involve putting your freighter at RISK each time you go through a new system times the number of systems - that is unfathomable.
you wouldn't call 25 seconds in space "low risk".
Yes. Call it just risk.
Quote:The cyno is light and becomes visible. Now the clock is running...
You switch to the JF pilot or tell your colleague to jump over TS. Jumping to the cyno requires the same amount of seconds like using a gate - 5 seconds. After arrival your ship (without webber) requires 26 seconds to enter warp. This sums up to 31 seconds plus some additional reaction time for moving your ship away from the cyno.
Your cyno is bubbled with an interdiction probe 12 seconds after you have light it. An interdiction sphere has a range of 20km while you land 5km off the cyno so you are 100% warp scrambled after that point. Launching a probe can done without a lock, no delays here while your webber needs a lock after your JF became visible.
Get some proper scouts.
And then a webber.
And then an escort.
High stakes, high-er rewards.
Invulnerability -> Jump -> Invulnerability -> Jump -> Invulnerability -> Jump -> Invulnerability -> Jump ->
Quote:Please don't come up with "quiet space" or I will also assign a contract to you to bring in goods into a NPC station of my choice.
There's going to be a lot of quiet space with the new Citadels coming out.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1187
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 10:14:35 -
[177] - Quote
All this "invulnerability", perhaps you can explain the JF deaths this week alone? |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
599
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 10:15:35 -
[178] - Quote
afkalt wrote:All this "invulnerability", perhaps you can explain the JF deaths this week alone?
Convo the pilots, get their stories.
Should be fascinating.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1187
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 10:17:21 -
[179] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:13kr1d1 wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Here's an odd question that could use some explaining.
How in the sweet bejesus did eve even function before jump freighters???
Apparently EvE was dead before jump freighters were introduced... for about 5+ years it was just a theory game with 50k accounts. Before JFs, people used carriers as pseudo JFs. Before that, nullsec had no functioning economy and almost no PvE occurred there, it was simply too high risk and little reward. Belt ratting was half the isk/hr of highsec level fours and had considerable risk as well. Today, nullsec has tons of PvE content and thus people need ships to do that content. Back then, the only PvE content in nullsec worth doing was the static complexes, all of which were claimed by an alliance and farmed regularly. The real draw of nullsec was the R64s, and alliances formed to hold them. Nullsec had no economy, most corps used a Communist system with a high tax rate to keep people out of highsec and had a doctrine of 2 or 3 ships that would get bought in Jita and freighter oped down, ops that were so ****** corp members had to be dragged on them kicking and screaming. The game was very boring when scheduled PvP ops for which you were provided ships weren't going on, most people had out of corp alts based in highsec to run level fours and/or PvP in lowsec.
No no no. History isn't right. It's all about perception and the politics of envy.
Also babysitting is FUN don't you know, especially when the ENTIRE REGION will come dogpile on you.
Apparently the reward of facilitating content for thousands of people needs more risk so people can get cheap kills |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
113
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 10:37:13 -
[180] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Yes. Call it just risk.
Simple request: can you please answer a single question instead of using obscure messages which only show that you cannot answer them?
So here again is a concrete question:
How many webbers are required to bring down the align time from 26 seconds to 5 seconds?
Without being able to do this you are unable to jump into any system where someone else is there. This makes restocking any NPC lowsec/nullsec station impossible because the goods you move there attract buyers. Buyers mean pilots in space making restocking impossible. So in the end this idea will kill any NPC lowsec/nullsec region. As soon a the local trade hubs are gone people will leave.
Your idea with escort/scout is bullshit. PL alphas Jump freighters with drive by titans. You don't spot a cyno alt and when the light goes up it's too late. Even when you don't bring in big guns a single point is enough to pin the freighter to the place and then bring in ships to kill. |
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1188
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 10:59:14 -
[181] - Quote
@Dustpuppy.
Even if you could web it into warp, it's still dead unless you have a POS in system. Can't go to station as it would be bubbled. Ditto gates. Can't safe log off because of webs. Can't really bounce safes because you can be scanned and landed on in seconds. Can't cloak. Can't tank. Even a pos is questionable as it can be prescanned and bubbled in line with JF.
JF in open space is smoked. Other caps have, you know...slots to help them survive.
I think a lot of people have a) never rolled with caps and b) gravely underestimate the persistence and patience of those who hunt them. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
601
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 11:07:02 -
[182] - Quote
afkalt wrote:@Dustpuppy.
Even if you could web it into warp, it's still dead unless you have a POS in system. Can't go to station as it would be bubbled. Ditto gates.
You'll need to account for the coming Citadel stations when venturing to discuss this topic further.
Cynos won't stay as they currently are.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
113
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 11:27:37 -
[183] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:You'll need to account for the coming Citadel stations when venturing to discuss this topic further. Cynos won't stay as they currently are.
You still haven't learned to discuss and answer questions. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
602
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 11:34:42 -
[184] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:You'll need to account for the coming Citadel stations when venturing to discuss this topic further. Cynos won't stay as they currently are. You still haven't learned to discuss and answer questions.
Let us entertain your redirection then,
Three 60% webs should be sufficient - the Ark for example has the same mass as the Providence, but with significantly better agility, which vastly improves acceleration.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1188
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 12:33:52 -
[185] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:afkalt wrote:@Dustpuppy.
Even if you could web it into warp, it's still dead unless you have a POS in system. Can't go to station as it would be bubbled. Ditto gates. You'll need to account for the coming Citadel stations when venturing to discuss this topic further. Cynos won't stay as they currently are.
And in NPC null? Are they letting them go there? |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
113
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 12:57:44 -
[186] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Let us entertain your redirection then,
Same here, let's entertain you.
After the change anyone flying a JF would require at least 3 instead of 2 active accounts (because webber). The ship would have to announces itself in the system at least 5 seconds before it appears by handing out a warpable signal to anyone. It only could enter the system in open space and have more handicaps than any other ship type. Expensive, slow, no warp core stabs, no cloak, no surprising fits for baits and a big signature radius to make locking, shooting and probing down easier. To top this a big cargo bay would be included so you get a nice reward beside one of those wet dream capital kills on zkillboard.
Well, I understand that you like PVP and you are desperately seeking for more targets because in the current situation you either seem too dumb to find them or they shoot back and as a result you require some help pointing you to the best and defenseless targets.
So I have a proposal: Every ship should receive such a "here I am" tag when entering a system and this tag can be warped at, too. This also applies when entering through a worm hole or when using a safe spot. Cloaking wouldn't remove the tag. Don't cry, just use a small ship which can warp around to avoid enemies. Also any kind of ship should land outside the docking range of a station and be forced to slow boat into it. We also should remove "warp to zero" at the gates to make things even easier for you.
I hope that at some point even you are able to do some PVP and find some targets. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
241
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 16:22:09 -
[187] - Quote
This thread has a lot of people asking loaded questions.
What if I there's hostiles on the undock? What if there's a drive-by Titan doomsday? What if I get probed down before I can warp?
It might be helpful to take a few steps back in the logical sequence to figure out how you got to those question. They all seem based on the idea that you NEED to be out there in your big, slow, expensive, defenseless, Tech II, capital class hauler.
Well, you don't.
EVE survived before you took it upon yourself to be the market upholder in null sec.
EVE survived before jump freighters.
EVE survived before there were gigantic coalitions and supercapital blobs and fleet doctrines and whatever other justification there is for needing mountains of material to magically disappear in Jita and magically reappear in VFK or wherever it is you take them.
And, YOU survived, too.
Now, if you WANT to haul mountains of material from Jita to VFK, or wherever you take it, what mechanisms SHOULD there be in the game to allow you to do that? What mechanisms ARE there in game that allow you to do that? SHOULD those mechanisms be in the game? Are they consistent within the greater paradigm of New Eden?
Instead of telling us that anything will fail besides magical freighter teleportation, perhaps you could tell us why magical freighter teleportation is so successful or how you or we might make the alternatives succeed. |
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1188
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 17:01:36 -
[188] - Quote
The onus on the proposer of the idea is to prove there is a problem.
I await that proof. These allegedly 'invulnerable' ships have died a half a dozen times this week alone. Caps die wholesale.
So if you might demonstrate, with something strong than 'just because', the actual problem you're solving here that'd be fab.
Note (re)turning areas of space into a desolate third world wasteland because you hate they have nice things isn't a reason either.... |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
994
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 17:09:55 -
[189] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:
Pompous self indulgence
.
The truth and.... JF cynos moving off the station probably won't change much of anything. As always, the smart and cautious will survive... they'll just have to do a little work to get there. The careless and cocky will get what they deserve. What personally irks me is the free ride JF pilots currently have. No risk is BS. The fact that folks actually argue that it NEEDS to be easy AND risk free to allow others to play the game just rubs my fur wrong on a couple of levels (the entitlement thing). Final note - a group of 100 men don't need a leader, a group of 100 men creates a leader. Eve and on a grand scale humanity doesn't need any SPECIFIC leader - the group always provides the leadership it needs in due time. Ahh, another example of, "You're not sandboxing right." Spare us.
It's not that you're not sandboxing right. READ THIS TWICE - THIS ISN'T ABOUT YOU.... AT ALL.
Cynos on a station is a broken part of the sandbox that we are fixing.
It's like this:
My kids sandbox is broken. I get some nails and a new piece of wood to repair the broken part. If you look really really close in the broken corner you see some bugs and a bunch of little ants (you would be one of the little ants) using this small broken portion to move their little ant JF in and out.
You see all the good children step in and out as the sandbox was designed to do. They could trip, fall or skin their knees. They understand the risks and still hop in and play with each other. They have fun interacting with each other. All the while there are these pesky little bugs and ants acting alone in the corner in the broken part JFing their loots in a manner not prescribed by the sandbox manufacturer. If one of the kids want to play with the ants... do the ants play with all the good children?? No, they take their JF into the little crack where no on can interact with them. It's just not right!
So, me the good parent... I fix the broken part of the sand box so all is as the manufacturer prescribed. I'm not even looking at the ants when I repair the broken part. I don't care about them (your just an ant). It's about fixing the sandbox.
Now the ants... OMG the ants. They are up in their little ant arms. "THE SANDBOX WILL BE RUINED" "THE CHILDREN WON'T BE ABLE TO PLAY IF YOU FIX THIS LITTLE HOLE" "THIS IS MADNESS... ANTS DESERVE TO PASS FREELY AND HAVE AN IMMEDIATE OPTION TO NOT INTERACT WITH NO ONE, NO WAY NO HOW!!" and so on. For a hand full of little ants - what a ruckus. You'd think the whole point of the sandbox was to allow ants to JF things around and the children playing in the sand was just an afterthough.
The end?? Well almost... With the sand box repaired and working as designed the occaisional child does occaisionally step on an ant getting around propperly, oh and of course there was that one epic magnifying glass incident. Other than that, most of the good children don't really bother with the ants. They don't even notice. They don't even care about JF and ants. They just play all day in the sand.
The end. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
994
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 17:50:28 -
[190] - Quote
afkalt wrote:The onus on the proposer of the idea is to prove there is a problem.
I await that proof. These allegedly 'invulnerable' ships have died a half a dozen times this week alone. Caps die wholesale.
So if you might demonstrate, with something strong than 'just because', the actual problem you're solving here that'd be fab.
Note (re)turning areas of space into a desolate third world wasteland because you hate they have nice things isn't a reason either....
The problem is almost zero risk to a pilot with reasonable sense taking reasonable precautions.
Caps will die wholesale - something said a zillion times about jump fatigue. I haven't heard anyone complaining about caps using jump gates since jump fatigue was implemented. A few have been lost, sure, but there are no threadnaughts declaring how horrible it is. Caps are now being moved strategically and with forethought. That's the only real change that has come about.
Is that it? You don't want to have to think about it? You just want to flash your ez-pass and drive straight through? All this outcry can't possibly boil down to just plain lazy.... could it? Please please keep telling me you are fighting this not for personal reasons, but on behalf of all the citizens of new eden. Show me your super hero.
(Teckos smuggly flexes and his T-shirt literally explodes of his chest revealing a massive rainbow colored JF tatoo) "FOR THE PEOPLE!!" He begins the chant.... "FOR THE PEOPLE!!" The thousands... no millions of adoring onlookers take up his chant. The sound is both defening and righteous. Louder.... louder.... (Teckos begins to believe the people love him, need him and most of all... they appreciate him)
sniff.... sniff.... what's that burning smell?? "Noooooooo, not the magnifying glass.... noooooooo" |
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1190
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 18:00:02 -
[191] - Quote
Almost zero risk can be attained to any ship given sufficient precautions. You seem to have a problem with their effort level.
It's not a lot different to an alt scouting in a ceptor.
I'm curious, why are you opposed to making JF ~100m along with this? It's a cost more fitting with the risk. It's not even like they have fittings.
|
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1573
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 18:44:39 -
[192] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:This is a game. What is good for an economy is not necessarily what is good for a game.
One of the game's main selling points is its economy. Neck-punch the economy and the game dies.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
995
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 18:55:25 -
[193] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Almost zero risk can be attained to any ship given sufficient precautions. You seem to have a problem with their effort level.
It's not a lot different to an alt scouting in a ceptor.
I'm curious, why are you opposed to making JF ~100m along with this? It's a cost more fitting with the risk. It's not even like they have fittings.
It's not about JF. It's about cynos on stations in docking rings. JF pilots are trying to make this into a crusade against JF. You should be asking why JF skin is so thin compared all the other capital pilots. I think that is valid question at this point.
Take the number of JF complaints and contrast that to the number of other capital pilot complaints. Either there are 100 JF for every capital of another flavor in eve OR JF pilots are a wee bit whiney.
I never said I was opposed to making them 100 m. I am (because it's rediculous), but until just now I've never said that.
Why is there no end to the demands of JF pilots??
1. Jump Fatigue fairy grants major immunity
2. Have to be able to cyno with minimal risk
3. Can you make them cost 100m?
EVE 2019 headlines: Goods are moved from place to place by r-clicking destination and poof magic happens. The only pre-requisite is that 'hauler characters' must posess a CODE hauling permit costing 100m isk. JF pilots are in an uproar as no one uses their services anymore. Massive numbers of JF pilots are being kicked from major alliances for being useless. The JF pilots have formed a lobbying group and are being led by a JF pilot named Teckos. He's been wandering the corridors of Jita 4-4 brandishing a rainbow JF tattoo proclaiming current conditions aren't fair and then going into a longwinded analogy involving ants. Most citizens scurry away from him with confused looks on their faces.
|
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1194
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 19:06:20 -
[194] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:
It's not about JF. It's about cynos on stations in docking rings. JF pilots are trying to make this into a crusade against JF. You should be asking why JF skin is so thin compared all the other capital pilots. I think that is valid question at this point.
You reckon maybe it is because a JF has NO combat ability and NO active tank?
Couldn't possibly be that, could it?
A single STABBER could bump, tackle and kill a JF alone. You think a stabber is going to tackle and kill a carrier? Hell even a dread will laugh at its DPS and tank away/refit multiple stabs and jog on.
"Other" capital pilots don't need to horse it all over new eden. "Other" capital pilots have..you know...GUNS and tank. "Other" capital pilots are not the wheels which keep the economy turning. Even CCP acknowledged this, that the economy as she stands today NEEDS the JF concessions - they said they'd like to change it, but the current game doesn't allow it.
Unf**k null economy, then this debate can be had anew.
In the interim, posting melodramatic claptrap doesn't alter the reality that even if you dont like it, the economy today needs these as they are. It doesn't change they're dying on a regular basis despite your efforts to tell everyone they are invulnerable and that somehow taking appropriate precautions to increase safety doesn't apply as a valid tactic because :reasons:. Likewise pointing out that null used to be a pissant backwater you had to drag people to kicking and screaming and suitcase carriers were employed instead is in any way a good reason to go back to that crappy world. |
Titus Veridius
Calamitous-Intent
Feign Disorder
15
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 20:11:30 -
[195] - Quote
THE EMPRESS NEEDS HER BOAT FINISHED TO DEFEAT THE DRIFTERS!
http://i.imgur.com/myo5mKg.jpg
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5748552#post5748552 |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
612
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 02:45:23 -
[196] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:afkalt wrote:@Dustpuppy.
Even if you could web it into warp, it's still dead unless you have a POS in system. Can't go to station as it would be bubbled. Ditto gates. You'll need to account for the coming Citadel stations when venturing to discuss this topic further. Cynos won't stay as they currently are. And in NPC null? Are they letting them go there?
Go there - you mean the Citadels? They will be deployable everywhere, though I'm uncertain whether the XL ones with Doomsdays are going to become available in NPC nullsec.
Quote:I hazard you guys would be just as unhappy cynoing to 0 at a citadel. Or did you think they'll have enough shooting power to blap a fleet gunning for a JF?
Possibly.
Without the change, it will be just like cynoing into a POS shield. Besides, a whole fleet gunning for the lone JF under Citadel/POS defenses deserves it, if they can execute the plan properly.
The zero cynos can't stay.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 16:39:18 -
[197] - Quote
afkalt wrote:13kr1d1 wrote:Arctic Estidal wrote:This has to be a troll post. It is seriously stupid to be a real suggestion. Only reason it has a lot of people reading it is because Fozzie posted an angry face.
You must not fly a $7b jump freighter if you want to make them easy to get ganked, before you load it up with billions of items.
For everyone in alliances who move items which are not their own, you have now made the jump freighter pilot risk his $7b ship plus all the billions in collateral that he has to put up for the items he is carrying.
So for all the risk, what is the reward? So you can have easier targets because you find PVP to difficult. You now want to fight ships which have no offensive or defensive capabilities. LOL.
All PvP in EvE is consentual. Its far too easy to dock or simply get away if you know when and where to avoid it. There's a million tools to prevent PvP in EvE, there are few tools to ensure it, barring gatecamps. JFs right on top of stations avoid gatecamps. And yet a casual glance over killboards reveals 5 JF kills in the last few days. All out of HS empire. In fact more are dying outside HS empire than in. Evidence suggests that these still die with regularity.
Agreed.
I noted this days ago....but for some people no amount of empirical evidence is enough.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 16:44:48 -
[198] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Are we talking about the NEED or the ABILITY to move large volumes of material? Clearly some people think there is a NEED, that it is important, and that we should have a powerful ABILITY to do that.
We are talking about both. There are structures ingame which exceed the cargo volume of a BR (battle cruiser), you need something bigger to move them. And even if the cargo fits you don't want to go into NS and back again with three frigs stored in a BR when you earn only maybe 6 million isk doing this. Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Dustpuppy wrote:Moving high volume goods between low/nullsec and Highsec and within lowsec and nullsec can only be done in a more or less safe way using Jump freighters and their only defense is this cyno/docking game That's just flat out wrong. Moving high volume goods can be done with a regular freighter and safely. It just can't be done in as manhour and manpower efficient a way, but seeing as how this is a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER game . . . that's actually a good thing. Stop thinking in Goons when you think about corp sizes and the amount of pilots they can assign to move goods. If you don't have 50-100 pilots to protect your stuff you will loose it to any gatecamp in Nullsec. You know how ******* easy it is to point the freighter and focus fire on it and how hard it is for your protection fleet to do something against this? Just kick in a bunch of talos which are also used in HS ganking and alpha them away faster than your protectors can kill the attackers. With a 1 billion isk ship (plus multi billion cargo) it's worth it and you will be able to grab the loot because the others don't have a spare freighter to pick up the remains of the wreck
Using one of the biggest corps, alliances and coalitions in the game as your starting point is probably a bad idea. Especially if you are looking to nerf their game. Because if you nerf them, you will absolutely destroy the smaller guys in most cases. Yes, their coalition gives the Goons, et. al. some advantage. At the same time they work for it. I've been in two big alliances/coalitions and managing large numbers of people is problematic. Somehow Goons, et. al. have been able to the cat out of the hat for quite awhile (but not always). Penalizing a group of players (a rather large group) because their leadership have been leading well is not different than penalizing the individual player who also plays well...perhaps even worse.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 16:59:47 -
[199] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:This thread has a lot of people asking loaded questions.
What if I there's hostiles on the undock? What if there's a drive-by Titan doomsday? What if I get probed down before I can warp?
It might be helpful to take a few steps back in the logical sequence to figure out how you got to those question. They all seem based on the idea that you NEED to be out there in your big, slow, expensive, defenseless, Tech II, capital class hauler.
Well, you don't.
EVE survived before you took it upon yourself to be the market upholder in null sec.
EVE survived before jump freighters.
EVE survived before there were gigantic coalitions and supercapital blobs and fleet doctrines and whatever other justification there is for needing mountains of material to magically disappear in Jita and magically reappear in VFK or wherever it is you take them.
And, YOU survived, too.
Now, if you WANT to haul mountains of material from Jita to VFK, or wherever you take it, what mechanisms SHOULD there be in the game to allow you to do that? What mechanisms ARE there in game that allow you to do that? SHOULD those mechanisms be in the game? Are they consistent within the greater paradigm of New Eden?
Instead of telling us that anything will fail besides magical freighter teleportation, perhaps you could tell us why magical freighter teleportation is so successful or how you or we might make the alternatives succeed.
Okay, now expound on this dude. You know how to write something coherent and well thought out? Lets start with this paragraph:
Quote:Now, if you WANT to haul mountains of material from Jita to VFK, or wherever you take it, what mechanisms SHOULD there be in the game to allow you to do that? What mechanisms ARE there in game that allow you to do that? SHOULD those mechanisms be in the game? Are they consistent within the greater paradigm of New Eden?
This says, "I think we should reconsider logistics in New Eden." That is the take away from that paragraph. Okay, fine. What next?
You think you have an idea....well goddamn f***ing go with it you lazy bugger. I am not going to do YOUR for you.
And stop is with this magical nonsense. You come off sounding like an idiot. It isn't magic, well all know precisely how it happens. If we didn't then we could say "magic" but it isn't so its not.
Jesus F***ing Christ, I didn't think I'd have to be posting about how to write in this thread. Think of it this way, you are writing something serious, say an article in a newspaper or for a website that gets lots and lots of readers. Your job is to identify a specific problem, describe why the problem is bad and needs to be addressed now or soon, and what are some reasonable ways to address the problem. So far all we've gotten from you is a solution to....oh wait, no problem has been stated (no, having lots of stuff go from Jita to VFK or wherever is not a problem that is better described as a fact--yes lots of stuff leaves Jita and goes to NS....now why is that bad, or more accurately why is it bad if that movement of stuff quickly via JFs is bad). Then you can start talking about solutions.
Basically you've put the cart before the horse and done a lot of grrrr Goons in this thread. Which as I noted, makes you look foolish.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 17:06:14 -
[200] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Ahh, another example of, "You're not sandboxing right." Spare us. It's not that you're not sandboxing right. READ THIS TWICE - THIS ISN'T ABOUT YOU.... AT ALL.
My God...you do know about the generic "you", right? Well based on that sentence...I guess not.
Serendipity Lost wrote:Cynos on a station is a broken part of the sandbox that we are fixing.
Broken how? Why is it a broken part of the sandbox. You have assumed true that what you should be demonstrating. This is lazy and sloppy and makes you look ignorant.
Yes, I ignored the rest of your post as it was some bizzare metaphor that does not tell us why a cyno within 5k of station is bad.
One guy did try it in this thread and failed. He was arguing economics, but in the end didn't know what he was talking about.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 17:39:45 -
[201] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:afkalt wrote:The onus on the proposer of the idea is to prove there is a problem.
I await that proof. These allegedly 'invulnerable' ships have died a half a dozen times this week alone. Caps die wholesale.
So if you might demonstrate, with something strong than 'just because', the actual problem you're solving here that'd be fab.
Note (re)turning areas of space into a desolate third world wasteland because you hate they have nice things isn't a reason either.... The problem is almost zero risk to a pilot with reasonable sense taking reasonable precautions. Caps will die wholesale - something said a zillion times about jump fatigue. I haven't heard anyone complaining about caps using jump gates since jump fatigue was implemented. A few have been lost, sure, but there are no threadnaughts declaring how horrible it is. Caps are now being moved strategically and with forethought. That's the only real change that has come about. Is that it? You don't want to have to think about it? You just want to flash your ez-pass and drive straight through? All this outcry can't possibly boil down to just plain lazy.... could it? Please please keep telling me you are fighting this not for personal reasons, but on behalf of all the citizens of new eden. Show me your super hero. (Teckos smuggly flexes and his T-shirt literally explodes of his chest revealing a massive rainbow colored JF tatoo) "FOR THE PEOPLE!!" He begins the chant.... "FOR THE PEOPLE!!" The thousands... no millions of adoring onlookers take up his chant. The sound is both defening and righteous. Louder.... louder.... (Teckos begins to believe the people love him, need him and most of all... they appreciate him) sniff.... sniff.... what's that burning smell?? "Noooooooo, not the magnifying glass.... noooooooo"
Well I gues you are finally coming around to stating the problem...finally. Only took 10 pages.
What is the right level of risk? How many JFs should be blowing up? As I showed several days ago, quite a few blow up in just a few days in NS. In fact, based on a cursory glance at the data (i.e. killboards) we can see that most of the JF deaths are in NS. Now, it was a cursory glance and maybe I got a "good day" for NS JF kills. But you are the one who wants to change the game, so go out there and look at the killboards and start compiling some data/evidence for your position.
Okay, so I went to zkillboard because some people are either lazy or just can't figure out math (I know, its hard).
From October 28, 2014 to May 16 2015 (197 days, a bit over half a year) there were 183 Rheas killed in game. Of those, 92 were in either LS or NS. Typically a Rhea dies every 25 hours and 50 minutes.
So the claim of near zero risk strikes me as just errant nonsense and hyperbole by those who want something, but can't think up a legitimate method to argue.
Edit: Oh, and I spot checked 9 of the above Rhea kills for station vs. non-station systems and 7 were station, 2 non-station. So it seems that JFs are getting killed in station systems. I know those pilots must all be drooling morons or something. This cannot happen, zero risk and all that.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 18:02:34 -
[202] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:afkalt wrote:Almost zero risk can be attained to any ship given sufficient precautions. You seem to have a problem with their effort level.
It's not a lot different to an alt scouting in a ceptor.
I'm curious, why are you opposed to making JF ~100m along with this? It's a cost more fitting with the risk. It's not even like they have fittings.
It's not about JF. It's about cynos on stations in docking rings. JF pilots are trying to make this into a crusade against JF. You should be asking why JF skin is so thin compared all the other capital pilots. I think that is valid question at this point. Take the number of JF complaints and contrast that to the number of other capital pilot complaints. Either there are 100 JF for every capital of another flavor in eve OR JF pilots are a wee bit whiney. I never said I was opposed to making them 100 m. I am (because it's rediculous), but until just now I've never said that. Why is there no end to the demands of JF pilots?? 1. Jump Fatigue fairy grants major immunity 2. Have to be able to cyno with minimal risk 3. Can you make them cost 100m? EVE 2019 headlines: Goods are moved from place to place by r-clicking destination and poof magic happens. The only pre-requisite is that 'hauler characters' must posess a CODE hauling permit costing 100m isk. JF pilots are in an uproar as no one uses their services anymore. Massive numbers of JF pilots are being kicked from major alliances for being useless. The JF pilots have formed a lobbying group and are being led by a JF pilot named Teckos. He's been wandering the corridors of Jita 4-4 brandishing a rainbow JF tattoo proclaiming current conditions aren't fair and then going into a longwinded analogy involving ants. Most citizens scurry away from him with confused looks on their faces.
Because apparently you are just not getting that the New Eden economy has come to rely on the JF. Would the economy survive with less reliance on the JF? Maybe...but that is not one of the game's selling points. The economy is almost entirely player driven. Nerfing the economy, when there has been no argument put forward it needs nerfing strikes me as foolish.
And this nerf will impact all of the economy, not just NS and to a lesser extent LS, but also HS. While NS needs HS for low ends, and either moon goo a region cannot produce, HS also needs NS for moon good and high ends. Right now I'd estimate JF losses in LS/NS to about 5 trillion ISK/ year (so much for that "near zero" risk statement...don't you just hate it when facts interfere with the narrative).
More over, people often whine about the blob, coalitions (Goons in particular), the blue donut, etc.. But, with this change having more people might be one strategy people turn too. Bringing a freighter out of deep NS....having a fleet in a couple of the systems might be a really good strategy.
Oh and sorry Serendipity for ruining your "zero risk" mantra. What can I say, I'm a data driven kind of guy.
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
241
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 04:34:41 -
[203] - Quote
"If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****."
You can also tire them with tedium.
I hope you understand that we can all see what you're doing and I personally find it insulting to my intelligence, but in the interest of making you look like the deceptive person that you are being, I will go ahead and address a few of your "points".
Teckos Pech wrote:
1. Using one of the biggest corps, alliances and coalitions in the game as your starting point is probably a bad idea.
2. Basically you've put the cart before the horse and done a lot of grrrr Goons in this thread.
3. As I showed several days ago, quite a few [jump freighters] blow up in just a few days in NS. In fact, based on a cursory glance at the data (i.e. killboards) we can see that most of the JF deaths are in NS.
4.So the claim of near zero risk strikes me as just errant nonsense and hyperbole
5.the New Eden economy has come to rely on the JF.
6. Right now I'd estimate JF losses in LS/NS to about 5 trillion ISK/ year
7.people often whine about the blob, coalitions (Goons in particular), the blue donut, etc.
1. This is not about Goonswarm.
2. This is not about Goonswarm.
3. From the last 10 days on zkillboard (May 6 - May 16), the number of jump freighter kills in null / the total number of jump freighter kills are: Rhea 1/10; Ark 0/8; Anshar 3/7; Nomad 0/0.
So, either your data is **** or YOU are ****.
4. Did I mention that no Nomads have died in the last 10 days according to zkillboard?
5. It's nice of you to word it that way. It makes clear that New Eden's economy didn't always rely on jump freighters. I wonder what the New Eden economy would come to rely on if jump freighters magically disappeared. (Pun intended.)
6. We've already established that your data is ****. Your estimations are worthless. Furthermore, 5 trillion out of a possible . . . what? What is that 5 trillion as a percentage of the total jump freight?
7. This is not about Goonswarm.
Thank you. Come again. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
621
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 06:19:12 -
[204] - Quote
Damn, data does hurt.
+1 Mayhaw
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 06:29:03 -
[205] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:"If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****." You can also tire them with tedium. I hope you understand that we can all see what you're doing and I personally find it insulting to my intelligence, but in the interest of making you look like the deceptive person that you are being, I will go ahead and address a few of your "points". Teckos Pech wrote:
1. Using one of the biggest corps, alliances and coalitions in the game as your starting point is probably a bad idea.
2. Basically you've put the cart before the horse and done a lot of grrrr Goons in this thread.
3. As I showed several days ago, quite a few [jump freighters] blow up in just a few days in NS. In fact, based on a cursory glance at the data (i.e. killboards) we can see that most of the JF deaths are in NS.
4.So the claim of near zero risk strikes me as just errant nonsense and hyperbole
5.the New Eden economy has come to rely on the JF.
6. Right now I'd estimate JF losses in LS/NS to about 5 trillion ISK/ year
7.people often whine about the blob, coalitions (Goons in particular), the blue donut, etc.
1. This is not about Goonswarm. 2. This is not about Goonswarm. 3. From the last 10 days on zkillboard (May 6 - May 16), the number of jump freighter kills in null / the total number of jump freighter kills are: Rhea 1/10; Ark 0/8; Anshar 3/7; Nomad 0/0. So, either your data is **** or YOU are ****. 4. Did I mention that no Nomads have died in the last 10 days according to zkillboard? 5. It's nice of you to word it that way. It makes clear that New Eden's economy didn't always rely on jump freighters. I wonder what the New Eden economy would come to rely on if jump freighters magically disappeared. (Pun intended.) 6. We've already established that your data is ****. Your estimations are worthless. Furthermore, 5 trillion out of a possible . . . what? What is that 5 trillion as a percentage of the total jump freight? 7. This is not about Goonswarm. Thank you. Come again.
You were the one posting about Goons. You were a little snot about it too. And now you get on your high horse, "Oh no, it isn't about Goons!" So were you lying then or are you lying now?
Note, I clearly said LS/NS. And I limited it to the Rhea. Also, I went from October 28th to May 16th. So, I guess we know you can't figure out dates as well as math.
Did I mention Nomads? No.
Well since we can't use carriers as psuedo-carriers probably nothing. The supply of high ends would drop of significantly as would the supply of moon goo. Good luck in HS getting T2 modules, the prices would rise dramatically.
Considering you can't read plain English you'll have to forgive me if I don't take your assessment of the data I posted, because you are too lazy and incompetent to do it yourself, for much more than a fart in the wind.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 06:30:55 -
[206] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Damn, data does hurt.
+1 Mayhaw
You do realize he can't even read. Note I wrote, quite clearly LS/NS. Considering people often have to go through LS to get to NS...and that there are many, many stations in quite a few LS systems he completely whiffed it.
But then again, as I noted, for some people no amount of empirical evidence will sway them from their dogmatic views. You are clearly one of them.
Oh, and I did a quick look through zkillboard and nomads done't show up on many kills even in HS let alone NS and LS for the period I covered for Rheas. So...is it a shock that there were no nomads in the much smaller subset of time that Mayhew covered? Well...not really if they either don't die as often or are not as popular.
I mean **** dude, you have to look at these kinds of things. But that's okay the world needs innumerates too...I guess.
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
621
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 06:34:49 -
[207] - Quote
Nomads are not jump freighters.
CCPlease give Sandcrawler II spaceship. (a+ç -á-¦ -ƒ+ä-£ -í-¦)a+ç
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 06:44:10 -
[208] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:"If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****." You can also tire them with tedium. I hope you understand that we can all see what you're doing and I personally find it insulting to my intelligence, but in the interest of making you look like the deceptive person that you are being, I will go ahead and address a few of your "points". Teckos Pech wrote:
1. Using one of the biggest corps, alliances and coalitions in the game as your starting point is probably a bad idea.
2. Basically you've put the cart before the horse and done a lot of grrrr Goons in this thread.
3. As I showed several days ago, quite a few [jump freighters] blow up in just a few days in NS. In fact, based on a cursory glance at the data (i.e. killboards) we can see that most of the JF deaths are in NS.
4.So the claim of near zero risk strikes me as just errant nonsense and hyperbole
5.the New Eden economy has come to rely on the JF.
6. Right now I'd estimate JF losses in LS/NS to about 5 trillion ISK/ year
7.people often whine about the blob, coalitions (Goons in particular), the blue donut, etc.
1. This is not about Goonswarm. 2. This is not about Goonswarm. 3. From the last 10 days on zkillboard (May 6 - May 16), the number of jump freighter kills in null / the total number of jump freighter kills are: Rhea 1/10; Ark 0/8; Anshar 3/7; Nomad 0/0. So, either your data is **** or YOU are ****. 4. Did I mention that no Nomads have died in the last 10 days according to zkillboard? 5. It's nice of you to word it that way. It makes clear that New Eden's economy didn't always rely on jump freighters. I wonder what the New Eden economy would come to rely on if jump freighters magically disappeared. (Pun intended.) 6. We've already established that your data is ****. Your estimations are worthless. Furthermore, 5 trillion out of a possible . . . what? What is that 5 trillion as a percentage of the total jump freight? 7. This is not about Goonswarm. Thank you. Come again.
Oh, and weren't you whining earlier about JFs dying only in HS?
Why, yes you did. Quick, go edit it out before anyone else sees it!!!
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
621
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 07:00:34 -
[209] - Quote
That was sarcasm on his part, in that there's more danger of getting footballed and hyperdunked by Catalysts than jumping around with invulnerabilities in 0.0 space.
Occasional station bump doesn't nullify the point.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 07:37:36 -
[210] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:That was sarcasm on his part, in that there's more danger of getting footballed and hyperdunked by Catalysts than jumping around with invulnerabilities in 0.0 space.
Occasional station bump doesn't nullify the point.
Well, as I noted, the data indicate that the risk is fairly evenly split. 92 killed in LS/NS vs. 91 killed in HS. And if you have an emergency cyno while in HS, the risk should be dramatically reduced.
So his sarcasm was completely misplaced and factually wrong.
And you are wrong by calling it the occasional station bump or,...by the same logic the occasional HS gank doesn't nullify the point.
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
621
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 07:41:18 -
[211] - Quote
HS ganks are inevitable for certain ships when flown solo.
Occasional station bumps are a function of amateurs, and are occasional.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 07:51:38 -
[212] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:HS ganks are inevitable for certain ships when flown solo due to TWO separate mechanics, coutesy of CCP.
Occasional station bumps are a function of amateurs, and are occasional, and for this occasion there has to be a second party present to take to the occasion and generate a killmail.
Then it is your conjecture that there are more amateurs flying in Null than HS?
I'd argue it is the amateurs flying in HS that account for HS ganks. If you have an exit cyno then your JF should live. When you get that first bump, jump out to your exit cyno and dock.
And depending on where you are coming from, you should not even be bumped to begin with.
Edit: FYI, I participated in 2 Burn Jita's and seen several JFs dodge CFC/Imperium gank fleets of about 200 or so pilots this way. So, no I'm not buying your "amateurs in NS" argument. Not without more confirmation.
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
621
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 08:08:17 -
[213] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Then it is your conjecture that there are more amateurs flying in Null than HS?
https://zkillboard.com/ship/20183/losses/
https://zkillboard.com/ship/28850/losses/
There are?
Quote:I'd argue it is the amateurs flying in HS that account for HS ganks.
Amateurs, pros - makes no difference as the mechanics by CCP in Hisec make it inevitable. INEVITABLE.
Quote:If you have an exit cyno then your JF should live. When you get that first bump, jump out to your exit cyno and dock.
Thank you for contributing as to why this topic is valid.
Quote:And depending on where you are coming from, you should not even be bumped to begin with.
Indeed. Broken mechanic is broken.
Zero cynos won't stay.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 08:15:04 -
[214] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Then it is your conjecture that there are more amateurs flying in Null than HS?
https://zkillboard.com/ship/20183/losses/
https://zkillboard.com/ship/28850/losses/
There are? Quote:I'd argue it is the amateurs flying in HS that account for HS ganks. Amateurs, pros - makes no difference as the mechanics by CCP in Hisec make it inevitable. INEVITABLE. Quote:If you have an exit cyno then your JF should live. When you get that first bump, jump out to your exit cyno and dock. Thank you for contributing as to why this topic is valid. Quote:And depending on where you are coming from, you should not even be bumped to begin with. Indeed. Broken mechanic is broken. Zero cynos won't stay.
What does that even prove? You link freighter kills? What? And what are you blathering on about inevitability and mechanics. If you are in a JF and you die in HS due to being [suicide] ganked...you are doing it wrong.
By the way, I think you win for the most incoherent and nonsensical post today.
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
621
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 08:16:00 -
[215] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:If you are in a JF and you die in HS due to being ganked...you are doing it wrong.
Precisely.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 08:20:58 -
[216] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:If you are in a JF and you die in HS due to being ganked...you are doing it wrong.
Precisely.
Okay........
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2930
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Posted - 2015.05.17 08:22:01 -
[217] - Quote
Still wondering what actual problem would be "fixed" by this change to how cynos work.
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
621
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 08:24:28 -
[218] - Quote
Risk being introduced into a 99.9% risk-less activity where rewards exceed the dangers by several orders of magnitude.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 08:36:45 -
[219] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Risk being introduced into a 99.9% risk-less activity where rewards exceed the dangers by several orders of magnitude.
Oh for God's sake. A completely un-substantiated number you've pulled out of your ass.
We have already established that quite a few JFs die every few days, and that about half or so of those die in LS/NS.
And this is a ship that has severely limited fitting capabilities and serves pretty much one function. So, people have minimized risk while flying this ship.
So again, what is the problem? Or if you think there is too little risk how about instead of making **** up you try to come up with something based on facts. And tell us why should more JFs die? And because is the reason of a three year old.
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
621
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 08:51:22 -
[220] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Oh for God's sake. A completely un-substantiated number you've pulled out of your ass.
Find me a JF kill with 250b in cargo, and you will have found a professional. Only that such a kill probably doesn't exist due to current broken mechanics.
Quote:We have already established that quite a few JFs die every few days
In Hisec.
Quote:and that about half or so of those die in LS/NS.
Amateurs.
Quote:And this is a ship that has severely limited fitting capabilities and serves pretty much one function.
So it is a freighter. Ohmygosh.
Quote:So, people have minimized risk while flying this ship.
To 0.01%.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
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2939
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Posted - 2015.05.17 08:53:39 -
[221] - Quote
Ok, so you are just going to make **** up and spout nonsense.
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
622
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 08:54:54 -
[222] - Quote
CCP knows how much is being moved risk-free.
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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1199
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 11:11:16 -
[223] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Ok, so you are just going to make **** up and spout nonsense.
They really are, it's remarkable bordering on trolling.
It's like a small child with their fingers in their ears going waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Numbers and by extension reality don't lie. They also outweigh ill informed opinions always and forever. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
630
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 11:27:40 -
[224] - Quote
afkalt wrote:
They really are, it's remarkable bordering on trolling.
It's like a small child with their fingers in their ears going waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Couldn't agree more.
Out of the undock with 350k+ m3 to the safety of another undock lightyears away and in 0.0/LS space at the click of a button - and they call it reasonable and balanced.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
16389
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 12:21:13 -
[225] - Quote
Let's make it so that freighters can't warp too or from closer than 10km or an npc station as well!
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
632
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 12:28:04 -
[226] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Let's make it so that freighters can't warp too or from closer than 10km or an npc station as well!
Supernaise trolling.
It's not like they are subject to risk everytime at the outbound gate of a new system, amrite?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2944
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Posted - 2015.05.17 16:43:20 -
[227] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:afkalt wrote:
They really are, it's remarkable bordering on trolling.
It's like a small child with their fingers in their ears going waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Couldn't agree more. Out of the undock with 350k+ m3 to the safety of another undock lightyears away and in 0.0/LS space at the click of a button - and they call it reasonable and balanced.
And yet they still die.
So we already know using a JF entails risk. Now, why should that be higher?
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
639
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 17:04:59 -
[228] - Quote
Some Titans were also dieing when AoE Doomsdays could be fired through cynos.
Likewise for SKYNET.
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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1200
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:15:53 -
[229] - Quote
If you're trying to equate freight with projecting offgrid applied DPS...I dont have words for the fail.
How many JF need to die before you concede they're actually not invulnerable? Basic math says >=1 and you're wrong, but seeing as you're not happy with SEVERAL HUNDRED losses over a 6 months....what's the number before they're not "invulnerable"? |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
643
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:27:03 -
[230] - Quote
The implied angle to that is a broken mechanic and absent risk.
That is all.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
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2944
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Posted - 2015.05.17 19:27:23 -
[231] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Some Titans were also dieing when AoE Doomsdays could be fired through cynos. Likewise for SKYNET.
There were clear problems there. So, not very good analogies. Just because drone assist ended up leading to a dominant strategy does not mean **** for JFs. Apples, oranges and all that kind of stuff.
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
643
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:29:46 -
[232] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Some Titans were also dieing when AoE Doomsdays could be fired through cynos. Likewise for SKYNET. There were clear problems there. So, not very good analogies. Just because drone assist ended up leading to a dominant strategy does not mean **** for JFs.
An exploit is an exploit is an exploit, though exploit is a heavy word, so lets call it a broken valid mechanic. Valid until it isn't.
Donuts do taste nice, though one can get fat and complacent as a result.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
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2944
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Posted - 2015.05.17 19:32:31 -
[233] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:The implied angle to that is a broken mechanic and absent risk.
That is all.
But JFs die. This is a fact. Thus to say there is no risk is simple false. You've been shown the facts, and so your insistence that there is no risk makes you a liar.
That's fine though, you keep undermining your own credibility here with your inability to put forward a cogent argument.
Seriously, if you could show an actual problem I'd be willing to read it, think about, Hell I'd even consider helping to look at data. But all you do is keep making the same statement over and over that is simply untrue as if mere repetition will make it true.
I goes like this, "I think that the risk JFs currently face is too low. It is too low because......"
The OP failed to do this. His main beef was, "I can't think of a way to kill them." But as we've seen plenty of JFs die, both in HS and LS/NS. People are clearly doing it, so he needs to also figure it out like they did...or maybe go get into their corp/alliance/group/whatever and learn from them.
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
643
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Posted - 2015.05.17 19:36:18 -
[234] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:The implied angle to that is a broken mechanic and absent risk.
That is all. But JFs die. This is a fact. Thus to say there is no risk is simple false. You've been shown the facts, and so your insistence that there is no risk makes you a liar.
I'm fine, thanks.
The percentage of losses in LS is laughable, on top of that, there is no data how many died at stations, some kills were at enemy control towers. Yes. A few were in systems with no stations at all.
Then you read some of the comments associated with them, and you get something like, "Was deploying a POS from his JF with neutrals in local", "Undocked his JF with a bubbled dread camp outside", and so forth.
Don't worry, CCP has all the exact data.
Keep thinking you'll be able to cyno into the new Citadels at 0 km.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2946
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:38:59 -
[235] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Some Titans were also dieing when AoE Doomsdays could be fired through cynos. Likewise for SKYNET. There were clear problems there. So, not very good analogies. Just because drone assist ended up leading to a dominant strategy does not mean **** for JFs. An exploit is an exploit is an exploit, though exploit is a heavy word, so lets call it a valid mechanic. Until it isn't. Donuts do taste nice, though one can get fat and complacent as a result.
You do understand you are using fallacious reasoning....right? If Bob is cheating that does mean Tom is. You point to mechanics that were later deemed either exploits or not the way the game was intended to be played. There are many, many other instances.
This is Iroquoiss logic:
1. Nano-speed HACs were considered to be OP and not good for the game.
2. Nano-HACs were nerfed.
3. Therefore, interceptors are bad for the game.
1 and 2 are true, but the leap from 2 to 3 is completely unsupported.
Here is another:
1. Drone assist is was not intended to lead to skynetting.
2. Drone assist is nerfed.
3. Therefore JF's have too little risk.
Again, 1 and 2 are true. But leaping from 2 to 3 is simply nonsense. There is no way to make even the slightest connection.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1201
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:43:53 -
[236] - Quote
Having tried to use logic, data and reasoning, I've now dropped to the level of the opposition. Thus allow me to retort with the same level of reasoning.
JF are not broken in the risk reward scheme. Because. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
643
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:45:44 -
[237] - Quote
Yes, data is indeed interesting.
For the last 7 years, or since record began on zKillboard, the JF count sums up to 3,954 freighters killed, or 1.54 per day with majority being in Hisec.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2946
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:45:49 -
[238] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:The implied angle to that is a broken mechanic and absent risk.
That is all. But JFs die. This is a fact. Thus to say there is no risk is simple false. You've been shown the facts, and so your insistence that there is no risk makes you a liar. I'm fine, thanks. The percentage of losses in LS is laughable, on top of that, there is no data how many died at stations, some kills were at enemy control towers. Yes. A few were in systems with no stations at all. Then you read some of the comments associated with them, and you get something like, " Was deploying a POS from his JF with neutrals in local", " Undocked his JF with a bubbled dread camp outside", and so forth. Don't worry, CCP has all the exact data. Keep thinking you'll be able to cyno into the new Citadels at 0 km.
You keep mixing apples and oranges.
Citadels, unlike stations and outposts, will have something very different, namely guns. And while this could be a change CCP implements there are other ways to nerf JFs AND also provide an increase in risk, but one that can still be managed. For example, limiting jump range would mean more jumps and mean more chances for something to go wrong at each jump.
And pointing to anecdotes is not very persuasive. Yes, undocking from a bubbled station with dreads outside is not good. Nor is using a JF to deploy a POS with or without neutrals in system (for the love of God use a blockade runner). So you have found a couple of foolish moves...out of several hundred. Yes, that clearly and totally proves your point.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2946
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:47:25 -
[239] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Yes, data is indeed interesting. For the last 7 years, or since record began on zKillboard, the JF count sums up to 3,954 freighters killed, or 1.54 per day with majority being in Hisec.
I claim you are lying on the Hi Sec part. We have already seen that LS/NS accounts for 50% of the Rhea kills in a little over the last 6 months. I do not believe you have done any analysis beyond that. You are once again making things up out of thin air.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
643
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:48:33 -
[240] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:The implied angle to that is a broken mechanic and absent risk.
That is all. But JFs die. This is a fact. Thus to say there is no risk is simple false. You've been shown the facts, and so your insistence that there is no risk makes you a liar. I'm fine, thanks. The percentage of losses in LS is laughable, on top of that, there is no data how many died at stations, some kills were at enemy control towers. Yes. A few were in systems with no stations at all. Then you read some of the comments associated with them, and you get something like, " Was deploying a POS from his JF with neutrals in local", " Undocked his JF with a bubbled dread camp outside", and so forth. Don't worry, CCP has all the exact data. Keep thinking you'll be able to cyno into the new Citadels at 0 km. You keep mixing apples and oranges. Citadels, unlike stations and outposts, will have something very different, namely guns. And while this could be a change CCP implements there are other ways to nerf JFs AND also provide an increase in risk, but one that can still be managed.
Precisely the point.
It's going to apply to all stations, however.
Teckos Pech wrote:
I claim you are lying on the Hi Sec part. We have already seen that LS/NS accounts for 50% of the Rhea kills in a little over the last 6 months. I do not believe you have done any analysis beyond that. You are once again making things up out of thin air.
Exact statistics and distribution for all of the four Jump Freighters is welcome.
We await eagerly.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2946
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:52:25 -
[241] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Having tried to use logic, data and reasoning, I've now dropped to the level of the opposition. Thus allow me to retort with the same level of reasoning.
JF are not broken in the risk reward scheme. Because.
Pretty much.
JF's are fine. Because I said so.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
643
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:55:00 -
[242] - Quote
Could be a 200-page thread soon, rival the ISBoxers in infamy!
Vested interests in a broken, risk-less and super-efficient mechanic going to be vested.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2946
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:57:32 -
[243] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Some Titans were also dieing when AoE Doomsdays could be fired through cynos. Likewise for SKYNET. There were clear problems there. So, not very good analogies. Just because drone assist ended up leading to a dominant strategy does not mean **** for JFs. An exploit is an exploit is an exploit, though exploit is a heavy word, so lets call it a broken valid mechanic. Valid until it isn't. Donuts do taste nice, though one can get fat and complacent as a result.
Actually, I lost weight eating bacon and donuts (40-45 pounds). Cycled ketogenic diets are awesome for losing weight and improving your health.
That is probably the most informative this thread has ever gotten.....
And JF's are fine because I said so.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
643
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:59:38 -
[244] - Quote
I'll edit this post later with total value of cargo lost for all JFs over these 7 years minus the cost of the hull.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
356
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 20:46:22 -
[245] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
The OP failed to do this. His main beef was, "I can't think of a way to kill them." But as we've seen plenty of JFs die, both in HS and LS/NS. People are clearly doing it, so he needs to also figure it out like they did...or maybe go get into their corp/alliance/group/whatever and learn from them.
Wow, a mind reader! I have goosebumps! |
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1202
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 21:55:48 -
[246] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:I'll edit this post later with total value of cargo lost for all JFs over these 7 years minus the cost of the hull.
You realise if it's more than 1 JF, your 'invulnerable' arguement is more leaky than the titanic, right? |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
645
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 18:35:48 -
[247] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:I'll edit this post later with total value of cargo lost for all JFs over these 7 years minus the cost of the hull.
As per zKillboard, a total of 1,418 Rhea Jump Freighters have been destroyed to this point, with 12.60 Tn lost in this particular case; It is 682 ships destroyed for the Ark, and 5.88 Tn in ISK value; 534 Nomads have become space dust, 4.63 Tn in ISK lost and finally Anshars have died 1,330 times since the records began in early 2008, and 12.53 Trillion in ISK value destroyed.
Total number of JF deaths: 3,964.
Total number of regular Freighters killed: 11,986.
Total ISK value destroyed in JF case: 35.64 Tn ISK.
Total ISK value lost by Freighters: 40.7 Trillion ISK.
The average JF hull price for the 2008-2015 period is around 5.7 bn ISK: 35.64 Tn - 5.7 bn * 3,964 = 13 Trillion ISK.
Freighters during the same time averaged around 1 bn ISK: 40.7 Tn - 1 bn * 11,986 = 28.74 Trillion ISK in cargo lost.
Prices taken from Eve-Markets.net for the time period.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1006
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 19:51:14 -
[248] - Quote
So we're all pretty much agreed that docking ring cynos are an old broken mechanic that doesn't fit in with the new improved eve. It's time for it to evolve into a proper mechanic that promotes team play and penalizes solo profiteering.
We also agree that there will be a need for some therapy channels for those who are having some difficulty coming to terms with eve evolving from a game of stagnant poo into something vibrant, dynamic and interesting. (I would recommend just using all the jump fatigue therapy channels everyone thought we would need, but were never used)
Let's get this over and done with so we can move on to the next improvement! These are exciting times indeed! |
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1210
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 20:58:42 -
[249] - Quote
You have a funny idea of 'all in agreement'
Read the post above yours and use that as a basis for how much loss is acceptable - keeping in mind it's apparently 'impossible' to lose a JF..... |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1007
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 21:21:14 -
[250] - Quote
Well, there will always be a small small (mostly 2 in this thread, but 4 or 5 total) group that are against game improvements.
I've survived and actually prosperred through the following Eve ending events:
Warp to zero (total game ender for commerce in eve)
Speed nerf (will end pvp in null)
Jump Fatigue (80% of null pilots will quit)
and now...
as with the above 'the sky is falling" there will always be a few folks trying to cling to the past as it vanishes in history. Don't be fooled by the tenacious (admirable in a sad sort of way) raging of 2 to 5 players. It's not like all of null, the industrial crowd, empire or any other groups are creating a massive threadnaught here. You have more fingers on your hands than there are guys proclaiming then end of the current null status quo, which will lead to the collapse of eves current great overlords, which will end SOV null, which will never recover (add a BOOOOM) random math facts and sketchy data, which will lead to.... to.... well they never quite get to the part after that, the one where eve players adapt and prosper as they always have. They keep leaving that out, but they know it's in there.
Take the 4 rabbid rabbits.... or was it a chicken that proclaimed the sky was falling... yes it was a little chicken... no.... it was chicken little.... anyway, take those 4 dudes out of the post and there is literally no negative feedback in this thread. 2 puffs of smoke and a pair of mirrors is NOTHING in this forum.
Don't confuse 4 tenacious dudes with the will of eve. If they can fool you with a bunch of repetative fluff, then you should meet me in Jita. I'll open a trade window with you and sell you a faction BS of your choosing for 100mil isk. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1007
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 21:31:52 -
[251] - Quote
afkalt wrote:You have a funny idea of 'all in agreement'
Read the post above yours and use that as a basis for how much loss is acceptable - keeping in mind it's apparently 'impossible' to lose a JF.....
This isn't about JF, balance sheets or the null economy. It's about fixing a poop mechanic that happens to effect JF (as you and the super hero have pointed out repeatedly).
I'll be honest with you. I want to kill cynoing dreads and carriers. I want them to call in support when I tackle them. I want to fight that support and make explosions.
Your whole premise that all of Eve will suddenly dogpile every freighter and smash them all into oblivion isn't glued down very well. Most of the pvp side of eve wants content. Big bulky loot pinatas aren't really content. They are boring kills. Your overdeveloped sense of self importance needs to sit down and take a rest. JF aren't THE ship that keeps Eve in existence. You guys are just cargo jockeys for the real game. That's it.
Get over yourself. |
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1216
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 06:51:27 -
[252] - Quote
Still waiting on an "acceptable" level of risk since tens of trillions lost over the years is "too safe" and that is JUST the JFs.
What level of risk do you need to help your sorry arse kill capitals?
Has the "they're invulnerable" line not been so thoroughly beaten to death, yet you still cling to it being "too safe".....so man up and tell us what level of risk you're crying for and why the existing, substantial losses are not enough and how it is that other people manage to kill these "invulnerable" ships.
Perhaps post some evidence instead of ranting and raving like a child told their brilliant plan is actually bad. |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
124
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 11:29:27 -
[253] - Quote
Hi,
it seems you guys who favor this idea haven't flown a capital at all, because otherwise you would know how stupid your idea is.
First of all it's nonsense not to split capitals into groups because it's the reason why especially JF pilots are against this idea. When flying a carrier you can avoid crowded areas. PVE usage is limited to quiet areas, otherwise you loose them even sooner than you already do. For this purpose you can and should avoid crowded systems. When doing PVP you always fly together with a supporting fleet which protects you.
JF on the other side are only designed to bring goods to places where people are. Telling a JF pilot to stick to quiet areas is like telling a storm chaser to avoid strong winds.
Conclusion: this idea is a direct hit to anyone who must go to crowded areas and can't avoid it because the instant docking mechanism is gone.
Now let's have a look at the defense mechanism. A carrier can be fitted and adapted to changing situations. I can add cap rechargers and warp core stabs for travelling, I can fit a cloak, a mwd which brings me to warp in 9 secs and last but not least I can defend myself in such a ship. Nothing similar can be done with a JF. Its only defense is to dock as fast as possible and rely on the buffer tank for any attack happening during this period.
Conclusion: changing this mechanism would remove the only defense a JF currently has, another reason why any JF pilot doesn't like this idea.
Talking about price:
A JF costs 2-3x more than a fitted carrier and 30x more than a fitted astero - you don't want to lose it.
The "free money with no risk" can only be considered as a joke. There is no calculation how safe it is to use such a ship. All your "facts" rely on some observations and zkillboard shows that this shiptype can and is attacked. What you also forget is that you don't earn money by moving stuff from station A to station B. You make money selling items. So if you hate people who make money without risk, why don't you bring up ideas to eliminate station trading instead of thinking about funny ideas which would make one ship class obsolete?
Last but not least: Considering this mechanism here as "broken" only shows you have no clue about game mechanisms. Every ship is invulnerable as long as don't make a mistake and use it in the wrong way. |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
124
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 12:24:13 -
[254] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I'll be honest with you. I want to kill cynoing dreads and carriers. I want them to call in support when I tackle them. I want to fight that support and make explosions.
Well then the reason why you support is not to balance/improve the game but because in the current situation you are not able to kill ships in a place where you want to do it.
What you don't understand is that carriers don't require stations. You can live out of them doing PVE for months without docking (tried it, it works). Second you don't take balance into account. While capitals can cyno&dock (which is a plus) they have the disadvantage that they have to announce themselves before doing it by giving anyone a warpable object at the point where they will appear.
Other ship types have the disadvantage of having to use gates but the advantage of being able to do this without telling you where they are. And as soon as these ships have entered warp and land on grid of the station you also can't attack them before they dock. The result is the same, no matter if cyno or warping to a station. All ships can dock immediately if they jump into the docking range of a station.
So if you want a balanced mechanism which gives disadvantages to everyone while keeping cynos you have to forbid cynos in a range 15km around the docking range of a station and also to force any other ship to land 15km outside the docking range of a station when warping to it. |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
357
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 15:08:31 -
[255] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:Hi,
it seems you guys who favor this idea haven't flown a capital at all, because otherwise you would know how stupid your idea is.
First of all it's nonsense not to split capitals into groups because it's the reason why especially JF pilots are against this idea. When flying a carrier you can avoid crowded areas. PVE usage is limited to quiet areas, otherwise you loose them even sooner than you already do. For this purpose you can and should avoid crowded systems. When doing PVP you always fly together with a supporting fleet which protects you.
JF on the other side are only designed to bring goods to places where people are. Telling a JF pilot to stick to quiet areas is like telling a storm chaser to avoid strong winds.
Conclusion: this idea is a direct hit to anyone who must go to crowded areas and can't avoid it because the instant docking mechanism is gone.
Now let's have a look at the defense mechanism. A carrier can be fitted and adapted to changing situations. I can add cap rechargers and warp core stabs for travelling, I can fit a cloak, a mwd which brings me to warp in 9 secs and last but not least I can defend myself in such a ship. Nothing similar can be done with a JF. Its only defense is to dock as fast as possible and rely on the buffer tank for any attack happening during this period.
Conclusion: changing this mechanism would remove the only defense a JF currently has, another reason why any JF pilot doesn't like this idea.
Talking about price:
A JF costs 2-3x more than a fitted carrier and 30x more than a fitted astero - you don't want to lose it.
The "free money with no risk" can only be considered as a joke. There is no calculation how safe it is to use such a ship. All your "facts" rely on some observations and zkillboard shows that this shiptype can and is attacked. What you also forget is that you don't earn money by moving stuff from station A to station B. You make money selling items. So if you hate people who make money without risk, why don't you bring up ideas to eliminate station trading instead of thinking about funny ideas which would make one ship class obsolete?
Last but not least: Considering this mechanism here as "broken" only shows you have no clue about game mechanisms. Every ship is invulnerable as long as you don't make a mistake and use it in the wrong way.
These complaints sound like opportunities for corp and alliance members to work together doing something more than gate camps or offensive roams to me. What if you flood a system with combat ships before you jump a freighter in? What if your teammates create some sort of distraction in system? What if you jump into an adjacent system and offload cargo into bloackade runners, DSTs, or just T-1 cargo ships? Coordination and cooperation! |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
357
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 15:10:06 -
[256] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:
I'll be honest with you. I want to kill cynoing dreads and carriers. I want them to call in support when I tackle them. I want to fight that support and make explosions.
Well then the reason why you support is not to balance/improve the game but because in the current situation you are not able to kill ships in a place where you want to do it. What you don't understand is that carriers don't require stations. You can live out of them doing PVE for months without docking (tried it, it works). Second you don't take balance into account. While capitals can cyno&dock (which is a plus) they have the disadvantage that they have to announce themselves before doing it by giving anyone a warpable object at the point where they will appear. Other ship types have the disadvantage of having to use gates but the advantage of being able to do this without telling you where they are and as soon as these ships have entered warp and land on grid of the station you also can't attack them before they dock. The final result is the same. No matter if cynoing or warping to a station, all ships can dock immediately if they jump into the docking range of a station. This is a balanced situation. If you want a balanced change in this mechanism which gives disadvantages to everyone and you want to keep cynos in the same way like they are you need to force all ship types of being exposed while moving to a station. If you forbid cynos in a range 15km around the docking range of a station while still forcing them to announce where they jump in then you have to force any other ship type to land 15km outside the docking range of a station when warping to it. In such a case you have kept the balance. You can shoot capitals at the cyno and any other ship around a station - that's balanced. Now what I doubt is that anyone would like this idea because suddenly not only the ones you want to use as targets become more vulnerable but anyone else, too.
Once your JF is on grid it can warp inside the docking ring of a station just like my ships can as long as you are 150km away. I can't dock before I am on grid either. |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
126
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 15:50:20 -
[257] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:
Once your JF is on grid it can warp inside the docking ring of a station just like my ships can as long as you are 150km away. I can't dock before I am on grid either.
Let me repeat it for the ones who are a bit slower in understanding things.
The advantage of being able to appear wherever they want (cynos and capitals) is countered by the disadvantage that the entry point must be launched before they jump and this point is visible and warpable to everyone. Other ships now have the disadvantage to use gates when entering a system but the advantage of not announcing their entry point.
-> So this is in balance.
All ship types now share the same feature of being able to immediately dock into a station when they reach the docking range, no matter if entering this range by using a cyno or by warping to the station from a location in the system. Both methods to dock are bullet proof, you can't be killed as long as you don't make a stupid error doing this.
-> Also in balance
If you now want to introduce something which changes this mechanism for one class (cynos/capitals) then you have to do the same for the rest - to keep the balance.
Your idea to forbid cynos around stations forces capital pilots to run through an additional flight phase during which they have to expose their ships to enemy fire. It's only fair to use a similar same approach then for any other ship type and also add some risks here.
One idea would be to force them to slow boat 15km until they reach the docking range of the station. Another idea would be to for them to slow boat 15km until they reach a jump gate and another one to drop the initial cloak so they can be warp scrambled immediately. All ideas offer an attacker an additional time frame to find and kill them, and that's the idea you have introduced here for capitals.
So choose whatever you want but don't try to change a balanced mechanism into an unbalanced one just because you would like to kill a specific ship type and in the current situation you are only too dumb to do what others can do: shoot them. |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa
Stark Enterprises
2956
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 16:00:31 -
[258] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:afkalt wrote:You have a funny idea of 'all in agreement'
Read the post above yours and use that as a basis for how much loss is acceptable - keeping in mind it's apparently 'impossible' to lose a JF..... This isn't about JF, balance sheets or the null economy. It's about fixing a poop mechanic that happens to effect JF (as you and the super hero have pointed out repeatedly). I'll be honest with you. I want to kill cynoing dreads and carriers. I want them to call in support when I tackle them. I want to fight that support and make explosions. Your whole premise that all of Eve will suddenly dogpile every freighter and smash them all into oblivion isn't glued down very well. Most of the pvp side of eve wants content. Big bulky loot pinatas aren't really content. They are boring kills. Your overdeveloped sense of self importance needs to sit down and take a rest. JF aren't THE ship that keeps Eve in existence. You guys are just cargo jockeys for the real game. That's it. Get over yourself.
Game improvement:
Allow capitals to jump without cynos, use cynos for jump bridges only.
Result:
Watch people like you (And by that I'm referring to pro-frigate hobos who have a self inflated sense of importance) fail to get over yourself with forum tears.
As far as this topic goes... -10.
Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
|
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
244
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 17:11:49 -
[259] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:
1. When doing PVP you always fly together with a supporting fleet which protects you.
JF on the other side are only designed to bring goods to places where people are.
2. Telling a JF pilot to stick to quiet areas is like telling a storm chaser to avoid strong winds.
3. A carrier can be fitted and adapted to changing situations . . . Nothing similar can be done with a JF. Its only defense is to dock as fast as possible
4. A JF costs 2-3x more than a fitted carrier and 30x more than a fitted astero - you don't want to lose it.
5. The "free money with no risk" can only be considered as a joke. There is no calculation how safe it is to use such a ship. All your "facts" rely on some observations and zkillboard shows that this shiptype can and is attacked.
6. Every ship is invulnerable as long as you don't make a mistake and use it in the wrong way.
7. Other ship types have the disadvantage of having to use gates but the advantage of being able to do this without telling you where they are and as soon as these ships have entered warp and land on grid of the station you also can't attack them before they dock.
8. all ships can dock immediately if they jump into the docking range of a station. This is a balanced situation.
9. If you forbid cynos in a range 15km around the docking range of a station while still forcing them to announce where they jump in then you have to force any other ship type to land 15km outside the docking range of a station when warping to it.
1. When you haul billions in goods around from one regional market to another or millions of m3's around from source to the point where it is utilized, you are doing PVP. I would call it market PVP or even economic PVP, but that belittles it. What you are really doing is sustatining a war effort. A titan can't normally do its job without a support fleet. Should a jump freighter, doing the economic equivalent of doomsdaying an enemy, be able to operate without a support fleet?
2. Storm chasers sometimes get killed by the wind . . . and the wind isn't even TRYING to kill them. And, if they don't get killed by the wind, it's probably because they are smart enough not to dive head first into the storm. Can you guess what would happen if they drove into the middle of a tornado? Probably the same thing that should happen to your jump freighter if you cyno'ed into a hostile system without support.
3. A carrier is meant to operate in space. It doesn't do anything while docked. And, even being adaptable, they still die just doing what they were intended to do, without even having to make any sort of mistake or suffer some misfortune. A hostile player or group can just kill it while it is trying to do its job.
4. Nobody wants to lose a ship. What does that have to do with being invulnerable during the normal use of your ship?
5. Nothing is perfectly safe so long as people are involved. People can die riding their skateboard down the street. Air travel is the safest manner of traveling, statistically, yet even airliners crash sometimes. It's not evidence that skateboarding or flying on a commercial jet are dangerous. It is only evidence that people are dangerous, even to themselves. I'm sure that someone at some time has accidentally one of his own clones by clone jumping. That doesn't mean clone jumping has an "acceptable" level of risk.
6. Should any ship be invulnerable during normal and effective use? Recall the sentry drone/POS shield exploit where drone boats were making use of their drones from behind POS shields. CCP was threatening to BAN people. But your big, slow, speshul fairy boat gets to be invulnerable while you relentlessly reinforce the blue donut? **** that.
7. Are you kidding? The gate is a warpable celestial that is on at least one of peoples overview tabs, generally. There are rarely more than 3 or 4 gates in a system (versus how many stations), and traffic usually flows predictably. Couple that with the fact that you spawn 12 km from the inbound gate and, yeah, lots of people die to gate camps. If you think it's such a balanced mechanic, then why don't you use it instead of cynoing your jump freighter around?
As for being invulnerable by warping to 0km . . . warping to 0km could land you up to 2.5km away from your intended position. And, do you know what can happen in that last 2.5km before you reach the station?
8. Only ships with jump drives (or ships using jump portals) can "jump into the docking range of a station". Do you support the idea of putting gates and stations right next to eachother? If not, then your point is moot.
9. Jump gates are on most peoples' overview. Cynos are not, especially before and after the cynoing ship did his job (i.e. when there is no cyno lit). If you have a problem with warping to 0km, that's probably an issue for a separate thread. Whatever your suggestion, I just hope it applies to all ships and players equally. |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa
Stark Enterprises
2956
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 19:15:10 -
[260] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:1. When you haul billions in goods around from one regional market to another or millions of m3's around from source to the point where it is utilized, you are doing PVP. I would call it market PVP or even economic PVP, but that belittles it. What you are really doing is sustatining a war effort. A titan can't normally do its job without a support fleet. Should a jump freighter, doing the economic equivalent of doomsdaying an enemy, be able to operate without a support fleet? 2. Storm chasers sometimes get killed by the wind . . . and the wind isn't even TRYING to kill them. And, if they don't get killed by the wind, it's probably because they are smart enough not to dive head first into the storm. Can you guess what would happen if they drove into the middle of a tornado? Probably the same thing that should happen to your jump freighter if you cyno'ed into a hostile system without support. 3. A carrier is meant to operate in space. It doesn't do anything while docked. And, even being adaptable, they still die just doing what they were intended to do, without even having to make any sort of mistake or suffer some misfortune. A hostile player or group can just kill it while it is trying to do its job. 4. Nobody wants to lose a ship. What does that have to do with being invulnerable during the normal use of your ship? 5. Nothing is perfectly safe so long as people are involved. People can die riding their skateboard down the street. Air travel is the safest manner of traveling, statistically, yet even airliners crash sometimes. It's not evidence that skateboarding or flying on a commercial jet are dangerous. It is only evidence that people are dangerous, even to themselves. I'm sure that someone at some time has accidentally one of his own clones by clone jumping. That doesn't mean clone jumping has an "acceptable" level of risk. 6. Should any ship be invulnerable during normal and effective use? Recall the sentry drone/POS shield exploit where drone boats were making use of their drones from behind POS shields. CCP was threatening to BAN people. But your big, slow, speshul fairy boat gets to be invulnerable while you relentlessly reinforce the blue donut? **** that. 7. Are you kidding? The gate is a warpable celestial that is on at least one of peoples overview tabs, generally. There are rarely more than 3 or 4 gates in a system (versus how many stations), and traffic usually flows predictably. Couple that with the fact that you spawn 12 km from the inbound gate and, yeah, lots of people die to gate camps. If you think it's such a balanced mechanic, then why don't you use it instead of cynoing your jump freighter around? As for being invulnerable by warping to 0km . . . warping to 0km could land you up to 2.5km away from your intended position. And, do you know what can happen in that last 2.5km before you reach the station? 8. Only ships with jump drives (or ships using jump portals) can "jump into the docking range of a station". Do you support the idea of putting gates and stations right next to eachother? If not, then your point is moot. 9. Jump gates are on most peoples' overview. Cynos are not, especially before and after the cynoing ship did his job (i.e. when there is no cyno lit). If you have a problem with warping to 0km, that's probably an issue for a separate thread. Whatever your suggestion, I just hope it applies to all ships and players equally.
1. Your definition of PvP should be pew pew. Not ching ching.
2. Storm chasers have their vehicles and their allowed to freely drive anywhere they chose. You're advocating that capital ships get nailed to an open field with a "Please mr tornado, strike here" sign on their necks. Poor analogy make point mute much?
3. Comparing the tactical battle value of a carrier to a JF is like comparing an Autobot Spartan armor clad Tiger to an aborted fetus.
4. I'm hearing you moaning because your incapable of taking down capitals if their on a station..... Your game style seems to fail here.
5. JFs die plenty, as is. You just fail at PvP more.
6. See point about your uselessness killing stuff on stations.
7. Caps can use gates now, like sub caps. But we have jump drives, meaning we don't need to use gates and can go places in space you don't spawn in. Deal with it. You mad bro? Get a carrier and provide this 10km from station content to others. See how you feel about it after a few of those.
8. All sub caps can dock immediately if they log into the docking range of a station, or get bridged into a station docking range, or worse, while pewing in docking range and letting the timer run out before they get ganked... normal use invul much?
9. Your overview is a personal problem, not something CCP has to fix when its on there by default..... Again, see point where your game style fails.
Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
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Hellen Killer
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 19:49:42 -
[261] - Quote
There is no way this is exploitable.
This would be great for industrialists in null and low sec, when the prices of everything go to hell because null and low sec freights are getting sacked on the regular. I mean seriously, once people just start bumping and interdicting capitals when they come in at 10k that should help with raising the prices of minerals and other goods destroyed en masse by pirates and every other type of opportunist looking for tears and gear. Dude, I mean, think of it, people will have one hell of a time supplying null sec and that should destroy countless jobs and opportunities, it would be great!
This cant possibly have unforeseen consequences. Because an idea that should have been thought out long ago being implemented this late in the game always has good feedback and works out just fine. Its not like empires rely on the mechanic or anything. No one needs to have their freighters actually be able to come in at a reasonable distance to safety, its just cheating.
On top of that, everyone will still buy jump freighters despite being a big flying piece of bankruptcy waiting to happen.
Not to mention it isent exclusionary at all, it shouldn't have any effect on small corperations trying to expand or move out to null, they have unlimited armed guards to protect their 7 bil isk freights, who needs cynos anyway? Its not like they are that important. And besides, it wont stunt any competition and it definitely wont prevent people from moving into the power vacuum or continuing out into null sec, if anything, it opens it wide and welcomes players.
Just do it already, Cynos and using this game mechanic is care bear crap anyway. It makes sense in the lore at least and no one cares if null and low get supplied as is, just let them sort it out amongst themselves. Personally, I cant wait for this update, its been long over due and has been broken for a long time.
Its going to go over just fine, I promise. Once its implemented you wont see much change to anything and everybody will love it as much as Phoebe, probably much more!
We should do this as soon as possible, players wont mind. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2958
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 20:12:44 -
[262] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I'll be honest with you. I want to kill cynoing dreads and carriers. I want them to call in support when I tackle them. I want to fight that support and make explosions.
So you want easier killmails.
Wow, what a stellar reason.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1013
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 21:07:31 -
[263] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:
I'll be honest with you. I want to kill cynoing dreads and carriers. I want them to call in support when I tackle them. I want to fight that support and make explosions.
So you want easier killmails. Wow, what a stellar reason.
Did you not see the part where I want them to call in support and that I want to fight that support?
I routinely go into every part of null (wh gal) and have no issues fighting in your null home systems. I bring 5-7 into your systems of 20+. I don't want easy kills - I want explosions. Stop blaming me for the average null bear being bad at pvp.
My true hope is that some of these station humping numpties get out of their precious dock ring and see how awesomely fun this game actually is. If Eve were mine to code and design.... deagressing (to jump, dock or whatever) wouldn't even be a thing. Once you engage on a gate or station you're all in. No docky and no jumpy one you choose to engage.
TL/DR - If I only went for easy killmails my kb stats would be at 99% awesomeness. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2959
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 21:15:11 -
[264] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:
I'll be honest with you. I want to kill cynoing dreads and carriers. I want them to call in support when I tackle them. I want to fight that support and make explosions.
So you want easier killmails. Wow, what a stellar reason. Did you not see the part where I want them to call in support and that I want to fight that support? I routinely go into every part of null (wh gal) and have no issues fighting in your null home systems. I bring 5-7 into your systems of 20+. I don't want easy kills - I want explosions. Stop blaming me for the average null bear being bad at pvp. My true hope is that some of these station humping numpties get out of their precious dock ring and see how awesomely fun this game actually is. If Eve were mine to code and design.... deagressing (to jump, dock or whatever) wouldn't even be a thing. Once you engage on a gate or station you're all in. No docky and no jumpy one you choose to engage. TL/DR - If I only went for easy killmails my kb stats would be at 99% awesomeness.
Bottom line is you want it to be easier.
Not a very impressive reason. Something not being easy does not imply a broken mechanic.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
130
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 07:45:04 -
[265] - Quote
I can only repeat: "Any ship is invulnerable as long as you don't make a mistake".
Let's use this little gem as prove of the concept:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
As for being invulnerable by warping to 0km . . . warping to 0km could land you up to 2.5km away from your intended position. And, do you know what can happen in that last 2.5km before you reach the station?
The game mechanism:
A station is built up out of three pieces. The center which is marked with a square. You can see it when you are on grid of the station. Then we have the structure, the building itself, and last but not least an invisible sphere with the square as center. The size of the sphere is depending on the station type, we have 29 different types in game (plus 3 outposts) with different ranges. Only if you land with you ship inside this sphere you are in docking range and can dock immediately.
When you choose the square as target and warp to it or click "approach", then you won't land in the center where the visible sqaure is but your ship moves to the edge of the sphere. If you warp to the square representing the station you actually land 2500m away from the edge of docking range sphere in a random direction. This is wanted because otherwise you would warp to the center, land 2500m away from it and by doing this land in the structure. You would bump and land far outside the station
The error:
The poor pilot I have quoted doesn't understand this game mechanism. He thinks the game is broken and wants this to be fixed.
The solution:
Instead of crying for help make a bookmark which is at least 2500m away from the edge of the docking range sphere towards the station but still more than 5000m away from any kind of structures of the station. Then warp to the bm instead of the station square and you will instadock 100% of the time because you will always land within the docking range.
So all you need to "fix" this is to know how to make bookmarks.
More explanation:
The additional space between bm and structure is required because the ship also is built up with an invisible sphere around it. The size is depending on the ship type and the 2500m extra space I have added here are required so the sphere of the ship doesn't hit by accident the edge of the station structure and bumps off even when using a bigger ship like orca or rorq.
Last words:
The point with sphere around the ship and the required additional space is also unknown to a lot of capital pilots and even in the cyno docking guide you can find pictures which show that the author doesn't know this concept. So if you find a cyno less than 7700m away from the next structure you only have to wait until the cap pilot will bump off the wall while jumping in and then you can kill him.
As I said: "Any ship is invulnerable as long as you don't make a mistake". |
Lakotnik
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
14
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 10:44:31 -
[266] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:I don't want easy kills - I want explosions. Stop blaming me for the average null bear being bad at pvp.
Your killboards speak otherwise. Seems to me you're preying on people flying solo with your group of nitwits. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1016
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 15:21:06 -
[267] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:
I'll be honest with you. I want to kill cynoing dreads and carriers. I want them to call in support when I tackle them. I want to fight that support and make explosions.
So you want easier killmails. Wow, what a stellar reason. Did you not see the part where I want them to call in support and that I want to fight that support? I routinely go into every part of null (wh gal) and have no issues fighting in your null home systems. I bring 5-7 into your systems of 20+. I don't want easy kills - I want explosions. Stop blaming me for the average null bear being bad at pvp. My true hope is that some of these station humping numpties get out of their precious dock ring and see how awesomely fun this game actually is. If Eve were mine to code and design.... deagressing (to jump, dock or whatever) wouldn't even be a thing. Once you engage on a gate or station you're all in. No docky and no jumpy one you choose to engage. TL/DR - If I only went for easy killmails my kb stats would be at 99% awesomeness. Bottom line is you want it to be easier. Not a very impressive reason. Something not being easy does not imply a broken mechanic.
I'll bottom line this for you. I've been in wh space pretty much from the beginning. It's eve on hard mode. I want to go somewhere I scan a route to it. You.... You are a null bear. You need SRP, you need non destructable stations, you need asset protection. You probably fly ishtars. SO.... You telling me that I want easy is just laughable. You calling me out for wanting easy while defending the need for on station cynos is hypocritacal.
Look at the reality of how we each play eve. If I ever want easy... I'll put an application in to Executive Outcomes.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1016
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 15:23:43 -
[268] - Quote
Lakotnik wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:I don't want easy kills - I want explosions. Stop blaming me for the average null bear being bad at pvp. Your killboards speak otherwise. Seems to me you're preying on people flying solo with your group of nitwits.
Everybody runs when we land on grid. Don't you dare blame me for everyone warping away, docking and waiting me out. You need to look inward to solve my kb issues. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
658
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 15:37:56 -
[269] - Quote
afkalt wrote:You have a funny idea of 'all in agreement'
Read the post above yours and use that as a basis for how much loss is acceptable - keeping in mind it's apparently 'impossible' to lose a JF.....
Considering anywhere from 50bn to 250bn & more in cargo is moved at a time in one JF from invulnerability to invul - the current mechanics are broken and need to be fixed. You don't see pros on the killboard, because it is that safe.
Risk/reward etc etc
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1227
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 15:57:52 -
[270] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:afkalt wrote:You have a funny idea of 'all in agreement'
Read the post above yours and use that as a basis for how much loss is acceptable - keeping in mind it's apparently 'impossible' to lose a JF..... Considering anywhere from 50bn to 250bn & more in cargo is moved at a time in one JF from invulnerability to invul - the current mechanics are broken and need to be fixed. You don't see pros on the killboard, because it is that safe. Risk/reward etc etc
"Invulnerable."
You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
658
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 16:40:46 -
[271] - Quote
Find me a NS/LS JF kill with at least 50b in cargo.
Until then, the donut keeps on rolling, EVE keeps on hitting new activity lows.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
DARKNESS.
60
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 19:17:11 -
[272] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Considering anywhere from 50bn to 250bn & more in cargo is moved at a time in one JF from invulnerability to invul - the current mechanics are broken and need to be fixed. You don't see pros on the killboard, because it is that safe. Risk/reward etc etc
Uhh... where did you pull those numbers from? Please go find us a km so we can all join in on the ridicule.
And Serendipity, get over yourself and your WHs. Every area of space has it's benefits and drawbacks. WH space has their single system to defend, which they always have their assets ready to defend in place long before an attacker moves in to try and oust them. Null space is always open and controls multiple systems. You can defeat/force out an enemies capital fleet in one brawl and within a short time they can return with twice the numbers.
WH can lock down their system, null, low, and I'll even include empire on this, cannot. Every other area of space within eve is vulnerable to attack 24/7. A cyno can be lit in a null player's quiet pocket and he can quickly find himself dog piled by 50 bombers because a single player with a cyno entered his system. These are threats you may have forgotten about in your time in a WH, but threats that must remain on everyone's mind who resides here.
Null and LS rely on goods being moved to and from HS via JF because of the randomness of WHs appearing in our space make them an unreliable form of transportation, and gate travel through many systems can only be defined as suicide - not risk. A WH residence can roll holes until they get a connection they desire because mechanics require them to respawn after time, it requires a lot of patience and planning, but the travel is safe none-the-less once you get your near-direct hole.
Null and LS get their goods to the HS border by hopping station rings. Any mistake along this path can lead to the loss of everything. Where as when rolling holes only risks an orca or a few BS or w/e is used anymore, it's been a while I'll admit. So please understand, a WH player telling null players about risking assets to move their goods across the eve universe to the desired trade hub is quite seriously a joke and needs to stop. |
Enya Sparhawk
Black Tea and Talons
55
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 19:34:49 -
[273] - Quote
Nasar Vyron wrote:The idea of escorting a freighter through HS is in itself a joke.
The attacker must make the first move before you can defend yourself or concord will simply target you as the aggressor, you cannot take preventative actions by wiping out the obvious camp or bumping mach before they create the problem. Bring a webbing ship? Pray they don't realize this and blap it before you can get your webs off. Bring logi? They'll kill your logi then turn their attention to you. Bring more logi? They have a bowhead/orca/corp hanger full of ships to kill off anything you brought and all the time in the world.
Your only hope of survival is a vigilant scout with a full watchlist and a LS cyno. Nerf cynoing on stations and watch HS industry burn.
Would make for some interesting gameplay if you could create some sort of fleet assist modules for this type of 'escort' gameplay...(You have them for mining, why not trade and commerce)
Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne
Déan gáire...Tiocfaidh ár lá
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2963
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 19:49:24 -
[274] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Find me a NS/LS JF kill with at least 50b in cargo.
Until then, the donut keeps on rolling, EVE keeps on hitting new activity lows.
Uhmmm you were the one making that claim...so you should provide the evidence.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
662
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 19:51:43 -
[275] - Quote
Nasar Vyron wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Considering anywhere from 50bn to 250bn & more in cargo is moved at a time in one JF from invulnerability to invul - the current mechanics are broken and need to be fixed. You don't see pros on the killboard, because it is that safe. Risk/reward etc etc Uhh... where did you pull those numbers from? Please go find us a km so we can all join in on the ridicule.
You don't happen to have a mere 568k units of Dysprosium to relocate to Jita, which is the total production from only 7.8 moons?
You may not be a professional. I'm sorry.
To wit:
12.65 Tn ISK-value destroyed in 1,425 Rhea JFs, or 8.8 billion ISK per kill.
14.85 Tn ISK-value destroyed in 4,201 Charon freighters, 3.53 billion ISK per kill.
People buy JFs to fly empty; Hisec is safe; Nullsec is dangerous with zero cynos from station-to-station.
You see, that's the point - go find such a killmail and try again.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
DARKNESS.
61
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 22:21:26 -
[276] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Nasar Vyron wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Considering anywhere from 50bn to 250bn & more in cargo is moved at a time in one JF from invulnerability to invul - the current mechanics are broken and need to be fixed. You don't see pros on the killboard, because it is that safe. Risk/reward etc etc Uhh... where did you pull those numbers from? Please go find us a km so we can all join in on the ridicule. You don't happen to have a mere 568k units of Dysprosium to relocate to Jita, which is the total monthly production from only 7.8 moons? You may not be a professional. I'm sorry. To wit: 12.65 Tn ISK-value destroyed in 1,425 Rhea JFs, or 8.8 billion ISK per kill. 14.85 Tn ISK-value destroyed in 4,201 Charon freighters, 3.53 billion ISK per kill. People buy JFs to fly empty; Hisec is safe for freighters; < LS is dangerous with zero cynos from shining-station-to-shining-station.
Maybe I haven't made myself clear by now. I AM one of those people who handle such assets. I am telling you even when loaded down I do not move that much at a time. I am patient, and anyone who does move alliance assets are patient. We have limits on what we are willing to move at a time as to avoid putting all our eggs in one basket if you will. When I get anywhere near what I feel uneasy moving I have a webber, backup webber, and an exit cyno on standby.
Multitudes of precautions are taken even when moving an empty, out of alliance JFs through HS. Those that don't find themselves dead, those that do can even find themselves in some pretty hair raising situations. Such as just last week, was pointed damn near infinitely in HS, I wont say where for obvious reasons. They made a mistake and didn't repoint as their third of fourth tackle died to concord and I was able to spam jump and get out.
I am telling you, there is no sane JF pilot that will carry anywhere near 250 bill in cargo, let alone not being very careful about moving it. Unless of course you're talking about bugged BPCs that show up on kms as BPOs, in which case they still weren't actually carrying that value of cargo. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2457
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 06:42:21 -
[277] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:The Eve economy pretty much depends on Freighters and Jump Freighters being 99.9% safe. Do you want everything in the game to cost 10x as much? If you make these ships killable, that's exactly what will happen.
I think everything would be fixed by making all resources more available the further you move away from the galactic center, and also by making industry and trade just as easy if not easier out there, all while not having NPCs to soak up tax ISK on player-to-player transactions. The end result would be that supply chains could be smaller and not intersect with highsec; it would be cost-effective to guard shipments with large gangs; and the value of highsec goods and commerce would plummet, dramatically reducing the need for nullsec to rely on highsec. Players could and would continue to perform commerce in the safety of highsec, but the danger of nullsec trade would come with reasonable rewards.
If the above happened, it would be okay to prevent cynos from being lit within 10km of station docking rings.
A Caldari is just a Gallente who begged to have their civil liberties taken away.
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