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Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
318
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Posted - 2015.07.27 03:52:56 -
[1] - Quote
All right let's face it: There are no meaningful differences between these skills. They take a significant time for new players to train, but don't offer significantly different risks or benefits, except that data loot is mostly garbage.
Yet die hard explorers feel compelled to carry and or fit both modules around, even though they result in identical minigames and mechanics.
Hell, some newer exploration sites, like Ghost Sites, don't even care which module you use!
So let's end the charade. Merge both skills into Hacking, make all current data and relic sites "hacking" sites and just make things simpler and less arbitrarily silly.
This means less arbitrary training time, fewer wasted ship midslots, and no need to explain why "archeology" is a computer hacking game. The side bonus is hacking "data" sites wont be as bad since the training and fitting requirements being halved adds some value to your day.
Give people Hacking to whichever level of the two existing skills is higher, and give them the lower skill's SP as freely distributable bonus SP. Whaddya think?
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1395
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Posted - 2015.07.27 04:09:27 -
[2] - Quote
I could get behind this idea.
While they are at it, they could also make it so that data sites do not suck. Let them drop the components to build our own implants. Then have LP stores and drops just provide BPCs for implants.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Khan Wrenth
Hedion University Amarr Empire
190
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Posted - 2015.07.27 04:32:03 -
[3] - Quote
This sounds reasonable. No change is ever perfect, as there will always be detractors, but one should always try to see the larger picture and see if something is a net good. This seems like a net good.
+1
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Banana1x
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
55
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Posted - 2015.07.27 05:15:07 -
[4] - Quote
I agree that the meta games are identical and thus could be merged. But I'd rather a better mini game be designed.
So what do we care about? 1) The mini game needs to be fun, feel unique, reward skill. It needs to feel like you're doing sciency stuff.
2) Also, it needs to expose the player to attack from other players for the duration of the mini game. Especially if they've ordered some torpedoes.
My suggestion: 1) Create a new type of probe (a data hacking probe) that you must deploy at each can (within a few thousand meters). These can't be moved or recalled and must be scooped back up - this is important, as another savvy explorer might stay cloaked until you place all the probes, then chase you off and continue where you left off.
2) The player then does a probe scan (and provided a probe is at each can) a 'terminal' will spawn where they can use the data analyser. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1399
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Posted - 2015.07.27 06:51:11 -
[5] - Quote
Banana1x wrote:I agree that the meta games are identical and thus could be merged. But I'd rather a better mini game be designed.
So what do we care about? 1) The mini game needs to be fun, feel unique, reward skill. It needs to feel like you're doing sciency stuff.
2) Also, it needs to expose the player to attack from other players for the duration of the mini game. Especially if they've ordered some torpedoes.
My suggestion: 1) Create a new type of probe (a data hacking probe) that you must deploy at each can (within a few thousand meters). These can't be moved or recalled and must be scooped back up - this is important, as another savvy explorer might stay cloaked until you place all the probes, then chase you off and continue where you left off.
2) The player then does a probe scan (and provided a probe is at each can) a 'terminal' will spawn where they can use the data analyser.
I do not see how adding more steps to the process really improves it. As someone who runs relic sites and hunts my competition, I think it is pretty well balanced. I currently have no problem killing relic ninjas - except for the most cautious ones. Whether that is by having a cloaked Astero, cloaked stealth bomber, cloaked interdictor, or warping in on them with an interdictor - the ones who are not cautious get killed. That is a system working as intended.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1399
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Posted - 2015.07.27 06:54:38 -
[6] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:All right let's face it: There are no meaningful differences between these skills. They take a significant time for new players to train, but don't offer significantly different risks or benefits, except that data loot is mostly garbage.
Yet die hard explorers feel compelled to carry and or fit both modules around, even though they result in identical minigames and mechanics.
Hell, some newer exploration sites, like Ghost Sites, don't even care which module you use!
So let's end the charade. Merge both skills into Hacking, make all current data and relic sites "hacking" sites and just make things simpler and less arbitrarily silly.
This means less arbitrary training time, fewer wasted ship midslots, and no need to explain why "archeology" is a computer hacking game. The side bonus is hacking "data" sites wont be as bad since the training and fitting requirements being halved adds some value to your day.
Give people Hacking to whichever level of the two existing skills is higher, and give them the lower skill's SP as freely distributable bonus SP. Whaddya think?
I will point out that some of the Sleeper Cache sites require you to use Data Analyzers for some cans (e.g. to turn off a damage source or deactivate a shield), while other cans require Relic Analyzers. This makes for some tactical decisions while running these sites.
Still, I would support either removing Archaeology or giving it a unique mini-game that was different from the Hacking mini-game.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1702
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Posted - 2015.07.27 07:30:36 -
[7] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:Whaddya think? Firstly: Stop babbling like a 3-years old.
Secondly: I do not think anything of this. Data site hacking and Relic site analyzing are different activities and instead of merging these into one, they should be made more distinct from each other. Advocating for less variety and distinct activities is something I will not support.
It came to my mind recently that Relic sites should never again drop skill books. Skill books, especially the 10M science books, are very valuable and add significantly to the overall reward of a site. Skill books are also basically data and code that is implanted into our brains. It would be only natural to remove them from relic sites and have them drop exclusively in Data sites, making data sites more unique and actually worth running or at least give something for cherrypickers.
Furthermore, the mini games should be different from each other. It has been suggested many times and also agreed on by CCP that the grid should not consist of only one final node, but many treasure caches. Reduce the number of cans in the sites and have only a couple with larger grids that you need to explore fully to get to the good stuff. This could be applied only to relic sites as it makes more sense in my opinion to search through lots of different rooms/corners/caches in a ruin or rubble to uncover hidden treasures than in a databank where the good stuff is basically stored in one secure vault protected by counter measures.
Lastly, I would very much like to see CCP pick up the dropped project they demonstrated in the 2012 (or was it 2013) player gathering in Berlin. They demonstrated a rough prototype of actually entering a ruins (either in person or via a drone) and maneuver through a maze grid with counter measures and obstacles towards the treasure chest.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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Banana1x
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
55
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Posted - 2015.07.27 07:31:28 -
[8] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Banana1x wrote:I agree that the meta games are identical and thus could be merged. But I'd rather a better mini game be designed.
So what do we care about? 1) The mini game needs to be fun, feel unique, reward skill. It needs to feel like you're doing sciency stuff.
2) Also, it needs to expose the player to attack from other players for the duration of the mini game. Especially if they've ordered some torpedoes.
My suggestion: 1) Create a new type of probe (a data hacking probe) that you must deploy at each can (within a few thousand meters). These can't be moved or recalled and must be scooped back up - this is important, as another savvy explorer might stay cloaked until you place all the probes, then chase you off and continue where you left off.
2) The player then does a probe scan (and provided a probe is at each can) a 'terminal' will spawn where they can use the data analyser. I do not see how adding more steps to the process really improves it. As someone who runs relic sites and hunts my competition, I think it is pretty well balanced. I currently have no problem killing relic ninjas - except for the most cautious ones. Whether that is by having a cloaked Astero, cloaked stealth bomber, cloaked interdictor, or warping in on them with an interdictor - the ones who are not cautious get killed. That is a system working as intended.
The intent wasn't to add more steps, just have a different gameplay mechanic that achieved something similar. Right now you have to go to each can and hack it, with this you have to drop a probe at each; it's not vastly different, it just adds some variety to the mini game. |
Arla Sarain
564
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Posted - 2015.07.27 09:08:55 -
[9] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:Whaddya think? Lastly, I would very much like to see CCP pick up the dropped project they demonstrated in the 2012 (or was it 2013) player gathering in Berlin. They demonstrated a rough prototype of actually entering a ruins (either in person or via a drone) and maneuver through a maze grid with counter measures and obstacles towards the treasure chest. Because that would work very well with your ship (and pod) stuck outside of your FOV (of whatever kind) and never having the opportunity to burn out of that proteus/tengu.
The difference between Relic and Data sites is verbal at best. Variety isn't as great as some preach it to be. We have "variety", and then we have Tristans, Algoses and Ishtars is just one of the many examples of how variety and rock,paper, scissor is an outdated and horribly flawed paradigm. |
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
327
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Posted - 2015.07.27 11:23:31 -
[10] - Quote
If you really wanted data sites to be different, I'd do something like add on a "deep hack" option.
So lets day for data only, when you find the core you have two options. One is attack it a d take the loot. Other option is to "deep hack." This would start a new minigame level with your current cohesion. This level would always be a red core level. If you beat it, you get twice as much loot as if you took the normal core. But if you fail, the can explodes. Basically it's a double-or-nothing gambling mechanic.
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
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Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2015.07.27 11:24:21 -
[11] - Quote
+1
Please go in either direction CCP.
Make the Archeology mini game significantly different. and... Improve the Data site drops.
OR
Merge both modules into 1, and merge the sites so that data and relic cans drop in both, basically homogenizing the value of the sites. Retool and refund SP.
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Galphii
Oberon Incorporated Get Off My Lawn
316
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Posted - 2015.07.27 11:28:42 -
[12] - Quote
+1, make it happen
"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
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Tethys Luxor
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2015.07.27 11:46:10 -
[13] - Quote
I agree, there's no point having both identical gameplay (scan & hack) requiring 2 different skills and using 2 slots on your ship. A lot of explorer do not bother to go after data sites anymore. Special data only sites are not increasing my willingness to put a data module on my ship.
Merge thoses activities or differenciate them more.
Let's also notice that since we have node's number help (which is a good mechanic) it's too easy to hack the red core cans. An increase in best cans' difficulty would be good. |
Suneai
Fredegar Hohenstaufen Corporation
23
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Posted - 2015.07.27 13:13:45 -
[14] - Quote
I'm on the side of the skills and different sites needing to be separated even further than they are, however if they don't go in that direction I agree that the skills may as well be merged into one with the data/relic hunting in its current state. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2987
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Posted - 2015.07.27 15:15:23 -
[15] - Quote
I am personally against this, they should not be folded into 1 skill/module for an overall basis. (Side note it would be nice to see a Sisters Analyzer that does both but with the stats of the T1 modules)
I would prefer to see them more distinct from one another in the mini-game.
Also i think all sites should get the Sleeper Cache treatment rather than how they are now, they should be little puzzles and mild defenses in them, scaling form easy to moderate for normal sites and leave the sleeper cache sites as the difficult ones. This would also entail merging data and relic sites into one site just like the sleeper cache sites are.
Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
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Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1225
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Posted - 2015.07.27 15:26:04 -
[16] - Quote
Sounds good, but rather combine both skills into one by adding their SP reqs together, so rank 3+rank 3 makes a rank 6, then lower T2 mod prereqs to hacking IV. Then people who used to have both to V remain true explorers (with a V-skill to show for), and the rest will realisticallly land at IV, still able to use the T2 analyzer they already have fitted. |
DaReaper
Net 7
2434
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Posted - 2015.07.27 15:27:50 -
[17] - Quote
i can support this, either merge it into one activity or make them different in a way that snot 'use this mod vs that'
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
Yes i am optimistic about eve.. i'm giving it till dec 31st 2016 before i doom n gloom
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1452
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Posted - 2015.07.27 18:16:17 -
[18] - Quote
Tethys Luxor wrote:I agree, there's no point having both identical gameplay (scan & hack) requiring 2 different skills and using 2 slots on your ship. A lot of explorer do not bother to go after data sites anymore. Special data only sites are not increasing my willingness to put a data module on my ship.
Merge thoses activities or differenciate them more.
Let's also notice that since we have node's number help (which is a good mechanic) it's too easy to hack the red core cans. An increase in best cans' difficulty would be good.
The point is that it takes up two slots and means to tackle any kind of explo site you come across you need either compromise your combat utility by fitting both mods or put yourself at greater risk waiting for a depot to spool up to swap out the module.
It doesn't really matter what the mini game is as those who get bored with such things would get bored just as quickly qith whatever replaced it. They just need to rebalance which sites contain which items to make data and relic sites equally valuable (or not depending on the loot can fairy) to make sure people can't just think "I'm going to hunt in nullsec, relic only required".
I'd rather them put any dev time spent on explo improvements into two things, amending them to contain the parts required to build factiion items from BPC's and explo escalations. |
Boba Mereel
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
3
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Posted - 2015.07.27 19:54:02 -
[19] - Quote
As a novice explorer myself, I fully support this idea. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11028
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Posted - 2015.07.27 19:59:36 -
[20] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote: instead of merging these into one, they should be made more distinct from each other. this gets my vote
=]|[=
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Dino Zavr
Shadow Owls
46
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Posted - 2015.07.27 20:27:22 -
[21] - Quote
The idea is good. My exploration ship is fit for "relic only", e.g. only relic rig, archaeology implant slot 9 and i completely skip data sites, as they really do not worth the time wasted to hack them. Even nullsec data sites are at least five times less profitable than relic sites and decreasing data goodies volume did not fix the "garbage" issue.
Who might be affected: Research alts who never undock, because Archaeology 2 (together with Survey 3) unlocks reverse-engineering science skills, while Hacking 2 (with Electronic Updates 3) unlocks T2 invention skills. The effect is minor.
Modules and Rig manufacturers and inventors, as there are both T1 & T2 modules and rigs versions, sure enough there are a plenty of well-researched BPOs for that stuff and thousands of T2 rigs stockpiled at trade hubs
Explorers who were to choose which hardwiring to be plugged into their slot 9
People who had already trained both skills to 5 (eliminating one of them is a loss of 10-14 days of training depending on remap and implants)
I'd like to see both science and salvage nodes in one site, but, please, let's make "cherrypicked" (e.g. sites with only few nodes hacked) to despawn faster in like ten minutes after warping out, or implement ghost-like model: 10 minutes to hack all you can after first warp-in (regardless if cloaked of not) before the entire site despawns. I understand this idea would grief cloaky T3 pilots who are happy to to ambush exploration frigates, but anyway, even exploration T3 ship has no chances against pvp-fitted T3. It is still possible to probe down exploration sites in advance and to locate explorer in a site. Frequently despawining sites (because someone cloaky warps into them) would probably produce additional load on servers, but, I hope that's still affordable.
Also, hardwiring slot 9 may give bonus to virus strength, while slot 10 to virus hp. |
Rayzilla Zaraki
Yin Jian Enterprises
299
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Posted - 2015.07.27 21:59:49 -
[22] - Quote
I support/endorse this product/service.
Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues.
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Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Eternal Pretorian Alliance
124
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Posted - 2015.07.27 22:01:29 -
[23] - Quote
+1, absolutely. This needs to be a thing. |
Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
48
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Posted - 2015.07.27 22:10:57 -
[24] - Quote
Seeing as CCP has overhauled exploration quite a bit and archeology/hacking still remain identical, there is zero reason for this merger to happen. Either do it, or vastly differentiate the two. Period. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1453
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Posted - 2015.07.27 22:42:55 -
[25] - Quote
Daya sites being generally poor does not mean that CCP needs to drop data hacking. It means they need to balance the sites properly. The sleeper caches are the best exploration change recentlyand that requires excellent hacking skills of both flavours to run effectively. Exploration should be extended along these lines, not cut down and simplified. |
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
347
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Posted - 2015.07.27 23:02:25 -
[26] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Daya sites being generally poor does not mean that CCP needs to drop data hacking. It means they need to balance the sites properly. The sleeper caches are the best exploration change recentlyand that requires excellent hacking skills of both flavours to run effectively. Exploration should be extended along these lines, not cut down and simplified.
All right, but in what meaningful way are using data and relic analyzers in these sites different? If they were just called Data Analyzer Alpha and Data Analyzer Beta would it be any worse?
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
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Garai Nolen
Xyjax NICE Inter-Celestial Enterprises
40
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Posted - 2015.07.27 23:42:24 -
[27] - Quote
+1 here too. Merge them, it would leave exploration in a very good place and it's a relatively simple and quick change. I don't agree with the calls here to try and differentiate them... I would rather see CCP spend a bit of that effort to improve the hacking mini game and the rest of that effort independently creating a completely new and unique pve activity separate from explo. Explo doesn't need much iteration from here or any new gimmicks really; it's a pretty solid and well-balanced activity.
EVEoj - EVE Online JavaScript library: http://eve-oj.xyjax.com/
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Sean Crees
Sean's Solo Corp
12
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Posted - 2015.07.27 23:47:15 -
[28] - Quote
+1, great idea. And because it is such a great idea i'm sure that means CCP will never do it. |
Vakarian Sammag
EVE University Ivy League
0
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Posted - 2015.07.28 00:41:19 -
[29] - Quote
Also as a novice explorer I can't say I like the merger idea. It makes more sense to me just make them more distinct of each other (different minigames instead of a two-step hacking game?) and rebalance the loot (+1 dropping skillbooks from relic sites).
To be honest, the whole idea of beating a minigame in a relic site is what *feels* wrong to me... it's a relic site, it should be more like Salvaging than Hacking itself. |
Rossi Tenmar
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
41
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Posted - 2015.07.28 00:54:03 -
[30] - Quote
No.
It gives you so much easy ISK, it should take some time to train the skills. |
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