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Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:20:00 - [1] At least make the penalty only apply to modules AFTER the first. the current penalty makes it simply impossible to fit any sort of WCS to anything other than a hauler...in fact, if you're going to do this, why not just make the modules hauler-only? Pirates are going to have a field day...I think you've over-reacted to their whining AGAIN...I accept they were being abused...but a penalty for more than one would address that just as well - I'd even be happy with a 75% penalty for each module AFTER the first. At least give the victims SOME chance to get away... This nerf makes the WCS almost redundant, and by the same reasoning, the two point warp scrambler pretty much redundant. Please reconsider. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Mal Hondo THeOThErs Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:26:00 - [2] i disagree - wcs should only be fitted to something when you want to travel safely(er) Hate something. Change something. Hate something, change something - make something better! Da doo be doo bi doo bi doo bi dooooooo!
Flaming sambuka Trinity Nova	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:30:00 - [3] Originally by: Mal Hondo i disagree - wcs should only be fitted to something when you want to travel safely(er) I agree, there should be no reason to use wcs other than on ships you are transporting or transporting goods in. Trinity Nova Mercenary Services
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:30:00 - [4] Edited by: Grey Area on 15/11/2006 19:31:06 You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? In fact, it's going to worsen the lag problem in Empire...people will move away from agents who even MIGHT send them below 0.5...bye bye Vuorassi...hello Motsu. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:31:00 - [5] Originally by: Grey Area You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? You're right. Remove L4's from hisec! ---
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:32:00 - [6] Originally by: Jin Entres Originally by: Grey Area You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? You're right. Remove L4's from hisec! Or, as I prefer to call it "Remove players from EVE" --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
BlackMoon Thrawn Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:34:00 - [7] I think you are a little confused. The wcs nerf will hurt more pirates than it helps initally. They will, however, adapt. What remains to be seen is if the non pirate users will adapt. Stabs can be used on haulers and ships in transit with no penalty to thier usefulness. They cannot be put on combat ships so everything is as it should be imo.
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:34:00 - [8] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Jin Entres Originally by: Grey Area You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? You're right. Remove L4's from hisec! Or, as I prefer to call it "Remove players from EVE" Or, as I prefer to call it "Oh noes i might have to interact with other people in this multiplayer game!" Manlove by Zaphod Jones
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:35:00 - [9] Originally by: Murukan Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Jin Entres Originally by: Grey Area You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? You're right. Remove L4's from hisec! Or, as I prefer to call it "Remove players from EVE" Or, as I prefer to call it "Oh noes i might have to interact with other people in this multiplayer game!" I interact plenty...if your version of "interact" means "get shot at"...I'll pass thank you. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:35:00 - [10] Originally by: Flaming sambuka Originally by: Mal Hondo i disagree - wcs should only be fitted to something when you want to travel safely(er) I agree, there should be no reason to use wcs other than on ships you are transporting or transporting goods in. Here's a reason. I want to shoot the NPCs on a low sec mission, but I want to run away if a player p[irate turns up, because I know he's going to kill me. Mission running setup is not good for PVP. PVP setup is not good for mission running. A SINGLE WCS was a good "just in case" fitting to allow for a lone pirate just chancing his arm, or maybe it would let you warp away when ONE scram was trained on you, but his partner hadn't got the lock yet. Just becuase you DISAGREE with the reason, doesn't mean it's NOT a reason. Don't think you'll get any more mission runner kills for this Mr. Pirates...I just won't run missions in low sec any more. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Angus McLean Gallente Divinity Trials	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:36:00 - [11] Originally by: Grey Area Edited by: Grey Area on 15/11/2006 19:31:06 You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? In fact, it's going to worsen the lag problem in Empire...people will move away from agents who even MIGHT send them below 0.5...bye bye Vuorassi...hello Motsu. Exactly. Pirates whined and wanted WCS's removed so they could pirate easier. Now they just wont see anything in 0.0 and whine again. Thus bring us back to the WCS idea. My idea? Take all of Empire out of the game except say 30 systems that everyone starts in. AKA to have a fun game that way, expand. The Repricussions? Some alliance takes over all the 0.0 surrounding empire thus blocking nubs in.
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:39:00 - [12] Originally by: Grey Area Edited by: Grey Area on 15/11/2006 19:31:06 You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? In fact, it's going to worsen the lag problem in Empire...people will move away from agents who even MIGHT send them below 0.5...bye bye Vuorassi...hello Motsu. ... Grow some balls tbfh? I do level 4 missions in lowsec. Not only do I do them in lowsec, I do them in Amamake. For those who don't know Amamake, it's basically the most pirate infested system in the game. Doing missions in lowsec is almost completely safe, as long as you have a brain and know how to use it.
Flaming sambuka Trinity Nova	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:39:00 - [13] Originally by: Grey Area Here's a reason. I want to shoot the NPCs on a low sec mission, but I want to run away if a player p[irate turns up, because I know he's going to kill me. Mission running setup is not good for PVP. PVP setup is not good for mission running. A SINGLE WCS was a good "just in case" fitting to allow for a lone pirate just chancing his arm, or maybe it would let you warp away when ONE scram was trained on you, but his partner hadn't got the lock yet. Just becuase you DISAGREE with the reason, doesn't mean it's NOT a reason. Don't think you'll get any more mission runner kills for this Mr. Pirates...I just won't run missions in low sec any more. Simple, dont go mission running in low sec alone, you are given a clear warning before you enter low sec laying down the rules Trinity Nova Mercenary Services
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:41:00 - [14] Angus...I'll quit. End of story. I don't play the game to PVP. You're not going to MAKE me PVP, no matter what you try. PVP'ers play the game for the rush. I (and most of my mission running friends) play the game to relax after a long day. I don't NEED everybody and his dog trying to shoot me every time I poke my nose out of the station. CCP should count the number of people who never leave Empire before they consider your idea. it's one way to solve the lag problem...but I don't think CCP spent all that money on servers just so a handful of pirates could all run around shooting each other in (what I am sure would be) a VERY smooth running universe. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:42:00 - [15] If you don't want to get shot at, you shouldn't be able to shoot either. Hence you fit WCS for travel. You know pirates are a lot easier to catch when they can't wear stabs while sniping, and will use less in general. And as compensation for losing the imbalanced easiness of wielding several WCS you get warp to 0. ---
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:42:00 - [16] With the introduction of Warp to 0, a reduction in the usefulness of WCS was absolutely necessary, otherwise mission runners etc would be nigh invincible. People need to stop looking at individual changes in a vacuum and more how they interact with each other. _____________________________________________
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:44:00 - [17] Originally by: Flaming sambuka Simple, dont go mission running in low sec alone, you are given a clear warning before you enter low sec laying down the rules Rewards don't justify sharing. An anyway, said rules don't say "don't come in unless you bring a blob". I don't mind getting shot at, and the request to fit ONE WCS without a penalty is hardly the same as going back to where it was. Two one-point scramblers, or one two-pointer, and I'm still locked down and very dead. I'm even happy that a Tech II WCS (if released) WHOULD have a penalty for fitting the first module (assuming it gives a two-point stab effect) --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Mal Hondo THeOThErs Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:45:00 - [18] Originally by: Grey Area Angus...I'll quit. End of story. I don't play the game to PVP. You're not going to MAKE me PVP, no matter what you try. PVP'ers play the game for the rush. I (and most of my mission running friends) play the game to relax after a long day. I don't NEED everybody and his dog trying to shoot me every time I poke my nose out of the station. CCP should count the number of people who never leave Empire before they consider your idea. it's one way to solve the lag problem...but I don't think CCP spent all that money on servers just so a handful of pirates could all run around shooting each other in (what I am sure would be) a VERY smooth running universe. no offense mate, but your opinion of stabs is not the majorities. Hate something. Change something. Hate something, change something - make something better! Da doo be doo bi doo bi doo bi dooooooo!
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:46:00 - [19] Originally by: SN3263827 With the introduction of Warp to 0, a reduction in the usefulness of WCS was absolutely necessary, otherwise mission runners etc would be nigh invincible. People need to stop looking at individual changes in a vacuum and more how they interact with each other. Blah. Warp to 0km is a nice little trick..."Look Mr Carebear, it's perfectly safe, us nasty pirates can't shoot you...come on in" Of course, no one mentions what's going to happen on the OTHER side of the gate. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Flaming sambuka Trinity Nova	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:49:00 - [20] You cant have your pie and eat it, either mission run in high sec and be safe or do it in low sec were you could be ganked, low sec aint ment to be a carebears paradise, thats why there is no concord. Stabs should only be used for travel, you want to shoot but you dont want to be shot at . You dont need stabs for mission running, learn to use the scanner, learn to use the map, learn to keep and eye on local. Trinity Nova Mercenary Services
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:50:00 - [21] Originally by: Mal Hondo no offense mate, but your opinion of stabs is not the majorities. Just 'cos they shout louderst doesn't make them the majority. I accept they were abused. I'm not asking to go back to how things were. ONE stab, without a penalty. Hell, for all I care ONE stab, and then the SECOND stab gives a 100% penalty to range and lock time. I know you poor pirates have had it SO hard for a long time...but these new rules on WCS are going to allow you to go on a gankfest an you know it...plus the new scanning will allow you to find mission runners in a fraction of the time...and then when you get there, unless they are VERY dumb they won't have a WCS fitted (I don't think ANY of you appreciate what a 50% increase in lock time woudl DO to the average mission), so your one scrambler will be enough to guarantee you the easy kill you crave. The suggestion I'm making isn't exactly groundbreaking. you should be supporting it as it will irritate the 12 year old who just goes out ganking...those of you who count yourself "professional" are hardly going to struggle to overcome ONE warp scrambler...or are you REALLY that pathetic? --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:51:00 - [22] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: SN3263827 With the introduction of Warp to 0, a reduction in the usefulness of WCS was absolutely necessary, otherwise mission runners etc would be nigh invincible. People need to stop looking at individual changes in a vacuum and more how they interact with each other. Blah. Warp to 0km is a nice little trick..."Look Mr Carebear, it's perfectly safe, us nasty pirates can't shoot you...come on in" Of course, no one mentions what's going to happen on the OTHER side of the gate. Use your map, intel and common sense before jumping. With warp to 0 you can warp to that gate from anywhere, not to mention instadocks for when you don't want to jump. Nanofibres help aligning, and cloaks might save you completely. You can't say there aren't tools. ---
Flaming sambuka Trinity Nova	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:54:00 - [23] Originally by: Grey Area unless they are VERY dumb they won't have a WCS fitted Rofl, you couldnt be more wrong, infact the dumb ones are the ones that need to use the wcs in the first place. Trinity Nova Mercenary Services
Mal Hondo THeOThErs Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:56:00 - [24] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Mal Hondo no offense mate, but your opinion of stabs is not the majorities. Just 'cos they shout louderst doesn't make them the majority. I accept they were abused. I'm not asking to go back to how things were. ONE stab, without a penalty. Hell, for all I care ONE stab, and then the SECOND stab gives a 100% penalty to range and lock time. I know you poor pirates have had it SO hard for a long time...but these new rules on WCS are going to allow you to go on a gankfest an you know it...plus the new scanning will allow you to find mission runners in a fraction of the time...and then when you get there, unless they are VERY dumb they won't have a WCS fitted (I don't think ANY of you appreciate what a 50% increase in lock time woudl DO to the average mission), so your one scrambler will be enough to guarantee you the easy kill you crave. The suggestion I'm making isn't exactly groundbreaking. you should be supporting it as it will irritate the 12 year old who just goes out ganking...those of you who count yourself "professional" are hardly going to struggle to overcome ONE warp scrambler...or are you REALLY that pathetic? i am no pirate mate. Hate something. Change something. Hate something, change something - make something better! Da doo be doo bi doo bi doo bi dooooooo!
gazarsgo Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:57:00 - [25] don't cry about WCS, now you have more reasons to justify spamming ctrl-q
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:11:00 - [26] Mal...explain how that helps? --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Mal Hondo THeOThErs Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:13:00 - [27] for a deadspace mission in lowsec, offline your stabs when you reach the gate - then, hey, no penalties for having stabs! (except the wasted lowslots). Hate something. Change something. Hate something, change something - make something better! Da doo be doo bi doo bi doo bi dooooooo!
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:15:00 - [28] OK...I offline at the gate and go through...then 10 minutes later the pirate gank squad scan me and come through the gate...I'm a little busy with the missions, so DON'T have 95% cap to put the WCS back online...what was the point of fitting it again? --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Phenom Fighter Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:15:00 - [29] Originally by: Grey Area It's not TRAVELLING I'm worried about...it's actually being ganked ON THE MISSION...so at that point there's little point having an OFFLINE WCS that I can't ONLINE again because I don't have 95% cap Well, you'll have to work for your isk... just like those pirates will now have to work hard for there kills... Plus, to catch you in a mission they will need a good prober on their side. -----------------------------
Mal Hondo THeOThErs Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:16:00 - [30] for travelling. Hate something. Change something. Hate something, change something - make something better! Da doo be doo bi doo bi doo bi dooooooo!
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:19:00 - [31] Pirates work hard for their kills? yeah, sure... I don't BLAME you guys for not being able to see my point of view. I mean your whole playing style is based on forcing what YOU want upon someone else who DOESN'T want it. EVE used to cater a little bit (more than any other game) for those who DIDN'T want it, but now they are reversing that...CCP have become the gate gankers, forcing their idea of playstyle on everyone else. I just hope they have thought it through is all. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Mal Hondo THeOThErs Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:20:00 - [32] Originally by: Mal Hondo Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Mal Hondo no offense mate, but your opinion of stabs is not the majorities. Just 'cos they shout louderst doesn't make them the majority. I accept they were abused. I'm not asking to go back to how things were. ONE stab, without a penalty. Hell, for all I care ONE stab, and then the SECOND stab gives a 100% penalty to range and lock time. I know you poor pirates have had it SO hard for a long time...but these new rules on WCS are going to allow you to go on a gankfest an you know it...plus the new scanning will allow you to find mission runners in a fraction of the time...and then when you get there, unless they are VERY dumb they won't have a WCS fitted (I don't think ANY of you appreciate what a 50% increase in lock time woudl DO to the average mission), so your one scrambler will be enough to guarantee you the easy kill you crave. The suggestion I'm making isn't exactly groundbreaking. you should be supporting it as it will irritate the 12 year old who just goes out ganking...those of you who count yourself "professional" are hardly going to struggle to overcome ONE warp scrambler...or are you REALLY that pathetic? i am no pirate mate. Hate something. Change something. Hate something, change something - make something better! Da doo be doo bi doo bi doo bi dooooooo!
Mal Hondo THeOThErs Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:21:00 - [33] Originally by: Grey Area Pirates work hard for their kills? yeah, sure... I don't BLAME you guys for not being able to see my point of view. I mean your whole playing style is based on forcing what YOU want upon someone else who DOESN'T want it. EVE used to cater a little bit (more than any other game) for those who DIDN'T want it, but now they are reversing that...CCP have become the gate gankers, forcing their idea of playstyle on everyone else. I just hope they have thought it through is all. lol - tux - plz read this. Hate something. Change something. Hate something, change something - make something better! Da doo be doo bi doo bi doo bi dooooooo!
Phenom Fighter Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:22:00 - [34] Originally by: Grey Area Pirates work hard for their kills? yeah, sure... I don't BLAME you guys for not being able to see my point of view. I mean your whole playing style is based on forcing what YOU want upon someone else who DOESN'T want it. EVE used to cater a little bit (more than any other game) for those who DIDN'T want it, but now they are reversing that...CCP have become the gate gankers, forcing their idea of playstyle on everyone else. I just hope they have thought it through is all. Lol dont patronise me carebear. Im trying to help out like every1 else in this thread. Petition to CCP with your problem before crying to eve's members -----------------------------
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:28:00 - [35] Attitude above kind of proves my point. And just 'cos I'm a carebear in EVE, don't go thinking I'm quaking in my boots at your strong words. This is an open forum for carebears and psycho's alike. I'll post where the hell I want. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Phenom Fighter Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:31:00 - [36] Sure thing, just dont expect anybody to help you now, this is flame-bait -----------------------------
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:32:00 - [37] LOL. Sorry I must have glossed over all the offers of help and support that were in the START of this thread... --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
BlackMoon Thrawn Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:34:00 - [38] Originally by: Grey Area Pirates work hard for their kills? yeah, sure... I don't BLAME you guys for not being able to see my point of view. I mean your whole playing style is based on forcing what YOU want upon someone else who DOESN'T want it. EVE used to cater a little bit (more than any other game) for those who DIDN'T want it, but now they are reversing that...CCP have become the gate gankers, forcing their idea of playstyle on everyone else. I just hope they have thought it through is all. Quit saying "you", like everyone here is a pirate. It's you who cant see anyone elses point of view besides yours and pirates. I have never pirated a day in my eve life, but I want wcs nerfed because you shouldnt have to get 5 points on someone to keep them from warping off when things get to hot. Hell you shouldnt have to put 2 points on them. 7.5k scrams are useless on just about anything but an inty or dedicated tackleing frig. You say that missions dont pay enough to take others along? Perhaps your asumptions are based on how much you can make on level 4's in highsec and the risk for doing them in lowsec. The high sec missions are what are out of balance but thats another thread.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:36:00 - [39] Blackmoon...WHERE did I suggest allowing FIVE WCS on a ship again? ONE. that's all I'm asking. Why is that so hard? --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
MyOwnSling Gallente RONA Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:37:00 - [40] Edited by: MyOwnSling on 15/11/2006 20:36:51 Originally by: BlackMoon Thrawn Originally by: Grey Area Pirates work hard for their kills? yeah, sure... I don't BLAME you guys for not being able to see my point of view. I mean your whole playing style is based on forcing what YOU want upon someone else who DOESN'T want it. EVE used to cater a little bit (more than any other game) for those who DIDN'T want it, but now they are reversing that...CCP have become the gate gankers, forcing their idea of playstyle on everyone else. I just hope they have thought it through is all. Quit saying "you", like everyone here is a pirate. It's you who cant see anyone elses point of view besides yours and pirates. I have never pirated a day in my eve life, but I want wcs nerfed because you shouldnt have to get 5 points on someone to keep them from warping off when things get to hot. Hell you shouldnt have to put 2 points on them. 7.5k scrams are useless on just about anything but an inty or dedicated tackleing frig. You say that missions dont pay enough to take others along? Perhaps your asumptions are based on how much you can make on level 4's in highsec and the risk for doing them in lowsec. The high sec missions are what are out of balance but thats another thread. I have to agree here. I am also not a pirate and I think the stab nerf is a good idea. I do run missions in low sec, all you have to do is pay a little attention and keep on your toes and you will be fine. ------------- Stop whining.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:38:00 - [41] OK...let it die...even before I posted here I knew this would be the reaction. Enjoy yourself at your gatecamps, those of you who ARE pirates (and apologies to those who I may have unintentionally maligned). I just think you might find things are a bit quieter after the patch. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
The Armin Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:46:00 - [42] Edited by: The Armin on 15/11/2006 20:52:55 Better ideas: - Move all lvl3 and lvl4 missions to lowsec - Increase mish payment (0.0 mish too pls) risk vs reward y'know - Release Single Player Eve for ppl like the OP. (Means less server lag for us who actually play, 10 000 carebears spawning 60 ships every 2 minutes probably hurts poor TQ.) This would mean that mission runners actually would have to gang up together and start fighting evil pirates, and other mission corps for the better mission agents. :D Or they could play singleplayer, no loss :) Oh 'n here's another suggestion for you: Usually it's just the gates to empire and chokepoints that gets camped. Get Raven, fit 6 stabs, or 6 of the new nano stabs, all good, warp to 0, warp to 0, warp to 0. Pirate campers ain't gonna follow you and can't catch you on the other side. Now find Station, buy Interceptor, haul mods, do mish as a perfectly happy carebear untill someone decide to spoil your fun. All it required was 2 min of thinkin'
BlackMoon Thrawn Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:56:00 - [43] Originally by: Grey Area Blackmoon...WHERE did I suggest allowing FIVE WCS on a ship again? ONE. that's all I'm asking. Why is that so hard? You would need 5 pionts of scram to hold someone with 4 wcs. Thats part of the issue you need one more point than stab and in amar, alotof minmitar and even caldari ships that gets hard to achieve real fast. on a ship with 3 mids or less the setup will be severely gimped fitting a couple scrams. EVE is not a solo game one needs other people for things but, a dedicated tackling ship should not be a neccesity every time you want to pvp.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:57:00 - [44] Originally by: BlackMoon Thrawn Originally by: Grey Area Hell you shouldnt have to put 2 points on them. 7.5k scrams are useless on just about anything but an inty or dedicated tackleing frig. Simple question: Why SHOULDN'T scramblers be worthless on all be dedicated ships? In almost every Sci-Fi genre that even has scramblers they are always mounted on dedicated ships that are specialized to do precisely that; scramble other ships. Here we have another imbalance in that all ships can mount a scrambler but no ship that even wants to defend itself can counter it. Put heavy penalties on those ships that mount WCS, but also make it so that only dedicated scrambling ships (anyone ever here of an interdictor?) are required to actually scram. Then have counter-modules that your opponents' ECCM ships can use to counter the effects of your scramblers. This way your gate camps are functional, your ability to "protect" your turf is unharmed but a single pirate has to fight for his prey and work at it just like those he is attacking. And a prey that does get scrambed also has an option; take out the ECM ship before its friends take out you. And while you are at it, make any scram considered hostile so that the agression timer is working. As it is with the new rules its a win-win for those that are ganking.... --------------------------------------------------- MMORPG == Massively Moronic Online Raw Powergaming Grief fests.... Play something different: EvE LowSec != NoSec
BlackMoon Thrawn Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:00:00 - [45] Quote: - Release Single Player Eve for ppl like the OP. No, eve is a pvp game in just about every facet. It wouldnt be eve if there was no risk.
BlackMoon Thrawn Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:04:00 - [46] Quote: Put heavy penalties on those ships that mount WCS, but also make it so that only dedicated scrambling ships (anyone ever here of an interdictor?) are required to actually scram. Then have counter-modules that your opponents' ECCM ships can use to counter the effects of your scramblers. so you want interdictors in lowsec AND wcs to be as effective as eccm?
Alowishus Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:06:00 - [47] Oh goodness. The original poster, and people like him, make me want to drink bleach. There are more than just "pirates" and "non-pirates." There are other types of combat and the WCS nerf is going to help there too. Also, this WCS nerf is a nerf for pirates more than anyone. It's a nerf to low sec gate snipers who snipe all day long with impunity because nobody can ever catch them. Lastly, I'm sorry, but involuntary PvP is not a bug, it's a part of the game. Live with it or play something else. The moderators here are excellent at policing signatures.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:07:00 - [48] Originally by: BlackMoon Thrawn Originally by: Grey Area Blackmoon...WHERE did I suggest allowing FIVE WCS on a ship again? ONE. that's all I'm asking. Why is that so hard? You would need 5 pionts of scram to hold someone with 4 wcs. Thats part of the issue you need one more point than stab and in amar, alotof minmitar and even caldari ships that gets hard to achieve real fast. on a ship with 3 mids or less the setup will be severely gimped fitting a couple scrams. EVE is not a solo game one needs other people for things but, a dedicated tackling ship should not be a neccesity every time you want to pvp. I detect a little flaw here...you shouldn't need a friend every time you want to PVP...but you MUST take a friend if you want to mission in low sec. I say again...a single point of warp core stab to be allowed on a ship without a penalty. Still giving up a module to fit it, and, as I have suggested, gimp the second and above WCS even harder if you must. Anything else makes it too easy for pirates. And whilst there are hardened low sec mission runners with balls of steel who fart fireballs and don't use WCS because they are for GIRLS, there is a whole load of namby pamby carebears who occasionally get a mission just over the border in a 0.4, who might want to try and do it. Without the (probably false) security of a single WCS, I think they will stop coming. I think that's the opposite of what the pirates would want. I may be wrong, only time will tell. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:08:00 - [49] Originally by: BlackMoon Thrawn Quote: Put heavy penalties on those ships that mount WCS, but also make it so that only dedicated scrambling ships (anyone ever here of an interdictor?) are required to actually scram. Then have counter-modules that your opponents' ECCM ships can use to counter the effects of your scramblers. so you want interdictors in lowsec AND wcs to be as effective as eccm? No, I want interdictors to do their job, stopping ships from warping. Leave the heavy penalties for ships that mount WCS like the new rules provide and impose heavy penalties for ships that mount scramblers that aren't designed to be Interdictors. Then provide for anti-interdictor equipement that can be mounted on ECCM ships (and ONLY ECCM ships) to counter the Interdictors for fleet warfare. As it is right now almost any ships is an Interdictor with adding one module. Make them use the ships designed for it. --------------------------------------------------- MMORPG == Massively Moronic Online Raw Powergaming Grief fests.... Play something different: EvE LowSec != NoSec
Cold Gorilla Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:10:00 - [50] I would change penalty from lock range to damage, same percentage, that way any one who fits them, wont be able to do much damage, yet u ll still be able to use em on EW ships, since they are dead coffins any ways.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:11:00 - [51] Originally by: Alowishus Oh goodness. The original poster, and people like him, make me want to drink bleach. I was going to type something here, but it's probably against forum rules. Fill in the blanks yourself. Originally by: Alowishus There are more than just "pirates" and "non-pirates." There are other types of combat and the WCS nerf is going to help there too. AGAIN, not asking to UNDO the nerf, just to modify it...I don't see ONE WCS being the end of the world for ANY sort of combat team to overcome. Originally by: Alowishus Also, this WCS nerf is a nerf for pirates more than anyone. It's a nerf to low sec gate snipers who snipe all day long with impunity because nobody can ever catch them. Again...ONE WCS without penalty wouldn't exactly make them bullet proof. Originally by: Alowishus Lastly, I'm sorry, but involuntary PvP is not a bug, it's a part of the game. Live with it or play something else. If all the people who did NOT want involuntary PVP took your last three words of advice...how many subscribers do you think would be left? --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:14:00 - [52] Just my experience, but the extra rewards in low sec do not justify having to run and hide every 2 missions becuase of pirates. Why I confine myself to empire or 0.0 Pirates in Low sec get first srtike capabilities. Can I kill the pirate if he was in 0.0? usually yes, becuase I can dictate the engagement terms, use my faster lock time, ect. can I kill him with gate guns on me? no. Basicaly a pirate has first shot advantage, which in a Battleship vs anything smaller is is almost I win. Yea, It's fun starting out a fight with 1/3 your cap in a cruiser.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolance	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:23:00 - [53] I dont get you, why dont you fit one stab than 93 km lockingrange on raven, fit a named stab and you end up with 50ish range...doesnt seem like a big deal... _________________________________________________
Arte	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:24:00 - [54] I see your point Grey Area, but I do think that even fitting one stab should be 'punishable'- Just not perhaps so harshly. Mission running is as viable a form of game play as PvP in any guise and I can see how a 50% penalty would totally gimp NPC setups. Perhaps as a modification of your idea, the penalties for the first WCS should still be in place but just not be as harsh... say 25-30% and rising for every other stab added thereafter? Tangible difference but workable... Just a thought.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:26:00 - [55] madaluap...it's not the range so much, it's the lock time...50% penalty to that AS WELL arte...well at least someone's THINKING about it...that idea is worth discussing at least (hope you brought flameproof underwear though...you may not get as roasted as me, but I'd expect you to get a little charred at least) --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
BlackMoon Thrawn Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:31:00 - [56] Quote: I detect a little flaw here...you shouldn't need a friend every time you want to PVP...but you MUST take a friend if you want to mission in low sec. No, you only have to take a friend if you want the safety numbers provide. If they are all mission fit that safety is debateable anyway. If ccp allows 1 wcs on every ship with no penalty then one would need 2 points on every ship unless he had a dedicated tackler and generally those ships are fairly weak anyway. The point is haveing to carry 2 scramblers unnesecerly gimps alot of ships. While you may enjoy the pve side of the game it is designed as a pvp game and ballanced as such. Level 3 missions in highsec are about the best money someone should make without pvp risk coming into play. By pvp I mean in the market and combat.
Tammarr	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:37:00 - [57] Due to the HUGE nerf to wcs I'am a bit sad. I was hoping for a 20-15% ish nerf to range/speed with named giving less ofc. Now with this HUGE nerf I simply said when it was annoucend and have begun the following: No more ganksquads in big alliance spaces, except blobs which you'll have ample warning about. =No risk in big alliances space for rating, mission running, mining. No need to constantly watch local for enemies because, they wont make it without wcs, with the risk of losing at the third jump, and possibly no way(in real 0.0 space compared to to empire 0.0 with free for all stations) to unfit them on their way in. Mind you I'am talking big alliances here mostly because its the easiest way. So, due to this and mining being quite profitable I started a new account and is going directly up to covetor going for nice mining skills, then I'll join with a bob or ascn corp and be happily making a wee bit of money without risking anything, sure 0.0 rats laugh Sure I dont like mining but I can sure go mine when theres no added hazzle of watching local all the time. I'am sad for the huge nerf because I feel it will eliminate any small gangs going in on hit & run(Means not losing ship and the ability to run away if chosing to) I'am however quite sure CCP likes me, I've got another account just for this after all =)
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:41:00 - [58] Originally by: BlackMoon Thrawn Quote: Put heavy penalties on those ships that mount WCS, but also make it so that only dedicated scrambling ships (anyone ever here of an interdictor?) are required to actually scram. Then have counter-modules that your opponents' ECCM ships can use to counter the effects of your scramblers. so you want interdictors in lowsec AND wcs to be as effective as eccm? I put the full idea in this thread since it is a suggestion: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=426616 --------------------------------------------------- MMORPG == Massively Moronic Online Raw Powergaming Grief fests.... Play something different: EvE LowSec != NoSec
DiuxDium Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:42:00 - [59] Wahh, I don't want to have to look at local. Is all I see honestly. 1) Remove Lvl 4 agents from Hi-Sec 2) Nerf WCS In my time in 0.0 and lowsec, i've never died a death where I couldn't say "****, i'm an idiot", I should have X'd when Y occured. If you're unwilling to watch local, I honestly don't believe you should be able to farm billions of isk doing missions afk. I've ran lvl 4's in hisec in my raven, there not enough of a challenge to be worth the millions I made. Dirty money I say.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:54:00 - [60] I just wonder if mr. grey area is actually realizing that fitting 2 wcs migth bring raven to blasterthron combat ranges. See you in low security systems ----------------------------------------------- KALdarI WILL SAVE US ALL...
xenorx 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.15 22:00:00 - [61] Originally by: Grey Area madaluap...it's not the range so much, it's the lock time...50% penalty to that AS WELL arte...well at least someone's THINKING about it...that idea is worth discussing at least (hope you brought flameproof underwear though...you may not get as roasted as me, but I'd expect you to get a little charred at least) You cant be serious. That NPC is not going anywhere in the extra 50% lock time it will take you. However, your unwilling PvP combatent will have an extra 50% more time to warp away before getting blown to bits. That is going to save a lot of carebears right there from low sec snipers alone. This nerf will not affect your isk farming activities, so fear not. Haulers and travelers will not be affected either. If they get into a situation that 8 wcs cant get away from (read interdictor), they will just log off as they already do any way. I for one am so looking forward to seeing a lot fewer stabbed up phagabonds and ravens running around. So quit your gripping. This is one of the best changes ever made to the game. Oh and if you are quitting over this, can I have your stuff? No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
Tanis Bastar Caldari Interstitial Incorporated	Posted - 2006.11.15 22:01:00 - [62] Grey, First, why would it help to allow to use one WCS without penalty? If that's the case all the gate camps would probably figure out to use at least two scrams--what are you gaining? Second, I travel through low-sec alone all the time and don't really understand what you're crying about--I've only been killed a few times, and in each case it's because I made some dumb mistake.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 22:09:00 - [63] Edited by: Grey Area on 15/11/2006 22:11:31 I got ganked on a mission. A while ago, and yes I DID think **** I'm an idiot, because I had NOT fitted a WCS. The one WCS is just to discourage the 12 yr old casual pirate. I have no problem losing ships to people who PREPARE...this nerf removes that need to prepare...yes, it was broken before...this just moves the slider too far in the opposite direction. If it was ONE NPC who wasn't going anywhere I wouldn't be so bothered. The fact that there are about 10 or 12 in a spawn, all getting closer to me as the "locking" timer tick slowly down...and the fact that I was twice as close to them as before becasue of the range nerf...THAT is a cause for concern LUKEC...the point is, you WON'T see me in low sec. Farming level 4's for billions...OK, MY turn to get annoyed...there are people you know, who just run the mission and then do the next one...I have NEVER left a mission open to come back after it has respawned. Thus I do not earn "billions of ISK", and even in MY pimped out ship I'd challenge ANYONE to do a mission "AFK" . --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Phelan Lore Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.11.15 22:10:00 - [64] Originally by: Audri Fisher Pirates in Low sec get first srtike capabilities. Can I kill the pirate if he was in 0.0? usually yes, becuase I can dictate the engagement terms, use my faster lock time, ect. can I kill him with gate guns on me? no. Huh? Most pirates that are any threat are outlaws.
Alowishus Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.11.15 22:26:00 - [65] Originally by: Grey Area The one WCS is just to discourage the 12 yr old casual pirate.. As opposed to the 12-year-old casual whiner? That kind of talk really is what defines MMO players whiney sore losers. The ones who imply that different styles of play indicate IRL inferiority. CCP told you what this game would be like, a PvP game, you don't like PvP yet you play anyway and we get to listen to you whine about it. Please please please quit. The moderators here are excellent at policing signatures.
Harsibash	Posted - 2006.11.15 22:51:00 - [66] Use Scanner, Use Local - L2P. failing that buy and assault frigate, very few people **** with you in them, plus they can do up to lvl 4's
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2006.11.15 22:55:00 - [67] Originally by: Phelan Lore Originally by: Audri Fisher Pirates in Low sec get first srtike capabilities. Can I kill the pirate if he was in 0.0? usually yes, becuase I can dictate the engagement terms, use my faster lock time, ect. can I kill him with gate guns on me? no. Huh? Most pirates that are any threat are outlaws. S*****rdly accepts pirates that aren't any threat? Every time I got popped by a snig, they were > -.5 sec status.
Jason Kildaro Minmatar Synergy Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.15 22:58:00 - [68] This carebear versus pirate thing gets old. I am not a pirate but when carebears come on the forums and start the insults and how gamestyles are pushed on them because of pirates it makes me wonder. It makes me wonder if you looked at any game information at all before coming here. Did you not read posts like this prior to playing Eve? Have you not read numerous dev posts on how they envision the game? I have said this before but it bears repeating. Do you buy a game like Quake and complain about the flag being stolen? Sorry about that but it just makes me wonder. I personally research a game before I pay monthly for it, maybe I'm just being presumptious and assume everyone else does too. Anyway stop looking at changes in a vaccuum. Pirates have as just a much of a problem with stabs as you. I can see you don't hang in low sec that much. Pirates have just as much as a reason to be nervous. I can't tell you why but any pirate here knows. We may also get warp to 0 implemented too. That hurts pirates a lot. As for mission running....I don't know what the problem is here. You got ganked on a mission? Well that is a rare instance. Most pirates don't sit around probing empty space to find mission runners. It takes a while and it's not as easy as belt hunting and sniping. There is a lot of risk for the pirate too. By the way you are mission running in a missile ship. You should be watching the overview and should have plenty of warning if a pirate shows up. You don't even need the stab! If the pirate probes out and warps right on top of you then he did a lot of work to get you....I would probably convo the guy and ask for tips!
Montaire Lacedaemon. Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.15 23:05:00 - [69] So let me preface this by saying Im a HUGE carebear. I have 13 million skill points and cant fire a single weapon nor fly anything above a Frigate. Im not a crazy pirate. I think the heart of this issue is risk vs reward and the true nature of PVP. I was once told "Monty, EVERYTHING in this game is PVP. Building, ratting, mining, missions, fleetcombat - everything is PVP" and they were right. Some of the best rewards in this game are only available for those people willing to fight for them. High end complex's, good ore's, top shelf rats - all available only in lawless space. As a mission runner you have to make a choice, if you want the high end missions they simply are not available in high security space. You make a choice, a choice to go into the lawless space of low security. A place where Concord cannot protect you. This is RISKY, its absolutly not safe. In fact if it were up to me, I wouldnt go there, lowsec is a hole :) So what your experiencing is the VERY heart of EVE, its one of the reasons we like this game. We get to choose what to do, and if we make the harder choice we get better rewards. I know plenty of level 3 missions out there where you will never have to worry about using a WCS. And if you want to do those level 4 missions get a friend, put him in a HAC and have him guard you. If pirates try to gank you - kill them. If you cant kill them, hire some Mercs to do it for you. Spend 200m on a 1 week Wardec from one of the MC corps, guarenteed to make some stupid gate gankers urinate themselves. You have a lot of choices in EVE, its the natuer of the beast. Starting soon having a WCS fitted is a choice not to fight.
Arte	Posted - 2006.11.15 23:05:00 - [70] Originally by: Alowishus Originally by: Grey Area The one WCS is just to discourage the 12 yr old casual pirate.. As opposed to the 12-year-old casual whiner? That kind of talk really is what defines MMO players whiney sore losers. The ones who imply that different styles of play indicate IRL inferiority. CCP told you what this game would be like, a PvP game, you don't like PvP yet you play anyway and we get to listen to you whine about it. Please please please quit. Steady fella. He's seen a threat to a style of gameplay and like hundreds of players before him, is requesting a modification to that upcoming change. Nothing wrong with that, whether you agree with him or not. If you read back, the insults to his real life character occured first cos he called for a change to the nerf. You are now as bad as you percieve him to be. He has a point, the change is harsh. He isn't the first to propose a relaxing of the proposed change. Personally, I agree the change should go ahead but perhaps with a sliding scale of penalty the more you apply the WCS. If it goes ahead as planned it doesn't make one jot of difference to me as I only fit them for travelling purposes only but that doesn't mean I have to totally disagree with him either. Back of and argue constructively or just don't reply.
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2006.11.15 23:06:00 - [71] Just to go on the record here, I am all for the WCS changes. Makes it much easier to secure my little patch of 0.0. I just completley fail to see why in the world anyone would ever go into low sec willingly? The risk vs reward is so fubar. high sec has low risk, decent reward. low sec is low reward, high risk, and 0.0 if you are friends with the local alliance is very high reward, low risk. The last time I got popped in 0.0 when I wasn't looking for a fight was months ago. You spend so much time avoiding pirates in low sec that you would have been better off mining veld in 1.0.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.15 23:07:00 - [72] Originally by: Grey Area LUKEC...the point is, you WON'T see me in low sec. Farming level 4's for billions...OK, MY turn to get annoyed...there are people you know, who just run the mission and then do the next one...I have NEVER left a mission open to come back after it has respawned. Thus I do not earn "billions of ISK", and even in MY pimped out ship I'd challenge ANYONE to do a mission "AFK" . 1. you can die in hi. sec as well 2. i did quite alot missions afk in domi 3. you can farm lvl4 missions without repeating them (cough dg loot on gurista extravaganza etc) ----------------------------------------------- KALdarI WILL SAVE US ALL...
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.15 23:09:00 - [73] Originally by: Audri Fisher Just to go on the record here, I am all for the WCS changes. Makes it much easier to secure my little patch of 0.0. I just completley fail to see why in the world anyone would ever go into low sec willingly? The risk vs reward is so fubar. high sec has low risk, decent reward. low sec is low reward, high risk, and 0.0 if you are friends with the local alliance is very high reward, low risk. The last time I got popped in 0.0 when I wasn't looking for a fight was months ago. You spend so much time avoiding pirates in low sec that you would have been better off mining veld in 1.0. So very true. I haven't been in empire or low sec for months apart from occasional jump with carrier, dock, take stuff off the escrow, back to places where I can shoot every annoying person ----------------------------------------------- KALdarI WILL SAVE US ALL...
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.15 23:19:00 - [74] Originally by: Jason Kildaro I personally research a game before I pay monthly for it, maybe I'm just being presumptious and assume everyone else does too. Hmmm, back when I started playing (18th May 2003) there wasn't exactly a lot of material to "research"...and that's partly my point...a lot of stuff has changed, and largely the nerf bat is most often waved at those who do NOT PVP. Yes, it was always stated that this was primarily a PVP gaem. but back a few years, allowances were made (and IMO, those allowances are what has given EVE it's longevity). but with each patch the non-PVP'ers get less and less to do. Eventually, we have to decided if this IS the game we want to play...for some of us, it is rapidly becoming a differnet game to the one we subscribed to. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Alowishus Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.11.15 23:30:00 - [75] Edited by: Alowishus on 15/11/2006 23:31:19 Originally by: Grey Area for some of us, it is rapidly becoming a differnet game to the one we subscribed to. For some of us? Try ALL of us. Every community has dealt with change. The game is a learning experience for the Devs as well as the players. When I first joined the game large turrets could hit moving frigs and pop them in one shot, objects got in the way of missiles (including friendly ships!), frigates could fit Cruise Missiles, you could put multiple MWD on a BS and go 8000m/s, less than four multispec jammers could never, ever jam a BS... good god, you name it. Everyone is forced to adapt to change. Do you know how mad I was when they decided my Kestrel could no longer volley kill an Osprey or Hauler? Pretty mad. But in the end it was a good and reasonable change to take Cruise Missiles away from frigs. I got used to it. A change that may affect your "style of play" is inevitable in a game that has evolved as much as Eve has. Adapt or die (or quit, PLEASE). The moderators here are excellent at policing signatures.
Phenom Fighter Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.15 23:31:00 - [76] just like everything in the game, there are risks involved. Hell if it was up too me all level 4 mission should be in low sec at least!! They grant too much isk to be a 'safe' choice. Every otherway has risks. 0.0 ratting/mining, trading (anything decent need 0.0/lowsec travelling) etc... Ok so you use a BS too do your missions? now with the new HP boost, how the hell is a sniping BS, hell even 10 sniping bs gunna kill you before you warp? -----------------------------
Montaire Lacedaemon. Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.15 23:34:00 - [77] Making the choice to run level 4 missions is up to you. You are deciding to go to a place you know isnt safe. Getting blown up from time to time is the price. The reward goes up as the risk does. My honest advice to you though, get out of lowsec, its the armpit of eve. Give a try at bieng in a 0.0 alliance. Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Jason Kildaro I personally research a game before I pay monthly for it, maybe I'm just being presumptious and assume everyone else does too. Hmmm, back when I started playing (18th May 2003) there wasn't exactly a lot of material to "research"...and that's partly my point...a lot of stuff has changed, and largely the nerf bat is most often waved at those who do NOT PVP. Yes, it was always stated that this was primarily a PVP gaem. but back a few years, allowances were made (and IMO, those allowances are what has given EVE it's longevity). but with each patch the non-PVP'ers get less and less to do. Eventually, we have to decided if this IS the game we want to play...for some of us, it is rapidly becoming a differnet game to the one we subscribed to.
Jason Kildaro Minmatar Synergy Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.15 23:45:00 - [78] Edited by: Jason Kildaro on 15/11/2006 23:49:24 Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Jason Kildaro I personally research a game before I pay monthly for it, maybe I'm just being presumptious and assume everyone else does too. Hmmm, back when I started playing (18th May 2003) there wasn't exactly a lot of material to "research"...and that's partly my point...a lot of stuff has changed, and largely the nerf bat is most often waved at those who do NOT PVP. Yes, it was always stated that this was primarily a PVP gaem. but back a few years, allowances were made (and IMO, those allowances are what has given EVE it's longevity). but with each patch the non-PVP'ers get less and less to do. Eventually, we have to decided if this IS the game we want to play...for some of us, it is rapidly becoming a differnet game to the one we subscribed to. Change is good. It prevents the game play from getting old. Since you you have played since retail you should also know you non-PvPers got.... 1. Harder hitting and longer ranged sentry guns to protect you. 2. Transport ships with some awesome stats to protect your goods. 3. More profitable missions. 4. More mining vessels and modules to increase yeilds. 5. Lower end ships were boosted to survive longer. 6. Loot tables were adjusted to give you more power on the market after the mission. 7. Market changes and highway changes to allow regional markets that increase your ability to play the markets. 8. Map options to allow you to make safe routes through space. 9. Introduced ice. 10. Made more deadspace missions to give you more security on your missions. 11. Updated tutorials that explains risks and ways around them. 12. Introduced more routes through low sec space to allow you to go around gate camps. 13. Escrow system that allows more free trade. 14. They put in more NPC types for more profitable rat hunting in more regions. And now CCP is going to introduce... 1. Contracts. 2. Boost hitpoints on ships. 3. Introduce more professions 4. Give out invention. 5. More missions. 6. Warp to 0. 7. Standings in local. So stop with the little man gets boned crap. Eve is getting bigger because CCP is introducing more stuff for EVERYBODY. If you truly have been here since retail you must see that you make more money now per day then you ever did. And you did it because of the changes CCP made. Look at the new citizens forums. New people don't ask what to do, they ask what is the best thing to do. A sure sign that there is many options.
Alowishus Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.11.15 23:54:00 - [79] Good post Jason, nice list. The moderators here are excellent at policing signatures.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.11.15 23:55:00 - [80] Stupid, whorish little mission runners SHOULD die after all the effort it takes to probe their dumb, putzy asses down. One stab won't save you, 9 times out of 10, since it goes like this: Covops probes Covops warps to Stupid Raven #117261 Covops is now warp-in point to death squad Hell, you don't even need a death squad if the covops has a scram of its own. There's two points right there. The stab nerf is very, very needed, and I'm exceedingly happy about it as a duelist and occasional pirate ;) (By the by, my own favorite escape trick, the ECM-throw-sand-in-their-eyes gag, is nerfed too. Boo hoo, find a new trick) ---------------------------- Please don't try to troll in your signature -Eldo([email protected]) I tried?
Alowishus Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.11.16 00:02:00 - [81] Originally by: Nicocat Stupid, whorish little mission runners SHOULD die after all the effort it takes to probe their dumb, putzy asses down. I disagree. I think mission runners should be allowed to make billions in 1.0 systems, risk free, to get faction ships to sell so they can buy other factions ships, make them uber and save even more damsels. That's clearly what CCP envisioned: A bunch of rich mission runners who interact with nobody except to whine or trade faction BS. The moderators here are excellent at policing signatures.
Jason Kildaro Minmatar Synergy Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 00:13:00 - [82] Originally by: Alowishus Originally by: Nicocat Stupid, whorish little mission runners SHOULD die after all the effort it takes to probe their dumb, putzy asses down. I disagree. I think mission runners should be allowed to make billions in 1.0 systems, risk free, to get faction ships to sell so they can buy other factions ships, make them uber and save even more damsels. That's clearly what CCP envisioned: A bunch of rich mission runners who interact with nobody except to whine or trade faction BS. You need to use you sarcasm tags, Alowishus. You might get misquoted I posted this somewhere else but I think mission running in high sec needs a nerf. Keep the isk the same but change the loot dropped. It's killing the T1 module market. All of these modules are placed on the market below mineral cost and it killed the T1 producers. Funny how mission runners complain about no content yet they contribute highly to the market downfall.
Alowishus Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.11.16 00:24:00 - [83] Edited by: Alowishus on 16/11/2006 00:25:10 I agree with you, Jason. The risk vs. reward of low sec is "screwed up" right now only because it's too easy to make isk in high sec. They need to nerf high sec. When I first started a billion isk was a lot of isk, when I made my first billion I was "rich" but it took a lot of work. Now I see people spending multiple billions on characters, Estamel invulnerability fields, and etc. And I know it's because missions have gotten out of hand. So to answer the original poster's request: NO. And additionally, your life is way too easy already, and I only hope the WCS nerf is a first step toward it getting a lot harder. And if you want to whine or even quit, great! The moderators here are excellent at policing signatures.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 01:20:00 - [84] Well, I'm sure you're all enjoying your "Bash a Carebear" session. That list is quite good, but no, I'm NOT making "more money than I ever did"...that was about 12 months ago, when mission rewards were easily ten times higher than they are now, and Torps were broken so they one-shotted frigates. Loot from missions is now so universally crap I don't sell it, I just refine it for the minerals...they go to my corp and we make stuff out of them. I hope CCP are happy with your encouragement of players to quit...who knows, maybe you can get ALL the carebears to quit, and then you can be happy and all shoot at each other. For about a week, until CCP run out of money. Feel free to bash me in my absence...I won't be here to read about it. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2006.11.16 01:22:00 - [85] Originally by: Alowishus Edited by: Alowishus on 16/11/2006 00:25:10 I agree with you, Jason. The risk vs. reward of low sec is "screwed up" right now only because it's too easy to make isk in high sec. They need to nerf high sec. When I first started a billion isk was a lot of isk, when I made my first billion I was "rich" but it took a lot of work. Now I see people spending multiple billions on characters, Estamel invulnerability fields, and etc. And I know it's because missions have gotten out of hand. So to answer the original poster's request: NO. And additionally, your life is way too easy already, and I only hope the WCS nerf is a first step toward it getting a lot harder. And if you want to whine or even quit, great! say you nerf high sec to oblivion. what does that do? NOTHING people will just go straight to 0.0 from empire like they do now. ( if they leave at all)
Jason Kildaro Minmatar Synergy Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 01:37:00 - [86] Originally by: Grey Area Well, I'm sure you're all enjoying your "Bash a Carebear" session. That list is quite good, but no, I'm NOT making "more money than I ever did"...that was about 12 months ago, when mission rewards were easily ten times higher than they are now, and Torps were broken so they one-shotted frigates. Loot from missions is now so universally crap I don't sell it, I just refine it for the minerals...they go to my corp and we make stuff out of them. I hope CCP are happy with your encouragement of players to quit...who knows, maybe you can get ALL the carebears to quit, and then you can be happy and all shoot at each other. For about a week, until CCP run out of money. Feel free to bash me in my absence...I won't be here to read about it. So I bring up points to counter your arguement and now I'm bashing a carebear? I said it before. I am not a pirate. So your "you can all shoot each other now" remark is just weak. You can make money now and you can make even more ISK in Kali with the same risk...WTF are you complaining about? Do you run missions in Empire with three stabs now? I doubt it. If you have been here since retail you would know that the "this will kill Eve" comment has been said so many times it is getting old. Loot is crap because so many people are putting it on the market from low risk missions that it does not sell anymore. Making items from loot is good, free ISK. Again, what is the problem? You don't have to go to low sec and you will still make money? What's the problem? Warp to 0 offsets the nerf to WCS. What's the problem? Really. I don't understand what this nerf means to you.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 01:39:00 - [87] Originally by: Jason Kildaro Keep the isk the same but change the loot dropped. It's killing the T1 module market. Missed this and worth a passing comment. If by this you mean just take out all the T1 crap that drops, and only have a can drop for something that is rare and/or worthwhile...sure, I'd support that. The ISK I'd lose from refining all that junk (it doesn't all get sold, 99% of it is recycled) I'd make up in time for not going back to loot a can that turned out to contain another civilian shield booster. Would be nice to know in advance that opening a can would actually be worth the effort. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 01:46:00 - [88] Originally by: Jason Kildaro So I bring up points to counter your arguement and now I'm bashing a carebear? Jason, important though you are, you are NOT the only person in this thread... Originally by: DiuxDium Wahh, I don't want to have to look at local. Is all I see honestly. Originally by: Alowishus As opposed to the 12-year-old casual whiner? That kind of talk really is what defines MMO players whiney sore losers. The ones who imply that different styles of play indicate IRL inferiority. CCP told you what this game would be like, a PvP game, you don't like PvP yet you play anyway and we get to listen to you whine about it. Please please please quit. Originally by: Jason Kildaro So stop with the little man gets boned crap. Originally by: Nicocat Stupid, whorish little mission runners SHOULD die after all the effort it takes to probe their dumb, putzy asses down. Originally by: Jason Kildaro Funny how mission runners complain about no content yet they contribute highly to the market downfall. Originally by: Alowishus And additionally, your life is way too easy already, and I only hope the WCS nerf is a first step toward it getting a lot harder. And if you want to whine or even quit, great! I think that's a fairly wide range of carebear bashing. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Alowishus Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.11.16 02:02:00 - [89] It's not carebear bashing, it's whiner bashing. A lot of carebears don't wine and thus I do not hope they quit. There are carebears in this game who are smart and don't ask to be ganked. I like them, they can stay. Whiner bashing. Not carebear bashing. The moderators here are excellent at policing signatures.
Phenom Fighter Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.16 02:04:00 - [90] You'll just have to learn to play the game thats all... be paranoid Anyway im just wondering.... Ur in ur deadspace right... a gang of pirates scan you down (im guessing 3au's eventually) which will most likely lead them 30-60km from you if not more... you cant cloak or use MWD in deadspace. How the HELL does he get you?!! omfg!! dude, sort it -----------------------------
Sovereign533 Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.11.16 02:07:00 - [91] come on... low sec isn't safe... and isn't supposed to be safe... wanna go there, live with it... don't like what might happen, stay in empire... Originally by: Sovereign533 Time will tell, sooner or later, time will tell... Second sig removed, only 1 signature graphic please - Xorus ^_^WOOHOO!!! my Sig finally got nerfed...
goodby4u	Posted - 2006.11.16 02:21:00 - [92] Keep in mind im no pirate,i pvp in 0.0 sometimes but never in just lowsec...I live in highsec too. That being said i like what they are doing to WCS,i mean if you wanna fight dont fight and run whenever anybody comes near you. Oh and grey,mission running in lowsec will now mean you have a risk of dying,you had a risk before but the solo pirates couldnt kill you,now somebody has a fair chance at killing you and your mad about it?If the ability to be completely safe is what you seek then theres a highsec for a reason.
Dark Kavar	Posted - 2006.11.16 03:00:00 - [93] I don't mind at all that wcs are getting nerfed, never use them anyway. I actually enjoy the risk that comes from low sec, otherwise it gets boring. And if you actually pay attention in local and be a bit cautious you will usually never get ganked, I actually managed to mine by myself in a retriever with no wcs in low sec for a couple of weeks without getting ganked. So don't whine that you have to put in some effort
Naal Morno ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.16 03:10:00 - [94] Originally by: Krulla Originally by: Grey Area Edited by: Grey Area on 15/11/2006 19:31:06 You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? In fact, it's going to worsen the lag problem in Empire...people will move away from agents who even MIGHT send them below 0.5...bye bye Vuorassi...hello Motsu. ... Grow some balls tbfh? I do level 4 missions in lowsec. Not only do I do them in lowsec, I do them in Amamake. For those who don't know Amamake, it's basically the most pirate infested system in the game. Doing missions in lowsec is almost completely safe, as long as you have a brain and know how to use it. WEll, brain has nothing to do with it...a broken scan probe system however does a lot. In Kali1 the probe system is much improved and I think you will find yourself in pod a lot if you keep doing things the same you were to date... _________________________________________ Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous.
Rockbox Amarr Veto.	Posted - 2006.11.16 04:18:00 - [95] Originally by: Grey Area Edited by: Grey Area on 15/11/2006 19:31:06 You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? In fact, it's going to worsen the lag problem in Empire...people will move away from agents who even MIGHT send them below 0.5...bye bye Vuorassi...hello Motsu. Why would you put wcs on a mission running ship Visit us at VETO FORUMS!!1!
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 04:46:00 - [96] Originally by: Rockbox Originally by: Grey Area Edited by: Grey Area on 15/11/2006 19:31:06 You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? In fact, it's going to worsen the lag problem in Empire...people will move away from agents who even MIGHT send them below 0.5...bye bye Vuorassi...hello Motsu. Why would you put wcs on a mission running ship So you didn't have to fight PCs. Why else? If other PCs didn't jump mission runners while they were doing their missions no mission runner would want to mount them. --------------------------------------------------- MMORPG == Massively Moronic Online Raw Powergaming Grief fests.... Play something different: EvE LowSec != NoSec
Perani	Posted - 2006.11.16 05:49:00 - [97] There are two issues that were either directly addressed or indirectly alluded to that have since faded into the background a few pages ago. (1) Why should ships be allowed to fit scramblers without penalty? (2) Why does watching local have to be part of anyone's pvp experience? Local is a chatting tool abused as a source of intelligence. Or am I mistaken, that local is meant to be the intelligence tool that it is today?
Elderberry Whine	Posted - 2006.11.16 05:50:00 - [98] The point is that he ain't coming to low sec for a gank, He's coming cause he supposed to be "forced" there for the so-called high rewards of low-sec hunting. Well, if the rewards was so great, he would go there without WCS's As it is, Since Low-Sec is crap, with hordes of pirates waiting to pick ya clean, why would he go ther without stabs? So he won't go, and low-sec will be even more empty. Pirates have the advantage in low-sec because they don't care about their empire standing so they lock u up and get the jump on ya. So there's no reason for a carebear to go in low sec now, since he can't stab out of the stacked deck setup for the pirates. If he could engage fairly without a security hit, then yeh, why would he need a stab? So the stab gives him a fair out of the situation. Otherwise, he gets toasted because he's already in lag, and behind in damage. You pierates all know that so you want stabs out. Will you got ur wish, after a few easy kills, no empire carebear is gonna be stupid enough to come back low-sec after the stabs are gone. Originally by: goodby4u Keep in mind im no pirate,i pvp in 0.0 sometimes but never in just lowsec...I live in highsec too. That being said i like what they are doing to WCS,i mean if you wanna fight dont fight and run whenever anybody comes near you. Oh and grey,mission running in lowsec will now mean you have a risk of dying,you had a risk before but the solo pirates couldnt kill you,now somebody has a fair chance at killing you and your mad about it?If the ability to be completely safe is what you seek then theres a highsec for a reason.
Jason Kildaro Minmatar Synergy Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 06:21:00 - [99] Edited by: Jason Kildaro on 16/11/2006 06:25:12 So let's look at the other side of the coin. Make the rules and mechanics allow a mission runner to do whatever they want where ever they want. After all, why should you play this game the way the PvPers want? You should be able to log on night after night and run missions in peace. Unnerf stabs so that they become a must have device that allows you to travel and make isk without risk. This would make mission running a more viable profession and now you are free to make money at will. You would not have to buy items becuase it is safe to loot a mission. You don't have to buy ships because you can gather LP to have faction battleships to make your mission running even easier. You don't have to mine because you can recycle loot. You don't even have to use the stabs much anymore because it will force pirates to 0.0. You don't have to buy transports because a hauler is safe. You don't need friends to help you on these missions. You don't need corps because what is the purpose in having to band together? You don't have to worry about implants because LP will get you those too. So now you can skill faster so that you can run better equipment to run more missions which will allow you more LP to get more equipment and ships which will allow you run more missions. Heck, why buy clones because you should not be have to worry about being killed? You just want to relax and run missions after your long day at work. And after a while we will have a game full of mission runners who can peaceably run missions without having to worry about those bad ol' pie rats. What then? Oh yea, whine to CCP about how boring the game is and how they need to introduce more challenging AI in the game to make your missions more interesting and have a reason to band together. Then whine about how there is nothing to do in this game but grind missions. Then we can whine about how crafting is useless because there is no incentive to make anything. Then we can whine to CCP about how we need to introduce something for the advanced players and get bigger ships to counter the new NPC's and AI. But then the new ships will be to strong so you will whine about how there is no new content and how CCP should introduce more missions and new NPC's. Hmmmm. Can you see where this is going?
Death Merchant InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.16 06:35:00 - [100] Originally by: Jason Kildaro Edited by: Jason Kildaro on 16/11/2006 06:25:12 So let's look at the other side of the coin.< good stuff> **** youre good "What happens in Deklien stays in Deklien".
Jason Kildaro Minmatar Synergy Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 06:37:00 - [101] Edited by: Jason Kildaro on 16/11/2006 06:42:41 Edited by: Jason Kildaro on 16/11/2006 06:38:23 Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Jason Kildaro So I bring up points to counter your arguement and now I'm bashing a carebear? Jason, important though you are, you are NOT the only person in this thread... Originally by: DiuxDium Wahh, I don't want to have to look at local. Is all I see honestly. You got me here. That shot was fired first. But only after 5 -6 posts tried to reason with you. Originally by: Alowishus As opposed to the 12-year-old casual whiner? That kind of talk really is what defines MMO players whiney sore losers. The ones who imply that different styles of play indicate IRL inferiority. CCP told you what this game would be like, a PvP game, you don't like PvP yet you play anyway and we get to listen to you whine about it. Please please please quit. Quoting out of context 4TW! Your post previously had said that you fitted stabs to fend off the "12 year old pirates" Originally by: Jason Kildaro So stop with the little man gets boned crap. And this was in response to your post that stated that there is no content for the non-PvPer. I listed 14 things to prove you wrong. Originally by: Nicocat Stupid, whorish little mission runners SHOULD die after all the effort it takes to probe their dumb, putzy asses down. Unwarranted, I give you this one Originally by: Jason Kildaro Funny how mission runners complain about no content yet they contribute highly to the market downfall. This is not bashing. This is fact. Originally by: Alowishus And additionally, your life is way too easy already, and I only hope the WCS nerf is a first step toward it getting a lot harder. And if you want to whine or even quit, great! Maybe the whine or quit comment was a little harsh. I think that's a fairly wide range of carebear bashing. Like a post before me put it. It's not carebear bashing. No one cares about the fact that you do not wish to engage in Eve's other content. But your adversity to their playstyle affects their playstyle. Just like their playstyle affects yours. It is impossible to grant you your wish without intruding upon others.
Jason Kildaro Minmatar Synergy Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 06:51:00 - [102] Grey Area. I hope this does not look like I am atacking you. I am not. But what I do want to bring to thetable is that the PvP aspect of this game brings things to the game that are unique to Eve and makes Eve the game that it is. There is other games that appeal to the more pleasant side of things. And while I hope that one day you stay in Eve (heck, I would even extend a hand to my corp!) I just wish that you would see that there is other games that offer what you want. But please don't try to make this game that way.
Spanker	Posted - 2006.11.16 08:09:00 - [103] Originally by: Grey Area You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec First of all, who uses stabs on their mission ship? Would royally screw everything up. Secondly, any single person attacking my missioning raven would probably be turned in to dust so fast it isn't even funny. Or yes actually, it would be funny. If anything I'll start using a scrambler just to make a point. So no I don't think mission runners will move from lowsec anytime soon! - Shpank
Patric Murphy Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.16 09:00:00 - [104] Originally by: Grey Area Feel free to bash me in my absence...I won't be here to read about it. Can I have your stuff? sorry, couldn't help my self. No, i cant spell, Yes, i have an education. Please try to keep your responses related to what I said, not the typo's.
Naran Darkmood Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.16 09:22:00 - [105] Originally by: BlackMoon Thrawn You would need 5 pionts of scram to hold someone with 4 wcs. Thats part of the issue you need one more point than stab and in amar, alotof minmitar and even caldari ships that gets hard to achieve real fast. on a ship with 3 mids or less the setup will be severely gimped fitting a couple scrams. EVE is not a solo game one needs other people for things but, a dedicated tackling ship should not be a neccesity every time you want to pvp. Hmm, how about bring a friend. (But, yea, only mission runners should have to do that, right). Pick a fight the other one wants to fight as well. (Yes, this means you might loose). For some reason, I get the feeling, everybody uses the same arguments for boths ides. Maybe we mission runners should start a thread for stacking nerfing Warp scramblers ... decrease effictve range when you fit more than one. Back to the point I think the WCS nerf is over the top. At least one WCS should be free to fit with seriously gimping for ship in combat. You might disagree, but i simply disagree with you. Originally by: Patch86 How ironic that "****" (polish) is filtered, but "arse" and "ass" are not. No polish swearing on these English language only forums, or bannage!
FoRGyL Beer and Kebabs Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.16 09:34:00 - [106] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Jason Kildaro I personally research a game before I pay monthly for it, maybe I'm just being presumptious and assume everyone else does too. Hmmm, back when I started playing (18th May 2003) there wasn't exactly a lot of material to "research"...and that's partly my point...a lot of stuff has changed, and largely the nerf bat is most often waved at those who do NOT PVP. Yes, it was always stated that this was primarily a PVP gaem. but back a few years, allowances were made (and IMO, those allowances are what has given EVE it's longevity). but with each patch the non-PVP'ers get less and less to do. Eventually, we have to decided if this IS the game we want to play...for some of us, it is rapidly becoming a differnet game to the one we subscribed to. Geee..all I say is Lv4 in Hisec!! The enorums reward vs risk u get, and u whine to acctually have to use your head now and again??? Even if you do get caught don't you make enough isk to regain it like directly anyway? Common ..look alittle at the hole picture atleast. And to be frank, some sacrifice must be made to get were you want, even if you have made an error in the past. -out- ********************************************************* Pay or don't!
Gix Firebrand	Posted - 2006.11.16 10:02:00 - [107] Edited by: Gix Firebrand on 16/11/2006 10:03:01 As an old school UO player, I approve of the "nerf". It just makes you play smarter. Grey Area's whining is just from lack of experience in MMPORGs..
Laboratus Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 10:02:00 - [108] Edited by: Laboratus on 16/11/2006 10:02:20 Edited by: Laboratus on 16/11/2006 10:02:03 All in all, at the moment the warp scambling system is borked. You should not be able to stop someone warping with a single 20km distrupter. It's way too easy and painless. You should at least have to use a 7.5km or two 20kms. This unneeded WCS nerf further aggravates this problem. Ships have racial propulsion types and strenghts. At some point the system was meant to use them, but it no longer does, if it has ever done so. So, why not use those strenghts and make warp scambling chance based to get rid of this Very _lame_ distrupt/web/jam that leaves you just wobbling about like a lame duck. It's lame, and not interesting. At least make them use a dictor. Chance based. Thank you. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.16 10:21:00 - [109] Originally by: Grey Area At least make the penalty only apply to modules AFTER the first. the current penalty makes it simply impossible to fit any sort of WCS to anything other than a hauler...in fact, if you're going to do this, why not just make the modules hauler-only? Pirates are going to have a field day...I think you've over-reacted to their whining AGAIN...I accept they were being abused...but a penalty for more than one would address that just as well - I'd even be happy with a 75% penalty for each module AFTER the first. At least give the victims SOME chance to get away... This nerf makes the WCS almost redundant, and by the same reasoning, the two point warp scrambler pretty much redundant. Please reconsider. If you fit your ship for pvp ganking its more then fair to force you not to use wcs. If you dont like the risks of pvp be a traveller it's as simple as that.
tiller Beer and Kebabs Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.16 10:35:00 - [110] Originally by: Grey Area Edited by: Grey Area on 15/11/2006 19:31:06 You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? In fact, it's going to worsen the lag problem in Empire...people will move away from agents who even MIGHT send them below 0.5...bye bye Vuorassi...hello Motsu. You also won't see many solo pirates taking on big risky targets. PVP will be greatly reduced as people won't be able to afford sustained losses once wallet runs dry. (and it will) Click me for Pirate Coalition Website of Gankage
Felix Dzerzhinsky	Posted - 2006.11.16 12:10:00 - [111] The problems is that WCS' have been boarderline exploited in PvP for a long time and something needed to change. I will be honest with you though, in Mission running, fast lock times are not a major issue, and while range can be an issue in some spacific cases, those can be overcome by simply turning the mod off. What needed to stop was people fitting setups with WCS' on and going out and killing people with it. Saddly for you, Eve is a pvp game, it started as a pvp game and the older community wishes it to stay that way. With warp to 0kms, and WCS' and whatnot, Eve is trying to make things more palitable for the mission runner/miner type. Last I checked Eve was not a mining sim or a mission/quest game - these things are there to support your income for pvp. And while I understand that some people don't like pvp, it is something you have to learn to like, or find a game which is more controled. I am against the WoWification of eve, and wcs nurf was a good indication from CCP that they agreed.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.16 12:47:00 - [112] Originally by: Grey Area At least make the penalty only apply to modules AFTER the first. the current penalty makes it simply impossible to fit any sort of WCS to anything other than a hauler...in fact, if you're going to do this, why not just make the modules hauler-only? Pirates are going to have a field day...I think you've over-reacted to their whining AGAIN...I accept they were being abused...but a penalty for more than one would address that just as well - I'd even be happy with a 75% penalty for each module AFTER the first. At least give the victims SOME chance to get away... This nerf makes the WCS almost redundant, and by the same reasoning, the two point warp scrambler pretty much redundant. Please reconsider. You can fit to run or fit to fight but not both; where is the problem? ---------- IBTL \o/
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.11.16 13:30:00 - [113] Originally by: Grey Area a lot of stuff has changed .. nerf .. those who do NOT PVP I really wonder how you can reach this conclusion. Say, if killing hapless victims is nowadays much harder than on release, wouldn't that imply nerfs have hurt pirates more than their targets? Also Kali changes (insta 0km, WCS nerf) IMHO help 'carebears' a lot, and are direct heavy nerf on pirates. How you turn it as a move against carebears? Some likely consequences: - PvPers will fit less scrambling power -> when you need to fit a stab, it will be far more effective - Those few gatecamp pirates left will be easier to kill (by anti-pirates etc), or will have more problems to hit on you - Today, if someone bothers to probe your missioning spot, its not probably your feared 12 years old pirate, but small gank squad with enough scrambling power. After Kali, nothing changes except they have less scrambling. Now, if your suggestion of allowing 1 WCS free goes through, nothing really changes from today: PvPers will be forced to fit more scramblers since their opponent (other PvPers) will have stabs anyway. If the nerf happens like planned, then only NPCers can really afford to fit WCS -> you've won already. The planned nerfs is very heavy on PvPers, but only minor inconvenience on NPCers. At most you might have to slighly modify your preferred NPC setup (extra sensor booster) or tactics. -Lasse who only occasionally visits the grey lowsec
Auman Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.16 13:57:00 - [114] Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 16/11/2006 10:02:20 Edited by: Laboratus on 16/11/2006 10:02:03 All in all, at the moment the warp scambling system is borked. You should not be able to stop someone warping with a single 20km distrupter. It's way too easy and painless. You should at least have to use a 7.5km or two 20kms. This unneeded WCS nerf further aggravates this problem. Ships have racial propulsion types and strenghts. At some point the system was meant to use them, but it no longer does, if it has ever done so. So, why not use those strenghts and make warp scambling chance based to get rid of this Very _lame_ distrupt/web/jam that leaves you just wobbling about like a lame duck. It's lame, and not interesting. At least make them use a dictor. Chance based. Thank you. No thanks, chance based ECM is bad enough.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.16 15:29:00 - [115] Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky I am against the WoWification of eve, and wcs nurf was a good indication from CCP that they agreed. Hmm, WCS total nerf is small step to convert Eve into WoW whicth it stupid PvP. With WCS we could hit and run. With WCS noob could try PvP. With WCS hauler and miner had better chance to run from gate camp. With WCS dictors were much more important. With WCS we could meet lone sniping tempest. With WCS we saw lots of expensive ships with factional fit in 0.0 Of course, having good enemy you will be dead in any case either with WCS, or without. Of course, WCS MUST be nerfed to remove stababond and like setups. But why not nerf carefully, CCP? Why every nerf I see in Kali devastates the gameplay we all like? TBH, WCS nerf will not touch me directly(corporation internal rule - no WCS), but it is good example how CCP is solving existing problems. --------------------------------- Hint: Train for Mega, not for Rokh R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM>
Smegma	Posted - 2006.11.16 15:36:00 - [116] /me looks at GA ..... and hands him the extinguisher and anti septic cream .... I'm pretty dissapointed at the state of this thread. GA came up with a good idea for the WCS by allowing one WCS, but making any additional WCS's a pig to use. But a lot of the responces have been abuse in one form or another. Give the bloke a break. This nerf of the WCS should make PVP hit and run more risky but will still give Mission runners a fair ***** at the whip if they fancy a trip into low sec ( and the pirats a chance to scram and gank ). I do think the "jump to 0KM" is just plain pants as it removes any thought process or preperation to move through low sec. It seems that a lot of pirates out there want unlimited access to any mission runner in "their" system ( do i see you name on it? ... no ... though i think Tama will be renamed MDK 01 ... ) , its what they want and their game style ... Great! Good for them. But what if a mission runner doesn't want to engage in PVP because they don't have the ship/weapons/skills/gang/balls? Does it mean that because the mission runner game style doesn't conform to that of the PVP'ers its illegal and shouldn't be allowed on server? ... Hmmm . No. I like this game atm because i can choose to either PVP ( after a bag of 90% sugar Haribo sweeties and a couple of cups of espresso's )or i can choose to carebare it ( the pink one with the rainbow on the front ) in high sec when i'm tired/stressed/hungover/on a low from too much sugar and caffine. Any mission runner who doesn't reccy the system they need to go through and create insta's, or keeps and eye on local deserves a free trip to the clone tank imo. This way it gives the piwats a chance for a kill ( if the mission runner is stupid/careless/reccy'ing ) and it gives the runners a chance to complete the mission or move through. Moving all the lvl4 agents to low sec will be a tad unfair as it will allow the pirats gangs to hump a station and take a fair pop at whoever pokes their nose out..... Some of the posters in this thread need to see things from both sides of the fence and stop being abusive. Take a look at whats being proposed and either discuss it ( agree or disagree ) or refrain from posting. Not WTFBBQ the original poster with T2 anger and attitude. I shall now retire to my new and improved flame retardent bunker .....
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 15:46:00 - [117] I'm not sure where everyone gets the impression that there will be fewer scram modules, if anything the WCS nerf will increase those numbers. Right now if you have more WCS than they have scram you get away. With Kali if they want to have any chance at fighting they can't mount a WCS, meaning that mounting a single scram is guarenteed to stop them. You will see even more scram modules as they are now much more effective. But the one counter has been nerfed. Which means fewer targets in LowSec and fewer targets to hunt.... --------------------------------------------------- MMORPG == Massively Moronic Online Raw Powergaming Grief fests.... Play something different: EvE LowSec != NoSec
Megadon Caldari Deathshead Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:41:00 - [118] Although I am supremely happy with the WCS nerf, I do think CCP may have overdone it with penalizing the fitting of just one WCS. Maybe not, but my problem wasn't with some guy fitting one, but people fitting more than 2 of the things and being untouchable, aka 'Stabbabond'. That kind of abuse just got out of hand. Fitting one on the other hand was a bit like training wheels for new pvp'ers or a safety net for mission runners. It was something that was easily countered with a 2 point scram, but would let someone get away from a 1 point disruptor and I don't really see any problem with that. CCP apparently does and I think that's a mistake.
Crellion Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:31:00 - [119] Edited by: Crellion on 16/11/2006 18:32:17 I used to respect the OP... (then again who am I to talk about wcs... havent fitted one in 2006 I dont think) Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:40:00 - [120] If you like the stab nerf that much you are going to love the changes to the probe system. My estimate is that for a competent prober with good skills it will take around 2-3 min from dropping the first probe until he is warping in on you with 0m accuracy. The window of opportunity you have to see his probes on the scanner to warn you is around 40 sec long. This estimate assumes you are in a BS and the mission take place within 40au from the system center.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.18 09:42:00 - [121] I'm still trying to see how this works... You're PVPers. There are three basic groups within that brand. Alliance fighters, gatecampers and mission runner hunters. Forgive me if I've missed any, as you'll no doubt have gathered by now I'm assessing this from the outside looking in. So the WCS nerf is an obvious change for alliance fighters, and I'd guess that all of them view it as positive...they've been heartily sick of hit & run tactics, and are glad to see the back of it. Though I don't understand why in a large fleet engagement, you couldn't get enough points of scrambling on a ship to hold it...more ships, more scramblers, surely? Failing that, there was nothing stopping you fitting WCS too. Like I said, this may just be the demented ramblings of a carebear. Gatecampers...can't see why you'd support this. It's going to break your sniping ships, BUT at the same time, haulers will continue to fit multi-stabs. Mission runner hunters...you THINK this will work in your favour, but those mission runners who operate on the borders of empire space will simply STOP COMING. My suggestion: Allow ONE WCS without penalty, but increase the penalty for all subsequent WCS to 75%...this means that two WCS would give you the same effective range and lock time as under the current system on Sisi...three would make it even worse. One WCS might actually be enough of a "safety net" to convince L4 mission runners to continue nipping over the border into systems like Nalvula to risk the mission. Without it, we will consider rejecting the mission, and if that is happening too often, we have to consider moving to other agents away from the borders. If you mission run in 0.0 to 0.3, please bear in mind that this probably doesn't apply to you...I'm specifically thinking of edge-of-empire mission runners, who get sent into 0.4 systems that are chokepoints and so are; 1. Heavily populated 2. Frequently camped Regardless of your comments on my choice of playstyle, and my inability to watch local, try and see the bigger picture...there are a LOT of mission runners who think like I do, and those of you who like non-consensual PVP are going to find it harder to find, and when you do, harder to be successful...mission runner numbers will be decreased and haulers will be heavily stabbed. If you are a sniper, you are going to be more at risk from a covert ops warp in. I don't particularly LIKE sniping, and I don't particularly LIKE hit and run tactics...but both of them should remain a valid tactic in what is supposed to be a free combat environment. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Laboratus Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.18 10:38:00 - [122] Originally by: Auman Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 16/11/2006 10:02:20 Edited by: Laboratus on 16/11/2006 10:02:03 All in all, at the moment the warp scambling system is borked. You should not be able to stop someone warping with a single 20km distrupter. It's way too easy and painless. You should at least have to use a 7.5km or two 20kms. This unneeded WCS nerf further aggravates this problem. Ships have racial propulsion types and strenghts. At some point the system was meant to use them, but it no longer does, if it has ever done so. So, why not use those strenghts and make warp scambling chance based to get rid of this Very _lame_ distrupt/web/jam that leaves you just wobbling about like a lame duck. It's lame, and not interesting. At least make them use a dictor. Chance based. Thank you. No thanks, chance based ECM is bad enough. The fact that it is too easy still stands. Then perhaps all ships should have one point of warp core strength as a start, so you need at least 2 points of scram to hold down a ship to start with. That could work too... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.18 11:34:00 - [123] Originally by: Laboratus The fact that it is too easy still stands. Then perhaps all ships should have one point of warp core strength as a start, so you need at least 2 points of scram to hold down a ship to start with. That could work too... No, I'd disagree. A pirate who fits one warp scrambler should have the upper hand against a victim who decides to fitt all cargo expanders, or all damage mods, thus ignoring all "safety" options. BUT, said safety options SHOULD remain viable, and yes, EVEN FOR A SHIP THAT HAS SOME INTENTION TO FIGHT. What should be RIGHTLY nerfed is intending to fight with 4 or 5 (or even 8, on some BS's) warp core stabs fitted without much penalty to effectiveness. But to nerf even ONE so harshly, is too much. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Kunoichi Gallente Fortunis Novum	Posted - 2006.11.18 11:58:00 - [124] Originally by: Grey Area ... So the WCS nerf is an obvious change for alliance fighters, and I'd guess that all of them view it as positive...they've been heartily sick of hit & run tactics, and are glad to see the back of it. Though I don't understand why in a large fleet engagement, you couldn't get enough points of scrambling on a ship to hold it...more ships, more scramblers, surely? Failing that, there was nothing stopping you fitting WCS too. Like I said, this may just be the demented ramblings of a carebear. Some Alliances do not allow their fighting force to fit WCS because it could be used as some "Flaming-Ammo". In addition it is rather pointless if you got stabs or not because in most cases of .0 you will have to face multiple enemys. Even a +6 stabbed Occator might run into problems. Then there is of course the Bubble - If you are unlucky enough to run into one only MWD will help you anyway. So basically no big change for Alliance Fighters Originally by: Grey Area Gatecampers...can't see why you'd support this. It's going to break your sniping ships, BUT at the same time, haulers will continue to fit multi-stabs. The "Warp to 0km" thingy made Gatecamping obsolete. Nobody with brain will warp an Hauler to another range anymore. And if you ever Gatecamped you would know that 95% of the people with instas get away. A welcome change however is the fact that ppl wont be able to fit a rack of WCS on their Sniperguns. Originally by: Grey Area Mission runner hunters...you THINK this will work in your favour, but those mission runners who operate on the borders of empire space will simply STOP COMING. And thats why Hi-Sec-Money-Making needs to be nerfed: It became too easy to make serious money in Hi-Sec. Why should people bother to go into an Plex in lowsec when they can run an lvl4 mission in Hi sec. Why should people rat in low sec for 10 mil/hour when they can mine Kernite in Genesis for 5 mil/h. I am not saying Carebears should go to low sec and get killed but why can't they organize themselfes? Where are the mining ops? Where is the corpwide plexrun? Where is there escort for the Hauler? Simply: Where is the TEAMWORK? Here some examples from my pirating experience: E.g: 2 haulers transported a Small POS thru low sec and got raped by my corpmates Tempest. Now the question: Why do they carry a 100 mil Pos in an IT5 and why is there no escort at all? - Would have been so easy to avoid that loss if the hauler was an Transport or an escort with an sensor dampener would have been with them. Another Example: Mining OP in low sec: 1 Carrier 2 Barges 1 Megathron 1 Ferox We killed the Megathron and the Carrier - The Chimera was actually mining with them. So what could have been done better? 1st) The system they were in was an dead end system - Why didnt they use the Ferox as an scout in order to watch an 8 ship gang coming in? 2nd) Why did the carrier hang out in an belt? and MINE? - Carriers are supposed to be support guys! 3rd) Why did they held that Mining-Op for over 3 hours? if you are sitting ducks you will attract a lot of attention. urgh server coming up - might write more later! ___________________ Kunoichi -think different-
1CE WIND	Posted - 2006.11.18 13:20:00 - [125] I'm going to do something i never thought i would. I'm going to agree with Grey Area. Allowing 1 single stab without penalty isn't that bad to warrant around 5 pages of carebear bashing. You can make a number of points about how 1 wcs is still unbalancing etc. but when you come down to it the only truly, truly annoying thing about stabs was when someone fit upwards of 3 stabs. The compromisedeal of allowing 1 wcs without penalty is a nice mid point between completely nerfing stabs and having them the way they once where. Why you would ever want to fit a single stab is rather beyond me but that is not the point. If these people really want to fit 1 stab on their mission running setups i don't have a problem with it and i don't really think it will affect the game all that much. 1ce Wind (Pirate/Interdictor Pilot)
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.11.18 13:42:00 - [126] Actually I run missions in lowsec, and I NEVER fit a WCS. Neither does anyone else I talk to who is successful at running missions. Keeping an eye on local and/or scanning for probes > WCS. The pirates actually bothering to probe out mission runners are few and far between in my area of operation, and the few that do it can easily be picked up. At the same time I rejoice at the WCS nerf since the pirates fit those a LOT to escape any kind of retaliation. So WCS nerf is actually good for the kind of militant mission runner that I am. The problem I see, and which will probably drive me back to highsec, is the new easy-mode probing system, allowing every happy-go lucky pirate to probe a mission runner out. If every passing pirate is likely to cause me to interrupt my mission in lowsec, I will make more in highsec even with only half the rewards. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Colonel Drego Caldari Angels of the Apocolypse	Posted - 2006.11.18 16:26:00 - [127] Well, what about a single WCS for the mission itself? Often times at least one of the NPCs will have a warp scrambler, but you have no indication of which. If you have a WCS you can get out of the mission if you get in over your head and call for some help, but now with the nerf, that bit of security is gone. No second chances if you get in a bit of trouble.
Voltron Caldari Black Lance Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.18 16:54:00 - [128] Slightly skewed perception of risk vs reward from the OP. Volt It's great touching your own dink isn't it?
Warlord Zinji	Posted - 2006.11.18 18:22:00 - [129] I started reading this post but i was sick in my mouth and swallowed my own bile. I now understand internet rage, now all im thinking about is 1. axe 2. knife 3. chain saw 4. expanding foam up the rusty old sheriffs badge I cant decide maybe all 4
The Fates Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.18 18:52:00 - [130] What's a disgrace here is all these 0.0 alliance people in this thread complaining about empire mission runners. Thats so funny I could cry my ribs hurt so bad. The wcs nerf is fine... it doesn't have anything to do with high sec mission running (if you fit wcs you are underskilled) and if you are in low sec, then you have consented to pvp imo anyway... I have to agree with the "grow a pair" argument in that case. Originally by: My Best Friend You do realize, you could get a college education before you train all those skills?
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.18 20:26:00 - [131] Originally by: Leandro Salazar The problem I see, and which will probably drive me back to highsec, is the new easy-mode probing system, allowing every happy-go lucky pirate to probe a mission runner out. I am sure I referenced this earlier in the thread. It is this proposed change TOGETHER with the WCS nerf that REALLY causes me concern. A single scanner will be able to track us down, and with a single warp scram hold us until we die, since the WCS is too harshly nerfed to fit. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Commoner Caldari Emergent Chaos The Core Collective	Posted - 2006.11.18 22:05:00 - [132] Edited by: Commoner on 18/11/2006 22:12:27 Edited by: Commoner on 18/11/2006 22:10:17 Edited by: Commoner on 18/11/2006 22:06:48 Originally by: Hoshi If you like the stab nerf that much you are going to love the changes to the probe system. My estimate is that for a competent prober with good skills it will take around 2-3 min from dropping the first probe until he is warping in on you with 0m accuracy. The window of opportunity you have to see his probes on the scanner to warn you is around 40 sec long. This estimate assumes you are in a BS and the mission take place within 40au from the system center. Okay so a pirate can scan me out in less than 5 mins?? Gotta get hard to finish a mission in lowsec when the average mission takes about half an hour to complete :O i see one of 3 solutions. 1)Bring a friend 2)Be ganged with corpies so they can warp in on me 3)Find a backdoor lowsec system with no activity in a three mile radius at and a crappy q agent. Solution 1 won't work in many missions since having a wingmate often causes mass aggro from entire stage :) Solution 2 wont work because most missions are deadspace, so you have to travel thru all the acceleration gates. I Chose solution 3 ;) Better start to scan 360 degrees 14au every 60s.
happyapples Caldari Eden Fight Club	Posted - 2006.11.18 22:18:00 - [133] this is dumb. i'm a pirate and i am against the wcs nerf. nerfing wcs will completely remove belt ratters from low sec... and belt ratters are my bread and butter. i really don't mind using a 2pt scram to get ppl! and if they're smart enough to have two stabs fitted, good for them - i really don't mind having to fit extra pts or bring a gang member to get them, and the extra challenge involved is fun! nerf wcs and low-sec npcs will never be shot at again... and this is a very very bad thing for me. this is my first post - i felt that this issue is important enough to register and post about.
Sebmagic Caldari In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2006.11.18 22:23:00 - [134] Grey, I'm a mission runner.... and I have a no-penality WCS all the time. It might not work all the times, but it's a way to look at it the issue. Offer a GOOD ransom (isk isk ISK) to the pirate that jumps you. If your courteous and fast, the pirate might be satisfied by your offer and let you go for now. It's a way to look at things.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.11.19 02:06:00 - [135] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 19/11/2006 02:06:10 Originally by: Grey Area I am sure I referenced this earlier in the thread. It is this proposed change TOGETHER with the WCS nerf that REALLY causes me concern. A single scanner will be able to track us down, and with a single warp scram hold us until we die, since the WCS is too harshly nerfed to fit. IF you are probed out by pirates, I highly doubt they would bring only one point of scrambling in the first place. Would be kinda stupid... So imho 1 WCS wouldn't make a difference. Originally by: Grey Area I can't explain to you how deep this runs. But just take some of the bile, loathing and hatred durected at carebears here (and I DON'T accept that it's directed at whiners...there's no Carebear monopoly on whining, or WCS wouldn't have been nerfed in the first place) and reverse it. If we suggested banning all PVP and turning EVE into one big empire system, forcing you all to run level 4's, what would you do? Would you kow-tow like good little players, or would you simply quit? That is actually a very good point, and one that all these overinflated PvP-egos who think they have a monopoly on determining how the game is supposed to be played should think about a little. Though I read another interesting citation just today that is regrettably very true, especially with most EVE-players: Thinking is hard, therefore most people judge. (Losely translated from german) --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Vinni Caldari Aveatcay Emptorway Intergalactic Freelance Corporations	Posted - 2006.11.19 02:21:00 - [136] Quote: Stabs should only be used for travel, you want to shoot but you dont want to be shot at . You dont need stabs for mission running, I have been scrambled by rats in L3 and L4 missions in empire space. I'm not crazy about the penalty with WCS because of this. If they do away with rats that scramble, then I'm all for it. Don Vinni, Da Boss of Aveatcay Emptorway
Gordan Freeman Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.19 02:28:00 - [137] Edited by: Gordan Freeman on 19/11/2006 02:32:39 I think its time to call the WHAAAAABULANCE. The BEST part about the WCS nerf is these kinds of posts. I'm going to love every day up until the 28 of whiners about all the teir 2 BC's and the WCS nerf.. WCS were abused PVP which is a huge part of eve was becoming next to impossible in low sec with these combined jamming. Im not gonna argue with someone who has only npced his whole eve career cause his opinion will never change so all I can say is. OWNED
BlackMoon Thrawn the Organ Grinder and Company Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.19 02:30:00 - [138] Quote: I'm specifically thinking of edge-of-empire mission runners, who get sent into 0.4 systems that are chokepoints and so are; So basicaly, if you ran missions in a constellation with no highsec or lowsec transitions we wouldnt have to listen to this?
Tyler Lowe Minmatar DROW Org Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.19 03:13:00 - [139] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: Grey Area I can't explain to you how deep this runs. But just take some of the bile, loathing and hatred durected at carebears here (and I DON'T accept that it's directed at whiners...there's no Carebear monopoly on whining, or WCS wouldn't have been nerfed in the first place) and reverse it. If we suggested banning all PVP and turning EVE into one big empire system, forcing you all to run level 4's, what would you do? Would you kow-tow like good little players, or would you simply quit? That is actually a very good point... This is probably the most valid point I've read on the thread. Here's one I'd like to add. Eve is designed with PvP in mind. As a PvE player in a game that focuses on the PvP aspect of play, you accept that you get what's leftover in terms of development time after the PvP portion of the game is enhanced or balanced. You accept the balance in game set in place for PvP and adapt it to PvE. Balancing for PvE is never a good choice. Balancing to please PvE players in a setting like Eve also isn't a good choice. Removing level 4 agents from highsec is simply asking for cancelled accounts, on that I agree. For WCS though... if you accept that mission runners must learn to adapt and use modules/ships balanced for PvP (and I hope you can see this), then you have to show how the use of one WCS without penality will enhance or at the very least not harm that portion of the game. In other words, arguing for a single non penalized WCS for the sake of PvE players isn't going to cut it. In order to do that, you need to ask the players that will be most affected (that would be the PvP oriented players) what they think would be the effect of that non penalized WCS, and if they don't like it, see if they can come up with a work around. Simply being combative when confronted with disagreement won't produce results. The same thing you point to as a theoretical example of forcing a playstyle or hurting a playstyle for the sake of seeing others suffer can be applied to not following through with a substantial WCS nerf. With warp to 0 coming, you'd make PvP all but impossible without one. I'd like to think there is room for both types of players, and all variations in between, but it's mighty hard to come to a co-operative effort to enhance the game for all or any sort of understanding for that matter, if all people do is bicker and flame rather than hold meaningful discussion. The blame game goes both ways, not just from the direction of PvP players aimed at the PvE crowd. Worth considering before accusing anyone that likes getting shot at and shooting back of doing it for the sake of ego. Just some additional food for thought, sorry if the rant went long. J.A.F.O.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.19 03:18:00 - [140] Originally by: BlackMoon Thrawn Quote: I'm specifically thinking of edge-of-empire mission runners, who get sent into 0.4 systems that are chokepoints and so are; So basicaly, if you ran missions in a constellation with no highsec or lowsec transitions we wouldnt have to listen to this? No one MADE you click on the thread... REAL low sec (0.3 => 0.0) is less of a problem 'cos there's less population. 0.4's are a special case because most of them are "gateways to 0.0" and so are heavily camped and scouted. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Shardrael Caldari AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.19 03:20:00 - [141] Originally by: Jin Entres Originally by: Grey Area You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? You're right. Remove L4's from hisec! Originally by: Pinky Denmark Caldari have other options like using rails or train for other ships/weapons...
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.19 03:23:00 - [142] Originally by: Tyler Lowe This is probably the most valid point I've read on the thread. (followed by coherent argument...hard to believe but true) I've posted the idea. Not ONE person yet has said why the idea as given would cause them trouble. They have ***ed about my playing style, about ships with four warp core stabs, about the risk vs reward in empire, about snipers with multiple stabs and gloated about their "pwnage" over carebears and mission runners. Basically not ONE SINGLE person has actually said "this will not work because"... And I'M** defensive? --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Phenom Fighter Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.19 03:49:00 - [143] you mix WCS with turrets/launchers its wrong. It will always be exploited. WCS were made for safe 'travel' not for safe 'pvp/pve' Tho imo with all this 'penalty is too large' thing going on my vote has always been make the **** things high slot. prob solved -----------------------------
BlackMoon Thrawn the Organ Grinder and Company Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.19 03:53:00 - [144] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: BlackMoon Thrawn Quote: I'm specifically thinking of edge-of-empire mission runners, who get sent into 0.4 systems that are chokepoints and so are; So basicaly, if you ran missions in a constellation with no highsec or lowsec transitions we wouldnt have to listen to this? No one MADE you click on the thread... REAL low sec (0.3 => 0.0) is less of a problem 'cos there's less population. 0.4's are a special case because most of them are "gateways to 0.0" and so are heavily camped and scouted. A great point which has nothing to do with my post or what you stated you were specificaly worried about. I will say it again, if you did missions in constellations entirely contained within highsec or >4 low sec what would the problem be?
Tyler Lowe Minmatar DROW Org Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.19 03:58:00 - [145] Originally by: Grey Area And I'M defensive? Yes. But hear me out on that. You have to actively seek that input, since you are asking for a change to a planned game mechanic. I'd find it hard to believe that you expect people to simply stop arguing down the same roads they're used to without some heavy prompting. I know you've been on game forums long enough to know better than that. People understand less than 80% of what they read, and many don't bother to do more than skim a topic and end up with much, much less than an 80% understanding of the intent of the author. People argue points they are comfortable with, even though they may have nothing to do with what you were trying to say. So you're going to have to pursue people and get them to discuss points they may not be comfortable with, things they need to dedicate new thought to. That means showing patience in the face of resistance, and again, seeking out that input. It means not becoming instantly argumentative when you run into someone that disagrees, but rather being prepared to listen to why they think as they do, and I mean really think about what they have to say. It means you may have to ask for the "why's" when they are not provided. It also means being prepared to re-evaluate your own opinion in trying to find common ground and in so doing accept that you may be wrong, which can be a difficult thing. Granted, you may not have success with every person you ask or even with more than one or two, but opening a meaningful discussion of the issue with even one person can allow others to start looking at it from a different perspective than the preset, hardwired, responses they are used to carting out in threads that have been similar to this one. I guess I'm suggesting that being prepared to compromise means acknowledging that you may not and probably won't get exactly what you wanted, but hopefully can find a solution that no one finds completely objectionable. I don't want that to come off as some sort of lecture, I'm certainly no one of importance, it's meant purely to be what I hope is helpful, and constructive advice. J.A.F.O.
BlackMoon Thrawn the Organ Grinder and Company Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.19 03:59:00 - [146] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Tyler Lowe This is probably the most valid point I've read on the thread. (followed by coherent argument...hard to believe but true) I've posted the idea. Not ONE person yet has said why the idea as given would cause them trouble. They have ***ed about my playing style, about ships with four warp core stabs, about the risk vs reward in empire, about snipers with multiple stabs and gloated about their "pwnage" over carebears and mission runners. Basically not ONE SINGLE person has actually said "this will not work because"... And I'M** defensive? first page I think(maybe second). If one stab can be fitted then 2 warp jammers will have to be fitted for pvp. In ships with >4 high slots this is too high of a price to pay imo. You, of course, are entitled ot your opinion. Just don't say there havent been valid aguements from teh other side. The risk vs reward part was a specific argument to the point your play style is being infringed upon. Basicaly, I dont feel your play style (high sec level 4 missions) is valid.
Matrices Reborn	Posted - 2006.11.19 04:42:00 - [147] The WCS nerf boosts carebears in 0.0 more than anything else. In the ASCN-BoB war a lot of BoB slave corp ratters field at least 1 WCS to prevent themselves from being caught and killed by solo raiders. Now as if solo raiders aren't being nerfed enough in Kali, we're going to see ratters fitting WCS without any meaningful penalty. (Who cares about lock time and range in any ratting BS?)
BlackMoon Thrawn the Organ Grinder and Company Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.19 04:47:00 - [148] Quote: The WCS nerf boosts carebears in 0.0 more than anything else. In the ASCN-BoB war a lot of BoB slave corp ratters field at least 1 WCS to prevent themselves from being caught and killed by solo raiders. And so do ascn members. Its commmonplace and will take some getting used to but the nerf is needed. As a side note, is there any reason to bring specificaly inflamitory terms(like bob slave corp) into this discussion?
Thomas Maleficus Caldari Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.19 04:58:00 - [149] You want the privledge of ratting or running missions in low sec? You earn it. That's why the rewards are so high. You have to work and sacrifice. It's not all free you know and tbh if you are in low sec ratting and running missions you have to accept you are going to have some losses but a decent player will make back those losses. Sorry you learn as much by losing as you do by winning. You know the risks of going low sec, deal with it. WCS are not a free pass and they should not be. There are ways of not getting shot in 0.0 anyway, join a corp/alliance or do some dimplomatic negotiations (iskies) for the priviledge to be there. I'm tired of people wanting free unhindered access to low sec/0.0 it wasn't free for those who have established their places there why should it be free for some noob corp mission runner who doesn't have to pay taxes to thier corp and need not care about their corp mates. Hurray for WCS nerf!!!! Pirates stole my signature.
Gordan Freeman Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.19 06:40:00 - [150] Originally by: Thomas Maleficus You want the privledge of ratting or running missions in low sec? You earn it. That's why the rewards are so high. You have to work and sacrifice. It's not all free you know and tbh if you are in low sec ratting and running missions you have to accept you are going to have some losses but a decent player will make back those losses. Sorry you learn as much by losing as you do by winning. You know the risks of going low sec, deal with it. WCS are not a free pass and they should not be. There are ways of not getting shot in 0.0 anyway, join a corp/alliance or do some dimplomatic negotiations (iskies) for the priviledge to be there. I'm tired of people wanting free unhindered access to low sec/0.0 it wasn't free for those who have established their places there why should it be free for some noob corp mission runner who doesn't have to pay taxes to thier corp and need not care about their corp mates. Hurray for WCS nerf!!!! here here
Xendie Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.19 06:47:00 - [151] Grey area, even 5 stabs wont save you from dedicated people that wants to shoot you. they will just decloak a Falcon 5k off you with 32point scrams just as the gank ships come flying in. and then you will be scrammed for 6 and jammed up over your ears and in the end properly ganked. couldnt happen to a nicer whiner. everyone overcompensates for WCS users, often twice the amount actually needed since someone might land out of range or something. Quote:* Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Xoduse Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.19 08:19:00 - [152] If you absolutely must have your one WCS in Kali then put in on, jump thru the low sec gate (where the only possible way you can be ganked is on the other side once warp to 0km hits TQ), warp to your mission, offline the WCS so the penaltys dont apply, run the freakin mission, then online your WCS and whola no harm done. Sure it will take a minute to recharge your cap but you get your free little WCS even in kali. Now please somebody stop the carebear flood. ---------------------
Nemain Amarr Obsidian Asylum	Posted - 2006.11.19 09:26:00 - [153] Edited by: Nemain on 19/11/2006 09:28:06 I'd say the carry one and offline it approach would only work if you have cap charges. As grey area has already said, it's no use if you are jumped mid mission as you cannot get it back on line so defeating the whole reason for having it fitted. I don't know about anyone else but I wouldn't sit there and be shot at while waitin for my cap to recharge, i'd be tanking and so have nochance at all of activating the mod, unless like I said I was using a ship that has cap charges. Personally, I would have given WCS a complete block on locking so that they are used only for travel. However, the ability to run is still every bit as valid as the ability to prevent it. Now in it's current form, wcs on fast moving combat ships is a nightmare to counter, but to make it so that that any combat ship once webbed and scrambled cannot escape is a little too lopsided. Which is essentially what this nerf will mean, as noone in their right mind will fit them for combat, unless they plan on offlining them then use cap charges to online them and run (then we are back to square one, a vagabond with a cap booster in mids could still operate in a similar fashion as now). In my opinion, like I said, WCS should have a flat out locking block. But to prevent an entirely 1 sided web/scramble fest and prevent PVE alienation, I would sugest a sort of WCS equivilent of ECM burst be introduced. Make it so that it is chance based, uses all your cap, has a 10 minute cycle (then if you are caught again, the attacker deserves to be able to stop you), prevents cap boosters running for 2mins and warps you to a random spot. This would prevent abuse, and even though I suspect the majority pvp of pilots would consider it a waste of a low slot, it would still give the option if you think the odds are stacked against you or you are mission running, as a last ditch attempt to escape (a kind of all or nothing mod). That in my opinion is far more balanced, but i am no doubt wrong :)
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.19 10:19:00 - [154] Originally by: BlackMoon Thrawn first page I think(maybe second). If one stab can be fitted then 2 warp jammers will have to be fitted for pvp. In ships with >4 high slots this is too high of a price to pay imo. You, of course, are entitled ot your opinion. Just don't say there havent been valid aguements from teh other side. But the argument is just basically WRONG...there are TWO point warp scramblers...why not fit one of those? Or, as you are so fond of saying..."bring a friend", both of you carrying a scram. And whilst I accept in PVP against OTHER PVPers, sacrificing two midslots is a big penalty, if you are hunting mission runners, I doubt that it will gimp you that much. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.19 10:22:00 - [155] Originally by: Xendie Grey area, even 5 stabs wont save you from dedicated people that wants to shoot you... ...everyone overcompensates for WCS users... So WHY am I having SUCH a hard time getting people to accept just ONE WCS without penalty. And the "offline it" argument has been covered several times...it needs to be active during the mission...that's the whole point. And why is it "fit to fight, OR to run", but not "fit to fight, OR to scramble"? It seems one is forced to pay a very heavy penalty just for the pleasure of running away...what if I fit an ECM burst? That's more "defensive" than "offensive"...I could use it to break your lock and then run...but the WCS means I have to spend an age trying to target you first. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
pigofparadise Minmatar Reavers Hand	Posted - 2006.11.19 11:07:00 - [156] Tbh, the one stab without penalty and each additional 75% thing is good. Of course, i have never ever fitted a stab so i wouldnt know. For the pirates losing all their monies, a decent pvpfrig costs round a mil depending on what ship you use. Ive owned t2 fitted frigs in my 1 mil rifter.
Timmy Bettenson Caldari Total Mayhem. Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.19 11:30:00 - [157] its a great thing, stops combat ships using them for example i saw a killmail of a interceptor with a fricking stab on it if ur not prepared to lose the ship fit stabs, if not don't simple
Comanche Banshee	Posted - 2006.11.19 11:40:00 - [158] Replying to the original post and those on the first page, I'm rather tired so I didn't read all 6 pages Yes the penalties to stabs will hurt a lot of people, but the truth is is that it will hurt them on both sides, pirate or not. I've played both sides of the law and pirates use them a great deal, particularly to escape when they've bitten off more than they can chew. That said yes they are used by mission and plex runners (more the first) as well to escape, but in my opinion they benefit the pirates more. But I'm not going to go into a long diatribe about why they benefit who more, the simple fact of the matter is is that this game is massive, there are more places to go in this game than in any other game ON THE FREAKIN PLANET. Yes, I'm saying you should go somewhere else, to one of the MANY systems that are not used in the game, you know the systems that the server shuts down after a certain amount of time of not being in use (the systems where the gate makes you wait in the traffic loop for 2 minutes to get in), and guess what, they are mostly 0.0 systems, with station, and some even have agents for missions and complexs that are probably better than the ones you're running now. All of which is secluded from major pirate traffic areas and will give you major minerals to mine, rats to kill and potentially lots of plexs and missions to run. Now you give the inevitable question, "Why should I have to move?" Well seeing that at this point it's going to happen whether you like it or not you can either get rocked by pirates again as I am guessing has been happening to you already to make yall complain about it, or you can adapt, and adapting isn't always fun or easy but the sooner you do the better off you'll be. I'm sorry if this is particularly rude for yall, but face the facts that it won't change and acting like you know more than the Devs won't help things. Everytime that something in the game starts to get WAY overused and/or abused it will get get a nerf to ensure stability and that players don't rely too much on one thing, WCS are just the latest such overused item to get nerfed, live with it and move on.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.19 14:59:00 - [159] Originally by: Comanche Banshee potentially lots of plexs and missions to run. Rule 1, as far as I can see...is "all low sec plexs are camped". You can't choose to be a PVE'er AND a low sec complex runner...the two things are incompatible, as you WILL have to battle through the campers first. And, I am sure as soon as Kali delivers the "Oh, HELLO Mr Mission Runner" method of scanning, any system with a half decent quality agent will ALSO be camped. And, whilst you are still drawing breath to shout it...yes, I know..."Risk vs Reward". But where in all this is the risk for the pirates who prey on the mission runners? They know that they are not going to have a hard time beating them, given that they are set up to do missions, and not for PVP. It's not valid to say that the pirates are ALWAYS at risk in 0.0...because they'd be at the same RISK even without the added REWARD of hunting the mission runners. This whole "Risk vs Reward" argument seems to me to translate as "I PVP, and you don't, so I'm better than you". Unfortunately, CCP seem to agree. I wonder if they've counted the number of mission runners in high sec lately, and then multiplied it by $9.95? CCP...don't take the easy way out by simply removing any PVE content to low sec. If you TRULY believe that high sec is making too much money for too little risk, then MAKE THE PVE ELEMENT RISKIER. No one mentions trade runs either, which make an absolute fortune...what are you going to do...move all the commodities to low sec too? Why not instead, re-introduce NPC gate pirates with enough strength to down a freighter? --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
umah	Posted - 2006.11.19 22:52:00 - [160] The reason those systems are empty is because the time vs reward factor is so close to zero its not even worth mentioning. Originally by: Comanche Banshee ... the simple fact of the matter is is that this game is massive, there are more places to go in this game than in any other game ON THE FREAKIN PLANET. Yes, I'm saying you should go somewhere else, to one of the MANY systems that are not used in the game ...
Elderberry Whine	Posted - 2006.11.19 22:58:00 - [161] Harr harr! Spoken like a true pirate me maties... If you can't beat off a pirate blob while fighting fifty mission rats you ain't worth a st at PvE ... Risk vs reward, you take all the risk.. We pierats get the reward... Yarrrrrrfrrrrrweerrrr!!!! Originally by:** Gordan Freeman Originally by: Thomas Maleficus You want the privledge of ratting or running missions in low sec? You earn it. That's why the rewards are so high. You have to work and sacrifice. It's not all free you know and tbh if you are in low sec ratting and running missions you have to accept you are going to have some losses but a decent player will make back those losses. Sorry you learn as much by losing as you do by winning. You know the risks of going low sec, deal with it. WCS are not a free pass and they should not be. There are ways of not getting shot in 0.0 anyway, join a corp/alliance or do some dimplomatic negotiations (iskies) for the priviledge to be there. I'm tired of people wanting free unhindered access to low sec/0.0 it wasn't free for those who have established their places there why should it be free for some noob corp mission runner who doesn't have to pay taxes to thier corp and need not care about their corp mates. Hurray for WCS nerf!!!! here here
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.19 23:35:00 - [162] Originally by: Timmy Bettenson its a great thing, stops combat ships using them No, it dosn't. It stops a lot of players from going into combat. There is a huge difference, and one which will dramatically slash the amount of PvP in the game. //Maya
Thomas Maleficus Caldari Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.19 23:36:00 - [163] Just a thought here, but in regards to pirates getting all the reward while you get all the risk, brings back the point I already made, the pirates corped up support each other in thier corps and share the risk and benefits with thier corp mates. Second, pirates have to contend with other pirates and anti-pirates and biting off more than they can chew (does happen) so they have as much risk as you do with some mitigation due to the fact they are in a real corp. So yeah as I pointed out before the pirates have earned thier place in 0.0. I've been a carebear running missions and I am now a 0.0 pvp pilot, don't cry to me, I know how easy it is to make oodles of iskies in level 4 missions and get all kinds of LP goodies, you've got it good already, especially considering the low risk of .5> security. Knowing from experience you "plight" you'll get no sympathy from me and seriously if you are going to cry "I'll quit if you take away my security blanket" you need to remember it's a game, and if a game upsets you that much maybe you should not be playing then. Pirates stole my signature.
Roy Gordon	Posted - 2006.11.20 00:43:00 - [164] I must be one of the few people who actually agree with both view points here. I have been ganked in low sec space by a player pirate, not an experience I particularly liked but I had to live with it. Had I fitted a WCS, jumped into low sec, docked, took off the wcs, undocked, did the mission, docked, fitted a the wcs, undocked, warped to gate, got home etc I probably would not have had the nasty experience. But, faffing around in low sec is equally as dangerous, I could have been ganked coming out of the base there anyway. It all basically boils down to there being in general two types of players in the game, those who enjoy PvP, and those who dont. And I doubt those in either camp will ever understand why those in the other camp dont enjoy their style of gaming. That which does not kill us makes us stronger. The Universe is ruled by three basic principles- Matter, Energy and Enlightened Self-Interest!
Nicholai Pestot Gallente Havoc Inc	Posted - 2006.11.20 14:10:00 - [165] Learn to NPC in a setup that can PvP. No, seriously. How about you swap out thar them stabs for something that will help you in the fight. Your already going to have one up over the pirate because he has to fit and power a scrammer.Thats a disadvantage that makes up for a large difference in skill points. Alternatively fit those new Kali-brand inertial stabilizers in your lows where the stabs currently reside. An industrial with a full wack of them aligns faster than an inty...im sure your ship will warp out before the guys jumping into your mission deadspace slow-boat to within 20km of you. If your worried about getting jumped by multiple pirates while NPC'ing, then watch local and stop NPC'ing when a pirate raid breezes through.Set every pirate corp you see to negative standings and the new local in kali will be even better at providing free, overpowered intel to you. Use your built in ship scanner periodically when mission running. Guess what, you can see people near you when they start to try and probe you. (currently 4.5 million KM is the danger zone for close range probes but this may change in Kali) If your worried that a lone tackler will sneak into the system and hold you long enough for friends to jump in and nab you...good, you should be. Teamwork > solo every time. I mean this with no insult implied, but if all you are interested in is PvE then eve really isn't the game for you.It would be better for yourself (less stress) if you quit and stop wasting your money on a game that (i hope) will never meet your ideal. ________________ What you do is you store up the rage, let it fester while you gain strength, then use it to gank those weaker than you... and so the circle of life is complete
Radeberger Caldari Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.20 14:24:00 - [166] So have anyone taken the time to find out what systems this guy is doing missions in? Surely it can't be that difficult to pop his stabbed raven. WCS nerf is very much needed, bygone to the stabbers and vagabonds with the low slots filled with stabs, now they'll fit modules that will actually make it perform better . Not to mention the macro ratters you sometimes see in 0.0, ravens stabbed to the brim. Originally by: James Hetfield So ******* What? I've been told i look like Oveur, however i disagree it is he that looks like me
Dragon Lord	Posted - 2006.11.20 14:26:00 - [167] Edited by: Dragon Lord on 20/11/2006 14:28:10 Edited by: Dragon Lord on 20/11/2006 14:27:34 the thing that bothers me is if they move all lvl4s to low sec as was mentioned in a dev blog a while ago. If the proposed scan prob improvements go ahead and the wcs's nerf is also put into effect then any low sec mission runner is pirate meat. Why well lets say ur on a lvl4 and u engage the first group a few scrammer frigs scram u and a few bs's attack, so ur popping off the bs's as the frigs take ages with cruise or torps (releasing drones oftern mass aggros the room). So there u are in the middile of a battle when u see a probe on ur scanner, better dock i would think, oh wait i cant the frigs have me scrammed, maybe a minute later a nice gang of pirates jump in pwned. Feck im dead. Thats why its unfair without at least making it more difficult to find mission runners. The changes will make pirating mission runners in low sec v v easy. Maybe if they added a module u could use to disrupt the scan prob and prolong the time it takes to find u.
Ogodei Ra	Posted - 2006.11.20 16:29:00 - [168] "It would be better for yourself (less stress) if you quit and stop wasting your money on a game that (i hope) will never meet your ideal." Exactly. Just quit. Stop arguing. Apparently thats what everyone wants you to do. Thats what im going to do. I guess the less players, the better the game. Theres plenty of fun, fair, pvp games to play. I tried some pirating in Eve, and to be honest, I thought it was kind of boring. I guess popping defenseless ships isnt exciting for me. I had the same problem in WoW when all the pvp moved into the battlegrounds. I just didnt get much satisfaction from ganking people in the world exping or herbing or whatever. Half the time they dont even fight back .... kinda like pirating in Eve. Oh well, no big deal. Like I said, lots of other cool games to play. My prediction is that this will backfire on all the pirates. You will see even less targets/victims than before. Although its funny that Eve is setting new population records .... with stabs in place. Im curious to see if they will break another population record anytime after the stab nerf.
Gokil MetaForge	Posted - 2006.11.20 16:39:00 - [169] Originally by: Grey Area At least make the penalty only apply to modules AFTER the first. the current penalty makes it simply impossible to fit any sort of WCS to anything other than a hauler...in fact, if you're going to do this, why not just make the modules hauler-only? Pirates are going to have a field day...I think you've over-reacted to their whining AGAIN...I accept they were being abused...but a penalty for more than one would address that just as well - I'd even be happy with a 75% penalty for each module AFTER the first. At least give the victims SOME chance to get away... This nerf makes the WCS almost redundant, and by the same reasoning, the two point warp scrambler pretty much redundant. Please reconsider. lol op
DarkElf Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.20 16:53:00 - [170] Originally by: Grey Area At least give the victims SOME chance to get away... I'm not gonna read the whole thread cos it's too dam long but i think this statement sums up this complaint. If you serious think that without stabs you have no chance to get away then you just lost eve. DE
Carnye Dubro Caldari Shock and Awe	Posted - 2006.11.20 17:22:00 - [171] I think the point of this discussion is this: 1. A combat ship that doesn't fit one stab will be totally susceptable to a single scrambler (once it hits). 2. If a combat ship fits one stab, it totally gimps it's combat capabilities. 3. Once warp scrambled, you're dead. (assuming a gang attack) What Grey Area is proposing will make warp scrambling a little less the "I win" button. You could fit ONE stab without penalty allowing you a quick chance to get away before all of the blob descends on you and scrams you up tight. Imagine if fitting a module for increasing your sensor strength vs ECM jamming applied the same penalties...
Leverton Caldari AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.20 17:46:00 - [172] It is as simple as this. If you intend to fight, then you don't fit warp core stabs. If you intend to "run the blockade" as it were, then you do fit them. That's it. -- The universe is governed by the aggressive use of force. Hows this for a little note! Oh, and YARRRRR!! - Petwraith I prefer the term RAWR - Xorus
Kai Jyokoroi The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.11.20 18:20:00 - [173] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Timmy Bettenson its a great thing, stops combat ships using them No, it dosn't. It stops a lot of players from going into combat. There is a huge difference, and one which will dramatically slash the amount of PvP in the game. To be honest, if the only people that are going to stop pvping or ever coming into lowsec are the people who always used to fit two stabs, good riddance to 'em. I'm no pirate -I like to fight people who like to fight back, but even so, I think if this change means we never see people like the OP in low-sec again, that's fine with me. Cancel your subscription. If you've got a ~50 mil SP character and you're STILL not willing to do what this game was actually designed for, and just want to accrue vast amounts of stuff and be lovey-dovey to everyone, Final Fantasy XI is ----> way. If you've got half a brain you can make billions of isk with a t2-fitted (no faction gear, or stabs) BS and some clever choke-point running (t2 fast hauler with OMG STABS) in 0.0. I certainly do. I also have an empire mission runner alt with political and military connections training to 5 atm, and that makes silly amounts of LP per mission. If all you want is to do that, high-sec is enough for you. You can make enough isk per week to pay the outrageously inflated prices for Core-X loot that real players are happy to spend 1 hour getting and shifting to idiots like Grey. I LOVE selling officer loot to carebears, so please, stay in Empire. People who are never ever willing to risk anything should seriously just stay in high-sec where you can happily carebear away out of sight and away from our server nodes, or just quit the game. Simple as that. _____________ The day I receive my first moderator forum-sig hijack is the day I realise I have won Eve.
Greenbolt	Posted - 2006.11.20 18:24:00 - [174] But my major point for posting..Most people say if you want a PVE only game..quit playing eve...I ask you this. Eve mail me the name of a MMO that has a great corp alliance system uses space combat as a theme and has several thousand people to interact with on a constant basis. Ive looked. Eve is not only the best MMO to date ive found ..its also the only Space based MMO that I can find presently running. Maybe when Pirates of the burning sea comes out (which will be ship based pve/pvp but based on forum posting PVP is easily avoided wile experiencing the full pve/crafting side of thigns...) people will have an alternative. But right now they dont. so blow it out your ear and live with the fact that people who dont like PVP at all play eve because there isnt much choice for the Scifi Spaceship type fan. and related : Ive never used stabs on non travel ships (Yeah I stab/nano my supply ships up. wish I could fly T2 industrials). I live in low sec and run L4s plus some pvp. While missioning I have yet to be attacked. The only risk is running the pipes in and out of mission zones - which travel wcs setups are for. This could change in Kali depending on how easy it is to scan Mission runners.. and im on more kill mails than death mails at present...so im a carebear with teeth.
Majutsu Caldari S.Y.N.D	Posted - 2006.11.20 18:25:00 - [175] What about running the missions themselves? My only signifcant ship loss in my 10 or 12 weeks so far in Eve was my Brutix that got scrammed on an L3. Ouch. Since then when I do mission I fly with a WCS. I'm all for encouraging more PvP, I try and do a little everything, I rat, I mine, I run missions, I try and PvP (note try ) but this certainly will have an impact on even those mission runners who never leave high sec, there are certainly L3 and L4 missions with scramming NPC's.
Kai Jyokoroi The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.11.20 18:27:00 - [176] Originally by: Grey Area Unfortunately, CCP seem to agree. I wonder if they've counted the number of mission runners in high sec lately, and then multiplied it by $9.95? Aside from me flaming you in the last post (I get that way when talking about carebears, sorry ) I think you've nailed it on the head there. They obviously have, and they obviously know that after 6 months in Empire most people are godawful sick of it, and then start pirating or join a 0.0 corp. I'd guess around 80% of people do that. They WANT more pvp. They WANT less people in Empire. They WANT pve in Empire to be much less worthwhile than in <0.4. They WANT to force people like you to take risks. All you have to do to confirm this is read the devblogs, and look at the way the game has developed. It is only going to get worse for you. Now, sell your character to me for isks _____________ The day I receive my first moderator forum-sig hijack is the day I realise I have won Eve.
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.11.20 19:36:00 - [177] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 20/11/2006 19:57:47 Originally by: Grey Area At least make the penalty only apply to modules AFTER the first. the current penalty makes it simply impossible to fit any sort of WCS to anything other than a hauler...in fact, if you're going to do this, why not just make the modules hauler-only? Pirates are going to have a field day...I think you've over-reacted to their whining AGAIN...I accept they were being abused...but a penalty for more than one would address that just as well - I'd even be happy with a 75% penalty for each module AFTER the first. At least give the victims SOME chance to get away... This nerf makes the WCS almost redundant, and by the same reasoning, the two point warp scrambler pretty much redundant. Please reconsider. WCS were only ever intended to be used for TRAVEL not combat If you want to fight then fit to fight. If you want to travel relatively safely then fit to travel. I swear people... grow a pair. 1) Watch local: It'll now show standings. Just make sure you have any known pirates set to - standings. If you see a - show up in local then be prepared to bail on a moment's notice. 2) Fight ALIGNED in lowsec... this is NOT a tough concept. 3) Fight AWAY from the warp-in point. Don't sit right on top of it. Duh... even if they warp in you will still have time to warp away before they can scramble you. And as a bonus you have warp to 0 now. So be aligned to a jump gate or station or safe spot or even an asteroid belt. There is no need for stabs in a mission in lowsec. The only time I fit stabs on a ship is when I'm moving a new ship out to 0.0 (or back from there) or carrying valuable cargo. That's the ONLY time you NEED a stab. Especially now.
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.11.20 19:40:00 - [178] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 20/11/2006 19:54:01 Originally by: Angus McLean Originally by: Grey Area Edited by: Grey Area on 15/11/2006 19:31:06 You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? In fact, it's going to worsen the lag problem in Empire...people will move away from agents who even MIGHT send them below 0.5...bye bye Vuorassi...hello Motsu. Exactly. Pirates whined and wanted WCS's removed so they could pirate easier. Now they just wont see anything in 0.0 and whine again. Thus bring us back to the WCS idea. My idea? Take all of Empire out of the game except say 30 systems that everyone starts in. AKA to have a fun game that way, expand. The Repricussions? Some alliance takes over all the 0.0 surrounding empire thus blocking nubs in. No, the reprecussion would be 75% of the player base quitting. don't believe me? Take a look at the population of empire vs. the population of lowsec and 0.0 COMBINED sometime.... I'm all for the WCS nerf but you folk who insist on begging CCP to remove Level 3's and 4's from highsec are crazy. Put the 5's in lowsec/0.0 and have done with it and quit trying to get empire space nerfed. It serves a valuable purpose both for carebears AND for PVP players. So hush already.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.22 19:48:00 - [179] Originally by: Taram Caldar 3) Fight AWAY from the warp-in point. Don't sit right on top of it. Duh... even if they warp in you will still have time to warp away before they can scramble you. Well I'll just "Duh" right back at you...go fly a mission called "Enemies Abound part 1 of 5"...let me know how far you get from the warp in point in say...10 minutes (which by all accounts is how long it will take a pirate to find you under the new scanning rules) Since I know you won't bother...five support frigates immediately target you and web you down to about 0.1 m/s. Until you have killed them (which takes a while due to combination of low sig radius and high resists) you'll be lucky to move more than 1km from the warp in point. And to those saying EVE may not be the game for me. I can't argue that if we are talking about the EVE of the future - but the EVE of the past has made plenty of allowances for "carebear content"...I mean, what's the point of writing all those missions if they don't want anyone to fly them? I doubt I'll quit...I'll adapt. I'll stay out of low sec space, and, if they remove level 4 missions to low sec space only, I probably WILL drop down a ship class and do level 3's. but either way, there's nothing CCP have done that will tempt me out into 0.0 space. Since that is their avowed intent, and looking at this thread I am not ENTIRELY alone...I'm just suggesting they rethink is all. Taking stabs away makes carebears feel less safe. If they feel less safe, they are less likely to travel. Everyone has said that a single warp stab won't really make any difference...but it makes us FEEL safer. More of us will risk teh trip to 0.0, which means more of us for the pirates to shoot at. I guess we'll all just have to wait and see. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.22 19:55:00 - [180] This whining thread still going? WCS needed nerf badly and I'm certain 99% people who live in something else than hi-sec actually love this change. Grey Area KALdarI is coming for you... we are ready. Are you? -------- The BoB model is bad for business. Incidently the BoB model is more suited for a game such as WoW where as the ASCN model more suited for Eve. McGreedy
Inowen	Posted - 2006.11.22 21:43:00 - [181] Originally by: Grey Area No, I'd disagree. A pirate who fits one warp scrambler should have the upper hand against a victim who decides to fitt all cargo expanders, or all damage mods, thus ignoring all "safety" options. BUT, said safety options SHOULD remain viable, and yes, EVEN FOR A SHIP THAT HAS SOME INTENTION TO FIGHT. What should be RIGHTLY nerfed is intending to fight with 4 or 5 (or even 8, on some BS's) warp core stabs fitted without much penalty to effectiveness. But to nerf even ONE so harshly, is too much. In all your ramblings you have obviously failed to even approach the point. It does NOT matter what you are doing in low sec space, you are at some point going to die. No one is 100% safe in this game ever, anywhere. But by choosing to go into low sec you choose to have your ship attacked and destroyed at some point. You should not be able to make yourself virtually immune to any and all attacks in low sec space by fitting stabs. Stay out of low sec, run missions in .5 and above and never worry about mission runner ganks, or go into low sec and risk being destroyed. Keep your WCS I used to be a mission runner/miner and I think this WCS nerf is the best thing ever. Try to see the point that when you enter .4 and below you are subject to pvp no matter how much you want the iskies and to be safe in low sec.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.22 22:31:00 - [182] A lot of people here tell me that one WCS does not make you safe. Then they tell me that they reject my request because I shouldn't be safe. I wish you'd all make up your minds. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Earthan Gallente The Amazing Fire Eaters	Posted - 2006.11.22 22:35:00 - [183] Originally by: Grey Area At least make the penalty only apply to modules AFTER the first. the current penalty makes it simply impossible to fit any sort of WCS to anything other than a hauler...in fact, if you're going to do this, why not just make the modules hauler-only? Pirates are going to have a field day...I think you've over-reacted to their whining AGAIN...I accept they were being abused...but a penalty for more than one would address that just as well - I'd even be happy with a 75% penalty for each module AFTER the first. At least give the victims SOME chance to get away... This nerf makes the WCS almost redundant, and by the same reasoning, the two point warp scrambler pretty much redundant. Please reconsider. Well from wha ti have heard its 50 % penalty to targetting speed and range.I guess you can also kill npc with such a penalty , just a bit slower or fit sensor booster? - A knight in space,war veteran. The Amazing Fire Eaters webpage
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.22 22:41:00 - [184] Originally by: Earthan Well from wha ti have heard its 50 % penalty to targetting speed and range.I guess you can also kill npc with such a penalty , just a bit slower or fit sensor booster? On some missions yes...but in Kali being "a bit slower" will lead to more pirates finding you, due to new scanning methods... Also, certain missions will simply be IMPOSSIBLE with a 50% increased lock time and reduced range. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Colonel Drego Caldari Angels of the Apocolypse	Posted - 2006.11.22 22:41:00 - [185] Having a single WCS on my ship has saved my ass many times DURING MISSIONS from MISSION NPCs. Yes, they do scramble and no, you cannot tell which is doing it. Currently I am trying to aquire a jump clone in empire, so I have to do these missions. This little nugget of info has been mentioned time and time again in this topic, but has been glossed over every single time. Sometimes, whne no one is around to help you, you just plain have to warp out. Now, you won't be able to if the support frigate swarm found in most higher level missions gets anywhere near you.
Mephistos Just-fun Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.23 01:02:00 - [186] First off to Drego, turn your effects on, and look for the one with the little blue things coming out of it, that's the one that's scrambling you. WCS NEEDED to be nerfed. With 2 of them on a combat ship and some semi intelligent piloting I can be nearly invincible, and that's not even mentioning the things like stabbed up vagabonds that have enough dps to kill a couple enemies, mwd out of some range and still warp with a few points on them. For the people that want to fly in low sec running missions with 1 stab, just throw a sensor booster in the mid, it might hurt your tank a little bit, but it will counter act the penalties for the most part, and the missions are easy enough as is, that one missing mid isn't going to gimp you too much. This nerf is NOT for the low sec mission runners, it's for all the people that have to deal with stabbed up combat ships constantly fleeing us, or the NPC'ers in their ravens with 3+ stabs that just wander around with impunity not having to risk anything to be out in 0.0 space.
Jacob Cerathi Minmatar M3rcs Inc	Posted - 2006.11.23 02:21:00 - [187] It's more than slightly hypocritical. Activating a Warp Scrambler should not be a guarantee that your target cannot get away. If it is, then you put scrams on the list of things that have no counter. Things that have no counters = bad. Unfortunately, the howling, whining mob can't see past the "If I want you to fight, you should have to fight!" mentality, and apparently CCP is catering to them. Sad.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.23 08:08:00 - [188] Originally by: Jacob Cerathi It's more than slightly hypocritical. Activating a Warp Scrambler should not be a guarantee that your target cannot get away. If it is, then you put scrams on the list of things that have no counter. Things that have no counters = bad. Unfortunately, the howling, whining mob can't see past the "If I want you to fight, you should have to fight!" mentality, and apparently CCP is catering to them. Sad. It does not, there's quite a lot of things you can do: a. kill the scrambler b. drain him c. make him lose lock d. fly out of range -------- The BoB model is bad for business. Incidently the BoB model is more suited for a game such as WoW where as the ASCN model more suited for Eve. McGreedy
Earthan Gallente The Amazing Fire Eaters	Posted - 2006.11.23 08:31:00 - [189] I will share you my little secret, prototype cloak can save your butt alot of time when you jump into smal camps, and you sacrifice only on high slot. Cloak at once , allign for warp out point,decloak when enemy is not in warp scrmbling range ( they will be going around trying to decloak you) and warp.It will be almost instantenous if have alligned when cloaked. Not sure if for bs would work, they are really slow , but for industrials it worked pretty good should also for hac.Prolly even for bs. - A knight in space,war veteran. The Amazing Fire Eaters webpage
Laboratus Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.23 09:13:00 - [190] Edited by: Laboratus on 23/11/2006 09:15:32 Edited by: Laboratus on 23/11/2006 09:14:11 Edited by: Laboratus on 23/11/2006 09:13:48 Originally by: LUKEC It does not, there's quite a lot of things you can do: a. kill the scrambler b. drain him c. make him lose lock d. fly out of range Well, true. But every time someone does one of these things someone starts to scream nerf on the forums. a. Inties are too easy to kill b. nerf nos. c. nerf ecm. d. nerf snakes/vaga/whadever. Oh and the best part is. Everyone of these is gonna get nerfed come kali. The WCS as they are/were were just another sub game of wheter the target is fitting 0/1/2/3 poinst of strength so should I how many points of scram should I bring to hold him down 1/2/3/4. Some ppl lose the game and whine on the forums. Unfortunately due to the whiners being bad losers and good forum warriors we lose an aspect of the game. Edit: Typos etc ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Drusus Rensus Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.11.23 16:13:00 - [191] A few things here I'd like to comment on. My understanding is that this nerf was put in place in response to anti-pirate whining as much as pirate whining. It's aimed at the long-range ganker who uses them to ensure that he can get away if you get the upper hand. The idea is that if you start something, you're going to have to stick around to finish it. Thumbs up. As for mission running, it's just a matter of risk/reward, which, as far as I can tell, is the mechanic that makes all of Eve "work". If you want better rewards, you're going to have to take higher risks, which includes becoming a PvP target for those who are hunting you while you're hunting something else. Running a high-level mission SOLO in low-sec is a high-risk activity that rewards richly. Want to lower the risk? Take some friends and fit your ships so that they'll also work for PvP instead of fitting your boat as a solo mission pwnmobile. Lower risk, lower reward. You're seeing this nerf, I'm sure, because CCP saw the risk/reward equation being broken by both solo mission runners and pirating gate-campers. Both activities reward richly, and they weren't risky enough as it stood. Playing a game like this (especially a PvP game) should entail risk. Lots of risk. Lots of sweaty palms, edge of your seat risk. If it doesn't, how does it not get boring? CCP keeping it that way as much as they can is the right move IMO. The last thing that I'd like to say is that the most valuable mod you can have in Eve isn't a WCS. Its called a friend. If your favorite mission running ground is infested with pirates take some time out from your mission grinding, equip your friends, and go turn up the risk on their favorite activity until they decide that the rewards they get aren't worth it, and go elsewhere. Ironically, when you do this, they won't be able to depend on their WCS to run away like they used to. It will come down to a battle of wills between you, and them, which is how it should have been all along. All is right with the world. No?
Derak Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2006.11.23 16:28:00 - [192] Originally by: Grey Area OK...let it die...even before I posted here I knew this would be the reaction. Enjoy yourself at your gatecamps, those of you who ARE pirates (and apologies to those who I may have unintentionally maligned). I just think you might find things are a bit quieter after the patch. i hope they lock this...just wanted to stop in and say only people with brain damage will get killed at gate camps post cali as you can just warp to 0 away...and being able to warp out all the time is ghey :) Free range pilots are happy pilots
jerrard iceni Minmatar Knights of Chaos	Posted - 2006.11.23 18:43:00 - [193] Originally by: Drusus Rensus A few things here I'd like to comment on. My understanding is that this nerf was put in place in response to anti-pirate whining as much as pirate whining. It's aimed at the long-range ganker who uses them to ensure that he can get away if you get the upper hand. The idea is that if you start something, you're going to have to stick around to finish it. Thumbs up. As for mission running, it's just a matter of risk/reward, which, as far as I can tell, is the mechanic that makes all of Eve "work". If you want better rewards, you're going to have to take higher risks, which includes becoming a PvP target for those who are hunting you while you're hunting something else. Running a high-level mission SOLO in low-sec is a high-risk activity that rewards richly. Want to lower the risk? Take some friends and fit your ships so that they'll also work for PvP instead of fitting your boat as a solo mission pwnmobile. Lower risk, lower reward. You're seeing this nerf, I'm sure, because CCP saw the risk/reward equation being broken by both solo mission runners and pirating gate-campers. Both activities reward richly, and they weren't risky enough as it stood. Playing a game like this (especially a PvP game) should entail risk. Lots of risk. Lots of sweaty palms, edge of your seat risk. If it doesn't, how does it not get boring? CCP keeping it that way as much as they can is the right move IMO. The last thing that I'd like to say is that the most valuable mod you can have in Eve isn't a WCS. Its called a friend. If your favorite mission running ground is infested with pirates take some time out from your mission grinding, equip your friends, and go turn up the risk on their favorite activity until they decide that the rewards they get aren't worth it, and go elsewhere. Ironically, when you do this, they won't be able to depend on their WCS to run away like they used to. It will come down to a battle of wills between you, and them, which is how it should have been all along. All is right with the world. No? /signed - this sums it up just right for me. i cant help but think the mission runners are over reacting slightly. lets be honest, pirates arnt really that much of a threat to mission runners and will be even less so after kali with the hp increase and the warp to 0 option. plus, most pirates fly solo or in small gangs of 2/3 peeps. and how many of those gangs have a probe ship with them? very, very few. personally, i know of very few mission runners that have lost their ships to pirates and those who did where ganked at gates/stations. hell! i even used to do lvl 1,2 and 3 missions in low sec (and only in low sec) and i only ever lost one ship (to Save Our Souls - the ebil swine). i can understand how u feel that the wcs nerf will make u more vulnerable to the npcs, but then has been said already - fit a sensor booster. afterall u have already weakened ur tank by fitting a wcs. carebears seem to have alot of common misconceptions about life in low sec. yes, u could die sometime. thats life, it happens and could still easily happen in high sec (afterall u dont have the protection of concord in deadspace, i think, and ur probaley even less aware of whose around you) but surviving in low sec is surprisingly easy. wcs might make u feel safe but it also encourages lazy piloting. plus if u change the nerf on wcs so that the penalty only effects wcs fitted after the first then ccp might as well not bother nerfing wcs at all. all the problems of wcs in the 1st place will still be there
Constantine Arcanum Gallente IMPERIAL SENATE Pure.	Posted - 2006.11.23 18:50:00 - [194] if you have a problem with pirates, shoot them. if you don't want to pvp that seems strange as EVE is a PVP centric game... I helped - Cortes What a shiny and lovely place here - Eshtir Well lets make it a party atleast :D -Xorus RAWWWR!11!!1!2 SIG HIJACK!!11!1 I found it first, get orrrfff moiiii laaannnd - Cortes
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.23 19:25:00 - [195] Originally by: jerrard iceni i cant help but think the mission runners are over reacting slightly. lets be honest, pirates arnt really that much of a threat to mission runners and will be even less so after kali with the hp increase and the warp to 0 option. Warp to 0km doesn't affect in any way priates warping to you on your mission. HP increase doesn't affect it either, as the mission runner will be ECM'd to death and slaughtered like a pig. And in Kali they will be able to find you a LOT easier. Originally by: jerrard iceni plus, most pirates fly solo or in small gangs of 2/3 peeps. and how many of those gangs have a probe ship with them? very, very few. personally, i know of very few mission runners that have lost their ships to pirates and those who did where ganked at gates/stations. I know PLENTY of mission runners who were ganked ON THEIR MISSION...this is NOT about gate camps! Originally by: jerrard iceni fit a sensor booster. afterall u have already weakened ur tank by fitting a wcs. 1. As I've already said, I ALREADY have a sensor booster on my ship...a second one will stack and so will NOT undo the range nerf. 2. how does fitting a different low slot item reduce my SHIELD tank? Originally by: jerrard iceni carebears seem to have alot of common misconceptions about life in low sec. yes, u could die sometime. thats life, it happens and could still easily happen in high sec (afterall u dont have the protection of concord in deadspace, i think, and ur probaley even less aware of whose around you) but surviving in low sec is surprisingly easy. wcs might make u feel safe but it also encourages lazy piloting. OK, so if it's not REALLY safe, what is the objection to reducing the nerf to allow ONE WCS to be fitted? Originally by: jerrard iceni plus if u change the nerf on wcs so that the penalty only effects wcs fitted after the first then ccp might as well not bother nerfing wcs at all. all the problems of wcs in the 1st place will still be there That's a ridiculous statement. With the change I suggested you wouldn't see the multi-stabbed snipers and Vagabonds. but you might actually see the odd mission runner in 0.4's...without it...well...post here when you get lonely. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
B0rn2KiLL MicroFunks	Posted - 2006.11.23 20:46:00 - [196] Edited by: B0rn2KiLL on 23/11/2006 20:45:57 make all high sec low sec, make all low sec 0.0. then slap me in a ninja spacesuit n give me a shotgun oh, and tbh, i personlly hope ccp reconsiders, give it a 100% penalty for fitting one, then starting with the second, your highslots start going offline, or taking off 1k grid. --- new sig, Hijack it and ill eat u. *Imaran hands B0rn2KiLL a fork - Come get some!11
Laboratus Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.23 20:52:00 - [197] Edited by: Laboratus on 23/11/2006 20:52:18 Edit: Never mind. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Scordite	Posted - 2006.11.24 18:28:00 - [198] I figured out how to solve this problem by the way, it's quite simple. Make pve (missions in particular) more similar to pvp. This way, if you set up for mission running, you will be able to fight back against pirates. Hell, running missions will even train you for how to do it as well. This way mission runners will feel safer, and probably also have more fun running missions. Pirates will get more interesting fights, and more useful loot. More ships will be blown up, so miners and industrialists make more money. Everyone wins. Well, that's the concept. I will leave it up to CCP to figure out how to do it ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.24 18:59:00 - [199] Scordite: a good idea. Basically, improve the fairly lamentable AI that the NPCs use. I'm not here saying level 4 missions are hard...they aren't "AFK" as some PVP'ers would have you believe, but it is true that once you've done a mission, next time it's easier...because they NEVER change. A little bit of randomization in missions would be no bad thing. And yes, if it can be structured so that an NPC spawn works in the same way as a PVP spawn, then that might help...but at least ONE thing needs to be fixed before that, and that is the overpowered nature of ECM...if they give all the NPCs three multispectral ECM's each and a couple of sensor dampeners, missions would become impossible...in exactly the same way that it is IMPOSSIBLE to beat a pirate gang if they do manage to get the drop on you. Currently, the only counter to ECM, is more ECM...and that makes it a simple numbers game...bring more ships, and you win. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Scordite	Posted - 2006.11.24 19:13:00 - [200] Better AI and variarions in each mission is only one step. It'd also have to be changed so that instead of missions pitting you against a veritable fleet of battleships, battlecruisers, cruisers and frigate support, you'd face the equivalent of small gangs, or hell, even single ships.. Of course, each ship in such a scenario would have to be a lot more of a threat than the puny npcs we know today.. With similar dps and tank to player flown ships of the same type. This removes the focus on sustainable tank that current missions have, which means fitting more gankily (I don't care if it's not a word, you know what I mean) becomes an option, cap injectors become usable and so on.. Basically the only difference between an npc setup and a pirate setup would be the warp scrambler, unless the mission runner actually WANTED to kill the pirates instead of just fighting them off. Admit it pirates, most of you would love more challenging, more willing to fight, more useful loot dropping missioners as well ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.26 21:19:00 - [201] Originally by: Scordite Admit it pirates, most of you would love more challenging, more willing to fight, more useful loot dropping missioners as well You're not encountering the same pirates as me. They want LESS challenging, LESS able to run away and...wel..yes of course they want better loot... --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Ansuru Starlancer The Phoenix Rising Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.26 22:53:00 - [202] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: SN3263827 With the introduction of Warp to 0, a reduction in the usefulness of WCS was absolutely necessary, otherwise mission runners etc would be nigh invincible. People need to stop looking at individual changes in a vacuum and more how they interact with each other. Blah. Warp to 0km is a nice little trick..."Look Mr Carebear, it's perfectly safe, us nasty pirates can't shoot you...come on in" Of course, no one mentions what's going to happen on the OTHER side of the gate. And in the middle of their warp, the bubble you'd been anchoring for the past minute or so activates, and they're sucked out of warp 50km from the gate!!! Brilliant!!
Laboratus Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.27 00:02:00 - [203] Edited by: Laboratus on 27/11/2006 00:02:36 Originally by: Ansuru Starlancer Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: SN3263827 With the introduction of Warp to 0, a reduction in the usefulness of WCS was absolutely necessary, otherwise mission runners etc would be nigh invincible. People need to stop looking at individual changes in a vacuum and more how they interact with each other. Blah. Warp to 0km is a nice little trick..."Look Mr Carebear, it's perfectly safe, us nasty pirates can't shoot you...come on in" Of course, no one mentions what's going to happen on the OTHER side of the gate. And in the middle of their warp, the bubble you'd been anchoring for the past minute or so activates, and they're sucked out of warp 50km from the gate!!! Brilliant!! Um, bubbles only work if they are up before the warp starts. Thats why for example dictors can warp and launch a bubble... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.29 19:01:00 - [204] Just thought I'd resurrect this one...lots of people in the help chat saying "Why can't I target past 30km any more"? Also posts on the mission forum about how impossible it's going to be to run missions in low sec... --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Sae Marr Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.29 19:08:00 - [205] Best change ever. Please don't change a thing -
Exogene	Posted - 2006.11.29 22:12:00 - [206] Looks like most people here never heard of a sensor booster before...It is a long overdue change, gj CCP
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:16:00 - [207] Stop with the smug "Sensor booster" answer already. My regulr fitout HAS a sensor booster...if I fit a second, I will pay a stacking penalty, so it will NOT counteract the nerf. CCP, the penalty is overdone...and now that the changes are on Tranquility I think more people will start to comment on it. Change it to 75% penalty, but ONLY for every WCS fitted AFTER the first. That means two stabs would be as badlt nerfed as currently, three would be even worse, but fitting ONE would be an option. It was not ONE stab that was the problem, it was MULTIPLE stabs. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:20:00 - [208] What part of "not on combat ships" don't you understand? Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:24:00 - [209] sigh "Not on combat ships" "Fit to fight OR to run" Keep trotting out your little cliches boys, and don't EVER stop for a second to wonder what might happen to the the actual GAME you play. And why don't you have to "Fit to fight OR to scramble"? --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:26:00 - [210] Originally by: Grey Area Mission running setup is not good for PVP. You mean "Mission-running setup that can pwn all Level 4s" is not good for PvP. Quote: PVP setup is not good for mission running. A PvP setup works swell for most level 4 missions. Rogue drones, for example, do similar types of damage as players, so a setup that can handle Infiltrated Outposts is also good for PvP. You're just used to being able to solo all of the level 4s. Now you need help for the more difficult ones. That's good. Quote: I just won't run missions in low sec any more. Boo frickin' hoo. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:28:00 - [211] Originally by: Grey Area Just thought I'd resurrect this one...lots of people in the help chat saying "Why can't I target past 30km any more"? Also posts on the mission forum about how impossible it's going to be to run missions in low sec... I run them all the time in low sec, and have even been jumped by pirates in my mission deadaspace. I have yet to be popped by any of them, and I don't use WCS at all. Quit acting like a baby. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:31:00 - [212] Hehe. Two or three posts into the resurrection of the thread, and we're already into the "Let's hurl insults at the OP" mode. Fire away. Still no one has said why ONE warp core stab would break the game...ok, so you need TWO points of tackling...now what was it you said again...oh yeah...Boo Fricking Hoo. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:33:00 - [213] Originally by: Grey Area sigh "Not on combat ships" "Fit to fight OR to run" Keep trotting out your little cliches boys, and don't EVER stop for a second to wonder what might happen to the the actual GAME you play. And why don't you have to "Fit to fight OR to scramble"? Yeah, I thought long and hard about it. That game is today, and I'm happy. "Fit to fight or scramble" is like saying "Breathe or live". Without one, the other is meaningless. Fitting to fight or run is fine. If you don't want to fight, you don't. You run like a little girl (which is fine if you are going to lose). What is not fine is ships set up for combat be able to engage, and then leave at will with impugnity if things look even at little dodgy. One stab and five have the same effect on PvP: you can leave when scrambled unless the opposition fits specifically to counter your stabbage (not to mention that midslots are generally far more scarce in PvP than lowslots). If you want to run, do it before engaging. You should not be able to try your luck on the off-chance that you should win, and then run if it goes ****-up. I also know you are king-whinetard about missioning, and as such, I'd like to share a secret with you. Ctrl-F11. This (shock horror) tells you when people are coming, so you never get scrambled in the first place! Genius! Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Olev	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:41:00 - [214] hmmm..intresting..finally i can get a hold of those pesky pirates who use stabs, hell i've even seen a crow with stabz,pathetic? indeed.. lets see..fill up al low slots with stavz,chek..some crap in mids and i pu what ever guns i can fit in high.. sounds fun eh? well..now ppl have to use their heads.. and for us guys,meaning more than the smallest?;) i love this change..when did i fit stabz on a ship last time..ohh! it whas when i moved my brand new machariel from Torrinos to VFK,but then i was travlel fited and not intrested in a fight,and when i got up there,combat setup and out and play:) so grow some balls and take chanses.. its fun..maybe u will even start to like it, if u get ****ed,start pvp and see that its fun, i find mission as much fun as watching paint drie..but thats me...P
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:45:00 - [215] Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 29/11/2006 23:45:49 Originally by: Grey Area Still no one has said why ONE warp core stab would break the game... No other modules has a stacking penalty like that. It may not be possible without significant development effort, effort that could be utilized on improving PvP combat. There's your reason. Happy now? -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:56:00 - [216] Originally by: Guillame Herschel Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 29/11/2006 23:45:49 Originally by: Grey Area Still no one has said why ONE warp core stab would break the game... No other modules has a stacking penalty like that. It may not be possible without significant development effort, effort that could be utilized on improving PvP combat. There's your reason. Happy now? There are plenty of "unique" penalties in the game...cloaks that affect lock even when offline, not being able to fit more than one MWD, not being able to activate a cloak if a second cloak is fitted...one more wouldn't hurt. So no, it's not a reason, it's an excuse not to have to look at it too long. The thing that makes me laugh is that you can't see that the SINGLE warp core stab would get you MORE kills, not less...lots of people have been quite clear in this thread that it's not enough to save you...but it IS enough to give a (false?) sense of security. Being able to fit ONE would encourage the odd carebear to put his head over the parapet...without it, we'll stay in empire. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:57:00 - [217] Oh god, I love the "stabs get you more kills" argument. Anyway, I'm out for now. I decided to go screw for virginity. Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.30 00:01:00 - [218] I'm out too. It is, after all, only my opinion that less carebears will venture into 0.4...only time will tell. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Grez Minmatar The Raven Warriors	Posted - 2006.11.30 01:41:00 - [219] This is a game about RISK and PVP. If you do not want these things, and do not like the way the game is headed, stop playing. You're basicly argueing against the foundations of EVE, which is why it's got where it is today. You will not win this battle I'm afraid. So, either adapt and keep playing, or leave. There's no other if's and but's. - Grez --- Cache Clearer Still waiting for a Wrangler-edit!
Soporo	Posted - 2006.11.30 01:54:00 - [220] Edited by: Soporo on 30/11/2006 02:13:35 WT0 increased the PERCEPTION that Low Sec would be a tad safer. Pirates shriek in dismay. WCS nerf increased the PERCEPTION that Low Sec would be much worse for many missioners. Cares/Missioners shriek in dismay. Both have some points, both are subjective, therefore a COMPROMISE would seem in order.CCP mighta done just that. You ask me, they did a better job of complementing these two changes than some I can mention, however I think the Op has a point particularly in light of the multiple Dev comments about populating Low Sec. 1 (ONE) WCS allowed/unnerfed on combat ships wouldnt hurt a **** thing, and you would see more faction fitted BS and missioners and other targets in Low Sec. The missioner gives up a slot and gets a little peace of mind, and with a scram slotted you get the target. Whats the big deal. Hell they are/were talking about trying to figure out how to Dictor Low Sec without making it even more of a ghost town. If they DO allow Low Sec dictors, even with harsh sec status penalties etc (pfft, alts) it would be the biggest backdoor/left field Pirate Nerf ever, worse than Gate Guns were. Just my opinion, but if you think reaaaal hard, you will see why...
Karandor	Posted - 2006.11.30 01:58:00 - [221] My corp is anti-pirate and we LOVE this change. We've lost so many raven kills because of 4+ stabs it isn't funny.
Max Warg Caldari Chosen Path	Posted - 2006.11.30 04:42:00 - [222] I personely belive this is a heavy handed nerf. In the whole scheam of things the scrambler VS stabs thing is good. But now that mounting even just one stab is to make your ship uessless except for crago running is stupid. Pray often out numbered by gankers should have allways been easy to over come the one or two stabs that most would run. Stabs should remain a usefull and viable mod. A smaller penalty of like 20% would stack up very quickly for a pilot that runs more ethen one, 2 would be painfull to say the least, 4 even worse for a vialbe setup. It would be a strait 20% of the original total starting value for each installed mod. A srambler then has what draw back as a mounted mod? Its easy to fit, requires almost no cap, requires you to be simply in range and has no down side then posibly just taking up a slot (just like the original arguments for and wcs nerf in the first place). In general I dont wnat to see all mods have plus side and a minus side, what happens to the basic idea of mounting a thing to improve a base thing. In the case of wcs a nerf that would screw the abusers of the mod (those with full racks of them) is in order.But the curent situation is that wcs are useless. Uesless in that once you mount one you might as well mount 6 because your at such a disadvantage anyway. If one or 2 could be considered as part of a viable combat complement things would be differnt. The out side of gates is where some one that is not set for PVP will be ganked with no real option. If a pilot mounts one for a trip to a mission location then has to disable the mod just to even make an atenmped at running it somethings worng. Mission rats as well as belt rats do scramble (not in most cases) so at this point your going to have to get it right the first time each and every time or your done. The gankers have got a cake walk in comparison. This nerf means that a missin runner has a much less of a chance of compleating a mission with out a small team to ensure that if srambled the team can over come the mission rats before the scrambled pilot is destroyed. The same team idea when aplied to PVP is esential. The 20k scrambler will be come the mod of chice for gankers if not 2 of them to ensure a catch most of the time ( this will catch all but pure travel setups ). The idea that the one on one dual is always dictated by the ganker is going to be a a nerf to the base game play of eve (because mounting even one WCS is to make you combat innept). For the record im in a Vagabond most of the time. Im a PVP pilot and rat for when i need ISK. I love the idea that when i finaly get out to that dam sniper way out there i now stand a chance of catching him, i run 1 20k scrambler. But if that sniper makes a serious effort not to be cought by mounting (2 or more)obsered amounts of wcs and there for gimping his snipe setup then he deservees to get away, i should employ some help or a new tatic. In conclusion 50% targeting nerf per mod is way over done. I would like to see 1 or posibly 2 wcs setups be viable ship setups for most of EVE's needs. This would preserve the professions of the care bare as something you wount losse at more often then you can be sucesfull. Newer pilots in the EVE univers are hurt far worse by this then the veterens. As one of EVE's long time members I have plenty of advantages over newer pilots as it is. Not to mention that under the curent ways of things one only needs to logg off quickly to escape, in wich case this entire discussion is then academic. [:evi
Moksa Nubs. Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.30 05:42:00 - [223] well im not going to read past what the op posted but i agree with him, they should make stabs hauler only =p
Krows Caldari Unified Refining Federation	Posted - 2006.11.30 05:55:00 - [224] I really don't get why we just can't fit one without any pentalty. Just one. I've done my fair share of hunting in low-sec and I'll be honest; pirates are quick to say carebears should work in groups to survive on their missions, why don't you pirates just use groups to counter ONE GOD** WARP CORE STABILIZER? I only ask for ONE, so I actually have a chance against the random pirate interceptor that's just **ing around with me. Pirates sometimes cry worse than carebears. I once supported the Caldari Nation, held their flag high in my hand and kissed the ground of my homeworld. That's done, I see now the horrors of the world; the wrongs committed by putting the dol
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.30 06:00:00 - [225] Originally by: Krows I really don't get why we just can't fit one without any pentalty. Just one. I've done my fair share of hunting in low-sec and I'll be honest; pirates are quick to say carebears should work in groups to survive on their missions, why don't you pirates just use groups to counter ONE GOD** WARP CORE STABILIZER? I only ask for ONE, so I actually have a chance against the random pirate interceptor that's just ing around with me. Pirates sometimes cry worse than carebears. no. stop whining. kthx Because I said so...**
Krows Caldari Unified Refining Federation	Posted - 2006.11.30 06:22:00 - [226] Well aren't you a constructive one. I'm surprised how low quality these boards are considering the supposed "intelligence and patience" required to play this game. Therefore, I must disagree with your childish antics and retort with a " go in the corner and fornicate yourself." I once supported the Caldari Nation, held their flag high in my hand and kissed the ground of my homeworld. That's done, I see now the horrors of the world; the wrongs committed by putting the dol
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.30 09:00:00 - [227] Originally by: Grez You're basicly argueing against the foundations of EVE, which is why it's got where it is today. EVE is INTENDED to be a PVP game. But the majority of subscribers are PVE. Traders + Mission Runners + Miners + Manufacturers + Researchers + Rat Hunters on one side, Pirates and Alliance Fighters (yes I DO make the distinction) on the other. It doesn't surprise me that PVPers don't argue very well...their in game method of going in with all guns blazing seems to have transferred over to the forums is all. And I DO wish people would stop whining on about the "kills they lost to 4+ WCS"...I'm not ASKING for a reintroduction of the OLD system...I'm asking for the ability to fit ONE solitary WCS. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.30 09:10:00 - [228] Originally by: Krows Well aren't you a constructive one. I'm surprised how low quality these boards are considering the supposed "intelligence and patience" required to play this game. Therefore, I must disagree with your childish antics and retort with a " go in the corner and fornicate yourself." Sorry, just too used to the Caldari morons flaming my blastership threads with the same. Stabs should be non combat only. It's far too easy the way it is now to avoid combat/death 100% if you don't want to. You don't need any help from stabs. Because I said so...
Davlos Caldari Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2006.11.30 10:32:00 - [229] Edited by: Davlos on 30/11/2006 10:34:43 My God... I can't believe that I actually bothered to read all 8 pages in detail. As my exclamation mark avatar suggests, I'm a rather new player, and it doesn't take a doctorate in rocket science to figure how to survive in lowsec. I was missionrunning for two months, got god-awful bored with the inane NPC-ing and bugged off to 0.0 If you truly are that risk-averse and demand that everyone must pander to your playstyle, please sell your veteran account (as so proudly stated on your signature) to a 0.0 resident who probably needs it in earnest to make money for his PvP endeavours, use that money to get a WoW account (and lots of gold from sites like IGE.com!) and continue your PvE love. Because that's where I came from, and despite even having lived in PvP servers, it's mind-numbingly easy, and you want the easy way out. From, A very satisfied CCP customer and 4 month-old player. P.S. Skillpoints are mere numbers. My Stabbers don't even have tech2 guns yet but, mmm, they kill. --------------- Davlos Cain 040
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:41:00 - [230] Edited by: Grey Area on 30/11/2006 11:42:17 Four months old and already a true PVPer...you got the "My playstyle is better than YOUR playstyle" attitude off to a tee already. Daddy must be so proud. I play to relax after a hard day. You play for the excitement. Both styles are equally valid. Carebears seem to be more accepting of that than PVPers. I haven't been to 0.4 or lower for ages. This WCS nerf doesn't affect me. The people I think it WILL affect (other than the five-stab-ship users that the nerf was (justifiably) introduced to counter) are; 1. Mission runners in low sec (NOT 0.0...that is a different set of rules) 2. People who prey on mission runners in low sec Whether or not you think the WCS was an "idiot module", it is certainly the case that mission runners who operated on the edge of empire space would fit one or two if they were crossing over into 0.4. The nerf is now so heavy that fitting even ONE is simply not viable. Watching the scanner while in a mission in a busy 0.4 system is NOT as simple as the PVPers would have you believe, and even if it were, the result of it is the same...the PVPers want you to bug out as soon as you see them...but they might not be scanning for YOU. Thus you could end up leaving the system when you weren't really at threat...less missions completed, less ISK earned and possible standing damage as well. The WCS was an extra safety net...if the pirates appeared, you MIGHT get a chance to warp out before enough scrambling points were aimed at you...meaning you could complete more missions. You MIGHT still get dead too....but at least you FELT as though you had a chance. Now, with a combination of improved scanning (even without skills, pirates are finding mission runners in under 5 minutes...most level 4 missions take close to 30 minutes to complete, some more) and the effective removal of WCS, it's not a RISK of PVP when running a mission in low sec, it'a GUARANTEE. The pirates who prey on mission runners PRIOR to revelations knew what they were doing. I had a grudging respect for them. I didn't like what they did, but it was their right to do it. Now, any noob with a scanner can do the same. Mission runners do not stand a chance of doing what they came to do...i.e. to complete the mission. You may think this is going to lead to a killfest for you, and for a couple of weeks I'm sure it will. but as soon as mission runners realise that completion rate of mission in low sec is going to be less than 10%, they will simply STOP COMING. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Grez Minmatar The Raven Warriors	Posted - 2006.11.30 12:01:00 - [231] Grey, you've gone from almost every post, replying with some form of insult "Daddy would be so proud". You're not going anywhere in this thread. This game IS about PVP, wiether you pretend it is or isn't, is none of my concern, or anyone elses. But we're telling you, you're argueing against the foundations of EVE itself, which is rather silly. This nerf, whilst not for the benifit of everyone, is there to stop people fitting them so they can get away easily when someone comes to kill them, which is what you want. You may not want to fit 4 WCS', but you want to fit one, which is just as bad. It stops that person getting their well deserved kill. You are NOT supposed to be able to sit in a mission, and be able to warp out the moment one enemy comes along. There ARE supposed to be risks involved, and you've now entered the world of the REAL EVE. So, I say again. Adapt, or leave. That's all it boils down too. There's no if's, no but's, just adapt, or leave. - Grez --- Cache Clearer Still waiting for a Wrangler-edit!
Davlos Caldari Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2006.11.30 12:11:00 - [232] Edited by: Davlos on 30/11/2006 12:14:20 True blue PvP'er? Um, no. Not me. smiles widely No sir-ee. I will have to confess here that I kinda spend more time in Mito constellation, that ******** of EVE, making money in lowsec missions to recoup my losses due to my massive number of ship losses, to the chagrin of my new employers. Fitting Warp Core Stabs has never even occured to me once as a viable option until a previous corpmate commented to me about it after we put seven points of warp scrambling on a gatecamping Armageddon. But even then, the only time I've ever put WCS onto myself is to have ten of them in my cargo hold just for laughs, when my ship gets popped. You either adapt to game changes or you die. I've been a carebear for up to a decade ever since I began RPG gaming on MUDs, but one can only carebear for so long, much less in one like this that revolves around PvP. Your "concerns" nearly border on demands for consensual PvP, and if you desire to take your argument further, you may end up demanding CCP for instanced zones of this game because unconsensual PvP makes you itch and want to approach the Subordinate Courts. It's not hard to survive missionrunning in lowsec. Adapt. Learn. Doing the aforementioned procedures in the previous posts are like second instincts to me now. It's not hard. If a four-month old newbie like me can do it, why can't you, a three year-old player do it? And of course, daddy has been proud. He taught me to use the systems in my environment for my benefit, not to whine about it. I'm happily reaping my benefits here. If you really, really want a MMO to sit back and relax after a long day's work, EVE is not for you to burst blood vessels over. --------------- Davlos Cain 040
Lorn Yeager Gallente Blessed Souls	Posted - 2006.11.30 12:13:00 - [233] Havent read every page in this thread but... ... why arent you aligned to something when doing your mission? The second someone warps in you warp out. Fit MWD to minimize the transition times when traveling unaligned. Works fine in 0.0. Your escape is ensured only by YOU. Not your modules. Never has been... remember you have to engage warp manually before you fly out. Pre-align = quick warp out. Just a few thoughts. Begin sig: //-> Its Aloha time! Lorn Yeager Blessed Souls
Nicholai Pestot Gallente Havoc Inc	Posted - 2006.11.30 13:01:00 - [234] Originally by: Grey Area I play to relax after a hard day. You play for the excitement. Both styles are equally valid. Prove it. Show me one dev quote that supports your claim.Show me ONE official post,mail or dev chat that states that they intend for people to play the game with zero risk at all times. Before you go off on a long search, heres a quick hint. The people that designed this game and decide what is or isn't a valid method of playing within it introduced the WCS nerf. ________________ What you do is you store up the rage, let it fester while you gain strength, then use it to gank those weaker than you... and so the circle of life is complete
Sammy Xan Caldari Order of the Storm	Posted - 2006.11.30 13:30:00 - [235] Quote: Show me one dev quote that supports your claim.Show me ONE official post,mail or dev chat that states that they intend for people to play the game with zero risk at all times. Show me the post that claim that the attacker should have a guaranteed kill each time he jumps somebody. I think the WCS nerf as it is isn't a bad one. It could turn out to be a bad one ttogether with other factors, such as simplyfied probing of safespotted vessel, resulting in a less secure environment in lowsec. In the end, everybody will adapt his/her own way, either by staying out of harms way, offering less targets, or by learning how to escape without stabs.
Olev	Posted - 2006.11.30 15:17:00 - [236] i think its sad that so old players, 3 years..dont say i dont have the skills? pfft..when u can stop whining at forums and dont be afraid to trie something new..as going in 0.0 with no stabz..i live in 0.0 have done so from i was 1.3mill sp, strange i dont di every time i stick my nose outside the station as i dont fit stabz.. i bet u dont have a single ship without stabz, a crow? pfft..was it u who i saw in a crow with stabz? coz i have seen it..so if ur so **** skilled,how about start to use em then,and stop whining at forums
Zar Dim Minmatar Anus Horriblis	Posted - 2006.11.30 15:39:00 - [237] WCS nerf does not hinder missioners. Because it reduce targeting speed/range. You can fit 3 of them +1 sensor booster and still will be ok for missions. If you fit for close range. For long range fit 2 boosters instead. Yes missions will be a bit more difficult but easy doable anyway. From the other hand stabbed to death gatecampers (Ginger rise! ;) ) fill the pain, so it's not carebear nerf but pirate nerf instead. And those who whine just can't adapt to this change, shame on you!
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.30 19:37:00 - [238] Originally by: Nicholai Pestot Show me one dev quote that supports your claim.Show me ONE official post,mail or dev chat that states that they intend for people to play the game with zero risk at all times...<snip>...The people that designed this game and decide what is or isn't a valid method of playing within it introduced the WCS nerf. They also wrote a load of level 4 missions, which are NOTHING to do with PVP. And as a poster above commented, the new scanning system means pirates can find mission runners in 5 minutes flat...missions take in the main over 20 minutes to complete. Mission Runners WILL be found a lot more easily, and with this nerf, cannot RUN as easily. I've never fitted more than one warp core stab. Fitting Sensor boosters...yeah great...except I ALREADY fit one...so the stacking rule applies, and it won't even undo the penalty of one warp core stab. I've been out into Venal and Pure Blind...I know the risks. but this system doesn't give mission runners a RISK of being ganked...it gives them a GUARANTEE. And yes, I've got a little snotty with some of the pirates...but while we're still in the playground, let me just say, I didn't start it. I made a polite request for a small adjustment (NOT a total undoing) of a nerf, and the pirate/PVP community have come out (no surprise) with all guns blazing. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.30 19:41:00 - [239] Originally by: Olev i live in 0.0 have done so from i was 1.3mill sp, strange i dont di every time i stick my nose outside the station as i dont fit stabz Do you run missions? or do any other activity that require that you stay in the same grid for 30 minutes at time? No, thought not... And anyway as I've said, this is LESS about 0.0 than it is about 0.3 and 0.4's near the edge of empire...much higher population than 0.0's, and everyone and his dog looking for the fat easy kill that is a mission runner. Do you even know if there's a high quality agent in the 0.0 system where you live? I bet they are going to get increasingly crowded with wannabe pirates as well, because obviously they attract the mission runners too. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Jane Vladmir Gallente Warmongers	Posted - 2006.11.30 20:45:00 - [240] Edited by: Jane Vladmir on 30/11/2006 20:48:53 My god! They grew one! Now all we need is L3 and L4 missions in low-sec and they're likely to grow a pair aswell! Originally by: Grey Area Do you run missions? Missions are mostly all located at a safespots. The only risk involved with missions is the risk of falling asleep and thus losing your ship, but not your pod. If you see something on local you can just warp out, if you scan someone nearby you can just warp out, if you can't handle the NPCs you can just warp out, if you see someone at the spot you began the mission you can just warp out. Also, replace warp with log which is an even easier way to escape.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.02 09:41:00 - [241] Originally by: Jane Vladmir Missions are mostly all located at a safespots. WHich can be scanned in less than 5 minutes... Originally by: Jane Vladmir The only risk involved with missions is the risk of falling asleep and thus losing your ship, but not your pod. Which answers my FIRST question...no, you DON'T do missions. Originally by: Jane Vladmir If you see something on local you can just warp out, THus losing income from your mission and a standing loss with your agent Originally by: Jane Vladmir if you scan someone nearby you can just warp out, As above, plus, with the new scanning rules you'd have to scan every 30 seconds or so...L4 missions do NOT allow that kind of relaxation, no matter what you say. Originally by: Jane Vladmir if you can't handle the NPCs you can just warp out, As above Originally by: Jane Vladmir if you see someone at the spot you began the mission you can just warp out. As above. So, all those ways for the mission runner to lose income and standing...you're making low sec look like a REALLY attractive proepct. Plus, NONE of the above are possible if the rats on the mission are scrambling you...but as you don't run missions, you wouldn't know that. Originally by: Jane Vladmir Also, replace warp with log which is an even easier way to escape. Yeah, and just watch all the pirates come en masse to the forums if we start to try that...and anyway, if you're warp scrambled, you'll only log back in to find your ship and probably your pod destroyed. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.

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