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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.11.25 12:02:00 -
[1]
Graph
Pros * Extreamly superior range * Superior damage.
Cons * Delayed first hit (no insta popping frigates)
Balanced?
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Verus Potestas
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2006.11.25 12:04:00 -
[2]
Like hell
Also, pay attention to the fact that they are only long range weapon which can be reloaded to do excellent damage at close range (<10km).
Yay
Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy |
HypnotiX
Underground Revolution
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Posted - 2006.11.25 12:28:00 -
[3]
dont forget that they can even hit ceptors at close range, turrets cant even hit cruisers under 10km tux wake up dude or resign....
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Nir
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.11.25 12:29:00 -
[4]
IMHO HAMs should be pushed back until Chapter 2, for the sake of balance.
If you can't fix something before putting it on a live server then don't put it in at all
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DayVV4lkEr
Liga Freier Terraner Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.25 12:33:00 -
[5]
Why did u leave out the amarr BCs and the tier 2 gallente ?
I only trust statistics that i have "create" myself.
But back to topic, what u want to say is correct, 90 km with a close range weapon just doesn't seem right.
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Verus Potestas
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2006.11.25 12:49:00 -
[6]
Originally by: HypnotiX dont forget that they can even hit ceptors at close range, turrets cant even hit cruisers under 10km tux wake up dude or resign....
The "you're so uber, that 1 DPS pwns my interceptor" argument sucks totally
Anyway, I don't want them balanced as a long range weapon. Heavies are the freaking long range weapon.
Javelins should NOT be hitting past 25km.
Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy |
MECTO
Xenobytes Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.11.25 13:27:00 -
[7]
i just have to ask - why the **** we need heavy missiles anymore?
It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it?
Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.25 15:00:00 -
[8]
You still need a mate to fly with you.
Show us the close range (realistic scenario) damage graph and if it still looks overpowered I'll take note.
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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Verus Potestas
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2006.11.25 15:08:00 -
[9]
Originally by: welsh wizard You still need a mate to fly with you.
Show us the close range (realistic scenario) damage graph and if it still looks overpowered I'll take note.
Close range ones are fine.
It's the Javelins that are broken to hell and back.
Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy |
welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.25 15:10:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Verus Potestas
Originally by: welsh wizard You still need a mate to fly with you.
Show us the close range (realistic scenario) damage graph and if it still looks overpowered I'll take note.
Close range ones are fine.
It's the Javelins that are broken to hell and back.
Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger?
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.25 15:12:00 -
[11]
Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger?
Then it should be no problem to reduce them to, say, 30 km range, right?
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Lucian Corvinus
Gallente Expert Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.25 15:14:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Lucian Corvinus on 25/11/2006 15:16:08 And please also keep the velocity, radius and transversal velocity instead of removing that. I would like to see the complete setup instead of you removing them, thx
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger?
Then it should be no problem to reduce them to, say, 30 km range, right?
Nope not at all if they also increased the DPS to be comparable to a close range turret system
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Verus Potestas
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2006.11.25 15:15:00 -
[13]
Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger?
When the target is scrambled?
The other weapons require a tackler to kill anything.
Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy |
welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.25 15:15:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger?
Then it should be no problem to reduce them to, say, 30 km range, right?
But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships?
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.25 15:17:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Verus Potestas
Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger?
When the target is scrambled?
The other weapons require a tackler to kill anything.
Surely thats precisely the problem a missile ship has given that; it realistically has no spare mids, is too slow to tackle anything with Javelin loaded anyway and has no instant damage potential?
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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Lucian Corvinus
Gallente Expert Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.25 15:18:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Verus Potestas
Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger?
When the target is scrambled?
The other weapons require a tackler to kill anything.
LOL and how is the target scrambled at range with the javelins, if not by a tackler??
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.25 15:20:00 -
[17]
Originally by: welsh wizard But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships?
No other ship is able to defend itself at range while using short range weapons. Try shooting someone at 50km using blasters loaded with null... it isn't going to work. Why should Caldari be able to hit out to 100km with their "short range" weapon?
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.25 15:22:00 -
[18]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 15:22:34
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: welsh wizard But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships?
No other ship is able to defend itself at range while using short range weapons. Try shooting someone at 50km using blasters loaded with null... it isn't going to work. Why should Caldari be able to hit out to 100km with their "short range" weapon?
But your ships are able to manoeuver at high speeds with high agility to compensate. You want Caldari missile ships to be immobile with a short range weapons system right?
You need to think a little further before you use that argument.
Javelins do the moving so your ship doesn't have to.
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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Verus Potestas
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2006.11.25 15:23:00 -
[19]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Originally by: Verus Potestas
Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger?
When the target is scrambled?
The other weapons require a tackler to kill anything.
Surely thats precisely the problem a missile ship has given that; it realistically has no spare mids, is too slow to tackle anything with Javelin loaded anyway and has no instant damage potential?
It has no instant damage potential, but it CAN turn a close range weapon into a 100km sniper weapon, and if you get warped on top off (normally the death of any sniper), magically, you reload t1 ammo or rage (hell, even keep Javs loaded) and kick their ***** asses.
I think we need to make a point here:
Beams: Long range weapons. Arties: Long range weapons Rails: Long range weapons Heavies: Long range weapons.
HAMs: Short range weapons.
If you can hit out to 100km with your short range weapons (further than your long range weapons, FYI), it's broken.
Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy |
welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.25 15:25:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Verus Potestas
Originally by: welsh wizard
Originally by: Verus Potestas
Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger?
When the target is scrambled?
The other weapons require a tackler to kill anything.
Surely thats precisely the problem a missile ship has given that; it realistically has no spare mids, is too slow to tackle anything with Javelin loaded anyway and has no instant damage potential?
It has no instant damage potential, but it CAN turn a close range weapon into a 100km sniper weapon, and if you get warped on top off (normally the death of any sniper), magically, you reload t1 ammo or rage (hell, even keep Javs loaded) and kick their ***** asses.
I think we need to make a point here:
Beams: Long range weapons. Arties: Long range weapons Rails: Long range weapons Heavies: Long range weapons.
HAMs: Short range weapons.
If you can hit out to 100km with your short range weapons (further than your long range weapons, FYI), it's broken.
No, it isn't broken, its different. You see you're just thinking in terms of "Ship X hits harder than Ship Y so it must be overpowered." All of these Javelin nerf threads follow this same pattern and they all fail to take into account real situations in Eve.
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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Lucian Corvinus
Gallente Expert Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.25 15:29:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
No other ship is able to defend itself at range while using short range weapons. Try shooting someone at 50km using blasters loaded with null... it isn't going to work. Why should Caldari be able to hit out to 100km with their "short range" weapon?
delayed damage -> target able to warp out without ever getting touched lowest DPS overall -> Able to hit at a longer distance but do not deal high damage close Slowest and fattest ships -> not able to 'catch' the target so they can reach longer with their weapons.
Anyways I really couldn't care less if they could reach 40 km or 100 km, but that's just me.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.25 15:33:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Aramendel on 25/11/2006 15:36:09
Originally by: welsh wizard
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger?
Then it should be no problem to reduce them to, say, 30 km range, right?
But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships?
What you seem to miss is that HAM javs are the longrange ammo of the caldari medium SHORT RANGE WEAPON SYSTEM.
It's the equivalent to blasters, ACs and pulse lasers. With a 30k max range it will have WAY more effective range than med ACs and blasters with their longrange ammo and about the same range as heavy (= cruiser sized) pulse lasers.
So "But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships?" is in fact completely the opposite.
"But every other ship is unable to defend itself at range using its chosen shortrange weapons system, unlike Caldari missile ships using shortrange missiles?"
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Also, HAM javelins are not balanced vs the rocket and torp javelins either. Rocket jav range boost vs t1 rockets: +180% HAM jav range boost vs t1 HAMs: +560% Torp jav range boost vs t1 torps: +150%
Spot the difference!
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Verus Potestas
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2006.11.25 15:34:00 -
[23]
You're aren't paying attention to the issue. I don't CARE if heavy missiles hit to 150km doing javeHAM DPS, I just don't think that the close range weapon should be doing that.
Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy |
welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.25 15:40:00 -
[24]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 15:46:37
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 25/11/2006 15:36:09
Originally by: welsh wizard
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger?
Then it should be no problem to reduce them to, say, 30 km range, right?
But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships?
What you seem to miss is that HAM javs are the longrange ammo of the caldari medium SHORT RANGE WEAPON SYSTEM.
It's the equivalent to blasters, ACs and pulse lasers. With a 30k max range it will have WAY more effective range than med ACs and blasters with their longrange ammo and about the same range as heavy (= cruiser sized) pulse lasers.
So "But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships?" is in fact completely the opposite.
"But every other ship is unable to defend itself at range using its chosen shortrange weapons system, unlike Caldari missile ships using shortrange missiles?"
---------
Also, HAM javelins are not balanced vs the rocket and torp javelins either. Rocket jav range boost vs t1 rockets: +180% HAM jav range boost vs t1 HAMs: +560% Torp jav range boost vs t1 torps: +150%
Spot the difference!
But Caldari ships are too slow and have no agility to properly use a high damage close range weapons system. Besides Javelins still get outdamaged by Blasters by a considerable margin.
Do you seriously think an immobile ship with no tackling ability and a 30km weapons system is a good idea?
It's quite simple, if CCP want to give us a high damage close range weapons system they need to give us a fast agile ship with which to use it. They also need to cater for the extra mids we require to fit a tank, mwd, web and scram. Can you see how this is becoming a bit of a problem
I suppose they could make the Rokh and armour tanking missile ship... Problem with that is its basically not a Caldari ship then is it? There'll be far more characters from other races with more skillpoints in relevant areas to use it. All they'd need to do is train Caldari cruiser to III and Heavy assauly missile to V + one spec.
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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dec0
The Movement
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Posted - 2006.11.25 15:44:00 -
[25]
Please, stop moaning. Thats all I ever see you do, moan about Caldari. Sing a new song. Caldari are getting a well deserved boost, we will get nerfed again in a few months, no panic.
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Hakera
Anari Higard
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Posted - 2006.11.25 15:58:00 -
[26]
concur, HAM T2 need adjusting inline with the T1 variants.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.25 16:03:00 -
[27]
Originally by: welsh wizard But Caldari ships are too slow and have no agility to properly use a high damage close range weapons system. Besides Javelins still get outdamaged by Blasters by a considerable margin.
Do you seriously think an immobile ship with no tackling ability and a 30km weapons system is a good idea?
It's quite simple, if CCP want to give us a high damage close range weapons system they need to give us a fast agile ship with which to use it.
Actually armor tanking ships with a plate and caldari ships with an extender have very similar agility. And, to repeat myself:
30k (well, if HAM javs at about the same boost as rocket and torp javs a more realistic range would be 40k) is still WAY more than what other races get with their shortrange weapons.
Do you seriously think giving a ships shortrange weapon system more range than other ships longrange weapon system is a good idea or in any way resembels balance?
Quote: They also need to cater for the extra mids we require to fit a tank, mwd, web and scram. Can you see how this is becoming a bit of a problem? The only alternative is to have a weapons system that does the movement for you while maintaining respectable damage. There is no middle ground....
There is more to PvP than 1v1.
Yes, shieldtanking ships will only be able to fit a weak tank if they fit tackling gear, too. But as advantage the can fit for FULL gank and FULL tank at the same time in groups where they have tacklers.
Armortankers can fit tackling gear and still can be able to fit a moderate tank & moderate gank. But in groups they will never be able to fit a full tank & full gank, even if they fit not a single tackling module.
Both tanking systems behave differently and have their own specific advantages and disadvantages and are pretty balanced vs each other. Shield tanking certainly does not need an boost from higher missile effeciency.
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Verus Potestas
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2006.11.25 16:47:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Verus Potestas on 25/11/2006 16:48:02 They got nerfed on SiSi. Now:
85 damage 8 second flight time 3500m/s
Should be 90 damage, otherwise, vast improvement (in balance terms)
edit: crap, I was beaten, and didn't notice it because it was added later
Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.25 17:29:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 25/11/2006 17:34:04
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Graph
Pros * Extreamly superior range * Superior damage.
Cons * Delayed first hit (no insta popping frigates)
Balanced?
Has anyone actually BR'd Javelins or does everyone just yell about them on the forums?
I'm suprised though, the Ferox does more damage with Rails than I thought. Almost 150DPS!
Such pwnage of a BC.
edit: Nevermind, they're now a 63km max range weapon with slightly less DPS.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.25 17:31:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Verus Potestas
Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger?
When the target is scrambled?
The other weapons require a tackler to kill anything.
And just how is the Javelin HAM user going to have the target scrambled at range?
Oh right, with a tackler, just like other weapons.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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