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WCS nerf won't fix Vagabond imbalance

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Ruze No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.13 14:25:00 - [31] I really hate to call someone's card, but this whole post is utter bullsh-t. I mean, being an armed carebear and all who's never personally flown a vega, I can't agree with any of the arguments against it. It's speed, though intense, IS NOT OVERPOWERING. I personally feel that all minmatar ships should have that kind of speed and agility. When I say that the player makes the ship, I mean that it's the player who puts it to best use as the ship is intended. A good player knows his ship and his own playstyle, and matches it best. A good player makes any ship seem uber (Condor, anyone?). And, in effect, a good player doesn't come to the forums to post how great his ship is, because he's too busy using it. A poor player, on the other hand, deosn't know exactly how to use his ship, and often dies in it. They haven't found their playstyle, and haven't matched it with a ship. A poor player constantly complains about his equipment, and can make any ship or race seem underpowered. Most notably, a poor player constantly comes to the forums to post about how sh-tty this or that ship is. What are you? To kill a Vega, change your tactics to suit. If you would rather just have them nerfed because you don't want to change how YOU play to address the vega pilots, that's because your a poor player. Good luck. I hope the ops idiotic mindset doesn't ruin another good ship. Genesis Project
Saerid Amarr FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.13 14:29:00 - [32] Edited by: Saerid on 13/11/2006 14:30:05 Vagabonds are going to be funny as hell if you replace those warp core stabs with the current sisi model inertia stabilizers. A regular zealot in combat fit does 4 km/s with 2 of those and speed rigs (T2 MWD). Up from,what, 1900? Should put vagabond in the 7km/s range and give it enough acceleration to hit it in 2 seconds and align & accelerate into warp in < 1. Especially that acceleration will be a problem given lock times didn't drop. Granted, it's got more to do with the inertia stabs, but even then the biggest beneficiary will be the vagabond.
Redbad Minmatar Gingerbread Reapers Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.13 14:30:00 - [33] And still I see Vagabonds on a multitude of killboards out there, perhaps you should ask those players how they managed to kill it. There is a way, so it seems.
Talo Momoe Caldari Messerschmitt Shipyards The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.11.13 14:32:00 - [34] Originally by: Laboratus IMHO. The vaga is ok in 1vs1 and small gangs, but starts to suffer a lot when more ppl join in the fight. It is good in one small aspect of the game, but not uber or even good in all of them, so IMHO, it is ok. Okay, but the majority of the game is 1v1 or small gang combat. A Vagabond can fly around 0.0 escaping any pursuit or gate camps, and just has to run around until he finds easy targets and then can pick them off at will. These things are extremely difficult to trap. Yes, it can be done in theory. Actually making it happen is a very different story. You put two Vagabonds in the same region, and you might as well log off if you were thinking about doing any ratting or mining. They'll be there as long as they please.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.13 14:34:00 - [35] I can understand that players get really angry when they face the Vaga and lose. There they are with twice the dps and twice the tank, but still cant kill that fast ship. The problem is snake implants in my opinion. But the devs stated on EveTV that they are going to nerf some fast ships (didnt say which ones), so im glad i sold the Vaga before. Im standing by to see what happens. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Talo Momoe Caldari Messerschmitt Shipyards The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.11.13 14:37:00 - [36] Originally by: Ruze It's speed, though intense, IS NOT OVERPOWERING. What part of 7+ km/s isn't overpowering? Originally by: Ruze To kill a Vega, change your tactics to suit. If you would rather just have them nerfed because you don't want to change how YOU play to address the vega pilots, that's because your a poor player. Why do you assume I don't know how to play this game? Why do you assume I don't adjust my tactics? Pardon me, but when you live in 0.0 and have to defend it from marauding Vagabonds, then you can try to have a point to make. Until then, you literally don't know what you're talking about.
Talo Momoe Caldari Messerschmitt Shipyards The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.11.13 14:38:00 - [37] Originally by: Redbad And still I see Vagabonds on a multitude of killboards out there, perhaps you should ask those players how they managed to kill it. There is a way, so it seems. Of course. All ships get killed. People take risks and lose, or bad pilots get in good ships. But go run the numbers on ships killed by Vagabonds compared to Vagabonds killed by other ships.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.11.13 14:44:00 - [38] Heh, I assume this thread is about a corpmate :D (and his max speed was 'only' 6.8km/s or something as he wasn't in a gang) I laughed pretty hard when he proceeded to kill some of your blob, but tbh it's not balanced :/ Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
DarkElf Caldari Euphoria Released	Posted - 2006.11.13 14:45:00 - [39] Originally by: Laboratus Originally by: DarkElf That's complete rubbish. 1 web = 90% speed reduction. most vagas do about 4km on average so that makes them go 400m/s. even if they are going at 6km which is easily possible but not common, 1 web = 600m/s so a thorax can easily overtake it. You do know that max speed determines the maximum acceleration a ship can achieve right? Therefore tripple webbing a ship going 6km/s will take forever to stop, especially as the mwd increases it's mass so much the pure inertia will carry it out of web range (faction and special ships excluded ofc). Been there done that, lost my domi, so to say... i think ur agreeing with me without realising. my point is that it is rubbish that u need 3 webs to kill a vaga. as ur saying 3 webs won't slow it down much quicker than 1 and 1 will bring it down to a sensible speed to keep up with. the point is being different and having different strengths to other hacs doesn't make it imbalanced, just different DE
Vim Spiritus Draconis	Posted - 2006.11.13 14:47:00 - [40] Edited by: Vim on 13/11/2006 14:47:12 Once again the followers of "Do or Die" raise their heads and voices. There is nothing wrong with getting away after engaging in a fight, its called tactical retreat or simply a withdrawal. I'am sad for thoose who fail to realize getting an enemy to withdraw can be just as valuable as destroying him. And now it comes: He can get in, clobber several of our small ships and get away! Thats imba he should be dead! I fail to see a successfull hit & run performed by a billion isk setup on the ship meant to be used to hit & run as something bad? /V /* Teach a rookie today watch him takedown a battleship tomorrow... */
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.13 14:49:00 - [41] agreed i have a really nicely fitted vagabond i refuse to fly because its just too easy.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.13 14:52:00 - [42] Originally by: Kaeten It's not uber when you can't be caught and can escape in nearly every situation? So you NEED implants for the ship ot work? Why do all my friends paly aobut with it then? Anyway apart from that remark your psot made most sense by far atm. If they don't have implants they are not going 6-7km/s. To do that you need BOTH snake implants AND nanofibers in low. If you get a snake set and fill nanofibers in low you can get any ship (including BS, just take a look at the nanophoon) to go fast and turn fast. Yes they will not be as fast as the vaga (as the vaga is wasting one of it's ship bonuses on speed) but it will be fast enough to do almost anything a vaga can do today.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Boryokudan Incorporated	Posted - 2006.11.13 14:53:00 - [43] Originally by: Laboratus Originally by: Jim McGregor Dont worry. One of the devs said on EveTV this weekend that speedy ships are getting nerfed. He didnt say which ones, but it doesnt take a genius to guess the Vaga is amongst them. Its a shame, it was a really fun ship while it was allowed to be. Agreed Crap. --------- Boryokudan Recruitment. Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Mudkest	Posted - 2006.11.13 14:57:00 - [44] Originally by: Talo Momoe Even with no stabs equipped, it takes a few seconds at most, and usually not even that long, for them to fly out of range of warp disruptors, even when webbed two or three times, and then they can run away anyway. More significantly, because they're basically the fastest ship in the game, they can pick their angle of attack, and when and how they fight. Basically, they can pick every battle, they can get out of it whenever they choose, used quickfit for the numbers, so might be a bit off, but not much. Vagabond with tII 10Mn MWD and lows filled with type-D nanofibred, lvl 5 navigation, acceleration control, highspeed manouvring and cap skills. starting with 100% cap it can run the mwd for 90 seconds. Speed will be 3844 ms. Fit in 3% speed implant and lets call it 4000m/s speed(no gang assist cause theye are OMGWTFSOLOPWNMOBILESBBQNOOBSHIPS remember?). with 1 t1 web it'll go 1000m/s, with 1 250(combined with bs sig radius from mwd) want it to go faster? plug in snake set and/or use faction modules. cruise and heavy missiles have a base speed of 3750. lvl4 missile projection and theye go 5250, faster then the vagabond. If you want to use torpedos against an unwebbed vaga, you're a fool and deserve to die. the whole "dicdate your angle of attack and choose if you attack or not" is minmatar philosphy and vaga and jaguar are pretty much the only ships that follow that reasoning. don't know why I bother with this though, seeing your caldari(and probably want tier3 bs a missileboat right?) you probably reject any reasoning and subtitute with your own fantasy - When talking about the itsy bitsy spider, try not to start with itchy, you'll get the second part wrong as well
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.11.13 14:59:00 - [45] as for the 3 webbers needed it's not true, you only need 2 fleet aka 99% web or you could try faction, i heard from reach out to 15-20k. can anyone tell me the kind of dps those turbo vega can do and their equipment aswell. Normally if you accel in speed your endurance aswell as your dsp shrinks, as it would only be the dps of two missile hard points. I surprised anyone has the gall yo complain about these when there are similar cldary ships but with full missile racks and missile boosts. Minmatar are about to get a bit of a nurf in kali as is, let them atleast have one star, each of the other races have their own star as well don't forget.
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.13 15:03:00 - [46] Originally by: Ruze I really hate to call someone's card, but this whole post is utter bullsh-t.-quote It's speed, though intense, IS NOT OVERPOWERING. I personally feel that all minmatar ships should have that kind of speed and agility. A good player knows his ship and his own playstyle, and matches it best. A good player makes any ship seem uber (Condor, anyone?). And, in effect, a good player doesn't come to the forums to post how great his ship is, because he's too busy using it. Most notably, a poor player constantly comes to the forums to post about how sh-tty this or that ship is. What are you? To kill a Vega, change your tactics to suit. If you would rather just have them nerfed because you don't want to change how YOU play to address the vega pilots, that's because your a poor player. Good luck. I hope the ops idiotic mindset doesn't ruin another good ship. 1. the ops original post isnt bull**** and frankly your response is insulting and ignorant. the op is a well known player who knows what hes talking about. 2.The vagabonds speed is too fast by any yardstick. especially relative to interceptors and other cruisers. yes minnie ships should be fast but thats too fast. when an inty cant catch a cruiser something is very wrong. 3.Any player makes the vaga seem uber because the vaga is uber and makes mediocre players look good - do well. thats why every muppet flies one. 4.poor players complain about ships.....wtf are you on about. 5. hes a poor player as he cant catch a vaga. have you ever tried. no i didnt think so. when a ship requires either a faction web or specialised ship to catch it, then somethings wrong - or unbalanced.
Twin blade	Posted - 2006.11.13 15:07:00 - [47] Bah another silly player who got got by some guy in a vaga if your not willing to get owned stay in high sec where the mean old vaga can't kill you.
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.11.13 15:26:00 - [48] First of all, interceptors can easily outrun Vagabonds. The problem is that most ceptor pilots aren't willing to run around with multiple billion ISK setups, while some Vagabond pilots are (HG Snakes, Domi MWD, Domi Nanos). Secondly, the Huginn/Rapiers were designed to keep fast ships still. That can mean any ship going fast, not just the Vagabond. Nanodomi? Nanophoon? Macherial? Crow? All get put firmly in their place by the Minmatar Recons. The majority of this game isn't balanced around solo PVP. If you fail to bring the wrong tools with you to fend of an enemy threat then you need to change, not the ship. I can think of a good 10 ships in the game that should be nerfed as "they are very hard to kill in a PVP situation" but I don't believe they should be. Let the skirmish ships do their job properly, and use your brains to work out how to counter them. I remember a pilot coming on here saying that his low SP corp was being harrassed by high-SP pilots in Crows who were moving to fast to stop them. Do you know what they did? They just kept their ships far apart and webbed them all by baiting them into the middle of the group. Tactics > SP. Tactics > Moaning. When a large group of Vagabonds can kill off any mixed group you can think of, then it needs a nerf. _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Mallick Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.13 15:31:00 - [49] Originally by: Haggis Maker Originally by: Mallick Originally by: Haggis Maker So you want to kill the only plus point a Vaga has??? Compared to most Hac's it has a poor tank, poor damage and now you want to do away with its speed. You are aware you are going to be flamed to hell and back. Are you telling me it is impossible to kill a vaga? If so then 200mil is bloody cheap. If you want change, you are going to have to post something a bit more concrete than your only reason being you cannot kill it. You need to get within 10km of a Vagabond, and have at least 3 webifiers to stop it. Now fitting 3 webifiers pretty much gimps your setup, and to get in range of the Vagabond is a totally different story. The Vagabond can orbit at 15km EASILY and just MWD away whenever it feels like. BALANCED FOR SURE! You are perfectly correct. I must have imagined all the vaga killmails I have been on as by your masterful bit of logic it is IMPOSSIBLE to kill. Hey Alt! Pics or stfu! Support POS Overhaul - Read it NOW!
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.11.13 15:40:00 - [50] vega = scarry nanophoon = scarrier
dabster Minmatar Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.13 15:46:00 - [51] This thread is so stupid. Even worse, the exact same thread has popped up probably 5 times the past 6 months. ___________________________ Brutors Rule! My Eve-vids; Click.
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.11.13 15:47:00 - [52] Originally by: Old Geeza Tactics > SP. Tactics > Moaning. When a large group of Vagabonds can kill off any mixed group you can think of, then it needs a nerf. IF you could get a decent gang of f agabonds together, they would toast any others, or get away with little or no losses ... that is a certainty ... but we all know that at heart, f agabond pilots are just looking for easy kills and dont want them nerfed because then they would have to go back to shooting shuttles in 0.4 systems As for: but the webbing and warp disrupting force recons can easily stop them ... how often do you see one of those exactly?
Lt Chang	Posted - 2006.11.13 15:52:00 - [53] vagabonds are easy to kill I dont see what the problem is... you only need two things 1) inventive thinking 2) team work I undertsand that people get frustrated because they get the beat down on a regular basis but if you take away all the challenging ships whats the point in playing???
Fredbob 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.13 16:16:00 - [54] Originally by: Iteken Hotori Lucky it's a minnie ship therefore needs to be nerfed if it's good at soemthing. I presume it'd be fine if it was Caldari or Gallente,a s they are supposed to be solo-uber-pwners ? One single ship, one extremely expensive ship that takes time and effort to get into and working right for you, perfectly fills the Minmatar design philosophy... And you want it nerfed, because of that...... No. QFT. Why can minnie not have a ship that's effective at doing something? Especially that of hit & run, our supposed racial advantage. One of the true minnie ships (i.e. it has a velocity bonus, missing from 90% of our "speedy ships") the vagabond is fun to fly, and if CCP come down on fast ships hard as they say... it's detrimental to that fun and kittens will die Sure with snakes it's almost overpowered, but a huginn/rapier can stop it dead in it's tracks - a 300mil ship with 700mil implants dead in the water from a single recon.. Vaga without it's velocity high is a useless ship that dies in seconds to any small gang. Learn to handle them and accept that not all ships are tank&gank. Variety is GOOD, it's nice to have speed as an advantage instead of theoretical "dps"/resistances and I like the fact that a ship not based on nos&drones is popular in the PvP world. ___________ ~Fredbob~
Kanthras	Posted - 2006.11.13 16:33:00 - [55] Originally by: Fredbob QFT. Why can minnie not have a ship that's effective at doing something? Especially that of hit & run, our supposed racial advantage. One of the true minnie ships (i.e. it has a velocity bonus, missing from 90% of our "speedy ships") the vagabond is fun to fly, and if CCP come down on fast ships hard as they say... it's detrimental to that fun and kittens will die Sure with snakes it's almost overpowered, but a huginn/rapier can stop it dead in it's tracks - a 300mil ship with 700mil implants dead in the water from a single recon.. Vaga without it's velocity high is a useless ship that dies in seconds to any small gang. Learn to handle them and accept that not all ships are tank&gank. Variety is GOOD, it's nice to have speed as an advantage instead of theoretical "dps"/resistances and I like the fact that a ship not based on nos&drones is popular in the PvP world. I 100% agree with you. Please please don't nerf speedy ships. They're very fun to fly.
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.11.13 16:46:00 - [56] Originally by: Kanthras ..... Please please don't nerf speedy ships. They're very fun to fly. Theres speedy and there's F agabonds ... they are wayyy too fast and stand little chance of getting popped ... 4km/s for anything other than an interceptor is too **** fast (taking in implants/gang bonuses), they just have to avoid missle users (and the very rare webbing/warp scrambling recons they come accross) and they can kill anything... And Sabres need a smack from the nerf bat as well
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.11.13 16:47:00 - [57] What is the over powered set up lets look at the equipment befor nurfing a ship. What is all used, what type of skills aswell are used, will someone list everything aswell as a standard eve price for each unit.
Shirazz	Posted - 2006.11.13 16:53:00 - [58] The vaga should NOT be nerfed. Just because some gimp can kill everything else in his pwnmobile of a domi and cant kill a vaga isnt a reason to complain, its a reason to be laughed at. I have poped one of those things in an arbi with 2 webs, they have NO tank when webbed. Oh and who said nossing ecming and droneing some poor guy to death required any more skill?
Iteken Hotori Minmatar GTE Corp	Posted - 2006.11.13 16:54:00 - [59] Originally by: Fredbob Sure with snakes it's almost overpowered..... i guess this is the problem. If you spend what, 600mil-1bil on implants, a fast ship gets silly. "I'm sorry, but that's completely out of order, the Ship should be nerfed....." Anyway, i'll let you know in March when i can fly one, if they still move by then. Warning: May contain flaming, trolling, swearing, typos, crimes against grammar, obscure reference to old films, in jokes, rambling, ranting and references to EvE.
Super frenchy Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.11.13 16:55:00 - [60] Want to kill a vaga solo ( well past kali at least with the wcs nerf ) ? Put 2 neutralyser , a mwd and a web on any bs, wait for him to orbit you, put on the neutra mwd toward him then web him when in range ==> vaga toast Not very difficult... You can also use faction web ( well a vaga cost 200+ itself , even a domination webber cost less than that and make a vaga very easy to kill with any bc/has/cs/bs or even goot kitted T1 cruiser

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