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Sovereign533 Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.11.16 02:07:00 - [91] come on... low sec isn't safe... and isn't supposed to be safe... wanna go there, live with it... don't like what might happen, stay in empire... Originally by: Sovereign533 Time will tell, sooner or later, time will tell... Second sig removed, only 1 signature graphic please - Xorus ^_^WOOHOO!!! my Sig finally got nerfed...
goodby4u	Posted - 2006.11.16 02:21:00 - [92] Keep in mind im no pirate,i pvp in 0.0 sometimes but never in just lowsec...I live in highsec too. That being said i like what they are doing to WCS,i mean if you wanna fight dont fight and run whenever anybody comes near you. Oh and grey,mission running in lowsec will now mean you have a risk of dying,you had a risk before but the solo pirates couldnt kill you,now somebody has a fair chance at killing you and your mad about it?If the ability to be completely safe is what you seek then theres a highsec for a reason.
Dark Kavar	Posted - 2006.11.16 03:00:00 - [93] I don't mind at all that wcs are getting nerfed, never use them anyway. I actually enjoy the risk that comes from low sec, otherwise it gets boring. And if you actually pay attention in local and be a bit cautious you will usually never get ganked, I actually managed to mine by myself in a retriever with no wcs in low sec for a couple of weeks without getting ganked. So don't whine that you have to put in some effort
Naal Morno ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.16 03:10:00 - [94] Originally by: Krulla Originally by: Grey Area Edited by: Grey Area on 15/11/2006 19:31:06 You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? In fact, it's going to worsen the lag problem in Empire...people will move away from agents who even MIGHT send them below 0.5...bye bye Vuorassi...hello Motsu. ... Grow some balls tbfh? I do level 4 missions in lowsec. Not only do I do them in lowsec, I do them in Amamake. For those who don't know Amamake, it's basically the most pirate infested system in the game. Doing missions in lowsec is almost completely safe, as long as you have a brain and know how to use it. WEll, brain has nothing to do with it...a broken scan probe system however does a lot. In Kali1 the probe system is much improved and I think you will find yourself in pod a lot if you keep doing things the same you were to date... _________________________________________ Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous.
Rockbox Amarr Veto.	Posted - 2006.11.16 04:18:00 - [95] Originally by: Grey Area Edited by: Grey Area on 15/11/2006 19:31:06 You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? In fact, it's going to worsen the lag problem in Empire...people will move away from agents who even MIGHT send them below 0.5...bye bye Vuorassi...hello Motsu. Why would you put wcs on a mission running ship Visit us at VETO FORUMS!!1!
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 04:46:00 - [96] Originally by: Rockbox Originally by: Grey Area Edited by: Grey Area on 15/11/2006 19:31:06 You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? In fact, it's going to worsen the lag problem in Empire...people will move away from agents who even MIGHT send them below 0.5...bye bye Vuorassi...hello Motsu. Why would you put wcs on a mission running ship So you didn't have to fight PCs. Why else? If other PCs didn't jump mission runners while they were doing their missions no mission runner would want to mount them. --------------------------------------------------- MMORPG == Massively Moronic Online Raw Powergaming Grief fests.... Play something different: EvE LowSec != NoSec
Perani	Posted - 2006.11.16 05:49:00 - [97] There are two issues that were either directly addressed or indirectly alluded to that have since faded into the background a few pages ago. (1) Why should ships be allowed to fit scramblers without penalty? (2) Why does watching local have to be part of anyone's pvp experience? Local is a chatting tool abused as a source of intelligence. Or am I mistaken, that local is meant to be the intelligence tool that it is today?
Elderberry Whine	Posted - 2006.11.16 05:50:00 - [98] The point is that he ain't coming to low sec for a gank, He's coming cause he supposed to be "forced" there for the so-called high rewards of low-sec hunting. Well, if the rewards was so great, he would go there without WCS's As it is, Since Low-Sec is crap, with hordes of pirates waiting to pick ya clean, why would he go ther without stabs? So he won't go, and low-sec will be even more empty. Pirates have the advantage in low-sec because they don't care about their empire standing so they lock u up and get the jump on ya. So there's no reason for a carebear to go in low sec now, since he can't stab out of the stacked deck setup for the pirates. If he could engage fairly without a security hit, then yeh, why would he need a stab? So the stab gives him a fair out of the situation. Otherwise, he gets toasted because he's already in lag, and behind in damage. You pierates all know that so you want stabs out. Will you got ur wish, after a few easy kills, no empire carebear is gonna be stupid enough to come back low-sec after the stabs are gone. Originally by: goodby4u Keep in mind im no pirate,i pvp in 0.0 sometimes but never in just lowsec...I live in highsec too. That being said i like what they are doing to WCS,i mean if you wanna fight dont fight and run whenever anybody comes near you. Oh and grey,mission running in lowsec will now mean you have a risk of dying,you had a risk before but the solo pirates couldnt kill you,now somebody has a fair chance at killing you and your mad about it?If the ability to be completely safe is what you seek then theres a highsec for a reason.
Jason Kildaro Minmatar Synergy Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 06:21:00 - [99] Edited by: Jason Kildaro on 16/11/2006 06:25:12 So let's look at the other side of the coin. Make the rules and mechanics allow a mission runner to do whatever they want where ever they want. After all, why should you play this game the way the PvPers want? You should be able to log on night after night and run missions in peace. Unnerf stabs so that they become a must have device that allows you to travel and make isk without risk. This would make mission running a more viable profession and now you are free to make money at will. You would not have to buy items becuase it is safe to loot a mission. You don't have to buy ships because you can gather LP to have faction battleships to make your mission running even easier. You don't have to mine because you can recycle loot. You don't even have to use the stabs much anymore because it will force pirates to 0.0. You don't have to buy transports because a hauler is safe. You don't need friends to help you on these missions. You don't need corps because what is the purpose in having to band together? You don't have to worry about implants because LP will get you those too. So now you can skill faster so that you can run better equipment to run more missions which will allow you more LP to get more equipment and ships which will allow you run more missions. Heck, why buy clones because you should not be have to worry about being killed? You just want to relax and run missions after your long day at work. And after a while we will have a game full of mission runners who can peaceably run missions without having to worry about those bad ol' pie rats. What then? Oh yea, whine to CCP about how boring the game is and how they need to introduce more challenging AI in the game to make your missions more interesting and have a reason to band together. Then whine about how there is nothing to do in this game but grind missions. Then we can whine about how crafting is useless because there is no incentive to make anything. Then we can whine to CCP about how we need to introduce something for the advanced players and get bigger ships to counter the new NPC's and AI. But then the new ships will be to strong so you will whine about how there is no new content and how CCP should introduce more missions and new NPC's. Hmmmm. Can you see where this is going?
Death Merchant InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.16 06:35:00 - [100] Originally by: Jason Kildaro Edited by: Jason Kildaro on 16/11/2006 06:25:12 So let's look at the other side of the coin.< good stuff> **** youre good "What happens in Deklien stays in Deklien".
Jason Kildaro Minmatar Synergy Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 06:37:00 - [101] Edited by: Jason Kildaro on 16/11/2006 06:42:41 Edited by: Jason Kildaro on 16/11/2006 06:38:23 Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Jason Kildaro So I bring up points to counter your arguement and now I'm bashing a carebear? Jason, important though you are, you are NOT the only person in this thread... Originally by: DiuxDium Wahh, I don't want to have to look at local. Is all I see honestly. You got me here. That shot was fired first. But only after 5 -6 posts tried to reason with you. Originally by: Alowishus As opposed to the 12-year-old casual whiner? That kind of talk really is what defines MMO players whiney sore losers. The ones who imply that different styles of play indicate IRL inferiority. CCP told you what this game would be like, a PvP game, you don't like PvP yet you play anyway and we get to listen to you whine about it. Please please please quit. Quoting out of context 4TW! Your post previously had said that you fitted stabs to fend off the "12 year old pirates" Originally by: Jason Kildaro So stop with the little man gets boned crap. And this was in response to your post that stated that there is no content for the non-PvPer. I listed 14 things to prove you wrong. Originally by: Nicocat Stupid, whorish little mission runners SHOULD die after all the effort it takes to probe their dumb, putzy asses down. Unwarranted, I give you this one Originally by: Jason Kildaro Funny how mission runners complain about no content yet they contribute highly to the market downfall. This is not bashing. This is fact. Originally by: Alowishus And additionally, your life is way too easy already, and I only hope the WCS nerf is a first step toward it getting a lot harder. And if you want to whine or even quit, great! Maybe the whine or quit comment was a little harsh. I think that's a fairly wide range of carebear bashing. Like a post before me put it. It's not carebear bashing. No one cares about the fact that you do not wish to engage in Eve's other content. But your adversity to their playstyle affects their playstyle. Just like their playstyle affects yours. It is impossible to grant you your wish without intruding upon others.
Jason Kildaro Minmatar Synergy Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 06:51:00 - [102] Grey Area. I hope this does not look like I am atacking you. I am not. But what I do want to bring to thetable is that the PvP aspect of this game brings things to the game that are unique to Eve and makes Eve the game that it is. There is other games that appeal to the more pleasant side of things. And while I hope that one day you stay in Eve (heck, I would even extend a hand to my corp!) I just wish that you would see that there is other games that offer what you want. But please don't try to make this game that way.
Spanker	Posted - 2006.11.16 08:09:00 - [103] Originally by: Grey Area You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec First of all, who uses stabs on their mission ship? Would royally screw everything up. Secondly, any single person attacking my missioning raven would probably be turned in to dust so fast it isn't even funny. Or yes actually, it would be funny. If anything I'll start using a scrambler just to make a point. So no I don't think mission runners will move from lowsec anytime soon! - Shpank
Patric Murphy Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.16 09:00:00 - [104] Originally by: Grey Area Feel free to bash me in my absence...I won't be here to read about it. Can I have your stuff? sorry, couldn't help my self. No, i cant spell, Yes, i have an education. Please try to keep your responses related to what I said, not the typo's.
Naran Darkmood Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.16 09:22:00 - [105] Originally by: BlackMoon Thrawn You would need 5 pionts of scram to hold someone with 4 wcs. Thats part of the issue you need one more point than stab and in amar, alotof minmitar and even caldari ships that gets hard to achieve real fast. on a ship with 3 mids or less the setup will be severely gimped fitting a couple scrams. EVE is not a solo game one needs other people for things but, a dedicated tackling ship should not be a neccesity every time you want to pvp. Hmm, how about bring a friend. (But, yea, only mission runners should have to do that, right). Pick a fight the other one wants to fight as well. (Yes, this means you might loose). For some reason, I get the feeling, everybody uses the same arguments for boths ides. Maybe we mission runners should start a thread for stacking nerfing Warp scramblers ... decrease effictve range when you fit more than one. Back to the point I think the WCS nerf is over the top. At least one WCS should be free to fit with seriously gimping for ship in combat. You might disagree, but i simply disagree with you. Originally by: Patch86 How ironic that "****" (polish) is filtered, but "arse" and "ass" are not. No polish swearing on these English language only forums, or bannage!
FoRGyL Beer and Kebabs Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.16 09:34:00 - [106] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Jason Kildaro I personally research a game before I pay monthly for it, maybe I'm just being presumptious and assume everyone else does too. Hmmm, back when I started playing (18th May 2003) there wasn't exactly a lot of material to "research"...and that's partly my point...a lot of stuff has changed, and largely the nerf bat is most often waved at those who do NOT PVP. Yes, it was always stated that this was primarily a PVP gaem. but back a few years, allowances were made (and IMO, those allowances are what has given EVE it's longevity). but with each patch the non-PVP'ers get less and less to do. Eventually, we have to decided if this IS the game we want to play...for some of us, it is rapidly becoming a differnet game to the one we subscribed to. Geee..all I say is Lv4 in Hisec!! The enorums reward vs risk u get, and u whine to acctually have to use your head now and again??? Even if you do get caught don't you make enough isk to regain it like directly anyway? Common ..look alittle at the hole picture atleast. And to be frank, some sacrifice must be made to get were you want, even if you have made an error in the past. -out- ********************************************************* Pay or don't!
Gix Firebrand	Posted - 2006.11.16 10:02:00 - [107] Edited by: Gix Firebrand on 16/11/2006 10:03:01 As an old school UO player, I approve of the "nerf". It just makes you play smarter. Grey Area's whining is just from lack of experience in MMPORGs..
Laboratus Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 10:02:00 - [108] Edited by: Laboratus on 16/11/2006 10:02:20 Edited by: Laboratus on 16/11/2006 10:02:03 All in all, at the moment the warp scambling system is borked. You should not be able to stop someone warping with a single 20km distrupter. It's way too easy and painless. You should at least have to use a 7.5km or two 20kms. This unneeded WCS nerf further aggravates this problem. Ships have racial propulsion types and strenghts. At some point the system was meant to use them, but it no longer does, if it has ever done so. So, why not use those strenghts and make warp scambling chance based to get rid of this Very _lame_ distrupt/web/jam that leaves you just wobbling about like a lame duck. It's lame, and not interesting. At least make them use a dictor. Chance based. Thank you. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.16 10:21:00 - [109] Originally by: Grey Area At least make the penalty only apply to modules AFTER the first. the current penalty makes it simply impossible to fit any sort of WCS to anything other than a hauler...in fact, if you're going to do this, why not just make the modules hauler-only? Pirates are going to have a field day...I think you've over-reacted to their whining AGAIN...I accept they were being abused...but a penalty for more than one would address that just as well - I'd even be happy with a 75% penalty for each module AFTER the first. At least give the victims SOME chance to get away... This nerf makes the WCS almost redundant, and by the same reasoning, the two point warp scrambler pretty much redundant. Please reconsider. If you fit your ship for pvp ganking its more then fair to force you not to use wcs. If you dont like the risks of pvp be a traveller it's as simple as that.
tiller Beer and Kebabs Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.16 10:35:00 - [110] Originally by: Grey Area Edited by: Grey Area on 15/11/2006 19:31:06 You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? In fact, it's going to worsen the lag problem in Empire...people will move away from agents who even MIGHT send them below 0.5...bye bye Vuorassi...hello Motsu. You also won't see many solo pirates taking on big risky targets. PVP will be greatly reduced as people won't be able to afford sustained losses once wallet runs dry. (and it will) Click me for Pirate Coalition Website of Gankage
Felix Dzerzhinsky	Posted - 2006.11.16 12:10:00 - [111] The problems is that WCS' have been boarderline exploited in PvP for a long time and something needed to change. I will be honest with you though, in Mission running, fast lock times are not a major issue, and while range can be an issue in some spacific cases, those can be overcome by simply turning the mod off. What needed to stop was people fitting setups with WCS' on and going out and killing people with it. Saddly for you, Eve is a pvp game, it started as a pvp game and the older community wishes it to stay that way. With warp to 0kms, and WCS' and whatnot, Eve is trying to make things more palitable for the mission runner/miner type. Last I checked Eve was not a mining sim or a mission/quest game - these things are there to support your income for pvp. And while I understand that some people don't like pvp, it is something you have to learn to like, or find a game which is more controled. I am against the WoWification of eve, and wcs nurf was a good indication from CCP that they agreed.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.16 12:47:00 - [112] Originally by: Grey Area At least make the penalty only apply to modules AFTER the first. the current penalty makes it simply impossible to fit any sort of WCS to anything other than a hauler...in fact, if you're going to do this, why not just make the modules hauler-only? Pirates are going to have a field day...I think you've over-reacted to their whining AGAIN...I accept they were being abused...but a penalty for more than one would address that just as well - I'd even be happy with a 75% penalty for each module AFTER the first. At least give the victims SOME chance to get away... This nerf makes the WCS almost redundant, and by the same reasoning, the two point warp scrambler pretty much redundant. Please reconsider. You can fit to run or fit to fight but not both; where is the problem? ---------- IBTL \o/
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.11.16 13:30:00 - [113] Originally by: Grey Area a lot of stuff has changed .. nerf .. those who do NOT PVP I really wonder how you can reach this conclusion. Say, if killing hapless victims is nowadays much harder than on release, wouldn't that imply nerfs have hurt pirates more than their targets? Also Kali changes (insta 0km, WCS nerf) IMHO help 'carebears' a lot, and are direct heavy nerf on pirates. How you turn it as a move against carebears? Some likely consequences: - PvPers will fit less scrambling power -> when you need to fit a stab, it will be far more effective - Those few gatecamp pirates left will be easier to kill (by anti-pirates etc), or will have more problems to hit on you - Today, if someone bothers to probe your missioning spot, its not probably your feared 12 years old pirate, but small gank squad with enough scrambling power. After Kali, nothing changes except they have less scrambling. Now, if your suggestion of allowing 1 WCS free goes through, nothing really changes from today: PvPers will be forced to fit more scramblers since their opponent (other PvPers) will have stabs anyway. If the nerf happens like planned, then only NPCers can really afford to fit WCS -> you've won already. The planned nerfs is very heavy on PvPers, but only minor inconvenience on NPCers. At most you might have to slighly modify your preferred NPC setup (extra sensor booster) or tactics. -Lasse who only occasionally visits the grey lowsec
Auman Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.16 13:57:00 - [114] Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 16/11/2006 10:02:20 Edited by: Laboratus on 16/11/2006 10:02:03 All in all, at the moment the warp scambling system is borked. You should not be able to stop someone warping with a single 20km distrupter. It's way too easy and painless. You should at least have to use a 7.5km or two 20kms. This unneeded WCS nerf further aggravates this problem. Ships have racial propulsion types and strenghts. At some point the system was meant to use them, but it no longer does, if it has ever done so. So, why not use those strenghts and make warp scambling chance based to get rid of this Very _lame_ distrupt/web/jam that leaves you just wobbling about like a lame duck. It's lame, and not interesting. At least make them use a dictor. Chance based. Thank you. No thanks, chance based ECM is bad enough.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.16 15:29:00 - [115] Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky I am against the WoWification of eve, and wcs nurf was a good indication from CCP that they agreed. Hmm, WCS total nerf is small step to convert Eve into WoW whicth it stupid PvP. With WCS we could hit and run. With WCS noob could try PvP. With WCS hauler and miner had better chance to run from gate camp. With WCS dictors were much more important. With WCS we could meet lone sniping tempest. With WCS we saw lots of expensive ships with factional fit in 0.0 Of course, having good enemy you will be dead in any case either with WCS, or without. Of course, WCS MUST be nerfed to remove stababond and like setups. But why not nerf carefully, CCP? Why every nerf I see in Kali devastates the gameplay we all like? TBH, WCS nerf will not touch me directly(corporation internal rule - no WCS), but it is good example how CCP is solving existing problems. --------------------------------- Hint: Train for Mega, not for Rokh R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM>
Smegma	Posted - 2006.11.16 15:36:00 - [116] /me looks at GA ..... and hands him the extinguisher and anti septic cream .... I'm pretty dissapointed at the state of this thread. GA came up with a good idea for the WCS by allowing one WCS, but making any additional WCS's a pig to use. But a lot of the responces have been abuse in one form or another. Give the bloke a break. This nerf of the WCS should make PVP hit and run more risky but will still give Mission runners a fair ***** at the whip if they fancy a trip into low sec ( and the pirats a chance to scram and gank ). I do think the "jump to 0KM" is just plain pants as it removes any thought process or preperation to move through low sec. It seems that a lot of pirates out there want unlimited access to any mission runner in "their" system ( do i see you name on it? ... no ... though i think Tama will be renamed MDK 01 ... ) , its what they want and their game style ... Great! Good for them. But what if a mission runner doesn't want to engage in PVP because they don't have the ship/weapons/skills/gang/balls? Does it mean that because the mission runner game style doesn't conform to that of the PVP'ers its illegal and shouldn't be allowed on server? ... Hmmm . No. I like this game atm because i can choose to either PVP ( after a bag of 90% sugar Haribo sweeties and a couple of cups of espresso's )or i can choose to carebare it ( the pink one with the rainbow on the front ) in high sec when i'm tired/stressed/hungover/on a low from too much sugar and caffine. Any mission runner who doesn't reccy the system they need to go through and create insta's, or keeps and eye on local deserves a free trip to the clone tank imo. This way it gives the piwats a chance for a kill ( if the mission runner is stupid/careless/reccy'ing ) and it gives the runners a chance to complete the mission or move through. Moving all the lvl4 agents to low sec will be a tad unfair as it will allow the pirats gangs to hump a station and take a fair pop at whoever pokes their nose out..... Some of the posters in this thread need to see things from both sides of the fence and stop being abusive. Take a look at whats being proposed and either discuss it ( agree or disagree ) or refrain from posting. Not WTFBBQ the original poster with T2 anger and attitude. I shall now retire to my new and improved flame retardent bunker .....
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 15:46:00 - [117] I'm not sure where everyone gets the impression that there will be fewer scram modules, if anything the WCS nerf will increase those numbers. Right now if you have more WCS than they have scram you get away. With Kali if they want to have any chance at fighting they can't mount a WCS, meaning that mounting a single scram is guarenteed to stop them. You will see even more scram modules as they are now much more effective. But the one counter has been nerfed. Which means fewer targets in LowSec and fewer targets to hunt.... --------------------------------------------------- MMORPG == Massively Moronic Online Raw Powergaming Grief fests.... Play something different: EvE LowSec != NoSec
Megadon Caldari Deathshead Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:41:00 - [118] Although I am supremely happy with the WCS nerf, I do think CCP may have overdone it with penalizing the fitting of just one WCS. Maybe not, but my problem wasn't with some guy fitting one, but people fitting more than 2 of the things and being untouchable, aka 'Stabbabond'. That kind of abuse just got out of hand. Fitting one on the other hand was a bit like training wheels for new pvp'ers or a safety net for mission runners. It was something that was easily countered with a 2 point scram, but would let someone get away from a 1 point disruptor and I don't really see any problem with that. CCP apparently does and I think that's a mistake.
Crellion Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:31:00 - [119] Edited by: Crellion on 16/11/2006 18:32:17 I used to respect the OP... (then again who am I to talk about wcs... havent fitted one in 2006 I dont think) Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:40:00 - [120] If you like the stab nerf that much you are going to love the changes to the probe system. My estimate is that for a competent prober with good skills it will take around 2-3 min from dropping the first probe until he is warping in on you with 0m accuracy. The window of opportunity you have to see his probes on the scanner to warn you is around 40 sec long. This estimate assumes you are in a BS and the mission take place within 40au from the system center.

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