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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:19:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 16/11/2006 20:21:24
Ok, graph time
Harbinger ftw. They better nerf that ship too now that they have made Hurricane and Drake average to poor. If CCP wants the new battlecruisers to suck, they are ALL going to suck.
And im not doing anymore graphs if you think I suck, the graph suck or ccp suck...
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Safron Mista
Amarr
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:37:00 -
[2]
Why is the Drake using T1 Missiles while all the other ships are using T2 ammo?
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Kharakan
Amarr
GREY COUNCIL
Breidablik
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:46:00 -
[3]
"waa waa my stuff sucks now so yours has to suck too"? No thanks, unnerf the drake's rof bonus fer sure but don't ruin amarr even more ¼_¼
 Originally by: Joshua Foiritain (to Dark Shikari)
HAHAHA I KNOW YOUR ACCOUUNT NAME TIME TO DIE
this signature space is claimed in the name of eris, haha I got to him first. neeneer
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:46:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Safron Mista
Why is the Drake using T1 Missiles while all the other ships are using T2 ammo?
Because Caldari pilots like to skew statistics?
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
In Articulo Mortis
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:47:00 -
[5]
For the love of god, DON'T TOUCH THE HARBINGER (anymore)! We already lost some DPS when we got the bonuses switched, and the Harbi CAN'T TANK while the others can. If anything, bring back the RoF bonus (damage bonus belongs to GALLENTE, not AMARR) and un-nerf the Hurricane and Drake (well, change the resist bonus on the Drake to something ganky not tanky).
FOR THE EMPEROR!
The Fourth NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery |
Tsar Maul
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:49:00 -
[6]
Can you do one with Rage HAMs, as if we are comparing BC vs BC then Rage HAMs will do full damage.
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Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:50:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Safron Mista
Why is the Drake using T1 Missiles while all the other ships are using T2 ammo?
Because Caldari pilots like to skew statistics?
I'm pretty sure Jim is a Minmatar guy last time I checked.
Quote:
Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari
Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship
Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
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Andrea Jaruwalski
Caldari
Angel Deep Corporation
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:51:00 -
[8]
Nice job making this graphic look like crap by not giving all the ships the same options in terms of ammo.
Harbinger is still a sweet ship but it seems people can't get the head out of their backholes and realise the tier 2 BC or Tier 3 BS aren't supposed to be better in all aspect to the other already existing ships in the game. They'll have roles, and if you can't figure out a way to use those ships, well.. Don't moan about it.
There's still going to be balancing happening before Kali gets out and ships and "dreams" will be shattered, oh noes.
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Shadowsword
Gallente
COLSUP
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:51:00 -
[9]
Well, because the Harbinger use a lot more cap than the others, doesn't have any tanking bonus (like the hurricane), and is the most vulnerable to EW/Nos, it should be overall the most damaging battlecruiser of the lot.
But overall the state of the upcoming ships is pretty sad. I'll have three years of presence here soon, and I've never been less thrilled by upcoming ships than I am right now.
2 battleships that are already outclassed by their Tier2 counterparts, another that bring nothing new, and one that is actually decent.
And now, 3 battlecuisers that, while not really useless, aren't that good either, and the last that will probably follow them to the same level of so-so.
The more I look into it, the more I think that Tuxford believes a ship that can only tank is an usefull ship. That's true, to some extent: they can tank in a mining op, and tank in a complex while it's buddies do the killing part, and.... that's about it.
Good, efficient ships are those that can do half-gank and half-tank at the same time.
"gank focused", indeed. 
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Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types. |
Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:52:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Captain Raynor
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Safron Mista
Why is the Drake using T1 Missiles while all the other ships are using T2 ammo?
Because Caldari pilots like to skew statistics?
I'm pretty sure Jim is a Minmatar guy last time I checked.
Funny, it says "Caldari" right under his pic and he's always bragging about how many points he has in missiles. Simple fact... he's wrong to use t1 ammo on the drake for that graph. It's nothing but propaganda.
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:54:00 -
[11]
Here's another observation... Is it my imagination or did you just leave the 2 non-turret highslots empty on the hurricane? And the drake too? How bout putting some weapons in there, hmm?
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:57:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 16/11/2006 21:01:10
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Funny, it says "Caldari" right under his pic and he's always bragging about how many points he has in missiles. Simple fact... he's wrong to use t1 ammo on the drake for that graph. It's nothing but propaganda.
No, thats Jim Raynor. I fly minmatar.
And as for putting stuff in the remaining slots, I simply dont know what fits with a tank. If I put stuff there, people will say its a unrealistic setup and I suck. If I dont, then I suck too.
T1 missiles was because the t2 ones didnt really give a big improvement compared to the penalties they have, but if you have a realistic setup for a Drake, share it and ill use it in future graphs.
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Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:57:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Funny, it says "Caldari" right under his pic and he's always bragging about how many points he has in missiles. Simple fact... he's wrong to use t1 ammo on the drake for that graph. It's nothing but propaganda.
That's actually Jim Raynor. Have a look at the guy you quoted ;)
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K8 T
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:01:00 -
[14]
Jim didn't I see you in a Cerb someplace in Caldari space?
I thought you were another Testy McTest aka Calmdown at first.
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:02:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 16/11/2006 21:03:23
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 16/11/2006 21:01:10
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Funny, it says "Caldari" right under his pic and he's always bragging about how many points he has in missiles. Simple fact... he's wrong to use t1 ammo on the drake for that graph. It's nothing but propaganda.
No, thats Jim Raynor. I fly minmatar.
If you don't know how to fit a ship, are you really qualified to be making balance statements about it?
And as for putting stuff in the remaining slots, I simply dont know what fits with a tank. If I put stuff there, people will say its a unrealistic setup and I suck. If I dont, then I suck too.
T1 missiles was because the t2 ones didnt really give a big improvement compared to the penalties they have, but if you have a realistic setup for a Drake, share it and ill use it in future graphs.
I'm sorry but doing a DPS graph without filling all the slots with weapons is an absolutely useless graph. It's exactly like saying "hey, my ship is low DPS if I don't turn on all my weapons!"
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:02:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 16/11/2006 21:02:22
Originally by: K8 T
Jim didn't I see you in a Cerb someplace in Caldari space?
I thought you were another Testy McTest aka Calmdown at first.
Nope, but I hang with them on Scrapheap Challenge... we are all depressed matari. 
And I cant fly Cerb, so it was probably Jim Raynor again. :)
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Audri Fisher
Caldari
The Keep
THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:03:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Here's another observation... Is it my imagination or did you just leave the 2 non-turret highslots empty on the hurricane? And the drake too? How bout putting some weapons in there, hmm?
That's like saying you should put 2 heavy launchers and 4 250 mm tech II rails on a moa when caculating dps... It's not a fair comparison since ships only get the PG to fit a full rack of it's largest guns, not enough to fill up all there highslots with there largest weapons.
Now that the drake isn't worth poo, there will be less justification to do something with the ferox.. 
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Tsar Maul
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:03:00 -
[18]
Still waiting on that graph Jimmy-Boy 
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:05:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 16/11/2006 21:05:16
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
I'm sorry but doing a DPS graph without filling all the slots with weapons is an absolutely useless graph. It's exactly like saying "hey, my ship is low DPS if I don't turn on all my weapons!"
Thats interesting. I always felt the other way around, that setups that doesnt fit with a tank are pretty meaningless to show. Im more interested in setups that work good for general pvp. I dont do blobbing much, so I need a tank.
Otherwise I could put a full rack of the largest guns on there, and 4 damage mods. But it doesnt show what I want to show. Im after practical setups.
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:05:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Audri Fisher
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Here's another observation... Is it my imagination or did you just leave the 2 non-turret highslots empty on the hurricane? And the drake too? How bout putting some weapons in there, hmm?
That's like saying you should put 2 heavy launchers and 4 250 mm tech II rails on a moa when caculating dps... It's not a fair comparison since ships only get the PG to fit a full rack of it's largest guns, not enough to fill up all there highslots with there largest weapons.
Now that the drake isn't worth poo, there will be less justification to do something with the ferox..
I didn't say he should put in the biggest weapons in the class. I said he should fill his weapons slots with a realistic setup. Hurricanes don't run around with 2 empty high slots, and if they choose to fit NOS they've CHOSEN lower DPS.
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Darknar
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:08:00 -
[21]
hmm looks fine to me. as long as caldari stay at about 15km they should win as always..
might be a good idea putting all 8 BC up there
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Graalum
Foundation
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:10:00 -
[22]
can someone link me to the new stats for these ships, don't have eve installed to get on sisi
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Clavius XIV
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:10:00 -
[23]
Heavy pulse vs 220s? No missiles in the free slots?
You may want make fittings a bit more comperable, exageration does noone any favors.
Not to mention that if you include realistic transversals or realistic resists you get a lot different picture.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:12:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Clavius XIV
Heavy pulse vs 220s? No missiles in the free slots?
You may want make fittings a bit more comperable, exageration does noone any favors.
Not to mention that if you include realistic transversals or realistic resists you get a lot different picture.
You know, even if I did all those things, people would say im just playing the game on paper and I suck. :)
Anyway, I just felt the Harbinger looked clearly unbalanced. But maybe thats just me, thinking its wrong to have the same dps as the close range ships out to 20 km....
Oh well. Who cares, really. Game will be what the game will be. :)
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Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:12:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Graalum
can someone link me to the new stats for these ships, don't have eve installed to get on sisi
I don't have the links, but:
Harbinger: 7 turrets, 50% cap and 25% damage bonus, 8/4/6 layout
Drake: 6 launchers, 5% shield res and 25% kinetic damage, 8/6/4 layout
Hurricane: 6 turrets, 5% rof and 5% damage, 8/4/6 layout
Mymidian: No idea
The hurricane has launcher points to fill up it's final highs with, not sure about the Drake + Har.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:18:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 16/11/2006 21:18:31
Originally by: Old Geeza
Originally by: Graalum
can someone link me to the new stats for these ships, don't have eve installed to get on sisi
I don't have the links, but:
Harbinger: 7 turrets, 50% cap and 25% damage bonus, 8/4/6 layout
Drake: 6 launchers, 5% shield res and 25% kinetic damage, 8/6/4 layout
Hurricane: 6 turrets, 5% rof and 5% damage, 8/4/6 layout
Mymidian: No idea
The hurricane has launcher points to fill up it's final highs with, not sure about the Drake + Har.
Myrmidon has +7.5% repair amount bonus and 10% drone hitpoint & damage bonus. Myrmidon have only 6 highs. Not sure about Drakes highs.
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Ewa Quillam
Caldari
mega mining corporation
Astral Wolves
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:31:00 -
[27]
I'm very misspleased that u didn't put plain T2 Heavy Missile launchers on the drake with either Fury or Precision Scourge heavies...
The graph would be very, very different...
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:32:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 16/11/2006 21:37:05
Originally by: Ewa Quillam
I'm very misspleased that u didn't put plain T2 Heavy Missile launchers on the drake with either Fury or Precision Scourge heavies...
The graph would be very, very different...
Yeah well, there will be more graphs. And why not make one yourself?
By the way, Drake with 2 damage mods and t2 heavy launchers with scourge fury: 343 dps out to 40 km. With prec, 264 dps.
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Ewa Quillam
Caldari
mega mining corporation
Astral Wolves
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:40:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Ewa Quillam
I'm very misspleased that u didn't put plain T2 Heavy Missile launchers on the drake with either Fury or Precision Scourge heavies...
The graph would be very, very different...
Yeah well, there will be more graphs. And why not make one yourself?
It seems u're the graphMan around here and it's always easier to criticize than to actually do the job...
You've left me with the impression that u're a person who wants complete analysis, well this one ain't...
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:41:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ewa Quillam
You've left me with the impression that u're a person who wants complete analysis, well this one ain't...
I just click buttons in Excel. The real honor should go to Naughty Boy for creating the excel sheet. His math is uber.
Anyway.. bedtime.. :)
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Ewa Quillam
Caldari
mega mining corporation
Astral Wolves
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:47:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 16/11/2006 21:37:05
Originally by: Ewa Quillam
I'm very misspleased that u didn't put plain T2 Heavy Missile launchers on the drake with either Fury or Precision Scourge heavies...
The graph would be very, very different...
Yeah well, there will be more graphs. And why not make one yourself?
By the way, Drake with 2 damage mods and t2 heavy launchers with scourge fury: 343 dps out to 40 km. With prec, 264 dps.
The 40km range says a lot, with 15km u risk that an interceptor scrams u from 20km and calls for help. I like to have options and assault heavy launchers don't let much of those.
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Siakel
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Posted - 2006.11.16 22:37:00 -
[32]
Note also that the Harbinger is the one Tier2 BC that can't tank when in gank setup.
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.16 22:41:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Aramendel on 16/11/2006 22:46:10
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Clavius XIV
Heavy pulse vs 220s? No missiles in the free slots?
You may want make fittings a bit more comperable, exageration does noone any favors.
Not to mention that if you include realistic transversals or realistic resists you get a lot different picture.
You know, even if I did all those things, people would say im just playing the game on paper and I suck. :)
Anyway, I just felt the Harbinger looked clearly unbalanced. But maybe thats just me, thinking its wrong to have the same dps as the close range ships out to 20 km....
Oh well. Who cares, really. Game will be what the game will be. :)
And as usual you ignore the point people are making and instead are writing essentially nothing, white noise.
Let me make it clearer to you:
Hurricane cpu & grid left after 6 425mm:
387.5 CPU
831.4 grid
Harbringer cpu & grid left after 7 Heavy Pulse:
285 CPU
419.7 grid
Care to explain why exactly it is fair to compare the ships which as much different fitting space left? Newflash: it isn't.
Your graphics has numerous small errors which all reduce the hurricanes dps.
1.) 220mms instead of 425mms. You used the top guns for the harbringer. So why not for the hurricane? The dps difference is not major, only 5%, but it is there and several small erors result in a larger one.
Dfference: 20 dps for barrage, 25 dps for hail
2.) Ineffective drone config. Noone will so stupid to use 3 hammerheads on a hurricane. Those do less dps than 5 hobgoblins and are slower.. With a 30m¦ dronebay the best config are 4 lights and 1 med.
Difference: 16 dps
3.) No missile launchers, even though it has plenty of free cpu & grid. Using 2 HAM launchers leave the hurricane with 320 CPU and 615.4 grid, still more than the Harb.
Difference: 62 dps
Of cource, the best option will be prolly to fit 2 nos (and still have more cpu & grid left the the harbringer). But this does not mean that the HAM dps should be ignored. It means that the nos are worth more than 62 dps, so if anything the dps boost from the HAM is a too small number.
And, yes, the harb has 1 free slot it can use for a nos, too. But in order to fit one it does not only need the free slot, but also the grid to mount it. Which vs the hurricane it hasn't.
Total dps difference: 98 dps for barrage, 103 dps for hail.
This increases the Hurricane dps on your graphs by almost 20%!!!
That is a major difference. Either you are not able to post graphs with balanced fitting unintentionally or are doing it intentionally in an attempt to manipulate things. In either case: either do graphs properly with compareable fittings or do not do them at all. Because this way they are worse than useless because the represent a wrong image.
Originally by: Ewa Quillam
The 40km range says a lot, with 15km u risk that an interceptor scrams u from 20km and calls for help. I like to have options and assault heavy launchers don't let much of those.
Exept there are HAM javelins. Yes, I know they will get nerfed. But even if their range gets reduced to something more sensible, they will still be able to hit any ship within scramblingrange exept mabe an arazu/lachesis.
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Arushia
Nova Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.17 05:38:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Safron Mista
Why is the Drake using T1 Missiles while all the other ships are using T2 ammo?
Because Caldari pilots like to skew statistics?
Note that the Myrmi's drone damage is totally missing also.
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BlackHorizon
Caldari
Umbra Congregatio
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.17 06:01:00 -
[35]
Very sneaky Jim, as Aramendel already pointed out. If anything, the Hurricane still needs an additional grid reduction by about 50-100 MW.
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.17 06:04:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ewa Quillam
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 16/11/2006 21:37:05
Originally by: Ewa Quillam
I'm very misspleased that u didn't put plain T2 Heavy Missile launchers on the drake with either Fury or Precision Scourge heavies...
The graph would be very, very different...
Yeah well, there will be more graphs. And why not make one yourself?
By the way, Drake with 2 damage mods and t2 heavy launchers with scourge fury: 343 dps out to 40 km. With prec, 264 dps.
The 40km range says a lot, with 15km u risk that an interceptor scrams u from 20km and calls for help. I like to have options and assault heavy launchers don't let much of those.
Are you kidding me? Heavy assault missiles can reach over 60km in a drake.
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Arcterran
Amarr
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.17 06:10:00 -
[37]
McGregor may want to lay off of the statistical analysis and concentrate full time on good ol' fashioned trollerizing (made up word to go with made up graphs )
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Aeaus
Tabula Rasa Systems
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.17 06:17:00 -
[38]
Originally by: BlackHorizon
Very sneaky Jim, as Aramendel already pointed out. If anything, the Hurricane still needs an additional grid reduction by about 50-100 MW.
That would ruin artillery however, which have massive PW requirements for their mediocre performance.
Last Weeks Signature |
Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.11.17 06:22:00 -
[39]
shame on you jim
Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.17 07:47:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/11/2006 07:54:00
Originally by: Aramendel
And as usual you ignore the point people are making and instead are writing essentially nothing, white noise.
Let me make it clearer to you:
Hurricane cpu & grid left after 6 425mm:
387.5 CPU
831.4 grid
Harbringer cpu & grid left after 7 Heavy Pulse:
285 CPU
419.7 grid
Care to explain why exactly it is fair to compare the ships which as much different fitting space left? Newflash: it isn't.
Your graphics has numerous small errors which all reduce the hurricanes dps.
1.) 220mms instead of 425mms. You used the top guns for the harbringer. So why not for the hurricane? The dps difference is not major, only 5%, but it is there and several small erors result in a larger one.
Dfference: 20 dps for barrage, 25 dps for hail
2.) Ineffective drone config. Noone will so stupid to use 3 hammerheads on a hurricane. Those do less dps than 5 hobgoblins and are slower.. With a 30m¦ dronebay the best config are 4 lights and 1 med.
Difference: 16 dps
3.) No missile launchers, even though it has plenty of free cpu & grid. Using 2 HAM launchers leave the hurricane with 320 CPU and 615.4 grid, still more than the Harb.
Difference: 62 dps
Of cource, the best option will be prolly to fit 2 nos (and still have more cpu & grid left the the harbringer). But this does not mean that the HAM dps should be ignored. It means that the nos are worth more than 62 dps, so if anything the dps boost from the HAM is a too small number.
And, yes, the harb has 1 free slot it can use for a nos, too. But in order to fit one it does not only need the free slot, but also the grid to mount it. Which vs the hurricane it hasn't.
Total dps difference: 98 dps for barrage, 103 dps for hail.
This increases the Hurricane dps on your graphs by almost 20%!!!
That is a major difference. Either you are not able to post graphs with balanced fitting unintentionally or are doing it intentionally in an attempt to manipulate things. In either case: either do graphs properly with compareable fittings or do not do them at all. Because this way they are worse than useless because the represent a wrong image.
I have to agree with you that the first graph doesnt show the truth. Ive tried to do better this time and put the largest guns on every ship, and add heavy assault missiles to the Hurricane. Also switched to light drones. I cant mix mediums and lights in the excel sheet, so 5 lights are used here instead of 3 mediums. The dps goes up slightly from them now.
I replaced the original graph in the post with the new one, and here is a link as well.
I apologize for the first graph, it was pretty crap. I hope this one is better?
I didnt use heavy drones on the myrmidon though. Maybe I should?
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Spanker
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Posted - 2006.11.17 08:00:00 -
[41]
Not to bring this discussion down to a lower level, but what's all this about the drake ripping everything apart on the test server when the dpds is so obviously lacking in these graphs? I haven't tested anything on sisi myself, only read about it.
- Shpank |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.17 08:05:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Spanker
Not to bring this discussion down to a lower level, but what's all this about the drake ripping everything apart on the test server when the dpds is so obviously lacking in these graphs? I haven't tested anything on sisi myself, only read about it.
My fault. Forgot drones and 2 damage mods.. fixing it...
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.17 08:11:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/11/2006 08:06:50
Originally by: Spanker
Not to bring this discussion down to a lower level, but what's all this about the drake ripping everything apart on the test server when the dpds is so obviously lacking in these graphs? I haven't tested anything on sisi myself, only read about it.
My fault. Forgot drones and 2 damage mods.. ok, fixed.
Plus, DPS doesn't show the whole picture. For instance, it doesn't show that NOS rules sisi and the drake is immune to it. It also doesn't show a 35,000 shield passive tank.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.17 08:13:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Plus, DPS doesn't show the whole picture. For instance, it doesn't show that NOS rules sisi and the drake is immune to it. It also doesn't show a 35,000 shield passive tank.
I can add Drake without damage mods to show a passive tank.
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Spanker
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Posted - 2006.11.17 08:14:00 -
[45]
One question, how is the turret damage calculated? Does it assume 100% accuracy like with missiles or is it an average over time factoring in misses?
- Shpank |
Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.17 08:16:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Plus, DPS doesn't show the whole picture. For instance, it doesn't show that NOS rules sisi and the drake is immune to it. It also doesn't show a 35,000 shield passive tank.
I can add Drake without damage mods to show a passive tank.
No, what I'm saying is that DPS just doesn't show the whole picture on what makes a ship effective.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.17 08:17:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/11/2006 08:17:36
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
No, what I'm saying is that DPS just doesn't show the whole picture on what makes a ship effective.
I know that, but I cant show that in these graphs.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.17 08:17:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Spanker
One question, how is the turret damage calculated? Does it assume 100% accuracy like with missiles or is it an average over time factoring in misses?
Its the average damage, and it takes into account misses and reload time.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.17 08:29:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Spanker
Ok, good show. Only thing I'd like to see now is a dps comparison between Drake, Cerb and Nighthawk (kali version) for missioning purposes - ie. Heavy Launchers with T1 ammo.
Can you please wait until just after lunch though because I don't want to exhaust all my entertainment possibilities at once 
Sure. :)
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Spanker
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Posted - 2006.11.17 08:29:00 -
[50]
Ok, good show. Only thing I'd like to see now is a dps comparison between Drake, Cerb and Nighthawk (kali version) for missioning purposes - ie. Heavy Launchers with T1 ammo.
Can you please wait until just after lunch though because I don't want to exhaust all my entertainment possibilities at once
- Shpank |
Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.17 08:39:00 -
[51]
I'd like to see javelin HAMs added to the chart for sure.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.17 08:50:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
I'd like to see javelin HAMs added to the chart for sure.
Added it. The missile have a range of over 100k, but the graph shows the damage WITH drone dps included, so you only have 60k with the damage shown there. From 60k to 100k, the dps goes down with about 100 (out of drone range).
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
MOS DEF
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.17 09:02:00 -
[53]
After having a looka t this graphg i am wondering where all the whgining about the drake is comming from. IT has to be lowest DPS considering it has no tracking at all and will allways hit when in range. The damage that is actually recieved on target is a lot higher compared to turrets that miss!
But ofc all the caldari whiners in here would love to have their solo pwn boat!
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.17 09:05:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I replaced the original graph in the post with the new one. I apologize for the first graph, it was pretty crap. I hope this one is better?
Yes and thank you. I also apologize for having been a bit harsh with my words, but stuff like this annoys me.
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Added it. The missile have a range of over 100k, but the graph shows the damage WITH drone dps included, so you only have 60k with the damage shown there. From 60k to 100k, the dps goes down with about 100 (out of drone range).
Also, jav HAMs have right now a 560% range bonus. To compare jav rockets have an 180% one and jav torps an 150% of. If those get fixed they will prolly have a range of 40k.
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Spaced Skunk
Yesodic Nomads Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.17 09:43:00 -
[55]
Hurricane still has an edge, I liked the hurricane before the balance, I still like it now. Its only lose some powergrid (and not much), and 1 turret point.
Hurricane still has when compared to rupture(which hurricane with all rights should be compared too, its a bigger version of that);
+2 High Slots
+1 Medium Slot
+1 Low Slot
+2 Turret points
More HP
Obviously on the down side compared to rupture its bigger and slower.
So its a battlecruiser. ;)
I still think drake should get caracals bonuses though.
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Spanker
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:15:00 -
[56]
Aww bugger they took one of my launchers off. For a while there I thought I was going to get away with it, ah well. But now I really really need one of them cerb/NH/Drake graphs, and probably with a ferox thrown in for good measure, all with Heavy II's and T1 ammo.
Or should I stop demanding things and actually learn how to use that spreadsheet?
- Shpank |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:20:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Spanker
Aww bugger they took one of my launchers off. For a while there I thought I was going to get away with it, ah well. But now I really really need one of them cerb/NH/Drake graphs, and probably with a ferox thrown in for good measure, all with Heavy II's and T1 ammo.
Or should I stop demanding things and actually learn how to use that spreadsheet?
Its very easy to use. :) Download here, but you need to change the number of turrets/launchers for the Hurricane/Drake in the Ships tab to 6 for each one.
Then you should add the barrage tracking nerf too.. its not in my graphs here, but I have changed it in the excel sheet now to have 75% tracking instead of 100%. Thanks ccp.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:23:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/11/2006 08:46:05
Ok, graph time (changed graph)
After receiving lots of comments about the poor graph (and yeah, it was poor), ive tried to replace it with a better one. Feel free to comment.
About the tanking abilities
I cant show the tanking abilities unfortunately. But Myrmidon has +37.5% repair amount bonus and 50% drone hitpoint bonus for example. Drake 25% shield resists. Harbinger doesnt have anything, and Hurricane doesnt have anything.
If you take that into account and then look at the graph, can you understand why the Hurricane got nerfed? I cant. I felt it was balanced and I still do. Now it sucks.
Come on Jim. Make a graph that reflects actual fittings, not theoretical maximums. A full rack of T2 neutrons on the Myrmidon?!?! Right. And the same for the Harbinger. No way are you going to get all that to fit and still have room for the essentials. The Hurricane is different as you *CAN* fit a full rack of 425mm ACs and still have room left over. As for the Drake there arn't really small/med/large versions of heavy or heavy assault missile launchers, so it's not an issue there.
And lets see the DPS graph with the Myrmidon limited to medium drones, not 4 heavies. It's just suicide to run 4 heavy drones and no backups. Designing around these maximums is just silly.
Because I said so...
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Spanker
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:26:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Download here
Thanks, I'll muck around with it a bit.
- Shpank |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:29:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/11/2006 10:30:05
Originally by: murder one
Come on Jim. Make a graph that reflects actual fittings
Fine. Give me fitting suggestions for all ships that everybody agrees are good, and ill do it. And as for myrmidon, you can do what you want with it. Im going to use it with 4 Ogre II and a rack of dampeners, and laugh while the opponent sits there dying.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Mazare Mircea
Gallente
Delta team
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:44:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/11/2006 08:46:05
Ok, graph time (changed graph)
After receiving lots of comments about the poor graph (and yeah, it was poor), ive tried to replace it with a better one. Feel free to comment.
About the tanking abilities
I cant show the tanking abilities unfortunately. But Myrmidon has +37.5% repair amount bonus and 50% drone hitpoint bonus for example. Drake 25% shield resists. Harbinger doesnt have anything, and Hurricane doesnt have anything.
If you take that into account and then look at the graph, can you understand why the Hurricane got nerfed? I cant. I felt it was balanced and I still do. Now it sucks.
Myrmidon doesn't have the drone bay for heavy drones, so use mediums.
And if you wonder why, with the new HP change, the target will actually have time to pop 4 drones that are also very easy to target because they have a large sig.
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Do androids dream of electric sheep ? |
murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:44:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/11/2006 10:30:05
Originally by: murder one
Come on Jim. Make a graph that reflects actual fittings
Fine. Give me fitting suggestions for all ships that everybody agrees are good, and ill do it. And as for myrmidon, you can do what you want with it. Im going to use it with 4 Ogre II and a rack of dampeners, and laugh while the opponent sits there dying.
Arrite, I'll try and come up with some decent realistic fittings for the Hurricane, Harbinger and Myrmidon. Could someone else come up with some pwnage Drake setups? My shield/missile skills suck on test so I really can't fit it out like it should be.
Because I said so...
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Miklas Laces
A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:46:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Miklas Laces on 17/11/2006 10:48:21
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Fine. Give me fitting suggestions for all ships that everybody agrees are good, and ill do it.
Put Ion Blasters instead of Neutron and it's ok.
I would put 2 heavy and 5 medium drones, if the spreadhseet can't mix drones just go with 4 heavies.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:49:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/11/2006 10:50:28
Originally by: Mazare Mircea
Myrmidon doesn't have the drone bay for heavy drones, so use mediums.
And if you wonder why, with the new HP change, the target will actually have time to pop 4 drones that are also very easy to target because they have a large sig.
No, because Myrmidon will use dampeners, or scoop/deploy them constantly.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:50:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Miklas Laces
I would put 2 heavy and 5 medium drones, if the spreadhseet can't mix drones just go with 4 heavies.
It cant unfortunately. I would love that option...
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Miklas Laces
A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:53:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Miklas Laces on 17/11/2006 10:55:09
Originally by: Jim McGregor
No, because Myrmidon will use dampeners, or scoop/deploy them constantly.
I don't know how many dampeners you plan to put on your Myrmidon, personally zero, but there's no way you can reduce the range of the target ship to the point that it won't be able to lock your drones.
The scoop & re-deploy thing works ok if you're very short range, you'll lose some DPS of course. If you're at more than 10km forget it, your drones will go *pop* so fast.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:54:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/11/2006 10:56:21
Originally by: Miklas Laces
Originally by: Jim McGregor
No, because Myrmidon will use dampeners, or scoop/deploy them constantly.
I don't know how many dampeners you plan to put on your Myrmidon, personally zero, but there's no way you can reduce the range of the target ship to the point that it won't be able to lock your drones.
No, but I can delay it. Dampeners dont only affect range, it affects speed as well. So I would just have the drones out for a while until the opponent finally can fire at them, then scoop them back in for repairs, then deploy again.
1x web, 1x warp scrambler, 3x dampeners and a full tank.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Danii
CryoTech
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Posted - 2006.11.17 11:20:00 -
[68]
Only Scorch for the Harbinger? Why not Conf?
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.17 11:27:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Danii
Only Scorch for the Harbinger? Why not Conf?
Ive picked the longer range t2 ammo for everybody. Would need another graph for the close range t2 ammo for everybody. :)
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.17 11:29:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
1x web, 1x warp scrambler, 3x dampeners and a full tank.
You won't get many kills with that setup, though. With good (or better: max) skills 3 damperners will force anything which is no BS or no recon or has no sensor boosters fitted (which exculdes many ships, but also includes a good amount) into web range, but unless you lock the ship within webber range in the first place you give every ship but a BSs (and maybe a drake) the option to outrun your scrambler range and warp off.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.17 11:32:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Jim McGregor
1x web, 1x warp scrambler, 3x dampeners and a full tank.
You won't get many kills with that setup, though. With good (or better: max) skills 3 damperners will force anything which is no BS or no recon or has no sensor boosters fitted (which exculdes many ships, but also includes a good amount) into web range, but unless you lock the ship within webber range in the first place you give every ship but a BSs (and maybe a drake) the option to outrun your scrambler range and warp off.
Yeah, it wont work very good solo.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Ewa Quillam
Caldari
mega mining corporation
Astral Wolves
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Posted - 2006.11.17 11:35:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Ewa Quillam
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 16/11/2006 21:37:05
Originally by: Ewa Quillam
I'm very misspleased that u didn't put plain T2 Heavy Missile launchers on the drake with either Fury or Precision Scourge heavies...
The graph would be very, very different...
Yeah well, there will be more graphs. And why not make one yourself?
By the way, Drake with 2 damage mods and t2 heavy launchers with scourge fury: 343 dps out to 40 km. With prec, 264 dps.
The 40km range says a lot, with 15km u risk that an interceptor scrams u from 20km and calls for help. I like to have options and assault heavy launchers don't let much of those.
Are you kidding me? Heavy assault missiles can reach over 60km in a drake.
The first graph had only one representation for the drake and that stopped at 15km.
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.17 11:36:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Butter Dog on 17/11/2006 11:38:11
Things to consider about the Myrmidon:
You can remove 300 DPS in 10 seconds by popping the heavy drones.
You have to get into Void optimal which with 50% reduced falloff is no easy task.
No-one in their right mind will use Neutrons. You won't even be able to fit a rep. Drake DPS is realistic. Mrym DPS is pure fantasy because no-one will fit like that.
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nexvis
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Posted - 2006.11.17 11:40:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/11/2006 10:30:05
Originally by: murder one
Come on Jim. Make a graph that reflects actual fittings
Fine. Give me fitting suggestions for all ships that everybody agrees are good, and ill do it. And as for myrmidon, you can do what you want with it. Im going to use it with 4 Ogre II and a rack of dampeners, and laugh while the opponent sits there dying.
Heavy electron II, null, hammerhead II, no damage mods.
Running the numbers real quick with maxed skills with my ever handy windows calculator (excel is for noobs), I'm coming up with 440.5 DPS. with 4 Ogre II (380.2), 583.1 total output. Which at ~82% the output displayed in your graph is a very far cry from its current placement, much more inline with the other 3 while really out-damaging only the drake (minus the ridiculous cap-independant passive tank).
Might as well fly a heavey electron dual rep brutix, 295.9dps from guns (null), and 454.3 with 5 hammerII's. Fancy that, the tier 1 BC outdamages the tier 2 using mediums, and unlike the myrim..imim..erad...onmon...thing its primary output is *NOT* targetable, and when you inevitably run out of cap boosters and drones because ships take too **** long to die, at least you will have lost a cheaper ship.
Face it, the dual repper tank isn't actually all it's chalked up to be, bonus or not, two words: cap hog. Relying on targetable drones *with no spares* to even compete in terms of output with the other ships in its class is NOT a good recipe for success. Drones get popped, damage output goes through the floor (202.9), cap boosters get used up (god forbid there's a nos pointed at you at the same time), insurance gets paid.
See how this works? Or should I say, doesn't work?
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