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Qin Shi Huang
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2011.12.07 21:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm sure there are many other threads discussing the NAGA, but I don't give a hoot. I just re-subscribed to fly a Torp NAGA and now the NAGA is a Hybrid gunboat - WTF!
I don't care about the theoretical role as a "sniping platform" - I have never been in a sniper fleet and I struggle to see how a long-range ****-poor DPS fleet will do as a tactical concept. I guess we need Pandemic Legion to get their heads out of thier collective assess and figure this out.
Crucible is a great release - it's a way in the right direction. Making the NAGA a gunboat is a result of 60+M SP Chars cracking the numbers on how they can use it. Not how it was intended - the NAGA was intended to be a poor mans choice (SP & ISK) to fight the Super-Cap spam.
My NAGA needs Torpedoes and my Hawk needs the 4th bonus. |
Majora Veneris
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Looks like CCP trolled you. A Good Forum Post Is Like A Skirt.... Long Enough To Cover The Subject Matter, But Short Enough To Keep Things Interesting.
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Jack bubu
GK inc. Pandemic Legion
97
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
wait what i get to claim for the changes to the naga?
awesome :D |
ACE McFACE
Acetech Systems
124
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Im not even going to reply with a suitable answer because its been said so many times in the other threads 'you dont give a hoot' about. Real men wear goggles and a Navy shirt! |
Hana Lena
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Patch Notes FTW? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
480
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
Qin Shi Huang wrote:I'm sure there are many other threads discussing the NAGA, but I don't give a hoot. I just re-subscribed to fly a Torp NAGA and now the NAGA is a Hybrid gunboat - WTF!
I don't care about the theoretical role as a "sniping platform" - I have never been in a sniper fleet and I struggle to see how a long-range ****-poor DPS fleet will do as a tactical concept. I guess we need Pandemic Legion to get their heads out of thier collective assess and figure this out.
Crucible is a great release - it's a way in the right direction. Making the NAGA a gunboat is a result of 60+M SP Chars cracking the numbers on how they can use it. Not how it was intended - the NAGA was intended to be a poor mans choice (SP & ISK) to fight the Super-Cap spam.
My NAGA needs Torpedoes and my Hawk needs the 4th bonus.
1: You re-subscribed to fly a ship that doesn't exist? 2: The Naga does very nice damage, at whatever range you choose to set up for. 3: Yes, Crucible is a great release. 4: You don't need 60+Mil SP to fly a Naga to it's full potential. 5: The primary role of the Naga is to be the fast moving muscle in a roaming gang, it's secondary role is an anti Super-Cap platform. It can perform both roles well as it is. 6: Caldari do not need another missle ship. Revenge should not stop at the ship!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Handsome Hussein
185
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Qin Shi Huang wrote:I just re-subscribed to fly a Torp NAGA Ouch, should have done your research! BEFORE CRUCIBLE EVE WAS ON CRUISE CONTROL. After Crucible EVE didn't need cruise control. |
Qin Shi Huang
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
ACE McFACE wrote:Im not even going to reply with a suitable answer because its been said so many times in the other threads 'you dont give a hoot' about.
I just re-subscribed because I read in EURO gamer that the NAGA was Torpedo armed. Why would I follow the release notes of a game that I basically left after Incarnage? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
480
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
Qin Shi Huang wrote:ACE McFACE wrote:Im not even going to reply with a suitable answer because its been said so many times in the other threads 'you dont give a hoot' about. I just re-subscribed because I read in EURO gamer that the NAGA was Torpedo armed. Why would I follow the release notes of a game that I basically left after Incarnage?
To, I don't know, make an informed decision?
That's two bad decisions in one post, ...nice. Revenge should not stop at the ship!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Paragon Renegade
Solar Arbiters
137
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
Naga pleeze The pie is a tautology |
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Ammzi
Imperial Guardians Blazing Angels Alliance
169
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Qin Shi Huang wrote:ACE McFACE wrote:Im not even going to reply with a suitable answer because its been said so many times in the other threads 'you dont give a hoot' about. I just re-subscribed because I read in EURO gamer that the NAGA was Torpedo armed. Why would I follow the release notes of a game that I basically left after Incarnage?
Whahahahhahahahhaha ... well that's what you get for trusting EURO gamer. *rolls eyes* quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
|
Komen
Capital Enrichment Services
42
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
Qin Shi Huang wrote:ACE McFACE wrote:Im not even going to reply with a suitable answer because its been said so many times in the other threads 'you dont give a hoot' about. I just re-subscribed because I read in EURO gamer that the NAGA was Torpedo armed. Why would I follow the release notes of a game that I basically left after Incarnage?
Highlighted your mistake. Getting information from a second party source, that doesn't focus on Eve. it's been known for weeks before the update went live that the Naga would be a hybrid boat. Also, lol, resubscribing for ONE SHIP? :eve players: |
ACE McFACE
Acetech Systems
124
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
Qin Shi Huang wrote:ACE McFACE wrote:Im not even going to reply with a suitable answer because its been said so many times in the other threads 'you dont give a hoot' about. I just re-subscribed because I read in EURO gamer that the NAGA was Torpedo armed. Why would I follow the release notes of a game that I basically left after Incarnage? ...
So your not going to read the patch notes for CCPs own game? I would assume they know whats going into thier game.
And if you dont read patch notes because of Incarna then your a fool, its not like the incarna patch notes said: WALKING IN STATIONS, ITERACT WITH YOUR FELLOW CAPSULEERS IN PLAYER OWNED ESTABLISHMENTS. Real men wear goggles and a Navy shirt! |
Qin Shi Huang
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
Not a single reply tried to even remotely justify the hyprid NAGA. A few posts even attacked my source of information. Too funny. |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
232
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Qin Shi Huang wrote:Not a single reply tried to even remotely justify the hyprid NAGA. A few posts even attacked my source of information. Too funny.
I watched quite a few youtube vids of the Naga literally raping battleships with Torps. It was completely overpowered. While I was looking forward to using it for Torps I can see the justification for removing them. I would have, however, given it the option to at least use all the other missiles below Torps.
That being said...I was around when sniper fleets were popular and useful. With the changes to rails specifically and with the Naga I can see sniper fleets being useful again. I miss the days of sitting at 200km with rails and doling out damage. Granted it was never a LOT of damage but it was enough when you were the backup to the main close range fleet. Support our boobies!-áLINKY! |
KrakizBad
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
101
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:Qin Shi Huang wrote:Not a single reply tried to even remotely justify the hyprid NAGA. A few posts even attacked my source of information. Too funny. I watched quite a few youtube vids of the Naga literally raping battleships with Torps. It was completely overpowered. While I was looking forward to using it for Torps I can see the justification for removing them. I would have, however, given it the option to at least use all the other missiles below Torps. That being said...I was around when sniper fleets were popular and useful. With the changes to rails specifically and with the Naga I can see sniper fleets being useful again. I miss the days of sitting at 200km with rails and doling out damage. Granted it was never a LOT of damage but it was enough when you were the backup to the main close range fleet.
Sniper fleets more than 150km from a target will never again be used except by idiots who don't know what a scan probe is. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/39006524/DumbHiseccers.jpg |
Hana Lena
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
Okay let's try this then.
Dev one: we haven't made any missile ships In a while that's the Caldari thing right? Let's make the new battlecruiser a missile ship.
Dev two: Hey yeah that's a great idea.
Member of Team Gridlock: What dream world Did you two just slip into? you want to make a new ship for large fleet fights use missiles? One the most server intense weapons systems we have?
Dev one: Oh Well then... Another hybrid platform it is.
Dev two: That was a really stupid idea man. |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
234
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
OP - before you go again - your stuff.... |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
481
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:44:00 -
[19] - Quote
KrakizBad wrote:Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:Qin Shi Huang wrote:Not a single reply tried to even remotely justify the hyprid NAGA. A few posts even attacked my source of information. Too funny. I watched quite a few youtube vids of the Naga literally raping battleships with Torps. It was completely overpowered. While I was looking forward to using it for Torps I can see the justification for removing them. I would have, however, given it the option to at least use all the other missiles below Torps. That being said...I was around when sniper fleets were popular and useful. With the changes to rails specifically and with the Naga I can see sniper fleets being useful again. I miss the days of sitting at 200km with rails and doling out damage. Granted it was never a LOT of damage but it was enough when you were the backup to the main close range fleet. Sniper fleets more than 150km from a target will never again be used except by idiots who don't know what a scan probe is.
While this is true don't forget that at more moderate ranges large rails can use their higher damage shorter range ammo while all other ships are still needing to use their long range ammo... and still retain the ability to switch back and hit at extreme range when necessary. Revenge should not stop at the ship!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Qin Shi Huang
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:45:00 -
[20] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:Qin Shi Huang wrote:Not a single reply tried to even remotely justify the hyprid NAGA. A few posts even attacked my source of information. Too funny. I watched quite a few youtube vids of the Naga literally raping battleships with Torps. It was completely overpowered. While I was looking forward to using it for Torps I can see the justification for removing them. I would have, however, given it the option to at least use all the other missiles below Torps. That being said...I was around when sniper fleets were popular and useful. With the changes to rails specifically and with the Naga I can see sniper fleets being useful again. I miss the days of sitting at 200km with rails and doling out damage. Granted it was never a LOT of damage but it was enough when you were the backup to the main close range fleet.
Thank you. There is of course a way to balance a Torp NAGA - we/they just havn't figured it out yet.
I was not around when sniper fleets were popular and since i'm Caldari I have realized that the Caldari has not learned from history. My Cerberus is rusting away and my Scorpion is fitted with dual 1600mm RT so I can play a role in RR/BS fleets. Working as instended?
|
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
334
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 23:04:00 -
[21] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:I watched quite a few youtube vids of the Naga literally raping battleships with Torps. It was completely overpowered.
Links? Were the battleships shooting back? Were those battleships effective against other cruiser-sized targets, or were they fitted for fighting battleship-and-larger targets?
I had the pleasure of flying a Torp Naga in Singularity and tried it out against L4 missions. It tanks like a cruiser. Anyone who knows the difference between tanking a cruiser and tanking a battleship will understand that the Naga is fragile. Claiming that it is overpowered simply because it punches above its weight is foolish.
The Torp Naga was a pleasure to fly, especially because it was built from paper.
|
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
233
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 23:27:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:I watched quite a few youtube vids of the Naga literally raping battleships with Torps. It was completely overpowered. Links? Were the battleships shooting back? Were those battleships effective against other cruiser-sized targets, or were they fitted for fighting battleship-and-larger targets? I had the pleasure of flying a Torp Naga in Singularity and tried it out against L4 missions. It tanks like a cruiser. Anyone who knows the difference between tanking a cruiser and tanking a battleship will understand that the Naga is fragile. Claiming that it is overpowered simply because it punches above its weight is foolish. The Torp Naga was a pleasure to fly, especially because it was built from paper.
******* forum keeps eating my posts!
Short version of my deceased post.
Can't find the vids...you do the digging through YouTube if you want to see them and yes they were being fired at but they were fast and at close range to where the BS's couldn't hit them. Support our boobies!-áLINKY! |
Jack Traynor
One More Corp
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 23:29:00 -
[23] - Quote
0/10
Only read a few lines of the OP's post, glad I didn't waste any of my life on the replies. :) |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
334
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 23:31:00 -
[24] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:Can't find the vids...you do the digging through YouTube if you want to see them and yes they were being fired at but they were fast and at close range to where the BS's couldn't hit them.
And the problem there is what? They're using the same weapons systems, they have similar bonuses. Perhaps the battleships need webs to hold smaller targets in place?
Stealth bombers have been using torpedoes for a long time.
I play paper. Rock is fine. Nerf scissors!
|
Roh Voleto
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
58
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 23:47:00 -
[25] - Quote
The thing you are looking for, the low barrier to entry torpedo platform, is called "Stealth Bomber". It has been in the game for quite a while. |
Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 01:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
I was really having a good time in 100mn HML Nagas.
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Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 04:12:00 -
[27] - Quote
I know. How dare they make you train for both of your race's weapons systems before being able to properly utilize all of their ships.
It's not not like Gallente have to train hybrids and Drones.
Oh wait. |
Igualmentedos
Shadow Veil Industrial Shadow Directive
67
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 05:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Qin Shi Huang wrote:I'm sure there are many other threads discussing the NAGA, but I don't give a hoot. I just re-subscribed to fly a Torp NAGA and now the NAGA is a Hybrid gunboat - WTF!
I don't care about the theoretical role as a "sniping platform" - I have never been in a sniper fleet and I struggle to see how a long-range ****-poor DPS fleet will do as a tactical concept. I guess we need Pandemic Legion to get their heads out of thier collective assess and figure this out.
Crucible is a great release - it's a way in the right direction. Making the NAGA a gunboat is a result of 60+M SP Chars cracking the numbers on how they can use it. Not how it was intended - the NAGA was intended to be a poor mans choice (SP & ISK) to fight the Super-Cap spam.
My NAGA needs Torpedoes and my Hawk needs the 4th bonus. 6: Caldari do not need another missle ship.
It's not about needing a missile boat, it's about wanting a missile boat. Why not give the Naga the flexibility to field either weapon system? Is there a reason for it?
I chose Caldari because I like missiles, especially torpedoes! The thought of 8 torp launchers raining death on my enemies for 50m makes me wet in the panties.
Also, Caldari players (most anyways) know that the Naga is a good boat, but we picked Caldari because we think missiles are the ****, and CCP decided to give us all blue balls when they yanked our awesome torp boat from us.
I am happy with the Naga, and unless there is a good reason to exclude torps, I kindly request that CCP make an awesome boat more flexible for those Caldari that don't have gunnery trained. |
Igualmentedos
Shadow Veil Industrial Shadow Directive
67
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 05:58:00 -
[29] - Quote
Xindi Kraid wrote:I know. How dare they make you train for both of your race's weapons systems before being able to properly utilize all of their ships.
It's not not like Gallente have to train hybrids and Drones.
Oh wait.
I see this a lot, and I have yet to see any definitive stance on this from CCP, but what weapon system is primary for Caldari? Honestly, I always thought it was missiles, and here everyone's saying hybrids are? Please back this up, because hybrids are almost always an afterthought when Caldari is involved. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
43
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 06:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
From dev post they explained missles have rigs that mean they can shoot smaller targets easier, and like OP said they are for fighting supers and such. CCP couldnt find a good way to make them work, always did well against smaller targets they werent designed for. |
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Igualmentedos
Shadow Veil Industrial Shadow Directive
67
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 06:13:00 -
[31] - Quote
rodyas wrote:From dev post they explained missles have rigs that mean they can shoot smaller targets easier, and like OP said they are for fighting supers and such. CCP couldnt find a good way to make them work, always did well against smaller targets they werent designed for.
Torps are terrible against smaller targets unless the ship is webbing and TP'ing. I just don't see a naga getting close enough to web a smaller ship. |
Vachir Khan
TriSeq Defence Group
85
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 06:13:00 -
[32] - Quote
This is just another "I fly Caldari and I trained only missiles because fck you, and now I'm bawling", isn't it? Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
If MMORPG players were around when God said, "Let there be light" they'd have called the light gay and plunged the universe back into darkness by squatting their nutsacks over it. |
Whitebeard Newgate
Team Nu-7
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 06:20:00 -
[33] - Quote
Torp Naga role can be done in Stealth Bomber...... |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
2
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Posted - 2011.12.08 08:17:00 -
[34] - Quote
Igualmentedos wrote:Xindi Kraid wrote:I know. How dare they make you train for both of your race's weapons systems before being able to properly utilize all of their ships.
It's not not like Gallente have to train hybrids and Drones.
Oh wait. I see this a lot, and I have yet to see any definitive stance on this from CCP, but what weapon system is primary for Caldari? Honestly, I always thought it was missiles, and here everyone's saying hybrids are? Please back this up, because hybrids are almost always an afterthought when Caldari is involved. Missiles are more prevalent in the lineup and Caldari lack a true gun frigate (The Merlin has a split weapons system), but I would say missiles and railguns are both primary weapons systems and you can fit blasters (you can fit both types of hybrids, but the bonuses are designed to boost the strenghts of just the one type).
Galente are similar. They have a strong lineup for both blaster ships and drone ships, but can fit rails.
It's not like Amarr where you have two kinds of lasers and a couple ships more biased towards drones, or the Minmatar that are mainly artillery and autocannon platforms with room for missiles, with both races have some specialty T2 ships. In those cases I would call missiles or drones secondary weapons systems. |
Cailais
Rekall Incorporated The Forsaken.
155
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 09:23:00 -
[35] - Quote
It not your NAGA its mine. And I like it with turrets.
C.
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Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
106
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 09:27:00 -
[36] - Quote
Go Away.
Torp naga is a terrible idea, and Rail Nagas completely rock.
Cripes, just look at what we do with them: http://shadowcartel.com/kb/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24930
if those were torp nagas, they'd all be dead nagas.
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Nathan Jameson
Talocan Dominion Talocan United
107
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 09:37:00 -
[37] - Quote
Confirming that railgun boats needed some lovin'.
I'm a torp player myself, and love me some hot Raven and Manticore action. Sometimes at the same time, cause I'm kinky like that. But I would have been disappointed if CCP had just rolled out another missile boat, cause this game seriously needs to be about diversity. Hence all the recent changes to SCs, Destroyers, Hybrid guns, etc...
@ Helicity: GOOD LORD MAN |
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
106
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 09:48:00 -
[38] - Quote
Nathan Jameson wrote:Confirming that railgun boats needed some lovin'.
I'm a torp player myself, and love me some hot Raven and Manticore action. Sometimes at the same time, cause I'm kinky like that. But I would have been disappointed if CCP had just rolled out another missile boat, cause this game seriously needs to be about diversity. Hence all the recent changes to SCs, Destroyers, Hybrid guns, etc...
@ Helicity: GOOD LORD MAN
look at my blog, we did something similar earlier this week as well :) |
Alexandros Balfros
Liberty Rogues
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 09:54:00 -
[39] - Quote
Qin Shi Huang wrote:Not a single reply tried to even remotely justify the hyprid NAGA. A few posts even attacked my source of information. Too funny.
Don't need to justify it, its CCP's toys and they can do with them as they see fit, more fool you for not reading patch notes :) |
baltec1
230
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 10:04:00 -
[40] - Quote
That is a disgustingly good fight you had there. |
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Super Chair
Hell's Revenge Flatline.
63
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 10:16:00 -
[41] - Quote
Qin Shi Huang wrote:I'm sure there are many other threads discussing the NAGA, but I don't give a hoot. I just re-subscribed to fly a Torp NAGA and now the NAGA is a Hybrid gunboat - WTF!
I don't care about the theoretical role as a "sniping platform" - I have never been in a sniper fleet and I struggle to see how a long-range ****-poor DPS fleet will do as a tactical concept. I guess we need Pandemic Legion to get their heads out of thier collective assess and figure this out.
Crucible is a great release - it's a way in the right direction. Making the NAGA a gunboat is a result of 60+M SP Chars cracking the numbers on how they can use it. Not how it was intended - the NAGA was intended to be a poor mans choice (SP & ISK) to fight the Super-Cap spam.
My NAGA needs Torpedoes and my Hawk needs the 4th bonus.
You need your posting roles removed. You also need to get out of my caldari ships because you're clearly not sophisticated enough to appreciate the joy of having both worlds in a single race with regards to gunnery and misilles. It's just disgusting that you would even consider yourself a caldari pilot limiting yourself to only half of their ships. |
Qin Shi Huang
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 10:40:00 -
[42] - Quote
Give it a rest with the fracking patch notes :) of course I read them .. after re-subbing.
I guess i'll just sit in station and spin one of the other very popular Caldari gunboats while training hybrids and dreaming about a cost-efficient Caldari PVP missile boat. The spin counter is excellent! My life now has meaning. Specializing in weapons is for wussies - i'll train lazors next. |
ivar R'dhak
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 11:32:00 -
[43] - Quote
Throwing a like your way. For what looked like a mediocre troll-fart this thread was actually semi amusing. |
Xtover
Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities
23
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Posted - 2011.12.08 11:43:00 -
[44] - Quote
Vachir Khan wrote:This is just another "I fly Caldari and I trained only missiles because fck you, and now I'm bawling", isn't it? Yep, it is |
Farrisen
MoaR ChickeN
50
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 12:55:00 -
[45] - Quote
Paragon Renegade wrote:Naga pleeze
And a new meme is born? http://i.imgur.com/DWBuV.png
Originally by: CCP Spitfire: It's because of falcon. |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
81
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 12:57:00 -
[46] - Quote
Yes, YES, let's beat whoever was in charge of that with a candlestick, how dare they tweak a ship that was not released yet! Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse! Let's find out, who made that change again, was it CCP Tallest? No, no... Little Tim, the toymaker's son? The ghost of King Lysandus? Or was it... Yes! Stanley, that talking grapefruit from Passwall!
Grab the pitchforks, the torches! How dare they make us train for guns that shoot drones that shoot missiles, no hold it... it was Hybrids, or whatever, doesn't matter! The arrogance! Tie them to a chair and force them to watch a whole Twillight-¬ season non-stop for hours! Sickle the cycly slight with a sickly popsicle! ...Oh no, wait! ! Let's just use... THE-¬ WABBAJACK-¬!
More seriously, we knew from day one we could not please everybody with the Naga no matter what we did with it. The real problem is not because players are lazy to train hybrids, but due to Caldari Hybrid ships being mostly underpowered, which leaves Caldari-oriented pilots little choice but to specialize into missiles to stay competitive. The little Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh and their tech2 variants have been abandoned in the orphanage, all ashamed of themselves and hiding in a corner until we can give them the fondling love they rightfully deserve. Poor things.
So, of course, it is a natural development that players get used to "Caldari is a synonym for missiles", but that doesn't make it true.
We tried to cater to everyone with the first split bonus version of the Naga, but it was a failure. As feedback rightfully pointed out, it had no defined role or special flavor on the field, so we had to decide to either go missiles or hybrids. And before you ask, sadly no, leaving both missiles and hybrids bonuses wasn't an option either, as that would have left the Naga too versatile as a whole, please remember it is a tech1 hull, not tech3.
So we had to weight the options here:
- Torpedoes: that created quite a certain number of issues; while their damage output looks nice in theory, they actually lack projection and suffer from damage reduction due to their high explosion radius. This conflicted with the Naga paper-thin tank, lack of general mobility in the field. We could have given it Stealth Bomber-like Torpedo explosion velocity, velocity and flight time bonuses but it was conflicting with an already existing ship class while not delivering not much new value itself.
- Cruise missiles: not much better as well, mainly because of their long travel time, which aren't that great for long range combat.
- Thus, using missiles delivered little short or even long range appeal for this ship. However, going for hybrids made much more sense, and we found out giving it a hybrid damage bonus would complement its long range role very well, despite conflicting with the Talos a bit (which is a complete different topic on itself). It also fits the existing high tier Caldari philosophy better, as they are railgun platforms, or at least deeply want and tryingveryhard to be.
So yes, the Naga is hybrid-based and will stay like that. If you like to play Caldari, we recommend you start training for hybrids, because having a look at the underused railgun boats definitely is a main course menu. |
|
Farrisen
MoaR ChickeN
50
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 13:02:00 -
[47] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, YES, let's beat whoever was in charge of that with a candlestick, how dare they tweak a ship that was not released yet! Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse! Let's find out, who made that change again, was it CCP Tallest? No, no... Little Tim, the toymaker's son? The ghost of King Lysandus? Or was it... Yes! Stanley, that talking grapefruit from Passwall! Grab the pitchforks, the torches! How dare they make us train for guns that shoot drones that shoot missiles, no hold it... it was Hybrids, or whatever, doesn't matter! The arrogance! Tie them to a chair and force them to watch a whole Twillight-¬ season non-stop for hours! Sickle the cycly slight with a sickly popsicle! ...Oh no, wait! ! Let's just use... THE-¬ WABBAJACK-¬! More seriously, we knew from day one we could not please everybody with the Naga no matter what we did with it. The real problem is not because players are lazy to train hybrids, but due to Caldari Hybrid ships being mostly underpowered, which leaves Caldari-oriented pilots little choice but to specialize into missiles to stay competitive. The little Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh and their tech2 variants have been abandoned in the orphanage, all ashamed of themselves and hiding in a corner until we can give them the fondling love they rightfully deserve. Poor things. So, of course, it is a natural development that players get used to "Caldari is a synonym for missiles", but that doesn't make it true. We tried to cater to everyone with the first split bonus version of the Naga, but it was a failure. As feedback rightfully pointed out, it had no defined role or special flavor on the field, so we had to decide to either go missiles or hybrids. And before you ask, sadly no, leaving both missiles and hybrids bonuses wasn't an option either, as that would have left the Naga too versatile as a whole, please remember it is a tech1 hull, not tech3. So we had to weight the options here:
- Torpedoes: that created quite a certain number of issues; while their damage output looks nice in theory, they actually lack projection and suffer from damage reduction due to their high explosion radius. This conflicted with the Naga paper-thin tank, lack of general mobility in the field. We could have given it Stealth Bomber-like Torpedo explosion velocity, velocity and flight time bonuses but it was conflicting with an already existing ship class while not delivering not much new value itself.
- Cruise missiles: not much better as well, mainly because of their long travel time, which aren't that great for long range combat.
- Thus, using missiles delivered little short or even long range appeal for this ship. However, going for hybrids made much more sense, and we found out giving it a hybrid damage bonus would complement its long range role very well, despite conflicting with the Talos a bit (which is a complete different topic on itself). It also fits the existing high tier Caldari philosophy better, as they are railgun platforms, or at least deeply want and tryingveryhard to be.
So yes, the Naga is hybrid-based and will stay like that. If you like to play Caldari, we recommend you start training for hybrids, because having a look at the underused railgun boats definitely is a main course menu.
+1 I for one feel the hybrid boat is better :)
http://i.imgur.com/DWBuV.png
Originally by: CCP Spitfire: It's because of falcon. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
684
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 13:14:00 -
[48] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:*snip really good stuffs*
Whoa, an actual explanation that makes perfect sense. Dude, if you'd mentioned this after the change there would (or should) have been much less heartbreak out there.
Thanks for a highly explanative post that clears things up nicely. So is it safe to assume, based on the tone of things, that hybrids are going to receive further lovin' across other ships as well?
I started training guns up to give the Naga it's due... this would be good news to know the training will definitely project across more than just the Naga.
Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
336
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 13:15:00 -
[49] - Quote
Qin Shi Huang wrote:I'm sure there are many other threads discussing the NAGA, but I don't give a hoot. I just re-subscribed to fly a Torp NAGA and now the NAGA is a Hybrid gunboat - WTF!
I don't care about the theoretical role as a "sniping platform" - I have never been in a sniper fleet and I struggle to see how a long-range ****-poor DPS fleet will do as a tactical concept. I guess we need Pandemic Legion to get their heads out of thier collective assess and figure this out.
Crucible is a great release - it's a way in the right direction. Making the NAGA a gunboat is a result of 60+M SP Chars cracking the numbers on how they can use it. Not how it was intended - the NAGA was intended to be a poor mans choice (SP & ISK) to fight the Super-Cap spam.
My NAGA needs Torpedoes and my Hawk needs the 4th bonus.
It does suck man! I'm a ******* profanity filter that can catch **** and *****, but fuckin little else. -á
|
Nathan Jameson
Talocan Dominion Talocan United
110
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 13:27:00 -
[50] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse!
Best part of the post there. |
|
Cailais
Rekall Incorporated The Forsaken.
155
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 13:33:00 -
[51] - Quote
Lysandus was King of Daggerfall. He was born to Arslan II and Nulfaga in the year 3E 354. He eventually married Mynisera, with whom he had a son Gothryd, who succeeded him as king. His life was cut short after 57 years in 3E 403 when he died during the War of Betony, in what was later revealed to be a trap set by Lord Woodborne of Wayrest.
Just wanted to clarify that in case anyone was wondering.
C. |
Dan Pyre
Wolfsbrigade
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 13:35:00 -
[52] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium,
I, along with most of the eve player base, very much appreciate that you and the team confirmed work on the Caldari hybrid boats. However, could you please please please please confirm that the Nighthawk is being looked at as well? It is currently very underwhelming in PvP, not to mention it has less power grid than it's TECH ONE variant? There is literally no reason to use a nighthawk in PvP over a Drake at the moment, and you know we all love diversity.
Sincerely,
Someone who has BC level V but has no reason to train Caldari cruiser V to get access to the Nighthawk |
Kata Amentis
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 13:50:00 -
[53] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:*snip really good stuffs* Whoa, an actual explanation that makes perfect sense. Dude, if you'd mentioned this after the change there would (or should) have been much less heartbreak out there. Thanks for a highly explanative post that clears things up nicely. So is it safe to assume, based on the tone of things, that hybrids are going to receive further lovin' across other ships as well? I started training guns up to give the Naga it's due... this would be good news to know the training will definitely project across more than just the Naga.
I think you might have missed this...
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=358849#post358849
... it's the same explantation as above in a slightly less wordy form, given at the time they changed the naga's specs on sisi. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
1368
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 13:52:00 -
[54] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: So yes, the Naga is hybrid-based and will stay like that. If you like to play Caldari, we recommend you start training for hybrids, because having a look at the underused railgun boats definitely is a main course menu.
You have but to change the Rokh's range bonus to a damage bonus and you will make me a happy man.
Oh, and the Ferox's tanking bonus to a RoF bonus please...
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Haleuth
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 13:52:00 -
[55] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, YES, let's beat whoever was in charge of that with a candlestick, how dare they tweak a ship that was not released yet! Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse! Let's find out, who made that change again, was it CCP Tallest? No, no... Little Tim, the toymaker's son? The ghost of King Lysandus? Or was it... Yes! Stanley, that talking grapefruit from Passwall! Grab the pitchforks, the torches! How dare they make us train for guns that shoot drones that shoot missiles, no hold it... it was Hybrids, or whatever, doesn't matter! The arrogance! Tie them to a chair and force them to watch a whole Twillight-¬ season non-stop for hours! Sickle the cycly slight with a sickly popsicle! ...Oh no, wait! ! Let's just use... THE-¬ WABBAJACK-¬! More seriously, we knew from day one we could not please everybody with the Naga no matter what we did with it. The real problem is not because players are lazy to train hybrids, but due to Caldari Hybrid ships being mostly underpowered, which leaves Caldari-oriented pilots little choice but to specialize into missiles to stay competitive. The little Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh and their tech2 variants have been abandoned in the orphanage, all ashamed of themselves and hiding in a corner until we can give them the fondling love they rightfully deserve. Poor things. So, of course, it is a natural development that players get used to "Caldari is a synonym for missiles", but that doesn't make it true. We tried to cater to everyone with the first split bonus version of the Naga, but it was a failure. As feedback rightfully pointed out, it had no defined role or special flavor on the field, so we had to decide to either go missiles or hybrids. And before you ask, sadly no, leaving both missiles and hybrids bonuses wasn't an option either, as that would have left the Naga too versatile as a whole, please remember it is a tech1 hull, not tech3. So we had to weight the options here:
- Torpedoes: that created quite a certain number of issues; while their damage output looks nice in theory, they actually lack projection and suffer from damage reduction due to their high explosion radius. This conflicted with the Naga paper-thin tank, lack of general mobility in the field. We could have given it Stealth Bomber-like Torpedo explosion velocity, velocity and flight time bonuses but it was conflicting with an already existing ship class while not delivering not much new value itself.
- Cruise missiles: not much better as well, mainly because of their long travel time, which aren't that great for long range combat.
- Thus, using missiles delivered little short or even long range appeal for this ship. However, going for hybrids made much more sense, and we found out giving it a hybrid damage bonus would complement its long range role very well, despite conflicting with the Talos a bit (which is a complete different topic on itself). It also fits the existing high tier Caldari philosophy better, as they are railgun platforms, or at least deeply want and tryingveryhard to be.
So yes, the Naga is hybrid-based and will stay like that. If you like to play Caldari, we recommend you start training for hybrids, because having a look at the underused railgun boats definitely is a main course menu.
I just want to say, i'm really liking the new CCP these days. For years you never really discussed issues with the players on the forums. You never gave explanations.
Your post CCP Ytterbium and the expansion you guys have just delivered really show that you have changed for the better.
Thank you
|
Rhinanna
The Warped Corpe Cascade Probable
71
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 14:15:00 -
[56] - Quote
Qin Shi Huang wrote:Not a single reply tried to even remotely justify the hyprid NAGA. A few posts even attacked my source of information. Too funny.
Thats cos it has already been said on the other threads which you are just too lazy to look at.
And the posts aren't attacking your source of information, they are attacking YOU for been a MORON.
Its that simple. Stop acting like a Moron and people will stop treating you like one.
Naga is fine with Rails/Blasters, its one of the best of the T3s, it would have sucked with torps.
If you can't be bothered to read the patch notes, the only person you can blame for not knowing what was in them is YOU.
Quote:How dare they make us train for guns that shoot drones that shoot missiles
Now I WANT a gun that shoots drones! That would rock! Enemy frig sitting at 100km off gate scouting, no problem, BANG, 5 drones on him ;) -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it! Other names: Drenzul (WoT, WoW, Lineage 2, WarH, BloodBowl, BSG, SC2 and lots more)-á |
Rhinanna
The Warped Corpe Cascade Probable
71
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 14:17:00 -
[57] - Quote
Quote:dreaming about a cost-efficient Caldari PVP missile boat.
You realise that is an EXACT description of the drake?????? -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it! Other names: Drenzul (WoT, WoW, Lineage 2, WarH, BloodBowl, BSG, SC2 and lots more)-á |
Hicksimus
Enslave. GIANTSBANE.
68
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 14:22:00 -
[58] - Quote
Rhinanna wrote:Quote:dreaming about a cost-efficient Caldari PVP missile boat. You realise that is an EXACT description of the drake??????
You mean 350dps at 80km with a better tank than almost every battleship for 30 million isn't a good pvp deal? Oh it gets light drones to fight frigates as well!
You can even use the natural tank of the drake to run a couple of webs and you still have more tank than most other ships..... Things I have realized from the EvE forums: Many people beleive cost means money and only money |
Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
329
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 14:46:00 -
[59] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, YES, let's beat whoever was in charge of that with a candlestick, how dare they tweak a ship that was not released yet! Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse! Let's find out, who made that change again, was it CCP Tallest? No, no... Little Tim, the toymaker's son? The ghost of King Lysandus? Or was it... Yes! Stanley, that talking grapefruit from Passwall!
F*king Timmy, I always knew that kid was up to no good.
- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |
Qin Shi Huang
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 14:48:00 -
[60] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium: Thanks for the explanation.
Rhinanna wrote:Quote:dreaming about a cost-efficient Caldari PVP missile boat. You realise that is an EXACT description of the drake??????
Yes - in the same way a cost-efficient Gallente PVP gunboat could be Brutix or Talos |
|
Denidil
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
230
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 14:48:00 -
[61] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:I was really having a good time in 100mn HML Nagas.
and that is why Naga's lost their missile hard points. Bored in 0.0?-á reset all standings.
|
Igualmentedos
Shadow Veil Industrial Shadow Directive
69
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 15:29:00 -
[62] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, YES, let's beat whoever was in charge of that with a candlestick, how dare they tweak a ship that was not released yet! Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse! Let's find out, who made that change again, was it CCP Tallest? No, no... Little Tim, the toymaker's son? The ghost of King Lysandus? Or was it... Yes! Stanley, that talking grapefruit from Passwall!
Thank you for that. Your post answered a lot of my questions, and I'm glad Caldari hybrid boats will get some love.
Good thing I just finished large guns! |
Asurymen
The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 15:30:00 -
[63] - Quote
TL;DR Version:
"CCP AREN'T CATERING TO MY TASTES, I DON'T WANT A BALANCED GAME I WANT A GAME I WILL ENJOY HOW DARE THEY THINK ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON WHAT I WANT BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW" |
Igualmentedos
Shadow Veil Industrial Shadow Directive
69
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 15:33:00 -
[64] - Quote
Asurymen wrote:TL;DR Version:
"CCP AREN'T CATERING TO MY TASTES, I DON'T WANT A BALANCED GAME I WANT A GAME I WILL ENJOY HOW DARE THEY THINK ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON WHAT I WANT BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW"
That's not what was being said, chill out man.
Seriously, this is what's wrong with the Eve community. |
Fidelium Mortis
Quantum Cats Syndicate
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 15:33:00 -
[65] - Quote
I think the decision to go with hybrids was a good idea. It's one of the few shield/rail platforms that will actually be used in the game. Given the relatively low defense of the tier 3 BC they probably wouldn't be too effective as a PvE torp boat. ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon |
Barakkus
1182
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 15:40:00 -
[66] - Quote
Haleuth wrote: I just want to say, i'm really liking the new CCP these days. For years you never really discussed issues with the players on the forums. You never gave explanations.
Your post CCP Ytterbium and the expansion you guys have just delivered really show that you have changed for the better.
Thank you
They used to, then they stopped, now they started again :) |
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
112
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 16:02:00 -
[67] - Quote
people who QQ for torp nagas don't understand that the hybrid naga is the best T3BC for sustained DPS and survivability.
Frankly, it's the best of the four imho, so why cry when "your" race got the best one?
"but i only trained missiles boohooo"
So what? I'm the token khanid pirate, with the exception of the curse, khanid ships are awful and I too had to train missiles (and drones, and lasers) for "my" race.
Get over it. |
Katabrok First
Apukaray Security
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 16:05:00 -
[68] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, YES, let's beat whoever was in charge of that with a candlestick, how dare they tweak a ship that was not released yet! Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse! Let's find out, who made that change again, was it CCP Tallest? No, no... Little Tim, the toymaker's son? The ghost of King Lysandus? Or was it... Yes! Stanley, that talking grapefruit from Passwall! Grab the pitchforks, the torches! How dare they make us train for guns that shoot drones that shoot missiles, no hold it... it was Hybrids, or whatever, doesn't matter! The arrogance! Tie them to a chair and force them to watch a whole Twillight-¬ season non-stop for hours! Sickle the cycly slight with a sickly popsicle! ...Oh no, wait! ! Let's just use... THE-¬ WABBAJACK-¬! More seriously, we knew from day one we could not please everybody with the Naga no matter what we did with it. The real problem is not because players are lazy to train hybrids, but due to Caldari Hybrid ships being mostly underpowered, which leaves Caldari-oriented pilots little choice but to specialize into missiles to stay competitive. The little Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh and their tech2 variants have been abandoned in the orphanage, all ashamed of themselves and hiding in a corner until we can give them the fondling love they rightfully deserve. Poor things. So, of course, it is a natural development that players get used to "Caldari is a synonym for missiles", but that doesn't make it true. We tried to cater to everyone with the first split bonus version of the Naga, but it was a failure. As feedback rightfully pointed out, it had no defined role or special flavor on the field, so we had to decide to either go missiles or hybrids. And before you ask, sadly no, leaving both missiles and hybrids bonuses wasn't an option either, as that would have left the Naga too versatile as a whole, please remember it is a tech1 hull, not tech3. So we had to weight the options here:
- Torpedoes: that created quite a certain number of issues; while their damage output looks nice in theory, they actually lack projection and suffer from damage reduction due to their high explosion radius. This conflicted with the Naga paper-thin tank, lack of general mobility in the field. We could have given it Stealth Bomber-like Torpedo explosion velocity, velocity and flight time bonuses but it was conflicting with an already existing ship class while not delivering not much new value itself.
- Cruise missiles: not much better as well, mainly because of their long travel time, which aren't that great for long range combat.
- Thus, using missiles delivered little short or even long range appeal for this ship. However, going for hybrids made much more sense, and we found out giving it a hybrid damage bonus would complement its long range role very well, despite conflicting with the Talos a bit (which is a complete different topic on itself). It also fits the existing high tier Caldari philosophy better, as they are railgun platforms, or at least deeply want and tryingveryhard to be.
So yes, the Naga is hybrid-based and will stay like that. If you like to play Caldari, we recommend you start training for hybrids, because having a look at the underused railgun boats definitely is a main course menu. Clap, clap, clap, clap!
You have no idea how heartening it is having this kind of response from CCP. After years of stonewalling, this new mentality on the job of client communication is what we needed to believe that CCP has make a 360-¦ in its development direction and is now going to be like the CCP of old. CCP did what any sane company should do when at the edge of the precipice: It took a bold step ahead.
Congratulations.
PS.: The 360-¦ and the step were intentional. |
Sam Bowein
Sense Amid Madness
17
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 16:25:00 -
[69] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, YES, let's beat whoever was in charge of that with a candlestick, how dare they tweak a ship that was not released yet! Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse! Let's find out, who made that change again, was it CCP Tallest? No, no... Little Tim, the toymaker's son? The ghost of King Lysandus? Or was it... Yes! Stanley, that talking grapefruit from Passwall!
Grab the pitchforks, the torches! How dare they make us train for guns that shoot drones that shoot missiles, no hold it... it was Hybrids, or whatever, doesn't matter! The arrogance! Tie them to a chair and force them to watch a whole Twillight-¬ season non-stop for hours! Sickle the cycly slight with a sickly popsicle! ...Oh no, wait! ! Let's just use... THE-¬ WABBAJACK-¬! That's nice butGǪ Imperial or Stormcloak ?
Also your mention of the wabbajack gave me and idea for the new year present.
What about ammunition that does random effect: damage, repair, ecm, or teleportation to a random system |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
134
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 16:39:00 -
[70] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, YES, let's beat whoever was in charge of that with a candlestick, how dare they tweak a ship that was not released yet! Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse! Let's find out, who made that change again, was it CCP Tallest? No, no... Little Tim, the toymaker's son? The ghost of King Lysandus? Or was it... Yes! Stanley, that talking grapefruit from Passwall! Grab the pitchforks, the torches! How dare they make us train for guns that shoot drones that shoot missiles, no hold it... it was Hybrids, or whatever, doesn't matter! The arrogance! Tie them to a chair and force them to watch a whole Twillight-¬ season non-stop for hours! Sickle the cycly slight with a sickly popsicle! ...Oh no, wait! ! Let's just use... THE-¬ WABBAJACK-¬! More seriously, we knew from day one we could not please everybody with the Naga no matter what we did with it. The real problem is not because players are lazy to train hybrids, but due to Caldari Hybrid ships being mostly underpowered, which leaves Caldari-oriented pilots little choice but to specialize into missiles to stay competitive. The little Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh and their tech2 variants have been abandoned in the orphanage, all ashamed of themselves and hiding in a corner until we can give them the fondling love they rightfully deserve. Poor things. So, of course, it is a natural development that players get used to "Caldari is a synonym for missiles", but that doesn't make it true. We tried to cater to everyone with the first split bonus version of the Naga, but it was a failure. As feedback rightfully pointed out, it had no defined role or special flavor on the field, so we had to decide to either go missiles or hybrids. And before you ask, sadly no, leaving both missiles and hybrids bonuses wasn't an option either, as that would have left the Naga too versatile as a whole, please remember it is a tech1 hull, not tech3. So we had to weight the options here:
- Torpedoes: that created quite a certain number of issues; while their damage output looks nice in theory, they actually lack projection and suffer from damage reduction due to their high explosion radius. This conflicted with the Naga paper-thin tank, lack of general mobility in the field. We could have given it Stealth Bomber-like Torpedo explosion velocity, velocity and flight time bonuses but it was conflicting with an already existing ship class while not delivering not much new value itself.
- Cruise missiles: not much better as well, mainly because of their long travel time, which aren't that great for long range combat.
- Thus, using missiles delivered little short or even long range appeal for this ship. However, going for hybrids made much more sense, and we found out giving it a hybrid damage bonus would complement its long range role very well, despite conflicting with the Talos a bit (which is a complete different topic on itself). It also fits the existing high tier Caldari philosophy better, as they are railgun platforms, or at least deeply want and tryingveryhard to be.
So yes, the Naga is hybrid-based and will stay like that. If you like to play Caldari, we recommend you start training for hybrids, because having a look at the underused railgun boats definitely is a main course menu.
Goddamit that's a good post.
The Naga/Talos conflict exists but may not be too much of a problem. The Talos is faster and has more applied DPS, thanks to better tracking and drones. While they do overlap a bit I think there's still distinct roles for them.
Glad to see that you're keeping an eye on the other Caldari railboats. Not sure exactly how to fix them myself though. The optimal bonus is pretty basic Caldari nature, but as seen with the Naga, these ships need a damage bonus to not be hopelessly outclassed by others except at ranges where combat simply doesn't happen. Sure, you can drop the shield resist bonus for damage, but that shield resist bonus is powerful and useful and it would be a shame to see it go. Alternateively, just making rails better runs the risk of making the Gallente boats better than the Caldari ones at being rail platforms, which is silly. |
|
Amro One
One.
44
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 16:41:00 -
[71] - Quote
To the morons that want a torp naga.
There are 8 gun slot BS in eve, so 8 gun BC makes sense.
There is only 1 ship in all of eve that can fit 8 torps and that worth a few 100b. So a BC with 8 torps does NOT make sense.
Think before you speak morons.
P.S. - We all know you would ***** if the naga was forced to uses 6 torps. |
Dbars Grinding
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
73
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 16:54:00 -
[72] - Quote
lol hybrids. |
Biytor
Star Frontiers BricK sQuAD.
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 17:14:00 -
[73] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, YES, let's beat whoever was in charge of that with a candlestick, how dare they tweak a ship that was not released yet! Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse! Let's find out, who made that change again, was it CCP Tallest? No, no... Little Tim, the toymaker's son? The ghost of King Lysandus? Or was it... Yes! Stanley, that talking grapefruit from Passwall! Grab the pitchforks, the torches! How dare they make us train for guns that shoot drones that shoot missiles, no hold it... it was Hybrids, or whatever, doesn't matter! The arrogance! Tie them to a chair and force them to watch a whole Twillight-¬ season non-stop for hours! Sickle the cycly slight with a sickly popsicle! ...Oh no, wait! ! Let's just use... THE-¬ WABBAJACK-¬! More seriously, we knew from day one we could not please everybody with the Naga no matter what we did with it. The real problem is not because players are lazy to train hybrids, but due to Caldari Hybrid ships being mostly underpowered, which leaves Caldari-oriented pilots little choice but to specialize into missiles to stay competitive. The little Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh and their tech2 variants have been abandoned in the orphanage, all ashamed of themselves and hiding in a corner until we can give them the fondling love they rightfully deserve. Poor things. So, of course, it is a natural development that players get used to "Caldari is a synonym for missiles", but that doesn't make it true. We tried to cater to everyone with the first split bonus version of the Naga, but it was a failure. As feedback rightfully pointed out, it had no defined role or special flavor on the field, so we had to decide to either go missiles or hybrids. And before you ask, sadly no, leaving both missiles and hybrids bonuses wasn't an option either, as that would have left the Naga too versatile as a whole, please remember it is a tech1 hull, not tech3. So we had to weight the options here:
- Torpedoes: that created quite a certain number of issues; while their damage output looks nice in theory, they actually lack projection and suffer from damage reduction due to their high explosion radius. This conflicted with the Naga paper-thin tank, lack of general mobility in the field. We could have given it Stealth Bomber-like Torpedo explosion velocity, velocity and flight time bonuses but it was conflicting with an already existing ship class while not delivering not much new value itself.
- Cruise missiles: not much better as well, mainly because of their long travel time, which aren't that great for long range combat.
- Thus, using missiles delivered little short or even long range appeal for this ship. However, going for hybrids made much more sense, and we found out giving it a hybrid damage bonus would complement its long range role very well, despite conflicting with the Talos a bit (which is a complete different topic on itself). It also fits the existing high tier Caldari philosophy better, as they are railgun platforms, or at least deeply want and tryingveryhard to be.
So yes, the Naga is hybrid-based and will stay like that. If you like to play Caldari, we recommend you start training for hybrids, because having a look at the underused railgun boats definitely is a main course menu.
+1 I like the direction CCP took this ship. Moving away from the missile boat is a good thing for the Caldari. We already have a good selection of missile boats to begin with and we needed an alternative to those. With the hybrid changes and the advent of the Naga, I think we are on the right path.
But now CCP needs to go to the other races and give them some missile love. Give them some missile boats to play with!
Get ride of the split weapon systems. Why would you use a split weapon system in the 1st place? Make all the ships either gun or missile boats. No more of this half and half stuff. It's just tactically a bad idea.
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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
685
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 17:16:00 -
[74] - Quote
Amro One wrote:To the morons that want a torp naga.
There are 8 gun slot BS in eve, so 8 gun BC makes sense.
There is only 1 ship in all of eve that can fit 8 torps and that worth a few 100b. So a BC with 8 torps does NOT make sense.
Think before you speak morons.
P.S. - We all know you would ***** if the naga was forced to uses 6 torps.
No need to be such an ass. eAnonymity FTW I guess.
The main complaint is that many dedicated Caldari pilots went nearly solely into missiles, so for many the Naga is currently out of reach without a couple months training (for T2). I'd have loved a torp boat personally. Initially the hybridization of the Naga made me sad and right it off... however hybrids are currently being trained now so I'll be getting one of these puppies with T1 guns initially to get a feel for it... maybe see how it does against a few customs offices or the like. I like the potential role they can play in a POS bash, especially in a C1. I don't know if the tank would survive the guns, however for taking it to reinforced once the guns are incapped... it holds promise.
Basically, due to the prior Caldari paradigm, this change put the Naga as a "future" ship for many as opposed to the others, which were instantly "current" ships. That's all. People aren't looking forwards to training up the guns, but in time, they will. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1978
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 17:22:00 -
[75] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:The main complaint is that many dedicated Caldari pilots went nearly solely into missiles
Pff. That just made them poorly dedicatedGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Mukutep
Capital Industries Research And Development Fidelas Constans
6
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 17:36:00 -
[76] - Quote
KrakizBad wrote:Sniper fleets more than 150km from a target will never again be used except by idiots who don't know what a scan probe is.
What is this "skan proab" you speak of?!
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Igualmentedos
Shadow Veil Industrial Shadow Directive
70
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 18:34:00 -
[77] - Quote
Amro One wrote:To the morons that want a torp naga.
There are 8 gun slot BS in eve, so 8 gun BC makes sense.
There is only 1 ship in all of eve that can fit 8 torps and that worth a few 100b. So a BC with 8 torps does NOT make sense.
Think before you speak morons.
P.S. - We all know you would ***** if the naga was forced to uses 6 torps.
Hey, try to hide your butthurt a little better. Nobody said anything about 8 launchers being the reason torps were taken away. Read the dev's post and stop being an obnoxious neckbeard.
Ugh... 2/10 man you're better than this. |
Qin Shi Huang
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 18:40:00 -
[78] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Amro One wrote:To the morons that want a torp naga.
There are 8 gun slot BS in eve, so 8 gun BC makes sense.
There is only 1 ship in all of eve that can fit 8 torps and that worth a few 100b. So a BC with 8 torps does NOT make sense.
Think before you speak morons.
P.S. - We all know you would ***** if the naga was forced to uses 6 torps. No need to be such an ass. eAnonymity FTW I guess. The main complaint is that many dedicated Caldari pilots went nearly solely into missiles, so for many the Naga is currently out of reach without a couple months training (for T2). I'd have loved a torp boat personally. Initially the hybridization of the Naga made me sad and right it off... however hybrids are currently being trained now so I'll be getting one of these puppies with T1 guns initially to get a feel for it... maybe see how it does against a few customs offices or the like. I like the potential role they can play in a POS bash, especially in a C1. I don't know if the tank would survive the guns, however for taking it to reinforced once the guns are incapped... it holds promise. Basically, due to the prior Caldari paradigm, this change put the Naga as a "future" ship for many as opposed to the others, which were instantly "current" ships. That's all. People aren't looking forwards to training up the guns, but in time, they will.
+1 I have avoided hybrids for almost two years as I was planning to take my Caldari character directly to capitals. My first CEO gave me the sound advice to only fly what you fly well and specialize in a few things instead of being a jack of all trades. It's easy to do everything when you have 40M SP, but around 10-20M you'll have to prioritize and make sacrifices. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
692
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 18:46:00 -
[79] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:The main complaint is that many dedicated Caldari pilots went nearly solely into missiles
Pff. That just made them poorly dedicatedGǪ
Perhaps, but I'm a good example... my combat pilot did exactly this. All I've heard of training into is the drake, the drake or optionally the drake. Hence, missile dedication.
Now it like... gunz? Gunz. Guhns? Guuuuuunnnnnnzzzzzzssss.... Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Jhan Niber
EdgeGamers Situation: Normal
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:44:00 -
[80] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Tippia wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:The main complaint is that many dedicated Caldari pilots went nearly solely into missiles
Pff. That just made them poorly dedicatedGǪ Perhaps, but I'm a good example... my combat pilot did exactly this. All I've heard of training into is the drake, the drake or optionally the drake. Hence, missile dedication. Now it like... gunz? Gunz. Guhns? Guuuuuunnnnnnzzzzzzssss....
So, you're learning that some of your racial ships aren't quite fitting into it's stereotypical categories just like every other race has. I'm a pure Minmatar pilot and I have focused primarily on Projectile weapons, but if I want to fly a Typhoon well I'm going to have to learn to use missiles and drones well. Amarrians have their few missile based ships as well like the Malediction, the Sacrilege, and certain versions of the Legion. The Gallente are very drone and armor heavy, but then you have the Hyperion which is a big shield tanked blaster boat, so just be happy they didn't force the Naga to work best with armor on top of everything. |
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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
692
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 19:50:00 -
[81] - Quote
Jhan Niber wrote:So, you're learning that some of your racial ships aren't quite fitting into it's stereotypical categories just like every other race has. I'm a pure Minmatar pilot and I have focused primarily on Projectile weapons, but if I want to fly a Typhoon well I'm going to have to learn to use missiles and drones well. Amarrians have their few missile based ships as well like the Malediction, the Sacrilege, and certain versions of the Legion. The Gallente are very drone and armor heavy, but then you have the Hyperion which is a big shield tanked blaster boat, so just be happy they didn't force the Naga to work best with armor on top of everything.
No, I learned that if I want to fly the Naga I need to train hybrids, which I hadn't focused on before due to training drake/tengu.
So I am. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Qin Shi Huang
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 20:19:00 -
[82] - Quote
Jhan Niber wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Tippia wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:The main complaint is that many dedicated Caldari pilots went nearly solely into missiles
Pff. That just made them poorly dedicatedGǪ Perhaps, but I'm a good example... my combat pilot did exactly this. All I've heard of training into is the drake, the drake or optionally the drake. Hence, missile dedication. Now it like... gunz? Gunz. Guhns? Guuuuuunnnnnnzzzzzzssss.... So, you're learning that some of your racial ships aren't quite fitting into it's stereotypical categories just like every other race has. I'm a pure Minmatar pilot and I have focused primarily on Projectile weapons, but if I want to fly a Typhoon well I'm going to have to learn to use missiles and drones well. Amarrians have their few missile based ships as well like the Malediction, the Sacrilege, and certain versions of the Legion. The Gallente are very drone and armor heavy, but then you have the Hyperion which is a big shield tanked blaster boat, so just be happy they didn't force the Naga to work best with armor on top of everything.
An armour tanked Caldari BC with 7 Torp launchers? I freakin love the idea. The NAGA is already slower than the armour heavy Talos, so why not. Anyway, as the CCP dev explained earlier: we know that missiles sucks donkey balls, so we made it a gunboat.
Should I fly the Talos or the Naga? (no skill requirements) 7.5% Tracking bonus vs. 10% to optimal. 200K range or 150K. Damn, too many options. |
The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 00:24:00 -
[83] - Quote
Amro One wrote:To the morons that want a torp naga.
There are 8 gun slot BS in eve, so 8 gun BC makes sense.
There is only 1 ship in all of eve that can fit 8 torps and that worth a few 100b. So a BC with 8 torps does NOT make sense.
Think before you speak morons.
P.S. - We all know you would ***** if the naga was forced to uses 6 torps.
Funny that the raven got 8 after the rof bonus and the golem also got 8 after 100% damage bonus, similar as the Naga. Way to go, showing off your superior knowledge about caldari good sir.
Dbars Grinding wrote:lol hybrids.
This. |
Shivus Tao
Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild
106
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 00:48:00 -
[84] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Amro One wrote:To the morons that want a torp naga.
There are 8 gun slot BS in eve, so 8 gun BC makes sense.
There is only 1 ship in all of eve that can fit 8 torps and that worth a few 100b. So a BC with 8 torps does NOT make sense.
Think before you speak morons.
P.S. - We all know you would ***** if the naga was forced to uses 6 torps. Funny that the raven got 8 after the rof bonus and the golem also got 8 after 100% damage bonus, similar as the Naga. Way to go, showing off your superior knowledge about caldari good sir. Dbars Grinding wrote:lol hybrids. This.
Fun fact: The golem is substantially more PVP viable than a bonus-less torpedo naga. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
134
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 01:00:00 -
[85] - Quote
Amro One wrote:To the morons that want a torp naga.
There are 8 gun slot BS in eve, so 8 gun BC makes sense.
There is only 1 ship in all of eve that can fit 8 torps and that worth a few 100b. So a BC with 8 torps does NOT make sense.
Think before you speak morons.
P.S. - We all know you would ***** if the naga was forced to uses 6 torps.
There are many good reasons why the torp Naga would have been hopeless. This is not one of them. The State Raven is not worth 100 bn because it has 8 launchers, it's worth 100 bn because it's a State Raven. |
Infinion
Awesome Corp
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 02:39:00 -
[86] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium,
Did you consider just removing the split bonus for torpedoes but retaining the missile hardpoints? Having hybrid-only bonuses would still cater players towards using railguns but would also give them the option to fit missiles. It would be almost exactly how the Rohk was designed, except it only gets half the hardpoints. |
Pika Pedel
Hedion University Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 02:50:00 -
[87] - Quote
I can't tell if he is saying caldari hybrid ships are now fine or if they're not fine and are going to be iterated on. I hope it's the latter.
Although the post was amusing so +1 anyway. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
339
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 08:41:00 -
[88] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Torpedoes: that created quite a certain number of issues; while their damage output looks nice in theory, they actually lack projection and suffer from damage reduction due to their high explosion radius. This conflicted with the Naga paper-thin tank, lack of general mobility in the field. We could have given it Stealth Bomber-like Torpedo explosion velocity, velocity and flight time bonuses but it was conflicting with an already existing ship class while not delivering not much new value itself.
All so terribly true. That won't stop me remembering my thoroughly enjoyable if brief affair with the torpedo Naga :) |
Hwong Jian
SniggWaffe
25
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 10:36:00 -
[89] - Quote
Am I the only person who read through this thread and pictured an Ang Lee style movie based on EVE?
I can see it now... Brokeback Fountain, with Qin Shi Huang holding a torpedo and saying "I just can't quit you." |
The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 11:06:00 -
[90] - Quote
Shivus Tao wrote:Fun fact: The golem is substantially more PVP viable than a bonus-less torpedo naga.
It had the same bonuses as the Golem in the first draft as well.
I actually liked the torp naga and I think a quick torp ship with solid range and dps could have been a good addition to the caldari lineup overall and would have been well balanced against the tornado(if ccp would have cut the dps a bit) or the Oracle(if CCP would have sticked with the original concept of a long range harbinger instead of a more mobile Abaddon w/o cap issues).
I am well aware that the ship does the basically the same dps at 50km with rails than it was able to do with javelins before the change(something around the 700+ dps ballpark) however the tracking compared to the tornado or oracle with close range guns is pretty disappointing at this ranges and in the end you just end up with another sniper ship(a good one, I give you that) instead of a sniper and a fairly good medium range ship(like the Oracle and Tornado). You could call it personal taste that I would have preferred the close to medium range option more, on the other hand caldari already have tons of sniper hulls in her lineup that see next to no use ingame, because other hulls are just better outside of sniping.
I guess that you could add that the optimal + damage bonuses + better tank makes the Naga far better than the Talos in bigger fights, but this is more or less trivial given the overall relevance of it where it gets beaten by the alternatives at sniping and medium range while it brings nothing to the table that would have made it realistically work at point blank.
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Zerakix
The White Mantle
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 11:56:00 -
[91] - Quote
Jhan Niber wrote: So, you're learning that some of your racial ships aren't quite fitting into it's stereotypical categories just like every other race has. I'm a pure Minmatar pilot and I have focused primarily on Projectile weapons, but if I want to fly a Typhoon well I'm going to have to learn to use missiles and drones well. Amarrians have their few missile based ships as well like the Malediction, the Sacrilege, and certain versions of the Legion. The Gallente are very drone and armor heavy, but then you have the Hyperion which is a big shield tanked blaster boat, so just be happy they didn't force the Naga to work best with armor on top of everything.
Ya nothing beats having to train for both shield and armor tanking while also training for projectiles and missiles in order to use all of the Winmatar ships correctly... |
Hemmo Paskiainen
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
45
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 12:17:00 -
[92] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Cruise missiles: not much better as well, mainly because of their long travel time, which aren't that great for long range combat.
U just analyze a problem, let me answere with a fix : Let cruise missiles go faster.
Not that im interested in a missile naga, cant rly be botherd, but just to fix the game a bit more :)
Nice job on the hulls and an entire new divertitile way of fleeting in 0.0, hac-¦s were bad on sniping anyway
wtb BO fix CCP FIX BLACK OPS FFS |
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 09:43:00 -
[93] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, YES, let's beat whoever was in charge of that with a candlestick, how dare they tweak a ship that was not released yet! Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse! Let's find out, who made that change again, was it CCP Tallest? No, no... Little Tim, the toymaker's son? The ghost of King Lysandus? Or was it... Yes! Stanley, that talking grapefruit from Passwall! Grab the pitchforks, the torches! How dare they make us train for guns that shoot drones that shoot missiles, no hold it... it was Hybrids, or whatever, doesn't matter! The arrogance! Tie them to a chair and force them to watch a whole Twillight-¬ season non-stop for hours! Sickle the cycly slight with a sickly popsicle! ...Oh no, wait! ! Let's just use... THE-¬ WABBAJACK-¬! More seriously, we knew from day one we could not please everybody with the Naga no matter what we did with it. The real problem is not because players are lazy to train hybrids, but due to Caldari Hybrid ships being mostly underpowered, which leaves Caldari-oriented pilots little choice but to specialize into missiles to stay competitive. The little Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh and their tech2 variants have been abandoned in the orphanage, all ashamed of themselves and hiding in a corner until we can give them the fondling love they rightfully deserve. Poor things. So, of course, it is a natural development that players get used to "Caldari is a synonym for missiles", but that doesn't make it true. We tried to cater to everyone with the first split bonus version of the Naga, but it was a failure. As feedback rightfully pointed out, it had no defined role or special flavor on the field, so we had to decide to either go missiles or hybrids. And before you ask, sadly no, leaving both missiles and hybrids bonuses wasn't an option either, as that would have left the Naga too versatile as a whole, please remember it is a tech1 hull, not tech3. So we had to weight the options here:
- Torpedoes: that created quite a certain number of issues; while their damage output looks nice in theory, they actually lack projection and suffer from damage reduction due to their high explosion radius. This conflicted with the Naga paper-thin tank, lack of general mobility in the field. We could have given it Stealth Bomber-like Torpedo explosion velocity, velocity and flight time bonuses but it was conflicting with an already existing ship class while not delivering not much new value itself.
- Cruise missiles: not much better as well, mainly because of their long travel time, which aren't that great for long range combat.
- Thus, using missiles delivered little short or even long range appeal for this ship. However, going for hybrids made much more sense, and we found out giving it a hybrid damage bonus would complement its long range role very well, despite conflicting with the Talos a bit (which is a complete different topic on itself). It also fits the existing high tier Caldari philosophy better, as they are railgun platforms, or at least deeply want and tryingveryhard to be.
So yes, the Naga is hybrid-based and will stay like that. If you like to play Caldari, we recommend you start training for hybrids, because having a look at the underused railgun boats definitely is a main course menu.
Thanks a lot! That was exactly the kind of information I was looking for. I would have loved a torpedo naga though but I'm fine with the explanation above. |
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