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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.11.26 11:29:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Aramendel When you make a new graph please add an harbringer with 7 heavy pulse 2 and conflag to it so we have an comparsion to the shortrange weapon system with the next highest range.
Aye, will do. Just have to get on the test server and have a look at the new numbers. Ill post it later today. :)
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Pinky Denmark
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Posted - 2006.11.26 11:32:00 -
[62]
I say it's fine if HAM Javelins get up to 30km + ship bonus... they don't THAT fast so you need to deduct some range due to missile manuvring (call it tracking hehe)
Pinky
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Danjira Ryuujin
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Posted - 2006.11.26 11:49:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 26/11/2006 11:23:42 The real problem is, though, that we have a frigging shortrange weapon which has longrange weapon range.
And the damage got reduced from 90 to 85 and range to 63k. An updated graph would be nice there.
"If you want to launch long range attacks rather than engage in close quarters combat then this is the skill tree for you"-Player Guide: Fighting. The difference should be between long range, and longer range. Keep in the mind that the longer a missiles range is, the greater it takes for damage to be dealt. Missile dynamics insure this penalty. Explosion velocity and radius of course need to be modified so that at long range small targets take very little damage with these weapons. Javelin torps should have been handled in the same way. Large explosion radius, long fast(for missile) flight.
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Verus Potestas
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2006.11.26 11:53:00 -
[64]
For christ sake, I HAVE a long range missile weapon. HEAVY FREAKING MISSILES. We got HAMs because we whined about not having a short range option. So now, let's make HAMs a long range weapon too! Diversity is bad, mkay?
Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.26 12:02:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin "If you want to launch long range attacks rather than engage in close quarters combat then this is the skill tree for you"-Player Guide: Fighting.
If medium blasters and ACs want to get their max performance they need ranges of 5k. Rage HAM are effective to 10k.
With longrange ammo ACs and blasters work with high effeciency to 15-20k. Jav HAM are effective to 60k.
Long range does not mean that it's shortrange weapons have the same range as other races longrange weapons (and even IF this would be the case jav HAMs are also dealing a good deal more dps - how would you rationalize that?). It means that they have a *reasonable* higher range than other races with the same weapon system. For high damage ammo thats given, they have about twice as much range. For low damage ammo they have 3-4 times the range, though. Tahts not reasonable, thats rediculous.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.11.26 12:22:00 -
[66]
I updated the graph and I still dont like what im seeing here... --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Verus Potestas
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2006.11.26 12:24:00 -
[67]
Halve javeHAM range again (slightly more than halve it), stick them back to 90 damage each and it's all good.
Close. Range. Weapon.
The DPS isn't the problem, the range is.
Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy |
Lucian Corvinus
Gallente Expert Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.26 12:26:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I updated the graph and I still dont like what im seeing here...
Could you try one where the myrmidon has it's 5 ogre II deployed
I wouldn't mind shorter range and 90 in damage again..
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.26 12:29:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Aramendel on 26/11/2006 12:35:30
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I updated the graph and I still dont like what im seeing here...
Uuups, sorry Jim, I gave you the wrong crystal, scortch, not conflag. I confused the short and longrange pulse laser crystals.
Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Could you try one where the myrmidon has it's 5 ogre II deployed
One could argue that heavy drones are not exactly long range weapons, though. They owuld need 1 minute to get to the target at 60k - if it isn't moving. If it's at 500 m/s they will need 2 and if it's 1000 m/s or faster they will never reach it.
Vs an immobile target both the drake with jav HAMs and a myr with 5 ogres 2 would have about the same dps, though, yes. But ogres have a considerably more serious drawbacks.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.11.26 12:32:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/11/2006 12:37:24
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I updated the graph and I still dont like what im seeing here...
Uuups, sorry Jim, I gave you the wrong crystal, scortch, not conflag. I confused the short and longrange pulse laser crystals.
Ok, fixed it. :) But why not use heavy beams? Then you have the range of the artillery ships, but crappy damage just like the rest of us. You have about 30 dps more than the artillery hurricane and the railgun brutix if you use those, but javelins still run us all over.
Originally by: Lucian Corvinus
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I updated the graph and I still dont like what im seeing here...
Could you try one where the myrmidon has it's 5 ogre II deployed
I wouldn't mind shorter range and 90 in damage again..
No, because then this thread will be taken over by gallente players arguing the myrmidon is balanced...
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.26 13:19:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Ok, fixed it. :) But why not use heavy beams? Then you have the range of the artillery ships, but crappy damage just like the rest of us. You have about 30 dps more than the artillery hurricane and the railgun brutix if you use those, but javelins still run us all over.
Because it is IMO better to compare them with other shortrange weapon systems. Sure they are too strong vs the longrange weapons, but you also have to look at their performance vs other shortrange weapons, so they do not get too weak vs them.
For example, the harbs weapons outdamage other races longrange eapons also, but only up to 30-35k. Javelin also now gets outranged by other races longrange weapons, but only in the very edge of their range. It still has a bit too much range.
But if you compare it vs the harb it gets obvious that a 30k range for them - as some people suggested - would be too low. One of 40-45k seems decent to me, it gives it a reasonable range where it outdamages the harbringer and gives longrange weapons a decent window where they outdamage the javs.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.11.26 13:25:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/11/2006 13:26:39
Originally by: Aramendel
But if you compare it vs the harb it gets obvious that a 30k range for them - as some people suggested - would be too low. One of 40-45k seems decent to me, it gives it a reasonable range where it outdamages the harbringer and gives longrange weapons a decent window where they outdamage the javs.
I dont know... if they had a range of 40-45k, I would never use medium artillery. The delayed damage of 6-7 seconds in the beginning of the fight is nothing, and alpha strike doesnt mean anything with the increased hitpoints. Missiles catch up very fast. And then you have all the other advantages of missiles with consistent damage and no misses.
So I would use the Drake. Much better tanking than the other battlecruisers, and much better dps as well, at medium range (20k to 45k or whatever ccp thinks is fair). Its simply the absolute best choice if this goes live. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.26 13:46:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Otherwise, if Javelins went about 20k, it would be pretty fair. Such a graph would show javelins have good damage at 20k, and worst damage at 0k compared to autocannons/blasters. Seems balanced to me.
And would get significantly outdamaged (and also outranged) by heavy pulses. The range where HAMs outdamage med ACs will then also be prolly very small, too (if it is even there at all).
The drake still has it's tanking bonus, of cource, but it's IMO not THAT good to justify making the weapons subpar for any range.
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.26 14:10:00 -
[74]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 26/11/2006 14:15:57
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: welsh wizard Jesus, if that isn't obvious forget it.
The only "obvious" thing here is that you have no clue about any turret ship mechanics...
Are we discussing turret ships?
Can one of you lot please confirm my suspicions.
Do you think that a missile ship that moves at approximately 50m/s, has no capacity to fit an mwd/web and has a maximum weapon range of 30km with an average - high damage payload balanced?
I'd appreciate it if someone could answer that.
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.11.26 14:31:00 -
[75]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Do you think that a missile ship that moves at approximately 50m/s, has no capacity to fit an mwd/web and has a maximum weapon range of 30km with an average - high damage payload balanced?
I'd appreciate it if someone could answer that.
I think 30 km would be a balanced max range for Javelins, yeah.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Arte
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Posted - 2006.11.26 14:38:00 -
[76]
Originally by: welsh wizard But Caldari ships are too slow and have no agility to properly use a high damage close range weapons system. Besides Javelins still get outdamaged by Blasters by a considerable margin.
*cough* the deimos has the same problem and it's supposed to be the uber close range high damage cruiser... effective range... <10km.
Your arguement, though well presented and valid in almost every respect, falls apart when you try to say it's a caldari problem which justifies you being able to reach out and touch someone up to medium-long ranges with a short range weapon system.
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Lucian Corvinus
Gallente Expert Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.26 14:58:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Aramendel
One could argue that heavy drones are not exactly long range weapons, though. They owuld need 1 minute to get to the target at 60k - if it isn't moving. If it's at 500 m/s they will need 2 and if it's 1000 m/s or faster they will never reach it.
Vs an immobile target both the drake with jav HAMs and a myr with 5 ogres 2 would have about the same dps, though, yes. But ogres have a considerably more serious drawbacks.
Well HAM javelins are not exactly long range either, and as far as I know this thread is about keeping the "close" range weapons to be close range. So why not limit the range of the drones to 30km also if they are, as you say, a close range system?? And yet these graphs are as biased as they can possible be.
I know Jim is trying to show how underpowered the hurrican is compared to the drake and the others new BCs. But what I don't understand is why he 'forgot' to use the last 2 highslots on the hurricane for launchers?? The drake can't fit a turret in the last highslot but the huricane can fit 2 missile launchers. I would also really like if he could keep the transversal velocity, the radius and the velocity for the target so we can see what those stats are. I would like these graphs to be fair and not just an excuse to rant away
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.26 14:59:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Aramendel on 26/11/2006 15:03:19
Originally by: welsh wizard Are we discussing turret ships?
We are discussing the balance of a missle system vs turret systems, so yes, we are discussing turret ships.
Quote: Do you think that a missile ship that moves at approximately 50m/s, has no capacity to fit an mwd/web and has a maximum weapon range of 30km with an average - high damage payload balanced?
30k, no, at least if you compare it vs the harbringer. 40k - hell, yes, especially considering it has a tanking bonus. It will then still have the highest range of all shortrange weapons and *any* shortrnge weapon should be outranged by longrange weapons. And these ships with longrange weapons typically do not have the grid to fit MWDs, etc either without fitting upgrades. Nor can use webbers or scramblers at that range.
Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Well HAM javelins are not exactly long range either, and as far as I know this thread is about keeping the "close" range weapons to be close range. So why not limit the range of the drones to 30km also if they are, as you say, a close range system?? And yet these graphs are as biased as they can possible be.
Drones in general, no, that would be like limiting all missiles to the same range. I would have personally no problem with limiting lights to 60k, meds to 40k and heavies to 20k, though. (Although drone nav comps and in the case of the ishkur ship skills should be able to boost that.)
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.11.26 15:04:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/11/2006 15:06:45
Originally by: Lucian Corvinus
I know Jim is trying to show how underpowered the hurrican is compared to the drake and the others new BCs. But what I don't understand is why he 'forgot' to use the last 2 highslots on the hurricane for launchers?? The drake can't fit a turret in the last highslot but the huricane can fit 2 missile launchers. I would also really like if he could keep the transversal velocity, the radius and the velocity for the target so we can see what those stats are. I would like these graphs to be fair and not just an excuse to rant away
Drake is overpowered with Javelins compared to every other battlecruiser in the game with their best medium range guns. The reason I dont put launchers on a Hurricane with 720's is that then you can forget about any sort of tank on it. Fit 6 720's and you are out of powergrid. Add reactor controls and you can put some launchers on it, but you have no tank at all.
That should be set in relation to the Drake, which can fit a mean tank while also having the best dps in this league of weapons. Im not trying to show a false picture here. I belive it to be very accurate. As for your transversal velocity, it wont affect this situation because speed only affects missiles when you travel REALLY fast, and you cant do that with railgun/artillery ships because then your tracking makes you miss everything. Tracking is something that guns have and missiles dont you know.
This graph is the PERFECT situation for turrets with nobody moving. If anything, turret dps will be lower in reality if the ships arent standing still.
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.26 19:07:00 -
[80]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 26/11/2006 19:08:01 You know what? Nerf it, I'm patient enough to wait for the inevitable buff in a few months time. Only actual game time will show whats what.
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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Verus Potestas
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2006.11.26 22:12:00 -
[81]
Originally by: welsh wizard You know what? Nerf it, I'm patient enough to wait for the inevitable buff in a few months time. Only actual game time will show whats what.
Show me the day CCP decide that what the game really needs is a close range weapon going 100km (sans bonuses), and I'll show you the day acid gets legalised in Iceland.
Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy |
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