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Get rid of Vulnerability Kiting

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Petrified Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 267	Posted - 2015.07.20 09:54:34 - [1] - Quote Once the Vulnerability window closes any further entosis cycles should automatically fail. The presence of this vulnerability "kiting" defeats the purpose of the vulnerability window: to allow groups to actually sleep/work/live life.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2282	Posted - 2015.07.20 11:01:06 - [2] - Quote Or you could you know, actually defend the structure. It shouldn't magically go from 90% captured to invulnerable without you doing the work. Chase them off, Entosis the structure yourself and they cease being vulnerable.
Lim Hiaret Hiaret Family 16	Posted - 2015.07.20 13:41:55 - [3] - Quote Petrified wrote: Once the Vulnerability window closes any further entosis cycles should automatically fail. The presence of this vulnerability "kiting" defeats the purpose of the vulnerability window: to allow groups to actually sleep/work/live life. Please explain: Vulnerability Kiting == starting entosis short before end of vulnerability window?
Tabyll Altol Breaking.Bad Circle-Of-Two 96	Posted - 2015.07.20 14:28:58 - [4] - Quote Please explain what you mean with that. And second of all have you tried to fight them ? they should be slower than you because of the mass. You can use ewar on everything subcapital. But that would mean you need to be active and risk something. -1 for the idea
Poranius Fisc State War Academy Caldari State 2	Posted - 2015.07.20 22:36:21 - [5] - Quote Tabyll Altol wrote: Please explain what you mean with that. And second of all have you tried to fight them ? they should be slower than you because of the mass. You can use ewar on everything subcapital. But that would mean you need to be active and risk something. -1 for the idea I think, what he is saying is that if A alliance attack B alliance towards the end of an vulnerability window, it keeps an "open session" with that entosis that will exist past the vulnerability window. and with a brute force attack, A alliance can swap active entosis links, therefore increasing the window. so, whole B alliance has their window from 00:00 - 04:00, A alliance can shift it well out of B alliance's active window. People spend months using agents to track people and supercap's to kill, so it is easily feasible that they might find a time when no one is on to defend, or maybe they get a lucky break and find a window and activate this tactic. Moving a vulnerability window a couple hours can seriously affect everyone except the power blocs. As for the Ewar works on everything sub-capitol; if you set this up, you just need enough ships to alpha Ewar before they can lock and stop your entosis pilot.
Petrified Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 267	Posted - 2015.07.20 23:11:45 - [6] - Quote Poranius Fisc wrote: Tabyll Altol wrote: Please explain what you mean with that. And second of all have you tried to fight them ? they should be slower than you because of the mass. You can use ewar on everything subcapital. But that would mean you need to be active and risk something. -1 for the idea I think, what he is saying is that if A alliance attack B alliance towards the end of an vulnerability window, it keeps an "open session" with that entosis that will exist past the vulnerability window. and with a brute force attack, A alliance can swap active entosis links, therefore increasing the window. so, whole B alliance has their window from 00:00 - 04:00, A alliance can shift it well out of B alliance's active window. People spend months using agents to track people and supercap's to kill, so it is easily feasible that they might find a time when no one is on to defend, or maybe they get a lucky break and find a window and activate this tactic. Moving a vulnerability window a couple hours can seriously affect everyone except the power blocs. As for the Ewar works on everything sub-capitol; if you set this up, you just need enough ships to alpha Ewar before they can lock and stop your entosis pilot. An excellent explanation. Thank you.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2286	Posted - 2015.07.20 23:47:26 - [7] - Quote Poranius Fisc wrote: I think, what he is saying is that if A alliance attack B alliance towards the end of an vulnerability window, it keeps an "open session" with that entosis that will exist past the vulnerability window. and with a brute force attack, A alliance can swap active entosis links, therefore increasing the window. so, whole B alliance has their window from 00:00 - 04:00, A alliance can shift it well out of B alliance's active window. People spend months using agents to track people and supercap's to kill, so it is easily feasible that they might find a time when no one is on to defend, or maybe they get a lucky break and find a window and activate this tactic. Moving a vulnerability window a couple hours can seriously affect everyone except the power blocs. As for the Ewar works on everything sub-capitol; if you set this up, you just need enough ships to alpha Ewar before they can lock and stop your entosis pilot. At which point alliance A has fairly solid control of the grid and this isn't a single troll entosis link but a significant attack, and alliance B needs to get their ass into gear and defend.
Petrified Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 267	Posted - 2015.07.21 01:37:51 - [8] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Poranius Fisc wrote: I think, what he is saying is that if A alliance attack B alliance towards the end of an vulnerability window, it keeps an "open session" with that entosis that will exist past the vulnerability window. and with a brute force attack, A alliance can swap active entosis links, therefore increasing the window. so, whole B alliance has their window from 00:00 - 04:00, A alliance can shift it well out of B alliance's active window. People spend months using agents to track people and supercap's to kill, so it is easily feasible that they might find a time when no one is on to defend, or maybe they get a lucky break and find a window and activate this tactic. Moving a vulnerability window a couple hours can seriously affect everyone except the power blocs. As for the Ewar works on everything sub-capitol; if you set this up, you just need enough ships to alpha Ewar before they can lock and stop your entosis pilot. At which point alliance A has fairly solid control of the grid and this isn't a single troll entosis link but a significant attack, and alliance B needs to get their ass into gear and defend. Or the attacker should get their act together an not attack at the end of the vulnerability period. Main issue is that the "overtime" period can be extended indefinitely, thus kitted, to the point that the defender cannot effectively defend simply because life takes precedence over the game. Sort of the reason the vulnerability window was created to begin with. While it might not be an issue for alliances with players in everytime zone, it is an issue for alliances that are more time-zone specific. If anything there needs to be a hard limit to the overtime period CCP added to prevent abuse of it.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo The Happy Meal 901	Posted - 2015.07.21 01:46:14 - [9] - Quote The Entosis links are 35m/135m depending on the tech level. If you have a problem with this tactic keep killing them. No one is going to spend billions of ISK to troll you. Wait... nevermind. There are all our dominion Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2526	Posted - 2015.07.21 02:04:14 - [10] - Quote Invulnerability should be enforced once the minimum capture time beyond the vulnerability window has passed. This allows anyone attacking late to still get one in before the deadline, but requires them to hurry or fail. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2286	Posted - 2015.07.21 03:07:38 - [11] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Invulnerability should be enforced once the minimum capture time beyond the vulnerability window has passed. This allows anyone attacking late to still get one in before the deadline, but requires them to hurry or fail. And then the situation is reversed and all a defender has to do is troll kite the attacker for 15 minutes and there is no way they can possibly win. So no, there should be no limit once a capture is started unless it's fully reversed at which point it goes invulnerable per normal. If you can't get control of the grid and finish the fight fast enough, the attacker deserves to win if you all have to log off and go home.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2526	Posted - 2015.07.21 04:19:36 - [12] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: And then the situation is reversed and all a defender has to do is troll kite the attacker for 15 minutes and there is no way they can possibly win. So no, there should be no limit once a capture is started unless it's fully reversed at which point it goes invulnerable per normal. If you can't get control of the grid and finish the fight fast enough, the attacker deserves to win if you all have to log off and go home. The attackers could have avoided that situation by attacking earlier in the window. If they commit to a fight right at the end of the invulnerability window, they should be prepared to hurry that fight along, just as the defenders are prepared to hurriedly force them away so they can get back to their normal life. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2287	Posted - 2015.07.21 04:23:55 - [13] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: The attackers could have avoided that situation by attacking earlier in the window. If they commit to a fight right at the end of the invulnerability window, they should be prepared to hurry that fight along, just as the defenders are prepared to hurriedly force them away so they can get back to their normal life. You are just advocating for a shorter vulnerability window. Since that's what it really means. 'Sorry, you can't attack during this time because you can't complete it anyway, and if you attack with 15 minutes to spare all they need to do is troll you for 15 mins'. Despite the fact that it can require over an hour of Entosis in some situations. Yea no. If they commit to holding the grid with enough alpha to take your Ewar ships off the grid instantly they are no longer dropping a single troll ship but a real fleet and you can either man up and fight them or lose the timer. If they just have a single troll ship it's easy as pie to use an Ewar frigate or something light to stop their cycles and defensively entosis it back into invulnerability. Neither situation requires a change to the mechanics.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2526	Posted - 2015.07.21 04:28:39 - [14] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: You are just advocating for a shorter vulnerability window. I didn't say much about how long a group should be allowed to go over, I only said that it should be limited. It should be limited to a reasonable amount of time. An hour seems reasonable, even two hours. Even four hours isn't entirely outside reason. If there's a four hour window to start the attack and an additional four hours after that window to finish it, then any attacking group has a maximum of eight hours and a minimum of four hours to complete the attack. That's plenty. No more is necessary. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2287	Posted - 2015.07.21 04:30:17 - [15] - Quote So if they can stop you getting defensive control of the grid back for FOUR HOURS they should lose anyway? Sorry, this all sounds like a bad argument based on 'we can't defend our stuff'.
Lugh Crow-Slave 1170	Posted - 2015.07.21 11:27:04 - [16] - Quote Doesn't this just mean a shorter vulnerability window? I have already had fights that go on for more than two hrs and that would mean max systems just have to wait you out not actively hold control over the needed grids -1 Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
Tabyll Altol Breaking.Bad Circle-Of-Two 96	Posted - 2015.07.21 14:13:32 - [17] - Quote If you stay active in your space and defend it an attacker won-¦t be able to kite it longer than 10 min. If you aren-¦t ative at the last minutes, your fault. still -1
Petrified Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 267	Posted - 2015.07.21 19:37:39 - [18] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Doesn't this just mean a shorter vulnerability window? Absolutely not. They have, at a minimum, 4 hours to establish grid control. Past that, it simply gets into bad planning on the attackers part. There is no shortening of the vulnerability window. At present, the way the situation stands, the vulnerability window can be extended to the point that there are no defenders left on the field because, well, they might have to go to work. I think people are forgetting the purpose of the vulnerability window: a compromise to allow an attacker to attempt to take space from a defender during a predictable time period. The Defender will really need to be on to defend their space while actually not having to live and breathe EVE online 24/7 - which is what vulnerability kiting effectively will force anyone to do to defend their space - even if it is one system they control.
159Pinky Under Heavy Fire Mordus Angels 23	Posted - 2015.07.21 20:18:21 - [19] - Quote Nope, just get control of the grid. And get rid of the opposing team. If you can't form in the last 15 minutes of your vulnerability window than that's your problem. They put effort into into it. So should you.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2529	Posted - 2015.07.21 23:34:10 - [20] - Quote I have changed my stance on the issue and I now believe the system is fine as-is. If the defenders can prevent the aggressors from having entosis links running even for a moment outside the vulnerability window, the structure should go invulnerable. If the defenders cannot do this, they have essentially lost the fight anyway. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Petrified Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 269	Posted - 2015.07.22 07:01:11 - [21] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: I have changed my stance on the issue and I now believe the system is fine as-is. If the defenders can prevent the aggressors from having entosis links running even for a moment outside the vulnerability window, the structure should go invulnerable. If the defenders cannot do this, they have essentially lost the fight anyway. I would chalk it up to: the defender lost to a superior force as well, but from what I understand is that the Command Nodes then spawn, not based on the initialization of the Entosis link at the end of the Vulnerability window but when, at the leisure of the attacker, they choose to initialize the final link that sets the structure into reinforce. This means that the Command Nodes can be forced to spawn no where near the defenders actual time zone. Thus vulnerability window has been effectively kitted. This has been tested with great success by my sources.
Poranius Fisc State War Academy Caldari State 4	Posted - 2015.08.08 18:18:10 - [22] - Quote Tabyll Altol wrote: Please explain what you mean with that. And second of all have you tried to fight them ? they should be slower than you because of the mass. You can use ewar on everything subcapital. But that would mean you need to be active and risk something. -1 for the idea I could take 6 skilled recon pilots and do this to any CIrcle of two system and force you to get 5 times my number on the field to stop it. Hell, I'd do it just to stations to grief.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1772	Posted - 2015.08.08 23:10:11 - [23] - Quote Poranius Fisc wrote: Tabyll Altol wrote: Please explain what you mean with that. And second of all have you tried to fight them ? they should be slower than you because of the mass. You can use ewar on everything subcapital. But that would mean you need to be active and risk something. -1 for the idea I could take 6 skilled recon pilots and do this to any CIrcle of two system and force you to get 5 times my number on the field to stop it. Hell, I'd do it just to stations to grief. Waffle. 30 to counter 6 in a single system? Utter horseshit .
Poranius Fisc State War Academy Caldari State 4	Posted - 2015.08.09 21:43:04 - [24] - Quote afkalt wrote: Poranius Fisc wrote: Tabyll Altol wrote: Please explain what you mean with that. And second of all have you tried to fight them ? they should be slower than you because of the mass. You can use ewar on everything subcapital. But that would mean you need to be active and risk something. -1 for the idea I could take 6 skilled recon pilots and do this to any CIrcle of two system and force you to get 5 times my number on the field to stop it. Hell, I'd do it just to stations to grief. Waffle. 30 to counter 6 in a single system? Utter horseshit . If you can't target the entosis Pilot, how can you stop him?
Xe'Cara'eos A Big Enough Lever 332	Posted - 2015.08.10 20:47:42 - [25] - Quote let me get this straight - if the attackers are the only ones entosising - they win and reinforce the system, if the defenders are the only ones entosising, they reinforce the system the other way the only way for them to kite you is for you to keep playing with them that said - I think the command nodes should spawn at the beginning of the original holder's vulnerability window (if they don't already?) I also think that as soon as the vulnerability window finishes, new players should not be able to activate offensive entosis links (though any previously running may continue to do so) at which point the defender only has to deal with an ever decreasing number of offensive links, and if they can't stop them all, they've lost. For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2544	Posted - 2015.08.10 20:54:04 - [26] - Quote Poranius Fisc wrote: If you can't target the entosis Pilot, how can you stop him? Smartbombs, FoF missiles, bombs. I don't think it'd work to bring in a fleet of recons because you'd be a big fat blingy target and everyone who saw your fleet head over there or has any idea you're in the area will want to bring in 5x as many T1 ships (total ship value lower than your fleet) just to pop your ships, regardless of who holds sovereignty in the place. It would only work if you could somehow amass a large enough fleet to prevent others from stopping you, and at that point it's unfeasible for everyone to be in a recon. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 170	Posted - 2015.08.10 21:42:40 - [27] - Quote Petrified wrote: Once the Vulnerability window closes any further entosis cycles should automatically fail. The presence of this vulnerability "kiting" defeats the purpose of the vulnerability window: to allow groups to actually sleep/work/live life. Yes lets get rid of one of the best things in sov warfare from the POS ping-pong era Go away and think about how much space you can realistically actively defend.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2544	Posted - 2015.08.10 22:07:12 - [28] - Quote I agree that there should be some home team advantages after the vulnerability window ends, if the structure is still vulnerable. I'd say if people vulnerability kite occasionally but the vast majority of attacks happen during the window, the system is working. But if vulnerability kiting is a frequently-used tactic, the home team needs stronger advantages during the rest of the day. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Petrified Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 271	Posted - 2015.08.10 22:47:37 - [29] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: I agree that there should be some home team advantages after the vulnerability window ends, if the structure is still vulnerable. I'd say if people vulnerability kite occasionally but the vast majority of attacks happen during the window, the system is working. But if vulnerability kiting is a frequently-used tactic, the home team needs stronger advantages during the rest of the day. I see the initial attack, the initial Entosis attack that is, as the start. The 24 hour delay between the "initial" Entosis attack that succeeds in reinforcing the structure is to allow the defender time to organize if they happen to have been attacked on an off day. Basically, the defenders chance to recover from the attack. The problem with kitting the vulnerability window is that it makes it extremely difficult for the defender to recover if the command nodes spawn outside their play time and they simply cannot be there for real life reasons. I agree that a superior force should win. But the issue is not fielding a superior force in real life but in a game. The game itself should not be competing with real life.
Kenneth Feld Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion 288	Posted - 2015.08.10 23:12:32 - [30] - Quote Defend your space I could be 58 minutes into a 60 minute RF cycle and you can take it back to zero and make it invunerable by a 10 min cycle. If this isn't worth it to you, maybe you should think about having less sov

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