Actually the worst thing for new players is other players, really. I think it would just be best to remove everyone, in one progressive swoop. This is idea is not any worse than all the hilarious nonsense people have been spouting over the years in regards to "newbies catching up" and "this game should be made easier".

Attributes better reflect real life. It's typical to say be a better artist than to be a better programmer. Or to be a better fictional writer than to be a better mathamatician. Otherwise there would be no such need for things like college placement tests etc.

Also EVE reflects more traditional rpg style gaming such as you find in MUD's or table top gaming (e.g dnd), not mario kart or pac man. This is far better suited for the rpg type player.

If you make a game try to be everything for everyone, you only make a game for no one.

Yes except in most RPGs attributes actually have an in game effect on your character and other players. A high strength character hits harder or wears heavier armor. A high agility character can ride motorcycles instead of cars, or access pathways other people can't. Those attributes meaningfully and obviously differentiate characters by power and ability.

In EVE, being in fleet with a high Perception FC does nothing for your game experience. Taking a contract from a high Charisma person has no effect. Downing boosters while you have high Willpower doesn't cut down hangovers.

I'm not saying they should. But the attributes in Eve fail to provide the RP part of RPG that attributes serve in most other titles in the genre. Many a newbro have probably been disappointed to learn that no, having higher Memory doesn't let you train more skills at once or show a cloaked ship's last known position. They're just lame training stats.

Yes except in most RPGs attributes actually have an in game effect on your character and other players. A high strength character hits harder or wears heavier armor. A high agility character can ride motorcycles instead of cars, or access pathways other people can't. Those attributes meaningfully and obviously differentiate characters by power and ability.

In EVE, being in fleet with a high Perception FC does nothing for your game experience. Taking a contract from a high Charisma person has no effect. Downing boosters while you have high Willpower doesn't cut down hangovers.

I'm not saying they should. But the attributes in Eve fail to provide the RP part of RPG that attributes serve in most other titles in the genre. Many a newbro have probably been disappointed to learn that no, having higher Memory doesn't let you train more skills at once or show a cloaked ship's last known position. They're just lame training stats.

Yes except in most RPGs attributes actually have an in game effect on your character and other players. A high strength character hits harder or wears heavier armor. A high agility character can ride motorcycles instead of cars, or access pathways other people can't. Those attributes meaningfully and obviously differentiate characters by power and ability.

In EVE, being in fleet with a high Perception FC does nothing for your game experience. Taking a contract from a high Charisma person has no effect. Downing boosters while you have high Willpower doesn't cut down hangovers.

I'm not saying they should. But the attributes in Eve fail to provide the RP part of RPG that attributes serve in most other titles in the genre. Many a newbro have probably been disappointed to learn that no, having higher Memory doesn't let you train more skills at once or show a cloaked ship's last known position. They're just lame training stats.

I think this is what happens when 3 million people suddenly quit WoW and every game forum is filled with 'make this game easy naow'. Attributes aren't the problem.

lol... whenever I see people talk about SP I still think 'spellpower'

As far as I can tell the attribute system is there to punish you if you have the nerve to change your mind about your skill plan 6 months after you remapped.

Actually the worst thing for new players is other players, really. I think it would just be best to remove everyone, in one progressive swoop. This is idea is not any worse than all the hilarious nonsense people have been spouting over the years in regards to "newbies catching up" and "this game should be made easier".

I don't like the system because as a min maxer it forces me to plan around pointless arbitrary figures that have no meaningful in game effect.

As for character differentiation, that's what overpriced digital apparel is for, and the best part is other players can actually see it.

BRB resigning from CSM because I have a subjective opinion on what constitutes fun. I'll let Xenuria know where my parking spot was.

Attributes are much like that here, such as a means to an end, and in ways reflect real life. You take that out, you have just another mario kart. Replace it with what everyone else is doing, you simply dumb the game down to just another clone of something or another.

The current system offers a challenge. It's not so simple that you can just click away and everything will just be dandy in the end. The system provides not only challenge, but consequences for our actions, or lack thereof. A mental challenge, a puzzle, even at times a paradox, that we must wrap our minds around and reason our way through.

For me personally I just see them and attribute implants as an extra thing to put new players off PVP. For people I know who play, they're just a nuisance and they wouldn't care if they were gone, just something you have to remap once in awhile and spend money on, yet it adds nothing to the experience.

If you made that change and removed the pure learning implants that encourage people to be docked up studying, you'd have a nice tension that would encourage balanced characters and discourage min/max silliness.

I'll let Xenuria know where my parking spot was.

Should all skill training be at a flat rate... I don't know honestly. Part of me says yes, part of me says no. It is an interesting thing to micromanage.

Attributes are a thing from olden times and arguably one of the mistakes that were made in the initial design document of EVE Online (along with space mines, warping to 15km off a gate and skillpoint loss on death). They made character creation a serious thing that people had to put thought into, at least that was the idea. After a few years of having people play the game, it was pretty obvious that wasn't happening and people complained in hordes about their awful stats.

Yearly remaps were introduced to compensate but that only made attributes more horrible than they already were. Instead of a meaningful choice, they were now turned into a needlessly complicated mechanic that one is somewhat forced to dabble into for maximum return on skill training speed.

Attributes themselves need to go as a mechanic. Should all skill training be at a flat rate... I don't know honestly. Part of me says yes, part of me says no. It is an interesting thing to micromanage, but there have to be ways to make it more accessible to the more casual players. The current way of needing a third party program to figure out the ideal attributes for a particular skill list is hard to work with and absolutely not player friendly.

By this CSM's guys vocal interjections here, can we derive that the CSM is actively supporting an Attribute-less, SP-less CCP future?

Attributes themselves need to go as a mechanic.

First, the figures are quite plainly not "pointless", if that were the case then people wouldn't be on here complaining that they have to put in some mental effort to maximise their character training speed.

Actually, if you sat back a bit, ask a few questions, and keep your opinion to your self, you might pick up more than just angst.

BRB resigning from CSM because I have a subjective opinion on what constitutes fun. I'll let Xenuria know where my parking spot was.

Yes except in most RPGs attributes actually have an in game effect on your character and other players. A high strength character hits harder or wears heavier armor. A high agility character can ride motorcycles instead of cars, or access pathways other people can't. Those attributes meaningfully and obviously differentiate characters by power and ability.

In EVE, being in fleet with a high Perception FC does nothing for your game experience. Taking a contract from a high Charisma person has no effect. Downing boosters while you have high Willpower doesn't cut down hangovers.

I'm not saying they should. But the attributes in Eve fail to provide the RP part of RPG that attributes serve in most other titles in the genre. Many a newbro have probably been disappointed to learn that no, having higher Memory doesn't let you train more skills at once or show a cloaked ship's last known position. They're just lame training stats.

Attributes and Skill Groups

These are the main attributes associated with each category of your skill tree.

Corporation Management: (Memory / Charisma)

Drones: (Memory / Perception)

Electronics: (Intelligence / Memory)

Engineering: (Intelligence / Memory)

Gunnery: (Perception / Willpower)

Industry: (Memory / Intelligence)

Leadership: (Charisma / Willpower)

Mechanic: (Intelligence / Memory)

Missile: (Perception / Willpower)

Navigation: (Intelligence / Perception)

Science: (Intelligence / Memory)

Social: (Charisma / Intelligence)

Spaceship Command: (Perception / Willpower)

Subsystems: (Intelligence / Perception)

Trade: (Charisma / Willpower)

The rhetorical hoops people will jump through to defend a system that comprises SWITCHING FIVE NUMBERS ONCE PER YEAR is quite entertaining.

We've seen it been said that if you cannot switch five numbers once per year, Eve will become Mario Kart or WoW. If you take away the annual number swap, the game will lose significant depth. If you can't adjust the value of five integers every 365 days, characters become cookie cutter copies of each other, regardless of skills trained, accomplishments made, or personal lore.

Just close your eyes and imagine one year from now you somehow survived without editing five integer fields over the span of fifteen gameplay seconds. Try to remain calm during this process.

Even now you fail to acknowledge the impact attributes have on game, take into consideration implants too, and see how CCP fails to breake the system because it is in fact good, all encompasing feature. Try to simple down the implants too, modules, or even ships. You can simpoe down everything, into an flat, uninteresting plain where everybody can jump at the same height.

The game you are describing is called Pong.

The rhetorical hoops people will jump through to defend a system that comprises SWITCHING FIVE NUMBERS ONCE PER YEAR is quite entertaining.

The game you are describing is called Pong.