EVE Search - What are Attributes for and why are they still in the game?

All Channels

EVE General Discussion

What are Attributes for and why are they still in the game?

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page]
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
GAJY The Monkey Island Cannibals 4	Posted - 2015.07.07 14:14:13 - [1] - Quote For me personally I just see them and attribute implants as an extra thing to put new players off PVP. For people I know who play, they're just a nuisance and they wouldn't care if they were gone, just something you have to remap once in awhile and spend money on, yet it adds nothing to the experience.
Angelica Dreamstar Miner's House of ill repute 690	Posted - 2015.07.07 14:21:16 - [2] - Quote People use new players as argument for and against anything nowadays. Would you prefer the game tries to reach out for everyone?Where would the smart people go then? It's really like doing community work and when you don't see me post I had a day off. We have thirty five degree here! Asphalt's melting everywhere, sticking on MY SHOES! Can't even smoke, the cig dries out after a minute. What clothes do I wear? :)
Ivant Sumboodi Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 21	Posted - 2015.07.07 14:29:42 - [3] - Quote idk about smart people, I just don't want the i-win people to get carte blanche here. There's always an i-win for people like OP, it's called Character Bazaar. Use it.
Commissar Rain Team Evil 569	Posted - 2015.07.07 14:30:26 - [4] - Quote Skills are bad for new players too. Along with ISK. Remove both. Also you don't spend money to do remaps. Member of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
Gregor Parud Ordo Ardish 1456	Posted - 2015.07.07 14:44:46 - [5] - Quote Commissar Rain wrote: Skills are bad for new players too. Along with ISK. Remove both. Also you don't spend money to do remaps. Actually the worst thing for new players is other players, really. I think it would just be best to remove everyone, in one progressive swoop. This is idea is not any worse than all the hilarious nonsense people have been spouting over the years in regards to "newbies catching up" and "this game should be made easier".
Hengle Teron Explosions Delivered with Love 54674	Posted - 2015.07.07 14:47:02 - [6] - Quote They are there, so we can either choose to train anything at same speed, or limit ourselves only to specific skill groups, but train those faster.
Yarda Black Militaris Industries Northern Coalition. 755	Posted - 2015.07.07 14:49:58 - [7] - Quote They're looking at ways to remove attributes, but the existence of implants is complicating matters. I cant find the source atm, but if you google, search etc you can probably find it. There is probably a discussion about it you can join. The "basic" skills are also being looked at. Mostly in the form of beefing up starting skillpoints so n00bs can actually warp from gate to gate for example.
stoicfaux 6071	Posted - 2015.07.07 15:10:47 - [8] - Quote Yarda Black wrote: They're looking at ways to remove attributes, but the existence of implants is complicating matters. I cant find the source atm, but if you google, search etc you can probably find it. There is probably a discussion about it you can join. The "basic" skills are also being looked at. Mostly in the form of beefing up starting skillpoints so n00bs can actually warp from gate to gate for example. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=432569&find=unread Q: 'Attributes aren't very interesting, you should remove them' A: Again, we agree. Team Size Matters discussed removing them on the o7 show (or some other public venue) awhile back and it's still something we are very interested in. We need to figure out a good way to handle all the learning implants in the game though, which is actually a difficult problem. If any of you have awesome ideas for how to handle it don't hesitate to make suggestions. If you have feedback or ideas about the New Player Experience, then you will want to post in that thread. Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 24135	Posted - 2015.07.07 15:17:36 - [9] - Quote Yarda Black wrote: Mostly in the form of beefing up starting skillpoints so n00bs can actually warp from gate to gate for example. I hope to, insert deity of choice, that this is sarcasm Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 367	Posted - 2015.07.07 15:20:46 - [10] - Quote GAJY wrote: yet it adds nothing to the experience. Same as you for me. You exist, thats all. ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)
Gaellia Bonaventure EVE University Ivy League 4185	Posted - 2015.07.07 15:44:00 - [11] - Quote Just remove all the players from the game and everything will be fine. Bring your possibles.
Yarda Black Militaris Industries Northern Coalition. 757	Posted - 2015.07.07 16:06:51 - [12] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Yarda Black wrote: Mostly in the form of beefing up starting skillpoints so n00bs can actually warp from gate to gate for example. I hope to, insert deity of choice, that this is sarcasm You wish lol Im sorry to say your deity failed you and gave us "warpdrive operation"
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 24138	Posted - 2015.07.07 16:12:30 - [13] - Quote Yarda Black wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Yarda Black wrote: Mostly in the form of beefing up starting skillpoints so n00bs can actually warp from gate to gate for example. I hope to, insert deity of choice, that this is sarcasm You wish lol Im sorry to say your deity failed you and gave us "warpdrive operation" ahh I read that the wrong way . I read it as "newbies can't warp to a gate because of SP" Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Baaldor Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion. 348	Posted - 2015.07.07 16:22:16 - [14] - Quote FFS, just convert the game to Pong and be done with it. As that is the direction of this game anyhow.
Webvan All Kill No Skill 10761	Posted - 2015.07.07 16:30:34 - [15] - Quote I think this is what happens when 3 million people suddenly quit WoW and every game forum is filled with 'make this game easy naow'. Attributes aren't the problem.
Chance Ravinne WiNGSPAN Delivery Services 282	Posted - 2015.07.07 17:15:28 - [16] - Quote Attributes aren't the Big Bad, but they're certainly an unintuitive and unfun system. The mourning process following their demise will be short. You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Baaldor Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion. 352	Posted - 2015.07.07 18:20:17 - [17] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: Attributes aren't the Big Bad, but they're certainly an unintuitive and unfun system. The mourning process following their demise will be short. I think it really separates pilots a bit as to make them a wee bit different. meaning that it is another way of adjusting (or not) the process of learning something another pilot may not value as much and able to pool or push their attributes towards that direction. It gives a slightl uniqueness to one pilot verses another rather than the vanilla cookie cutter stamp out some sort of *character* etc etc.
Algarion Getz Aideron Corp 39	Posted - 2015.07.07 20:03:06 - [18] - Quote GAJY wrote: yet it adds nothing to the experience. They add an option to specialise your character. This is surely not the best way to do it, but if they remove it, another option to customize your character is gone. I know CCP needs to reduce unnecessary complexity to keep new players, but if you make everything easy and straightforward EVE wouldnt be EVE anymore. Change attributes or if you remove them, give us another way to customize our character (this does not mean more cosmetics). EDIT: This: Baaldor wrote: Chance Ravinne wrote: Attributes aren't the Big Bad, but they're certainly an unintuitive and unfun system. The mourning process following their demise will be short. I think it really separates pilots a bit as to make them a wee bit different. meaning that it is another way of adjusting (or not) the process of learning something another pilot may not value as much and able to pool or push their attributes towards that direction. It gives a slightl uniqueness to one pilot verses another rather than the vanilla cookie cutter stamp out some sort of *character* etc etc.
stoicfaux 6078	Posted - 2015.07.07 20:06:54 - [19] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: Attributes aren't the Big Bad, but they're certainly an unintuitive and unfun system. The mourning process following their demise will be short. The 30 day accelerated learning boosters/implants sold in the NES will help ease the sense of loss. Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux 6078	Posted - 2015.07.07 20:18:20 - [20] - Quote Baaldor wrote: Chance Ravinne wrote: Attributes aren't the Big Bad, but they're certainly an unintuitive and unfun system. The mourning process following their demise will be short. I think it really separates pilots a bit as to make them a wee bit different. meaning that it is another way of adjusting (or not) the process of learning something another pilot may not value as much and able to pool or push their attributes towards that direction. It gives a slightl uniqueness to one pilot verses another rather than the vanilla cookie cutter stamp out some sort of *character* etc etc. I can't even agree that they provided even a "slight uniqueness" between pilots. Uniqueness between pilots implies character. Attributes are simply a min-maxing technique to optimize your yearly skill plan. Based on a character's attributes, do you go around saying things like, oh hey, that pilot is smart! Or that pilot is charismatic? Do you fly combat ships because your pilot has high perception? Do you only do industry with your high intelligence characters? What is the average Charisma attribute of Fleet Commanders? I would guess that even role-players don't take their attributes seriously. Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Baaldor Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion. 356	Posted - 2015.07.07 20:26:52 - [21] - Quote stoicfaux wrote: Baaldor wrote: Chance Ravinne wrote: Attributes aren't the Big Bad, but they're certainly an unintuitive and unfun system. The mourning process following their demise will be short. I think it really separates pilots a bit as to make them a wee bit different. meaning that it is another way of adjusting (or not) the process of learning something another pilot may not value as much and able to pool or push their attributes towards that direction. It gives a slightl uniqueness to one pilot verses another rather than the vanilla cookie cutter stamp out some sort of *character* etc etc. I can't even agree that they provided even a "slight uniqueness" between pilots. Uniqueness between pilots implies character. Attributes are simply a min-maxing technique to optimize your yearly skill plan. Based on a character's attributes, do you go around saying things like, oh hey, that pilot is smart! Or that pilot is charismatic? Do you fly combat ships because your pilot has high perception? Do you only do industry with your high intelligence characters? What is the average Charisma attribute of Fleet Commanders? I would guess that even role-players don't take their attributes seriously. You read into what I was saying possibly. I guess where I am coming from is when you have a focus as to where you are going with your character, you will manipulate the stats to achieve. I said 'A BIT' and 'SLIGHT' not some dramatic differences. You know nuances. subtle differences? You see it all of the time in the character bazaar, there is no two pilots exactly alike. And as far as role playing...where in the fck did you get that from.
d0cTeR9 Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance 196	Posted - 2015.07.07 21:10:47 - [22] - Quote GAJY wrote: For me personally I just see them and attribute implants as an extra thing to put new players off PVP. For people I know who play, they're just a nuisance and they wouldn't care if they were gone, just something you have to remap once in awhile and spend money on, yet it adds nothing to the experience. No one is forcing you to use implants. Your car (if you are old enough to drive) can go above the speed limit. Maybe we should electronically limit it to the speed limit while we are at it... Personally when i have a 65 day skill to train and i stick some implants, i can take a week or two off that. That's pretty cool.
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 110	Posted - 2015.07.08 01:10:00 - [23] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: Attributes aren't the Big Bad, but they're certainly an unintuitive and unfun system. The mourning process following their demise will be short. Speak for yourself, I find the decisions which the current system present the player quite interesting, and if your looking for a game in which things are intuitive then your in the wrong game. Removing attributes would fix literally nothing and at the same time remove an element of the game some players find interesting. If you don't like the system then just put on a balanced remap and you can train your skills however you like.
Angelica Dreamstar Miner's House of ill repute 720	Posted - 2015.07.08 01:38:14 - [24] - Quote Webvan wrote: I think this is what happens when 3 million people suddenly quit WoW and every game forum is filled with 'make this game easy naow'. Attributes aren't the problem. Dang, you're right! It's really like doing community work and when you don't see me post I had a day off. We have thirty five degree here! Asphalt's melting everywhere, sticking on MY SHOES! Can't even smoke, the cig dries out after a minute. What clothes do I wear? :)
Harrison Tato Yamato Holdings 420	Posted - 2015.07.08 02:00:58 - [25] - Quote Angelica Dreamstar wrote: Webvan wrote: I think this is what happens when 3 million people suddenly quit WoW and every game forum is filled with 'make this game easy naow'. Attributes aren't the problem. Dang, you're right! Or 8 year olds who think spelling now, naow, is cute.
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 22	Posted - 2015.07.08 02:08:36 - [26] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: Attributes aren't the Big Bad, but they're certainly an unintuitive and unfun system. The mourning process following their demise will be short. Sometimes I go back and read how loudly, insistently and staunchly people defended Learning skills, just to see how much of a tempest in a teapot the Starter SP/Attribute removal conversations are.
Webvan All Kill No Skill 10767	Posted - 2015.07.08 02:22:37 - [27] - Quote Harrison Tato wrote: Angelica Dreamstar wrote: Webvan wrote: I think this is what happens when 3 million people suddenly quit WoW and every game forum is filled with 'make this game easy naow'. Attributes aren't the problem. Dang, you're right! Or 8 year olds who think spelling now, naow, is cute. needs moar cowbell
Chance Ravinne WiNGSPAN Delivery Services 282	Posted - 2015.07.08 03:39:33 - [28] - Quote Moac Tor wrote: Chance Ravinne wrote: Attributes aren't the Big Bad, but they're certainly an unintuitive and unfun system. The mourning process following their demise will be short. Speak for yourself, I find the decisions which the current system present the player quite interesting, and if your looking for a game in which things are intuitive then your in the wrong game. Removing attributes would fix literally nothing and at the same time remove an element of the game some players find interesting. If you don't like the system then just put on a balanced remap and you can train your skills however you like. I don't like the system because as a min maxer it forces me to plan around pointless arbitrary figures that have no meaningful in game effect. As for character differentiation, that's what overpriced digital apparel is for, and the best part is other players can actually see it. You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Angelica Dreamstar Miner's House of ill repute 729	Posted - 2015.07.08 10:56:49 - [29] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: Moac Tor wrote: Chance Ravinne wrote: Attributes aren't the Big Bad, but they're certainly an unintuitive and unfun system. The mourning process following their demise will be short. Speak for yourself, I find the decisions which the current system present the player quite interesting, and if your looking for a game in which things are intuitive then your in the wrong game. Removing attributes would fix literally nothing and at the same time remove an element of the game some players find interesting. If you don't like the system then just put on a balanced remap and you can train your skills however you like. I don't like the system because as a min maxer it forces me to plan around pointless arbitrary figures that have no meaningful in game effect. As for character differentiation, that's what overpriced digital apparel is for, and the best part is other players can actually see it. It's not about wearing fancy clothes, it's about fancy clothes hiding what is underneath ... It's really like doing community work and when you don't see me post I had a day off. We have thirty five degree here! Asphalt's melting everywhere, sticking on MY SHOES! Can't even smoke, the cig dries out after a minute. What clothes do I wear? :)
Webvan All Kill No Skill 10771	Posted - 2015.07.08 13:31:30 - [30] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: I don't like the system because as a min maxer it forces me to plan around pointless arbitrary figures that have no meaningful in game effect. As for character differentiation, that's what overpriced digital apparel is for, and the best part is other players can actually see it. Attributes better reflect real life. It's typical to say be a better artist than to be a better programmer. Or to be a better fictional writer than to be a better mathamatician. Otherwise there would be no such need for things like college placement tests etc. Also EVE reflects more traditional rpg style gaming such as you find in MUD's or table top gaming (e.g dnd), not mario kart or pac man. This is far better suited for the rpg type player. If you make a game try to be everything for everyone, you only make a game for no one.
Kaldi Tsukaya Deveron Shipyards and Technology 151	Posted - 2015.07.08 13:45:37 - [31] - Quote If they remove attributes, will I lose my spell-casting abilities? Maybe some scrolls could be dropped into the game... oh wait, there's still potions
George Gouillot Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 68	Posted - 2015.07.08 13:50:04 - [32] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: Commissar Rain wrote: Skills are bad for new players too. Along with ISK. Remove both. Also you don't spend money to do remaps. Actually the worst thing for new players is other players, really. I think it would just be best to remove everyone, in one progressive swoop. This is idea is not any worse than all the hilarious nonsense people have been spouting over the years in regards to "newbies catching up" and "this game should be made easier". This is WiP already, just be patient ...
Chance Ravinne WiNGSPAN Delivery Services 286	Posted - 2015.07.08 14:48:53 - [33] - Quote Webvan wrote: Chance Ravinne wrote: I don't like the system because as a min maxer it forces me to plan around pointless arbitrary figures that have no meaningful in game effect. As for character differentiation, that's what overpriced digital apparel is for, and the best part is other players can actually see it. Attributes better reflect real life. It's typical to say be a better artist than to be a better programmer. Or to be a better fictional writer than to be a better mathamatician. Otherwise there would be no such need for things like college placement tests etc. Also EVE reflects more traditional rpg style gaming such as you find in MUD's or table top gaming (e.g dnd), not mario kart or pac man. This is far better suited for the rpg type player. If you make a game try to be everything for everyone, you only make a game for no one. Yes except in most RPGs attributes actually have an in game effect on your character and other players. A high strength character hits harder or wears heavier armor. A high agility character can ride motorcycles instead of cars, or access pathways other people can't. Those attributes meaningfully and obviously differentiate characters by power and ability. In EVE, being in fleet with a high Perception FC does nothing for your game experience. Taking a contract from a high Charisma person has no effect. Downing boosters while you have high Willpower doesn't cut down hangovers. I'm not saying they should. But the attributes in Eve fail to provide the RP part of RPG that attributes serve in most other titles in the genre. Many a newbro have probably been disappointed to learn that no, having higher Memory doesn't let you train more skills at once or show a cloaked ship's last known position. They're just lame training stats. You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Webvan All Kill No Skill 10771	Posted - 2015.07.08 15:26:21 - [34] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: Yes except in most RPGs attributes actually have an in game effect on your character and other players. A high strength character hits harder or wears heavier armor. A high agility character can ride motorcycles instead of cars, or access pathways other people can't. Those attributes meaningfully and obviously differentiate characters by power and ability. In EVE, being in fleet with a high Perception FC does nothing for your game experience. Taking a contract from a high Charisma person has no effect. Downing boosters while you have high Willpower doesn't cut down hangovers. I'm not saying they should. But the attributes in Eve fail to provide the RP part of RPG that attributes serve in most other titles in the genre. Many a newbro have probably been disappointed to learn that no, having higher Memory doesn't let you train more skills at once or show a cloaked ship's last known position. They're just lame training stats. I am definitely one that believes every game I play should be very different from one another (my exp from nearly 40yrs of video gaming as well as my own projects). That being said, I find EVE to be set apart from all other games currently on the market (most being WoW clones now perhaps). I don't want every game to be the same, and I don't need or even want instant gratification. Attributes are much like that here, such as a means to an end, and in ways reflect real life. You take that out, you have just another mario kart. Replace it with what everyone else is doing, you simply dumb the game down to just another clone of something or another. The current system offers a challenge. It's not so simple that you can just click away and everything will just be dandy in the end. The system provides not only challenge, but consequences for our actions, or lack thereof. A mental challenge, a puzzle, even at times a paradox, that we must wrap our minds around and reason our way through. The only real issue I have with the system currently is that while so many changes are rolling out to the game, the 1yr remap timer is a little underwhelming currently. Not at all times, I think it's a great system, but during times of rapid change it can be a little restrictive. But I'm sure as the current state of game development progresses forward, this will be just a minor issue left in the past as things balance out to their conclusion. Is the system beloved by all? I'm sure it's not. Does it work? well some like to say quite appropriately "don't fix what's not broken".
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 370	Posted - 2015.07.08 15:29:27 - [35] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: Webvan wrote: Chance Ravinne wrote: I don't like the system because as a min maxer it forces me to plan around pointless arbitrary figures that have no meaningful in game effect. As for character differentiation, that's what overpriced digital apparel is for, and the best part is other players can actually see it. Attributes better reflect real life. It's typical to say be a better artist than to be a better programmer. Or to be a better fictional writer than to be a better mathamatician. Otherwise there would be no such need for things like college placement tests etc. Also EVE reflects more traditional rpg style gaming such as you find in MUD's or table top gaming (e.g dnd), not mario kart or pac man. This is far better suited for the rpg type player. If you make a game try to be everything for everyone, you only make a game for no one. Yes except in most RPGs attributes actually have an in game effect on your character and other players. A high strength character hits harder or wears heavier armor. A high agility character can ride motorcycles instead of cars, or access pathways other people can't. Those attributes meaningfully and obviously differentiate characters by power and ability. In EVE, being in fleet with a high Perception FC does nothing for your game experience. Taking a contract from a high Charisma person has no effect. Downing boosters while you have high Willpower doesn't cut down hangovers. I'm not saying they should. But the attributes in Eve fail to provide the RP part of RPG that attributes serve in most other titles in the genre. Many a newbro have probably been disappointed to learn that no, having higher Memory doesn't let you train more skills at once or show a cloaked ship's last known position. They're just lame training stats. And you are in CSM? I am glad I did not vote for you. First you are talking about how atributes have meaning by differentiating characters skills, outside EVE. Then you are neglecting the attributes having impact on differentiating learning speed in EVE, that is the only option to differentiate our characters by learning skills fitting to an attributes, actual learning plan. You want to make this hilly differentiate ecosystem into a parking lot, plain as unimaginative like all parking lots out there. You should resign from CSM. ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)
Baaldor Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion. 358	Posted - 2015.07.08 17:12:41 - [36] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: Webvan wrote: Chance Ravinne wrote: I don't like the system because as a min maxer it forces me to plan around pointless arbitrary figures that have no meaningful in game effect. As for character differentiation, that's what overpriced digital apparel is for, and the best part is other players can actually see it. Attributes better reflect real life. It's typical to say be a better artist than to be a better programmer. Or to be a better fictional writer than to be a better mathamatician. Otherwise there would be no such need for things like college placement tests etc. Also EVE reflects more traditional rpg style gaming such as you find in MUD's or table top gaming (e.g dnd), not mario kart or pac man. This is far better suited for the rpg type player. If you make a game try to be everything for everyone, you only make a game for no one. Yes except in most RPGs attributes actually have an in game effect on your character and other players. A high strength character hits harder or wears heavier armor. A high agility character can ride motorcycles instead of cars, or access pathways other people can't. Those attributes meaningfully and obviously differentiate characters by power and ability. In EVE, being in fleet with a high Perception FC does nothing for your game experience. Taking a contract from a high Charisma person has no effect. Downing boosters while you have high Willpower doesn't cut down hangovers. I'm not saying they should. But the attributes in Eve fail to provide the RP part of RPG that attributes serve in most other titles in the genre. Many a newbro have probably been disappointed to learn that no, having higher Memory doesn't let you train more skills at once or show a cloaked ship's last known position. They're just lame training stats. ....and you are on the CSM. Welp, better dust off the Atari joystick and await the conersion to Astroids.
Lucy Lopez Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 60	Posted - 2015.07.08 17:22:59 - [37] - Quote Webvan wrote: I think this is what happens when 3 million people suddenly quit WoW and every game forum is filled with 'make this game easy naow'. Attributes aren't the problem. lol... whenever I see people talk about SP I still think 'spellpower' As far as I can tell the attribute system is there to punish you if you have the nerve to change your mind about your skill plan 6 months after you remapped.
Webvan All Kill No Skill 10774	Posted - 2015.07.08 17:46:10 - [38] - Quote Lucy Lopez wrote: Webvan wrote: I think this is what happens when 3 million people suddenly quit WoW and every game forum is filled with 'make this game easy naow'. Attributes aren't the problem. lol... whenever I see people talk about SP I still think 'spellpower' As far as I can tell the attribute system is there to punish you if you have the nerve to change your mind about your skill plan 6 months after you remapped. Yep, it has consequences. This is why I always suggest to newbies to just run with balanced attributes for a while. The first six months it doesn't matter if you lose a few days if that's what it comes to. Of course all new characters get a bonus remap, so helps quite a bit for early training. By the time you get past that, you should have a decent handle on the game to best manage your attributes. If that comes into question, best to just run balanced, nothing wrong with that. Webbies next remap will be fairly balanced most likely, which I have ready but not until my current skill que gets to that point, which between now and then saves me about a week.
Sarayu Wyvern Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.08 17:48:15 - [39] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: Commissar Rain wrote: Skills are bad for new players too. Along with ISK. Remove both. Also you don't spend money to do remaps. Actually the worst thing for new players is other players, really. I think it would just be best to remove everyone, in one progressive swoop. This is idea is not any worse than all the hilarious nonsense people have been spouting over the years in regards to "newbies catching up" and "this game should be made easier". I did not come to this thread expecting I would leave it laughing. Alt of MidnightWyvern. (Mobius Wyvern in Dust 514)
Chance Ravinne WiNGSPAN Delivery Services 289	Posted - 2015.07.08 18:13:37 - [40] - Quote BRB resigning from CSM because I have a subjective opinion on what constitutes fun. I'll let Xenuria know where my parking spot was. You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 111	Posted - 2015.07.08 18:46:41 - [41] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: Moac Tor wrote: Chance Ravinne wrote: Attributes aren't the Big Bad, but they're certainly an unintuitive and unfun system. The mourning process following their demise will be short. Speak for yourself, I find the decisions which the current system present the player quite interesting, and if your looking for a game in which things are intuitive then your in the wrong game. Removing attributes would fix literally nothing and at the same time remove an element of the game some players find interesting. If you don't like the system then just put on a balanced remap and you can train your skills however you like. I don't like the system because as a min maxer it forces me to plan around pointless arbitrary figures that have no meaningful in game effect. As for character differentiation, that's what overpriced digital apparel is for, and the best part is other players can actually see it. Ok, there are so many things wrong with this post, let me see if I can correct your thinking here. First, the figures are quite plainly not "pointless", if that were the case then people wouldn't be on here complaining that they have to put in some mental effort to maximise their character training speed. Also, I'm not sure if you are aware seeing as you are pretty new, but pretty much everything in eve boils down to "arbitrary" figures. Let us say you want to create a fitting for a new ship you just bought: first you have to deal with two arbitrary figures; the ships CPU and PG. This makes it difficult to min max your ship as you need a knowledge of a very large set of archaic and arbitrary numbers alongside a knowledge of how another set of archaic and arbitrary numbers are going to interact with each other when it hits the fan. Now following your line of thinking we should remove all these numbers and allow any module to fit on the respective slot (of course you'd have to restrict the modules to the hull class, and to reflect the power of the module you would need to allow some to require multiple slots). But this would reduce arbitrary numbers and would allow you to easily fulfil your desire to min max correct? Much like the skill system ship fitting takes a lot of knowledge (far more than the skill system) and mastery of all the types of modules available and their respective CPU and PG requirements to maximise that ships capabilities (and that is not to mention cap requirement, activation time, specific bonuses etc.). Now to some this is very boring and they'll just go to eve uni where they can get a decent fit served to them, but to others is an an interesting and complex puzzle. And lets not go into industry and trading, as I am sure that will bore you even more as you are just playing around with numbers as your bread and butter gameplay. So it its essence eve has always been a game where players are rewarded for being clever with arbitrary numbers. That being said if you want to enjoy the more action oriented side of the game you can do that, but just don't expect to fulfil your desire for min maxing when your not either clever enough or prepared to put in the effort to do so.
Ivant Sumboodi Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 24	Posted - 2015.07.08 18:58:02 - [42] - Quote By this CSM's guys vocal interjections here, can we derive that the CSM is actively supporting an Attribute-less, SP-less CCP future? And this is a real question.
Baaldor Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion. 360	Posted - 2015.07.08 19:00:17 - [43] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: BRB resigning from CSM because I have a subjective opinion on what constitutes fun. I'll let Xenuria know where my parking spot was. Actually, if you sat back a bit, ask a few questions, and keep your opinion to your self, you might pick up more than just angst.
Dersen Lowery Scanners Live in Vain 1694	Posted - 2015.07.08 19:08:17 - [44] - Quote Webvan wrote: Chance Ravinne wrote: Yes except in most RPGs attributes actually have an in game effect on your character and other players. A high strength character hits harder or wears heavier armor. A high agility character can ride motorcycles instead of cars, or access pathways other people can't. Those attributes meaningfully and obviously differentiate characters by power and ability. Attributes are much like that here, such as a means to an end, and in ways reflect real life. You take that out, you have just another mario kart. Replace it with what everyone else is doing, you simply dumb the game down to just another clone of something or another. The current system offers a challenge. It's not so simple that you can just click away and everything will just be dandy in the end. The system provides not only challenge, but consequences for our actions, or lack thereof. A mental challenge, a puzzle, even at times a paradox, that we must wrap our minds around and reason our way through. Combining them would offer a greater challenge. Yes, your FC character could min/max Per/Will, but they'd lose that sweet Cha bonus to Leadership. If you made that change and removed the pure learning implants that encourage people to be docked up studying, you'd have a nice tension that would encourage balanced characters and discourage min/max silliness. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. I voted in CSM X!
Jacques d'Orleans The Scope Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2015.07.08 19:27:13 - [45] - Quote GAJY wrote: For me personally I just see them and attribute implants as an extra thing to put new players off PVP. For people I know who play, they're just a nuisance and they wouldn't care if they were gone, just something you have to remap once in awhile and spend money on, yet it adds nothing to the experience. Oh you're so right! Lets remove them and when while we're removing them then lets remove Skiilpoints too. There so less fun, all my trendy Hipster friends say i'm so 1990's because i play a game which asks for skillpoint. And then we should remove ganking in High Sec, because that's also so much unfun, say my trendy Starbucks slurping Hipster Casual friends. But most of my Taliban bearded Hipster friends say, im totally Pro war, Anti vegan and a misogynist because i play EVE and not Splatoon. I'm so uncool, i cried the whole night into my pillow, my poor pillow! /cynism (And no, i'm sober)
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 111	Posted - 2015.07.08 19:31:28 - [46] - Quote Dersen Lowery wrote: If you made that change and removed the pure learning implants that encourage people to be docked up studying, you'd have a nice tension that would encourage balanced characters and discourage min/max silliness. I've always thought the pirate implants should confer a greater bonuses to learning to discourage people form making the choice between a learning clone or a combat clone. For instance if all of the pirate implants all offered a +5 learning bonus as standard alongside the combat bonuses, and then your basic learning clones would go from +1 to +5 as usual. For the intended effect of reducing the practice of having a 'learning clone' the standard learning implants could be reduced in price to 50% of what they are now with pirate clones being the new gold standard. This would also help newer players attain a higher SP/hour rate as they can more easily afford learning implants.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 10659	Posted - 2015.07.08 19:35:02 - [47] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: I'll let Xenuria know where my parking spot was. oh God. What have you done! =]\|[=
TigerXtrm Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance 1182	Posted - 2015.07.08 19:44:05 - [48] - Quote Attributes are a thing from olden times and arguably one of the mistakes that were made in the initial design document of EVE Online (along with space mines, warping to 15km off a gate and skillpoint loss on death). They made character creation a serious thing that people had to put thought into, at least that was the idea. After a few years of having people play the game, it was pretty obvious that wasn't happening and people complained in hordes about their awful stats. Yearly remaps were introduced to compensate but that only made attributes more horrible than they already were. Instead of a meaningful choice, they were now turned into a needlessly complicated mechanic that one is somewhat forced to dabble into for maximum return on skill training speed. Attributes themselves need to go as a mechanic. Should all skill training be at a flat rate... I don't know honestly. Part of me says yes, part of me says no. It is an interesting thing to micromanage, but there have to be ways to make it more accessible to the more casual players. The current way of needing a third party program to figure out the ideal attributes for a particular skill list is hard to work with and absolutely not player friendly. My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things! My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 111	Posted - 2015.07.08 19:51:18 - [49] - Quote TigerXtrm wrote: Should all skill training be at a flat rate... I don't know honestly. Part of me says yes, part of me says no. It is an interesting thing to micromanage. It is not just an interesting thing to micromanage, or a puzzle to solve, but it is one of the aspects of the game that players really care about and as a result it could provide some of the most meaningful choices in the game. I think it is a shame that SP loss has almost been removed from the game, although I agree the implementation of it they had with having to update your clone wasn't the best. There is an issue with how disproportionate any negative effect is on a new player compared to an older player, but there are plenty of solutions to that problem without ripping out the whole system.
Baaldor Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion. 360	Posted - 2015.07.08 19:53:19 - [50] - Quote TigerXtrm wrote: Attributes are a thing from olden times and arguably one of the mistakes that were made in the initial design document of EVE Online (along with space mines, warping to 15km off a gate and skillpoint loss on death). They made character creation a serious thing that people had to put thought into, at least that was the idea. After a few years of having people play the game, it was pretty obvious that wasn't happening and people complained in hordes about their awful stats. Yearly remaps were introduced to compensate but that only made attributes more horrible than they already were. Instead of a meaningful choice, they were now turned into a needlessly complicated mechanic that one is somewhat forced to dabble into for maximum return on skill training speed. Attributes themselves need to go as a mechanic. Should all skill training be at a flat rate... I don't know honestly. Part of me says yes, part of me says no. It is an interesting thing to micromanage, but there have to be ways to make it more accessible to the more casual players. The current way of needing a third party program to figure out the ideal attributes for a particular skill list is hard to work with and absolutely not player friendly. Olden times? it has not been that long. You make it seem like back then Buck Skin rubbers was in style.
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 26	Posted - 2015.07.08 20:07:03 - [51] - Quote Ivant Sumboodi wrote: By this CSM's guys vocal interjections here, can we derive that the CSM is actively supporting an Attribute-less, SP-less CCP future? I don't think we're that lucky. But I suppose we have to settle for killing one pointless system at a time. TigerXtrm wrote: Attributes themselves need to go as a mechanic. I would actually love to see attributes stay as a concept. Just not one tied to the ridiculous skill system. Ideally, every endeavor in the game would be tied in some way to each attribute. Perception would give bonuses to something, whether you were hauling, exploring, FC or trading. As would Willpower, Charisma, etc. I don't expect that to ever happen because it would be a tremendous amount of work for CCP to figure out appropriate benefits and balance levels. And as far as player support goes, I'm sure it would somehow be 'dumbing down EVE', or some such nonsense. PS: Moac Tor wrote: First, the figures are quite plainly not "pointless", if that were the case then people wouldn't be on here complaining that they have to put in some mental effort to maximise their character training speed. Wait, sorry - didn't mean "pointless". I meant "obnoxious clutter which fails to provide an illusion of choice in an archaic system of character progression". Baaldor wrote: Actually, if you sat back a bit, ask a few questions, and keep your opinion to your self, you might pick up more than just angst. I don't know about Chance, but my visits to the EVE forums might have me pick up a drinking problem.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 374	Posted - 2015.07.08 20:29:24 - [52] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: BRB resigning from CSM because I have a subjective opinion on what constitutes fun. I'll let Xenuria know where my parking spot was. Now you are defending yourself with "subjective point", while all that was seen is a lack of understanding the broader scope of the feature. EVE skill-attribute conection is not only differentiating characters , but also adds consequences so important because it is EVE, and here your actions have consequences, even if you add or remove one point of charisma or intelligence while you train skill that train faster with these attributes higher. ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)
Chance Ravinne WiNGSPAN Delivery Services 291	Posted - 2015.07.08 20:50:34 - [53] - Quote The rhetorical hoops people will jump through to defend a system that comprises SWITCHING FIVE NUMBERS ONCE PER YEAR is quite entertaining. We've seen it been said that if you cannot switch five numbers once per year, Eve will become Mario Kart or WoW. If you take away the annual number swap, the game will lose significant depth. If you can't adjust the value of five integers every 365 days, characters become cookie cutter copies of each other, regardless of skills trained, accomplishments made, or personal lore. Just close your eyes and imagine one year from now you somehow survived without editing five integer fields over the span of fifteen gameplay seconds. Try to remain calm during this process. You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Enya Sparhawk Black Tea and Talons 63	Posted - 2015.07.08 20:54:32 - [54] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: Yes except in most RPGs attributes actually have an in game effect on your character and other players. A high strength character hits harder or wears heavier armor. A high agility character can ride motorcycles instead of cars, or access pathways other people can't. Those attributes meaningfully and obviously differentiate characters by power and ability. In EVE, being in fleet with a high Perception FC does nothing for your game experience. Taking a contract from a high Charisma person has no effect. Downing boosters while you have high Willpower doesn't cut down hangovers. I'm not saying they should. But the attributes in Eve fail to provide the RP part of RPG that attributes serve in most other titles in the genre. Many a newbro have probably been disappointed to learn that no, having higher Memory doesn't let you train more skills at once or show a cloaked ship's last known position. They're just lame training stats. You are totally right. So instead of finding ways of removing them, CCP (I'm actually looking at the CSM's here) should be finding feasible ways to assign them positives for high stats and negatives for low in their associated skill groups... Even a 1% or 2% percent gain or loss in something definitely adds a certain something to a character (it's also not like you can't change that with a remap either; make those things useful for something too). It should be easy to do since the skill books have been removed and now each and every player is now left with just an easily determined base attribute to decide their course; from what I can see, most of the complications have already been removed. (even the attribute implants could then be used and limited in the respect that they would not apply a percentage in something, but merely to remove a loss due to low attributes.) If attributes become useful for something other than just training times, then they will allow the player to specialize our own characters in whatever role/we want to at the time... The main idea: recapture that old flavour from a time when creating a character back in the day (2005/6) allowed a person to choose their area of expertise and excel in it from the start (ie. choose race, then bloodline, then career path which would then give certain skills that correlated to your choices a bump from the start.) I thought this way of character creation made this game unique; especially for a new player who doesn't have the skills to do everything that they want to from the start anyways... Now you can give them a boost by allowing them to concentrate their efforts from the start (ie. assigning their attributes to key areas for a certain career path) down a single path What's the point of advertising the various career paths if your not going to give them that little something extra for making them feel connected to it... EVE Wiki wrote: Attributes and Skill Groups These are the main attributes associated with each category of your skill tree. Corporation Management: (Memory / Charisma) Drones: (Memory / Perception) Electronics: (Intelligence / Memory) Engineering: (Intelligence / Memory) Gunnery: (Perception / Willpower) Industry: (Memory / Intelligence) Leadership: (Charisma / Willpower) Mechanic: (Intelligence / Memory) Missile: (Perception / Willpower) Navigation: (Intelligence / Perception) Science: (Intelligence / Memory) Social: (Charisma / Intelligence) Spaceship Command: (Perception / Willpower) Subsystems: (Intelligence / Perception) Trade: (Charisma / Willpower) I'm sure a community of people can come up with a whole list of areas within the mechanics of the gameplay (ie. velocity, cpu, power, range for something, etc.) where they feel these would be best represented... Make the system complex, but not complicated... Even a character bazaar would adapt, since you could just remap... Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne Déan gáire...Tiocfaidh ár lá
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 374	Posted - 2015.07.08 20:56:47 - [55] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: The rhetorical hoops people will jump through to defend a system that comprises SWITCHING FIVE NUMBERS ONCE PER YEAR is quite entertaining. We've seen it been said that if you cannot switch five numbers once per year, Eve will become Mario Kart or WoW. If you take away the annual number swap, the game will lose significant depth. If you can't adjust the value of five integers every 365 days, characters become cookie cutter copies of each other, regardless of skills trained, accomplishments made, or personal lore. Just close your eyes and imagine one year from now you somehow survived without editing five integer fields over the span of fifteen gameplay seconds. Try to remain calm during this process. Even now you fail to acknowledge the impact attributes have on game, take into consideration implants too, and see how CCP fails to break the system because it is in fact good, all encompasing feature. Try to simple down the implants too, modules, or even ships. You can simple down everything, into an flat, uninteresting plain where everybody can jump at the same height. ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)
Baaldor Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion. 361	Posted - 2015.07.08 20:59:57 - [56] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Even now you fail to acknowledge the impact attributes have on game, take into consideration implants too, and see how CCP fails to breake the system because it is in fact good, all encompasing feature. Try to simple down the implants too, modules, or even ships. You can simpoe down everything, into an flat, uninteresting plain where everybody can jump at the same height. The game you are describing is called Pong.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 374	Posted - 2015.07.08 21:02:35 - [57] - Quote Baaldor wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Even now you fail to acknowledge the impact attributes have on game, take into consideration implants too, and see how CCP fails to breake the system because it is in fact good, all encompasing feature. Try to simple down the implants too, modules, or even ships. You can simpoe down everything, into an flat, uninteresting plain where everybody can jump at the same height. The game you are describing is called Pong. You can name it whatever you want, but I know its not a place where EVE should end. ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 111	Posted - 2015.07.08 21:09:27 - [58] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: The rhetorical hoops people will jump through to defend a system that comprises SWITCHING FIVE NUMBERS ONCE PER YEAR is quite entertaining. My friend, take a deep breath, then have a read over what people are actually saying to you before you reply again.
Webvan All Kill No Skill 10777	Posted - 2015.07.08 23:00:23 - [59] - Quote Baaldor wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Even now you fail to acknowledge the impact attributes have on game, take into consideration implants too, and see how CCP fails to breake the system because it is in fact good, all encompasing feature. Try to simple down the implants too, modules, or even ships. You can simpoe down everything, into an flat, uninteresting plain where everybody can jump at the same height. The game you are describing is called Pong. This thought has touched my mind at a number of spots in this thread. I may need a shrink now. Actually, probably screams SWG between CU and NGE. Most/all consequences were removed from the game and the skill tree system turned into basicaly a pre-defined class system. It died. dead - dead - dead.
Enya Sparhawk Black Tea and Talons 64	Posted - 2015.07.09 20:32:48 - [60] - Quote Not to continually drag out any points further than need be... this idea came to me just before heading to sleep last night, so I do wish to share it... I think it is important. This game, the entirety of the EVE universe, is a game built solely upon statistical data. It has been from the start; it is part of the reason why so many people have become so attached to it. They, like myself, are just naturally inclined to stats. It is basically the 'soul' of this game, defining everything we do or how we interact. So to fully remove that quality (at least without trying every option to better adapt it) from a character essential removes any means of better 'defining' a character within this universe; sort of like burning off a set of unique fingerprints. The players then become not apart of the game, but just in it... essentially, a detached shell with no soul; the game becomes a chore and not fun because of the detachment of sentiment. Standardising items, modules and ships within the game is one thing but to do so with the player characters... In my opinion, that would be the greatest tragedy to this game... To become something so contrary to CCP's original vision and design... Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne Déan gáire...Tiocfaidh ár lá
Baaldor Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion. 375	Posted - 2015.07.09 20:46:46 - [61] - Quote Enya Sparhawk wrote: Not to continually drag out any points further than need be... this idea came to me just before heading to sleep last night, so I do wish to share it... I think it is important. This game, the entirety of the EVE universe, is a game built solely upon statistical data. It has been from the start; it is part of the reason why so many people have become so attached to it. They, like myself, are just naturally inclined to stats. It is basically the 'soul' of this game, defining everything we do or how we interact. So to fully remove that quality (at least without trying every option to better adapt it) from a character essential removes any means of better 'defining' a character within this universe; sort of like burning off a set of unique fingerprints. The players then become not apart of the game, but just in it... essentially, a detached shell with no soul; the game becomes a chore and not fun because of the detachment of sentiment. Standardising items, modules and ships within the game is one thing but to do so with the player characters... In my opinion, that would be the greatest tragedy to this game... To become something so contrary to CCP's original vision and design... Huh, i am such the opposite of what you describe. 10 years or so grinding this ** out, and you know what i hate stats..stats are akin to driving a nail through the head of ones **. I figured out very early that the social aspect of the game is what made things happen. And that forging social bonds actually helped me survive and thrive. Not stats.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 380	Posted - 2015.07.09 20:55:47 - [62] - Quote Baaldor wrote: Enya Sparhawk wrote: Not to continually drag out any points further than need be... this idea came to me just before heading to sleep last night, so I do wish to share it... I think it is important. This game, the entirety of the EVE universe, is a game built solely upon statistical data. It has been from the start; it is part of the reason why so many people have become so attached to it. They, like myself, are just naturally inclined to stats. It is basically the 'soul' of this game, defining everything we do or how we interact. So to fully remove that quality (at least without trying every option to better adapt it) from a character essential removes any means of better 'defining' a character within this universe; sort of like burning off a set of unique fingerprints. The players then become not apart of the game, but just in it... essentially, a detached shell with no soul; the game becomes a chore and not fun because of the detachment of sentiment. Standardising items, modules and ships within the game is one thing but to do so with the player characters... In my opinion, that would be the greatest tragedy to this game... To become something so contrary to CCP's original vision and design... Huh, i am such the opposite of what you describe. 10 years or so grinding this ** out, and you know what i hate stats..stats are akin to driving a nail through the head of ones **. I figured out very early that the social aspect of the game is what made things happen. And that forging social bonds actually helped me survive and thrive. Not stats. So why do you even train them if they are so bad? ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)
Baaldor Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion. 375	Posted - 2015.07.09 21:07:07 - [63] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Baaldor wrote: Enya Sparhawk wrote: Not to continually drag out any points further than need be... this idea came to me just before heading to sleep last night, so I do wish to share it... I think it is important. This game, the entirety of the EVE universe, is a game built solely upon statistical data. It has been from the start; it is part of the reason why so many people have become so attached to it. They, like myself, are just naturally inclined to stats. It is basically the 'soul' of this game, defining everything we do or how we interact. So to fully remove that quality (at least without trying every option to better adapt it) from a character essential removes any means of better 'defining' a character within this universe; sort of like burning off a set of unique fingerprints. The players then become not apart of the game, but just in it... essentially, a detached shell with no soul; the game becomes a chore and not fun because of the detachment of sentiment. Standardising items, modules and ships within the game is one thing but to do so with the player characters... In my opinion, that would be the greatest tragedy to this game... To become something so contrary to CCP's original vision and design... Huh, i am such the opposite of what you describe. 10 years or so grinding this ** out, and you know what i hate stats..stats are akin to driving a nail through the head of ones . I figured out very early that the social aspect of the game is what made things happen. And that forging social bonds actually helped me survive and thrive. Not stats. So why do you even train them if they are so bad? I just pushed button, look at when it is to be finished shrug shoulders and then play the game** with in the limits of my skills. Now it is pretty moot. now I just push button on the longest skill of somesort so I can ignore it or stack up my skill que for a over a year, and when one finsihes it is momentary "oh cool" and then do whatever it was i was doing.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 380	Posted - 2015.07.09 22:01:03 - [64] - Quote So you have to play the game in constraints, as everything is harder on beginning, and you have to acnowledge that and can do nothing about it, still you have to comply. How is that near to a real life? How is that real? ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 3050	Posted - 2015.07.09 22:11:01 - [65] - Quote Hengle Teron wrote: They are there, so we can either choose to train anything at same speed, or limit ourselves only to specific skill groups, but train those faster. I insist you stop being logical at once! Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Webvan All Kill No Skill 10816	Posted - 2015.07.09 23:35:21 - [66] - Quote Well what it really comes down to is some people don't like the idea of having the choice to just balance out their attributes on their own, and/or that others choose not to, but rather to have mommy CCP remove it and by default balance out everyone's attributes by such a removal. So then all training time becomes balanced, which they could already do by just balancing their attributes right now. It also puts CCP in a no win situation, since now they will complain that training is too slow and want it all accelerated as if they had max attributes in everything. CCP is in a far better position by just letting us decide for ourselves, lest it become the slippery slope.
Ramshack Z Ministry of War Amarr Empire 23	Posted - 2015.07.10 00:04:51 - [67] - Quote I don't see the big fuss. Remaps add depth and planning, yes. It rewards me for spending half an hour working out how to train my alts before I throw in the implants, remap, and let them gestate for a couple months. Can't say that I'd really be bothered if I lost that 30 mins of content.
Ultim8Evil Ministry Of Eternal Disorder 162	Posted - 2015.07.10 00:31:20 - [68] - Quote If you set them all to roughly equal and just go about your business, it's as if they aren't there.
Webvan All Kill No Skill 10816	Posted - 2015.07.10 00:36:48 - [69] - Quote Now if this were to be an intended discussion about improving it rather than removing it, I'd say.. Add a couple points on max cap per attribute. Add in some extra points to spend into attributes. The catch is, as you start to reach max cap on an attribute, it costs more points. In this way, you can put in a couple more attribute points into a single attribute, but also you can choose to simply balance all your stats so that you wind up with a little better training speed across the board. This simply does not remove consequences, but gives a greater flexibility in decision making. I'm not saying that it's what I want, but simply a possible change that is logical to the system while still retaining the consequences.
Commander Spurty Dimension Door We need wards. 1503	Posted - 2015.07.10 03:42:14 - [70] - Quote When I first learned about clones, I automatically thought "oh I'll have different clones configured for different training". Well, it made sense to me that a different clone could contain different strengths and weaknesses. Heh attributes are very important early game. After 100mill skill points, sort of not so much of a rush to do much. You saying you want to water down the experience? There are good ships And wood ships And ships that sail the sea But the best ships are Spaceships Built by CCP
Mr Mieyli Hedion University Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2015.07.10 05:46:43 - [71] - Quote I've always viewed attributes as a way for people to put in more effort to maximise their skill training and not as a "you need to do this to be competitive". My main has had a (fairly) balanced remap for most of his career and I don't feel like I've lost out as a result. I also think that allowing you to train certain groups of skills faster at the expense of others is balanced and is a meaningful choice (something CCP are apparently striving for). Removing attributes and doing nothing else does just remove a layer of depth from the game, and for what gain? EvE is not, and barring massive changes never will be be, an intuitive game for a new player. It is a game about planning and just like most everything else in the game if you put more time and thought into your attributes / skill plan you can get more of a reward back from it. I would not be against reworking attributes to make them more relevant but flat out removing the depth they currently provide is bad in my opinion.
Omar Alharazaad Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 2139	Posted - 2015.07.10 10:28:04 - [72] - Quote I have an idea, one that should make everyone equally unhappy. Parity is important, right? Remove all attributes. Double all training times. For learning implants reduce training time by 4% per tier of implant plugged in (ie, your trusty old +5 implant now gives you 20% off training times) with a full set you're back down to a mere 100% base training time! For extra flavor add in an omega implant that increases the bonus of the others to the point where a full set might get you almost down to where you would be now, but not quite. Problem solved. nobody is at a disadvantage. everyone equally annoyed. Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Dominique Vasilkovsky BFG Tech 289	Posted - 2015.07.10 10:42:50 - [73] - Quote Mr Mieyli wrote: Removing attributes and doing nothing else does just remove a layer of depth from the game, and for what gain? EvE is not, and barring massive changes never will be be, an intuitive game for a new player. It is a game about planning and just like most everything else in the game if you put more time and thought into your attributes / skill plan you can get more of a reward back from it. I would not be against reworking attributes to make them more relevant but flat out removing the depth they currently provide is bad in my opinion. Actually, CCP already ruined the depth when they introduced the neural remaps. Now they may as well just finish the job and get rid of the attributes once and for all, their purpose is lost already. Dominique Vasilkovsky EVEboard Once known as: Mashie Saldana sold - Anastasia Rigel sold - Monica Foulkes sold
Knights Armament State Protectorate Caldari State 250	Posted - 2015.07.10 12:15:10 - [74] - Quote GAJY wrote: For me personally I just see them and attribute implants as an extra thing to put new players off PVP. For people I know who play, they're just a nuisance and they wouldn't care if they were gone, just something you have to remap once in awhile and spend money on, yet it adds nothing to the experience. They make it hurt more to lose in pvp which discourages pvp, but it also makes psychopaths happy knowing you can't replace them. The great attracting factor of EvE is that it provides sadistic gratification. On one hand you'll have more PvP, but on the otherhand it won't be as meaningful because ships are easily replaced. https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=29554516-05f9-4eca-a942-32e1701a6569&action=buddy
GAJY The Monkey Island Cannibals 4	Posted - 2015.07.11 12:46:24 - [75] - Quote I'm all for complexity and death penalties, but I just don't think attributes add anything. Ship implants make perfect sense, they have a function, but I just don't see why the implants are there to make people train faster. I'd much rather have other things help you train faster, maybe actually doing the thing you want to train? For example using the Hybrid turrets giving you a slight boost while you're training them. Maybe get rid of the stupid training system, something that is becoming so trivial for older players. What about using a SWG Pre CU system where you have a skill cap and you have to switch around wen you want to do something else. Then combine that with training what you're doing like I said above and put in that Valkyrie combat system so tie it altogether. Something needs to change for EVE to stay relevant, it cannot stay the same in fear of pissing people off. If something doesn't work then roll back, don't do what SOE does and ignore the players, but you need to keep pushing forward and making changes.
Algarion Getz Aideron Corp 41	Posted - 2015.07.11 17:07:47 - [76] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: Moac Tor wrote: Chance Ravinne wrote: Attributes aren't the Big Bad, but they're certainly an unintuitive and unfun system. The mourning process following their demise will be short. Speak for yourself, I find the decisions which the current system present the player quite interesting, and if your looking for a game in which things are intuitive then your in the wrong game. Removing attributes would fix literally nothing and at the same time remove an element of the game some players find interesting. If you don't like the system then just put on a balanced remap and you can train your skills however you like. I don't like the system because as a min maxer it forces me to plan around pointless arbitrary figures that have no meaningful in game effect. As for character differentiation, that's what overpriced digital apparel is for, and the best part is other players can actually see it. 99% of the time we interact with spaceships in EVE. Cosmetic stuff is useless, unless CCP makes WIS (walking in stations). And even then, i wouldnt consider it as meaningful, because it has no effect on the actual game. I say expand the attribute system, FOR EXAMPLE give players with high intelligence a bonus to hacking. Make remaps a tradeable item which costs only a few mill. (This is just an idea, there are probably better ways to expand the attribute system.)
Noobshot Elongur Blitzkrieg. 8	Posted - 2015.07.11 20:14:39 - [77] - Quote I read all these post and listen to the complaints..... For some strange reason the only thing that is registering to me is the bitter vet tears that are going non-collected. All it took me was a google search, watching a 5 minute video on youtube, and 20 minutes to plan out my neural remap and training queue to max out the amount of SP per hour (2700 is the max you can get by the way.) Less yappin', more flying/shooting/pirating/what ever..... Back to the game. Some of you are sounding off like World of Warcraft players.
Harrison Tato Yamato Holdings 422	Posted - 2015.07.11 20:17:44 - [78] - Quote Baaldor wrote: ~~I figured out very early that the social aspect of the game is what made things happen. And that forging social bonds actually helped me survive and thrive.~~ Not stats. Blob = win.
Mr Mieyli Hedion University Amarr Empire 16	Posted - 2015.07.11 20:49:08 - [79] - Quote Harrison Tato wrote: Baaldor wrote: ~~I figured out very early that the social aspect of the game is what made things happen. And that forging social bonds actually helped me survive and thrive.~~ Not stats. Blob = win. It's almost like eve is a team game or something.
Baaldor Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion. 381	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:18:26 - [80] - Quote Harrison Tato wrote: Baaldor wrote: ~~I figured out very early that the social aspect of the game is what made things happen. And that forging social bonds actually helped me survive and thrive.~~ Not stats. Blob = win. Nice how you widdle it down to fit your myopic viewpoint.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.07.15 03:59:22 - [81] - Quote GAJY wrote: For me personally I just see them and attribute implants as an extra thing to put new players off PVP. For people I know who play, they're just a nuisance and they wouldn't care if they were gone, just something you have to remap once in awhile and spend money on, yet it adds nothing to the experience. Well the game is around 12 years old, what made sense then doesn't necessarily make sense now. Attribute implants are kind of pointless although I believe they have been looking at ways to remove them. I would think a lot of players wouldn't care too much if they were removed except for those that sell them. Of course there will be those that won't like the change as some people just don't like change.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 3071	Posted - 2015.07.15 04:22:55 - [82] - Quote GAJY wrote: For me personally I just see them and attribute implants as an extra thing to put new players off PVP. For people I know who play, they're just a nuisance and they wouldn't care if they were gone, just something you have to remap once in awhile and spend money on, yet it adds nothing to the experience. Malcanis strikes again!!! Not that I'd expect the OP to click the link or even get the argument. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Wendrika Hydreiga 431	Posted - 2015.07.15 10:20:23 - [83] - Quote Why are some of you guys giving Chance so much flack? So he can't have a stance over the existance of attributes, is that it? Attributes are dumb. An artifact of the old learning skills that should have been retired along with them. Training skills at different speeds, and the logistics behind remaps can make or break a character over a long period of time. Learning implants work as a deterrent for conflict, and having to choose between training faster, risking important implants with zero impact on combat, or juggle with jump clones for a compromise between the later two is really bad. We could have a flexible SP system like in Dust 514, but we can't without an entourage of torches and pitchforks chanting over their skill plans or how "casual" active skill gain is. Plus, we can't have active skill gain anyways, not while Attributes reign over our passive skill gain. If instead of of learning implants we had learning boosters that gave us a temporary flat multiplier of our skill gain, things would be much simpler than having five flavours of implants in our heads, with only two giving us beneficts at a time. Moan all you want over keeping EVE "pure" and filled with "deep choices". Like Clone Updates and Skill Point losses, Attributes have their days numbered, and their destiny is sealed once Brain In The Box becomes a thing. Deal with it.
Hicksimus Oblivion Incarnate Sock Puppet Federation 662	Posted - 2015.07.15 12:44:40 - [84] - Quote I actually like attribute points because they reward players that can be bothered to educate themselves without ruining the game for the "casual" crowd. Mechanics that function like that are welcome in my EvE. Recruitment Officer: What type of a pilot are you? Me: I've been described as a Ray Charles with Parkinsons and a drinking problem.
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 42	Posted - 2015.07.15 14:38:11 - [85] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Malcanis strikes again!!! Not that I'd expect the OP to click the link or even get the argument. Removing barriers to entry for new players is a good thing, specifically when such changes are to the basic game mechanics instead of targeted condition changes to a particular subgroup? I think you might have used the wrong emote there.

Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.