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Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.25 12:02:00 - [1] Graph Pros * Extreamly superior range * Superior damage. Cons * Delayed first hit (no insta popping frigates) Balanced? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.25 12:04:00 - [2] Like hell Also, pay attention to the fact that they are only long range weapon which can be reloaded to do excellent damage at close range (<10km). Yay Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
HypnotiX Underground Revolution	Posted - 2006.11.25 12:28:00 - [3] dont forget that they can even hit ceptors at close range, turrets cant even hit cruisers under 10km tux wake up dude or resign....
Nir Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.11.25 12:29:00 - [4] IMHO HAMs should be pushed back until Chapter 2, for the sake of balance. If you can't fix something before putting it on a live server then don't put it in at all
DayVV4lkEr Liga Freier Terraner Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.25 12:33:00 - [5] Why did u leave out the amarr BCs and the tier 2 gallente ? I only trust statistics that i have "create" myself. But back to topic, what u want to say is correct, 90 km with a close range weapon just doesn't seem right.
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.25 12:49:00 - [6] Originally by: HypnotiX dont forget that they can even hit ceptors at close range, turrets cant even hit cruisers under 10km tux wake up dude or resign.... The "you're so uber, that 1 DPS pwns my interceptor" argument sucks totally Anyway, I don't want them balanced as a long range weapon. Heavies are the freaking long range weapon. Javelins should NOT be hitting past 25km. Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
MECTO Xenobytes Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.11.25 13:27:00 - [7] i just have to ask - why the ** we need heavy missiles anymore? It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it? Originally by:** Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:00:00 - [8] You still need a mate to fly with you. Show us the close range (realistic scenario) damage graph and if it still looks overpowered I'll take note. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:08:00 - [9] Originally by: welsh wizard You still need a mate to fly with you. Show us the close range (realistic scenario) damage graph and if it still looks overpowered I'll take note. Close range ones are fine. It's the Javelins that are broken to hell and back. Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:10:00 - [10] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: welsh wizard You still need a mate to fly with you. Show us the close range (realistic scenario) damage graph and if it still looks overpowered I'll take note. Close range ones are fine. It's the Javelins that are broken to hell and back. Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger? Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:12:00 - [11] Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger? Then it should be no problem to reduce them to, say, 30 km range, right?
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:14:00 - [12] Edited by: Lucian Corvinus on 25/11/2006 15:16:08 And please also keep the velocity, radius and transversal velocity instead of removing that. I would like to see the complete setup instead of you removing them, thx Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger? Then it should be no problem to reduce them to, say, 30 km range, right? Nope not at all if they also increased the DPS to be comparable to a close range turret system
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:15:00 - [13] Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger? When the target is scrambled? The other weapons require a tackler to kill anything. Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:15:00 - [14] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger? Then it should be no problem to reduce them to, say, 30 km range, right? But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships? Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:17:00 - [15] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger? When the target is scrambled? The other weapons require a tackler to kill anything. Surely thats precisely the problem a missile ship has given that; it realistically has no spare mids, is too slow to tackle anything with Javelin loaded anyway and has no instant damage potential? Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:18:00 - [16] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger? When the target is scrambled? The other weapons require a tackler to kill anything. LOL and how is the target scrambled at range with the javelins, if not by a tackler??
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:20:00 - [17] Originally by: welsh wizard But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships? No other ship is able to defend itself at range while using short range weapons. Try shooting someone at 50km using blasters loaded with null... it isn't going to work. Why should Caldari be able to hit out to 100km with their "short range" weapon?
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:22:00 - [18] Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 15:22:34 Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: welsh wizard But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships? No other ship is able to defend itself at range while using short range weapons. Try shooting someone at 50km using blasters loaded with null... it isn't going to work. Why should Caldari be able to hit out to 100km with their "short range" weapon? But your ships are able to manoeuver at high speeds with high agility to compensate. You want Caldari missile ships to be immobile with a short range weapons system right? You need to think a little further before you use that argument. Javelins do the moving so your ship doesn't have to. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:23:00 - [19] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger? When the target is scrambled? The other weapons require a tackler to kill anything. Surely thats precisely the problem a missile ship has given that; it realistically has no spare mids, is too slow to tackle anything with Javelin loaded anyway and has no instant damage potential? It has no instant damage potential, but it CAN turn a close range weapon into a 100km sniper weapon, and if you get warped on top off (normally the death of any sniper), magically, you reload t1 ammo or rage (hell, even keep Javs loaded) and kick their ***** asses. I think we need to make a point here: Beams: Long range weapons. Arties: Long range weapons Rails: Long range weapons Heavies: Long range weapons. HAMs: Short range weapons. If you can hit out to 100km with your short range weapons (further than your long range weapons, FYI), it's broken. Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:25:00 - [20] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger? When the target is scrambled? The other weapons require a tackler to kill anything. Surely thats precisely the problem a missile ship has given that; it realistically has no spare mids, is too slow to tackle anything with Javelin loaded anyway and has no instant damage potential? It has no instant damage potential, but it CAN turn a close range weapon into a 100km sniper weapon, and if you get warped on top off (normally the death of any sniper), magically, you reload t1 ammo or rage (hell, even keep Javs loaded) and kick their *** asses. I think we need to make a point here: Beams: Long range weapons. Arties: Long range weapons Rails: Long range weapons Heavies: Long range weapons. HAMs: Short range weapons. If you can hit out to 100km with your short range weapons (further than your long range weapons, FYI), it's broken. No, it isn't broken, its different. You see you're just thinking in terms of "Ship X hits harder than Ship Y so it must be overpowered." All of these Javelin nerf threads follow this same pattern and they all fail to take into account real situations in Eve. Originally by:** anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:29:00 - [21] Originally by: Azerrad InExile No other ship is able to defend itself at range while using short range weapons. Try shooting someone at 50km using blasters loaded with null... it isn't going to work. Why should Caldari be able to hit out to 100km with their "short range" weapon? delayed damage -> target able to warp out without ever getting touched lowest DPS overall -> Able to hit at a longer distance but do not deal high damage close Slowest and fattest ships -> not able to 'catch' the target so they can reach longer with their weapons. Anyways I really couldn't care less if they could reach 40 km or 100 km, but that's just me.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:33:00 - [22] Edited by: Aramendel on 25/11/2006 15:36:09 Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger? Then it should be no problem to reduce them to, say, 30 km range, right? But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships? What you seem to miss is that HAM javs are the longrange ammo of the caldari medium SHORT RANGE WEAPON SYSTEM. It's the equivalent to blasters, ACs and pulse lasers. With a 30k max range it will have WAY more effective range than med ACs and blasters with their longrange ammo and about the same range as heavy (= cruiser sized) pulse lasers. So "But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships?" is in fact completely the opposite. "But every other ship is unable to defend itself at range using its chosen shortrange weapons system, unlike Caldari missile ships using shortrange missiles?" --------- Also, HAM javelins are not balanced vs the rocket and torp javelins either. Rocket jav range boost vs t1 rockets: +180% HAM jav range boost vs t1 HAMs: +560% Torp jav range boost vs t1 torps: +150% Spot the difference!
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:34:00 - [23] You're aren't paying attention to the issue. I don't CARE if heavy missiles hit to 150km doing javeHAM DPS, I just don't think that the close range weapon should be doing that. Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:40:00 - [24] Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 15:46:37 Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 25/11/2006 15:36:09 Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger? Then it should be no problem to reduce them to, say, 30 km range, right? But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships? What you seem to miss is that HAM javs are the longrange ammo of the caldari medium SHORT RANGE WEAPON SYSTEM. It's the equivalent to blasters, ACs and pulse lasers. With a 30k max range it will have WAY more effective range than med ACs and blasters with their longrange ammo and about the same range as heavy (= cruiser sized) pulse lasers. So "But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships?" is in fact completely the opposite. "But every other ship is unable to defend itself at range using its chosen shortrange weapons system, unlike Caldari missile ships using shortrange missiles?" --------- Also, HAM javelins are not balanced vs the rocket and torp javelins either. Rocket jav range boost vs t1 rockets: +180% HAM jav range boost vs t1 HAMs: +560% Torp jav range boost vs t1 torps: +150% Spot the difference! But Caldari ships are too slow and have no agility to properly use a high damage close range weapons system. Besides Javelins still get outdamaged by Blasters by a considerable margin. Do you seriously think an immobile ship with no tackling ability and a 30km weapons system is a good idea? It's quite simple, if CCP want to give us a high damage close range weapons system they need to give us a fast agile ship with which to use it. They also need to cater for the extra mids we require to fit a tank, mwd, web and scram. Can you see how this is becoming a bit of a problem I suppose they could make the Rokh and armour tanking missile ship... Problem with that is its basically not a Caldari ship then is it? There'll be far more characters from other races with more skillpoints in relevant areas to use it. All they'd need to do is train Caldari cruiser to III and Heavy assauly missile to V + one spec. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
dec0 The Movement	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:44:00 - [25] Please, stop moaning. Thats all I ever see you do, moan about Caldari. Sing a new song. Caldari are getting a well deserved boost, we will get nerfed again in a few months, no panic.
Hakera Anari Higard	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:58:00 - [26] concur, HAM T2 need adjusting inline with the T1 variants.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.25 16:03:00 - [27] Originally by: welsh wizard But Caldari ships are too slow and have no agility to properly use a high damage close range weapons system. Besides Javelins still get outdamaged by Blasters by a considerable margin. Do you seriously think an immobile ship with no tackling ability and a 30km weapons system is a good idea? It's quite simple, if CCP want to give us a high damage close range weapons system they need to give us a fast agile ship with which to use it. Actually armor tanking ships with a plate and caldari ships with an extender have very similar agility. And, to repeat myself: 30k (well, if HAM javs at about the same boost as rocket and torp javs a more realistic range would be 40k) is still WAY more than what other races get with their shortrange weapons. Do you seriously think giving a ships shortrange weapon system more range than other ships longrange weapon system is a good idea or in any way resembels balance? Quote: They also need to cater for the extra mids we require to fit a tank, mwd, web and scram. Can you see how this is becoming a bit of a problem? The only alternative is to have a weapons system that does the movement for you while maintaining respectable damage. There is no middle ground.... There is more to PvP than 1v1. Yes, shieldtanking ships will only be able to fit a weak tank if they fit tackling gear, too. But as advantage the can fit for FULL gank and FULL tank at the same time in groups where they have tacklers. Armortankers can fit tackling gear and still can be able to fit a moderate tank & moderate gank. But in groups they will never be able to fit a full tank & full gank, even if they fit not a single tackling module. Both tanking systems behave differently and have their own specific advantages and disadvantages and are pretty balanced vs each other. Shield tanking certainly does not need an boost from higher missile effeciency.
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.25 16:47:00 - [28] Edited by: Verus Potestas on 25/11/2006 16:48:02 They got nerfed on SiSi. Now: 85 damage 8 second flight time 3500m/s Should be 90 damage, otherwise, vast improvement (in balance terms) edit: crap, I was beaten, and didn't notice it because it was added later Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.25 17:29:00 - [29] Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 25/11/2006 17:34:04 Originally by: Jim McGregor Graph Pros * Extreamly superior range * Superior damage. Cons * Delayed first hit (no insta popping frigates) Balanced? Has anyone actually BR'd Javelins or does everyone just yell about them on the forums? I'm suprised though, the Ferox does more damage with Rails than I thought. Almost 150DPS! Such pwnage of a BC. edit: Nevermind, they're now a 63km max range weapon with slightly less DPS. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.25 17:31:00 - [30] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger? When the target is scrambled? The other weapons require a tackler to kill anything. And just how is the Javelin HAM user going to have the target scrambled at range? Oh right, with a tackler, just like other weapons. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Aequitas Veritas TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.25 19:55:00 - [31] Sigh and sigh... turretusers should stop complaining about missiles doing equal or sometimes more damage than their own weapons systems. Delayed damage is really a ****** up thing when you PvP and one deserve to hit harder when it takes you lots of time to reach the target. Ppl should calculate total damage done and not the unrealistic DPS figure which is never correct for missiles... "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.25 20:36:00 - [32] Quote: Actually armor tanking ships with a plate and caldari ships with an extender have very similar agility. You forgot Signiture radius. Caldai ships have the largest signiture radius. This means other ships hit them the hardest. Other race ships take less damage, and shield Extenders Increase Signiture radius even further, meaning Caldari ships are tackled, locked fastest, and take harder hits from all weapon systems. Then Caldari have slow ships, low agility, high mass... The picture is Caldari have ships that are the easiest to lock on to, recieve perfect hits against them the most often, Recieve overall, the most damage against them, can't tackle well, can't get out of tackling range, if Caldari use a MWD, and shield extenders we have signiture radiuses of ships up 1 whole class when compared to other races. Caldari do delayed damage so to calculate DPS, you have to begin the calculation from when the first volley hits, and turret users get more hits in before Caldari start calculating DPS, furthermore there is the tackler problem. Caldari and balance isn't about missles, damage types, etc. You have to look at the whole race, the ships, signiture radius, speed, agility, mass, delayed damage, lack of tackling ability, can't utilize a MWD. Mid slots being used for a tank, and not tracking disruptors, dampers, cap rechargers, we can't use cap relays. Look at the whole picture before making a nerf thread. failure to do so results in your arguments not being taken seriously. It's the same as watching FOX news and after watching 1 report on something, and then declaring to be an expert.
Tetovo Caldari Black Lance Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.25 20:49:00 - [33] Edited by: Tetovo on 25/11/2006 20:50:49 Meh @ javs. Yeah they hit way too far but their damage isn't much to worry about. Your graph doesn't work for this at all. Missiles aren't instant damage, their real DPS changes as range increases. By the time you are at 100k jav HAM probably aren't doing much DPS. It's definitely a number these BC are capable of tanking.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.25 21:08:00 - [34] Edited by: Aramendel on 25/11/2006 21:10:12 Originally by: Kelgen Thann Quote: Actually armor tanking ships with a plate and caldari ships with an extender have very similar agility. You forgot Signiture radius. Caldai ships have the largest signiture radius. This means other ships hit them the hardest. Other race ships take less damage, and shield Extenders Increase Signiture radius even further, meaning Caldari ships are tackled, locked fastest, and take harder hits from all weapon systems. Then Caldari have slow ships, low agility, high mass... And have the best locking range, the most effective EW system, the only EW battleship, the best sniper BS, the best NPCing BS, ... It's not like the general disadvantages of caldari are not balanced by advantages, too. Heavy assault missiles were introduced because missiles lacked a high dps, shortrange weapon system, an analogue to torps and rockets. But a weapon system which can do damage over 1-100 km is no shortrange weapon system. The whole point of one shortrange weapon system is that it exchanges an higher possible range for more dps. A system which can deal high dps with ammo A and achieve high range with ammo B eats the cake and keeps it, too. You cannot rationalize something like that is balanced. A 5-10% higher sig does not make an over 200% higher range over the weapon system with the next highest range (which would be heavy pulse lasers) balanced. A 30% higher one (which would be about 40k), perhaps.
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.25 21:31:00 - [35] Originally by: HypnotiX dont forget that they can even hit ceptors at close range, turrets cant even hit cruisers under 10km tux wake up dude or resign.... IMO he should simply resign.. since the time he's in charge of balancing the Ships & Modules forum is getting flooded by more whining threads each day! Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Arian Snow Minmatar Megalomaniacs at Arms	Posted - 2006.11.25 21:54:00 - [36] Edited by: Arian Snow on 25/11/2006 21:56:39 Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 15:22:34 Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: welsh wizard But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships? No other ship is able to defend itself at range while using short range weapons. Try shooting someone at 50km using blasters loaded with null... it isn't going to work. Why should Caldari be able to hit out to 100km with their "short range" weapon? But your ships are able to manoeuver at high speeds with high agility to compensate. You want Caldari missile ships to be immobile with a short range weapons system right? You need to think a little further before you use that argument. Javelins do the moving so your ship doesn't have to. Ce'? Tell that to the Maelstrom ... its sooo fast and speedy ... O' yeah great argument... I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all!
Benglada Finite Horizon The Red Skull	Posted - 2006.11.25 21:59:00 - [37] Tbh all jave missiles should be removed from the game. --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 22:01:00 - [38] Originally by: Arian Snow Edited by: Arian Snow on 25/11/2006 21:56:39 Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 15:22:34 Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: welsh wizard But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships? No other ship is able to defend itself at range while using short range weapons. Try shooting someone at 50km using blasters loaded with null... it isn't going to work. Why should Caldari be able to hit out to 100km with their "short range" weapon? But your ships are able to manoeuver at high speeds with high agility to compensate. You want Caldari missile ships to be immobile with a short range weapons system right? You need to think a little further before you use that argument. Javelins do the moving so your ship doesn't have to. Ce'? Tell that to the Maelstrom ... its sooo fast and speedy ... O' yeah great argument... And the Maelstrom shares what similarities to shield tanking Caldari missile ships? Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Siakel	Posted - 2006.11.25 22:03:00 - [39] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Arian Snow Edited by: Arian Snow on 25/11/2006 21:56:39 Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 15:22:34 Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: welsh wizard But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships? No other ship is able to defend itself at range while using short range weapons. Try shooting someone at 50km using blasters loaded with null... it isn't going to work. Why should Caldari be able to hit out to 100km with their "short range" weapon? But your ships are able to manoeuver at high speeds with high agility to compensate. You want Caldari missile ships to be immobile with a short range weapons system right? You need to think a little further before you use that argument. Javelins do the moving so your ship doesn't have to. Ce'? Tell that to the Maelstrom ... its sooo fast and speedy ... O' yeah great argument... And the Maelstrom shares what similarities to shield tanking Caldari missile ships? I believe that would be that it's a slow, heavy, shieldtanking ship that doesn't get weapons that 'move so the ship doesn't have to'.
Arian Snow Minmatar Megalomaniacs at Arms	Posted - 2006.11.25 22:09:00 - [40] Edited by: Arian Snow on 25/11/2006 22:08:59 Originally by: Siakel I believe that would be that it's a slow, heavy, shieldtanking ship that doesn't get weapons that 'move so the ship doesn't have to'. spot on! I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all!
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 22:11:00 - [41] Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 22:11:50 I give up, people won't see reason. It's quite bloody simple right? If you want to deny the ship firing range then it has to be able to move and it has to be able to hold its target in place, ESPECIALLY if its payload takes time to hit the target. This is an unbelievably simple concept to grasp. You can't just remove Javelin missile range, speed and damage and be done with it. You either leave it as it is or scrap Javelin altogether and release 2 different tech II missile types with different bonuses and disadvantages. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.25 22:16:00 - [42] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 22:11:50 I give up, people won't see reason. It's quite bloody simple right? If you want to deny the ship firing range then it has to be able to move and it has to be able to hold its target in place, ESPECIALLY if its payload takes time to hit the target. This is an unbelievably simple concept to grasp. You can't just remove Javelin missile range, speed and damage and be done with it. You either leave it as it is or scrap Javelin altogether and release 2 different tech II missile types with different bonuses and disadvantages. you want to move and hold your target in place? this is your argument? well, sounds like you need a tackler to lock your target down LIKE ANYONE ELSE!!! So, do you think everyone that isn't caldari fits a MWD, webber and scrambler on every ship? Or do you think all the turrets insta pop enemies in one volley before they can warp out? i'm leaning towards scrapping javelin altogether, i can aggree w/ you on that much. dont give up, i'm tryin to reason
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.25 22:17:00 - [43] Originally by: welsh wizard It's quite bloody simple right? If you want to deny the ship firing range then it has to be able to move and it has to be able to hold its target in place, ESPECIALLY if its payload takes time to hit the target. This is an unbelievably simple concept to grasp. Try to grasp this: Why do you need to counter a (at worst) 20% slower speed a 200%+ longer range?
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 23:24:00 - [44] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: welsh wizard It's quite bloody simple right? If you want to deny the ship firing range then it has to be able to move and it has to be able to hold its target in place, ESPECIALLY if its payload takes time to hit the target. This is an unbelievably simple concept to grasp. Try to grasp this: Why do you need to counter a (at worst) 20% slower speed a 200%+ longer range? Jesus, if that isn't obvious forget it. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Arian Snow Minmatar Megalomaniacs at Arms	Posted - 2006.11.25 23:38:00 - [45] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 22:11:50 I give up, people won't see reason. It's quite bloody simple right? If you want to deny the ship firing range then it has to be able to move and it has to be able to hold its target in place, ESPECIALLY if its payload takes time to hit the target. This is an unbelievably simple concept to grasp. You can't just remove Javelin missile range, speed and damage and be done with it. You either leave it as it is or scrap Javelin altogether and release 2 different tech II missile types with different bonuses and disadvantages. ce'? Yes it really is quite obvious that you dont fly arty ships... While arties may have instant damage their dps is low their range is low the new arty ship the Maelstrom is slower than your missile Raven! There is NO valid argument as to why shortrange missile boats should have more range than artyboats, which need tacklers i.e webbers and scramblers. The Drake can fit a full tank and go Nano in the lows and be very fast thats what HAMS should be about, HAMs are your long wanted AC/Blaster/Pulse counterpart. HAMs shouldn't be better Heavy missiles, they are meant for short range. Javelin Hams hitting at over 60km makes no sense! I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all!
Estrago Caldari Eve guardians Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.25 23:58:00 - [46] Originally by: Arian Snow ce'? Yes it really is quite obvious that you dont fly arty ships... While arties may have instant damage their dps is low their range is low the new arty ship the Maelstrom is slower than your missile Raven! There is NO valid argument as to why shortrange missile boats should have more range than artyboats, which need tacklers i.e webbers and scramblers. The Drake can fit a full tank and go Nano in the lows and be very fast thats what HAMS should be about, HAMs are your long wanted AC/Blaster/Pulse counterpart. HAMs shouldn't be better Heavy missiles, they are meant for short range. Javelin Hams hitting at over 60km makes no sense! Hey, guess what? Artillery is getting a damage boost in 3 days so quit whining about how underpowered they are. The short range guns can give much better DPS than missiles, so what would balence the short range missiles? How about more range? Would you rather missiles got better damage to make them more compareable with blasters? I'd have no problem with a 10-15KM missile that did twice as much damage. The key thing about missiles is that they are more versitile than guns. Guns are either very good at long or short range, missiles are mediocre at both. Just because missiles don't fit directly in the two catagories that guns do dosn't mean they're unbalenced. It just means they're diffrent. Someone save me from this Sanity.
Arian Snow Minmatar Megalomaniacs at Arms	Posted - 2006.11.26 00:09:00 - [47] Edited by: Arian Snow on 26/11/2006 00:11:09 Originally by: Estrago Originally by: Arian Snow ce'? Yes it really is quite obvious that you dont fly arty ships... While arties may have instant damage their dps is low their range is low the new arty ship the Maelstrom is slower than your missile Raven! There is NO valid argument as to why shortrange missile boats should have more range than artyboats, which need tacklers i.e webbers and scramblers. The Drake can fit a full tank and go Nano in the lows and be very fast thats what HAMS should be about, HAMs are your long wanted AC/Blaster/Pulse counterpart. HAMs shouldn't be better Heavy missiles, they are meant for short range. Javelin Hams hitting at over 60km makes no sense! Hey, guess what? Artillery is getting a damage boost in 3 days so quit whining about how underpowered they are. The short range guns can give much better DPS than missiles, so what would balence the short range missiles? How about more range? Would you rather missiles got better damage to make them more compareable with blasters? I'd have no problem with a 10-15KM missile that did twice as much damage. The key thing about missiles is that they are more versitile than guns. Guns are either very good at long or short range, missiles are mediocre at both. Just because missiles don't fit directly in the two catagories that guns do dosn't mean they're unbalenced. It just means they're diffrent. you should really read what you make an answer to ... I didn't say arties where underpowered... I didn't whine, here. so ? Arty damage with 5% boost will still be low... I dont say its a bad things its a simple fact compared to other turrets.. its okay seen in the light of other things prolly... I didn't whine I just stated the obvious sorry if you failed to see that.. its not my fault! I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all!
juri eight	Posted - 2006.11.26 02:13:00 - [48] can we get missiles that folow thru warp or shoot acrose etire system? :D
Tetovo Caldari Black Lance Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.26 02:24:00 - [49] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 22:11:50 I give up, people won't see reason. It's quite bloody simple right? If you want to deny the ship firing range then it has to be able to move and it has to be able to hold its target in place, ESPECIALLY if its payload takes time to hit the target. This is an unbelievably simple concept to grasp. If you want firing range fit heavies. Same way Minnie, Gallente, Amarr fit Arty/Rails/Beams. You can make a drake move and tackle, you are just mad you can't fit a full tank with it, well too bad the rest of us can't fill all our lows with damage mods and tank as well. You have to give something up if you want something else. The solution is not to load an overpowered tech 2 ammo, its to fit differently.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.26 05:38:00 - [50] Originally by: HankMurphy So, do you think everyone that isn't caldari fits a MWD, webber and scrambler on every ship? Considering all the 'zomg give shipX more mids so I can solo in it better' crap in these forums, yes, I think everyone fits them, or tries to. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Xori Ruscuv Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.26 05:50:00 - [51] Originally by: Benglada Tbh all jave missiles should be removed from the game. /signed What is CCP doing, handing this ***** game to noob little s? this noobsauce bull*. - Rokh with T1 fittings > tech 2 fitted ships with long range setups - Reducing reqs for advanced learning skills to 4 from 5 - Missiles in general, really It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?* This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap...
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:01:00 - [52] Originally by: welsh wizard Jesus, if that isn't obvious forget it. The only "obvious" thing here is that you have no clue about any turret ship mechanics...
Car Wars adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:07:00 - [53] Originally by: Jim McGregor Graph Pros * Extreamly superior range * Superior damage. Cons * Delayed first hit (no insta popping frigates) Balanced? If that where blasters everyone would be murdering ccp now. As it is caldari and it uses no cap at all, it is all balanced and great, with the hitpoint increase and all. Thank you ccp
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:13:00 - [54] Is that graph made witht he amopunt of turret/launcher point each ship ahs in mind ? If so then those javs definately need a heavy nerf yes, in both range as well as damage. Old blog
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:15:00 - [55] Originally by: Rod Blaine Is that graph made witht he amopunt of turret/launcher point each ship ahs in mind ? If so then those javs definately need a heavy nerf yes, in both range as well as damage. No, the Drake has gotten an additional launcher since then. It now has 7 launchers and the graph shows the dps with 6. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:16:00 - [56] Originally by: Rod Blaine Is that graph made witht he amopunt of turret/launcher point each ship ahs in mind ? If so then those javs definately need a heavy nerf yes, in both range as well as damage. First, yes, hardpoints taken into consideration. However, the Drake only has 6 in that pic. Second, they have had their range cut severely (about a half) and about 5% damage lost. Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:23:00 - [57] Edited by: Aramendel on 26/11/2006 11:23:42 They got a slight one. About 5% less dps and range reduced to 60k. Drake got it's 7th launcher back, though, the the dps actually got increased somehwhat. One should note, though, that the graph is without drones and the drake has the smallst dronebay. 5 med on the brutic deal 60 more dps than 5 lights on the drake. The real problem is, though, that we have a frigging shortrange weapon which has longrange weapon range. Originally by: Jim McGregor No, the Drake has gotten an additional launcher since then. It now has 7 launchers and the graph shows the dps with 6. And the damage got reduced from 90 to 85 and range to 63k. An updated graph would be nice there.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:23:00 - [58] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/11/2006 11:25:23 Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Rod Blaine Is that graph made witht he amopunt of turret/launcher point each ship ahs in mind ? If so then those javs definately need a heavy nerf yes, in both range as well as damage. First, yes, hardpoints taken into consideration. However, the Drake only has 6 in that pic. Second, they have had their range cut severely (about a half) and about 5% damage lost. The extra launcher should give Drake +14% dps in the graph, so even if you take away 5% from the nerf, its still insane. But i'll make a new graph with the correct numbers. It wont be any better though. They shouldnt go further than maybe 20 km, or they should have much lower dps. Close combat weapon or long range weapon, ccp decides, but they cant have them both high damage and long range. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:24:00 - [59] Edited by: Verus Potestas on 26/11/2006 11:25:37 IMO, maxed skills, javeHAMs should go about 30km. They should do 90 damage. edit: and at that 30km should be made up of 10km/s speed and 3second flight time Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:27:00 - [60] When you make a new graph please add an harbringer with 7 heavy pulse 2 and conflag to it so we have an comparsion to the shortrange weapon system with the next highest range.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:29:00 - [61] Originally by: Aramendel When you make a new graph please add an harbringer with 7 heavy pulse 2 and conflag to it so we have an comparsion to the shortrange weapon system with the next highest range. Aye, will do. Just have to get on the test server and have a look at the new numbers. Ill post it later today. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Pinky Denmark	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:32:00 - [62] I say it's fine if HAM Javelins get up to 30km + ship bonus... they don't THAT fast so you need to deduct some range due to missile manuvring (call it tracking hehe) Pinky
Danjira Ryuujin	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:49:00 - [63] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 26/11/2006 11:23:42 The real problem is, though, that we have a frigging shortrange weapon which has longrange weapon range. And the damage got reduced from 90 to 85 and range to 63k. An updated graph would be nice there. "If you want to launch long range attacks rather than engage in close quarters combat then this is the skill tree for you"-Player Guide: Fighting. The difference should be between long range, and longer range. Keep in the mind that the longer a missiles range is, the greater it takes for damage to be dealt. Missile dynamics insure this penalty. Explosion velocity and radius of course need to be modified so that at long range small targets take very little damage with these weapons. Javelin torps should have been handled in the same way. Large explosion radius, long fast(for missile) flight.
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:53:00 - [64] For christ sake, I HAVE a long range missile weapon. HEAVY FREAKING MISSILES. We got HAMs because we whined about not having a short range option. So now, let's make HAMs a long range weapon too! Diversity is bad, mkay? Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 12:02:00 - [65] Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin "If you want to launch long range attacks rather than engage in close quarters combat then this is the skill tree for you"-Player Guide: Fighting. If medium blasters and ACs want to get their max performance they need ranges of 5k. Rage HAM are effective to 10k. With longrange ammo ACs and blasters work with high effeciency to 15-20k. Jav HAM are effective to 60k. Long range does not mean that it's shortrange weapons have the same range as other races longrange weapons (and even IF this would be the case jav HAMs are also dealing a good deal more dps - how would you rationalize that?). It means that they have a reasonable higher range than other races with the same weapon system. For high damage ammo thats given, they have about twice as much range. For low damage ammo they have 3-4 times the range, though. Tahts not reasonable, thats rediculous.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.26 12:22:00 - [66] I updated the graph and I still dont like what im seeing here... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.26 12:24:00 - [67] Halve javeHAM range again (slightly more than halve it), stick them back to 90 damage each and it's all good. Close. Range. Weapon. The DPS isn't the problem, the range is. Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.11.26 12:26:00 - [68] Originally by: Jim McGregor I updated the graph and I still dont like what im seeing here... Could you try one where the myrmidon has it's 5 ogre II deployed I wouldn't mind shorter range and 90 in damage again..
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 12:29:00 - [69] Edited by: Aramendel on 26/11/2006 12:35:30 Originally by: Jim McGregor I updated the graph and I still dont like what im seeing here... Uuups, sorry Jim, I gave you the wrong crystal, scortch, not conflag. I confused the short and longrange pulse laser crystals. Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Could you try one where the myrmidon has it's 5 ogre II deployed One could argue that heavy drones are not exactly long range weapons, though. They owuld need 1 minute to get to the target at 60k - if it isn't moving. If it's at 500 m/s they will need 2 and if it's 1000 m/s or faster they will never reach it. Vs an immobile target both the drake with jav HAMs and a myr with 5 ogres 2 would have about the same dps, though, yes. But ogres have a considerably more serious drawbacks.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.26 12:32:00 - [70] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/11/2006 12:37:24 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Jim McGregor I updated the graph and I still dont like what im seeing here... Uuups, sorry Jim, I gave you the wrong crystal, scortch, not conflag. I confused the short and longrange pulse laser crystals. Ok, fixed it. :) But why not use heavy beams? Then you have the range of the artillery ships, but crappy damage just like the rest of us. You have about 30 dps more than the artillery hurricane and the railgun brutix if you use those, but javelins still run us all over. Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Originally by: Jim McGregor I updated the graph and I still dont like what im seeing here... Could you try one where the myrmidon has it's 5 ogre II deployed I wouldn't mind shorter range and 90 in damage again.. No, because then this thread will be taken over by gallente players arguing the myrmidon is balanced... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 13:19:00 - [71] Originally by: Jim McGregor Ok, fixed it. :) But why not use heavy beams? Then you have the range of the artillery ships, but crappy damage just like the rest of us. You have about 30 dps more than the artillery hurricane and the railgun brutix if you use those, but javelins still run us all over. Because it is IMO better to compare them with other shortrange weapon systems. Sure they are too strong vs the longrange weapons, but you also have to look at their performance vs other shortrange weapons, so they do not get too weak vs them. For example, the harbs weapons outdamage other races longrange eapons also, but only up to 30-35k. Javelin also now gets outranged by other races longrange weapons, but only in the very edge of their range. It still has a bit too much range. But if you compare it vs the harb it gets obvious that a 30k range for them - as some people suggested - would be too low. One of 40-45k seems decent to me, it gives it a reasonable range where it outdamages the harbringer and gives longrange weapons a decent window where they outdamage the javs.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.26 13:25:00 - [72] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/11/2006 13:26:39 Originally by: Aramendel But if you compare it vs the harb it gets obvious that a 30k range for them - as some people suggested - would be too low. One of 40-45k seems decent to me, it gives it a reasonable range where it outdamages the harbringer and gives longrange weapons a decent window where they outdamage the javs. I dont know... if they had a range of 40-45k, I would never use medium artillery. The delayed damage of 6-7 seconds in the beginning of the fight is nothing, and alpha strike doesnt mean anything with the increased hitpoints. Missiles catch up very fast. And then you have all the other advantages of missiles with consistent damage and no misses. So I would use the Drake. Much better tanking than the other battlecruisers, and much better dps as well, at medium range (20k to 45k or whatever ccp thinks is fair). Its simply the absolute best choice if this goes live. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 13:46:00 - [73] Originally by: Jim McGregor Otherwise, if Javelins went about 20k, it would be pretty fair. Such a graph would show javelins have good damage at 20k, and worst damage at 0k compared to autocannons/blasters. Seems balanced to me. And would get significantly outdamaged (and also outranged) by heavy pulses. The range where HAMs outdamage med ACs will then also be prolly very small, too (if it is even there at all). The drake still has it's tanking bonus, of cource, but it's IMO not THAT good to justify making the weapons subpar for any range.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.26 14:10:00 - [74] Edited by: welsh wizard on 26/11/2006 14:15:57 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: welsh wizard Jesus, if that isn't obvious forget it. The only "obvious" thing here is that you have no clue about any turret ship mechanics... Are we discussing turret ships? Can one of you lot please confirm my suspicions. Do you think that a missile ship that moves at approximately 50m/s, has no capacity to fit an mwd/web and has a maximum weapon range of 30km with an average - high damage payload balanced? I'd appreciate it if someone could answer that. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.26 14:31:00 - [75] Originally by: welsh wizard Do you think that a missile ship that moves at approximately 50m/s, has no capacity to fit an mwd/web and has a maximum weapon range of 30km with an average - high damage payload balanced? I'd appreciate it if someone could answer that. I think 30 km would be a balanced max range for Javelins, yeah. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Arte	Posted - 2006.11.26 14:38:00 - [76] Originally by: welsh wizard But Caldari ships are too slow and have no agility to properly use a high damage close range weapons system. Besides Javelins still get outdamaged by Blasters by a considerable margin. cough the deimos has the same problem and it's supposed to be the uber close range high damage cruiser... effective range... <10km. Your arguement, though well presented and valid in almost every respect, falls apart when you try to say it's a caldari problem which justifies you being able to reach out and touch someone up to medium-long ranges with a short range weapon system.
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.11.26 14:58:00 - [77] Originally by: Aramendel One could argue that heavy drones are not exactly long range weapons, though. They owuld need 1 minute to get to the target at 60k - if it isn't moving. If it's at 500 m/s they will need 2 and if it's 1000 m/s or faster they will never reach it. Vs an immobile target both the drake with jav HAMs and a myr with 5 ogres 2 would have about the same dps, though, yes. But ogres have a considerably more serious drawbacks. Well HAM javelins are not exactly long range either, and as far as I know this thread is about keeping the "close" range weapons to be close range. So why not limit the range of the drones to 30km also if they are, as you say, a close range system?? And yet these graphs are as biased as they can possible be. I know Jim is trying to show how underpowered the hurrican is compared to the drake and the others new BCs. But what I don't understand is why he 'forgot' to use the last 2 highslots on the hurricane for launchers?? The drake can't fit a turret in the last highslot but the huricane can fit 2 missile launchers. I would also really like if he could keep the transversal velocity, the radius and the velocity for the target so we can see what those stats are. I would like these graphs to be fair and not just an excuse to rant away
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 14:59:00 - [78] Edited by: Aramendel on 26/11/2006 15:03:19 Originally by: welsh wizard Are we discussing turret ships? We are discussing the balance of a missle system vs turret systems, so yes, we are discussing turret ships. Quote: Do you think that a missile ship that moves at approximately 50m/s, has no capacity to fit an mwd/web and has a maximum weapon range of 30km with an average - high damage payload balanced? 30k, no, at least if you compare it vs the harbringer. 40k - hell, yes, especially considering it has a tanking bonus. It will then still have the highest range of all shortrange weapons and any shortrnge weapon should be outranged by longrange weapons. And these ships with longrange weapons typically do not have the grid to fit MWDs, etc either without fitting upgrades. Nor can use webbers or scramblers at that range. Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Well HAM javelins are not exactly long range either, and as far as I know this thread is about keeping the "close" range weapons to be close range. So why not limit the range of the drones to 30km also if they are, as you say, a close range system?? And yet these graphs are as biased as they can possible be. Drones in general, no, that would be like limiting all missiles to the same range. I would have personally no problem with limiting lights to 60k, meds to 40k and heavies to 20k, though. (Although drone nav comps and in the case of the ishkur ship skills should be able to boost that.)
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.26 15:04:00 - [79] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/11/2006 15:06:45 Originally by: Lucian Corvinus I know Jim is trying to show how underpowered the hurrican is compared to the drake and the others new BCs. But what I don't understand is why he 'forgot' to use the last 2 highslots on the hurricane for launchers?? The drake can't fit a turret in the last highslot but the huricane can fit 2 missile launchers. I would also really like if he could keep the transversal velocity, the radius and the velocity for the target so we can see what those stats are. I would like these graphs to be fair and not just an excuse to rant away Drake is overpowered with Javelins compared to every other battlecruiser in the game with their best medium range guns. The reason I dont put launchers on a Hurricane with 720's is that then you can forget about any sort of tank on it. Fit 6 720's and you are out of powergrid. Add reactor controls and you can put some launchers on it, but you have no tank at all. That should be set in relation to the Drake, which can fit a mean tank while also having the best dps in this league of weapons. Im not trying to show a false picture here. I belive it to be very accurate. As for your transversal velocity, it wont affect this situation because speed only affects missiles when you travel REALLY fast, and you cant do that with railgun/artillery ships because then your tracking makes you miss everything. Tracking is something that guns have and missiles dont you know. This graph is the PERFECT situation for turrets with nobody moving. If anything, turret dps will be lower in reality if the ships arent standing still. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.26 19:07:00 - [80] Edited by: welsh wizard on 26/11/2006 19:08:01 You know what? Nerf it, I'm patient enough to wait for the inevitable buff in a few months time. Only actual game time will show whats what. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.26 22:12:00 - [81] Originally by: welsh wizard You know what? Nerf it, I'm patient enough to wait for the inevitable buff in a few months time. Only actual game time will show whats what. Show me the day CCP decide that what the game really needs is a close range weapon going 100km (sans bonuses), and I'll show you the day acid gets legalised in Iceland. Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy

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