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WCS nerf won't fix Vagabond imbalance

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Crellion Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.14 21:09:00 - [181] Originally by: Tasty Burger Do you think I give a **** who you are? All I know is you made a stupid post. Hmmm I think you insist for a reply. Ok My post was 100% the truth about what the problem is today and who caused it ... (many people but your other char and Sarmaul were star contrubutors). Your post was: "I cant say anything about the substance of what you are saying but need to discredit this so I say you are a noob and you die to minmatar ships a lot cause you dont know how to fly your ships" Apart from being devoid from arguments the post was also ridiculous cause of the funny nubiness allegations. If you want to say something liek that about somebody (and this forums should be about the arguments and not personal stuff but meh) at least go check some killboards. I do now and then so i would never say Tasty M. is a n00b. But I would have no problems saying he is an idiot just based on posts like this one above... (I am assuming you are his alt if not I appologise to that guy... and you remain an idiot with no main.) Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.11.14 21:18:00 - [182] No, I'm not Testy McTest. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
Crellion Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.14 21:20:00 - [183] Originally by: Tasty Burger No, I'm not Testy McTest. oh lol good for him Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Liisa Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.11.14 21:38:00 - [184] The problem is that instead of reducing the tank or the damage that the vagabond does, the devs are reducing the thing that makes the vagabond fun, its speed. They are attacking the ship, not the implants that make the ship quite overpowered. If speed is a problem, then with a lot of isk and hg snakes you can get a sleipnir to break 4km/s. Is this ship also broken? Perhaps the fitting should simply be made tighter on the vagabond. This would require either the damage or the tank to suffer, turning the ship even more into a walk on a tightrope than it is now. The reason why the vaga is hard to kill is because of the stabs. Will this still be so after the nerf? I am not so sure. There are too many vaga pilots who have lived so long due to their stabs. Those who fly without stabs normally run from most things or stay nicely at 15+km range in order to make sure that they do not get caught in a web. ----------------------------------
Crellion Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.14 21:43:00 - [185] Originally by: Liisa The problem is that instead of reducing the tank or the damage that the vagabond does, the devs are reducing the thing that makes the vagabond fun, its speed. They are attacking the ship, not the implants that make the ship quite overpowered. If speed is a problem, then with a lot of isk and hg snakes you can get a sleipnir to break 4km/s. Is this ship also broken? Perhaps the fitting should simply be made tighter on the vagabond. This would require either the damage or the tank to suffer, turning the ship even more into a walk on a tightrope than it is now. The reason why the vaga is hard to kill is because of the stabs. Will this still be so after the nerf? I am not so sure. There are too many vaga pilots who have lived so long due to their stabs. Those who fly without stabs normally run from most things or stay nicely at 15+km range in order to make sure that they do not get caught in a web. Its not the stabs Lisa. That was the 2005 fit. Today nanovaga > stabvaga. Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
FraXy Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.14 21:46:00 - [186] Edited by: FraXy on 14/11/2006 21:49:33 I think i posted a lenghty post regarding the Vagabond`s "tank". The only tank it got is the speed which makes the Vagabond, well, the speed makes the ship. Edit: Crellion, u can fit Mwd, 20k, Large Extender II and nanos along with Snake set on a Deimos. Which makes it fast. Do u want to nerf the NanoPhoon aswell? I mean, no BS can hit it orbiting at 3000 m/s with 4 heavy nos and 4 Siege. This is my lazy attempt to make an uber-signature, please go away!
haq aan	Posted - 2006.11.14 22:17:00 - [187] Originally by: Jim McGregor Dont worry. One of the devs said on EveTV this weekend that speedy ships are getting nerfed. He didnt say which ones, but it doesnt take a genius to guess the Vaga is amongst them. Its a shame, it was a really fun ship while it was allowed to be. i really couldnt imagine how greed and stupidity can advance that far..,untill i see this post. I am really sorry that devs of this game can be easily manipulated by theese kind of posts. To hell with Matari...who cares,..i already lost my last hope months ago. haq aan - Brutor Alektorophobia
Kery Syander Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2006.11.14 22:21:00 - [188] Originally by: Crellion Originally by: Tasty Burger Edited by: Tasty Burger on 14/11/2006 20:51:40 Originally by: Crellion Vagabond has to be nerfed and its the minnie whorum fores' fault. They have whined and whined till minnie ships virtually the same DPS as gallente or ammar and use no cap for their guns and now they are uber when used by people who know how to use their speed and agility. So now the devs will cut down on the agility and minmattars will cry... and they are right to cry. Their ships are supposed to be fast and agile and outmanoeuvre other races' ships... but guess what... they downplayed that factor in the DPS and tank discussions and got their way ... and now they ll pay by losing the best thing about their ship... What can I say? Serves you right gentlemen... Yeah... its all our fault. We're too good at killing all the idiots running around in ships they aren't ready to fly yet and they run to the forums asking for Vagabond nerfs. You really just don't know what you're whining about, do you? I assume you dont know me in game and will therefore not reply. So... Let's blame those people who have gone through the time and effort to create and analyze DPS graphs betweeen the various races? It's clearly people like Testy McTest and Jim McGregor who have FORCED the devs to cripple the Matari!?! All those calls for increased DPS have DOOMED us!!111 eleventy!!11one Oh noes! Maybe instead of saying they've "forced" the devs hand in nerfing the Vaga, perhaps you should show a little respect for their work and do your own **** research, since apparently we should all know who you are in game... I just hope that the devs are smart enough to ignore the idiots here who claim that the Vagabond is "overpowered". It's fast... so what? The stabber is fast, too... Let's nerf that, too! It loses a bonus to achieve that speed. Perhaps we could switch the speed bonus to a target painting bonus...
Kery Syander Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2006.11.14 22:25:00 - [189] oh, and FraXy I belive Pottsey changed the multiplier to about 2.5 recently. So the actual max recharge rate should be around 23.62 if I'm not mistaken. Still, nothing to write home about...
ITTigerClawIK Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.14 23:13:00 - [190] Just to bring a few people back down to earth.... d you people really think that if your at war with an entire corp people are gunna set up just for taeking out vagabonds... there are other ships so in most respects people cant afford to set up to take on one type of ship they have to be prepared for meny others as well... just nerfing the speed of the vagabond slightly so that 1 maybe 2 would be enough to bring it to a speed that we cna call "slow" would surfice but a cruiser shoudlnt go as fast or faster than an intercepter "An open mind is like a fortress with its gates un barred and ungarded" http://users.net4u.hr/~maza/gr/sigs/TigerClaw
FraXy Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.14 23:21:00 - [191] Originally by: Kery Syander oh, and FraXy I belive Pottsey changed the multiplier to about 2.5 recently. So the actual max recharge rate should be around 23.62 if I'm not mistaken. Still, nothing to write home about... Fully aware of that mate. I think i posted saying i used 2.25 multiplier as we all know a Kestrel can outdamage the tankable DPS meaning the tank fails so we get an average idea throughout an engagement. This is my lazy attempt to make an uber-signature, please go away!
Kery Syander Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2006.11.14 23:25:00 - [192] Originally by: ITTigerClawIK Just to bring a few people back down to earth.... d you people really think that if your at war with an entire corp people are gunna set up just for taeking out vagabonds... there are other ships so in most respects people cant afford to set up to take on one type of ship they have to be prepared for meny others as well... just nerfing the speed of the vagabond slightly so that 1 maybe 2 would be enough to bring it to a speed that we cna call "slow" would surfice but a cruiser shoudlnt go as fast or faster than an intercepter A stabber or even a vagabond does NOT go as fast as an interceptor!! The SHIP is NOT responsible for people going over 3-4km/s. Why do people not understand this? speedwise: inty > vaga Seriously guys, get a grip.
FraXy Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.14 23:26:00 - [193] Edited by: FraXy on 14/11/2006 23:27:34 Originally by: ITTigerClawIK Just to bring a few people back down to earth.... d you people really think that if your at war with an entire corp people are gunna set up just for taeking out vagabonds... there are other ships so in most respects people cant afford to set up to take on one type of ship they have to be prepared for meny others as well... just nerfing the speed of the vagabond slightly so that 1 maybe 2 would be enough to bring it to a speed that we cna call "slow" would surfice but a cruiser shoudlnt go as fast or faster than an intercepter T2 Vagabond without nanofiber go around 3000 m/s mark, Taranis can outrun that. Spend 1.1 billion fitting a Taranis and u will also go over 5000 m/s, only u would go closer to 8000-8500 m/s. Seriously, can we all stop this "u go faster then a ceptor bla bla bla". Spend the ISK i have done on a Velator and u will probably go faster then a T2 Taranis. NERF THE VELATOR!!! This is my lazy attempt to make an uber-signature, please go away!
Dirtball Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.14 23:31:00 - [194] I sense you like to fly slow pieces of garbage like bs and bcs. The best gang for gankage should have 2x as many intys as other ships, then a dic or two. Too many peeps have 15 bs and 1 inty so peeps jump in and say whoa whoa whoa huge gang... oh wait only one inty, jump in its safe to come thru.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.14 23:42:00 - [195] Originally by: Crellion Vagabond has to be nerfed and its the minnie whorum fores' fault. They have whined and whined till minnie ships virtually the same DPS as gallente or ammar and use no cap for their guns and now they are uber when used by people who know how to use their speed and agility. So now the devs will cut down on the agility and minmattars will cry... and they are right to cry. Their ships are supposed to be fast and agile and outmanoeuvre other races' ships... but guess what... they downplayed that factor in the DPS and tank discussions and got their way ... and now they ll pay by losing the best thing about their ship... What can I say? Serves you right gentlemen... Do you people even bother to check your "facts" before posting? Damage Comparison of HACs Vagabond doesn't come anywhere close to "virtually the same damage" as Gallente, and only outdamages the Zealot within 15km and tanks like crap compared to it.
Rogerano	Posted - 2006.11.15 00:24:00 - [196] Edited by: Rogerano on 15/11/2006 00:25:26 I have a dream! Imagine an EVE world where everything is balanced PERFECTLY. There is no "unfairness". I dare to dream, do you?! I have a dream: EVE:Podalations. Nerf everything. Just take ships away entirely and make everyone fly around in pods. That will solve all real or imagined "problems", including this woe-is-me Vagabond "problem". Yes. I am Rogerano Luther King and I dare to dream of a fair EVE. Nerf it all... Whingers, forums, ships, and modules. It's a fire-sale and everything must go. Note: This post makes more sense than the OP.
Wat0721 GalacTECH Unlimited	Posted - 2006.11.15 00:59:00 - [197] Originally by: ITTigerClawIK ... but a cruiser shoudlnt go as fast or faster than an intercepter What about a battleship? Get a faction MWD on a nanophoon or nanodomi and snakes and you, too, can go faster than inties with no speed mods or investment in their own speed. Nerf speed. --- ECM Fix <--still stands, post-nerf.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.11.15 01:43:00 - [198] Originally by: Rogerano Edited by: Rogerano on 15/11/2006 00:25:26 I have a dream! Imagine an EVE world where everything is balanced PERFECTLY. There is no "unfairness". I dare to dream, do you?! I have a dream: EVE:Podalations. Nerf everything. Just take ships away entirely and make everyone fly around in pods. That will solve all real or imagined "problems", including this woe-is-me Vagabond "problem". Yes. I am Rogerano Luther King and I dare to dream of a fair EVE. Nerf it all... Whingers, forums, ships, and modules. It's a fire-sale and everything must go. Note: This post makes more sense than the OP. No fair. minmatar pods go faster then gallente pods, nerf minmatar pods. jk but do you dought this would happen but also "I demand t2 pods"
Gregor Eisenh0rn	Posted - 2006.11.15 15:16:00 - [199] Originally by: Ruze The Vagabond is not overpowered. It DOES have weaknesses, pretty viable ones, too. For example, get a hit on the d-mned thing and it's done for. Yes i'll get a hit on it with my lasers. now lets see with a standard EM resist of 92.5% yes its done for..... And yes i realise its designed to counter Amarr guns but jesus dosen't have resists that high as standard. The zealot for instance that is specify designed to kill mimitar can only reach 600-700 without killing the rest of your setup and when it gets there most of its damage is absorbed by the resists anyway. The things are to **** fast any other HAC jumping in on a fleet would be screwed the vaga can simply run out of range, and although this is its playing style it needs tuning down and despite what ppl have said they can tank enough to survive a fight.
Akiman	Posted - 2006.11.15 15:47:00 - [200] its vulnerable? not good dps? youre talking about a frigate? imicus maybe?no wait its a vigil...
Akiman	Posted - 2006.11.15 16:08:00 - [201] still i dont want ANY ship getting nerfed ...it feels like getting your face changed...now tier III bs and t II bc's gonna came and then they will getting nerf \ boost again :P and imo vaga's has a high price couse they generally dont die... and dont talk like every vaga pilot has a snake set... ship is fast, got it? and yea she doesnt punch like a deimos but do you see anybody piloting deimosses around? no? got it? and she's cheaper!?! vaga is not an i-win button but I-RUN button its ccp's fault to give such a ship...now let them enjoy it...STOP nerfing everything AAHHHH!!!
turnschuh Eye of God	Posted - 2006.11.15 16:23:00 - [202] this thread makes me wanna cry vagabond is fine, if you manage to kill one be happy about 300mil loot and be quite. whats next, crying about ceptors because they go over 10kms with faction/implants?
Fredbob 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.15 16:27:00 - [203] Originally by: turnschuh whats next, crying about ceptors because they go over 10kms with faction/implants? Wait, ceptors with 1bil implants go faster than my vagabond? NERF! ___________ ~Fredbob~
Kery Syander Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2006.11.15 16:46:00 - [204] Originally by: Gregor Eisen*n Originally by: Ruze The Vagabond is not overpowered. It DOES have weaknesses, pretty viable ones, too. For example, get a hit on the d-mned thing and it's done for. Yes i'll get a hit on it with my lasers. now lets see with a standard EM resist of 92.5% yes its done for..... And yes i realise its designed to counter Amarr guns but jesus dosen't have resists that high as standard. The zealot for instance that is specify designed to kill mimitar can only reach 600-700 without killing the rest of your setup and when it gets there most of its damage is absorbed by the resists anyway. The things are to **** fast any other HAC jumping in on a fleet would be screwed the vaga can simply run out of range, and although this is its playing style it needs tuning down and despite what ppl have said they can tank enough to survive a fight. Seriously dude, get a grip! I thought about responding to this statement, but it's just not worth it...
Yuki Li Caldari Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2006.11.15 17:00:00 - [205] This has to be the single most pathetic nerf threads yet.. There's nothing wrong with Vagabonds at all. Next you'll be saying Stabbers are overpowered because they can hit 3k/s and run away quick too. If you want a fly a ship that can't hit outside of 10km, and thus, will not hit a Vagabond pilot while he laughs at you from 15k, going 4k/s, then that's the disadvantage of your ship choice. If you want a fly a ship that uses lasers, and thus, will do jack to a Minmatar HAC, just like a Minmatar HAC will do jack to you, then that's the disadvantage (and advantage) of your ship choice. Vagabonds are designed to hit and run. That's their purpose. You're complaining because a ship achieves what it was designed to achieve. That's alltogether flat out moronic. If i were to get in a Vagabond and go hunting, and discover a Cerberus, that promptly smacked the hell out of me with Scourge Furies and had me run away like a little girl, i wouldn't come here crying because the Cerberus can hit beyond 10km, and i can't tank damage that can. That's the disadvantage of my ship. Hell, i fooled around with a Cerb on sisi (without faction gear) and engaged a Deimos and a Vagabond at the same time... Deimos down, Vagabond ran away. This tells me the Cerberus is a much stronger ship. (And the price is about the same as a Vaga, neh?) So it ran away, boohoo. Interceptors can do that too, i suppose they're also overpowered because they go fast? Quote: and they tank and shoot nearly as well as any other heavy assault cruiser. This one quote pretty much sums up your thread as complete trash, you're posting because you don't know how to deal with Vagabonds. If you have an entire fleet, and don't have a single Huginn or Rapier, then that's your problem, not the Vagabonds. (and if you can't hit a cruiser with shield extenders and an mwd then...) Website / Recruiting
Crellion Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.15 17:28:00 - [206] Originally by: Kery Syander Originally by: Crellion Originally by: Tasty Burger Edited by: Tasty Burger on 14/11/2006 20:51:40 Originally by: Crellion Vagabond has to be nerfed and its the minnie whorum fores' fault. They have whined and whined till minnie ships virtually the same DPS as gallente or ammar and use no cap for their guns and now they are uber when used by people who know how to use their speed and agility. So now the devs will cut down on the agility and minmattars will cry... and they are right to cry. Their ships are supposed to be fast and agile and outmanoeuvre other races' ships... but guess what... they downplayed that factor in the DPS and tank discussions and got their way ... and now they ll pay by losing the best thing about their ship... What can I say? Serves you right gentlemen... Yeah... its all our fault. We're too good at killing all the idiots running around in ships they aren't ready to fly yet and they run to the forums asking for Vagabond nerfs. You really just don't know what you're whining about, do you? I assume you dont know me in game and will therefore not reply. So... Let's blame those people who have gone through the time and effort to create and analyze DPS graphs betweeen the various races? It's clearly people like Testy McTest and Jim McGregor who have FORCED the devs to cripple the Matari!?! All those calls for increased DPS have DOOMED us!!111 eleventy!!11one Oh noes! Maybe instead of saying they've "forced" the devs hand in nerfing the Vaga, perhaps you should show a little respect for their work and do your own **** research, since apparently we should all know who you are in game... I just hope that the devs are smart enough to ignore the idiots here who claim that the Vagabond is "overpowered". It's fast... so what? The stabber is fast, too... Let's nerf that, too! It loses a bonus to achieve that speed. Perhaps we could switch the speed bonus to a target painting bonus... Every single reply you have here relies to misinterpretation and oversimplification of the argument you reply to to the extent of making your post worthless. Examples: - Yes its fats and I have no problem with that. the problem is chronic intentional downplaying of the measure of that advantage to calculate the relative measure of the disadvantages in DPS and tank it should suffer. The result is an imbalanced ship. In todays climate of homogenising all ships and races what do you thing the nerfbat will hit: DPS as it should or speed as it will... - No nobody needs to know me in game of course, unless if they make a case that I have the views I post here merely because I lose my ships all the time to minnie ships etc cause I dont know how to fit them etc. Now all this you could have read clearly in the initial posts and I didnt need to clarify here... I dont want to attribute you with lack of intellect.. what then? Lack of objectivity? who knows... Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Crellion Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.15 17:47:00 - [207] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Crellion Vagabond has to be nerfed and its the minnie whorum fores' fault. They have whined and whined till minnie ships virtually the same DPS as gallente or ammar and use no cap for their guns and now they are uber when used by people who know how to use their speed and agility. So now the devs will cut down on the agility and minmattars will cry... and they are right to cry. Their ships are supposed to be fast and agile and outmanoeuvre other races' ships... but guess what... they downplayed that factor in the DPS and tank discussions and got their way ... and now they ll pay by losing the best thing about their ship... What can I say? Serves you right gentlemen... Do you people even bother to check your "facts" before posting? Damage Comparison of HACs Vagabond doesn't come anywhere close to "virtually the same damage" as Gallente, and only outdamages the Zealot within 15km and tanks like crap compared to it. Hehe... first read the post you reply too: it says minnie ships nad not minnie HACs or Vagabond. Second assuming your graphs are right (I have no reason not to) I find it plain ridiculous that the Vaga has more DPS than a Zealot or a Cerb, I main plain WRONG. Its like having an inty with 1000 armour hp (TQ) and top speed of 3000 do 100 DPS and an inty with 500 armror hp (tq) and top speed of 10000 do 150 DPS ... I think you should hide that chart at the back of yoour closet... Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Ione Hunt Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.15 18:13:00 - [208] Adapt or die! Killing a Vaga isn't that hard, it just requires a bit more skills/tactics than roasting a Deimos. o/ FraXy ________________________________________________
Kery Syander Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2006.11.15 18:39:00 - [209] Quote: Every single reply you have here relies to misinterpretation and oversimplification of the argument you reply to to the extent of making your post worthless. Examples: - Yes its fats and I have no problem with that. the problem is chronic intentional downplaying of the measure of that advantage to calculate the relative measure of the disadvantages in DPS and tank it should suffer. The result is an imbalanced ship. In todays climate of homogenising all ships and races what do you thing the nerfbat will hit: DPS as it should or speed as it will... - No nobody needs to know me in game of course, unless if they make a case that I have the views I post here merely because I lose my ships all the time to minnie ships etc cause I dont know how to fit them etc. Now all this you could have read clearly in the initial posts and I didnt need to clarify here... I dont want to attribute you with lack of intellect.. what then? Lack of objectivity? who knows... Lack of... Patience with threads like this where people display how little they understand the basic principles of EVE (not you here, but plenty of idiots are posting "the vaga is faster than my inty!! nerf it!"). I don't think that Testy McTest or any of your typical Minmatar forum *****s would tell you that they want to see Minmatar DPS equal to the other races. They are trying to achieve BALANCE. Granted, it's quite difficult to get real balance when you want to preserve racial differences, but I think reasonable people recognize that Minmatar DPS shouldn't be extremly high. You seem to think that the vaga needs nerfing, but I don't see WHY. Your typical non-snaked vaga is going to be doing 500m/s max while trying to stay out of web range, no? Is that just too fast? Comparing it's tank to that of the other HACs, that seems reasonable to me.
Spaced Skunk Yesodic Nomads Corp	Posted - 2006.11.15 18:45:00 - [210] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 14/11/2006 14:27:37 Originally by: Quarantine If you look at the ships a vaga can take on reliably 1on1 (as in odds in favor of the vaga), you'll end up with a very small list of targets of the same size or above. The only drone boat the vaga will have problems in kali with is the dominix due to heavy nos, vs all others he can outfly the heavies, pop the meds and stay out of med nos range. ECM won't be a viaable option on them anymore. Originally by: Jim McGregor Yeah, thats a good point. But 500m is probably TOO close for it to hit anything.. It will hit stuff just as fine as with the 5 km orbit. As said, identical transversal. This also goes for the vagas weapons. I've been on the test server, ECM is still viable, and very muched used on Dominix.

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