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Dresden Karno Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2006.12.03 03:12:00 - [1] Edited by: Dresden Karno on 03/12/2006 03:15:57 As a mercenary alliance aligned with the Mordu's Legion, there is generally no need to declare hostilities on any alliance or corporation, but as ISS is a "neutral" entity it would be foolish to dismiss the possibility of any "misunderstanding". Excerpts from a convo with an ISS diplomat: Dresden Karno > While kill boards may prove who destroyed whom first, it is common knowledge that not all of ISS members have had neutral intentions, and have provided ship intel and locations to hostile corporations and alliances. Dresden Karno > The general feeling is that ISS has been given a free ride into many 0.0 areas due to their intentions to "civilize" space, but by no means have they held any or sufficient accountability for their recruitment policies. While this is understandable due to the need to grow, it does not excuse the losses incurred from such practices. ISS diplomat > these are all corps we are in the process of "weeding out" Dresden Karno > The sheer man power and resources to investigate every case must be staggering..and then the process of removing them ISS diplomat > the big problem is one [edited] can make life very hard for the rest of us ISS diplomat > we are in effect a no win situation as we have corps north & south and whilst I try to secure working relationships in the north other things happen in the south to undermine it. While the Mordus Angels can sympathize with the ISS plight it by no means excuses or compensates for losses incurred nor to the danger ISS pilots have presented to MOA pilots and allies. As part time residents of Pure Blind, the Mordus Angels is taking a stand against their "free ride". Dresden Karno > Perhaps when all is said and done, ISS will be that much stronger for it. ISS diplomat > I would like to hope we could discuss the issues after another month. ISS diplomat > Im comfortable with genuine reasons for standings changes, our changes are merely to safe guard inocent pilots Dresden Karno > I know, as is ours. Thank you for your time, and fly safe. ISS diplomat > thanks dres Simply stated, if these standings changes don't reflect the severity of the consequences of lackadaisical recruitment policies, then we don't know what will. While it may dip into profits or take more time, more stringent recruitment policies on every level from corporation to individual pilot is necessary. The freedom to roam around freely in 0.0 is a privilege not a right. Dresden Karno Mordus Angels Diplomat edited for spelling
Feterous Jolin Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.12.03 03:14:00 - [2] yarr and stuff
marcouk2 Gallente Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.12.03 03:50:00 - [3] Good to see that other entities have come to realise the dangers that ISS truely pose.
Silvestri FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.03 05:17:00 - [4] interesting...
Anarchist Domain	Posted - 2006.12.03 13:12:00 - [5] lol "Good to see that other entities have come to realise the dangers that ISS truely pose." You're all just targetting a god damn neutral alliance and the easiest targets. Go fight a proper PVP alliance lol. I see a load of bored pirates and you're going after an alliance who open up low sec to neutrals (who you also shoot). Make up your excuses and conjur your own ideas up as to why you need to target this alliance, but we all know you're just targetting a non-pvp alliance.
marcouk2 Gallente Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.12.03 14:17:00 - [6] Edited by: marcouk2 on 03/12/2006 14:16:47 Originally by: Anarchist Domain lol "Good to see that other entities have come to realise the dangers that ISS truely pose." You're all just targetting a god damn neutral alliance and the easiest targets. Go fight a proper PVP alliance lol. I see a load of bored pirates and you're going after an alliance who open up low sec to neutrals (who you also shoot). Make up your excuses and conjur your own ideas up as to why you need to target this alliance, but we all know you're just targetting a non-pvp alliance. And the 100+ man fleet last night was all composed of industrials and barges then heh?
Leffe MC Cubed Inc Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.03 14:49:00 - [7] Originally by: marcouk2 Good to see that other entities have come to realise the dangers that ISS truely pose. Please enlighten us. What are the dangers that ISS pose to the rest of the 0.0 community. I really would like to know.
Muad' Dib terra firma team Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.03 14:59:00 - [8] Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 03/12/2006 15:02:45 Originally by: marcouk2 Edited by: marcouk2 on 03/12/2006 14:16:47 Originally by: Anarchist Domain lol "Good to see that other entities have come to realise the dangers that ISS truely pose." You're all just targetting a god damn neutral alliance and the easiest targets. Go fight a proper PVP alliance lol. I see a load of bored pirates and you're going after an alliance who open up low sec to neutrals (who you also shoot). Make up your excuses and conjur your own ideas up as to why you need to target this alliance, but we all know you're just targetting a non-pvp alliance. And the 100+ man fleet last night was all composed of industrials and barges then heh? Ohh please, you've been hanging around P-2TTL for 2-3 days. The fact that you haven't heard that Triumvirate knocked an ISS pos into reinforced strikes me as odd; not sure what do you expect ISS to do ... wait for the POS to die ? Or maybe ISS could gather some forces to defend said POS ... gee that's a tough one.
marcouk2 Gallente Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.12.03 15:13:00 - [9] Originally by: Muad' Dib Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 03/12/2006 15:02:45 Originally by: marcouk2 Edited by: marcouk2 on 03/12/2006 14:16:47 Originally by: Anarchist Domain lol "Good to see that other entities have come to realise the dangers that ISS truely pose." You're all just targetting a god damn neutral alliance and the easiest targets. Go fight a proper PVP alliance lol. I see a load of bored pirates and you're going after an alliance who open up low sec to neutrals (who you also shoot). Make up your excuses and conjur your own ideas up as to why you need to target this alliance, but we all know you're just targetting a non-pvp alliance. And the 100+ man fleet last night was all composed of industrials and barges then heh? Ohh please, you've been hanging around P-2TTL for 2-3 days. The fact that you haven't heard that Triumvirate knocked an ISS pos into reinforced strikes me as odd; not sure what do you expect ISS to do ... wait for the POS to die ? Or maybe ISS could gather some forces to defend said POS ... gee that's a tough one. Exactly. so you're a viable pvp force. You just need some balls, high point of last night was 100 odd iss and 3 iron guys in ec and we still held the Torr gate.
Muad' Dib terra firma team Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.03 15:31:00 - [10] That's a laugh. You are trying to justify "we attack you" with "you will fight back so that's why we attack you", while I'm saying you're a hypocrit, for stating facts as you need them to justify you're actions, but not telling the whole truth. Yes, ISS will try and defend they're POS's if they are attacked, just like any other alliance, they will try and defend themselves. But ISS is not a PVP alliance, ISS is a mostly neutral entity. This however seems to "** off" most of the IRON guys I've met so far, in so far as I've ed off 3 IRON guys with Brutix + Deimos + Eagle camping Borealis yesterday. How did I dare warp to 0 and dock when i could have attacked all 3 of them in my Thorax. How dare i pick up my fights when i could just as easily just lay down. As I'm writing this, there is a IRON Curse 15km behind Borealis who is probably **ed for me warping to 0 and docking instead of just laying there and getting killed. How dare I !!!

Muad' Dib terra firma team Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.03 15:39:00 - [11] The best piece of evidence that ISS is not a PVP alliance is the IRON killboards probably. How many ships have we lost and how many have you lost ?
Spoony Brook terra firma team Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.03 15:48:00 - [12] Originally by: marcouk2 Originally by: Muad' Dib Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 03/12/2006 15:02:45 Originally by: marcouk2 Edited by: marcouk2 on 03/12/2006 14:16:47 Originally by: Anarchist Domain lol "Good to see that other entities have come to realise the dangers that ISS truely pose." You're all just targetting a god damn neutral alliance and the easiest targets. Go fight a proper PVP alliance lol. I see a load of bored pirates and you're going after an alliance who open up low sec to neutrals (who you also shoot). Make up your excuses and conjur your own ideas up as to why you need to target this alliance, but we all know you're just targetting a non-pvp alliance. And the 100+ man fleet last night was all composed of industrials and barges then heh? Ohh please, you've been hanging around P-2TTL for 2-3 days. The fact that you haven't heard that Triumvirate knocked an ISS pos into reinforced strikes me as odd; not sure what do you expect ISS to do ... wait for the POS to die ? Or maybe ISS could gather some forces to defend said POS ... gee that's a tough one. Exactly. so you're a viable pvp force. You just need some balls, high point of last night was 100 odd iss and 3 iron guys in ec and we still held the Torr gate. gathering people to protect a pos does not automaticaly make the allaince a viable pvp force, the only people in ISS you can consider that are the Navy, and you know as well as i do that ISS isn't a threat to anyone, your just looking for cheap excuses to those hauler ganks .
Mortuus Minmatar Just-fun Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.03 19:14:00 - [13] I would agree that the ISS is a threat, not through direct PvP force, but for their lack of screening and accountability for the actions of their pilots behind the scenes. You are a threat in the same was as any noob alt sitting off a gate IDing your ships, or a neutral flying around in your space gathering intel. In other words, while the goals of ISS might be noble, and even the players in control trustworthy, there is no way every one of you can be trusted to not pass along information or aid the enemy in other ways. Good luck Mordus Angels, hell...even good luck IRON... ex-Occassus Republica <3
Sgt Napalm ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.03 19:17:00 - [14] /signed
Dresden Karno Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2006.12.03 19:31:00 - [15] At this moment, I'm going to speak for myself and not for my alliance. Spoony and Maud' Dib, your indignation though while passionate as most Galnet posts, it is also unnecessary and ridiculous. Your ignorance of your own alliance further supports my point, and your "spin" on the situation whether intentional or not, doesn't detract from the failure of ISS to take responsibilty for it's actions. Leffe, to address your polite inquiry, ISS is a large organization that is currently unable to take into account the actions of all of it's members. Stated by one of your own members, "certain individuals can make life hard for the rest of [you]". These individuals become members of ISS since it allows them to be the proverbial "fly on the wall". In addition to declaring friendly relations in their bio with hostile alliances (that love to gank haulers!), this poses as a direct threat to the well being of our pilots. Though in the defense of ISS, I know this problem is being worked on and people and corporations are being "weeded out". Now this bring us to the matter at hand. What do you think it would take for an alliance of 1865 members to investigate it's own members, change it's recruitment policies, and make restitution for losses incurred due to their pilots? I know, nothing. There would be the loss of revenue by diverting resources to investigation, the ISK loss would be staggering if they were to make restitution, and a change in policy might mean more work and resources lost. I know ISS is trying to change all of that, I don't know of any corporation or alliance that is willing to concede that. But what I want to know is, "how much are they wanting to change"? We have much more important people to be shooting, but this is a matter that needs to be attended to on our home turf. We're not actively looking for ISS, but they are certainly not welcome in Pure Blind anymore. At least not until some major changes have been made. The question is, does ISS even really care and will it just be "back to business as usual"? Leffe, I don't recall if MC Cubed was part of ISS last year, but if it was, you know what I'm talking about.
Sgt Napalm ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.03 19:31:00 - [16] Originally by: marcouk2 Exactly. so you're a viable pvp force. You just need some balls, high point of last night was 100 odd iss and 3 iron guys in ec and we still held the Torr gate. Perhaps we had a different objective than to secure the gate. Securing the gate would have been very 'un-neutral' of us as it would have been unfair to those camping it. Don't you agree?
Dresden Karno Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2006.12.03 19:38:00 - [17] Originally by: Sgt Napalm Originally by: marcouk2 Exactly. so you're a viable pvp force. You just need some balls, high point of last night was 100 odd iss and 3 iron guys in ec and we still held the Torr gate. Perhaps we had a different objective than to secure the gate. Securing the gate would have been very 'un-neutral' of us as it would have been unfair to those camping it. Don't you agree? Strangely enough, I'd agree.
Horatio Nately Finis Lumen Muffins of Mayhem	Posted - 2006.12.03 19:57:00 - [18] Edited by: Horatio Nately on 03/12/2006 20:00:01 Originally by: Anarchist Domain You're all just targetting a god damn neutral alliance and the easiest targets. Go fight a proper PVP alliance lol. You're half right. About going to fight a proper PvP alliance. ISS is NOT neutral. they waive the neutral flag when it suits them, and they shoot targets of oppertuity in their OMG WE ARE LEET PVPERS blob. Further this fact that ISS has very little accountability over its members, even though they cut loose quite a bit of their fat. --------------------------------------- Originally by: Marcus TheMartin never ransom haulers though since they are eve's pinatas My opinions do not represent my corp/alliance
Muad' Dib terra firma team Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.03 21:01:00 - [19] Originally by: Dresden Karno At this moment, I'm going to speak for myself and not for my alliance. Spoony and Maud' Dib, your indignation though while passionate as most Galnet posts, it is also unnecessary and ridiculous. Your ignorance of your own alliance further supports my point, and your "spin" on the situation whether intentional or not, doesn't detract from the failure of ISS to take responsibilty for it's actions. There was some indignation - maybe you misunderstood the message, but it was certainly not adressed to you. The operation in question of which I am aware as I took part in it was to guard a POS coming out of reinforced mode, who got attacked by 6 Triumvirate Dreads. This however seems to mean for some that ISS is a big bad PVP alliance. ISS is far from a PVP alliance. I admit I am ignorant of my alliance. I joined this corp 6 days ago, just another corp in the many that form ISS. I don't know what decisions are taken at the highest level, I am ignorant in that part just like any other new member of an alliance. What I am not ignorant about is the characters present in Pure Blind and are part of ISS and those that i see in my own corp. They are not PVP centered players, in fact far from it. It's simple ... someone attacked a POS, and some of the alliance tried to defend it as best possible when it came out of reinforced mode. I heard from friends that there was a "purging of the ranks" and many corps and players got kicked out. Don't know the reasons for this, when that happened i was not part of ISS. PS: The opinions about alliances/players expressed in this post are my own and not my alliances.
Algey ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.03 23:26:00 - [20] Originally by: Horatio Nately Edited by: Horatio Nately on 03/12/2006 20:00:01 Originally by: Anarchist Domain You're all just targetting a god damn neutral alliance and the easiest targets. Go fight a proper PVP alliance lol. You're half right. About going to fight a proper PvP alliance. ISS is NOT neutral. they waive the neutral flag when it suits them, and they shoot targets of oppertuity in their OMG WE ARE LEET PVPERS blob. Further this fact that ISS has very little accountability over its members, even though they cut loose quite a bit of their fat. Please could everyone read the new ISS charter, which specifically tightens up accountability. In fact all of the complaints here are covered there. If you have a problem with ISS please immediately contact our management team, who will quickly investigate the problem and deal firmly with it.

n sx The Tidemark Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.04 08:37:00 - [21] Edited by: n sx on 04/12/2006 08:40:06 Originally by: Leffe Originally by: marcouk2 Good to see that other entities have come to realise the dangers that ISS truely pose. Please enlighten us. What are the dangers that ISS pose to the rest of the 0.0 community. I really would like to know. You're either completely new to ISS or are truly blind. IAC, as freespace advocates, much like yourselves pride ourselves and generally treasure neutrals and nearby friends operating from our infrastructure. Ultimatey its good business. The simple requirement to operate in IAC space is to refrain from being hostile towards IAC and preferably assisting us with defences of the area. Consistent offenders of IAC policy are actively hunted and station facilities removed. In that respect, additional to the fact we actively police our space technically makes it more beneficial to neutrals than ISS could even claim to be. The point that has been brought up in this thread is COMPLETELY true. In the 12 months IAC and ISS have been neighbours, the 'little' backstabs are near impossible to count, and the MONUMENTAL ones seem to happen every 6 months. We have merely turned a blind eye in the interest of keeping the peace. Your claims of absolute neutrality as you like to use when you choose in affect can facilitate the destruction of long time allies. How would you feel, if an alliance with 25+ dreads used IAC stations to siege you, one jump from two of your own and we simply allowed them to do it? Oh, add to the fact the CEO of IAC would be sitting at one of your POS' being sieged, in a pod watching. Tell me what that tastes like? .... if you can't imagine, please just ask. I'm not blatently accusing you all of being underhanded, I know for a fact some of you despise some of the backstabbing and intel sharing and know that others have left ISS because of it. There will always be those that ruin it for others, but ISS needs to take A side, and stick by it. Your consistent claim of neutrality will in the end be your destruction and this fact is becoming obvious as more and more corps and alliances turn on you. You cannot 'stay out' of the battles you choose and then fight in others without causing some kind of ripples in someone elses pond. It's not the front line policy and charter of ISS that's dangerous to fellow 0.0 inhabitants, it's the dealings that occur in the background that you're unable to police and the protection that your public policy allows. Add to that the added protection of public investors in your outposts and you've got even more of a cushion.
mrevilbe arrrrrg corp	Posted - 2006.12.04 11:06:00 - [22] Edited by: mrevilbe on 04/12/2006 11:22:29 besides the fact that i doubt MC told iss they were gonna attack iac, iss has a new charter ....in it it says - If an entity is kill-on-sight (KOS) to ISS it may be denied docking. An entity may become KOS if it repeatedly attacks ISS ships. - ISS allow pirates and fleets to dock but will respond to concerns of neighbours on docking rights. -- If an entity uses the outpost as a staging area to wage war, they may have their docking rights removed for the duration of the war. so there shouldn't be problems like that anymore personally i think they should just abandon the ec outpost...its not like it actually makes any money
Camilo Cienfuegos	Posted - 2006.12.04 13:57:00 - [23] Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 04/12/2006 14:11:53 Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 04/12/2006 14:04:58 Quote: I would agree that the ISS is a threat, not through direct PvP force, but for their lack of screening and accountability for the actions of their pilots behind the scenes. [They] are a threat in the same was as any noob alt sitting off a gate IDing your ships, or a neutral flying around in your space gathering intel. Whilst your comment about the lack of screening is wholly valid, the rest is not - I have long argued against the need for NBSI in 0.0, and the ISS operates under NRDS; this means that unless you have acted against the ISS, you will always be free to come and go as you please without fear. It is wholly preferable to the wholesale slaughter that is life in the average territorial alliance. The question that has been asked here is simple: should a civilian entity be held liable for the actions of it's members, when aforementioned actions are in breech of the entity's own terms which will result in the ejection of said members? No - Such fallacious arguments should not be sustained. A suitable analogy would be the annihilation of the UN for the actions of US soldiers in Iraqi prisons! The plain and simple truth is that from what I have read, I'm sorry to say that our friends in MOA have chosen to punish the innocent majority for the crimes of the few - These are sad days again for the north. Quote: Good to see that other entities have come to realise the dangers that ISS truely pose. From a logistical point of view, the threat of the ISS is minimal - not since the last Deklein conflict have the ISS been "used" as a staging point to mount an invasion. The only real danger is from subterfuge, and it's an argument of principles and morality! Quote: There will always be those that ruin it for others, but ISS needs to take A side, and stick by it. In many ways, I agree. Part of the problem is that the ISS have spread themselves far and wide, and so cannot reasonably "take sides" in any regional conflict - they can only defend their own. Perhaps this will merely show my naivety; To my mind, the goal of the ISS is to show the territorial alliances that there is a better way to operate in 0.0, and it can be done in harmony. It should not be the duty of the ISS to quell the conflicts that arise as a result of territorial disputes, but the responsibility of said alliances to use the ISS as an olive branch to prevent them. The bare truth of course is that inevitably an alliance will reach a point where they show "too much blue"; any target will do...
Sgt Napalm ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:15:00 - [24] Originally by: n sx Edited by: n sx on 04/12/2006 08:40:06 Originally by: Leffe Originally by: marcouk2 How would you feel, if an alliance with 25+ dreads used IAC stations to siege you, one jump from two of your own and we simply allowed them to do it? Oh, add to the fact the CEO of IAC would be sitting at one of your POS' being sieged, in a pod watching. Tell me what that tastes like? .... if you can't imagine, please just ask. If we attempt to help said 'Allies' it would be 'un-neutral' of us as we are taking a stance.
Backalley Anna Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:35:00 - [25] "The freedom to roam around freely in 0.0 is a privilege not a right." Hmm...There are those who would dispute that claim. "Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done." R.A. Heinlein
Mortuus Minmatar Just-fun Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:48:00 - [26] There are, but there are those that also fail to see that life in eve is a privelege, not a right. One we like to test people on to see if they are worthy. So far, most are not, and sometimes my gang members are not. You know who has the privilege to live, by them living. ex-Occassus Republica <3
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:43:00 - [27] Originally by: marcouk2 Exactly. so you're a viable pvp force. You just need some balls, high point of last night was 100 odd iss and 3 iron guys in ec and we still held the Torr gate. hehe iss, balls, same sentence? Only if you're talking about the lack of Yah iss is terrible at pvp, their gang leaders have the balls of a unic. They wouldn't jump a 40 man fleet into Litom cause we had 4 bs on the gate. ISS is an absolute joke, and the reason people attack you guys is because your***y s who can't back their up Manlove by Zaphod Jones**
Jimmy Doe Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:34:00 - [28] Edited by: Jimmy Doe on 04/12/2006 19:36:26 the simple fact of the matter is that we had ISS set to +10 standings with our aliance for the purposes of keeping them from being mistaken as targets. iss was to remain neutral. On many, many occasions ISS gangs in EC-P8R and 5ZXX-K have attacked our members without remorse. We run a very tight-knit unit on our side and when a target is declared to be friendly or neutral, orders are followed. we have lost a great many ships to ISS because our pilots see them as blue and ISS opens up on them. Our policy is however that if you shoot us we will return fire and punish you. I personally have been involved in many incidents where iss engaged us with no provocation and we soundly chased the gang members down and beat them. we didnt attack haulers jumping in and out, we didnt pop shuttles coming in and out, we just attacked the hostile entities. We have been trying for many many months to resolve these issues with ISS diplomatically but unfortunately ISS does not wish to do this, we only found out recently that ISS had set us to -10 because of some past transgressions that they themselves started. as ISS even says "we defend our own" well thats what we are doing. Until ISS learns to control their pilots and is willing to lay the back stabbing to rest, they will be targets and thus hunted and killed like any other. You look at me and you laugh at the noob, but look at your wallet and see that insurance the SCC just paid you for your loss
Sgt Napalm ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:51:00 - [29] Our killboard says otherwise. (Hint: It might be the company you keep)
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.12.04 21:23:00 - [30] Originally by: n sx Originally by: Sgt Napalm If we attempt to help said 'Allies' it would be 'un-neutral' of us as we are taking a stance. Well, if said 'allies' have co-existed with you, for 10 months, helping your defend your assets maintain the peace and increase business in the area it might have been in your interest to maintain that relationship rather than face the unknown of a hostile neighbour? Maybe you knew who your new neighbour was going to be? I think you've pulled that trick before flying to aid Ushra Kahn's systems in the interest of keeping friendly neighbours? Either way, your answer STINKS of ISS' selective use of foriegn policy and you said exactly what I have claimed as your major downfall. I suppose denying MC access to ISS outposts would interfere with the defense retainer that you have set in place. Let us also ignore the buyout of most of IAC's combat modules by ISS in our outposts, ISS restocking the market in the stations which MC operated from and also the confirmed intel sharing between ISS and those contracted against us at the time. Sgt Napalm, I am afraid your alliance chose a side - it just wasn't ours. That's why i keep telling you guys to shoot them! Manlove by Zaphod Jones

Dresden Karno Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2006.12.05 00:35:00 - [31] Edited by: Dresden Karno on 05/12/2006 00:36:15 Quote: The question that has been asked here is simple: should a civilian entity be held liable for the actions of it's members, when aforementioned actions are in breech of the entity's own terms which will result in the ejection of said members? Yes, it should when the failure of the organization to act in a timely manner continues hostile actions resulting in a betrayal of trust. Quote: A suitable analogy would be the annihilation of the UN for the actions of US soldiers in Iraqi prisons! If we are to use "ancient" history, then the proper analogy would be the "attempted" annhilation of the UN. Suicide bombers still killed foreigners regardless of the badge they wore. If you failed to read Camilo, we don't hunt down ISS, we just don't want them in Pure Blind where they pose a threat to us. We're taking the organization accountable since it has continually failed to prevent this problem. The innocent majority are being punished for a lack of acceptable standards, continued inaction, and either apathy or inability to commit resources to fix the problem. Quote: From a logistical point of view, the threat of the ISS is minimal - not since the last Deklein conflict have the ISS been "used" as a staging point to mount an invasion. The only real danger is from subterfuge, and it's an argument of principles and morality! Minimal? Just because a large invasion force doesn't come through every day or week, doesn't mean ships and time isn't lost. Which brings me to the most valuable part of my argument. Time. Which I will address in a minute. Quote: Perhaps this will merely show my naivety; To my mind, the goal of the ISS is to show the territorial alliances that there is a better way to operate in 0.0, and it can be done in harmony. It should not be the duty of the ISS to quell the conflicts that arise as a result of territorial disputes, but the responsibility of said alliances to use the ISS as an olive branch to prevent them. Yes it does show your naivety. This is an argument I had been saving for another person and another time, but Camilo, you like many others fail to see the most elemental aspect of life in 0.0. Time. The reason paramilitary groups fight for various regions of 0.0 space is to save time in the acquisition of resources. It doesn't take a mathematics professor to see that the acquisition of resources will always be limited by a time factor. If you have "richer" areas with resources, your time will be decreased. Alliances fight for said resources when ideologies conflict or they wish to compete for these resources. This is why your fluffy dreams of harmony are an inpracticality. NBSI prevents competition and is ideal in "held" regions. Sharing space for a more equitable distribution of resources would only be possible (your harmony) if the acquisition of resources by varied parties didn't have time conflicts. If you open the flood gates of 0.0 to NRDS at what point will there be a conflict of interest for you? The reason ISS succeeds with shared space is due to the fact that ISS mines rocks and market values while others mine bounties. But if it is to capitalize on this, it shouldn't be at the cost of other people's time. Quote: The bare truth of course is that inevitably an alliance will reach a point where they show "too much blue"; any target will do... How dare you. Just because you fail to see the logic in an argument you decide to paint things in black and white where your opinion is holier than thou? Your logic is flawed Camilo as is your passive agressive condemnation. You might as well have decided to slap me in the face. As a former corp mate you should know my character and inherently the character of the alliance I'm in. But then again, I thought I knew you better too. Good day sir! editted for spelling
Jimmy Doe Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2006.12.05 18:07:00 - [32] Edited by: Jimmy Doe on 05/12/2006 18:09:02 Originally by: Sgt Napalm Our killboard says otherwise. (Hint: It might be the company you keep) what you were under the impression that just cause you attack first you should win the fight? lol youre a noob for even thinking that one. you hae attacked us repeatedly and lost your ships for it. thats all your KB will show. and the damn word is NAIVETE`. You look at me and you laugh at the noob, but look at your wallet and see that insurance the SCC just paid you for your loss
Camilo Cienfuegos	Posted - 2006.12.05 21:24:00 - [33] Originally by: Dresden Karno We're taking the organization accountable since it has continually failed to prevent this problem. The innocent majority are being punished for a lack of acceptable standards, continued inaction, and either apathy or inability to commit resources to fix the problem. Every large organisation is encumbered by beurocracy - one cannot expect speed in that regard. Declaring that "this town ain't big enough for the both of us" is a solution to that? If your grievances are genuine there are other avenues available; you need only donate your time to it... Quote: you like many others fail to see the most elemental aspect of life in 0.0. Time. The reason paramilitary groups fight for various regions of 0.0 space is to save time in the acquisition of resources. It doesn't take a mathematics professor to see that the acquisition of resources will always be limited by a time factor. If you have "richer" areas with resources, your time will be decreased. Alliances fight for said resources when ideologies conflict or they wish to compete for these resources. ...but you have made your motives and intentions crystal clear! I thought I knew you and many of your fellow pilots at least a little better than this. It pains me to say it, as indeed it is somewhat of a slap in the face, but this stinks of expansionism and appears little more than an attempt to undermine what few civilian operations are left in what was once neutral space.
Kristoffer Amarr Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2006.12.05 23:44:00 - [34] ISS.... I applaud the Mordu's Angels for taking a stand against ISS's capitalist empire! goes back into his hole in the ground
Dresden Karno Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2006.12.06 00:37:00 - [35] Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos Originally by: Dresden Karno We're taking the organization accountable since it has continually failed to prevent this problem. The innocent majority are being punished for a lack of acceptable standards, continued inaction, and either apathy or inability to commit resources to fix the problem. Every large organisation is encumbered by beurocracy - one cannot expect speed in that regard. Declaring that "this town ain't big enough for the both of us" is a solution to that? If your grievances are genuine there are other avenues available; you need only donate your time to it... Quote: you like many others fail to see the most elemental aspect of life in 0.0. Time. The reason paramilitary groups fight for various regions of 0.0 space is to save time in the acquisition of resources. It doesn't take a mathematics professor to see that the acquisition of resources will always be limited by a time factor. If you have "richer" areas with resources, your time will be decreased. Alliances fight for said resources when ideologies conflict or they wish to compete for these resources. ...but you have made your motives and intentions crystal clear! I thought I knew you and many of your fellow pilots at least a little better than this. It pains me to say it, as indeed it is somewhat of a slap in the face, but this stinks of expansionism and appears little more than an attempt to undermine what few civilian operations are left in what was once neutral space. I must humbly apologize to you Camilo. I see now you're just remarkably ignorant. You expect us to kowtow to the great and mighty bureaucracy and give them leniency since they got too fat to deal with problems that affect others. No, I see the wisdom in giving them more time to waffle on critical issues and let my pilots die from a betrayal of trust. How could I have ever been so blind? As for for expansionism? We are a mercenary alliance that is not sustained by mining for resources. We don't claim territory, nor do we mine for a living. Therefore, we're not in competition for resources with ISS or any other corporation in Pure Blind. But that was a very "cute" attempt to try and subjugate my words to your will. You fail to see the point yet again. I have no issues with civilian operations in space, as long as it doesn't jeopardize other pilots. If you still can't see what my motives are let me spell it out for you. We require action. We're sick of being betrayed. Question my integrity again Camilo, and I'll just see you're not man enough to admit that you're wrong. Your arguments are weak since their founded on sustaining your ego and your refusal to recognize truth. So what do you do? You wail that an atrocity is occuring to garner sympathy and support. Whereas I have neither deviated nor differentiated from what I have originally stated. I have the truth of my convictions and the integrity of my character to see this through. Do you?
Camilo Cienfuegos	Posted - 2006.12.06 01:25:00 - [36] Quote: We are a mercenary alliance that is not sustained by mining for resources. We don't claim territory, nor do we mine for a living. Therefore, we're not in competition for resources with ISS or any other corporation in Pure Blind. But that was a very "cute" attempt to try and subjugate my words to your will. I'm not quoting you out of context, deliberately attempting to antagonise you nor engage in any form of propoganda war, I'm merely offering you my interpretation of what you put down here. Quote: You fail to see the point yet again. I have no issues with civilian operations in space, as long as it doesn't jeopardize other pilots. ...and you want action, I get it... Quote: Question my integrity again Camilo, and I'll just see you're not man enough to admit that you're wrong. Your arguments are weak since their founded on sustaining your ego and your refusal to recognize truth. So what do you do? You wail that an atrocity is occuring to garner sympathy and support. Whereas I have neither deviated nor differentiated from what I have originally stated. I have the truth of my convictions and the integrity of my character to see this through. Do you? ...and you're moaning about my ego? Setting ISS to KOS will not change their recruitment policies, and I doubt it would make them less inclined to stop firing. You want ISS out of Pure Blind: Who do you propose to take their place? Ever heard the phrase "Better the devil you know"?
Dresden Karno Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2006.12.06 05:10:00 - [37] Thank you. You get it. Which is a far cry from Quote: an alliance will reach a point where they show "too much blue"; any target will do... It's no walk in the park being a Mordus Angel and when someone questions your intentions, motives, and character you better believe it when we fight tooth, bit, and nail for our integrity. It may have not been your intention to antagonize, but essentially calling anyone a liar and you're bound to get a reaction. As for changing ISS policies? I'm going to continue to hope and dream, but I don't want to confuse them here. Yes, right now we don't want them in our overviews due to mistrust. From what I can see, we both have bigger fish to fry, and in all likelihood they'll probably stay out of our way since everybody knows Pure Blind is one of the most minerally poor regions in 0.0. But eventually, there will come a point, whether others join us or not, where they will have to concede to the fact that what they are doing is no longer working for everyone's interests, and changes will indeed have to be made. "If there is no struggle there is no progress." So while we're in Pure Blind, we will definitely make it a struggle for them to be here. As for who will take their place? No one. We already have new friends and allies moving up here as is. Neutrals with good references or that we have seen willing to fight pirate incursions or alliances hostile to the North. On occasion we band togther with complete strangers that are just willing to fight to keep other pilots from being ganked and fight for their home. It's just like it was when we were in New-Dawn but we're just a little older and wiser now. So why pick a devil we've always known, when there's all these cherubs waiting to sprout their wings?
Darknesss D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.12.06 23:53:00 - [38] ISS hold the station in EC for a number of reasons mainly no one else wants it. Why would they? essentially its useless. However i do agree that alot of people are using the "omg they have spies" excuse just so they can shoot something. The north is dry of targets (except for us) it only makes sense ISS are a no strings attached target. As for our reasons for attacking POS's and war deccing etc. Well they are our own, while i admit it is fun to have some easy targets that is not the overall agenda for us. But meh we shoot everyone P.S. ISS nice one defending your POS... 130 people i believe it was showed up to defend, was nice to see your as persistant as ever.
Jester87 FISKL GUARDS Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.07 17:21:00 - [39] pshhh ISS ftl. go MA!
Cadman Weyland Eternity INC.	Posted - 2006.12.07 19:20:00 - [40] As a former (however brief) ISSN pilot id say this. Ditch the outpost in EC and the baggage it brings with it. ISS should never have taken it on tbh. Concentrate on running KDF and your outposts around it. Keep at what yer good at and keep it up.

Manas The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.07 19:39:00 - [41] Yes, ISS Cassini in EC-P8R can be a PITA to run, but my corp likes the challenge. ISS persists there because the territorial powers have much better places to resource gather, but donÆt want another territorial power (or a pirate alliance) sitting there. I think even the pirate alliances prefer ISS to a NBSI territorial, because it increases the odds of more unaligned neutral carebear-y traffic. ItÆs the story of many ISS systems. TGRAD info & video here
Darknesss D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.12.07 23:34:00 - [42] Originally by: Manas Yes, ISS Cassini in EC-P8R can be a PITA to run, but my corp likes the challenge. ISS persists there because the territorial powers have much better places to resource gather, but donÆt want another territorial power (or a pirate alliance) sitting there. I think even the pirate alliances prefer ISS to a NBSI territorial, because it increases the odds of more unaligned neutral carebear-y traffic. ItÆs the story of many ISS systems. untrue, i would love someone actively hostile rather than carebears. When i want easy ganks i go low sec.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.12.08 00:50:00 - [43] I've said before I think ISS would be better off without the member corps, and I still think that. They just cause problems.
Caledric Amarr Spectral Armada Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.12.08 16:20:00 - [44] ISS has never been a true neutral alliance. They are an alliance of opportunity. They claim to be neutral yet still pirate and pick on much smaller opponets. Yes I said pirate. ISS is KOS to EE simply because they attacked us first. They killed a miner of ours in a .4 system when we first moved into the area and then ransomed his ore for 50 million (the ore was worth maybe 100k isk at best) Because of said incident and others like it (such as ISS members participating in gate camps) we have taken to the policy to not only KOS ISS but hunt them down whenever we can. The only thing neutral about ISS is their brain activity.
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.12.08 18:48:00 - [45] Originally by: Caledric ISS has never been a true neutral alliance. They are an alliance of opportunity. They claim to be neutral yet still pirate and pick on much smaller opponets. Yes I said pirate. ISS is KOS to EE simply because they attacked us first. They killed a miner of ours in a .4 system when we first moved into the area and then ransomed his ore for 50 million (the ore was worth maybe 100k isk at best) Because of said incident and others like it (such as ISS members participating in gate camps) we have taken to the policy to not only KOS ISS but hunt them down whenever we can. The only thing neutral about ISS is their brain activity. i'm waiting for some fabricated evidence about how that miner was really quite hostile Manlove by Zaphod Jones
maGz The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.12.08 22:02:00 - [46] Edited by: maGz on 08/12/2006 22:02:16 It's quite funny to see the increasing amount of threads attacking the supposed neutrality of ISS. Guess the good days are over for ISS, now that more and more people are waking up... See you soon Count. Get some balls and fight please... ____________ The Priory Killboard
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.12.08 22:09:00 - [47] Originally by: maGz Edited by: maGz on 08/12/2006 22:02:16 It's quite funny to see the increasing amount of threads attacking the supposed neutrality of ISS. Guess the good days are over for ISS, now that more and more people are waking up... See you soon Count. Get some balls and fight please... that probably won't happen, iss' battle tactic is to try and get us banned since they lack the skills to win in a fight. Manlove by Zaphod Jones
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.12.08 22:19:00 - [48] Edited by: Butter Dog on 08/12/2006 22:20:29 Originally by: Caledric ISS has never been a true neutral alliance. They are an alliance of opportunity. They claim to be neutral yet still pirate and pick on much smaller opponets. Yes I said pirate. ISS is KOS to EE simply because they attacked us first. They killed a miner of ours in a .4 system when we first moved into the area and then ransomed his ore for 50 million (the ore was worth maybe 100k isk at best) Because of said incident and others like it (such as ISS members participating in gate camps) we have taken to the policy to not only KOS ISS but hunt them down whenever we can. The only thing neutral about ISS is their brain activity. What utter crap. ISS pirating indeed. Now I've heard it all. When I was in ISS, anyone caught so much looking at a neutral the wrong way was was kicked. You can come up with whatever warped little conspiracy theories you like, but calling ISS pirates makes you look ridiculously stupid. If you've got evidence, such as the name of the agressor and the corporation he was from, present it now, or I call you a liar.
maGz The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.12.08 22:25:00 - [49] Originally by: Butter Dog What utter crap. ISS pirating indeed. Now I've heard it all. When I was in ISS, anyone caught so much looking at a neutral the wrong way was was kicked. You can come up with whatever warped little conspiracy theories you like, but calling ISS pirates makes you look ridiculously stupid. If you've got evidence, such as the name of the agressor and the corporation he was from, present it now, or I call you a liar. My eyes might be failing me but you aren't in ISS anymore are you? How would you even know how they treat neutrals atm? I know you have some or much affiliation with ISS however is it that hard to believe that you're beloved ISS are turning into the arsehats of EVE? Oh wait! Too late... ____________ The Priory Killboard
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.08 22:29:00 - [50] Go mordus! About ISS, they should clean their ranks as they aren't neutral. High-Sec/0.0 PvP Recruitment

Wylker The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.09 04:19:00 - [51] Look! Two threads with the same people bashing ISS! It's almost like, only these few people have a problem, and they arn't credible entities in the first place! Oh wait, I said "almost like", when in reality thats exactly what it is. Once again Priory is getting frustrated that the carebears have teeth and are taking it to the forums. OP, I am not trying to minimalize your concerns. I am not in ISS management, nor am I a diplomat, so I won't pretend to speak for the alliance. Frankly as far as I can tell PB is a cluster truck :) and I have no clue as to the current situation there. I can tell you this. Every single time since I have been in the alliance that a force that truely was willing to co-exist peacefully has been near ISS, a way has been found to make that happen. If everyone in this case was willing to wipe the slate clean, I think your goal of accomplishing what you want to and not wasting time or resources in a conflict against an organization that has no interests contrary to yours could be established. If you do not choose to explore that option and make an effort to make it happen I would say that you are then looking for an excuse to shoot a pilots that I am sure have less skill in the ships they are flying than your own.
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.12.09 09:48:00 - [52] uhh yah you coexist "peacefully" with your neighbors. Just like you let entities seige your neighbors from their stations and manage other people's outposts when they get forcibly taken from them. Oh forgot about how you buyout other people's markets to gouge up the price. You guys are great neighbors! Manlove by Zaphod Jones
Dresden Karno Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2006.12.10 21:09:00 - [53] Originally by: Wylker Frankly as far as I can tell PB is a cluster truck :) Yes, it can be. Near as I can tell, it always will. Originally by: Wylker I can tell you this. Every single time since I have been in the alliance that a force that truely was willing to co-exist peacefully has been near ISS, a way has been found to make that happen. Yes, a way does need to be found. It should be addressed by a diplomat or ISS management team. Since I have yet to be contacted or publicly addressed here, it seems to me that it is not a major concern of theirs whether or not their pilots die. Which, if I recall my affiliations with ISS over a year ago, they have no qualms with pilots dieing as long as business continues to run smoothly and they have already taken those corporations membership fees. Irregardless, if this does become a pressing concern, I suggest any pilot that find us podding them a nuisance, to take it up with their regional diplomat or management representative. Quote: If everyone in this case was willing to wipe the slate clean, I think your goal of accomplishing what you want to and not wasting time or resources in a conflict against an organization that has no interests contrary to yours could be established. What I'd like to see happen is for ISS to take a more active stance on my previous grievances. Since neither action nor dialogue has been brought to my attention, I feel it safe to attribute it to either apathy or ignorance. In the case of ignorance, I feel that I have delineated my point here and to an ISS diplomat, so it is merely a matter of time before it is addressed by the higher ups. In the case of apathy, it will also only be a matter of time before enough losses on their part is indicative of taking action. Quote: If you do not choose to explore that option and make an effort to make it happen I would say that you are then looking for an excuse to shoot a pilots that I am sure have less skill in the ships they are flying than your own. Every time I hear the tinge of indignation coupled with the accusation that my pilots are looking for an excuse to shoot someone I do my best to remind myself that some people are remarkably ignorant or fantastic spin control artists. Let me repeat myself once again. ISS pilots jeopardize the safety of my pilots due to general mistrust of ISS. I want actions to be taken to insure the integrity of ISS pilots, and until that time we don't want to see them in Pure Blind. The loss of ISS pilots and commerce in Pure Blind will eventually lead to management action....in theory. But like I said, management decisions in the past have yet to leave me feeling warm and fuzzy about it.
FowlPlayChiken Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.10 21:24:00 - [54] Edited by: FowlPlayChiken on 10/12/2006 21:27:03 wait, your mercenaries? and your alienating your (possibly) largest potential client base? oook then. bawk:-p p.s. glad i diddnt reccomend you to any clients. would have made me look a fool. although I have recently reccomended some people to FOFF corporation and executive outcomes. I wonder how they are doing? (OT) Just podded this sig, now where is my toy? - Wrangler
MrRogerz The Neighborhood	Posted - 2006.12.13 03:31:00 - [55] Originally by: Dresden Karno At this moment, I'm going to speak for myself and not for my alliance. Spoony and Maud' Dib, your indignation though while passionate as most Galnet posts, it is also unnecessary and ridiculous. Your ignorance of your own alliance further supports my point, and your "spin" on the situation whether intentional or not, doesn't detract from the failure of ISS to take responsibilty for it's actions. Leffe, to address your polite inquiry, ISS is a large organization that is currently unable to take into account the actions of all of it's members. Stated by one of your own members, "certain individuals can make life hard for the rest of [you]". These individuals become members of ISS since it allows them to be the proverbial "fly on the wall". In addition to declaring friendly relations in their bio with hostile alliances (that love to gank haulers!), this poses as a direct threat to the well being of our pilots. Though in the defense of ISS, I know this problem is being worked on and people and corporations are being "weeded out". Now this bring us to the matter at hand. What do you think it would take for an alliance of 1865 members to investigate it's own members, change it's recruitment policies, and make restitution for losses incurred due to their pilots? I know, nothing. There would be the loss of revenue by diverting resources to investigation, the ISK loss would be staggering if they were to make restitution, and a change in policy might mean more work and resources lost. I know ISS is trying to change all of that, I don't know of any corporation or alliance that is willing to concede that. But what I want to know is, "how much are they wanting to change"? We have much more important people to be shooting, but this is a matter that needs to be attended to on our home turf. We're not actively looking for ISS, but they are certainly not welcome in Pure Blind anymore. At least not until some major changes have been made. The question is, does ISS even really care and will it just be "back to business as usual"? Leffe, I don't recall if MC Cubed was part of ISS last year, but if it was, you know what I'm talking about. dude you're **ing retarded......it costs isk to investigate? wtf, you think this is real life politics or something you dumb **
Halafian The Graduates	Posted - 2006.12.13 05:18:00 - [56] As far as EC-P8R is concerned Mordus Angels is misinformed. Actually, as far as I can see, pretty much anywhere the OP's complaints are without foundation, which the killboards suggest. The evidence from them (both even) is that MA aggressed both first, most, and most nearly everywhere. But I live in EC every single day and have for months, so prefer to speak from personal experience there - and there, the problem has certainly never been TGRADs or ISS. Mordus Angel's member Jimmy Dye's statements about EC-P8R and ISS are false, and should be retracted.
Sienis The Flying Daggers Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.13 09:43:00 - [57] Originally by: Murukan that probably won't happen, iss' battle tactic is to try and get us banned since they lack the skills to win in a fight. noone tries to get you guys banned. and at least we dont lack the skill to behave and treat others with respect. ;) Originally by: maGz Edited by: maGz on 08/12/2006 22:02:16 It's quite funny to see the increasing amount of threads attacking the supposed neutrality of ISS. Guess the good days are over for ISS, now that more and more people are waking up... See you soon Count. Get some balls and fight please... aah seriously.... i like u guys, magz and murukan... u always make me laugh. its a pleasure to read your smacktalk while sitting in boring lectures ;)
Taikun Gallente Reaver Academy	Posted - 2006.12.13 16:37:00 - [58] Originally by: maGz How would you even know how they treat neutrals atm? Well I could enlighten folks about this question. As a ex-ISS navy fighter I can tell you how they treated me 2 days ago. I was basically given the bum rush out of ISS space when I flew back down to pick up some gear. I was given, and I quote "you have 30 seconds to leave the zone before we destroy you", and given a few shots into shields to emphasise their point. Months of ISSN service got me the great big "F" and "U" when I asked in local if I could get station access to pick up my stuff. Any neutrals (from my recent experience) in ISS space risk getting blown away first and questions asked later if you ask me. Thats is a FAR cry from the way we operated when I was flying with them 4 months ago. Despite an open ended offer to rejoin the ISSN when I came back to EvE, I have decided to write off all my gear down there as lost forever due to their current "welcoming" attitude towards neutrals in ISS space. OH... after saying all that... I still think most of this crap with the ISS is opportunistic pirates looking for an excuse to start sh*t with ISS for something to do. It was like that 4 months ago... and it is like that today. Only... ISS is starting to bite back harder than they ever did. Let the games begin. Taikun
Caesium Amarr Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.13 17:29:00 - [59] Taikun: You entered C3-, the Calico system. Being ex ISSN you should have been fully aware of the security that system has and the policy it has due to it being in LV space. No one from ISSN could confirm if you were allowed to be there. We were unable to determine if you were kicked from ISSN or left peacefully or what. As such the policies for the system were followed and you were told to leave. We did tell you to speak to James, Count or an ISSN commander. Relevant Local chat: Quote: [ 2006.12.11 23:56:23 ] Vulture Virtue > taikun, as llucan said, IAC has decleared war on us, we are now super wary of neutrals [ 2006.12.11 23:56:25 ] Leo Balthur > and this is private lv space, Taikun plz evemail james lyrus [ 2006.12.11 23:56:46 ] Taikun > Thank you Leo... that is what I was after. Cheers [ 2006.12.11 23:56:52 ] Leo Balthur > n/p [ 2006.12.11 23:56:53 ] Vulture Virtue > taikun, at this time, you must leave this space or you will be shot [ 2006.12.11 23:56:55 ] Leo Balthur > see you [ 2006.12.11 23:57:02 ] Vulture Virtue > feel free to contact james lyrus as leo says [ 2006.12.11 23:58:50 ] Vulture Virtue > taikun, you have 30 seconds to leave system, or you will be considered hostile [ 2006.12.11 23:59:14 ] Vulture Virtue > leave via qrbn and out 4p4 [ 2006.12.11 23:59:20 ] Taikun > Blow me... geeze uptight MOFO.... first day back and you're all spaz Caesium Lyrus Associates
Taikun Gallente Reaver Academy	Posted - 2006.12.13 22:29:00 - [60] Edited by: Taikun on 14/12/2006 00:02:17 Edited by: Taikun on 13/12/2006 22:48:41 Edited by: Taikun on 13/12/2006 22:32:56 Yea you did tell you to speak to James. AFTER I explained myself and requested a name to contact get get access 4 times. Also, during your polite "request" for me to leave my shields were depleting due to you jack-wholes firing at me while I was in a private conversation with somebody in zone about getting my junk out of the station. Be assured that that I won't shed a tear if THAT system and those in it get incinerated in this war. ISS has (or had) a no shoot first policy when I was there and you fools deserve to get your tails roasted and served on a platter. The rest of ISS will give as good as they get and good on em. You guys.. lets just say I hope you just take it but hard. As for any neutrals considering ISS space... until people like the above are no longer kingpin of the sandbox... avoid it. All they want to do is measure their collective probes against yours. I for one want little to do with goobs like that. This says it all: [ 2006.12.11 23:56:23 ] Vulture Virtue > taikun, as llucan said, IAC has decleared war on us, we are now super wary of neutrals Avoid ISS space if your neutral and they don't "know you". ISS space is basically closed. Taikun [Edits for spelling bleh]

Crozon Crozon Corp	Posted - 2006.12.14 00:20:00 - [61] Taikun On become part of ISS, all new members are made fully aware that C3 is NOT ISS space, it belongs to LV. ISS still maintains a policy of allowing neutrals into THEIR space, but this policy is different in C3. Some ISS corps are not even allowed into C3. I don't know how anyone can make that clearer to you.
Taikun Gallente Reaver Academy	Posted - 2006.12.14 00:49:00 - [62] Edited by: Taikun on 14/12/2006 00:55:06 Originally by: Crozon Taikun On become part of ISS, all new members are made fully aware that C3 is NOT ISS space, it belongs to LV. ISS still maintains a policy of allowing neutrals into THEIR space, but this policy is different in C3. Some ISS corps are not even allowed into C3. I don't know how anyone can make that clearer to you. C3 being part of LV is not in dispute. The actions of ISS members towards neutrals is being discused. It was mooted, I gave my recent experiences as an example. It was not LV members who attacked me. It was ISS members. Read that again Crozon. ISS members attacked me. ISS members attacked me in a system where they have docking and ratting rights. Irrespective of soverienty it is ISS patroled and protected space. I know this from the ISS Navy. How else did I get a hanger full of stuff down there? Magic? The high handed approach by those ISS members towards neutrals is a perfect example of why ISS is under the shrouds of war. I think Butterdog summed it up best with: Originally by: Butter Dog When I was in ISS, anyone caught so much looking at a neutral the wrong way was was kicked. I wasn't there for a fight. I wasn't there to do anything but gleen information on how to retrieve some gear. I announced myself openly and repectfuly inform them of my intentions. Their policy was tell me to f-off first and only after 4 requests for information did I finally recieve it which was promptly followed up by being attacked by ISS members. I am a neutral and should have NEVER been fired upon by an ISS member. Why do I know this? Because I patrolled that very space 4 months ago! ISS behaviour towards neutrals is the topic Crozon, and quite frankly... it sucks. I don't know how to make THAT any clearer to you. Taikun
Del369 Caldari Office linebackers Center for Disease Creation	Posted - 2006.12.14 01:06:00 - [63] I can think of a way, join IAC Originally by: Wrangler That is an outright lie! We don't want to discriminate anyone! We want both anti-social and social players to grief each other!
Nyphur Pillowsoft Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.14 01:18:00 - [64] Originally by: Taikun I wasn't there for a fight. I wasn't there to do anything but gleen information on how to retrieve some gear. As has been said MANY times before, LV Calico is not an ISS station, it's an LV outpost under rental to a small group of ISS corps approved by both ISS and LV. You can't even dock there. Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Taikun Gallente Reaver Academy	Posted - 2006.12.14 03:45:00 - [65] Originally by: Nyphur You can't even dock there. No **** Nyphur? Really? Guess that was why I was asking for a contact name huh? /rolls eyes ISS members attacked a non-aggressive neutral. That's all you need to know. 4 months ago I would have reported their actions and they would have been "removed" from ISS. Now it seems... ISS is nothing but full of well... vapid pilots that DESERVE the heat they are now getting. Taikun
Nyphur Pillowsoft Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.14 04:22:00 - [66] Originally by: Taikun Originally by: Nyphur You can't even dock there. No ** Nyphur? Really? Guess that was why I was asking for a contact name huh? /rolls eyes No need to troll, mate. It's not doing your credability any favours. Quote: ISS members attacked a non-aggressive neutral. That's all you need to know. No it's not. When someone reports an issue like this to me, I don't just punish for it. I would ask where the incident occured, I'd ask for a copy of the killmail, also what the attacked person was doing and what they said (if anything) in local or a private chat around the time of the incident. This incident occured in a known closed area of space during a war, not just with IAC but with Goonswarm, who have expressed wish to overthrow the LV outposts down there. Neutrals are simply not allowed to stay in the system in case one is a cyno pilot or is doing recon for Goonswarm. And since it's a deadend constellation, you must leave via the way you came in, through the QRBN gate. You knew all of this before you entered because you used to be in ISSN. I don't see a killmail on our board, could you mail me it please? If you had jumped in, requested a contact as you came to do and then left when instructed, nothing would have happened. Instead, you came in, requested a contact, swore at everyone in local ("Taikun > Blow me... geeze uptight MOFO.... ") and refused to leave. What did you expect to happen? You were warned that it would happen if you didn't leave and you chose not to leave. We simply cannot allow neutral pilots to hang about down there during a war and you know that. You knew the protocol from being in ISSN and you chose to disregard it, tell everyone to blow you and call them mother*****. Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Taikun Gallente Reaver Academy	Posted - 2006.12.14 05:58:00 - [67] Originally by: Nyphur If you had jumped in, requested a contact as you came to do and then left when instructed, nothing would have happened. What's wrong with you? This is exactly what I attempted to do. Instead my request for a contact was ignored and I was told to leave. Only after I was provided with a name and in a conversation about the posibilty of someone picking the stuff up for me via contract did some moron ISS decide to blast away at me. The only reason you don't have a kill mail is because most non-navy ISS couldn't finish a apple let alone an non-aggressive neutral. ISS policy has always been not to attack a non hostile neutral. I was no targeting anyone, I was open and honest about my intentions and was in the zone for less 5-10 min tops. Hardly "hanging around". As for accurately describing your pilot as a MOFO. Well, they were and probably still are. Ganking me while in a conversation with ISS reps is beneath low. It's deplorable and would have resulted in them getting drummed out in the past. Now you can justify this incident, spin doctor it, and blame everyone BUT your pilots actions. But the simple fact of the matter is ISS attacked a non-aggressive neutral. The arrogance of firing upon a neutral who is seeking information is staggering. It is certianly NOT the ISS I was involved with in the past. No wonder there are so many threads in these forums about ISS arrogance. My first hand experience as a neutral is just that. Arrogance. Dare I say that attitude comes from the top down? Eh Nyphur? I see Butterdog has rejoined the Navy. To that I say GOOD. Obviously he has a lot of work to do with ISS and getting them back into check. I am sure you can learn quite a bit off him. I know I did and it's didn't involve grabbin my wang and blasting away at neutrals. Taikun
Nyphur Pillowsoft Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.14 06:17:00 - [68] Originally by: Taikun Originally by: Nyphur If you had jumped in, requested a contact as you came to do and then left when instructed, nothing would have happened. What's wrong with you? You. I'm not going to repeat myself, you can just reply to that post over and over again until you get bored because I've said everything there is to say on the matter and you're simply ignoring it, repeating yourself and trolling my replies. Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Taikun Gallente Reaver Academy	Posted - 2006.12.14 07:42:00 - [69] So the moral everyone should take away from this. ISS do attack neutrals whenever and however they see fit, and do so with ISS leadership support and blessing. Thanks for clearing that up. Taikun
Belid Hagen The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.14 08:24:00 - [70] you need to put more skilpoints into reading comprehension Taikun. read nyphur's response - read it again - there you go

FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.12.14 16:49:00 - [71] Originally by: Butter Dog I've said before I think ISS would be better off without the member corps, and I still think that. They just cause problems. Butter, why do you constantly flickers in and out of ISS? What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Zhon Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2006.12.14 18:33:00 - [72] Originally by: FowlPlayChiken Although I have recently reccomended some people to FOFF corporation and executive outcomes. I wonder how they are doing? (OT) Quite Well Linkage
Nyphur Pillowsoft Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.14 19:45:00 - [73] Originally by: FireFoxx80 Butter, why do you constantly flickers in and out of ISS? Guess he wanted in on the action in the south. And he's a good fleet commander and soldier (whichever he's here to do), I'm glad he will be joining us. Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Alex SOKOLOFF Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.15 01:48:00 - [74] Hehe. Its always fun to kill unarmed ppl :D Yarrrr
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.12.15 13:54:00 - [75] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: FireFoxx80 Butter, why do you constantly flickers in and out of ISS? Guess he wanted in on the action in the south. And he's a good fleet commander and soldier (whichever he's here to do), I'm glad he will be joining us. meh ok. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Jimmy Doe Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2006.12.19 08:49:00 - [76] Edited by: Jimmy Doe on 19/12/2006 08:52:25 this is getting ludicrous, i can specifically recall 3 different situations wher ISS has attacked people who were not hostile in any way to them. twice a gang member, in my own alliance, in positive standing with ISS, was killed with no recompense by ISS, with nothing more than "oh sorry about that". i know for a fact that this pilot lost first a manticore with very nice fittings to an ISS gate camp on the Torr gate, we let our diplomat handle teh situation, the pilot was given the all clear by the camp to pass with his new ship, that they did NOT pay to replace, and when he did they popped him again. hmm sound awfully hostile to me. then again a few months ago, several alliance members were camping the Torr gate for hostiles and noob schoolers, what happened? ISS warped in snpiers and engaged the camp. i jumped my main character down from hpa to Torr just to try to settle accounts, what happened, ISS continued to engage us, so what did we do? we fought back killing several. then fought a damn good fight against Doom. Our policy in the north is this, we dont shoot till you start shooting us. then its on. ISS has done so repeatedly and are not willing to fix their status or revoke negative standings THAT WE HAD TO FIND OUT FROM ISS PILOTS! you set us to red ISS, you burn for it. Quote: Avoid ISS space if your neutral and they don't "know you". ISS space is basically closed. there is no such thing as ISS "space" they are neutral and dont own anything as much as they would like to claim so. you think you hold that outpost in EC, think again, i can assure you that with the combined efforts of all those that are tired of your crap in the north, you can quite easily lose that. You look at me and you laugh at the noob, but look at your wallet and see that insurance the SCC just paid you for your loss
xh'duality Caldari Caldari Luftwaffe Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.19 09:57:00 - [77] Do I get an Invite --------------------------------------------------- It take's 10 finger's for to smacktalk and ONLY ONE TO WIN [The all mighty "I WIN BOTTON"]
Halafian The Graduates	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:28:00 - [78] Originally by: Jimmy Doe Edited by: Jimmy Doe on 19/12/2006 08:52:25 this is getting ludicrous, i can specifically recall 3 different situations wher ISS has attacked people who were not hostile in any way to them. twice a gang member, in my own alliance, in positive standing with ISS, was killed with no recompense by ISS, with nothing more than "oh sorry about that". i know for a fact that this pilot lost first a manticore with very nice fittings to an ISS gate camp on the Torr gate, we let our diplomat handle teh situation, the pilot was given the all clear by the camp to pass with his new ship, that they did NOT pay to replace, and when he did they popped him again. hmm sound awfully hostile to me. then again a few months ago, several alliance members were camping the Torr gate for hostiles and noob schoolers, what happened? ISS warped in snpiers and engaged the camp. i jumped my main character down from hpa to Torr just to try to settle accounts, what happened, ISS continued to engage us, so what did we do? we fought back killing several. then fought a damn good fight against Doom. Our policy in the north is this, we dont shoot till you start shooting us. then its on. ISS has done so repeatedly and are not willing to fix their status or revoke negative standings THAT WE HAD TO FIND OUT FROM ISS PILOTS! you set us to red ISS, you burn for it. Quote: Avoid ISS space if your neutral and they don't "know you". ISS space is basically closed. there is no such thing as ISS "space" they are neutral and dont own anything as much as they would like to claim so. you think you hold that outpost in EC, think again, i can assure you that with the combined efforts of all those that are tired of your crap in the north, you can quite easily lose that. Jimmy Dye's account is completely false. Mordus Angels was set negative because they join gate camps hostile to ISS and shoot at ISS ships trying to reach Cassini from Torrinos. Here's the record: 8/29: Mordus Angels engages AirHawk Alliance -- a corp which was subsequently booted from ISS. They exchange battleship kills, though the first kill was Mordus Angels killing an AHE Raven. 8/29-9/1: Over the next day or so, Mordus Angels, who is joining gate camps hostile to ISS, kills 3 ISS ships with no losses: a kestrel, a crow, and a megathron. One of the ISS dead was AirHawk Alliance. Nothing more happened for months, until 12/5: Mordus Angels in company with a hostile IRON gate camp kills a TGRAD battlecruiser. And that's it -- that is the sum total of all contact between ISS and Mordus Angels in EC. 6 dead ISS, mostly from a corp that was kicked out of ISS, and months later aggression from Mordus Angels on a TGRAD battlecruiser. One single MA ship was killed in August by a corp that was kicked out of ISS. We're certainly been more aggressive lately sniping at hostile gate camps. Anyone trying to gank us at the gate should be aware of that. Expect more of the same. We'd be happy to restore good standings with Mordus Angels, but if they continue to join hostile gate camps and shoot at ISS ships trying to reach Cassini from Torrinos, then we'll shoot back. I should add that I am not an ISS diplomat and should probably keep my mouth shut. Feel free to contact Manas or Ronan to work this out with TGRADs, if you're actually serious about that.
Jimmy Doe Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2006.12.23 09:45:00 - [79] yes we frequently did and still will camp the EC/Tor gate with Iron, D2, etc, as they are allies in the north, however we do not necessarily share standings with them. provide the killmails you speak of please. You look at me and you laugh at the noob, but look at your wallet and see that insurance the SCC just paid you for your loss
Velakarando Free Traders Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.24 02:23:00 - [80] Originally by: Nyphur This incident occured in a known closed area of space during a war, not just with IAC but with Goonswarm, who have expressed wish to overthrow the LV outposts down there. Neutrals are simply not allowed to stay in the system in case one is a cyno pilot or is doing recon for Goonswarm. Does ISS act as mercenaries in a system where you run the station, but do not control it? In other words, if the system owner treats someone as red, do you treat them as red too? I'm not speaking for my corp or alliance, just seeking clarification on ISS policy.

Manas The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.24 03:35:00 - [81] Edited by: Manas on 24/12/2006 03:37:31 Originally by: Velakarando Does ISS act as mercenaries in a system where you run the station, but do not control it? In other words, if the system owner treats someone as red, do you treat them as red too? I'm not speaking for my corp or alliance, just seeking clarification on ISS policy. This was an issue (raised by D2) which caused the following to be added in our charter: Quote: Rules of engagement PRIVATE outpost systems This refers to private (alliance controlled) ISS outpost systems and territory under friendly alliance control to which ISS have been granted access - Normal ISS rules of engagements are in effect - ISS will not engage ships neutral to ISS - ISS will not report on neutral fleet (neutral to ISS) movements to the host alliance -- ISS will engage and prosecute all KOS targets from the ISS KOS list -- ISS will actively defend ISS assets in alliance controlled space. This includes ISS starbases and ships. In other words, we follow ISS KOS policy not the hosts (whomever that is). We won't act as their police force. So those getting shot have to do with ISS extingencies of war, only. TGRAD info & video here
Halafian The Graduates	Posted - 2006.12.24 15:09:00 - [82] Originally by: Jimmy Doe yes we frequently did and still will camp the EC/Tor gate with Iron, D2, etc, as they are allies in the north, however we do not necessarily share standings with them. provide the killmails you speak of please. Well, we're not allowed to post or link killmails here, ISS has a private killbard, and I'm on vacation without Eve access for a week, so I can't evemail them. Anyway, if you don't believe what I said here, I'm not sure why you'd believe whatever other information I provided. What I said was true, and you can choose to believe it or not.
Jimmy Doe Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2006.12.25 14:46:00 - [83] well for your edification i remember very well that incident on 8/29 and i know for a fact that Airhawk fired the first shot. i know this because i was sitting watching with an alt and had to jump 23 jumps in a bs to come help kill the the guys involved. You look at me and you laugh at the noob, but look at your wallet and see that insurance the SCC just paid you for your loss
Goodtime Girl Amarr Anger Management	Posted - 2006.12.27 02:20:00 - [84] So another noob alliance shoots at the ISS .......... big deal
Ronan Teisdari The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.28 01:25:00 - [85] Originally by: Jimmy Doe well for your edification i remember very well that incident on 8/29 and i know for a fact that Airhawk fired the first shot. i know this because i was sitting watching with an alt and had to jump 23 jumps in a bs to come help kill the the guys involved. I can provide the kill mails if you want. As we stated, Airhawk is no longer in ISS, and are now members of FLA. The first kill was an Airhawk member by zcinner and Jester87. zcinner then lost his Raven a few minutes later when the Airhawk fleet arrivied. There Raven was the only kill Airhawk got, while 2 losses were posted. But as we stated, we only have the information provided to us on our loss board since Airhawk is no longer in ISS.
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2007.01.02 06:03:00 - [86] Originally by: Anarchist Domain lol "Good to see that other entities have come to realise the dangers that ISS truely pose." You're all just targetting a god damn neutral alliance and the easiest targets. Go fight a proper PVP alliance lol. I see a load of bored pirates and you're going after an alliance who open up low sec to neutrals (who you also shoot). Make up your excuses and conjur your own ideas up as to why you need to target this alliance, but we all know you're just targetting a non-pvp alliance. the problem is when an member ISS provides intel to PvP allainces.
Jester87 FISKL GUARDS Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.08 06:00:00 - [87] Originally by: Halafian Edited by: Halafian on 19/12/2006 15:08:33 As a daily resident of EC for months, I have a completely different view of things than Jimmy Doe, at least as concerns EC-P8R. In my experience, MA frequently joins gate camps hostile to ISS and shoots at ISS ships trying to reach Cassini from Torrinos. Here's the record: 8/29: Mordus Angels engages AirHawk Enterprises -- a corp which was subsequently booted from ISS. They exchange battleship kills, though the first kill was Mordus Angels killing an AHE Raven. 8/29-9/1: Over the next day or so, Mordus Angels, joining gate camps hostile to ISS, kills 3 ISS ships with no losses. One of the ISS dead was AirHawk Enterprises. Nothing more happened for months, until 12/5: Mordus Angels in company with a hostile IRON gate camp kills a TGRAD ship. And that's it -- from the killboards, that is the sum total of all contact between ISS and Mordus Angels in EC. 6 dead ISS, mostly from a corp that was kicked out of ISS, and months later aggression from Mordus Angels on a TGRAD battlecruiser. One single MA ship was killed in EC in August by a corp that was kicked out of ISS. We've certainly been more aggressive lately sniping at hostile gate camps. We only do that at gate camps that are hostile to TGRADs and ISS. Anyone trying to gank us at the gate should be aware of that. We'd be happy to restore good standings with Mordus Angels, but they should stop joining hostile gate camps and shooting at ISS ships trying to reach Cassini from Torrinos. TGRADs is at heart a bunch of carebears and we're good neighbors, but we get tired of being targets for every hostile gate camp at the Tor-EC gate -- which frequently includes MA people. We'd much prefer to just do our thing at Cassini. I should add that I am not an ISS diplomat and should probably keep my mouth shut. Feel free to contact Manas or Ronan to work this out with TGRADs, if you're actually serious about that. Hahahahahah i love how I actually started this whole thing - yep, all those 8/29's and stuff was me shooting ISS in Torrinos when i was in MA. Oh boy, I remember taking down what was it? 2 ISS BShips and 1 Cruiser by myself and making it out alive... you guys are fing awful. Im setting ISS to red for me.
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.08 11:11:00 - [88] ISS pose as much threat as a paper bag. Can't wait to see what happens when they loose all of their stations. Pwnage PvP Recruitment
D2O HeavyWater Amarr Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.08 12:15:00 - [89] I was just wondering?...............Do ISS have any allies left?
0August0 Gallente The Crucible	Posted - 2007.01.09 23:09:00 - [90] Originally by: D2O HeavyWater I was just wondering?...............Do ISS have any allies left? BoB, according to IAC... . . . Regards, August

Winters Chill Amarr Scavenger Technologies	Posted - 2007.01.16 02:21:00 - [91] Edited by: Winters Chill on 16/01/2007 02:18:33 Originally by: Kaeten ISS pose as much threat as a paper bag. Can't wait to see what happens when they loose all of their stations. Exactly! ISS pose no threat. But you people keep provoking them to try and attempt to make them a threat so you can say I told you so. If ISS gets harrassed into oblivion what will happen? Nothing... They'll be alot of empty stations not making any money in Deepspace. As it is unlikely that the kind of people who capture the stations will allow anyone near them to trade and perform legitimate business. Ironic no?
Midiana Nexus Legion NxT LeveL	Posted - 2007.01.16 14:02:00 - [92] My biggest "concern" with ISS is the neutrality policy. How is the north every going to be any safer when the access point is a station system with a large bunch of "pls come in and have a pop at us all" Neutrals roaming about. The mere fact that they let hostiles through and up north makes them a valid target. I personally salute D2 for their work to make the north a safer place.
Franga Caldari ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.16 14:49:00 - [93] ISS have never been neutral. During a few campaigns to the south previous to this whole debacle at EC-PR8 we had ISS scouting around near our camps and squads warning anyone that would listen about our activities. Is that really neutral? Add to that the fact that ISS has become a cash cow for those at the top. As most of these kind of things end up being and also that ISS is just a little too unwieldy to manage. As most of these kind of things end up being. ISS tried to do to many things at once and never did any of them well. Most people end up despising you for that rather then respecting that you had a go. These comments supplied free of charge. _____________________________
Xander Magnus Caldari Wolf Enterprises	Posted - 2007.01.17 05:09:00 - [94] Originally by: Franga ISS tried to do to many things at once and never did any of them well. I look at all the build outposts and the fact that many people in EVE were able to set their first steps into 0.0 thanks to ISS and I cannot help but shake my head at your comment.
Algey ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.17 09:49:00 - [95] Originally by: Franga ISS have never been neutral. During a few campaigns to the south previous to this whole debacle at EC-PR8 we had ISS scouting around near our camps and squads warning anyone that would listen about our activities. Is that really neutral? Add to that the fact that ISS has become a cash cow for those at the top. As most of these kind of things end up being and also that ISS is just a little too unwieldy to manage. As most of these kind of things end up being. ISS tried to do to many things at once and never did any of them well. Most people end up despising you for that rather then respecting that you had a go. These comments supplied free of charge.
Franga Caldari ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:51:00 - [96] Originally by: Xander Magnus I look at all the build outposts and the fact that many people in EVE were able to set their first steps into 0.0 thanks to ISS and I cannot help but shake my head at your comment. The last post was free of charge but I may just start demanding payment with posts like that ... How on earth was it only due to ISS and their efforts? Is that the only alliance accepting applications? And to the ISS guy above ... yeah, of course we reported on your movements and the like. We've never claimed neutrality - it's not against our policy to do so. _____________________________
Algey ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.18 00:16:00 - [97] Originally by: Franga Originally by: Xander Magnus I look at all the build outposts and the fact that many people in EVE were able to set their first steps into 0.0 thanks to ISS and I cannot help but shake my head at your comment. The last post was free of charge but I may just start demanding payment with posts like that ... How on earth was it only due to ISS and their efforts? Is that the only alliance accepting applications? And to the ISS guy above ... yeah, of course we reported on your movements and the like. We've never claimed neutrality - it's not against our policy to do so. You weren't neutral at the time, we were mutual blue.
Xander Magnus Caldari Wolf Enterprises	Posted - 2007.01.18 10:45:00 - [98] Originally by: Franga How on earth was it only due to ISS and their efforts? Is that the only alliance accepting applications? Do you see me say it's ONLY due to ISS? Comprehensive reading.. Originally by: Franga And to the ISS guy above ... yeah, of course we reported on your movements and the like. We've never claimed neutrality - it's not against our policy to do so. And the truth will set you free.
D'onryu Shoqui Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.18 11:42:00 - [99] Quote: You're all just targetting a god damn neutral alliance and the easiest targets. Go fight a proper PVP alliance lol. they were so neutral they did gate camps in 0sht and u-q. makes me wonder why everyone down that way decided to gang bang them.
Franga Caldari ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.18 15:22:00 - [100] Edited by: Franga on 18/01/2007 15:21:38 Edited by: Franga on 18/01/2007 15:21:02 Originally by: Algey You weren't neutral at the time, we were mutual blue. And that changes what? Of course we're gonna make sure that the thing that it is inhibiting us is gotten rid of if at all possible, particularly when that thing wasn't supposed to be doing what it was doing in the first place. Ahhh ... read that a few times within the context of this thread and you'll eventually see that it makes sense. _____________________________ Eldo spanked my sig but I can't be bothered changing it just now.

Crozon Crozon Corp	Posted - 2007.01.19 01:01:00 - [101] Originally by: Franga Of course we're gonna make sure that the thing that it is inhibiting us is gotten rid of if at all possible, particularly when that thing wasn't supposed to be doing what it was doing in the first place. My brain is still trying to make sense of that. So, when D2 pass on intel about mutual blues to their allies it's ok, but when a rogue corp of ISS does the same (and gets kicked from the alliance as a result), it's not. Let's be fair, Trust loses an outpost to BoB/Ascn, ISS are appointed as caretakers of said outpost, paying Trust (with their agreement), as part of a public IPO. Trust reform as D2. Out of a sense of vengeance, D2 attack ISS, not BoB. ISS weren't responsible for Trust/D2's loss of EC, and were there by their agreement, however, ISS is a soft teddy bear compared to BoB. So now, D2 can't be blamed for taking on the easier foe; in fact they could be commended, for a very smart, strategical move. What they have accomplished is to take an asset that belongs to the galaxy's population at large. Everyone seems to put ISS on a huge moral pedestal, expecting them to somehow be immune from the problems that plague other alliances (rogue members etc), simply because they claimed neutrality. When, in fact, they have been the most adaptive of alliances. What other group would have changed their core principles as a result of constructive criticisms of others? None!


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