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Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:59:00 - [1] Big Celestis 6-7-6 layout Bonuses: 10% bonus to Sensor Damp range and 5% bonus to Sensor Damp strength per level Why? The Mega is a better blaster boat. The Hype and Mega are equal at sniping. This ship costs 75m MORE than the Mega. It either needs to be better OR different to it. Being significantly better will open up accusations of it being overpowered (which is probably true as the Mega is an excellent blaster platform). The answer is clearly not 'better', but 'different'. Give me a Big Celestis, please.
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:02:00 - [2] Oh and before anyone says 'what about Lachesis etc'... well, what about the Rook and Falcon? This ship will have a different role to the recons, one which is probably more fleet-oriented... as we see with Scorpions.
Shin Mai	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:11:00 - [3] hmm i think they need a bs who really could fight on his own, not everybody fights in fleets, and a counterpart to the caldari t3 bs like a vindi would be great :).
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:17:00 - [4] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 17/11/2006 10:17:22 As i said in the other topic, 170 mill for what effectivly is a tier 1 battleship is silly. (Being "diffrent" isnt worth the 50 mill tbh) Wanna make it a big celestis? Fine, but give it the domi price tag and move the Domi/Mega up a slot in the Tier levels. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:24:00 - [5] Edited by: Butter Dog on 17/11/2006 10:25:27 Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 17/11/2006 10:17:22 As i said in the other topic, 170 mill for what effectivly is a tier 1 battleship is silly. (Being "diffrent" isnt worth the 50 mill tbh) Wanna make it a big celestis? Fine, but give it the domi price tag and move the Domi/Mega up a slot in the Tier levels. Fine by me. As I say, give me BETTER or DIFFERENT. Not a ship which does exactly what a Mega does, only a bit worse, for 75m more ISK. If I want to solo fight or NPC, there is the Domi. If I want to get in close and blast, there is the mega. If I want to snipe, there is the Mega. The Hype needs a role. Originally by: Shin Mai hmm i think they need a bs who really could fight on his own, not everybody fights in fleets, and a counterpart to the caldari t3 bs like a vindi would be great :). Counterpart to the Rohk? Er, the Mega has more DPS and better tracking than the Rohk both close up and at range.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:31:00 - [6] Originally by: Butter Dog Fine by me. As I say, give me BETTER or DIFFERENT. Not a ship which does exactly what a Mega does, only a bit worse, for 75m more ISK. If I want to solo fight or NPC, there is the Domi. If I want to get in close and blast, there is the mega. If I want to snipe, there is the Mega. The Hype needs a role. Well i agree that it needs a role, though personally i would prefer the Hyperion being the blaster ship because it just looks so god ** awesome Of course switching the MEga and Domi to a higher tier wouldnt be that easy, skills would be changed, stats would have to be changed. What about the Vindi and Navy mega? Would they become the first and only tier 3 faction ships? Tbh for a big celestis to live to the 170 mill isk price tag it would have to be pretty ** uber ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:40:00 - [7] Edited by: Butter Dog on 17/11/2006 10:48:22 Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Tbh for a big celestis to live to the 170 mill isk price tag it would have to be pretty **** uber So would a blasterboat. And then what would everyone say? 'Its overpowered, it does 1500 DPS etc etc'. They won't moan so much about a big, powerful Celestis PS - where is the model of the Hyperion available to view?
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:52:00 - [8] Wrong! It should have been the blasterboat with mass reduction bonus, instead it became the bastard child of a brutix and a megathron.. When these discussions were going on all gallente pilots said they want a BS that is equal to insta death at blaster optimal range with target webbed (optimal conditions basically) but instead the hype cant even fit a full rack of neutrons, WTF? Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:56:00 - [9] Originally by: Butter Dog PS - where is the model of the Hyperion available to view? Fanfest / Inside the game files. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:10:00 - [10] Originally by: Kunming Wrong! It should have been the blasterboat with mass reduction bonus, instead it became the bastard child of a brutix and a megathron.. When these discussions were going on all gallente pilots said they want a BS that is equal to insta death at blaster optimal range with target webbed (optimal conditions basically) but instead the hype cant even fit a full rack of neutrons, WTF? Yes, but you can't get that, because it will be insanely overpowered compared to other battleships. Imagine it with rails, or longer range blaster ammo... would be insane. The Mega is already a very good blaster boat. And thats the problem.
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:30:00 - [11] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Butter Dog Fine by me. As I say, give me BETTER or DIFFERENT. Not a ship which does exactly what a Mega does, only a bit worse, for 75m more ISK. If I want to solo fight or NPC, there is the Domi. If I want to get in close and blast, there is the mega. If I want to snipe, there is the Mega. The Hype needs a role. Well i agree that it needs a role, though personally i would prefer the Hyperion being the blaster ship because it just looks so god ** awesome Of course switching the MEga and Domi to a higher tier wouldnt be that easy, skills would be changed, stats would have to be changed. What about the Vindi and Navy mega? Would they become the first and only tier 3 faction ships? Tbh for a big celestis to live to the 170 mill isk price tag it would have to be pretty uber god forum ate my post anyway, the damp BS: 5/8/6, 5 turret/5 missile hardpoints, 20% increase to scram range per level, 10% increase to damp effectiveness per level. 150m3 drone bay, same armor/shields/cap/mass/agility as hype, 120 sig resolution, 400 sig, 25 sensor strength, 110km lock range, 140m/sec base speed. Totally worth the extra ISK. Any questions? Because I said so...**
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:32:00 - [12] Originally by: murder one anyway, the damp BS: 5/8/6, 5 turret/5 missile hardpoints, 20% increase to scram range per level, 10% increase to damp effectiveness per level. 150m3 drone bay, same armor/shields/cap/mass/agility as hype, 120 sig resolution, 400 sig, 25 sensor strength, 110km lock range, 140m/sec base speed. Totally worth the extra ISK. Any questions? I like this better, but I doubt we will be 'allowed' 8 mids.
Twin blade Minmatar The Caldari Confederation	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:44:00 - [13] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Butter Dog Fine by me. As I say, give me BETTER or DIFFERENT. Not a ship which does exactly what a Mega does, only a bit worse, for 75m more ISK. If I want to solo fight or NPC, there is the Domi. If I want to get in close and blast, there is the mega. If I want to snipe, there is the Mega. The Hype needs a role. Well i agree that it needs a role, though personally i would prefer the Hyperion being the blaster ship because it just looks so god ** awesome Of course switching the MEga and Domi to a higher tier wouldnt be that easy, skills would be changed, stats would have to be changed. What about the Vindi and Navy mega? Would they become the first and only tier 3 faction ships? Tbh for a big celestis to live to the 170 mill isk price tag it would have to be pretty uber god** forum ate my post anyway, the damp BS: 5/8/6, 5 turret/5 missile hardpoints, 20% increase to scram range per level, 10% increase to damp effectiveness per level. 150m3 drone bay, same armor/shields/cap/mass/agility as hype, 120 sig resolution, 400 sig, 25 sensor strength, 110km lock range, 140m/sec base speed. Totally worth the extra ISK. Any questions? Its a tad to fast hell its faster than the tempest so needs to slow down abit maybe 120. I don't think the dev's would ever allow that many mid slots no mattor what reason you gave them at best i think 6 is the most we could hope for. !
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:13:00 - [14] Originally by: Twin blade Its a tad to fast hell its faster than the tempest so needs to slow down abit maybe 120. I don't think the dev's would ever allow that many mid slots no mattor what reason you gave them at best i think 6 is the most we could hope for. The Lachesis has 7, so think again.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:23:00 - [15] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 17/11/2006 12:24:27 Originally by: murder one athe damp BS: 5/8/6, 5 turret/5 missile hardpoints 6 turret/4 missiles > 5/5. Of course, nobody is going to use this thing for sensor dampening; ECM + Tackling + 5 nosf (edit: Hell, maybe even just 5 turret) + 5 t2 heavies + armor tank = New I win button. Even with nerfed ECM it should still work just fine. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:40:00 - [16] Edited by: Butter Dog on 17/11/2006 12:42:26 Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 17/11/2006 12:24:27 Originally by: murder one athe damp BS: 5/8/6, 5 turret/5 missile hardpoints 6 turret/4 missiles > 5/5. Of course, nobody is going to use this thing for sensor dampening; ECM + Tackling + 5 nosf (edit: Hell, maybe even just 5 turret) + 5 t2 heavies + armor tank = New I win button. Even with nerfed ECM it should still work just fine. Not really, you can use a Domi for that very well already. The DPS of 5 T2 drones without a damage bonus is frankly pathetic. When your nerfed ECM jam cycle fails and you heavy drones go pop, what are you going to do? Leave the fight. How embarassing.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:41:00 - [17] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 17/11/2006 12:42:01 Originally by: Butter Dog Not really, you can use a Domi for that very well already. The DPS of 5 T2 drones without a damage bonus is frankly pathetic. This babey has more mids though, hence more ECM and more people jammed ^_^ Plus with 5 heavy nosf and plenty of ECM DPS isnt really and issue. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:43:00 - [18] Edited by: Butter Dog on 17/11/2006 12:44:03 Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 17/11/2006 12:42:01 Originally by: Butter Dog Not really, you can use a Domi for that very well already. The DPS of 5 T2 drones without a damage bonus is frankly pathetic. This babey has more mids though, hence more ECM and more people jammed ^_^ Plus with 5 heavy nosf and plenty of ECM DPS isnt really and issue. 6 ECM with a strength of 2 is like a Domi packing 3 ECM with a strength of 4, which is a standard setup now. ECM will fail during thie VERY long fight. Drones go pop. Its not a good idea.
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:44:00 - [19] Edited by: Butter Dog on 17/11/2006 12:45:29 Originally by: Twin blade Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Twin blade Its a tad to fast hell its faster than the tempest so needs to slow down abit maybe 120. I don't think the dev's would ever allow that many mid slots no mattor what reason you gave them at best i think 6 is the most we could hope for. The Lachesis has 7, so think again. The Lachesis a recon ship its not got alot of fire power it can jam and thats about it. You add BS lvl fire power with that many slots for ECM+ a good ammout of low slots for tank is just not going to happen. This doesnt have any firepower, really. No damage bonus, 5 turret slots. Damage dealer it aint. And no-one in their right mind will use the nerfed ECM when you have a damp bonus.
Twin blade Minmatar The Caldari Confederation	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:44:00 - [20] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Twin blade Its a tad to fast hell its faster than the tempest so needs to slow down abit maybe 120. I don't think the dev's would ever allow that many mid slots no mattor what reason you gave them at best i think 6 is the most we could hope for. The Lachesis has 7, so think again. The Lachesis a recon ship its not got alot of fire power it can jam and thats about it. You add BS lvl fire power with that many slots for ECM+ a good ammout of low slots for tank is just not going to happen. !
Ihar Enda Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:52:00 - [21] Agreed that Hype needs a different role... same thing can be said for all of the new BSs except the Rokh...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:54:00 - [22] With the above design, I'd just use it as a big lachesis with torp launchers in the highs so you don't consume cap, don't need tracking and can switch damage types at will (why do I fly Gallente again?). With 6 lows you can fit a decent armor tank, throw some ROF missile rigs in the rig slots, run 4 damps and mwd/web/scram/injector (just to be safe), and you can even swap the 4th damp for a second scram if you think your llama target has a stab or three. Because I said so...
Aypse Sanguine Legion Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.17 13:59:00 - [23] The majority of the posters wanted the hype to move more into the blasterboat and the mega into more fleet role. I propose this: Hype: 1. Increase total cap, decrease recharge 2. Drop a low slot, keep pg the same, increase armor HP 3. increase speed by 5m/s 4. decrease mass 5. Decrease targeting range, increase strength 6. Bonus changed to a double damage bonus, ROF and damage to large hybrids 1.Allow it enough cap maintain its guns for its initial, high damage gank but the recharge limits its ability to sustain in an extended fight. Also limits is tank. 2.If it has tank and gank, Tux isn't going to make it happen. With the double damage bonus, we need to keep it in the gank role and out of the tank. Dropping a low slot moves it into a gank role. By keeping pg the same, but having 1 less low slot, neutrons should be easier to fit. Increase armor HP so it doesn't have to have a 2nd 1600mm plate to be competitive with other passive tanks. 3.This thing is dead if it can't get into its optimal. 4.Allows it to rapidily accelerate into its optimal. Sure, other BS may be faster, but with a low mass, it should be able to get into optimal. So other BS will have more top speed, but this will have acceleration. 5.Mainly for the benefit of the mega. Moves the mega into long/mid range, hype into short range. Increase strength so its less likely to be jammed right off the bat and basically pwned before it can get into the fight. 6.Yeah, its going to be ripping out massive DPS but its not overpowered. You have massive DPS in the beginning, but little staying power. ROF bonus will also limit its ability to maintain that damage over an extended fight because it will tear right through its cap. What I am trying to make is a 'classic' blaster boat. High DPS, low tank, high initial cap, low recharge, high acceleration, limited ability to always stay in optimal. The challenge when facing this hype is to survive long enough for it to wear itself out. You will be terrified of its intial DPS, but if you can just ewar/nos/kite/tank his intial gank, you can take him down fairly easy. He has little tank and little sustainability. Obviously I don't have exact numbers, but if the hype is going to be a gank blasterboat, these are some of the rough ideas that could put it into that role.
Paigan Amarr Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.17 14:01:00 - [24] Originally by: Butter Dog Big Celestis 6-7-6 layout Bonuses: 10% bonus to Sensor Damp range and 5% bonus to Sensor Damp strength per level Why? The Mega is a better blaster boat. The Hype and Mega are equal at sniping. This ship costs 75m MORE than the Mega. It either needs to be better OR different to it. Being significantly better will open up accusations of it being overpowered (which is probably true as the Mega is an excellent blaster platform). The answer is clearly not 'better', but 'different'. Give me a Big Celestis, please. /signed Maulus - Celestis - Hyperion same as with Griffin - BB - Scorp Anything else is superfluous Originally by: Joshua Foiritain As i said in the other topic, 170 mill for what effectivly is a tier 1 battleship is silly. (Being "diffrent" isnt worth the 50 mill tbh) Wanna make it a big celestis? Fine, but give it the domi price tag and move the Domi/Mega up a slot in the Tier levels. Hm i see your point. But still i think it could be made being worth it by things like more cap, more recharge rate, more HP, drone space (150-250), maybe even more speed despite its size. As oveur said, bigger doesn't always have to mean "more guns". Sadly it's exactly what they tried to do in the end... And even if it's not quite perfect then, it is still better then being completely superfluous like atm. btw Joshua slowly but surey i get the impression that you are a dev's alt trying to bring forward arguments from a "normal player"s position. No accusation, just had to state it :-) -- This game is still in beta stage
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 14:04:00 - [25] Edited by: Butter Dog on 17/11/2006 14:05:23 Originally by: Aypse The majority of the posters wanted the hype to move more into the blasterboat and the mega into more fleet role. I propose this: Hype: 1. Increase total cap, decrease recharge 2. Drop a low slot, keep pg the same, increase armor HP 3. increase speed by 5m/s 4. decrease mass 5. Decrease targeting range, increase strength 6. Bonus changed to a double damage bonus, ROF and damage to large hybrids Not bad... except... 5 lows!? Are you insane? That low could be used for an MFS II which negates your extra bonuses. I love the double damage bonus though. Mind you, it would mean reducing targetting range to like 35km or something to stop it being used as an uber fleet ship. I would actually argue for what you have proposed, with 7 lows and 4 mids. This way, you can fit all the essential mids, stick a few extra damage mods in, and REALLY have a blaster ship worth using. Of course, it would still need extra PG, but then again, an extra low means an RCU is a possibility if you really want Neutrons. edit: oh, and I would still MUCH PREFER the Big Celestis. The Mega is a good blaster ship already! It owns pretty much everything else at close range as it is!
Ihar Enda Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 14:08:00 - [26] Originally by: Aypse The majority of the posters wanted the hype to move more into the blasterboat and the mega into more fleet role. No thanks. I'd rather leave Mega as it is and make Hype a dampener BS.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 14:11:00 - [27] Originally by: Paigan As oveur said, bigger doesn't always have to mean "more guns". Sadly it's exactly what they tried to do in the end... Youre quite right, but nothing posted here was really worth the extra 50 million isk tbh. Ewar ships are always along the lowest tier, this is good because theyre usually primary and arent all that useful solo. Making it top of the chain and more then twice as expensive as say the corp just wont work. Originally by: Paigan btw Joshua slowly but surey i get the impression that you are a dev's alt trying to bring forward arguments from a "normal player"s position. No accusation, just had to state it :-) Busted TO THE KIERON CAVE! ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 14:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Patch86 I aggree. People won't pay an extra 75 million for a blaster boat over the Mega unless it was truly 75 million isk BETTER than a Mega. And if it was made 75 million isk-worth better thana Mega, it'd be an absurdly overpowered, unbalanced ship compared to the other BSs. Like the Rokh? Id pay 55 mill extra for it over the mega if it had 5 heavies and 336+ m3 extra cargo space. ^_^ Its a good point though, people will happily pay for it because of its unique status, and I believe it will be a more useful fleet/gang addition than a scorp anyway - much more durable, and 100% guarentee of effect. I mean come on, who is honestly going to pay 175m for the Hype as things currently stand?
Paigan Amarr Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.17 14:26:00 - [29] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Youre quite right, but nothing posted here was really worth the extra 50 million isk tbh. There are more than enough possibilties to make even a ewar ship being worth 170mil. F.ex. if it can have so much tanking that destroying it as a primary takes so much time (read: 2 blob volleys instead of 1 or whole blob instead of only half of it, etc) that its loss is still worth it for fleet. (plus its ability to completely knock down one of the enemies until then, of course) Or that it has enough cap to remote transfer to a buddy while dampening an enemy. Or... If you say "but nothing posted here was really worth the extra 50 million" you could as well say "no i stolidly want it to be a big fat second gunship and i won't accept any points against that, as good as they may ever be" There were enough good points so far. -- This game is still in beta stage
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 14:27:00 - [30] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 17/11/2006 14:34:58 Well id buy a BPC and build one myself, ive got plenty of mins. The main reason being that it looks awesome and depending on how the neutronthron flies in Kali the current Hype would be a good replacement for the Electronmega. Originally by: Paigan If you say "but nothing posted here was really worth the extra 50 million" you could as well say "no i stolidly want it to be a big fat second gunship and i won't accept any points against that, as good as they may ever be" I dont care about fleets, i fly close range ships in small-medium gangs, reducing someones targetting range wont mean a thing to me, reducing their locking speed would be mildly useful, but not all that much. (Yes me, i mostly just care about me ) Not to mention celestis-style would be too predictable, if its gonna be played like that then id rather see it turned into a blastership. Another option of course would be something completely diffrent. Something we dont have in the gallente ship line up. Or back to the blastership subject, they can make/keep the mega the all out mother of close range damage and make the hyperion less damaging but much more durable, ie for taking on multiple opponents where one would normally use an electronthron. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]

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