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WCS nerf won't fix Vagabond imbalance

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Father Weebles Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.11.13 17:02:00 - [61] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Laboratus Originally by: Jim McGregor Dont worry. One of the devs said on EveTV this weekend that speedy ships are getting nerfed. He didnt say which ones, but it doesnt take a genius to guess the Vaga is amongst them. Its a shame, it was a really fun ship while it was allowed to be. Agreed Crap. You're probably set for the rest of your eve-life, so no worries. "Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
Ar3s	Posted - 2006.11.13 17:30:00 - [62] Firstly this thread is another "beacon of light" on how stupid this forum has become, nothing but moan this and nerf that ..... pathetic. So what if Vaga's are fast after someone spends 2 billion isk on implants. Stop posting on the forums and get yourself a Rapier or Hugin, fit dual webs and turn that 8,000m/s to 80m/s and laugh all the way to the bank .....
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.11.13 17:33:00 - [63] Originally by: Super frenchy Want to kill a vaga solo ( well past kali at least with the wcs nerf ) ? Put 2 neutralyser , a mwd and a web on any bs, wait for him to orbit you, put on the neutra mwd toward him then web him when in range ==> vaga toast Not very difficult... You can also use faction web ( well a vaga cost 200+ itself , even a domination webber cost less than that and make a vaga very easy to kill with any bc/has/cs/bs or even goot kitted T1 cruiser and the second his cap starts disappearing he is out of there... we are not saying that they cant be killed, they can but only if the pilot makes a mistake. what normally happens is vaga see's that his cap is going and bugs out ... apologists will say that "well, he lost and didnt get a kill, isnt that bad enough" and the answer is no, it is not bad enough ... the vaga can initiate a fight with anything, and as soon as he gets webbed/nossed he is warping out ... I would guess that they would not even try to take on a recon ship that can web/warp disrupt .. Let me spell it out, a vagabond is basically uncatchable, even when being flown with a pilot with low skills. If you warp disrupt it it can be out of range in a second or two and warp off. If you web it (recon only as nothing else can get close enough with a clued in pilot) it will warp out... and lets not forget that there is not a single vagabond that does not have a wcs (or two or three) in lows. ya ya, everyone on the forums wouldnt even dream of fitting wcs on their vagabond, lets check killmails and see how many have them fitted, or check forums for flames about vagas warping off with points on them
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.13 17:36:00 - [64] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 13/11/2006 17:37:17 Radioactive Babe, wcs got nerfed. So if you want to use 2 wcs, you get a targeting range of 16 km on a Vaga with max skills. So you add a sensor booster in one of the medium slots. The Vaga then have one large shield extender as defense... umm, isnt that nerfed enough? Like I said before, they shouldnt nerf the ship, they should nerf the snakes instead, because they affect all speedy ships and not just one. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.13 17:41:00 - [65] Dont worry Jim, what is nerfed with the stats can be gained back through inertia stabs and rigs. Since WCS is removed from vaga setups there will be plenty of room for inertias and nanos.. Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.13 17:44:00 - [66] Originally by: Kunming Dont worry Jim, what is nerfed with the stats can be gained back through inertia stabs and rigs. Since WCS is removed from vaga setups there will be plenty of room for inertias and nanos.. True. But wait until you meet two recons for webbing and warp disrupting. They could warp in and lock you and web you very, very fast. Thats all it takes really. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Quarantine Viziam	Posted - 2006.11.13 17:50:00 - [67] Yes, snake+faction vagas are a little overpowered. A vanilla t2 vaga isn't however, so nerfing the vaga itself would be beside the point. So, to make life a little easier for those who don't want to spend an entire 2 minutes to figure out how to kill a ship worth (including the pod) 2 bil, a stacking penatly for the speed bonus of the vaga, the snakes and other speed imps is in order. Honestly, we can't expect the standard eve player to fight a ship that doesn't automatically get pwned by the standard Raven and Domi fits you grabbed from the eve-o forums . In another similar thread while ago someone mentioned how funny it is that when the Nidhoggur goes 15m/s faster than the other carriers but is inferior in like every other stat apart from that, it's "minmatar design philosophy", but when a minnie ship actually gets an tactical advantage out of superior speed it should immediately be nerfed into the ground.
DarkElf Caldari Euphoria Released	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:11:00 - [68] As a point which some ppl here might find interesting. if you look on one of the most heavily used killboards podbase.com you will find that more vagas have been destroyed than zealots, ishtars, eagles, cerberus's, sacs, muninns, in fact i think they are the 2nd most destroyed hac on there at 571. i guess all those were due to lag then as it's so impossbile to kill. DE
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:19:00 - [69] Originally by: Quarantine Yes, snake+faction vagas are a little overpowered. A vanilla t2 vaga isn't however, so nerfing the vaga itself would be beside the point. QFT. If you spend 1 billion isk on fittings and implants, the vaga rules, as it should. As would most hacs with similar investments.
Aberash eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:22:00 - [70] Reduce the vaga's speed to a reasonable speed, which makes them slightly less effective = stop all the whining = vaga prices go slightly down = better for the people who use them as they can buy them more. Face it, the wc's change is going to stop stabbed snipers, but instead of stabbabonds there will be uber fast nanobonds everywere. make them a bit slower!
Adril Alatar Minmatar No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:24:00 - [71] Originally by: Fredbob Originally by: Iteken Hotori Lucky it's a minnie ship therefore needs to be nerfed if it's good at soemthing. I presume it'd be fine if it was Caldari or Gallente,a s they are supposed to be solo-uber-pwners ? One single ship, one extremely expensive ship that takes time and effort to get into and working right for you, perfectly fills the Minmatar design philosophy... And you want it nerfed, because of that...... No. QFT. Why can minnie not have a ship that's effective at doing something? Especially that of hit & run, our supposed racial advantage. One of the true minnie ships (i.e. it has a velocity bonus, missing from 90% of our "speedy ships") the vagabond is fun to fly, and if CCP come down on fast ships hard as they say... it's detrimental to that fun and kittens will die Sure with snakes it's almost overpowered, but a huginn/rapier can stop it dead in it's tracks - a 300mil ship with 700mil implants dead in the water from a single recon.. Vaga without it's velocity high is a useless ship that dies in seconds to any small gang. Learn to handle them and accept that not all ships are tank&gank. Variety is GOOD, it's nice to have speed as an advantage instead of theoretical "dps"/resistances and I like the fact that a ship not based on nos&drones is popular in the PvP world. QFT Originally by: Radioactive Babe 4km/s for anything other than an interceptor is too **** fast (taking in implants/gang bonuses) OMG So you want to nerf every ship thats going faster then 4km/s with gang bonus, faction stuff and implants? Yeah sure nerf 50% of all ships in eve.... fecking god, even an Apoc is going almost 3000m/s without implants and faction stuff... Minmatar have one ship doing its thing very good and everyone is crying nerf nerf nerf....
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:31:00 - [72] Vaga isn't overpowered, pirate implants are. Seriously.. anything that can give you an inherent 50% bonus to your ship without fitting a single module is absolutely crazy.
eve warrior Minmatar Serial Killers	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:46:00 - [73] Originally by: Shirazz The vaga should NOT be nerfed. Just because some gimp can kill everything else in his pwnmobile of a domi and cant kill a vaga isnt a reason to complain, its a reason to be laughed at. I have poped one of those things in an arbi with 2 webs, they have NO tank when webbed. Oh and who said nossing ecming and droneing some poor guy to death required any more skill? Signed o/
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2006.11.13 20:03:00 - [74] Originally by: Mallick I agree to that a Vagabond should be a fast ship. But seeing Vagabonds going 6-8 km/s is RIDICILOUS! Most interceptors have problems to even reach that speed, yet alone being able to run it forever. Most Vagabonds also have problems going 6-8Km/s and keeping it up forever. Much more so than Interceptors, which can easily go way beyong 10Km/s (with the same implants and gang boosts the Vagabonds need to go 6-8Km/s)
Laboratus Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.13 20:41:00 - [75] Originally by: Talo Momoe Originally by: Laboratus IMHO. The vaga is ok in 1vs1 and small gangs, but starts to suffer a lot when more ppl join in the fight. It is good in one small aspect of the game, but not uber or even good in all of them, so IMHO, it is ok. Okay, but the majority of the game is 1v1 or small gang combat. A Vagabond can fly around 0.0 escaping any pursuit or gate camps, and just has to run around until he finds easy targets and then can pick them off at will. These things are extremely difficult to trap. Yes, it can be done in theory. Actually making it happen is a very different story. You put two Vagabonds in the same region, and you might as well log off if you were thinking about doing any ratting or mining. They'll be there as long as they please. Yes, they are very annoying. Pesky flies. But "combat pilots" that just log when they see resistance don't get much prestige. And as I have said on quite a few posts I have fought more 100vs100 combats in the one year in the game, than 1vs1s. Up to this point most 1vs1s have always become at least 5vs1s. So I find your claim, based on empirical evidence, false or at least a bad estimation based on a very limited group of iterations, and as such very inaccurate. Originally by: Talo Momoe Originally by: Ruze It's speed, though intense, IS NOT OVERPOWERING. What part of 7+ km/s isn't overpowering? Originally by: Ruze To kill a Vega, change your tactics to suit. If you would rather just have them nerfed because you don't want to change how YOU play to address the vega pilots, that's because your a poor player. I have never seen anyone destroy a ship by running away, or by going faster. They always go down with damage from guns... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Altai Saker Omniscient Order The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:01:00 - [76] So whats the dps of a vaga with 3 gyrostabs? and a Zealot with 3 HS?
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:05:00 - [77] Originally by: DarkElf As a point which some ppl here might find interesting. if you look on one of the most heavily used killboards podbase.com you will find that more vagas have been destroyed than zealots, ishtars, eagles, cerberus's, sacs, muninns, in fact i think they are the 2nd most destroyed hac on there at 571. i guess all those were due to lag then as it's so impossbile to kill. DE There's always a story behind the statistics. In this case, most likely because the Vagabond is probably the most prevailant HAC in solo PVP. Inevitably, some Vagabonds will die, but most just run away when they are outgunned. The only things able to catch them are usually Interceptors, and with the great range of Barrage the ability to maintain transversal by matching interceptor speeds, tackling frigates are popped within seconds. Even during dictor gate camps with minmatar recons, one can tell you a webbed Vagabond has enough momentum to easily travel the 12.5km back to the gate to jump safely through to the other side. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
FraXy Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:12:00 - [78] Originally by: Altai Saker So whats the dps of a vaga with 3 gyrostabs? and a Zealot with 3 HS? Think 2 gyrostabs with 22 dmg Barrage is 330 DPS with HAC 4, spec 4, rapid firing 5, surgical 4. I`ve spent 550 mill on my Vagabond alone and 530 mill in implants which is almost 1.1 bill investment in a single ship. With 1 local nanofiber i go 4300 m/s solo and 4550 or so in a gang with very little cap to work with (765). Now, spend 500 mill on implants for curse and with 4 medium nos u can suck like 100 cap/sec. Isn`t that overpowered? Or an Eagle able to tank 2000 DPS with crystal set. Isn`t that overpowered? A normal T2 Vagabond is so-so good. Kinda sluggish, but i`ve spent over 1 bill to make my Vagabond good. Put the same amount of ISK into a Zealot and it will also wtfpwn. This is my lazy attempt to make an uber-signature, please go away!
chingon Caldari Black Knight Buccaneers Center for Disease Creation	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:25:00 - [79] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Originally by: Quarantine Yes, snake+faction vagas are a little overpowered. A vanilla t2 vaga isn't however, so nerfing the vaga itself would be beside the point. QFT. If you spend 1 billion isk on fittings and implants, the vaga rules, as it should. As would most hacs with similar investments. Couldn't have said it better... everything fitted with faction and a sh*tload of implants rules,so we gonna nerf all ships that do so? Ö Sig By Liu Mang
Gort Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:27:00 - [80] I remember a couple of years ago when Minmatar ships were such crap that almost no one would touch them. The Phoon was an utter laughingstock; arty couldn't hit a fly, and if it did, it couldn't hurt it. The Stabber was (and is) paper thin. I won't mention the Bellicose, thank you. The only ships Matari with any goodness were thought to be Tempest, Rupture, and Rifter. And only the Rifter stood out as one of the best in class. Amarr and Caldari ruled heaven and earth. Now Marari have a mild rennaissance going on. Here come the cries of nerf the ships that are too fast. (Instead of looking at the pirate implants and speed mods themselves.) IMO, speed has been a useless advantage for Minmatar for darn near forever. Now that the speed differential finally is enough in some cases to actually provide a tactical element, people want to nerf it to oblivion? Of course they do. This is Eve, remember? Low-tech sig: "When in doubt, empty the magazine."
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:30:00 - [81] Originally by: Talo Momoe Originally by: Ruze It's the player that makes the ship. Don't change the ship to suit the lowest-common denomitator player. Classic nonsense from Vagabond apologists. The problem is that the lowest common denominator player is who is flying this ship. They fly it because it's the easiest ship to fly combat with. It takes very little skill to turn on an MWD and jet away from everyone when you get in a sticky situation. It takes very little skill to copy the same setup and implants as every other cookie cutter Vagabond pilot. Other ships require competent piloting and combat skills. This ship is like giving an Uzi to a fourth grader. The Vagabond is the zergling rush of Eve. Any punk can do it and win. Ahahahaha. You're a caldari. You have the nads to say that the vagabond is the easiest ship in the game to fly? You're out your ** mind son. Vagabond is not a very easy ship to fly, easy to get away sure. But what the hell does running away get you? Nothing much tbh. The easiest ships to fly are those noob ships called ravens/cerebus/caracals. Planning your angle of attack and knowing when to get out takes skills. Turning on your missle launchers/tank/ go afk while your target dies, does not take skill. Manlove by Zaphod Jones**
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:45:00 - [82] How can of damage does this ship even do, you can't have that good of tracking going at 7-8km/s so it must be missiles but all I see are two missile hard points.. someone please clue me in on how these things can do a lot of damage without slowing down
Ogdru Jahad Amarr	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:54:00 - [83] I had a zealot that could do 6.5kms so whats ya point? -
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:59:00 - [84] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 13/11/2006 22:03:25 The Vagabond is what eve was about, and what it actually should be: fast and furious gun blazing action. Thats why all the rich people fly them as "vacation ships". You can do amazing things with other ships (CNR, Rattlesnake, Vindicator, Machariel...) using officer fittings and pirate implants ... yet all of them are more of the same. The vagabond is something special ... Lets see what happens ... usually when CCP says nerf, they mess up and it ends up being boosted.
FraXy Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.13 22:04:00 - [85] Originally by: Vincent Almasy How can of damage does this ship even do, you can't have that good of tracking going at 7-8km/s so it must be missiles but all I see are two missile hard points.. someone please clue me in on how these things can do a lot of damage without slowing down Easy, u can`t. U work in falloff 99% of the time orbiting at high-speed meaning there is a lot of misses and often u don`t know if it`s the high-speed or the falloff that does it. Flying Vagabond is far from easy oppose to a Raven u do a F1-F6(F7, F8) and Alt+F1 to turn on XL and Alt+F2 to inject cap sticks. Ok, how about the Crow? 8000 m/s with 30km scramble range with missiles hitting to 60 or what not km with good skills able to wtfpwn ANY interceptor out there. If u spend the ISK needed for the equipment, implants and the risk of losing that in PvP then u deserve to enhance the performance of the ship in question. A Cerberus should fight off a Vagabond anytime of the week with ease. And people that say Nos has no effect. What a bunch of bull****. Nos stops u from scrambling (eventually) and u can`t boost the Mwd if it drains fast (ie. 1 neutralizer or several nos). If it were not from stabs i would have lost the Vagabond three times and my implants once the past month. Vagabond is one of the few ships that can roam solo with incredible efficiency and not get caught, but a good tanked Raven is still not to engage lightly. This is my lazy attempt to make an uber-signature, please go away!
Edhel Eternal Silence Ltd.	Posted - 2006.11.13 22:07:00 - [86] Edited by: Edhel on 13/11/2006 22:09:42 I think the problem is the implants rather than the vaga... 6-7km/sec is a bit off tbh. However the vaga IS supposed to be a hit'n run ship, why nerf it so it can't run? Also the Vagabond is very good solo or in small gangs but as soon as you have it in a larger gang it will get called primary (cuz it's killing all the support) and it does go down fast in such gangs. sure it takes 3x webs to slow down a snake-set vaga down to a managable speed but one without snake-set is much easier to kill. So i think the vagabond should remain as it is. and i'd like to add that those recon ships are a nice anti vagabond platform, huginn/rapier especially.
FraXy Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.13 22:14:00 - [87] Originally by: Edhel Edited by: Edhel on 13/11/2006 22:09:42 I think the problem is the implants rather than the vaga... 6-7km/sec is a bit off tbh. However the vaga IS supposed to be a hit'n run ship, why nerf it so it can't run? Also the Vagabond is very good solo or in small gangs but as soon as you have it in a larger gang it will get called primary (cuz it's killing all the support) and it does go down fast in such gangs. sure it takes 3x webs to slow down a snake-set vaga down to a managable speed but one without snake-set is much easier to kill. So i think the vagabond should remain as it is. and i'd like to add that those recon ships are a nice anti vagabond platform, huginn/rapier especially. I`ve seen and killed Kabalevsky (sp), some guy that roamed the north in march which had High-Grade Snakes. His Vagabond did 7000 m/s with a standard T2 Mwd, but he had 2.5 bill in implants which is fair imo. This is my lazy attempt to make an uber-signature, please go away!
Syracusa	Posted - 2006.11.13 22:24:00 - [88] Figures, speed as a racial trait sounds way cool until a ship actually turns out to be a competitor to the dps nber alles style of play
FraXy Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.13 23:24:00 - [89] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia The problem isn't that the Vaga has speed, the problem is that the Vaga has UTTERLY INSANE SPEED. It can outrun inties, which are smaller, and made to be the uber fast fighters in EVE. Unlike inties, the Vaga also has boosted resists. But oh no, it's not too buff. Ever fight a Vaga that fit a tank in those lows and not stabs? Without triple webbing it'll still get away, but after tanking you and dealing back damage. T2 vagabond with no nanos go maybe 3000 m/s which is about 1000 m/s less then a standard T2 Ceptor. I`ve spent 530 mill on implants to get my Vagabond pass the 4000 m/s mark. SPend the same on a Crow and u go 8000 m/s and can kill any Ceptor out there. And a Vaga with armortank is called Muninn. This is my lazy attempt to make an uber-signature, please go away!
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.11.13 23:42:00 - [90] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 13/11/2006 23:48:10 What whiners dont take into account, is that the 'broken' Vagabonds you are fighting are using setups that cost at least 500-700 mil plus the cost of the ship. When you spend 1 bil on a ship, you expect it to be good. Go spend 700mil on any HAC fitting and watch how much it owns. Edit: Actually, I missed out the cost of fitting LG or HG snakes on top of that, too. Man, this ship is overpowdered. Scrapheap Challenge Forums

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