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Ewa Quillam Caldari mega mining corporation Astral Wolves	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:47:00 - [31] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 16/11/2006 21:37:05 Originally by: Ewa Quillam I'm very misspleased that u didn't put plain T2 Heavy Missile launchers on the drake with either Fury or Precision Scourge heavies... The graph would be very, very different... Yeah well, there will be more graphs. And why not make one yourself? By the way, Drake with 2 damage mods and t2 heavy launchers with scourge fury: 343 dps out to 40 km. With prec, 264 dps. The 40km range says a lot, with 15km u risk that an interceptor scrams u from 20km and calls for help. I like to have options and assault heavy launchers don't let much of those.
Siakel	Posted - 2006.11.16 22:37:00 - [32] Note also that the Harbinger is the one Tier2 BC that can't tank when in gank setup.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.16 22:41:00 - [33] Edited by: Aramendel on 16/11/2006 22:46:10 Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Clavius XIV Heavy pulse vs 220s? No missiles in the free slots? You may want make fittings a bit more comperable, exageration does noone any favors. Not to mention that if you include realistic transversals or realistic resists you get a lot different picture. You know, even if I did all those things, people would say im just playing the game on paper and I suck. :) Anyway, I just felt the Harbinger looked clearly unbalanced. But maybe thats just me, thinking its wrong to have the same dps as the close range ships out to 20 km.... Oh well. Who cares, really. Game will be what the game will be. :) And as usual you ignore the point people are making and instead are writing essentially nothing, white noise. Let me make it clearer to you: Hurricane cpu & grid left after 6 425mm: 387.5 CPU 831.4 grid Harbringer cpu & grid left after 7 Heavy Pulse: 285 CPU 419.7 grid Care to explain why exactly it is fair to compare the ships which as much different fitting space left? Newflash: it isn't. Your graphics has numerous small errors which all reduce the hurricanes dps. 1.) 220mms instead of 425mms. You used the top guns for the harbringer. So why not for the hurricane? The dps difference is not major, only 5%, but it is there and several small erors result in a larger one. Dfference: 20 dps for barrage, 25 dps for hail 2.) Ineffective drone config. Noone will so stupid to use 3 hammerheads on a hurricane. Those do less dps than 5 hobgoblins and are slower.. With a 30m¦ dronebay the best config are 4 lights and 1 med. Difference: 16 dps 3.) No missile launchers, even though it has plenty of free cpu & grid. Using 2 HAM launchers leave the hurricane with 320 CPU and 615.4 grid, still more than the Harb. Difference: 62 dps Of cource, the best option will be prolly to fit 2 nos (and still have more cpu & grid left the the harbringer). But this does not mean that the HAM dps should be ignored. It means that the nos are worth more than 62 dps, so if anything the dps boost from the HAM is a too small number. And, yes, the harb has 1 free slot it can use for a nos, too. But in order to fit one it does not only need the free slot, but also the grid to mount it. Which vs the hurricane it hasn't. Total dps difference: 98 dps for barrage, 103 dps for hail. This increases the Hurricane dps on your graphs by almost 20%!!! That is a major difference. Either you are not able to post graphs with balanced fitting unintentionally or are doing it intentionally in an attempt to manipulate things. In either case: either do graphs properly with compareable fittings or do not do them at all. Because this way they are worse than useless because the represent a wrong image. Originally by: Ewa Quillam The 40km range says a lot, with 15km u risk that an interceptor scrams u from 20km and calls for help. I like to have options and assault heavy launchers don't let much of those. Exept there are HAM javelins. Yes, I know they will get nerfed. But even if their range gets reduced to something more sensible, they will still be able to hit any ship within scramblingrange exept mabe an arazu/lachesis.
Arushia Nova Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.17 05:38:00 - [34] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Safron Mista Why is the Drake using T1 Missiles while all the other ships are using T2 ammo? Because Caldari pilots like to skew statistics? Note that the Myrmi's drone damage is totally missing also.
BlackHorizon Caldari Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.17 06:01:00 - [35] Very sneaky Jim, as Aramendel already pointed out. If anything, the Hurricane still needs an additional grid reduction by about 50-100 MW.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 06:04:00 - [36] Originally by: Ewa Quillam Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 16/11/2006 21:37:05 Originally by: Ewa Quillam I'm very misspleased that u didn't put plain T2 Heavy Missile launchers on the drake with either Fury or Precision Scourge heavies... The graph would be very, very different... Yeah well, there will be more graphs. And why not make one yourself? By the way, Drake with 2 damage mods and t2 heavy launchers with scourge fury: 343 dps out to 40 km. With prec, 264 dps. The 40km range says a lot, with 15km u risk that an interceptor scrams u from 20km and calls for help. I like to have options and assault heavy launchers don't let much of those. Are you kidding me? Heavy assault missiles can reach over 60km in a drake.
Arcterran Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.17 06:10:00 - [37] McGregor may want to lay off of the statistical analysis and concentrate full time on good ol' fashioned trollerizing (made up word to go with made up graphs )
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.17 06:17:00 - [38] Originally by: BlackHorizon Very sneaky Jim, as Aramendel already pointed out. If anything, the Hurricane still needs an additional grid reduction by about 50-100 MW. That would ruin artillery however, which have massive PW requirements for their mediocre performance. Last Weeks Signature
Pattern Clarc The Priory	Posted - 2006.11.17 06:22:00 - [39] shame on you jim Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 07:47:00 - [40] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/11/2006 07:54:00 Originally by: Aramendel And as usual you ignore the point people are making and instead are writing essentially nothing, white noise. Let me make it clearer to you: Hurricane cpu & grid left after 6 425mm: 387.5 CPU 831.4 grid Harbringer cpu & grid left after 7 Heavy Pulse: 285 CPU 419.7 grid Care to explain why exactly it is fair to compare the ships which as much different fitting space left? Newflash: it isn't. Your graphics has numerous small errors which all reduce the hurricanes dps. 1.) 220mms instead of 425mms. You used the top guns for the harbringer. So why not for the hurricane? The dps difference is not major, only 5%, but it is there and several small erors result in a larger one. Dfference: 20 dps for barrage, 25 dps for hail 2.) Ineffective drone config. Noone will so stupid to use 3 hammerheads on a hurricane. Those do less dps than 5 hobgoblins and are slower.. With a 30m¦ dronebay the best config are 4 lights and 1 med. Difference: 16 dps 3.) No missile launchers, even though it has plenty of free cpu & grid. Using 2 HAM launchers leave the hurricane with 320 CPU and 615.4 grid, still more than the Harb. Difference: 62 dps Of cource, the best option will be prolly to fit 2 nos (and still have more cpu & grid left the the harbringer). But this does not mean that the HAM dps should be ignored. It means that the nos are worth more than 62 dps, so if anything the dps boost from the HAM is a too small number. And, yes, the harb has 1 free slot it can use for a nos, too. But in order to fit one it does not only need the free slot, but also the grid to mount it. Which vs the hurricane it hasn't. Total dps difference: 98 dps for barrage, 103 dps for hail. This increases the Hurricane dps on your graphs by almost 20%!!! That is a major difference. Either you are not able to post graphs with balanced fitting unintentionally or are doing it intentionally in an attempt to manipulate things. In either case: either do graphs properly with compareable fittings or do not do them at all. Because this way they are worse than useless because the represent a wrong image. I have to agree with you that the first graph doesnt show the truth. Ive tried to do better this time and put the largest guns on every ship, and add heavy assault missiles to the Hurricane. Also switched to light drones. I cant mix mediums and lights in the excel sheet, so 5 lights are used here instead of 3 mediums. The dps goes up slightly from them now. I replaced the original graph in the post with the new one, and here is a link as well. I apologize for the first graph, it was pretty crap. I hope this one is better? I didnt use heavy drones on the myrmidon though. Maybe I should? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Spanker	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:00:00 - [41] Not to bring this discussion down to a lower level, but what's all this about the drake ripping everything apart on the test server when the dpds is so obviously lacking in these graphs? I haven't tested anything on sisi myself, only read about it. - Shpank
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:05:00 - [42] Originally by: Spanker Not to bring this discussion down to a lower level, but what's all this about the drake ripping everything apart on the test server when the dpds is so obviously lacking in these graphs? I haven't tested anything on sisi myself, only read about it. My fault. Forgot drones and 2 damage mods.. fixing it... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:11:00 - [43] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/11/2006 08:06:50 Originally by: Spanker Not to bring this discussion down to a lower level, but what's all this about the drake ripping everything apart on the test server when the dpds is so obviously lacking in these graphs? I haven't tested anything on sisi myself, only read about it. My fault. Forgot drones and 2 damage mods.. ok, fixed. Plus, DPS doesn't show the whole picture. For instance, it doesn't show that NOS rules sisi and the drake is immune to it. It also doesn't show a 35,000 shield passive tank.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:13:00 - [44] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Plus, DPS doesn't show the whole picture. For instance, it doesn't show that NOS rules sisi and the drake is immune to it. It also doesn't show a 35,000 shield passive tank. I can add Drake without damage mods to show a passive tank. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Spanker	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:14:00 - [45] One question, how is the turret damage calculated? Does it assume 100% accuracy like with missiles or is it an average over time factoring in misses? - Shpank
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:16:00 - [46] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Risien Drogonne Plus, DPS doesn't show the whole picture. For instance, it doesn't show that NOS rules sisi and the drake is immune to it. It also doesn't show a 35,000 shield passive tank. I can add Drake without damage mods to show a passive tank. No, what I'm saying is that DPS just doesn't show the whole picture on what makes a ship effective.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:17:00 - [47] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/11/2006 08:17:36 Originally by: Risien Drogonne No, what I'm saying is that DPS just doesn't show the whole picture on what makes a ship effective. I know that, but I cant show that in these graphs. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:17:00 - [48] Originally by: Spanker One question, how is the turret damage calculated? Does it assume 100% accuracy like with missiles or is it an average over time factoring in misses? Its the average damage, and it takes into account misses and reload time. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:29:00 - [49] Originally by: Spanker Ok, good show. Only thing I'd like to see now is a dps comparison between Drake, Cerb and Nighthawk (kali version) for missioning purposes - ie. Heavy Launchers with T1 ammo. Can you please wait until just after lunch though because I don't want to exhaust all my entertainment possibilities at once Sure. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Spanker	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:29:00 - [50] Ok, good show. Only thing I'd like to see now is a dps comparison between Drake, Cerb and Nighthawk (kali version) for missioning purposes - ie. Heavy Launchers with T1 ammo. Can you please wait until just after lunch though because I don't want to exhaust all my entertainment possibilities at once - Shpank
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:39:00 - [51] I'd like to see javelin HAMs added to the chart for sure.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:50:00 - [52] Originally by: Risien Drogonne I'd like to see javelin HAMs added to the chart for sure. Added it. The missile have a range of over 100k, but the graph shows the damage WITH drone dps included, so you only have 60k with the damage shown there. From 60k to 100k, the dps goes down with about 100 (out of drone range). --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
MOS DEF E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:02:00 - [53] After having a looka t this graphg i am wondering where all the whgining about the drake is comming from. IT has to be lowest DPS considering it has no tracking at all and will allways hit when in range. The damage that is actually recieved on target is a lot higher compared to turrets that miss! But ofc all the caldari whiners in here would love to have their solo pwn boat!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:05:00 - [54] Originally by: Jim McGregor I replaced the original graph in the post with the new one. I apologize for the first graph, it was pretty crap. I hope this one is better? Yes and thank you. I also apologize for having been a bit harsh with my words, but stuff like this annoys me. Originally by: Jim McGregor Added it. The missile have a range of over 100k, but the graph shows the damage WITH drone dps included, so you only have 60k with the damage shown there. From 60k to 100k, the dps goes down with about 100 (out of drone range). Also, jav HAMs have right now a 560% range bonus. To compare jav rockets have an 180% one and jav torps an 150% of. If those get fixed they will prolly have a range of 40k.
Spaced Skunk Yesodic Nomads Corp	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:43:00 - [55] Hurricane still has an edge, I liked the hurricane before the balance, I still like it now. Its only lose some powergrid (and not much), and 1 turret point. Hurricane still has when compared to rupture(which hurricane with all rights should be compared too, its a bigger version of that); +2 High Slots +1 Medium Slot +1 Low Slot +2 Turret points More HP Obviously on the down side compared to rupture its bigger and slower. So its a battlecruiser. ;) I still think drake should get caracals bonuses though.
Spanker	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:15:00 - [56] Aww bugger they took one of my launchers off. For a while there I thought I was going to get away with it, ah well. But now I really really need one of them cerb/NH/Drake graphs, and probably with a ferox thrown in for good measure, all with Heavy II's and T1 ammo. Or should I stop demanding things and actually learn how to use that spreadsheet? - Shpank
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:20:00 - [57] Originally by: Spanker Aww bugger they took one of my launchers off. For a while there I thought I was going to get away with it, ah well. But now I really really need one of them cerb/NH/Drake graphs, and probably with a ferox thrown in for good measure, all with Heavy II's and T1 ammo. Or should I stop demanding things and actually learn how to use that spreadsheet? Its very easy to use. :) Download here, but you need to change the number of turrets/launchers for the Hurricane/Drake in the Ships tab to 6 for each one. Then you should add the barrage tracking nerf too.. its not in my graphs here, but I have changed it in the excel sheet now to have 75% tracking instead of 100%. Thanks ccp. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:23:00 - [58] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/11/2006 08:46:05 Ok, graph time (changed graph) After receiving lots of comments about the poor graph (and yeah, it was poor), ive tried to replace it with a better one. Feel free to comment. About the tanking abilities I cant show the tanking abilities unfortunately. But Myrmidon has +37.5% repair amount bonus and 50% drone hitpoint bonus for example. Drake 25% shield resists. Harbinger doesnt have anything, and Hurricane doesnt have anything. If you take that into account and then look at the graph, can you understand why the Hurricane got nerfed? I cant. I felt it was balanced and I still do. Now it sucks. Come on Jim. Make a graph that reflects actual fittings, not theoretical maximums. A full rack of T2 neutrons on the Myrmidon?!?! Right. And the same for the Harbinger. No way are you going to get all that to fit and still have room for the essentials. The Hurricane is different as you CAN fit a full rack of 425mm ACs and still have room left over. As for the Drake there arn't really small/med/large versions of heavy or heavy assault missile launchers, so it's not an issue there. And lets see the DPS graph with the Myrmidon limited to medium drones, not 4 heavies. It's just suicide to run 4 heavy drones and no backups. Designing around these maximums is just silly. Because I said so...
Spanker	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:26:00 - [59] Originally by: Jim McGregor Download here Thanks, I'll muck around with it a bit. - Shpank
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:29:00 - [60] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/11/2006 10:30:05 Originally by: murder one Come on Jim. Make a graph that reflects actual fittings Fine. Give me fitting suggestions for all ships that everybody agrees are good, and ill do it. And as for myrmidon, you can do what you want with it. Im going to use it with 4 Ogre II and a rack of dampeners, and laugh while the opponent sits there dying. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate

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