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Aequitas Veritas TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.25 19:55:00 - [31] Sigh and sigh... turretusers should stop complaining about missiles doing equal or sometimes more damage than their own weapons systems. Delayed damage is really a ****** up thing when you PvP and one deserve to hit harder when it takes you lots of time to reach the target. Ppl should calculate total damage done and not the unrealistic DPS figure which is never correct for missiles... "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.25 20:36:00 - [32] Quote: Actually armor tanking ships with a plate and caldari ships with an extender have very similar agility. You forgot Signiture radius. Caldai ships have the largest signiture radius. This means other ships hit them the hardest. Other race ships take less damage, and shield Extenders Increase Signiture radius even further, meaning Caldari ships are tackled, locked fastest, and take harder hits from all weapon systems. Then Caldari have slow ships, low agility, high mass... The picture is Caldari have ships that are the easiest to lock on to, recieve perfect hits against them the most often, Recieve overall, the most damage against them, can't tackle well, can't get out of tackling range, if Caldari use a MWD, and shield extenders we have signiture radiuses of ships up 1 whole class when compared to other races. Caldari do delayed damage so to calculate DPS, you have to begin the calculation from when the first volley hits, and turret users get more hits in before Caldari start calculating DPS, furthermore there is the tackler problem. Caldari and balance isn't about missles, damage types, etc. You have to look at the whole race, the ships, signiture radius, speed, agility, mass, delayed damage, lack of tackling ability, can't utilize a MWD. Mid slots being used for a tank, and not tracking disruptors, dampers, cap rechargers, we can't use cap relays. Look at the whole picture before making a nerf thread. failure to do so results in your arguments not being taken seriously. It's the same as watching FOX news and after watching 1 report on something, and then declaring to be an expert.
Tetovo Caldari Black Lance Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.25 20:49:00 - [33] Edited by: Tetovo on 25/11/2006 20:50:49 Meh @ javs. Yeah they hit way too far but their damage isn't much to worry about. Your graph doesn't work for this at all. Missiles aren't instant damage, their real DPS changes as range increases. By the time you are at 100k jav HAM probably aren't doing much DPS. It's definitely a number these BC are capable of tanking.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.25 21:08:00 - [34] Edited by: Aramendel on 25/11/2006 21:10:12 Originally by: Kelgen Thann Quote: Actually armor tanking ships with a plate and caldari ships with an extender have very similar agility. You forgot Signiture radius. Caldai ships have the largest signiture radius. This means other ships hit them the hardest. Other race ships take less damage, and shield Extenders Increase Signiture radius even further, meaning Caldari ships are tackled, locked fastest, and take harder hits from all weapon systems. Then Caldari have slow ships, low agility, high mass... And have the best locking range, the most effective EW system, the only EW battleship, the best sniper BS, the best NPCing BS, ... It's not like the general disadvantages of caldari are not balanced by advantages, too. Heavy assault missiles were introduced because missiles lacked a high dps, shortrange weapon system, an analogue to torps and rockets. But a weapon system which can do damage over 1-100 km is no shortrange weapon system. The whole point of one shortrange weapon system is that it exchanges an higher possible range for more dps. A system which can deal high dps with ammo A and achieve high range with ammo B eats the cake and keeps it, too. You cannot rationalize something like that is balanced. A 5-10% higher sig does not make an over 200% higher range over the weapon system with the next highest range (which would be heavy pulse lasers) balanced. A 30% higher one (which would be about 40k), perhaps.
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.25 21:31:00 - [35] Originally by: HypnotiX dont forget that they can even hit ceptors at close range, turrets cant even hit cruisers under 10km tux wake up dude or resign.... IMO he should simply resign.. since the time he's in charge of balancing the Ships & Modules forum is getting flooded by more whining threads each day! Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Arian Snow Minmatar Megalomaniacs at Arms	Posted - 2006.11.25 21:54:00 - [36] Edited by: Arian Snow on 25/11/2006 21:56:39 Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 15:22:34 Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: welsh wizard But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships? No other ship is able to defend itself at range while using short range weapons. Try shooting someone at 50km using blasters loaded with null... it isn't going to work. Why should Caldari be able to hit out to 100km with their "short range" weapon? But your ships are able to manoeuver at high speeds with high agility to compensate. You want Caldari missile ships to be immobile with a short range weapons system right? You need to think a little further before you use that argument. Javelins do the moving so your ship doesn't have to. Ce'? Tell that to the Maelstrom ... its sooo fast and speedy ... O' yeah great argument... I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all!
Benglada Finite Horizon The Red Skull	Posted - 2006.11.25 21:59:00 - [37] Tbh all jave missiles should be removed from the game. --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 22:01:00 - [38] Originally by: Arian Snow Edited by: Arian Snow on 25/11/2006 21:56:39 Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 15:22:34 Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: welsh wizard But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships? No other ship is able to defend itself at range while using short range weapons. Try shooting someone at 50km using blasters loaded with null... it isn't going to work. Why should Caldari be able to hit out to 100km with their "short range" weapon? But your ships are able to manoeuver at high speeds with high agility to compensate. You want Caldari missile ships to be immobile with a short range weapons system right? You need to think a little further before you use that argument. Javelins do the moving so your ship doesn't have to. Ce'? Tell that to the Maelstrom ... its sooo fast and speedy ... O' yeah great argument... And the Maelstrom shares what similarities to shield tanking Caldari missile ships? Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Siakel	Posted - 2006.11.25 22:03:00 - [39] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Arian Snow Edited by: Arian Snow on 25/11/2006 21:56:39 Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 15:22:34 Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: welsh wizard But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships? No other ship is able to defend itself at range while using short range weapons. Try shooting someone at 50km using blasters loaded with null... it isn't going to work. Why should Caldari be able to hit out to 100km with their "short range" weapon? But your ships are able to manoeuver at high speeds with high agility to compensate. You want Caldari missile ships to be immobile with a short range weapons system right? You need to think a little further before you use that argument. Javelins do the moving so your ship doesn't have to. Ce'? Tell that to the Maelstrom ... its sooo fast and speedy ... O' yeah great argument... And the Maelstrom shares what similarities to shield tanking Caldari missile ships? I believe that would be that it's a slow, heavy, shieldtanking ship that doesn't get weapons that 'move so the ship doesn't have to'.
Arian Snow Minmatar Megalomaniacs at Arms	Posted - 2006.11.25 22:09:00 - [40] Edited by: Arian Snow on 25/11/2006 22:08:59 Originally by: Siakel I believe that would be that it's a slow, heavy, shieldtanking ship that doesn't get weapons that 'move so the ship doesn't have to'. spot on! I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all!
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 22:11:00 - [41] Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 22:11:50 I give up, people won't see reason. It's quite bloody simple right? If you want to deny the ship firing range then it has to be able to move and it has to be able to hold its target in place, ESPECIALLY if its payload takes time to hit the target. This is an unbelievably simple concept to grasp. You can't just remove Javelin missile range, speed and damage and be done with it. You either leave it as it is or scrap Javelin altogether and release 2 different tech II missile types with different bonuses and disadvantages. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.25 22:16:00 - [42] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 22:11:50 I give up, people won't see reason. It's quite bloody simple right? If you want to deny the ship firing range then it has to be able to move and it has to be able to hold its target in place, ESPECIALLY if its payload takes time to hit the target. This is an unbelievably simple concept to grasp. You can't just remove Javelin missile range, speed and damage and be done with it. You either leave it as it is or scrap Javelin altogether and release 2 different tech II missile types with different bonuses and disadvantages. you want to move and hold your target in place? this is your argument? well, sounds like you need a tackler to lock your target down LIKE ANYONE ELSE!!! So, do you think everyone that isn't caldari fits a MWD, webber and scrambler on every ship? Or do you think all the turrets insta pop enemies in one volley before they can warp out? i'm leaning towards scrapping javelin altogether, i can aggree w/ you on that much. dont give up, i'm tryin to reason
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.25 22:17:00 - [43] Originally by: welsh wizard It's quite bloody simple right? If you want to deny the ship firing range then it has to be able to move and it has to be able to hold its target in place, ESPECIALLY if its payload takes time to hit the target. This is an unbelievably simple concept to grasp. Try to grasp this: Why do you need to counter a (at worst) 20% slower speed a 200%+ longer range?
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 23:24:00 - [44] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: welsh wizard It's quite bloody simple right? If you want to deny the ship firing range then it has to be able to move and it has to be able to hold its target in place, ESPECIALLY if its payload takes time to hit the target. This is an unbelievably simple concept to grasp. Try to grasp this: Why do you need to counter a (at worst) 20% slower speed a 200%+ longer range? Jesus, if that isn't obvious forget it. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Arian Snow Minmatar Megalomaniacs at Arms	Posted - 2006.11.25 23:38:00 - [45] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 22:11:50 I give up, people won't see reason. It's quite bloody simple right? If you want to deny the ship firing range then it has to be able to move and it has to be able to hold its target in place, ESPECIALLY if its payload takes time to hit the target. This is an unbelievably simple concept to grasp. You can't just remove Javelin missile range, speed and damage and be done with it. You either leave it as it is or scrap Javelin altogether and release 2 different tech II missile types with different bonuses and disadvantages. ce'? Yes it really is quite obvious that you dont fly arty ships... While arties may have instant damage their dps is low their range is low the new arty ship the Maelstrom is slower than your missile Raven! There is NO valid argument as to why shortrange missile boats should have more range than artyboats, which need tacklers i.e webbers and scramblers. The Drake can fit a full tank and go Nano in the lows and be very fast thats what HAMS should be about, HAMs are your long wanted AC/Blaster/Pulse counterpart. HAMs shouldn't be better Heavy missiles, they are meant for short range. Javelin Hams hitting at over 60km makes no sense! I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all!
Estrago Caldari Eve guardians Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.25 23:58:00 - [46] Originally by: Arian Snow ce'? Yes it really is quite obvious that you dont fly arty ships... While arties may have instant damage their dps is low their range is low the new arty ship the Maelstrom is slower than your missile Raven! There is NO valid argument as to why shortrange missile boats should have more range than artyboats, which need tacklers i.e webbers and scramblers. The Drake can fit a full tank and go Nano in the lows and be very fast thats what HAMS should be about, HAMs are your long wanted AC/Blaster/Pulse counterpart. HAMs shouldn't be better Heavy missiles, they are meant for short range. Javelin Hams hitting at over 60km makes no sense! Hey, guess what? Artillery is getting a damage boost in 3 days so quit whining about how underpowered they are. The short range guns can give much better DPS than missiles, so what would balence the short range missiles? How about more range? Would you rather missiles got better damage to make them more compareable with blasters? I'd have no problem with a 10-15KM missile that did twice as much damage. The key thing about missiles is that they are more versitile than guns. Guns are either very good at long or short range, missiles are mediocre at both. Just because missiles don't fit directly in the two catagories that guns do dosn't mean they're unbalenced. It just means they're diffrent. Someone save me from this Sanity.
Arian Snow Minmatar Megalomaniacs at Arms	Posted - 2006.11.26 00:09:00 - [47] Edited by: Arian Snow on 26/11/2006 00:11:09 Originally by: Estrago Originally by: Arian Snow ce'? Yes it really is quite obvious that you dont fly arty ships... While arties may have instant damage their dps is low their range is low the new arty ship the Maelstrom is slower than your missile Raven! There is NO valid argument as to why shortrange missile boats should have more range than artyboats, which need tacklers i.e webbers and scramblers. The Drake can fit a full tank and go Nano in the lows and be very fast thats what HAMS should be about, HAMs are your long wanted AC/Blaster/Pulse counterpart. HAMs shouldn't be better Heavy missiles, they are meant for short range. Javelin Hams hitting at over 60km makes no sense! Hey, guess what? Artillery is getting a damage boost in 3 days so quit whining about how underpowered they are. The short range guns can give much better DPS than missiles, so what would balence the short range missiles? How about more range? Would you rather missiles got better damage to make them more compareable with blasters? I'd have no problem with a 10-15KM missile that did twice as much damage. The key thing about missiles is that they are more versitile than guns. Guns are either very good at long or short range, missiles are mediocre at both. Just because missiles don't fit directly in the two catagories that guns do dosn't mean they're unbalenced. It just means they're diffrent. you should really read what you make an answer to ... I didn't say arties where underpowered... I didn't whine, here. so ? Arty damage with 5% boost will still be low... I dont say its a bad things its a simple fact compared to other turrets.. its okay seen in the light of other things prolly... I didn't whine I just stated the obvious sorry if you failed to see that.. its not my fault! I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all!
juri eight	Posted - 2006.11.26 02:13:00 - [48] can we get missiles that folow thru warp or shoot acrose etire system? :D
Tetovo Caldari Black Lance Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.26 02:24:00 - [49] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 22:11:50 I give up, people won't see reason. It's quite bloody simple right? If you want to deny the ship firing range then it has to be able to move and it has to be able to hold its target in place, ESPECIALLY if its payload takes time to hit the target. This is an unbelievably simple concept to grasp. If you want firing range fit heavies. Same way Minnie, Gallente, Amarr fit Arty/Rails/Beams. You can make a drake move and tackle, you are just mad you can't fit a full tank with it, well too bad the rest of us can't fill all our lows with damage mods and tank as well. You have to give something up if you want something else. The solution is not to load an overpowered tech 2 ammo, its to fit differently.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.26 05:38:00 - [50] Originally by: HankMurphy So, do you think everyone that isn't caldari fits a MWD, webber and scrambler on every ship? Considering all the 'zomg give shipX more mids so I can solo in it better' crap in these forums, yes, I think everyone fits them, or tries to. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Xori Ruscuv Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.26 05:50:00 - [51] Originally by: Benglada Tbh all jave missiles should be removed from the game. /signed What is CCP doing, handing this ***** game to noob little s? this noobsauce bull*. - Rokh with T1 fittings > tech 2 fitted ships with long range setups - Reducing reqs for advanced learning skills to 4 from 5 - Missiles in general, really It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?* This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap...
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:01:00 - [52] Originally by: welsh wizard Jesus, if that isn't obvious forget it. The only "obvious" thing here is that you have no clue about any turret ship mechanics...
Car Wars adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:07:00 - [53] Originally by: Jim McGregor Graph Pros * Extreamly superior range * Superior damage. Cons * Delayed first hit (no insta popping frigates) Balanced? If that where blasters everyone would be murdering ccp now. As it is caldari and it uses no cap at all, it is all balanced and great, with the hitpoint increase and all. Thank you ccp
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:13:00 - [54] Is that graph made witht he amopunt of turret/launcher point each ship ahs in mind ? If so then those javs definately need a heavy nerf yes, in both range as well as damage. Old blog
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:15:00 - [55] Originally by: Rod Blaine Is that graph made witht he amopunt of turret/launcher point each ship ahs in mind ? If so then those javs definately need a heavy nerf yes, in both range as well as damage. No, the Drake has gotten an additional launcher since then. It now has 7 launchers and the graph shows the dps with 6. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:16:00 - [56] Originally by: Rod Blaine Is that graph made witht he amopunt of turret/launcher point each ship ahs in mind ? If so then those javs definately need a heavy nerf yes, in both range as well as damage. First, yes, hardpoints taken into consideration. However, the Drake only has 6 in that pic. Second, they have had their range cut severely (about a half) and about 5% damage lost. Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:23:00 - [57] Edited by: Aramendel on 26/11/2006 11:23:42 They got a slight one. About 5% less dps and range reduced to 60k. Drake got it's 7th launcher back, though, the the dps actually got increased somehwhat. One should note, though, that the graph is without drones and the drake has the smallst dronebay. 5 med on the brutic deal 60 more dps than 5 lights on the drake. The real problem is, though, that we have a frigging shortrange weapon which has longrange weapon range. Originally by: Jim McGregor No, the Drake has gotten an additional launcher since then. It now has 7 launchers and the graph shows the dps with 6. And the damage got reduced from 90 to 85 and range to 63k. An updated graph would be nice there.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:23:00 - [58] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/11/2006 11:25:23 Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Rod Blaine Is that graph made witht he amopunt of turret/launcher point each ship ahs in mind ? If so then those javs definately need a heavy nerf yes, in both range as well as damage. First, yes, hardpoints taken into consideration. However, the Drake only has 6 in that pic. Second, they have had their range cut severely (about a half) and about 5% damage lost. The extra launcher should give Drake +14% dps in the graph, so even if you take away 5% from the nerf, its still insane. But i'll make a new graph with the correct numbers. It wont be any better though. They shouldnt go further than maybe 20 km, or they should have much lower dps. Close combat weapon or long range weapon, ccp decides, but they cant have them both high damage and long range. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:24:00 - [59] Edited by: Verus Potestas on 26/11/2006 11:25:37 IMO, maxed skills, javeHAMs should go about 30km. They should do 90 damage. edit: and at that 30km should be made up of 10km/s speed and 3second flight time Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:27:00 - [60] When you make a new graph please add an harbringer with 7 heavy pulse 2 and conflag to it so we have an comparsion to the shortrange weapon system with the next highest range.

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