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Kittamaru
Northstar Cabal Important Internet Spaceship League
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 18:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, lets take a look at Frigates, shall we?
We have:
Combat (Assault Frigates, Stealth bombers) E-War (Electronic Attack Frigates) Tackle (Interceptors) Exploration (Covert Ops) OMGWTFBBQSPLOSION (Stealth bombers) Other (T1 frigs)
What we are missing is logistics capacity in a frigate... now, is this really needed...? Perhaps, perhaps not. I know I, personally, find super-fast wolfpacks to be hella fun (half dozen AF's with a few EAF's = fun times had by all while out hunting solo targets). Adding a logistics vessel into the mix would extend the duration at which these fleets could remain out on the prowl.
Gallente: Based on the Navitas hull Gal Frig skill bonus: 5% Bonus to cargo capacity and 5% reduction to signature radius per level. Logistics Skill Bonus: 150% bonus to Remote Armor Repair system and Tracking link range and 15% reduction to Remote Armor Repair System capacitor use per level
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to remote armor repair amount
Structure Structure HP: 750 Max Velocity: 350 m/s Inertia Modifier: 3.6 Mass: 1.22 million KG Volume: 11kms Cargo: 200 m3
Armor Armor HP: 521 HP EM Resist: 50% Exp. Resist: 10% Kin. Resist: 83.75% Therm. Resist: 67.5%
Shield Shield HP: 320 HP EM Resist: 0% Exp. Resist: 50% Kin. Resist: 85% Therm. Resist: 60% Shield recharge time: 675,000 seconds
Fitting PG: 45 MW CPU: 155 tf High slots: 4 Medium Slots: 3 Low Slots: 4 Launcher Hardpoints: 0 Turret Hardpoints: 2 Calibration: 400 points Upgrade Hardpoints: 2
Drones Drone Capacity: 10 m3 Drone Bandwidth: 10 Mbit/sec
Capacitor Recharge Time: 195,500 seconds Capacity: 375 GJ
Targeting Maximum Range: 54 km Max Targets: 6 Magnetometric Strength: 11 Signature Radius: 37 m Scan Resolution: 950mm
The idea is to place it somewhere between an AF and an Interceptor in speed and durability - quick and agile enough to duck in and out of combat with the ability to shrug off one or two hits. The cargo space allows it to carry a little spare ammunition for the frigate fleets it will be supporting. It utilizes bonuses different from its bigger brother, the Oneiros, to provide quick repair ability at the expense of longevity - able to pump out large amounts of armor in a short time at the risk of quickly draining its capacitor, leaving it unable to evade enemy fire. With only two turret hardpoints and no damage bonus it isn't much of a threat while it's limited defenses ensure it must get out of the way before being destroyed.
Obviously, other races ships would be optimized for their patterns.
So, what do you guys think? I'm sure some tweaking is needed... but eh, figured it was a start. |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
200
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Posted - 2011.12.05 19:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Finally, a use for the small DED shield/armor RR modules that are laying around ... oh, wait, they're still worse than the T2 ones.
I still like the idea of logi frigates. I don't know exactly how used they would be, but it does sound quite fun to fly. |
Kittamaru
Northstar Cabal Important Internet Spaceship League
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 19:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
How well used they are depends on how often wolfpacks of small ships are used - part of the idea is that, logi frigates would be cheaper than full sized logi's, as well as faster and easier to fly. This makes them perfect for the training of new wolfpacks (or for flying frigate/dessie wolfpacks) and a great stepping stone to cruiser sized warfare (HAC's, HIC's, and Logis w/ BC's) |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
127
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Posted - 2011.12.05 19:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
Would be a good way of letting new pilots learn if they want to fly logistics without having to train Cruiser V/Logi V Best idea though would be giving T1 logi actually good bonuses. |
Kittamaru
Northstar Cabal Important Internet Spaceship League
0
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Posted - 2011.12.06 05:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Exactly. Honestly, I don't see a reason NOT to implement something like this - in large-scale ops they wouldn't add enough remote rep to really make a huge difference, but used well in small gangs they can be a godsend. Additionally, they could even be used in a quick-deployment scenario (say an important gang or a jump freighter or a carrier or what not) gets jumped by a handful of baddies - one or two guys could hop in one of these and zip there ahead of any rescue fleet to help keep the poor victim alive long enough for help to arrive (yeah, teamwork, woo!) |
Sanguine Belroth
Ascetic Virtues
8
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Posted - 2011.12.06 05:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
I think range would be the real issue for this sort of Logi.
If you are rocking small reps- You would need a 600% range bonus or something absurd. In frig battles, people are all over the place. Range control is very crucial to staying alive.
The t1 cruisers are cheap, and effective for small gangs. And give ~30km range. Just throw a couple of Nano's on them so they can keep up with your wolfpack.
Small reps will remain fairly useless except for post battle top ups I'm afraid.
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Jonas Xiamon
31
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Posted - 2011.12.06 06:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
While though I'm certainly not opposed to the addition of this, and am in fact supportive of it; I feel that the situations in which these frigs are useful are so rare, that there may be better ways to spend time improving the game. Questions, comments, complaints? Please feel free to reply, I'll be serving coffee and ice cream soon. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
176
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Posted - 2011.12.06 09:12:00 -
[8] - Quote
Not too keen on adding yet another frigate hull to the various line-ups, already rather crowded in the light classes, especially one that is useless doing all but one thing.
All the T2 frigates have dual/triple roles, - Bombers dps, scout, bomb and can act as cyno for BO's. - Interceptors tackle and have highest speed in game. - EAS are mini-recons with primary + secondary eWar options. - CovOps scout, probe and can act as cyno for BO's.
The only one NOT living up to it is .. you guessed it .. the AF. They do dps (sort of) and has a little more tank, both hindered by them being as heavy as truck-stop fry cook.
Give the AF's (or half of them) a logistics role! |
Aethlyn
56
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Posted - 2011.12.06 09:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
Nice, my reply was ganked... another take on:
Granting Attack Frigates that role would be contraproductive. They're all about offense and damage after all. A Logistics role or bonus wouldn't really work with that, plus it would make it rather hard to "spot" such Logistics.
I'd rather like to see a new line of T2 destroyers being introduced. Right now there's no real use to get T2 destroyers, unless you'd like to go for the interdictor role. By creating a "Logistics Destroyer" you could get a smaller/easier to train Logistics hull, while making Destroyers more attractive and providing a ship that's easier to hit for small and large enemies. Having a tiny ship (i.e. frigate) that you can't hit while it keeps repairing the targets you actually could hit sounds quite unfair in some situations.
Also, on a further note: There are T1 cruisers having a Logistics bonus. People just ignore them most of the time (from what I've seen). If you'd really like to go for Logistics, you could test the waters with one of these, although being not as effective as with the T2, you could still lend a hand as well as see how it plays. Looking for more thoughts? Read my blog or follow me on Twitter. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
176
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Posted - 2011.12.06 10:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
Aethlyn wrote:Granting Attack Frigates that role would be contraproductive. They're all about offense and damage after all. A Logistics role or bonus wouldn't really work with that, plus it would make it rather hard to "spot" such Logistics. Where is it written that they should be mini-HACs forever more? They are slated for a revision so why not make them interesting and valuable while we are at it. As for being hard to "spot", so what? Adds to the complexity of combat which is a good thing in my opinion .. the mono-purpose design philosophy that permeates Eve ships makes every fight a carbon copy of all prior fights; nuke ECM, neut logistics, kill dps .. repeat until eyes are gouged out .. it is BORING!
Eve needs more jokers and T3's while awesome at being unpredictable are just too damn expensive to throw away on a regular basis
Aethlyn wrote:...Also, on a further note: There are T1 cruisers having a Logistics bonus. People just ignore them most of the time (from what I've seen). If you'd really like to go for Logistics, you could test the waters with one of these, although being not as effective as with the T2, you could still lend a hand as well as see how it plays. Don't know why people keep bringing this up, there is only two T1 cruiser with a logistics bonus, the (P)Osprey and Exequror, the other two have the secondary bonuses that are inherited by the T2 cruisers .. related but separate issue, all four should have logistics capability if you ask me. Also doesn't address the point of getting a ship that can keep up with a light swarm which the main reason why I would like to see a frigate (destroyer might work but they are Fugly by comparison ) logistics platform ..
I'll go away now, carry on. |
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Obsidiana
White-Noise
27
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Posted - 2011.12.07 09:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
I would like to see something that could spider tank, had an HP bonus, a damage bonus, maybe even a command bonus. Something designed to fight in a group.
Granted, that combination could work for any class ship. And yes, I just described T3. I'm hoping for something like this in T3 frigates. |
Kittamaru
Northstar Cabal Important Internet Spaceship League
1
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Posted - 2011.12.07 15:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
Making a T3 Frigate could be interesting... though the potential for SP loss would be astronomical due to the simple fact that... well, they don't have much tank to em... hence why i was thinking of sticking with T2.
HOWEVER, Logistics Destroyers could be interesting...
Gallente: Based on the Catalyst hull Gal Destroyer skill bonus: 5% Bonus to cargo capacity and 7.5% reduction to signature radius per level. Logistics Skill Bonus: 50% bonus to effectiveness of Remote Armor Repair systems and 15% reduction to Remote Armor Repair System capacitor use per level
Role Bonus: 500% bonus to range of remote armor repair systems and tracking links
(this results, at max ship skills (excluding other skills), in a 500m3 cargo bay, 46.8 m sig radius, 240 armor / SAR2 cycle with a 13.5 GJ activation, with a 24km SAR2 range and 32.5km tracking link range)
Structure Structure HP: 950 Max Velocity: 305 m/s Inertia Modifier: 3.43 Mass: 1.42 million KG Volume: 55kms Cargo: 400 m3
Armor Armor HP: 721 HP EM Resist: 50% Exp. Resist: 10% Kin. Resist: 83.75% Therm. Resist: 67.5%
Shield Shield HP: 620 HP EM Resist: 0% Exp. Resist: 50% Kin. Resist: 85% Therm. Resist: 60% Shield recharge time: 675,000 seconds
Fitting PG: 45 MW CPU: 155 tf High slots: 8 Medium Slots: 3 Low Slots: 5 Launcher Hardpoints: 0 Turret Hardpoints: 4 Calibration: 400 points Upgrade Hardpoints: 2
Drones Drone Capacity: 10 m3 Drone Bandwidth: 10 Mbit/sec
Capacitor Recharge Time: 195,500 seconds Capacity: 375 GJ
Targeting Maximum Range: 57 km Max Targets: 8 Magnetometric Strength: 11 Signature Radius: 75 m Scan Resolution: 900mm
Essentially taking the frigate idea and translating it over to a destroyer... a little more life, still very quick so it can keep pace. *shrugs* Adds some variety and should be quick/easy to program in :) |
Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
298
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Posted - 2011.12.07 16:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
With frigate speed being what it is, you'd think they'll need longer rep range than large logistics. How much bonus would that be for small rrs? |
Kittamaru
Northstar Cabal Important Internet Spaceship League
1
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Posted - 2011.12.07 16:37:00 -
[14] - Quote
Goose99 wrote:With frigate speed being what it is, you'd think they'll need longer rep range than large logistics. How much bonus would that be for small rrs?
*shrugs* you could boost it to a 1,000% bonus to range and it'd be about 50km... the idea, though, is these are ducking in and out of enemy fire WITH the combat ships, not holding off in the distance. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
66
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Posted - 2011.12.07 18:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
I'm not opposed to the idea of logistics frigates, but I'd much prefer they fix t1 logistics ships:
Both the Exeq & Osprey have the potential to become great low-cost logistics ships with only minor tweeks.
As for logistics frigates, they need to fit medium RR modules to be effective!
The purpose of logistics is a force multiplier. In a standard fleet battle, one logi ship easily negates the dps of 2+ enemy ships.This has a cascading effect, so that a fleet with a few logis can take on reasonable larger fleets and win. Now, assuming one logi-frigate provides 4 small RR, its range and rep quanitty really limit the the "force multiplier" effect. Essentially 4 Small RR doesn't negate much more than the dps of a single frigate, let alone a destroyer+ class hull.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
179
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Posted - 2011.12.07 20:59:00 -
[16] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:..As for logistics frigates, they need to fit medium RR modules to be effective!.. Well one can either give them a bonus to oversize modules as was done on logistics cruisers or one can apply an efficiency bonus .. the +100% the OP lists as role bonus makes every small RR perform like a medium just with faster cycling (yes, the numbers really line up that nicely ) Note: I am actually of two minds in regards to magnitude of said bonus as they'd be immensely powerful considering the low'ish dps of light hulls .. +50% might be enough to make them viable and then giving them some more range.
Added benefit is that we will finally have a use for a module that is never used (small rr) and it will be a lot easier to decide on a range envelope in which they they should operate (logi cruisers support ships with ranges 0-100km+, frigs top out at 30-40km or so)
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Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
4
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Posted - 2011.12.07 22:00:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kittamaru wrote:Goose99 wrote:With frigate speed being what it is, you'd think they'll need longer rep range than large logistics. How much bonus would that be for small rrs? *shrugs* you could boost it to a 1,000% bonus to range and it'd be about 50km... the idea, though, is these are ducking in and out of enemy fire WITH the combat ships, not holding off in the distance.
think he is getting at oh crap just in case of overshoot range in an orbit. Zippy frigate blows the orbit or the ship being repped loses contact with the logi. reps lost at that point. Lots of ways for this to go sour with no range. Mixed prop mods so unequal burns on prop mod spanks. if the logi is autoorbitting , that patient does a crazy ivan to throw of an enemy that logi is getting shaken off too.
Interesting idea all the same. Frig roams with frig logi an idea I could dig. Make them less suicidal to be more attractive anyway. |
Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
31
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Posted - 2011.12.07 22:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
Why do you want to repeat the problems of EAF's?
The only time a friggy version of a logi would be more useful than bringing an actual logi is those few places where only frig sized boats can go.
The niche is too small. All you wind up doing is making more EAFs. |
Obsidiana
White-Noise
30
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Posted - 2011.12.08 08:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
Before the first release of Eve, and before they came up with gangs (which were before fleets), they had formations. It worked great if all the characters had the same ship and the same skills... which doesn't happen all that often. I think revisiting formations would be worth considering. Something that let T3 ships move together, replacing individual bonuses with a strong roll bonus.
The idea is that short range RR would be fine at these close ranges. Yes, the uniformity would be a bit dull, but also kind of unique to Eve. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
180
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Posted - 2011.12.08 08:59:00 -
[20] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:...The niche is too small. All you wind up doing is making more EAFs.... The niche is only so small due to logistics naturally focusing on maintaining bigger boats with higher individual impact on a given fight and ISK cost.
AF's are absolutely nasty to have zooming around a battlefield when (done right), hard to kill for bigger boats and can pack a punch. Their only "problem" is that of long-term survivability. Try it the next time your blob of choice assembles, put together ten AF's or so and have two logistics assigned to them and them only .. more fun than shaking down fat kids for their lunch money and more challenging than evading the cops afterwards!
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Schnoo
The Schnoo
24
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Posted - 2011.12.08 09:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Why do you want to repeat the problems of EAF's?
The only time a friggy version of a logi would be more useful than bringing an actual logi is those few places where only frig sized boats can go.
The niche is too small. All you wind up doing is making more EAFs. Well that's the point. This would make frig sized gangs more viable, and certainly more so now with the addition of Tier 3 BCs which are essentially going to have problems against small vessels.
But how about you give them the ability to use medium reps (if cruiser t2s can use large, these should be able to use mediums), along with an extra range bonus. However, they should still require the Logistics skill, but not the Cruiser one.
And as far as the T3 frigates are concerned, it wouldn't be bad to have them at all, but this comes first (let's see how it plays out first). |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
3
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Posted - 2011.12.09 19:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
I would love to see logistics frigates. It might also be interesting if they came out with destroyer sized command ships. They would certainly make wolfpacks much better. Logistics support would probably also be something of a stealth buff to AFs as well.
Seeing as cruiser logis use large repair modules, it would stand to reason frigate sized logis would use medium modules. That, combined with a range bonus, would likely alleviate any range problems. Other frigates can go out of range much more quickly, but their guns are shorter ranged, so, as long as everyone is ganging up on one target, they should be in the vicinity of each other.\
As for T3 Frigates. I admit the idea intrigues me as a small craft pilot, but everything about a frigate is fast, and that, unfortunately, includes the speed at which things can go wrong. I don't want skillpoints and huge sums of money riding on something that would drop quickly. |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
46
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Posted - 2011.12.09 19:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
The only problem with this idea is that frigates don't naturally soak damage, they avoid it. If they are caught, they die quickly. RR or rep drones are enough to repair between battles already. It's a neat idea, but I don't see it having much actual use. |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
3
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Posted - 2011.12.09 19:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
Is there any reason to believe that adding logistics to the field wouldn't change that depending on group composition?
It would be similar to how for solo and small group PvP you want a local tabk, but for larger groups, you buffer tank and call for logistical support. In this case, small group wolfpacks would still rely on kiting to stay alive, but larger swarms might drop speed mods for a plate and call for repairs if they are caught. |
Schnoo
The Schnoo
24
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Posted - 2011.12.09 19:29:00 -
[25] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:The only problem with this idea is that frigates don't naturally soak damage, they avoid it. If they are caught, they die quickly. RR or rep drones are enough to repair between battles already. It's a neat idea, but I don't see it having much actual use. Yes and no. Frigs sig and speed tank usually, with many having multiple thousand HP, AFs going easily above 15k if they buffer tank. If they don't get alphad, it should be possible that they can get repaired (is it that different with big ships?).
Xindi Kraid wrote:As for T3 Frigates. I admit the idea intrigues me as a small craft pilot, but everything about a frigate is fast, and that, unfortunately, includes the speed at which things can go wrong. I don't want skillpoints and huge sums of money riding on something that would drop quickly. I assume they would cost like T2 Cruisers, maybe a bit more, but still probably less than one third of what T3 Cruisers do. And I don't think they'd be dying any faster than other ships of the same cost. They'd probably end up having T2 Cruiser tank with frigate speed, agility and sig, that's something that will in fact be hard to kill. It's all hypothetical for now, nothing is yet set in stone. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
182
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Posted - 2011.12.09 22:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
Challenge for all the non-believers.
Get 3-4 buddies who knows how to handle a ship and fit them all out with AF's with a single small RR and AB for propulsion (DP when/if wanted and possible), have had great fun in 2-3 Vengeances (tackle/RR/secondary dps) with 2-3 Retris (dps/rr). You'll be surprised just how hard a small cluster of spider AF's can be to crack .. fun and fast .. when it works you get a hard-on of Herculean proportions and when it fails it is violent (but cheap ). |
Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
33
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Posted - 2011.12.10 00:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
Hirana Yoshida wrote:Challenge for all the non-believers. Get 3-4 buddies who knows how to handle a ship and fit them all out with AF's with a single small RR and AB for propulsion (DP when/if wanted and possible), have had great fun in 2-3 Vengeances (tackle/RR/secondary dps) with 2-3 Retris (dps/rr). You'll be surprised just how hard a small cluster of spider AF's can be to crack .. fun and fast .. when it works you get a hard-on of Herculean proportions and when it fails it is violent (but cheap ).
SO your money is on AFs + Logi being one of the standard gang doctrines soon? Since they are so effective and all?
And it is a srs question not a sassy-pants comment. |
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
191
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Posted - 2011.12.10 00:51:00 -
[28] - Quote
it would be wierd, they would have almost no survivabiity and probably be like EW frigs, too expensive and to easy to kill compared to cruiser counterparts |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
183
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Posted - 2011.12.10 08:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:SO your money is on AFs + Logi being one of the standard gang doctrines soon? Since they are so effective and all?
And it is a srs question not a sassy-pants comment. Not at all, if riding with a logistic there are usually better options (ie. MOAR CANES!), also the only logi that can really keep pace is the Scimitar and it is very vulnerable to neuting/dampening. it was a general response to all the people saying that small RR are insufficient and that they need a bazillion km RR range to be viable.
As I said previously, one of the reasons I'd like a dedicated light logistics platform is that in cases where it is required (ie. gangs/fleets with larger boats) there are bound to be higher priority targets for the logistics pilots so the frigates are left to fend for themselves which leads to interceptors (and Covops) being the only ships that really see larger battles. |
YuuKnow
Estel Arador Corp Services
3
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Posted - 2011.12.10 17:14:00 -
[30] - Quote
I'm not in favor of Logistic Frigates, but rather... Anti-Logistic Frigates. An Anti-Logistic Frigater would be a Tech 3 Frigate that can target a ship and turn on a module (whatever you want to call the module) that will prevent that ship from being repped.
A much needed counter to Logistics and adds complexity to the fleet flight.
It also makes frigate roles in fleet fights more viable again because you will need a counter to the Anti-Logistic frigates to take them out.... Destroyers and such.
In a large scale,the battle would be complex (hopefully) |
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