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Warp to 0 - it's coming, no doubt about it

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Farkenloon	Posted - 2006.11.19 21:35:00 - [91] Originally by: Admiral Machiavelli What the Hell? I don't care about 'omg lag!', personally. What's really going to kill me is when people are taking advantage of WTZ to move around easily in low-security space. The expensive price of instas combined with the threat of piracy is what keeps a lot of High-Sec players from spilling over into the adjoining, "dangerous" regions currently. WTZ will effectively slice that in half (or even more), because as more carebear players move from High->Low Sec you will have a decreasing risk of piracy in these new highly populated systems (on average). These players will likely not add to the pirate population as they stayed in High-Sec for so long, and are therefore less inclined to turn towards PvP. Some may argue that this will be beneficial to piracy, as there will be a wealth of new targets. However, if you are a pirate, do you really want to go picking off targets in a 100+ populated system of carebears? The pirate would probably either be 1) run out of system quickly or 2) summarily squashed by a horde of rampaging bees. Higher population leads to greater security. So, you will have more people and more security in Low-Sec space, since it will be easier to get to (essentially free!) with WTZ. Guess what's going to happen to your market when people are stripping Low Security ice belts like they did in High Sec. Think about the impact on the market it will have when Zydrine is made positively common through the actions of swarms of carebear miners stripping these 'rarer' belts clean. Worst idea ever. Those that don't care about 'omg lag!' are the ones most likely not experiencing it. I made it a point not to whine about lag earlier or now, but I wanted to mention that as being the main reason for agreeing with CCP's changes to bookmarks. As for the side effect of WTZ and what that does for PvP and the economy, you're making a lot of assumptions in your scenario. If there are 100+ carebears in a system, that's just 100+ targets for a good pirate. If carebears were aggressive and good at PvP, then you wouldn't be calling them carebears, would you? :) Instead of a horde of rampaging bees, you can imagine a field of grazing gazelles (only bigger, and munching on rocks). The only thing you ought to be afraid of in the new system is not having the cargo space to haul all the ammo you'll need, if there are that many stupid players willing to take their shiny new miners out into 0.0 space as soon as WTZ comes up. If higher population really led to better security, then carebear alliances could just head out to low sec space now. WTZ isn't going to make anyone invincible. Pirates that have to rely on gate camping to get their jollies aren't a lot different from carebears in my opinion, they just have bigger guns.
Roy Batty68	Posted - 2006.11.19 21:45:00 - [92] Originally by: Jodicamar Now what about them "Billions" of iskies spent on getting the upperhand with BM's thats going to get deleted. Caveat Emptor Originally by: Big Al Well, if there was a law against stupidity, the server would certainly lag less.
Wan Bai	Posted - 2006.11.19 21:51:00 - [93] Here's a question from a sniper specialist in fleet and other situations like gate sniping haulers in low-sec or protecting my home 0.0 system from raids: As a sniper I have multiple BMs around each gate and around the station. Let's say I have 5-6 BMs around a gate and 8 around the station. There are 4 gates in my system, so maximum that's 32 BMs in a system. But that's not it, also have a set of BMs for short sniping if i'm in my harpy, so that's double: 64 BMs in a system, it's a lot, but it's my home. Other systems aren't nearly as well planned out, but it begs to ask the question: How will snipers, at least fleet snipers in 0.0 who have a stake to claim and protect, fare? And whether the minimum distance is 40 or 80km doesn't make much of a difference since my BMs, even the short distance ones are 90-110km.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.19 21:58:00 - [94] Originally by: Rod Blaine Fine, as long as they solve the ctrl-q madness along with it. That may not be a stress on the server, but it most certainly is a stress on the gameplay. And hopefully add a few new ways to catch people, too. But yea, saw this one comming a mile off. //Maya
Galimiy Portret R.u.S.H. - Fanatics	Posted - 2006.11.19 22:53:00 - [95] Yeeee-haaaaa!!! Keep it comin' baby! :) ...now in RED
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.19 23:24:00 - [96] Edited by: Nev Clavain on 19/11/2006 23:28:48 Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 13/11/2006 19:11:02 Originally by: Uglyone darwinism just got nerfed :( some ppl need darwin just to learn and now they never will. You guys with all the darwanism... you are playing a computer game killing nubs in spaceships. That should tell you about darwanism and your role in it... This is just a game ffs. The nub you are killing might be Bill Gates! Darwanism... pff.... QFT. People don't understand the actual concept of Darwinism. One person must have mentioned once and its become an irritating forum catchphrase ever since. As for warp to 0, I think the sky is now falling for certain type of carebear. These are carebears who like to kill people, but don't seem to have the brains to work out there are plenty of ways to kill people even with a warp to 0 implementation.
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2006.11.20 02:02:00 - [97] Originally by: Nev Clavain QFT. People don't understand the actual concept of Darwinism. One person must have mentioned once and its become an irritating forum catchphrase ever since. As for warp to 0, I think the sky is now falling for certain type of carebear. These are carebears who like to kill people, but don't seem to have the brains to work out there are plenty of ways to kill people even with a warp to 0 implementation. Carebear? One person must have mentioned once and its become an irritating forum catchphrase ever since. Originally by: Ask Ninja Kill all the wolves you're gonna have a crapload of bunnies, and by bunnies I mean stupid people.
xinndo	Posted - 2006.11.20 02:56:00 - [98] as a relatively new player to eve. wtz - good thing. combat should not be about who has the best bookmarks! eve online is about to take its next step to mainstream gaming - ala . pick up the slack from disillusioned mmo' players from wow in a gradual step then the significant dx10 upgrade. imsho - you guys have had it easy for far to long. in the next 2 years, pvp going to change - have to look for fight and stay for it. time of the warp bubble/camp will soon be at an end. really think about it - how challenge are u as an individual (no matter what experience or age) are you in eve? eve online is gaining in popularity - as such it can no longer be a subscription based mmo with no skill basis. (this is not a "dig" at veterans - but seriously - get a grip, you all know u play other games for the buzz ) conc. ms + dx10 - eve going to change. like or not - some things yes will indeed change. but its a great game "but just not what we know as jim"
Arekhon	Posted - 2006.11.20 03:03:00 - [99] Not to say that I am some PVP master , cause I am not but it seems that most of the peeps whinning are the gate campers/gankers. I for one have all of my kills out in the belts jumping my unsuspecting prey. Or IO catch them complex running...hehe. So really what is the big deal. You get more noobs in low sec to rat ie. more tgts. You can still have your bubbles/dictors in 0.0 to protect your space, cause everytime I have used an insta in 0.0 I have still been pulled from warp by the bubble. So you can't bubble in lowsec without sentry fire you say? Well you could not attack at gate without sentry fire anyhow. my two cents
Decairn Caldari Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.20 03:10:00 - [100] I look forward to being able to open People n Places 'Places' tab again without a 1 minute delay and a 1 minute delay again on making a BM. --Decairn
Mi Lai Sanguine Legion	Posted - 2006.11.20 06:41:00 - [101] Even though I pirate, I quite like this change. Gatecamps can still be done on the 'jump in'. With a bit of luck, empire dwellers with their brand new Warp To 0 system will risk going into low sec more often, so they can compensate the loss in revenue from the 'warp in' customers. I recall our first 2 moves (before the bookmark copy nerf) and I spend hours logged on in a station just to distribute the regional insta's to my corpies (after the BM nerf, I slacked though ). With Warp to Zero, we can just plot our AP with whatever we got instead of hoping we got someone with the insta's as a taxi-driver or all of us packing smaller ships. I foresee more globalised terror after Kali The only downside I see is the added Hitpoints, allowing people to play stupid docking/jumping game some more and prevent you from entering a busy system and blow some poor fella's up before the cavalry arrives. Perhaps CCP can be nice to us pirates and spit people out at 15km or more away from stations (like uncloaking after jump in does)?
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.11.20 07:31:00 - [102] Originally by: xinndo as a relatively new player to eve. Cool, newbies are good for any game. Quote: wtz - good thing. I disagree. Quote: combat should not be about who has the best bookmarks! Amen brother! Quote: eve online is about to take its next step to mainstream gaming - ala . pick up the slack from disillusioned mmo' players from wow in a gradual step then the significant dx10 upgrade. Making the game cater to impatient types who want things to happen as soon as they realize they want them is not worth going into 'mainstream gaming'. Quote: imsho - you guys have had it easy for far to long. in the next 2 years, pvp going to change - have to look for fight and stay for it. PvP might change...well gate sniping isn't real PvP imo. Quote: time of the warp bubble/camp will soon be at an end. Quite the opposite actually, not only will Warp Bubble camps still be effective, but Large Warp Bubbles will finally be available. Quote: really think about it - how challenge are u as an individual (no matter what experience or age) are you in eve? The challenge for me has nothing to do with gate pvp. Quote: eve online is gaining in popularity - as such it can no longer be a subscription based mmo with no skill basis. What? WTZ does not add skill, it removes some of it. Quote: (this is not a "dig" at veterans - but seriously - get a grip, you all know u play other games for the buzz ) I play other games because my friends don't have patience for Eve, granted I could tell them Eve is becoming just as easy as WoW and see if they might change their minds. Quote: conc. ms + dx10 - eve going to change. like or not - some things yes will indeed change. but its a great game "but just not what we know as jim" Change is good, exact change is better. Back on topic, improvements are welcome, WTZ is not. ~Thor Xian, Material Defender "Victory is the weakness of the enemy." "It is better to die by my Autocannon, than to live for your Veldspar."
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.20 08:23:00 - [103] Originally by: Rod Blaine Fine, as long as they solve the ctrl-q madness along with it. That may not be a stress on the server, but it most certainly is a stress on the gameplay. Agreed, and fix login traps at the same time please.
Eudyptes sclateri	Posted - 2006.11.20 09:43:00 - [104] Originally by: Nev Clavain QFT. People don't understand the actual concept of Darwinism. One person must have mentioned once and its become an irritating forum catchphrase ever since. Thank you, someone finally said it! Darwin's theory on natural selection has to be the single most misused and misquoted scientific theory. There are tons of herbivores and even plants with higher fitness than some predators. Natural selection is not about killing and survival; it's about reproduction. And the closest thing we have to that in EVE is when my **** drones stop 2km away from my ship and start humping eachother. __________________________________________________ Ever notice that people who say "problem solved" seem to have the worst ideas?
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.20 11:00:00 - [105] Originally by: Eudyptes sclateri Originally by: Nev Clavain QFT. People don't understand the actual concept of Darwinism. One person must have mentioned once and its become an irritating forum catchphrase ever since. Thank you, someone finally said it! Darwin's theory on natural selection has to be the single most misused and misquoted scientific theory. There are tons of herbivores and even plants with higher fitness than some predators. Natural selection is not about killing and survival; it's about reproduction. And the closest thing we have to that in EVE is when my **** drones stop 2km away from my ship and start humping eachother. In the forum world the real meaning died out and the psuedo meaning survived. Darwinism at work on its own definition. ---------- IBTL \o/
Pehova Mindtriq Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.20 11:22:00 - [106] I think WTZ is a great thing. I live in 0.0 and it is very rare that you come across enemies warping to gates or stations at 15km, pretty much everyone use instant bms where I live. So not much will change for my game play except it will be less laggy ad that is very good. Hopefully people start travelling more aswell now that you don't have to copy 500 bms to travel safer in a new region. Celes/Toxin vs BOB
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.20 13:37:00 - [107] Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Originally by: Nev Clavain QFT. People don't understand the actual concept of Darwinism. One person must have mentioned once and its become an irritating forum catchphrase ever since. As for warp to 0, I think the sky is now falling for certain type of carebear. These are carebears who like to kill people, but don't seem to have the brains to work out there are plenty of ways to kill people even with a warp to 0 implementation. Carebear? One person must have mentioned once and its become an irritating forum catchphrase ever since. Lol fair enough, you got me :) Mind you i don't use it often, I just know the people I was referring to would hate being called carebear. And also to Thor Xian if he is still reading this thread, can you please tell me exactly what warp to 0 has changed. I know there are numerous obscure examples you can use to say certain things have been made easier. However I would say the majority of people doing long trips or moving through lowsec or 0.0 will already have instas and will be using them. There aren't that many explorers in this game who constantly switch to different areas, and even when they are do you know the first thing they do when they get there - get in a fast ship or cloaker and make instas for the whole new route or journey, if they plan to do it often. Whats the first thing a fleet does when going to a new region? get a load of instas. The whole system is a farce to be honest and is killing the server, and the large majority will make or obtain instas for anywhere they travel frequently. Admittedly there is a tiny majority who seem to consider themselves hardcore for not using instas under any circumstances. Presumably these people also like to indulge in self-flagellation at the weekends (jk)
Halafian The Graduates	Posted - 2006.11.20 14:05:00 - [108] A very obvious and excellent change for the game. CCP's proposed new system is excellent -- a nice balance of features. Sure, there are the knee-jerk whiners, but there's a complainer in every crowd. Very much looking forward to this change, which will hopefully open the game up some.
Allaina Amarr Dirty Deeds Corp.	Posted - 2006.11.20 14:21:00 - [109] Originally by: Noriath I think this change is not so bad, the giant advantage that a full set of bookmarks gives a player right now is simply unfair towards everyone who wasn't in the game when bookmarks could be copied by the thousands in an instant. Thousands of bookmarks in an instant? That was NEVER the case.
FactorzGT Quantum Industries	Posted - 2006.11.21 01:04:00 - [110] what about the part where anchored warp disruptor probes suck you in even if they are physically BEHIND the gate where they are deployed?
Zarquon Beeblebrox Liberate Vos Ex Inferis	Posted - 2006.11.21 01:55:00 - [111] Im verry sad to see "warp to 0" introduced to the game. Id prefere all the instas removed and ppl had to travle the 15km But i gues the crybabys have once more won the arguments. -- Lady Beeblebrox
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.21 02:02:00 - [112] Originally by: Zarquon Beeblebrox Im verry sad to see "warp to 0" introduced to the game. Id prefere all the instas removed and ppl had to travle the 15km But i gues the crybabys have once more won the arguments. If the best you can come up with is that everyone who disagrees with you is a 'crybaby', then im not surprised you lost the argument.
Grez Minmatar The Raven Warriors	Posted - 2006.11.21 02:24:00 - [113] Edited by: Grez on 21/11/2006 02:24:46 I'm a pirate, and I honestly don't care about this change. I can see many people pouting like babies, because their ability to insta-pop haulers and what not without insta's is going to go bye-bye. This game is not about solo work, and this change is going to force people to work in gangs, doesn't matter how big, or small. You're going to need co-ordination to catch someone you want to kill. A real pirate doesn't just sit at one gate, at a sniper spot (or not), and wait for a ship (by chance) to warp to 15km, so they can ****them silly. A real pirate chases his pray, and kills him/her. This warp to 0km will just allow the newer players without bookmarks to have the same chance as you at warping to a gate at 0km. I mean, hell. we already have WTZ in-game, some of you just don't realise it. And I fail to see the point of how removing all bookmarks and keeping warp-in to 15km is going to make the game better. I can see people not wanting to move about at all unless in very large gangs, it'll also take forever to get anywhere. And whilst I can understand the arguement of players not wanting travel to be instantanious - I have bookmarks, and it still takes me a while to get from point A > B with a gang with waiting for everyone to align, etc. All this does is allow your pray to have the same chance as YOU, and if you can't hack that, then I guess we'll all say goodbye to those of you who refuse to adapt. Oh, and that comment about CCP caving into people whining about wanting WTZ? Why should they cave into people whining against WTZ? You're doing exactly the same thing as they are, and I honestly can't see a distinctive difference between the two parties, it looks about 50/50. I will adapt, and I will prevail. Whatever CCP has to throw at my way of playing this game, I will take as a head on challange. I will find new ways to kill my enemy, and in that, I'm sure I'll find a new satisfation when I kill them. - Grez --- Cache Clearer Still waiting for a Wrangler-edit!*
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.11.21 02:40:00 - [114] Originally by: Nev Clavain And also to Thor Xian if he is still reading this thread, can you please tell me exactly what warp to 0 has changed. I am, and I will. WTZ change isn't gameplay as it stands now as much as it is CCP showing a willingness to bend to the playerbase by making things easier when they don't need to be. WTZ is not a solution to the gameplay problems instas created, all WTZ will do is reduce lag. Killing instas never required WTZ or anything like it to happen and still doesn't. Quote: I know there are numerous obscure examples you can use to say certain things have been made easier. Certainly are a few. Quote: However I would say the majority of people doing long trips or moving through lowsec or 0.0 will already have instas and will be using them. That never was and never will be a legitimate justification for WTZ. Quote: There aren't that many explorers in this game who constantly switch to different areas, and even when they are do you know the first thing they do when they get there - get in a fast ship or cloaker and make instas for the whole new route or journey, if they plan to do it often. And this overwhelming need to engage in this behavior is somehow supposed to be a good thing? If they got in a fast ship to make the instas, why can't they just get in a fast ship to travel in the first place? Quote: Whats the first thing a fleet does when going to a new region? get a load of instas. Yep, these silly Blobs would be much less prolific without instas/WTZ since distance will have much more meaning. Not to mention a greater chance of strategic planning being necessary. Quote: The whole system is a farce to be honest and is killing the server, and the large majority will make or obtain instas for anywhere they travel frequently. Agreed, but I don't think they should be able to. Quote: Admittedly there is a tiny majority who seem to consider themselves hardcore for not using instas under any circumstances. Presumably these people also like to indulge in self-flagellation at the weekends (jk) I am not hardcore for refusing to use instas, I just give a **** about the game as a whole, not just my small part in it. ~Thor Xian, Material Defender "Victory is the weakness of the enemy." "It is better to die by my Autocannon, than to live for your Veldspar."
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.11.21 02:49:00 - [115] Originally by: Grez I'm a pirate, and I honestly don't care about this change. WTZ makes it easier for real pirates. The Gate Campers whining are irrelevant. Quote: I can see many people pouting like babies, because their ability to insta-pop haulers and what not without insta's is going to go bye-bye. This game is not about solo work, and this change is going to force people to work in gangs, doesn't matter how big, or small. You're going to need co-ordination to catch someone you want to kill. What did you need before to catch someone you want to kill? Quote: A real pirate doesn't just sit at one gate, at a sniper spot (or not), and wait for a ship (by chance) to warp to 15km, so they can ***them silly. A real pirate chases his pray, and kills him/her. This warp to 0km will just allow the newer players without bookmarks to have the same chance as you at warping to a gate at 0km. Nobody should have instas, no matter how old they are. Quote: I mean, hell. we already have WTZ in-game, some of you just don't realise it. I realize it, but that doesn't mean I won't fight it. CCP wants to fix the BM problem in the Name of Server Stability, but they cave on the gameplay addiction instas caused by making this WTZ stuff. Quote: And I fail to see the point of how removing all bookmarks and keeping warp-in to 15km is going to make the game better. Clearly. Quote: I can see people not wanting to move about at all unless in very large gangs, And that is different than now? Quote: it'll also take forever to get anywhere. As it should, distance needs to matter. Quote: And whilst I can understand the arguement of players not wanting travel to be instantanious - I have bookmarks, and it still takes me a while to get from point A > B with a gang with waiting for everyone to align, etc. It takes you awhile from your point of view (which is always the case no matter how fast you are going), but in the big picture you are going way too fast. Quote: All this does is allow your pray to have the same chance as YOU, and if you can't hack that, then I guess we'll all say goodbye to those of you who refuse to adapt. Refuse to adapt to what? Quote: Oh, and that comment about CCP caving into people whining about wanting WTZ? Why should they cave into people whining against WTZ? Because CCP designed Eve to not have WTZ. I'm defending the integrity of CCP's game even if they won't. Quote: You're doing exactly the same thing as they are, and I honestly can't see a distinctive difference between the two parties, it looks about 50/50. My motives are not selfish, pro-WTZers can't say that. Quote:** I will adapt, and I will prevail. Whatever CCP has to throw at my way of playing this game, I will take as a head on challange. I will find new ways to kill my enemy, and in that, I'm sure I'll find a new satisfation when I kill them. - Grez Have fun. WTZ is a fix alright, a fix for addicts. ~Thor Xian, Material Defender "Victory is the weakness of the enemy." "It is better to die by my Autocannon, than to live for your Veldspar."
Halafian The Graduates	Posted - 2006.11.21 06:08:00 - [116] It seems odd, to say the least, to argue that WTZ is not Eve-as-intended, when the people who design and build Eve apparently disagree. Moreover, even existing functionality allows WTZ in effect. You can repeat all you like that it's not part of Eve, but there's no basis for that. That's just your opinion, and an increasingly irrelevant one, since all the evidence runs the other way. It's going to be an excellent change, and will encourage people to do a little poking around.
tadig smik Taintclan Industries	Posted - 2006.11.21 06:26:00 - [117] Originally by: Admiral Pieg Originally by: Jodicamar Now what about them "Billions" of iskies spent on getting the upperhand with BM's thats going to get deleted. What about them? You got the upper hand for the period that you had them, bookmarks have been an issue for ages and their removal has been imminent, anyone that bought them must have known they were only a temporary solution. If it's not CCP sanctioned... you're gambling with your ISK. Remember EIB?
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.11.21 07:22:00 - [118] Originally by: Halafian It seems odd, to say the least, to argue that WTZ is not Eve-as-intended, when the people who design and build Eve apparently disagree. Moreover, even existing functionality allows WTZ in effect. You can repeat all you like that it's not part of Eve, but there's no basis for that. That's just your opinion, and an increasingly irrelevant one, since all the evidence runs the other way. It's going to be an excellent change, and will encourage people to do a little poking around. I remember when instas were a new invention that few knew about. I remember telling people how to make them. I remember how Eve changed when the insta addiction took hold. Lag got worse and so did gameplay. WTZ was never built into Eve until Kali. It was always an unintended feature...I had just hoped CCP would be smart enough to kill them while they had a chance to. But it looks like they will cross the point of no return...all too willingly. ~Thor Xian, Material Defender "Victory is the weakness of the enemy." "It is better to die by my Autocannon, than to live for your Veldspar."
Le Skunk Privateers	Posted - 2006.11.21 07:31:00 - [119] Has it been suggested that warp to 0km could be implemented in High Sec, but the standard system works in 0.0 This would reduce server load and cut the tedium traveling round empire, whilst still making 0.0 a dangerous place to pop your head into and provide a home advantage for the locals. Didnt we learn something about compromise from sesamme street. Wernt we paying attention. One-two-three-four-five-six-seven-eight-nine-ten-eleven-twelve
Redpants Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2006.11.21 07:44:00 - [120] So if we can just warp to 0, then what's the purpose of CONCORD Billboards anymore. Who's going to see them? I use instas myself but I always appreciated having to taxi from 15 in the sole respect that it's the only time in the game you get to see other travelers around you and look at their ships. Of course if you're in a corp you get to see your corpmates ships but I think you get the point without the few exceptions. Scanning industrial ships cargo holds in trade lanes will also be impossible. I mean half of me likes this idea because I do use instas anyway, but part of me does not like instas either and doesn't know what the good solution is, if it's not Warp to 0. ________________________________________________________________________________ "My once immaculate white pants are now stained from the weak and innocent. I don't wear red."

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