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schurem
Anarchy Inc. Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:04:00 -
[31]
I like the gate key idea. The mechanics needed are already in, as there's quite a few mission which have locked gates, opened by keys. Have the agent issue a key. If you have to warp out, ask for another one at the agent, or maybe have him issue a couple of them. Whatever, easy to work out. Oveur, you getting this? <<<< No Boundaries, No Fences, Fly Free Or Die Trying >>>>
Warning sounds!, My kingdom for more warning sounds!
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Xsag
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:07:00 -
[32]
isnt that going to cause a problem for people that do missions in gangs?
~n00b of all trades~ ~~Airkio~~ / ~~Muvolailen~~ ~if im posting on here its cos im in work~ |
Jerd Ero'kad
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:10:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Herculite .... Local means even the biggest, stupidest care bear can tell who is hostile. ...
I just had to comment on this.... The biggest stupidest carebears never paid attention to local in the first place, what makes you think they will start now?
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Xsag
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:13:00 -
[34]
i have local/corp windows tied to my cargo window and check them all regularly even in hi-sec - something i learned from my shortlived time in low-sec
~n00b of all trades~ ~~Airkio~~ / ~~Muvolailen~~ ~if im posting on here its cos im in work~ |
Kassidus
Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:14:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Makree Hmm, I wonder how long it will be before instancing is introduced to Eve?
Cause if the player who like to run missions, can't even run them in high sec space they are gonna leave. And you can be sure CCP won't let that happen.
Gawd, the more I see of this patch, the more I hate it.
I agree if this **** starts happening to me im gonna be ****ed, I dont mind PVP but I like to run missions where its safe and if theres no way to fight back thats just rediculous.
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Kassidus
Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:15:00 -
[36]
Originally by: schurem I like the gate key idea. The mechanics needed are already in, as there's quite a few mission which have locked gates, opened by keys. Have the agent issue a key. If you have to warp out, ask for another one at the agent, or maybe have him issue a couple of them. Whatever, easy to work out. Oveur, you getting this?
yes please Keys , accept the mission , key is in your hangar drop it in your cargo hold and away you go, fantastic prblem solved.
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Dreamdancer
Minmatar Ceryshen Strategic Analysis Vanu Space Command
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:17:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Makree Hmm, I wonder how long it will be before instancing is introduced to Eve?
Cause if the player who like to run missions, can't even run them in high sec space they are gonna leave. And you can be sure CCP won't let that happen.
Gawd, the more I see of this patch, the more I hate it.
This is the only part of the patch I dislike. Ganking/pvp is all good. Griefing is not. What was done to the OP was griefing pure and simple. Many of the people who have responded here want to join in on this griefing tactic because it has maximum griefing effect with 0 risk and is stupid simple to do.
I hate to say it, cause I very much don't want it, but with this now in the game instancing has to be introduced or missioning anywhere at any level will be open to griefers.
All this will do is drive players away. Many people do missions when they start playing. Even if it's only a couple before moving on to other activities. We all hear about the losers who sit outside stations and drop containers tempting new players to open the container just they can pop them. That's nothing but griefing there. Now those same players will scan and warp into lvl 1 missions and grief new players even harder. This will anger and drive off many potential new players.
We are recruiting! |
Glumpumpkin
House Elf Liberation Front
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:20:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Herculite The problem I have with this patch is its taking more skill elements out of the game.
Scanning probing got way to easy. Local means even the biggest, stupidest care bear can tell who is hostile. Warp to zero is fine gate to gate, but since it works anywhere in the system you don't have to be clever with your off plane warps to make them work as an insta.
Its a bit of wussification of eve. I want the lazy and stupid punished and the smart and clever rewarded. Instead things just got easier.
These 'Elements of Skill' you refer to are really just an intimate knowledge of game mechanics. Let's examine how the changes you detailed affect each area of the game:
Highsec: Local changes: Most populated highsec systems have local channels too large for this to make a difference. War targets still battle on gates and stations
Warp to 0: Travel is ten times faster and suicide gankers have fewer opportunities to ruin someone's day, but wardecced corps have fewer opportunities to engage their enemies.
Scan Probing: Mission runners, previously invulnerable to greif tactics and wardecs now have to watch their backs while running their missions.
lowsec Local Changes: Missioners and miners now know when a wartarget has entered the system, IF they are watching local closely. (speaking from experience this is rarely the case) Full-time pirates have a more difficult job than they used to, which is just as well considering they typically have the SP to survive in 0.0. Non-wartargets and occasional pirates don't register as friend or foe.
Warp to 0: Travel times reduced 10-fold, lowsec is no longer limited to those with cumbersome insta sets. Pirates have to be close to gates within range of sentry guns in order to warp scramble their victims.
Scan Probing: Mission runners, previously invulnerable from attrition, now have to watch local and their overview while running a mission. Pirates have one more form of piracy to replace to turn to in times of boredom.
0.0 Local: 0.0 corps used to use their addressbook to identify enemies, now they can use local taking a load off the servers. Everyone in local should be considered hostile in 0.0, so nothing has changed.
Warp to 0: Space that was once protected by the prohibitive cost of insta sets is now open to everyone to travel through quickly. Players have to rely on Interdictors and Warp bubbles to stop targets. 0.0 has become more dangerous as a result of increased accessibility.
Scan Probes: Mission runners and ratters, previously invulnerable as long as they safespotted and cloaked, now have to watch their backs and constantly warp from safespot to safespot to avoid being caught and killed. Enemy gangs can no longer afford to play the warping game until the other side gives up, as scanning is too quick for that. They are forced to engage.
-
To me it looks like EVE got a little more dangerous for everybody, and a little more fair. How is this wussification?
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Ehrys Marakai
Caldari Mindstar Technology United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:21:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Xsag isnt that going to cause a problem for people that do missions in gangs?
No, it already works this way with deadspace complexes. I think you get about 15-20 seconds in order to activate the gate once the key is used.
Although I hate griefers as much as any man/woman, this actually obeys real word laws in a twisted sense. Someone breaks into your home and steals everything, if you so much as lay one finger on him, you will go to jail, for either A) Kidnapping, B) GHB, C) ABH, D) Attempted Murder and if you're really stupiud/unlucky E) Murder 2nd Degree.
So: 1. Stop this from happening. Key requirement for mission critical loot missions, 2. Allow users to "prosecute" theives. Can't see this happening personally but it's an idea :P 3. Allow people to be shot without CONCORD interference when in deadspace missions. <-- I prefer this idea.
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Ishana
Minmatar The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:25:00 -
[40]
All the people shouting they want the missions gates locked or instances, don;t seem to realise the underlying problem.
THE NEW SCANNING SYSTEM IS TO GOOD!!!
Don't try to cure the symptoms (griefers running rampant), cure the ******* disease! (new scanning system)
Doing nothing will make people that do missions leave EVE and locking missions will make the pirates leave. Just return to the old system of scanning with some minor tweaks. Maybe only the new skills for scanning time and accuracy and you're done. _________________________________________________________
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Glumpumpkin
House Elf Liberation Front
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:30:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Ishana THE NEW SCANNING SYSTEM IS TO GOOD!!!
GUYS IM NOT INVULNERABLE ANYMORE IN MY DEADSPACE MISSION NERF SCANNING OR I SWEAR LOTS OF OTHER PLAYERS SIMILAR TO ME WILL QUIT
OH I WONT QUIT MYSELF ILL JUST COMPLAIN ON THESE FORUMS BUT I AM SURE PEOPLE WILL BE LEAVING IN DROVES
please read the 'how scanning changes affect 0.0' in my above post
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Vanguard Frontiers Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:31:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Smagd
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Can theft is one thing... Mission loot theft by jumping in... Lol.
Actually I can see someone pirating in high sec with it. Wait till the mission runner gets scrambled by NPC's, then uncloak, aggro all and warp out. Come back in and cloak while the mission runner is forced to tank everything, possibly dieing in the process....
Haha ... .waaiit ...
Very funny: Now I'm not sure what prospect scares me more - running missions in low-sec, or in high-sec.
Tell you what, maybe I'll start using mission deadspace as pirate-bait. I hear they drop better loot than mission NPCs anyway.
I can imagine a couple of pirates - one jumps in a suicide frig to aggro all, and the other also in a fast frig to bump the mission runner to stop him warping out.....
Hmmm.... I better keep quiet from now on.... --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Ehrys Marakai
Caldari Mindstar Technology United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:31:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Glumpumpkin Rather good text which I had to delete to save space.
Very good points, but, high-sec is the issue. High-Sec is there so that noobs and wussy players can play the game they way they want to. With ore thieves there is an anti-theft mechanism (kill rights) with pirates, there is concord. Now that missions are enterable by anyone and their dog, there is no mechanism to defend yourself from this. Which means three things could happen: 1. People will stop doing missions and start mining, flooding the market, economy in Eve collapses as there is no longer as high demand for modules (no one dying from mission running). 2. People will stop doing missions and leave the game. 3. People will stop doing missions and move to low sec. <-- This would be good, but 80% of players I doubt would be able to.
Then you have the problem, what about new players? They warp to a mission and find this guy already killed everything and nicked off with the loot. New players cash reserve increases by 10-15K a mission. Effectively reducing any new players chance of any income within 4-5 months of skill training (mining isn't viable, especially if you have created a fighting character, could take you a week to earn 100K). This stops players joining the game unless they're REAL dedicated or somehow are isolated from the griefers.
Personally, I live in 0.0. But in the interests of fair play, and what users themselves choose to do, something needs to be done that allows people to defend themselves from such griefers.
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Roy Batty68
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:33:00 -
[44]
Gate keys = instancing
If they implement such a solution, they need to stop promoting EVE as a "no instancing" type of game. Because for all practical purposes, there really is no difference between "instances" and "locked gate dead spaces".
If anything, CCP needs to seriously consider getting rid of the keys needed for other complexes. Not make more.
Originally by: Big Al
Well, if there was a law against stupidity, the server would certainly lag less.
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Kelkyen
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:35:00 -
[45]
I may just be a noob, but if someone just jumps into a mission of mine, whats stopping me jumping out and letting everything gank the thief? They don't know which npc type I'd be fighing and may not have the right resists, and with all the scanner stuff and the speed somethings gotta give on their end.
The mission runner could end up with some nice loot too. |
Dreamdancer
Minmatar Ceryshen Strategic Analysis Vanu Space Command
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:35:00 -
[46]
Originally by: schurem I like the gate key idea. The mechanics needed are already in, as there's quite a few mission which have locked gates, opened by keys. Have the agent issue a key. If you have to warp out, ask for another one at the agent, or maybe have him issue a couple of them. Whatever, easy to work out. Oveur, you getting this?
I like the gate key idea as well, but it needs to be a use it once and all your gang mates can use it even if they get there a bit late or as what many do now, the main tanker goes in and grabs agro then other warpin to help. If each needs to have a key it'll be a pain.
Otherwise activities such as I do regularly are gonna be killed. These are I like to do lvl 4 missions and like to bring along new members of our corp to show them some big rats and to let them get some serious isk. Plus they can feel they've earned the isk by killing the frigs I'd have had to waste many cruise missiles on. If we all warp in together the NPC's agro the weakest target by default. Pop goes a new player.
So all that needs done is add a mission key and the mission leader uses it and anyone ganged with him can access the gate once it is used.
We are recruiting! |
Ishana
Minmatar The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:37:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Glumpumpkin
Originally by: Ishana THE NEW SCANNING SYSTEM IS TO GOOD!!!
GUYS IM NOT INVULNERABLE ANYMORE IN MY DEADSPACE MISSION NERF SCANNING OR I SWEAR LOTS OF OTHER PLAYERS SIMILAR TO ME WILL QUIT
OH I WONT QUIT MYSELF ILL JUST COMPLAIN ON THESE FORUMS BUT I AM SURE PEOPLE WILL BE LEAVING IN DROVES
please read the 'how scanning changes affect 0.0' in my above post
the funny thing is I'm the pirate who scans people out in droves and loot their wrecks... but what ever... Oh and you might think I've never been in 0.0, think again, i've fought with and against some of the best people in eve. here have a cookie... _________________________________________________________
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:37:00 -
[48]
This will get worse once those pirates start shooting NPCs and then warp out, only to come back later when you've accidentally looted one of their wrecks and are criminally flagged to them, so they can blow you up.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:38:00 -
[49]
Originally by: schurem I like the gate key idea. The mechanics needed are already in, as there's quite a few mission which have locked gates, opened by keys. Have the agent issue a key. If you have to warp out, ask for another one at the agent, or maybe have him issue a couple of them. Whatever, easy to work out. Oveur, you getting this?
/SIGNED
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St Dragon
Blood Association of Dragons
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:41:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Glumpumpkin
Originally by: Ishana THE NEW SCANNING SYSTEM IS TO GOOD!!!
GUYS IM NOT INVULNERABLE ANYMORE IN MY DEADSPACE MISSION NERF SCANNING OR I SWEAR LOTS OF OTHER PLAYERS SIMILAR TO ME WILL QUIT
OH I WONT QUIT MYSELF ILL JUST COMPLAIN ON THESE FORUMS BUT I AM SURE PEOPLE WILL BE LEAVING IN DROVES
please read the 'how scanning changes affect 0.0' in my above post
You know that despite all the caps you lovingly put here that this IS a problem.
What do you think will happen when this becomes common hmmm... yep thats right people will pretty much stop doing missions. And as a lot of people love doing those missions they willl begine to feel that the devs favour the pirate gankers and will mainly decide to try some other game. -----------------------------------------------
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand |
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Vanguard Frontiers Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:42:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Kelkyen I may just be a noob, but if someone just jumps into a mission of mine, whats stopping me jumping out and letting everything gank the thief? They don't know which npc type I'd be fighing and may not have the right resists, and with all the scanner stuff and the speed somethings gotta give on their end.
The mission runner could end up with some nice loot too.
1. The 'hostile' could be cloaked 2. The 'hostile' could be using an ibis to manually shoot all spawns for full agro. after the ibis dies... well, the mission runner may not have rookie ships in his overview, will he? 3. Another player in an ibis (or a 50k executioner) can bumb the mission runner forver while he is forced to tank all spawns. Who cares if the executioner dies? --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Glumpumpkin
House Elf Liberation Front
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:44:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Ehrys Marakai
1. People will stop doing missions and start mining, flooding the market, economy in Eve collapses as there is no longer as high demand for modules (no one dying from mission running). 2. People will stop doing missions and leave the game. 3. People will stop doing missions and move to low sec. <-- This would be good, but 80% of players I doubt would be able to.
Then you have the problem, what about new players?
I honestly don't think that very much demand for modules comes from the running of missions. Once a mission is figured out, or after a player consults eve-info.com for the mission info, the risk of death is infinitesimal. Most of the death and destruction in eve comes from PvP combat in the form of empire wardecs, pirating, and 0.0 combat, but CCP is the only entity that knows well enough to make any decisions.
New players are a very important part of the game though, and I wouldn't be opposed to CCP introducing instanced missions as others have suggested in this thread, but only for those missions that benefit new players- levels 1 and 2. Beyond that players need to make the choice to either travel to lowsec alone or take the risk of a griefer coming into you mission and ganking your loot.
Higher level missions are disproportionally profitable compared to the level of risk the mission runners face while in deadspace, and I see potentially losing standings and failing the mission as acceptable risk.
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Dreamdancer
Minmatar Ceryshen Strategic Analysis Vanu Space Command
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:46:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Kelkyen I may just be a noob, but if someone just jumps into a mission of mine, whats stopping me jumping out and letting everything gank the thief? They don't know which npc type I'd be fighing and may not have the right resists, and with all the scanner stuff and the speed somethings gotta give on their end.
The mission runner could end up with some nice loot too.
When they scan you they also scan all the npc's too. So they can be ready for the type of npc. Plus most people who would do this to new players will be more skilled and be flying a ship that doesn't need to be specialized to survive in the lower level missions.
Also if you can warp out so can they. Which means all they did was force you to stop doing your mission at no risk to themselves.
We are recruiting! |
Bricktop72
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:46:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Ehrys Marakai 3. Allow people to be shot without CONCORD interference when in deadspace missions. <-- I prefer this idea.
That would just open up more griefing. Just flag people that enter other people's missions like a can theif.
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Sonlatur
Minmatar Matari Raiders
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:47:00 -
[55]
I dont get it.
Sure there is a problem in missions where you have to obtain a specific item. However, it will take a potential thief a while to find such a mission i guess.
Missions that require you to kill everything dont suffer from this. So another guy warps in and kills some of the npcs - helping you to finish quicker. Whats the problem? Its not that missions are a limited ressource...
Alright, aggroing the whole stage wouldnt be nice...
Yes, there are potential problems, but someone warping into your mission and killing half of your npcs is not one of them.
-- "Greetings fellow pod pilot. I am Sonlatur of the Sebiestor tribe and you have become a target in my war against the Evil Amarr Empire. Ransom negotiations are possible." |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:49:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Roy Batty68 Gate keys = instancing
If they implement such a solution, they need to stop promoting EVE as a "no instancing" type of game. Because for all practical purposes, there really is no difference between "instances" and "locked gate dead spaces".
If anything, CCP needs to seriously consider getting rid of the keys needed for other complexes. Not make more.
and alt, you can shove it
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:52:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Dreamdancer
Originally by: schurem I like the gate key idea. The mechanics needed are already in, as there's quite a few mission which have locked gates, opened by keys. Have the agent issue a key. If you have to warp out, ask for another one at the agent, or maybe have him issue a couple of them. Whatever, easy to work out. Oveur, you getting this?
I like the gate key idea as well, but it needs to be a use it once and all your gang mates can use it even if they get there a bit late or as what many do now, the main tanker goes in and grabs agro then other warpin to help. If each needs to have a key it'll be a pain.
Otherwise activities such as I do regularly are gonna be killed. These are I like to do lvl 4 missions and like to bring along new members of our corp to show them some big rats and to let them get some serious isk. Plus they can feel they've earned the isk by killing the frigs I'd have had to waste many cruise missiles on. If we all warp in together the NPC's agro the weakest target by default. Pop goes a new player.
So all that needs done is add a mission key and the mission leader uses it and anyone ganged with him can access the gate once it is used.
To take this a step further, have a skill such as Mission lead? Why not, there is a Lead skill for all else? and that will foster the much loved teamplay by CCP...
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Rudolf Miller
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:52:00 -
[58]
If this is not addressed, it will become a big issue. The majority of the player based is going to get very unhappy if the become common. Mission are intergral to the game. I would assume they are going to become more important when factional warfare enters the game.
You read that Eve has a mature player community. You couldn't tell that by this behavor.
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Sonlatur
Minmatar Matari Raiders
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:55:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Sonlatur on 01/12/2006 15:57:34
Originally by: Dreamdancer Sadly they aren't gonna help you kill npc's. They are gonna kill one or two and warp out. Leaving you to deal with a whole room worth of NPC's. If they wanted to kill npc's they would simply do missions themselves.
Which would then leave the whole stage aggroed i guess. True, that is a problem.
Maybe CCP can see this as an opportunity to redesign the stupid missions. Personally i think they take too long - i would be happy if they were shorter (and accordingly paid less of course).
Or just make it so that spawns that are present in the stage all aggro you - but of course, have less spawns present at the same time. This would solve the aggro-griefing problem.
-- "Greetings fellow pod pilot. I am Sonlatur of the Sebiestor tribe and you have become a target in my war against the Evil Amarr Empire. Ransom negotiations are possible." |
Roy Batty68
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:57:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Black Scorpio and alt, you can shove it
This is my main, not that it matters as far as the point in the discussion goes. But way to go on a logical, well thought out response. /clap
Just because you want to continue to feel safe in your mission dead space area does not make me wrong in my comparison to instancing.
If you want CCP to implement instancing to keep you safe, then man up and just say that. Don't lash out at me because you're too embarassed to admit it.
Originally by: Big Al
Well, if there was a law against stupidity, the server would certainly lag less.
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