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Last call of help for Maelstrom

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Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.11.24 16:39:00 - [1] Edited by: Tiuwaz on 24/11/2006 16:40:53 The Beginning of the Tragedy In the end of July Tuxford wrote a blog about the new battleships and their bonuses. heated discussions erupted as a consequence, as some of it were quite controversial and many worried about the feasability/useabilty of the exposed designs. For minmatar particular worrying was the maelstrom which was designed as a shieldtanking artyboat. We made it quite loud and clear known that: 1) active tanking of a longrange boat is pretty much useless except for mission running or low sec sentry tanking (we already have a decent mission runner with typhoon and low sec sentrytanking is also already done by many ships) 2) shield boost bonus is inferior most of the time compared to a straight resist bonus like the Rokh gets 3) shield boost bonus requires a dedicated slot to make use of it, while a straight resist bonus doesnt 4) we already have a decent sniper in the tempest, and the maels bring absolutely nothing new, in fact it is an inferior sniper as the cost of a tier 3bs and 2x more arty far exceed the benefit of a slightly higher damage at the loss of 2 high utility slozts and worse agility 5) Most minmatars were hoping for an ac boat as that was what we really lacked A Veil of hope appears 1 week later Tuxford posts a new Blog with some clarification and sheds some insight on the Maelstrom: Originally by: Tuxford "we intend the Maelstrom to be a shield tanking artillery boat, relying on other ships to tackle for you. Then again shield boost bonus isn't really terribly effective in fleets where you have potentially a lot of ships firing at you and damage output exceeds your tank's absorption by a wide margin. That's basically the reasoning for changing the Moa's shield boost bonus to resistance bonus originally." Minmatar gets some and hopes that ccp sees how redundant the proposed design is. The storm clams and a wait and see attitude gets prevelant. Disappointment rears its ugly head After several weeks the stats from sisi get to the public. With no change to Maelstrom Minmatar get restless again, proposing dozens of alternatives , giving arguments why its bad and confusion what the hell we should do with this ship. Originally by: Tuxford Its almost always worse than the Rokh's resistance bonus as well. Bonuses don't really need to be equal but Maelstrom doesn't really have much else going for it either. Well its a solid good ship but I can't help thinking its a bit subpar compared to other battleships. Maybe I'm just a whiner though. The mael is no solid ship. Its a great ship for complex tankers. Its a good ship for those with billions of isk to invest into faction implnats and faction stuff. It is mostly useless for everyone else. Fleet: - 6,6% more damage than tempest at 40% more cost (33% more turrets and 50% higher base cost) - worse speed and agility, important for fast alignment or getting out of interdictorbubbles - lower dmg modifier per gun, important in laggy fights where not all guns activate - no free utility slots for remote rep or antitacklerdefense Solo sniping: - Hp increase of this expanion and earlier ones have severly impaired alpha strike and it isnt that viable anymore. Better tank than Tempest for this tough. Mission Running: - tracking issues with arty - horrible mobility to get into range for either arty or ac's - typhoon doing that xtimes better Solo AC PvP - horrible mobilty as already mention ( has more mass than raven) - ac boats need to have mwd, web, cap injector, scrambler, leaving you with a 2 worthless slot shield tank making Mael is no solo ac boat and thats fine with me, not all have to be good in solo, but listing it to show its another role where its useless. - small cargobay limits severely the tanking ability as you can cant carry as many cap charges Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.11.24 16:40:00 - [2] Edited by: Tiuwaz on 24/11/2006 16:53:53 add AC Solo PvP: not every ship has to be good at solo and its fine for me that the Mael isnt, but i am listing it aswell as its an important standard role one can fill. Gang AC PvP - needs atleast a mwd, even in gang - horrible mobility, you have to sacrifice some lowslots for agility/speed mods - great tankage with 4 slot tank and injector - very vulnerable to nos, if you run a heavy tank you need to sacrifice 1-2 turret hardpoints for nos, or your tank will be made useless with all the noses currently flying around - horrible dps if you do so - taking the above in account you can perform again better by using a 7 slot armour tank on typhoon, 4 nos/4cruise - small cargobay, you practically have to ask someone to carry your cap charges Mining - clear winner here >_> atleast for matari spec, rokh gets more cput and can fit more mining upgrades Complex Tanking - Wet Dream for all those billionaires with Gist stuff and implants to run those complexes even easier Desillusion and Bitterness gripes the Minmatar heart The Maelstrom is starting to take the place the Typhoon had for a long time. An extremely niche Battleship with very few uses for the broad population, and becoming a running gag. "What to do with your Maelstrom! High: recycle Mid: build tempest Low: buy modules from the remaining 60 mill worth of mins" You have succeded in your design to make the Tempest largely useless as a shortrange boat as it is intended for longrange. You failed at the Hyperion to make it shortrange only, and you didnt succed as well with impairing the Rokh from shortrange as you did with Mael. You have continously ignored every thread and comment on the Maelstrom since October. Normally this means one of these reasons: "We think its fine" or " We dont know what to do with it". In both cases the fated ship goes live without changes. This is unacceptable. If you do think it is fine , then plz tell me why you think so. If you dont know what to do with it then plz assure us that its on priority for after Kali. (I have no illusions you will change the Mael in the last 4 remaining days) Dont make us stuck with a battleship that needs 3 years of suckiness till it gets fixed like we had to endure with the Typhoon. On a sidenote the Typhoon still has more shield hp than armour hp . Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.24 16:46:00 - [3] - Whats this, a minmatar player that still hasnt given up hope?! Im cutting off another turret from the Hurricane. That will show them who's the boss. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.11.24 16:48:00 - [4] Originally by: Jim McGregor - Whats this, a minmatar player that still hasnt given up hope?! Im cutting off another turret from the Hurricane. That will show them who's the boss. atleast post with your main so i get a golden bar Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Lyta Reimalken Minmatar	Posted - 2006.11.24 16:49:00 - [5] Hear Hear! Convince the minmatar crowd NOT to train up Amarr bs, just so we can use a better AC boat :D
Albert Anastacia	Posted - 2006.11.24 16:53:00 - [6] Originally by: Lyta Reimalken Hear Hear! Convince the minmatar crowd NOT to train up Amarr bs, just so we can use a better AC boat :D Better alpha strike boat too And Jim isn't in FIX so he can't be a GM/Dev
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.24 16:54:00 - [7] Originally by: Albert Anastacia Originally by: Lyta Reimalken Hear Hear! Convince the minmatar crowd NOT to train up Amarr bs, just so we can use a better AC boat :D Better alpha strike boat too And Jim isn't in FIX so he can't be a GM/Dev If I was a dev, I wouldnt file bug reports - I would fix them. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.24 16:55:00 - [8] Originally by: Albert Anastacia And Jim isn't in FIX so he can't be a GM/Dev Wait, FIX are GM alts now? I thought that was BoB! Man, I'm confused now. -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.24 16:58:00 - [9] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Albert Anastacia And Jim isn't in FIX so he can't be a GM/Dev Wait, FIX are GM alts now? I thought that was BoB! Man, I'm confused now. Didn't you know? You're a BoB alt corp. That's why your tourney team is just another bite at the apple for BoB (like the MC and Xelas) Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.11.24 16:59:00 - [10] enough hijack! comments about the mael plz, there has to be a few ppl who havent given up hope yet Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.24 17:04:00 - [11] Sorry for the derail. Yes, the has Maelstrom has severe problems, best expressed in nearly Haiku (credit to Guurzak): Quote: Cherry blossoms fall New life carries death's promise Maelstrom: abortion Anyway, it is a sniping ship with an active tank bonus. If that isn't reason enough to change it, I don't know what is. Too slow for a minmatar vessel. Tempest is already a **** fine fleet ship, why would we want another? Please Tux, give us something worth flying. Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Loki Amarr Omni-Core Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2006.11.24 17:06:00 - [12] Totaly agree, but might this not be better in revelations testing and dev?
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.11.24 17:09:00 - [13] Edited by: Tiuwaz on 24/11/2006 17:09:13 Originally by: Loki Totaly agree, but might this not be better in revelations testing and dev? i linked it in the Battleship thread, but reveleations forum itself is 1 page full of stickys, the thread would vanish into obscurity in no time unless constantly bumped Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.24 17:10:00 - [14] Originally by: Loki Totaly agree, but might this not be better in revelations testing and dev? It take about 2 minutes to get bumped off the front page there, chances of good discussion are pretty much zero, especially when the post is long, involved and about boosting minmatar. Generally, the way to get a debate going in that forum is to make the topic OMG GALENTE, and the thread short and sweet along the lines of "buhu buffzor!" or "waaaa nerfzor!" Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Loki Amarr Omni-Core Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2006.11.24 17:17:00 - [15] random whining as opposed to logic and well constructed armguments? Gotcha.
Ketrin	Posted - 2006.11.24 17:27:00 - [16] You minmatars are realy dumb it seems. You get the best boat, and still cry? This is not a single player game.
Ysolde Xen Minmatar Liberal Trading Co Electus Matari	Posted - 2006.11.24 17:32:00 - [17] Originally by: Ketrin You minmatars are realy dumb it seems. You get the best boat, and still cry? This is not a single player game. Are you going to qualify that statement with facts, figures, graphs, examples? ----- It's not a crap ship, you're just flying it all wrong.
Lyta Reimalken Minmatar	Posted - 2006.11.24 17:34:00 - [18] Yes, 'best boat' doesnt mean a lot without some form of setup, or at least psuedo-maths... By all means, enlighten us to the ub3rsetup so we can all go pwn with it. Everyone else seems not to have spotted it yet...
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.11.24 17:35:00 - [19] signed for the last ditch effort on the Mael before it begins a 2-3 year campaign of sucking before finally we get a measly change that makes it workable but still doesnt fix all of the problems and issues it has properly that shouldve been fixed when it was released but wasn't due to, I dunno, laziness?</unpunctuated typhoon-referential maelstrom rant> Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Talasan The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.11.24 17:51:00 - [20] Edited by: Talasan on 24/11/2006 17:52:23 last attempt eh, may as well give it a shot, tho i doubt they will take any notice of it Id like to see: current slot layout 5% rate of fire per level 5% ship velocity per level Reduce mass, increase base velocity to 160ms id be happy, very happy "minmatar got the shaft again? sure ill bend over right away"
Itaro Flagg The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.11.24 17:59:00 - [21] Came here to throw in my very small amount of weight behind your efforts Tiuwaz. I don't really have any suggestions as to what to do with the Maelstrom. Just about anything would be better than what it currently is. As for the best boat? I can't attribute that comment to anything other than a deliberate attempt to troll and derail this thread. Isn't worth getting into any kind of argument over. Maelstrom needs work, badly. Please don't let it go live as it is.
Felix Dzerzhinsky	Posted - 2006.11.24 18:01:00 - [22] There is no uber-Mael setup. I think it is fair to say that all the Battleships being introduced were made to introduce the Rokh - the other three being some strange after thought. Ya, the design is great, but as others have been crying -- what is the point? I look forward to seeing a lot of Rokh BPOs sell and very few of the other BBs sell for much. . . a ship for the curious.
Marcus Alkhaar Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.24 18:03:00 - [23] Edited by: Marcus Alkhaar on 24/11/2006 18:03:25 Originally by: Talasan Edited by: Talasan on 24/11/2006 17:52:23 last attempt eh, may as well give it a shot, tho i doubt they will take any notice of it Id like to see: current slot layout 5% rate of fire per level 5% ship velocity per level Reduce mass, increase base velocity to 160ms id be happy, very happy wouldnt it be easier just to tweak the phoon? (bonus wise) Originally by: darth solo I dont blame XS, tbh if i was in there shoes i wouldnt fight us either, its like bringing a caldari mountain sheep to fight a gallante war wolf(u like how i kept that in character
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.24 18:55:00 - [24] CCP wants to make the mael a good arty platform? change RoF and shield boost bonuses for dmg + straight shield HP bonus. problem solved. you have problems on tempest being outclassed by it? it's still a good arty platform, and it will still do more damage than the mael even with arties. ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.11.24 18:57:00 - [25] change the shield boost bonus to 10% tracking. fixed. Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.24 18:59:00 - [26] My 2 cents: Make it an armor tanker with a speed bonus, 8/5/7 layout. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Pesadel0 Vagabundos THE H0RDE	Posted - 2006.11.24 19:00:00 - [27] Originally by: Testy Mctest change the shield boost bonus to 10% tracking. fixed. Agreed.
d'hofren Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.24 19:10:00 - [28] Originally by: Testy Mctest change the shield boost bonus to 10% tracking. fixed. I would settle for 5% with a review later on. I would even be happy with a target painter range bonus , anything that I might actually use is good.
Kashre Minmatar Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.24 19:30:00 - [29] Wheeel.... the Mael isnt as bad as some in this thread seem to think it is. I have no idea why anyone would think the tempest was a better sniper: The Mael has more mid slots, which equals the ability to get the same range and still use a slot for an EW mod or an afterburner/mwd to get out of dictor bubbles. The Mael has higher DOT at extreme ranges for fleet combat. I belive it has more HP than the tempest as well, in general. On the other hand, the shiled tanking bonus is completely useless unless imo. Shield tanking snipers are used for what, exactly, in this game? I've never done it, and Im not sure why anyone would. If you're sniping at long range you dont have enough slots to fit a shield tank, and in a fleet it would do no good anyways. If you're tanking at short range then a tempest with missile launchers will have higher DOT than you. The shield bonus needs to be made into something that wont be mutually exclusive with the supposed role of artillery platform. I vote for tracking unless someone has a better idea. +++ "Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa
Talasan The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.11.24 19:31:00 - [30] Originally by: d'hofren Originally by: Testy Mctest change the shield boost bonus to 10% tracking. fixed. I would even be happy with a target painter range bonus , anything that I might actually use is good. how dare you meantion the MTSNBN!!!! "minmatar got the shaft again? sure ill bend over right away"

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