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Chance Ravinne WiNGSPAN Delivery Services 318	Posted - 2015.07.27 03:52:56 - [1] - Quote All right let's face it: There are no meaningful differences between these skills. They take a significant time for new players to train, but don't offer significantly different risks or benefits, except that data loot is mostly garbage. Yet die hard explorers feel compelled to carry and or fit both modules around, even though they result in identical minigames and mechanics. Hell, some newer exploration sites, like Ghost Sites, don't even care which module you use! So let's end the charade. Merge both skills into Hacking, make all current data and relic sites "hacking" sites and just make things simpler and less arbitrarily silly. This means less arbitrary training time, fewer wasted ship midslots, and no need to explain why "archeology" is a computer hacking game. The side bonus is hacking "data" sites wont be as bad since the training and fitting requirements being halved adds some value to your day. Give people Hacking to whichever level of the two existing skills is higher, and give them the lower skill's SP as freely distributable bonus SP. Whaddya think? You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1395	Posted - 2015.07.27 04:09:27 - [2] - Quote I could get behind this idea. While they are at it, they could also make it so that data sites do not suck. Let them drop the components to build our own implants. Then have LP stores and drops just provide BPCs for implants. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
Khan Wrenth Hedion University Amarr Empire 190	Posted - 2015.07.27 04:32:03 - [3] - Quote This sounds reasonable. No change is ever perfect, as there will always be detractors, but one should always try to see the larger picture and see if something is a net good. This seems like a net good. +1 Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Banana1x Sudden Buggery Prolapse. 55	Posted - 2015.07.27 05:15:07 - [4] - Quote I agree that the meta games are identical and thus could be merged. But I'd rather a better mini game be designed. So what do we care about? 1) The mini game needs to be fun, feel unique, reward skill. It needs to feel like you're doing sciency stuff. 2) Also, it needs to expose the player to attack from other players for the duration of the mini game. Especially if they've ordered some torpedoes. My suggestion: 1) Create a new type of probe (a data hacking probe) that you must deploy at each can (within a few thousand meters). These can't be moved or recalled and must be scooped back up - this is important, as another savvy explorer might stay cloaked until you place all the probes, then chase you off and continue where you left off. 2) The player then does a probe scan (and provided a probe is at each can) a 'terminal' will spawn where they can use the data analyser.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1399	Posted - 2015.07.27 06:51:11 - [5] - Quote Banana1x wrote: I agree that the meta games are identical and thus could be merged. But I'd rather a better mini game be designed. So what do we care about? 1) The mini game needs to be fun, feel unique, reward skill. It needs to feel like you're doing sciency stuff. 2) Also, it needs to expose the player to attack from other players for the duration of the mini game. Especially if they've ordered some torpedoes. My suggestion: 1) Create a new type of probe (a data hacking probe) that you must deploy at each can (within a few thousand meters). These can't be moved or recalled and must be scooped back up - this is important, as another savvy explorer might stay cloaked until you place all the probes, then chase you off and continue where you left off. 2) The player then does a probe scan (and provided a probe is at each can) a 'terminal' will spawn where they can use the data analyser. I do not see how adding more steps to the process really improves it. As someone who runs relic sites and hunts my competition, I think it is pretty well balanced. I currently have no problem killing relic ninjas - except for the most cautious ones. Whether that is by having a cloaked Astero, cloaked stealth bomber, cloaked interdictor, or warping in on them with an interdictor - the ones who are not cautious get killed. That is a system working as intended. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1399	Posted - 2015.07.27 06:54:38 - [6] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: All right let's face it: There are no meaningful differences between these skills. They take a significant time for new players to train, but don't offer significantly different risks or benefits, except that data loot is mostly garbage. Yet die hard explorers feel compelled to carry and or fit both modules around, even though they result in identical minigames and mechanics. Hell, some newer exploration sites, like Ghost Sites, don't even care which module you use! So let's end the charade. Merge both skills into Hacking, make all current data and relic sites "hacking" sites and just make things simpler and less arbitrarily silly. This means less arbitrary training time, fewer wasted ship midslots, and no need to explain why "archeology" is a computer hacking game. The side bonus is hacking "data" sites wont be as bad since the training and fitting requirements being halved adds some value to your day. Give people Hacking to whichever level of the two existing skills is higher, and give them the lower skill's SP as freely distributable bonus SP. Whaddya think? I will point out that some of the Sleeper Cache sites require you to use Data Analyzers for some cans (e.g. to turn off a damage source or deactivate a shield), while other cans require Relic Analyzers. This makes for some tactical decisions while running these sites. Still, I would support either removing Archaeology or giving it a unique mini-game that was different from the Hacking mini-game. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
Rivr Luzade Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi 1702	Posted - 2015.07.27 07:30:36 - [7] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: Whaddya think? Firstly: Stop babbling like a 3-years old. Secondly: I do not think anything of this. Data site hacking and Relic site analyzing are different activities and instead of merging these into one, they should be made more distinct from each other. Advocating for less variety and distinct activities is something I will not support. It came to my mind recently that Relic sites should never again drop skill books. Skill books, especially the 10M science books, are very valuable and add significantly to the overall reward of a site. Skill books are also basically data and code that is implanted into our brains. It would be only natural to remove them from relic sites and have them drop exclusively in Data sites, making data sites more unique and actually worth running or at least give something for cherrypickers. Furthermore, the mini games should be different from each other. It has been suggested many times and also agreed on by CCP that the grid should not consist of only one final node, but many treasure caches. Reduce the number of cans in the sites and have only a couple with larger grids that you need to explore fully to get to the good stuff. This could be applied only to relic sites as it makes more sense in my opinion to search through lots of different rooms/corners/caches in a ruin or rubble to uncover hidden treasures than in a databank where the good stuff is basically stored in one secure vault protected by counter measures. Lastly, I would very much like to see CCP pick up the dropped project they demonstrated in the 2012 (or was it 2013) player gathering in Berlin. They demonstrated a rough prototype of actually entering a ruins (either in person or via a drone) and maneuver through a maze grid with counter measures and obstacles towards the treasure chest. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Banana1x Sudden Buggery Prolapse. 55	Posted - 2015.07.27 07:31:28 - [8] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Banana1x wrote: I agree that the meta games are identical and thus could be merged. But I'd rather a better mini game be designed. So what do we care about? 1) The mini game needs to be fun, feel unique, reward skill. It needs to feel like you're doing sciency stuff. 2) Also, it needs to expose the player to attack from other players for the duration of the mini game. Especially if they've ordered some torpedoes. My suggestion: 1) Create a new type of probe (a data hacking probe) that you must deploy at each can (within a few thousand meters). These can't be moved or recalled and must be scooped back up - this is important, as another savvy explorer might stay cloaked until you place all the probes, then chase you off and continue where you left off. 2) The player then does a probe scan (and provided a probe is at each can) a 'terminal' will spawn where they can use the data analyser. I do not see how adding more steps to the process really improves it. As someone who runs relic sites and hunts my competition, I think it is pretty well balanced. I currently have no problem killing relic ninjas - except for the most cautious ones. Whether that is by having a cloaked Astero, cloaked stealth bomber, cloaked interdictor, or warping in on them with an interdictor - the ones who are not cautious get killed. That is a system working as intended. The intent wasn't to add more steps, just have a different gameplay mechanic that achieved something similar. Right now you have to go to each can and hack it, with this you have to drop a probe at each; it's not vastly different, it just adds some variety to the mini game.
Arla Sarain 564	Posted - 2015.07.27 09:08:55 - [9] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Chance Ravinne wrote: Whaddya think? Lastly, I would very much like to see CCP pick up the dropped project they demonstrated in the 2012 (or was it 2013) player gathering in Berlin. They demonstrated a rough prototype of actually entering a ruins (either in person or via a drone) and maneuver through a maze grid with counter measures and obstacles towards the treasure chest. Because that would work very well with your ship (and pod) stuck outside of your FOV (of whatever kind) and never having the opportunity to burn out of that proteus/tengu. The difference between Relic and Data sites is verbal at best. Variety isn't as great as some preach it to be. We have "variety", and then we have Tristans, Algoses and Ishtars is just one of the many examples of how variety and rock,paper, scissor is an outdated and horribly flawed paradigm.
Chance Ravinne WiNGSPAN Delivery Services 327	Posted - 2015.07.27 11:23:31 - [10] - Quote If you really wanted data sites to be different, I'd do something like add on a "deep hack" option. So lets day for data only, when you find the core you have two options. One is attack it a d take the loot. Other option is to "deep hack." This would start a new minigame level with your current cohesion. This level would always be a red core level. If you beat it, you get twice as much loot as if you took the normal core. But if you fail, the can explodes. Basically it's a double-or-nothing gambling mechanic. You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT

Kasia en Tilavine School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 12	Posted - 2015.07.27 11:24:21 - [11] - Quote +1 Please go in either direction CCP. Make the Archeology mini game significantly different. and... Improve the Data site drops. OR Merge both modules into 1, and merge the sites so that data and relic cans drop in both, basically homogenizing the value of the sites. Retool and refund SP.
Galphii Oberon Incorporated Get Off My Lawn 316	Posted - 2015.07.27 11:28:42 - [12] - Quote +1, make it happen "Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Tethys Luxor Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 7	Posted - 2015.07.27 11:46:10 - [13] - Quote I agree, there's no point having both identical gameplay (scan & hack) requiring 2 different skills and using 2 slots on your ship. A lot of explorer do not bother to go after data sites anymore. Special data only sites are not increasing my willingness to put a data module on my ship. Merge thoses activities or differenciate them more. Let's also notice that since we have node's number help (which is a good mechanic) it's too easy to hack the red core cans. An increase in best cans' difficulty would be good.
Suneai Fredegar Hohenstaufen Corporation 23	Posted - 2015.07.27 13:13:45 - [14] - Quote I'm on the side of the skills and different sites needing to be separated even further than they are, however if they don't go in that direction I agree that the skills may as well be merged into one with the data/relic hunting in its current state.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2987	Posted - 2015.07.27 15:15:23 - [15] - Quote I am personally against this, they should not be folded into 1 skill/module for an overall basis. (Side note it would be nice to see a Sisters Analyzer that does both but with the stats of the T1 modules) I would prefer to see them more distinct from one another in the mini-game. Also i think all sites should get the Sleeper Cache treatment rather than how they are now, they should be little puzzles and mild defenses in them, scaling form easy to moderate for normal sites and leave the sleeper cache sites as the difficult ones. This would also entail merging data and relic sites into one site just like the sleeper cache sites are. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Lloyd Roses Artificial Memories 1225	Posted - 2015.07.27 15:26:04 - [16] - Quote Sounds good, but rather combine both skills into one by adding their SP reqs together, so rank 3+rank 3 makes a rank 6, then lower T2 mod prereqs to hacking IV. Then people who used to have both to V remain true explorers (with a V-skill to show for), and the rest will realisticallly land at IV, still able to use the T2 analyzer they already have fitted.
DaReaper Net 7 2434	Posted - 2015.07.27 15:27:50 - [17] - Quote i can support this, either merge it into one activity or make them different in a way that snot 'use this mod vs that' OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining! Yes i am optimistic about eve.. i'm giving it till dec 31st 2016 before i doom n gloom
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1452	Posted - 2015.07.27 18:16:17 - [18] - Quote Tethys Luxor wrote: I agree, there's no point having both identical gameplay (scan & hack) requiring 2 different skills and using 2 slots on your ship. A lot of explorer do not bother to go after data sites anymore. Special data only sites are not increasing my willingness to put a data module on my ship. Merge thoses activities or differenciate them more. Let's also notice that since we have node's number help (which is a good mechanic) it's too easy to hack the red core cans. An increase in best cans' difficulty would be good. The point is that it takes up two slots and means to tackle any kind of explo site you come across you need either compromise your combat utility by fitting both mods or put yourself at greater risk waiting for a depot to spool up to swap out the module. It doesn't really matter what the mini game is as those who get bored with such things would get bored just as quickly qith whatever replaced it. They just need to rebalance which sites contain which items to make data and relic sites equally valuable (or not depending on the loot can fairy) to make sure people can't just think "I'm going to hunt in nullsec, relic only required". I'd rather them put any dev time spent on explo improvements into two things, amending them to contain the parts required to build factiion items from BPC's and explo escalations.
Boba Mereel Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 3	Posted - 2015.07.27 19:54:02 - [19] - Quote As a novice explorer myself, I fully support this idea.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 11028	Posted - 2015.07.27 19:59:36 - [20] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: instead of merging these into one, they should be made more distinct from each other. this gets my vote =]\|[=

Dino Zavr Shadow Owls 46	Posted - 2015.07.27 20:27:22 - [21] - Quote The idea is good. My exploration ship is fit for "relic only", e.g. only relic rig, archaeology implant slot 9 and i completely skip data sites, as they really do not worth the time wasted to hack them. Even nullsec data sites are at least five times less profitable than relic sites and decreasing data goodies volume did not fix the "garbage" issue. Who might be affected: Research alts who never undock, because Archaeology 2 (together with Survey 3) unlocks reverse-engineering science skills, while Hacking 2 (with Electronic Updates 3) unlocks T2 invention skills. The effect is minor. Modules and Rig manufacturers and inventors, as there are both T1 & T2 modules and rigs versions, sure enough there are a plenty of well-researched BPOs for that stuff and thousands of T2 rigs stockpiled at trade hubs Explorers who were to choose which hardwiring to be plugged into their slot 9 People who had already trained both skills to 5 (eliminating one of them is a loss of 10-14 days of training depending on remap and implants) I'd like to see both science and salvage nodes in one site, but, please, let's make "cherrypicked" (e.g. sites with only few nodes hacked) to despawn faster in like ten minutes after warping out, or implement ghost-like model: 10 minutes to hack all you can after first warp-in (regardless if cloaked of not) before the entire site despawns. I understand this idea would grief cloaky T3 pilots who are happy to to ambush exploration frigates, but anyway, even exploration T3 ship has no chances against pvp-fitted T3. It is still possible to probe down exploration sites in advance and to locate explorer in a site. Frequently despawining sites (because someone cloaky warps into them) would probably produce additional load on servers, but, I hope that's still affordable. Also, hardwiring slot 9 may give bonus to virus strength, while slot 10 to virus hp.
Rayzilla Zaraki Yin Jian Enterprises 299	Posted - 2015.07.27 21:59:49 - [22] - Quote I support/endorse this product/service. Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues.
Murkar Omaristos The Alabaster Albatross Eternal Pretorian Alliance 124	Posted - 2015.07.27 22:01:29 - [23] - Quote +1, absolutely. This needs to be a thing.
Zepheros Naeonis TinklePee 48	Posted - 2015.07.27 22:10:57 - [24] - Quote Seeing as CCP has overhauled exploration quite a bit and archeology/hacking still remain identical, there is zero reason for this merger to happen. Either do it, or vastly differentiate the two. Period.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1453	Posted - 2015.07.27 22:42:55 - [25] - Quote Daya sites being generally poor does not mean that CCP needs to drop data hacking. It means they need to balance the sites properly. The sleeper caches are the best exploration change recentlyand that requires excellent hacking skills of both flavours to run effectively. Exploration should be extended along these lines, not cut down and simplified.
Chance Ravinne WiNGSPAN Delivery Services 347	Posted - 2015.07.27 23:02:25 - [26] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Daya sites being generally poor does not mean that CCP needs to drop data hacking. It means they need to balance the sites properly. The sleeper caches are the best exploration change recentlyand that requires excellent hacking skills of both flavours to run effectively. Exploration should be extended along these lines, not cut down and simplified. All right, but in what meaningful way are using data and relic analyzers in these sites different? If they were just called Data Analyzer Alpha and Data Analyzer Beta would it be any worse? You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Garai Nolen Xyjax NICE Inter-Celestial Enterprises 40	Posted - 2015.07.27 23:42:24 - [27] - Quote +1 here too. Merge them, it would leave exploration in a very good place and it's a relatively simple and quick change. I don't agree with the calls here to try and differentiate them... I would rather see CCP spend a bit of that effort to improve the hacking mini game and the rest of that effort independently creating a completely new and unique pve activity separate from explo. Explo doesn't need much iteration from here or any new gimmicks really; it's a pretty solid and well-balanced activity. EVEoj - EVE Online JavaScript library: http://eve-oj.xyjax.com/
Sean Crees Sean's Solo Corp 12	Posted - 2015.07.27 23:47:15 - [28] - Quote +1, great idea. And because it is such a great idea i'm sure that means CCP will never do it.
Vakarian Sammag EVE University Ivy League 0	Posted - 2015.07.28 00:41:19 - [29] - Quote Also as a novice explorer I can't say I like the merger idea. It makes more sense to me just make them more distinct of each other (different minigames instead of a two-step hacking game?) and rebalance the loot (+1 dropping skillbooks from relic sites). To be honest, the whole idea of beating a minigame in a relic site is what feels wrong to me... it's a relic site, it should be more like Salvaging than Hacking itself.
Rossi Tenmar Decadence. RAZOR Alliance 41	Posted - 2015.07.28 00:54:03 - [30] - Quote No. It gives you so much easy ISK, it should take some time to train the skills.

CorryBasler Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion 90	Posted - 2015.07.28 01:02:10 - [31] - Quote +1 from me. Ive never personally done any of these things described, but it seems to make sense to combine them given the points given.
Garai Nolen Xyjax NICE Inter-Celestial Enterprises 40	Posted - 2015.07.28 01:02:22 - [32] - Quote Rossi Tenmar wrote: No. It gives you so much easy ISK, it should take some time to train the skills. Arch is already a x3 train that you need at V to run a t2 analyzer. Data sites are currently bad enough that no one wastes time currently training Hacking to V. Merging these would do nothing to change the average train time of the average explorer pulling average income. And if it's that bothersome then make the merged Arch/Hacking skill a x5, merge the total SP of both individual skills to migrate a char, and refund any leftover, which would malcanize this change and screw newbs which seems to be the only way to get bittervets on board. EVEoj - EVE Online JavaScript library: http://eve-oj.xyjax.com/
Max Groote Aliastra Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.28 01:14:35 - [33] - Quote I disagree, it would be more impactful to actually make the archaeology minigame substantially different from hacking rather than simply removing half of the surveying skills and modules.
Sakey Isu Respawn Disabled Initiative Mercenaries 0	Posted - 2015.07.28 01:51:44 - [34] - Quote +1 I agree make it easier for new players to make some income.
Chance Ravinne WiNGSPAN Delivery Services 354	Posted - 2015.07.28 01:55:50 - [35] - Quote Rossi Tenmar wrote: No. It gives you so much easy ISK, it should take some time to train the skills. Yes, "data sites make too much ISK" is the complaint of many an explorer. You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2989	Posted - 2015.07.28 02:04:14 - [36] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: Rossi Tenmar wrote: No. It gives you so much easy ISK, it should take some time to train the skills. Yes, "data sites make too much ISK" is the complaint of many an explorer. That may be true but lowering the bar devalues the sites even more than current. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Ransu Asanari AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 301	Posted - 2015.07.28 02:19:21 - [37] - Quote Short Answer No, we don't need to merge these skills, or remove one branch. In fact, it wouldn't be worth the effort to do this. Long Answer There is a lot of complexity in the current system which is good. As others have pointed out, we have hard fitting choices when needing to fit both modules onto ships, we have T1 and T2 module and rig manufacturing, and different implants. The skill progression for Hacking and Archaeology is fairly shallow as well. I don't think it's beneficial to remove one of the skills and make the skill progression even more shallow. There is only the one skill for each Hacking and Archaeology to train to 5, and then you're done. There's no "Advanced" skill tree, or additional supplementary skills needed. We could even add in a skill, such as one that gives you more range to your hacking module. There is no need to give newbies a break, as a lot of the exploration sites can be done with a T1 hacking module and low skills. Yes, the basic frigate skill is needed, cloaking, and scanning skills. But when you compare this to the depth of SP investment for mining (for example) to get to an Exhumer with T2 Strip Mining and Ice Lasers, you can see where the investment for Hacking/Archaeology really isn't that much. On top of that, the Astero/Stratios have made it easier to get into decently bonused ships much faster than having to train Frigate 5 and then Covert Ops. CCP have cleverly created a new tier of exploration with the Sleeper Cache sites where it requires Hacking and Archaology 5 to leverage the SP investment , as well as very good scanning skills to access them. This puts a higher SP bar to access and complete these sites, as well as the more difficult ones requiring very good tanking skills, as well as Cruiser level ships such as a Stratios or T3 Cruiser. The new Covert and Besieged Covert sites added also require one of the modules, as well as a good tank and DPS (in the case of defeating the Mordu's Legion ships). On top of this we have the new Drifter Complexes which require two teams equipped with Data Analyzers to access the central Hive. This is probably more to CCP's intent in Odyssey with the "loot spew" (now removed) where they wanted Exploration activities that encouraged teamwork. When you look at the effort involved in removing one of the modules, industry components, the skills, and modifying all of the sites - I just don't see the benefit to us as a result of this effort on the part of CCP. More details on what actual changes we could use in next post.
Ransu Asanari AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 301	Posted - 2015.07.28 02:21:03 - [38] - Quote The problem is really twofold - the Data Sites currently don't have a comparable loot value to Relic Sites, and the Faction Sites and hacking minigame are uninteresting. Lets take this one at a time. 1. Many of us have commented on the problems with the Data site values and the need for changes. Team Space Glitter attempted to fix some of the problems in Phoebe, and made some good quality of life changes, like reducing the size of most of the drops, but the value of the site is still low compared to Relic Sites. I've outlined my thoughts in detail here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=422641&p=2 Data Sites are really going to have to be looked at closely before the new Citadel Structures are introduced, and given a very clear direction. A lot of the rare loot drops in Data/Relic sites are from the Faction POS towers and module drops, and these will eventually be phased out for Citadels. In addition, CCP already mentioned at Fanfest that they wanted to revisit how datacores are generated - potentially tying them to research facilities in citadels rather than coming from Data Sites, Faction Warfare, and Research Agents. That really only leaves Decryptors as the unique drop for Data sites, and they aren't rare or significantly valuable in most cases. I'd suggest looking closely at making Data Sites - from the Faction Data Sites, Wormhole Sleeper Data Sites, and Limited Sleeper Cache sites all contain components for building Citadel components and structures. All of the Industrial Goods (High-Tech Data Chip) and the neglected Faction Materials (Electric Conduit) could become manufacturing components for the Citadels. On top of this, Sleeper Relic and Data Sites need a hard look at a loot balance pass. Most of the value is from the blue loot from the combat, but there is nothing unique in the Sleeper Data Sites that you currently need to hack to obtain. The Sleeper Relic Sites have the Ancient Relics needed to reverse engineer T3 Subsystems, but they aren't worth much etiher (a separate problem). I'd suggest removing the NPC seeded skillbooks for T3 Strategic Cruisers, Subsystems, and T3 Destroyers. Have all of these skillbooks completely seeded from Sleeper Data Sites. This would give Sleeper Data Sites something unique to provide to market, and the scarcity would manage the price and CCP can easily tune the drop rates to make sure the skillbook prices don't go out of control. For a good example of how this works, take a look at the Neurotoxin Control and Neurotoxin Recovery skillbooks. They are both completely seeded from Nullsec Booster Gas Sites. 2. The Faction Data/Relic Sites, and Hacking Minigame needs more depth. So this is a complex point. a. The Faction Data/Relic sites are pretty basic. You scan the site down successfully, and hack the cans for loot without any kind of time crunch. There are no NPCs (they were removed in Odyssey - a good change) but there's also no actual "exploration". The added Sleeper Cache sites gave us environmental hazards to avoid, damage to tank, puzzles to unlock, secret rooms to find, and multiple timers to create pressure. The actual hacking minigame wasn't the challenge or the point of the site - it was the time we took running around the site to find everything we possibly could, and unlock the secrets. I really like the way these sites were designed - even if they were done with the old dungeon creator system which doesn't make the site very dynamic. If anything, if the Faction Data/Relic sites were revamped, I'd like to see more of this kind of content added to challenge us, and keep the sites changing up a bit to be more interesting. What if we scanned the site and warped into it, but we didn't see any cans to hack? We had to fly around in the site to decloak them, or navigate some environmental hazards? Just some food for thought. b. The hacking minigame is pretty basic, and CCP has admitted they want to make changes but have been fairly slow at iterating. This post outlines a few of the ideas: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4954269#post4954269 CCP Bayesian did get the "number of nodes to good stuff" feature added in. The idea of having multiple cores, or more interesting defense software and countermeasures could be something to add depth to the hacking minigame. I'd personally like to see consumables for the hack that we can find, manufacture, and purchase and carry between sites. We could create a mini-economy behind these, and it would make hard decisions when hacking whether to risk using a consumable or not - or having to plug in the consumables you want to use before starting the hack, and not know what you may need and have to play off contingencies or research the sites somehow. We have to be careful however, as we don't want to make the hacking minigame too twitch/time intensive. Hackers already have to balance their hacking progress with watching local and dscan - especially in wormholes. They also have to manage their distances to site obstacles to be able to cloak up if something comes in, while being able to scoop loot. Keeping at range at 2200 isn't really good counterplay, and you can't align out while hacking as you'll get out of range.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2313	Posted - 2015.07.28 02:27:03 - [39] - Quote Ransu Asanari wrote: I'd suggest removing the NPC seeded skillbooks for T3 Strategic Cruisers, Subsystems, and T3 Destroyers. Have all of these skillbooks completely seeded from Sleeper Data Sites. This would give Sleeper Data Sites something unique to provide to market, and the scarcity would manage the price and CCP can easily tune the drop rates to make sure the skillbook prices don't go out of control. For a good example of how this works, take a look at the Neurotoxin Control and Neurotoxin Recovery skillbooks. They are both completely seeded from Nullsec Booster Gas Sites. 1. Why would an Empire developed T3D have a skillbook only available in sleeper sites? Lets at least have some common sense involved in things here. T3C's shrugs Way way too late to do that change as it would be a massive nerf on all new players compared to old players who bought them cheap on the NPC market. 2. Look at how many people use boosters. They are rare as hell (for several reasons admittedly) so using their skillbooks as an argument for RNG luck in being able to use an item isn't a good argument either.
Ransu Asanari AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 303	Posted - 2015.07.28 02:38:51 - [40] - Quote 1. There's always a way to work a change like this into the lore. "Because Lore" isn't a good excuse for not doing something. Maybe the initial cache of skillbooks collected has run out due to popularity, and can't be generated by the empire corporations (the man responsible has mysteriously disappeared). Fortunately they can still be found in these sites. Because the skillbooks are all NPC generated, they can all be easily refunded for cost so nobody can hoard them and put them back on the market for extreme profit. 2. The Neurotoxin skillbooks are very rare, which is why the price is so high. Booster Gas sites are only found in specific constellations in Lowsec/Nullsec, and only in the combat drug site, and even then have a low drop rate for the skillbooks. Sleeper Data sites are fairly common from C1-C6 so the drop rate can be easily managed to ensure a supply that doesn't cause the prices to rise too high.

Vlad Draculesti Catastrophic Overview Failure Brave Collective 37	Posted - 2015.07.28 03:10:03 - [41] - Quote Banana1x wrote: I agree that the meta games are identical and thus could be merged. But I'd rather a better mini game be designed. Something that will take more time and leave explorers completely vulnerable so i am able to warp in and kill them - or if they warp out immediately they are punished for not staying and getting killed by allowing me to steal the data probe that contains the loot from the can they just hacked. It frustrates me greatly that they can cloak, can get all the money from doing a heap of those sites and probing and they keep warping away especially if they are aligned to something rather than orbiting / loop approaching the can. It's not fair that people are able to make decent amounts of money and be almost immune to death due to being cloakey's when im spending an entire 30 seconds figuring out what site they are at and warping to them only for them to escape like every time because im TERRIbad. But if you implement the above idea chances are i'll get some kills! Fixed that for you.
Ransu Asanari AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 303	Posted - 2015.07.28 03:17:17 - [42] - Quote Hah seriously. I kill explorers in these sites all the time. I actually made a video about how I hunt them a while back (turn up the audio): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UdQF1Mu4vY
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1414	Posted - 2015.07.28 03:48:33 - [43] - Quote Ransu Asanari wrote: Hah seriously. I kill explorers in these sites all the time. I actually made a video about how I hunt them a while back (turn up the audio): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UdQF1Mu4vY Good video. I've always been a huge fan of sitting within 5km of the tastiest can with a cloaked Eris. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
Scuzzy Logic Nightmare Machinery 148	Posted - 2015.07.28 03:52:06 - [44] - Quote I agree 100%. Alternatively, give us a different minigame/experience for archeology. ...I miss mag signatures.
Banana1x Sudden Buggery Prolapse. 59	Posted - 2015.07.28 03:55:58 - [45] - Quote Vlad Draculesti wrote: Banana1x wrote: I agree that the meta games are identical and thus could be merged. But I'd rather a better mini game be designed. Something that will take more time and leave explorers completely vulnerable so i am able to warp in and kill them - or if they warp out immediately they are punished for not staying and getting killed by allowing me to steal the data probe that contains the loot from the can they just hacked. It frustrates me greatly that they can cloak, can get all the money from doing a heap of those sites and probing and they keep warping away especially if they are aligned to something rather than orbiting / loop approaching the can. It's not fair that people are able to make decent amounts of money and be almost immune to death due to being cloakey's when im spending an entire 30 seconds figuring out what site they are at and warping to them only for them to escape like every time because im TERRIbad. But if you implement the above idea chances are i'll get some kills! Fixed that for you. lol I enjoy exploring too. As I stated before, the intent wasn't to add more steps or expose explorers to any more risk. The current mechanic requires you to go to each can and remain vulnerable while you hack it. This is just a slightly different mechanic with no more or less exposure for the sole purpose of varying the game play to make it interesting.
Not that Forumguy Hedion University Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2015.07.28 04:36:17 - [46] - Quote What about people like myself who trained up both skills to five ? P.S... love all the +1 kissing up to a csm post
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2066	Posted - 2015.07.28 04:44:24 - [47] - Quote Ransu Asanari wrote: I'd suggest removing the NPC seeded skillbooks for T3 Strategic Cruisers, Subsystems, and T3 Destroyers. Have all of these skillbooks completely seeded from Sleeper Data Sites. This would give Sleeper Data Sites something unique to provide to market, and the scarcity would manage the price and CCP can easily tune the drop rates to make sure the skillbook prices don't go out of control. For a good example of how this works, take a look at the Neurotoxin Control and Neurotoxin Recovery skillbooks. They are both completely seeded from Nullsec Booster Gas Sites. So the empire designed ships and sub-systems for those ship but somehow can't write a user manual for them? They design them but don't know how they work?
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2066	Posted - 2015.07.28 04:46:20 - [48] - Quote Not that Forumguy wrote: What about people like myself who trained up both skills to five ? P.S... love all the +1 kissing up to a csm post Reading the last part of the OP where your "issue" was described was too hard for you.
Herr Esiq Dirt Nap Squad 129	Posted - 2015.07.28 06:34:22 - [49] - Quote Great idea Chance, even though I have both skills at V, I fully agree. It makes no sense.
SpaceSaft Capts Deranged Cavaliers Gentlemen's.Club 156	Posted - 2015.07.28 06:43:42 - [50] - Quote You know what? No. We all agree that the entire skill and attribute system needs change. The #1 thing people ask before getting into eve is "can I catch up" and the answer is "no but it doesn't matter that much." Great. We all know that's wrong to some degree. Hell, my character was born more than two years ago and I just now got into T2 cruisers because I did other stuff first. I sure would have liked to create content with more different ships in those two years. The skillsystem is boring, it doesn't make much sense in many many cases, requires skill least of all and to single this problem with hacking and archeology out and remove it is a cop-out. Here is a list of skills that don't make sense right now: The market order skills. You train 4 different skills and lvl 4 and 5 bring next to nothing compared to the next 3 levels of the next skill. It goes Trade 2 gives 4 per level -> Retail 5 gives 8 per level -> Wholesale 5 gives 16 per level -> Tycoon. gives 32 per level. It's so crazy that it makes more sense to make an alt train these skills that complete tycoon 4 and 5. The same problem exists with corporation membership skills. It also exists, although not as extreme with industry and science job skills. And Pi. Anything that locks you out of using something that's essentially the same is the same has the issue with hacking and archeology: Racial shiphull skills, subsystems, guns to some degree. Like, once you have learned flying a ship or shooting a gun it's not like other races guns operate entirely differently. Also it's worth mentioning the reddit post about those 10 mil skillpoints "core skills" that are literally 6 months filler that earn CCP cash. Or so they think, because they never see the cash of the people who just go away at the notion of "training" stupid stuff for 6 months before being able to do something interesting. So advocate for a reworkd of the entire skillsystem please, not just the parts that inconvenience you personally. The UI is still bad.

Anthar Thebess 1241	Posted - 2015.07.28 06:58:39 - [51] - Quote Something is wrong here. Not a 'Shart' idea and CSM symbol .... Stop talking this way or you will be re elected. Capital Remote AID Rebalance Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
Amarisen Gream Divine Demise 92	Posted - 2015.07.28 07:26:25 - [52] - Quote I don't explore Thank it's the fact I dislike scanning. But I could get behind this - +1 On the skill side - merge the skills - add the SP from the merged skill to the primary skill. Any left over SP goes to the next highest skill in that skill group. In the case the player has all skills in said great maxed out - allow them to spend as desired. xoxo Amarisen Gream
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1456	Posted - 2015.07.28 07:35:41 - [53] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: Rossi Tenmar wrote: No. It gives you so much easy ISK, it should take some time to train the skills. Yes, "data sites make too much ISK" is the complaint of many an explorer. Have you run the sleeper caches? They give a very nice return thank you very much :) The reason for the two modules is as I stated previously: enforced fitting choices. It also means you need to pick the correct analyzer on the correct can in a situation where even a few wasted seconds can blow the site (and your ship). I would also rather the hacks be differentiated but the separate skills and modules are fine. Just a point on the calls to make explo easier for easy income for newbies. If we have a suddenly much simpler process and more people easily running sites the value of the goods from the sites will plummet. There has to be a balance and the sleeper cache system should be expanded to provide such. Use the same processes and layout to create escalations. Have the hack at such a level that hisec escalations can be followed by tech I analyzer skilled pilots, losec by more experienced hackers, null by tech II capable hackers. Exploration should be made more involving not quicker and easier.
Matt Faithbringer Rapid Withdrawal 10	Posted - 2015.07.28 07:52:37 - [54] - Quote Ransu Asanari wrote: Short Answer No, we don't need to merge these skills, or remove one branch. In fact, it wouldn't be worth the effort to do this. Long Answer There is a lot of complexity in the current system which is good. As others have pointed out, we have hard fitting choices when needing to fit both modules onto ships, we have T1 and T2 module and rig manufacturing, and different implants. For example, if you want to fit a T2 Data and Relic Analyzer on a decent Astero build, you either need to use a fitting module/rig, or a Sisters Core Probe Launcher. The skill progression for Hacking and Archaeology is fairly shallow as well. I don't think it's beneficial to remove one of the skills and make the skill progression even more shallow. There is only the one skill for each Hacking and Archaeology to train to 5, and then you're done. There's no "Advanced" skill tree, or additional supplementary skills needed. We could even add in a skill, such as one that gives you more range to your hacking module. There is no need to give newbies a break, as a lot of the exploration sites can be done with a T1 hacking module and low skills. Yes, the basic frigate skill is needed, cloaking, and scanning skills. But when you compare this to the depth of SP investment for mining (for example) to get to an Exhumer with T2 Strip Mining and Ice Lasers, you can see where the investment for Hacking/Archaeology really isn't that much. On top of that, the Astero/Stratios have made it easier to get into decently bonused ships much faster than having to train Frigate 5 and then Covert Ops. CCP have cleverly created a new tier of exploration with the Sleeper Cache sites where it requires Hacking and Archaology 5 to leverage the SP investment , as well as very good scanning skills to access them. This puts a higher SP bar to access and complete these sites, as well as the more difficult ones requiring very good tanking skills, as well as Cruiser level ships such as a Stratios or T3 Cruiser. The new Covert and Besieged Covert sites added also require one of the modules, as well as a good tank and DPS (in the case of defeating the Mordu's Legion ships). On top of this we have the new Drifter Complexes which require two teams equipped with Data Analyzers to access the central Hive. This is probably more to CCP's intent in Odyssey with the "loot spew" (now removed) where they wanted Exploration activities that encouraged teamwork. When you look at the effort involved in removing one of the modules, industry components, the skills, and modifying all of the sites - I just don't see the benefit to us as a result of this effort on the part of CCP. More details on what actual changes we could use in next post. I agree that there should be progression. So let's merge the skills. And add new skills, analyzer range (+1km per level?, I could even see +2km per level), virus strength (+2 / level), virus coherency (+3 / level). That would add more progression. Only thing needed would be probably making some higher end sites harded on the hacking part
Sarah Bonaparte KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 0	Posted - 2015.07.28 09:14:28 - [55] - Quote if u want remove some skill in this ******* nightmare game is ok. drop useless skill is the first step..
Slim Maken Bleeding Gums Clan 1	Posted - 2015.07.28 10:09:31 - [56] - Quote This change would be a buff to the Nestor. So I'm all for it.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1458	Posted - 2015.07.28 10:37:33 - [57] - Quote Slim Maken wrote: This change would be a buff to the Nestor. So I'm all for it. Nestor doesn't need a buff for this, it already has the slots to fit both analyzers and still have a good armour tank. Most people would use a tech III cruiser over the nestor for explo anyway when such a tank i required.
Mynxee Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 158	Posted - 2015.07.28 10:44:09 - [58] - Quote The OP's core complaint is that there's not enough differentiation between data and relic hacking. No argument there but I am not fond of seeing opportunities for more interesting and varied gameplay eliminated by combining/homogenizing content. I'd much rather see data and relic sites have completely different hacking mini-games--one using the current interface, and the other using some different new one. There's a lot of potential to make the hacking mini-game super fun with interesting and challenging variants for each mini-game type. As addicting as it is, the hacking mini-game in its current form is overly repetitive and predictable after doing a few dozen sites. It was a good start to this kind of gameplay but could be so much better. I would also like the cans to be unscannable. You should have to complete the hack to find out what's in there. Lost in space, looking for sigs... Blog: Outlaw Insouciant
rofflesausage State War Academy Caldari State 206	Posted - 2015.07.28 10:49:29 - [59] - Quote Merge the modules, but make the new one scriptable. Different scripts for each type of site. This allows for the sites to be differentiated if CCP get around to it, but also allows for newer types of sites by simply adding a new script to the game. There is a lot you could do with this approach. For example: Each of the pirate factions in nullsec drop scripts with a very low chance. These unlock acceleration gates of other pirate faction sites in other regions of nullsec. The scripts get consumed on use. These sites are valuable in terms of their rewards. Scripts are really easy for current and new players to understand, and they offer lots of expandability.
Mynxee Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 158	Posted - 2015.07.28 10:52:07 - [60] - Quote rofflesausage wrote: Merge the modules, but make the new one scriptable. Different scripts for each type of site. This allows for the sites to be differentiated if CCP get around to it, but also allows for newer types of sites by simply adding a new script to the game. There is a lot you could do with this approach. For example: Each of the pirate factions in nullsec drop scripts with a very low chance. These unlock acceleration gates of other pirate faction sites in other regions of nullsec. The scripts get consumed on use. These sites are valuable in terms of their rewards. Scripts are really easy for current and new players to understand, and they offer lots of expandability. Great suggestion! Lost in space, looking for sigs... Blog: Outlaw Insouciant

Obidiah Kane Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo 33	Posted - 2015.07.28 11:04:54 - [61] - Quote WingSpan for Astero buff!
Tyler Startide Furor Teutonicus Lux Aetherna 12	Posted - 2015.07.28 11:27:27 - [62] - Quote I think having two different minigames for data and relic sites would be the way to go. Just merging the skills would also be okay but I think 2 different minigames would also improve the exploration gameplay.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1459	Posted - 2015.07.28 11:40:30 - [63] - Quote Mynxee wrote: ...As addicting as it is, the hacking mini-game in its current form is overly repetitive and predictable after doing a few dozen sites.... I don't think it is meant to be too involving but rather a time factor to put a pilot at risk and/or under time pressure. Any mini-game will become repetitive the amount of times even a moderate explorer would run them. Make it too complex and you push up the at risk time and would therefore have to buff the reward in compensation. Mynxee wrote: I would also like the cans to be unscannable. You should have to complete the hack to find out what's in a can. I don't think this should be the case as again it gives the choice to a player of sacrifice a slot for a scanner or hack the lot. I do the latter as despawning a site can trigger a new sig.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1459	Posted - 2015.07.28 11:42:06 - [64] - Quote rofflesausage wrote: Merge the modules, but make the new one scriptable. Different scripts for each type of site. This allows for the sites to be differentiated if CCP get around to it, but also allows for newer types of sites by simply adding a new script to the game. ... It also removes the need to choose between sacrificing an extra midslot or not.
Savant Alabel Raging Academy 42	Posted - 2015.07.28 12:27:56 - [65] - Quote Yeah, free one mid-slot on my astero for scrambler!
Lynx Sawpaw THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two 19	Posted - 2015.07.28 12:55:13 - [66] - Quote +1
Spugg Galdon Nisroc Angels 731	Posted - 2015.07.28 13:07:44 - [67] - Quote A simple fix to Data sites is to have them drop BPC's of the meta modules. NPC rats should then drop "parts" instead of complete modules. Parts looted from NPC wrecks are then used with a T1 module and a meta BPC obtained from a data site to build meta level modules. Industry gets a buff. Data sites get a buff. The fact that EVERYTHING in Eve should be built by players instead of just spawning into existence is one step closer. EDIT: I'm also against your proposal Chance. Sorry but I think the fact that you require to sacrifice a mid slot or carry a mobile depot is kind of the point. That extra mid slot would be worth gigillions in balance.
davet517 Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion 112	Posted - 2015.07.28 13:22:47 - [68] - Quote Or, here's an idea. Make them more different from each other, and re-distribute the loot tables, to make their value more similar. Warning, Bittervet Rant Incoming: Scanning used to be hard and it took some skill. So, the isk/hr wasn't up to par with other things that you could do? Fine, MAKE IT MORE REWARDING, NOT EASIER. The top end of these loot tables should be HOLY F!!! exciting, but rare. The content should be challenging, but doable. If it gets any easier, you might as well just put a "give me isk" button on the scanner interface with a 5 minute cool-down. /rant If it's too similar, make it more different. If it's too easy, make it harder, but more rewarding. Don't dumb it down further.
Phoenix Jones Isogen 5 1520	Posted - 2015.07.28 13:30:19 - [69] - Quote I'd agree on merging the two modules into one. It's a idea that makes it simpler by not dumbing it down. Yaay!!!!
Spugg Galdon Nisroc Angels 731	Posted - 2015.07.28 13:48:55 - [70] - Quote Maybe a better mini game that resembles hacking more..... maybe like this

Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 320	Posted - 2015.07.28 14:06:04 - [71] - Quote Before sleepers sites I would say yes to merge modules, but now? Data modules are for hacking devices, relic modules for "cans" (sleepers sites ofc). Also removing threshold to a profession that supposed to be one of most lucrative in cluster won't help it. CCP took interesitng direction with sleepers caches, both hacking skills needs to be high, there are some dangers waiting on explorers in there. I hope they rebuild current data/relics into something similiar. For those who want more complex hacking. It may backfire into explorers. We don't need to hack every can on site, we have cargo scanners. "-What are you doing?" "-Docking."(...) -"It's not possible" -"No, it's necessary."
Cidanel Afuran Grant Village 126	Posted - 2015.07.28 14:10:15 - [72] - Quote Not that Forumguy wrote: What about people like myself who trained up both skills to five ? P.S... love all the +1 kissing up to a csm post What about people like you? Adapt to changes or stop complaining.
Arsine Mayhem Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 391	Posted - 2015.07.28 14:19:55 - [73] - Quote Banana1x wrote: I agree that the meta games are identical and thus could be merged. But I'd rather a better mini game be designed. Mini games add nothing to the actual game and are more like a bandage over a festering wound that never heals. Take them out or do something half way real.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 52	Posted - 2015.07.28 14:45:00 - [74] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: ... Have the hack at such a level that hisec escalations can be followed by tech I analyzer skilled pilots, losec by more experienced hackers, null by tech II capable hackers. Exploration should be made more involving not quicker and easier. I think the idea of Escalations from data/relic sites would be awesome. This does 3 things, 1) it adds value to each site you scan down because you can potentially get another site without scanning. 2) the escalation sites can't have campers, your ship would need to be scanned down with combat probes. 3) it adds an exploration activity to Exploration. As for the OP, I don't mind having 2 skills so much as having 2 modules equipped. I would be for a new module that combined both modules. Someone else suggested a T1 only SoE faction module, but I would make it available in T2 as well, since most relic centered explorers would not see value in upgrading. Much like the SoE probe launcher this would increase the value of the exploration ship as well making for juicer prey. Exploration has a lot of room for growth. Here are a few ideas I have: - New data site with cluster of cans inside a force field. One can outside which must be hacked to drop the FF. The force field then goes back up on start of first cluster can hack until all cans are hacked or destroyed. The cluster cans can all be harder and larger puzzles since the explorer is protected for the duration. Cloaky campers can still camp the FF node or sneak inside when the shield is dropped. And if a hunter comes upon an explorer already inside they can take up position waiting for the shield to drop at the end or follow the explorer when they leave. It could be the FF controls could be re-spawn after a short duration (1min) so a hunter or another explorer could attempt to drop the shield and scare off or attack anyone already inside. -Chained sites. Initial site only has 1 container but spawns a new site in same system on successful attempt. The new site is on the probe scanner and must be scanned down and will have 2-3 cans. Upon successful completion of all cans, no failures, a 3rd site is spawned the same way with another 2-3 cans. And upon completion without failure, a guaranteed escalation site is added to your journal. The chain could mix data and relic sites or even containers in same site causing both skills to be useful for success and moving on to the next chain. So many things could be done to add more variety, some fairly simple some more complex. I think adding more combination data/relic sites to the standard list would add value to the separate skills as you would want to be good in both for best chance at success.
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 58	Posted - 2015.07.28 14:51:14 - [75] - Quote Disclaimer: I'm always for removing skills. I'm for removing all skills. That being said, there's a lot of 'make these more differenter' without any suggestions so here's mine. Somebody somewhere posted about how archeology is about sifting through relics, I like that idea. Consider: Relic sites are modified to have extraneous cans, 15-30(,000 for all I care). In order to successfully run the site you need to open the valid cans, and in the right order. Opening the wrong can, or in the wrong sequence causes the site to explode/spawn sleepers/engage in sexual congress with your mom. Relic Analyzers now have the job of showing you the order in which you need to open them. First using the module on entering the site shows you the first can in sequence. Pop open that can, and there's an new minigame. Maybe a cipher or sliding block puzzle, i.e. make the picture match and your next can lights up on overview. The support skills get transferred from virus coherence to supporting this new minigame. More time on the clock, less moving parts to the puzzle, whatever. Get a T2 analyzer, and it shows you the first two cans in sequence, giving you a 50% chance of skipping the first puzzle. And then you can have that crossover with the data sites. Open the data cans in the right order and a previously cloaked can(s) shows up. And for relic sites, maybe the data analyzer can be used to modify the puzzles slightly, or it gives you a 1-off chance to open an invalid, non-sequence can (which would naturally have loot in it to encourage mistakes and mask the actual payout cans). Relic sites behave differently. Relic and data analyzers have a distinct, and synergistic purpose to encourage fitting both. People stop looting one can and leaving a site with just carbon. PS: You can still just remove the skills. I'm ok with that.
Arla Sarain 567	Posted - 2015.07.28 14:59:27 - [76] - Quote davet517 wrote: Or, here's an idea. Make them more different from each other, and re-distribute the loot tables, to make their value more similar. Warning, Bittervet Rant Incoming: Scanning used to be hard and it took some skill. So, the isk/hr wasn't up to par with other things that you could do? Fine, MAKE IT MORE REWARDING, NOT EASIER. The top end of these loot tables should be HOLY F!!! exciting, but rare. The content should be challenging, but doable. If it gets any easier, you might as well just put a "give me isk" button on the scanner interface with a 5 minute cool-down. /rant If it's too similar, make it more different. If it's too easy, make it harder, but more rewarding. Don't dumb it down further. How do you make it hard? Before when you had to deploy 1 probe per cycle, and place them manually - it wasn't hard. Just time consuming. If you lock it up by skill level - doesn't fix anything. All you do is delay the ISK machine; people who have no access to the modules needed stray away from the activity;those who do have access begin to explore opportunities. They find that there is a lack of supply on the market and start making $$$. Other pick up on that and start training. Sure, maybe the time investment is long, but in the end its worth it...? Until you again, have tons of explorers swooping cans faster than the site respawn and the market gets saturated again, except the populace is worse off, because now there is a minority that has a monopoly due to the access restriction. At the end of the day Exploration is in the same spot as LP store farmers - they don't make liquid ISK. Hence they earn as much as the NS crabbers are willing to pay...
Lion Drome Der Wehrmacht 0	Posted - 2015.07.28 15:01:47 - [77] - Quote I'm all for this update of the hacking and exploration skills. They are basicly identical things and only thing different is the loot. Removing one, or the other & combining them into one skill which cuts down on the new players and experienced players getting into it. Saves us from having to carry a module and generally a buff to data sites would be a much nicer thing to see. An update I'd love to see is also a site despawn timer. Similar to say besieged covert research facilities. Once the site has been activated (Can opened) the site automaticly despawns in say 20-30 minutes. This would save many from warping into sites which only have bad/empty cans in them, and would generally make the whole experience much nicer since you don't have to worry have all of the good stuff been taken and you have just been left with one empty can. Great idea to merge the two skills and use the level from the one thats higher as the preset for the level the player would have as the new skill level. The smaller level could be given as Free SP so in general you'd get a good feeling about the whole exploration update. Players would have to carry less modules since some sites don't even require both like ghost sites. The data site loot gets updated and the player still gets the time he put into the lower skill back as free SP. P.S. The Relic site exploration cans could use an update. Since it is well "Archeology" so should we not have say old buildings, wrecked ships (Like for example imagine using your new exploration module in a wrecked Sanshas carrier in a null/W-space relic site or a guristas Wyvern) etc. Since having the same one model for all the containers for all the factions seems kind of 2000. Data sites atleast have different size of buildings to use them on. But they cou
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2991	Posted - 2015.07.28 15:34:45 - [78] - Quote Considering that everything from traditional data and relic sites are sold on a player driven market, increasing the amount of loot will only devalue the sites, requiring less modules and skills to do the sites will devalue the sites. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 52	Posted - 2015.07.28 15:47:10 - [79] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: Considering that everything from traditional data and relic sites are sold on a player driven market, increasing the amount of loot will only devalue the sites, requiring less modules and skills to do the sites will devalue the sites. I agree about the skills. Exploration could use more variety of loot in null/low as it is, so that it is not devalued, especially data sites. I still think a new duo-module could add to the game, cost for convenience. Maybe add components for new structures to data site loot tables, or use some of those seemingly unused items form data sites for new BPs thus increasing their value.
Garai Nolen Xyjax NICE Inter-Celestial Enterprises 42	Posted - 2015.07.28 16:43:17 - [80] - Quote Mynxee wrote: The OP's core complaint is that there's not enough differentiation between data and relic hacking. No argument there but I am not fond of seeing opportunities for more interesting and varied gameplay eliminated by combining/homogenizing content. If we took out data sites and hacking though, it would basically not change the day to day experience (or train or fitting) of most current explorers. Exploration with just relic sites (e.g. most actual exploration done today) is already in a pretty good, solid, and interesting place. I would rather see CCP take that effort and create a brand new content type rather than just spin wheels on iterating over exploration content that's already pretty solid WITHOUT that differentiation. Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Have you run the sleeper caches? ... The reason for the two modules is as I stated previously: enforced fitting choices. If I'm exploring, non-combat, I only fit a data analyzer if I have spare fitting I already don't care about. The current state of data sites makes the fitting argument irrelevant. Sleeper caches would be a great potential exception, except... combat. Any ship capable of solo'ing them is already facing refit downtime and carrying a mobile depot. Fitting choices lose relevance when you can refit anywhere within 60s and already have to anyway in order to switch between combat , hacking, and travel roles. Ransu Asanari wrote: On top of this we have the new Drifter Complexes which require two teams equipped with Data Analyzers to access the central Hive. The drifter sites do seem awesome, but what drives that is NOT the fact that they use arch and hacking at the same time. What makes them interesting is the requirement to hack two different things at the same time and how that forces folks to fly the site with other people. It would take absolutely nothing away from drifter sites to make the hacking all data or all relic; the interesting bit is the cooperative element. EVEoj - EVE Online JavaScript library: http://eve-oj.xyjax.com/

Xe'Cara'eos A Big Enough Lever 309	Posted - 2015.07.28 16:47:42 - [81] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: instead of merging these into one, they should be made more distinct from each other. this gets my vote THIS! I want to see an archaeology minigame like digging trenches! For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Friggz Caldari Provisions Caldari State 180	Posted - 2015.07.28 18:18:05 - [82] - Quote +1 The main detractors to this idea are saying "They are two seperate things, so just make them seperate and different." Let me pose a hypothetical to you. Let's say that Archeology didn't exist. There are no relic sites and no Archeology skill. There is only Hacking and Data sites. This is all you've ever known. Now, pretend I came onto these forums and suggested a new type of exploration, called Archeology. It will use a skill that works identically to hacking. It will use a module that works identically to hacking. It will use sites that work identically to hacking. It will a mini-game that works identically to hacking. I imagine your responses would be "Why does this need to be in the game?" Or "What does this add?" Or even "Does exploration really need 2 different types of modules?" Everyone is saying "Make them seperate" but I haven't seen anyone provide a good reason for why we need 2 seperate types of exploration sites in the first place. It's just that there's always been 2, so it feels like there should still be 2. But then, realize if the situation was reversed and there was only 1, absolutely no one would be saying we need 2 different modules and sites that work exactly the same way. Ah, but of course you wouldn't want that, and you don't want that. You want them to be different. The problem is they aren't different, and making them different is essentially adding new content. Adding content is always good, but there is no reason why CCP can't merge them now, and then add new content later that uses the same sites, skills, and modules. Why not? They've done it before. There is no difference between seperating them or making them the same and then adding new content later, except that one makes life much better right now and the other maintains a poor status quo. Another counter-arguement is that having 2 modules is some type of choice or meaningful decision, but it's not. If I have a door in front of me and 2 keys and 1 works and 1 doesn't, I'm not making a meaningful decision, I have to use the key that works. Maybe fitting decisions would have been an interesting choice in the past, but with how cheap and easy mobile depots are, all you would be doing is adding a bit of tedium as the explorer drops their depot and refilts. In short, this is a solid suggestion and I don't see any reason made thus far as to why we need 2 redundant skills and modules.
Jennifer Maxwell Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 299	Posted - 2015.07.28 19:23:52 - [83] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: All right let's face it: There are no meaningful differences between these skills. They take a significant time for new players to train, but don't offer significantly different risks or benefits, except that data loot is mostly garbage. Yet die hard explorers feel compelled to carry and or fit both modules around, even though they result in identical minigames and mechanics. Hell, some newer exploration sites, like Ghost Sites, don't even care which module you use! So let's end the charade. Merge both skills into Hacking, make all current data and relic sites "hacking" sites and just make things simpler and less arbitrarily silly. This means less arbitrary training time, fewer wasted ship midslots, and no need to explain why "archeology" is a computer hacking game. The side bonus is hacking "data" sites wont be as bad since the training and fitting requirements being halved adds some value to your day. Give people Hacking to whichever level of the two existing skills is higher, and give them the lower skill's SP as freely distributable bonus SP. Whaddya think? No. So I take it you hate the exploration profession? Because this is a good way to ** it over even more. Rubicon really screwed it up by making it accessible to everyone almost at day 1. Before then, scanning took skill. I spent days learning to scan, and months learning to scan well. It was something to put on my resume: not everyone back then had the time nor desire to learn how to wrestle with the scanning system. This created opportunity. Because it was hard to do, fewer people were doing it. Because fewer people were doing it, the gains from running the sites went up due to scarcity. ALSO, because fewer people were interested, there was actually a small market for being a cartographer. I got hired a few times in my early days to go around a chain of systems, scan down the sites, bookmark the ones my employer was looking for, and then sell them the bookmarks. I developed a skill, and turned it into isk. Now, everyone and their dog can scan. It's trivial. And hence, the market for it crashed. You came into the game (if this is your first character, anyways) after all this happened. You didn't have to experience all your skills and knowledge becoming suddenly worth a lot less than before. You didn't really see the price devaluation of your loot hanger, nor that fewer and fewer people would pay for bookmarks anymore. Having two skills is not "good difficulty", granted. It's an artificial barrier, since both hacking and archeology rely on the same mini game. But removing it would remove a further factor in scarcity, meaning someone who would have passed the sites over before now does them and gets the loot from them. The more loot being generated, the less worth it has. You might think archeology for T2 salvage is a good source of income, but before Ruibcon, it was a *** gold mine. What it is now is a joke compared. Instead, differentiate more between the two. Give better rewards, and tweak the mini game so that the hacking is noticeably different from the salvaging. Expand on it. Salvaging should have the chance to give faction parts. And not just Guristas or Sperpentis or whatever pirate faction is in your area, you should also find Navy and NPC corporation wreck sites for variety's sake. Hacking should have the chance to give faction blueprints. You're hacking secure databases, and you should have the potential to find much better rewards than now. And for **'s sake, make it harder to scan the higher value loot sites. Because right now, it's trivial. Make it harder and give better rewards. To be completely honest, I don't think exploration will ever recover from Rubicon. Not in the direction CCP is taking it. But your idea is just one more nail in it's coffin.
Haatakan Reppola Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 66	Posted - 2015.07.28 19:32:10 - [84] - Quote Dont merge them so people need to use 2 mid slots, what about changing them to low slots? Right armor tankers would hate that...
Friggz Caldari Provisions Caldari State 181	Posted - 2015.07.28 19:43:03 - [85] - Quote It is true that making things more accessible leads to more people doing them, which in generally leads to reduced profits if the activity isn't an isk faucet. However, I don't think this change signficiantly impacts accessiblity. Most people are only doing Relics and not Data sites anyway, and for those players the accessiblity has not changed at all. Even if the player does want both skills to IV before doing exploration for some reason, it's 4 extra days. It would really only matter to new players. Even if it did have some kind of impact, it's certainly hyperbole to say it would 'kill exploration.'
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1463	Posted - 2015.07.28 20:13:53 - [86] - Quote Garai Nolen wrote: ... Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Have you run the sleeper caches? ... The reason for the two modules is as I stated previously: enforced fitting choices. If I'm exploring, non-combat, I only fit a data analyzer if I have spare fitting I already don't care about. The current state of data sites makes the fitting argument irrelevant. Sleeper caches would be a great potential exception, except... combat. Any ship capable of solo'ing them is already facing refit downtime and carrying a mobile depot. Fitting choices lose relevance when you can refit anywhere within 60s and already have to anyway in order to switch between combat , hacking, and travel roles.... That's interesting as I solo all the sleeper caches whenever I find them without the need to refit, refit can help if you know which resists to shift to for the next damage type but to be honest I don't normally bother as it isn't necessary in the right ship. Time is a factor on these sites, if you don't want someone coming in and despawning the site or worse triggering the nastiness then you'd better be quick.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 52	Posted - 2015.07.28 20:32:33 - [87] - Quote Friggz wrote: It is true that making things more accessible leads to more people doing them, which in generally leads to reduced profits if the activity isn't an isk faucet. However, I don't think this change signficiantly impacts accessiblity. Most people are only doing Relics and not Data sites anyway, and for those players the accessiblity has not changed at all. Even if the player does want both skills to IV before doing exploration for some reason, it's 4 extra days. It would really only matter to new players. T2 module currently require lvl V so all those people with Arch V and Hack III/IV are weaker against the hardest hacking sites. If they merged and lowered T2 requirements, then all the data sites just got easier for those players. Skills at III or IV and T1 modules will fail on harder cans. Let the people that chose to invest in Hacking keep an advantage over those that did not. If people don't care about data sites then the merger will not make a huge impact, true. But then why bother making a change at all, leave well enough alone and let people keep skipping the data sites. I rarely find the new sites. When I do, I'm often deep into unfriendly territory, and it is not the time I want to risk losing my ship to a sleeper cache. But if I did find one close to home, having good skills in both give me an advantage over someone that didn't train both to V. If we really want to merge the 2 skills then make it the same SP as Arch V + Hack V and keep the lvl V requirement for T2 modules. Anyone not already 2x V will need to train up to use the T2 module again. This simplifies things while forcing people to decide if they want to be able to use T2 or not. I have said it earlier, I would rather a new module be made that does both data/relic sites and has Arch V and Hack V as requirements to use. This changes nothing for those only doing relic sites now unless they have already trained Hack V. If so then they can upgrade to the new module and do either site type for 1 mid slot.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1463	Posted - 2015.07.28 21:40:07 - [88] - Quote Rather than merge the modules it would be better I think to merge the sites, have the sigs show up as a new sig name and have them conatin both data and relic cans for different purposes, with the data cans giving BPC's and such along with better access to better cans, and the relic cans giving parts and loot. The hacking game isn't intended to be a major brain test but rather a time sink to put you at risk. Make it take too long and the risk becomes unbalanced, make it require too much focus and you turn sites into death traps in lower sec space. There's nothing wrong with the current system in my opinion, just the sites need to be improved.
LUMINOUS SPIRIT The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People 872	Posted - 2015.07.28 22:25:11 - [89] - Quote I would have to politely disagree. As it stands, right now the modules require 2 spaces in the mid slots. And it takes some consideration when fitting your ship. Most ships, if you want to fit 2 such modules, really sacrifice some tank and or mobility in the process. If you combine 2 modules into one, some of the fitting problems go away, and it becomes easier and faster to do the data sites. For example. passive tank nighthawk in C5 sleeper sites for ninja method. You have to choose what module to fit, because you cant fit 2 of them or your tank will fold. You have to choose what to nonja - talocan or the data cans. if you combine 2 modules into one, suddenly its possible to hack both the talocan AND the scattered data cans easily. There are more cases. I wont go into specifics, just trust me, in some cases the combination of two modules into one will make site running easier and faster, meaning a change in relative isk income and an impact in EVE economy. this has to be studied.
Garai Nolen Xyjax NICE Inter-Celestial Enterprises 44	Posted - 2015.07.28 22:49:37 - [90] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Garai Nolen wrote: ... Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Have you run the sleeper caches? ... The reason for the two modules is as I stated previously: enforced fitting choices. If I'm exploring, non-combat, I only fit a data analyzer if I have spare fitting I already don't care about. The current state of data sites makes the fitting argument irrelevant. Sleeper caches would be a great potential exception, except... combat. Any ship capable of solo'ing them is already facing refit downtime and carrying a mobile depot. Fitting choices lose relevance when you can refit anywhere within 60s and already have to anyway in order to switch between combat , hacking, and travel roles.... That's interesting as I solo all the sleeper caches whenever I find them without the need to refit, refit can help if you know which resists to shift to for the next damage type but to be honest I don't normally bother as it isn't necessary in the right ship. Time is a factor on these sites, if you don't want someone coming in and despawning the site or worse triggering the nastiness then you'd better be quick. I guess my point was simply that fitting for these just isn't a problem for explo cruisers in general. I imagine the Limited Sleeper Cache makes frigate fitting somewhat interesting, the same way trying to fit a covops frig for ghost sites can be pretty tight. So yeah I accept that for a few situations when you are forced into frigates and sites have interesting/unique mechanics, there can be some non-trivial fitting decisions. Except for ghost sites the frigate tradeoffs would exist even post merge, since you can already use either analyzer type. Generally I don't think those cases are providing sufficient gameplay value to justify not merging these skills. EVEoj - EVE Online JavaScript library: http://eve-oj.xyjax.com/

Aralieus Shadowbane Syndicate 265	Posted - 2015.07.29 00:06:33 - [91] - Quote I can dig it. Also make data sites not suck so hard. Oderint Dum Metuant
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2992	Posted - 2015.07.29 01:01:55 - [92] - Quote Aralieus wrote: Also make data sites not suck so hard. Please do tell how? Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Luscius Uta 153	Posted - 2015.07.29 05:42:50 - [93] - Quote Supporting this idea, I have both skills at V and it was annoying to basically train the same thing twice. Sadly, I don't remember if CCP ever merged skills (on the contrary, they are more likely to separate them - Destroyers, Battlecruiser, Scout drones) so I don't have any hopes.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1463	Posted - 2015.07.29 08:45:01 - [94] - Quote Garai Nolen wrote: ... I guess my point was simply that fitting for these just isn't a problem for explo cruisers in general. I imagine the Limited Sleeper Cache makes frigate fitting somewhat interesting, the same way trying to fit a covops frig for ghost sites can be pretty tight. So yeah I accept that for a few situations when you are forced into frigates and sites have interesting/unique mechanics, there can be some non-trivial fitting decisions. Except for ghost sites the frigate tradeoffs would exist even post merge, since you can already use either analyzer type. Generally I don't think those cases are providing sufficient gameplay value to justify not merging these skills. In hisec it's not such an issue as you can drop the depot for swapping out (though I don't, I'm happy with the fits I have) but in lo and null sec this becomes much more of an issue, especially since dropping a depot is a red flag for scanning down in those areas. My point is that rather than removing skills and choices the gameplay should be enhanced to make exploration richer and give more meaning to having the two skills. As for training both skills to V right now trust me, having done so gives me a huge advantage ion the sleeper caches over someone who hasn't. You would be very lucky to clear a standard site on tech I analyzers I think. My suggestion for an improved explo experience would be that hacking sites contain both data and relic cans that contain loot, but also contain data cans that control the environment in the same way that the sleeper caches use them. Successful hack opens up new areas, drags in more cans, switches of/on damaging effects etc. Also there should be escalations but you need to successfully hack every can in the site to trigger them. Basically enrich the gameplay rather than dilute the existing game. I 100% agree with those who have suggested that faction items be built from BPC's and loot from these sites too, this would improve the market, exploration and industry all in one hit.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1423	Posted - 2015.07.29 10:06:04 - [95] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: Aralieus wrote: Also make data sites not suck so hard. Please do tell how? Make data sites drop the raw materials we use to make implants. Then have the LP stores and loot drops stop providing complete implants - but rather only sell the BPC for the implants. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1463	Posted - 2015.07.29 10:41:27 - [96] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: Aralieus wrote: Also make data sites not suck so hard. Please do tell how? Make data sites drop the raw materials we use to make implants. Then have the LP stores and loot drops stop providing complete implants - but rather only sell the BPC for the implants. Currently implant parts come from PI so I'd keep it that way for those, I'd have the data sites drop parts for Faction modules instead, with relic sites providing other parts and BPC's. Make the data sites drop the less rare items and the BPC's (they are data after all) and the relic sites drop the more rare items and maybe BPC's too to balance the sites.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1463	Posted - 2015.07.29 11:00:05 - [97] - Quote Xe'Cara'eos wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: instead of merging these into one, they should be made more distinct from each other. this gets my vote THIS! I want to see an archaeology minigame like digging trenches! I'll need a faction beard and pipe to improve my success chances.
Dino Zavr Shadow Owls 48	Posted - 2015.07.29 11:49:23 - [98] - Quote Hi Scripting the unified analayzer for different can types is a very good idea, moreover, this may lead to further diversification like manufacturing cans (bpcs), science cans (datacores), materials.. etc implement the system like of those little pesky catch-me-if-u-can flying away containers The suggestion to make better sites harder to scan is, actually, a proper idea. When I arrive at highsec relic site i OFTEN discover there already are let's say Cheetah and Imicus racing to reach the last can first. On the other side, I still had not faced huge competiton while clearing Standard Sleeper Cache alone in my Startious. Why, you might ask? It takes some skills to scan down Sleeper cahces and complaints "why the heck i gain only 84% at a data site?" are very much common in the Russian help channel where I hangout most of my ingame time. Contemporary situation with exploration is that the most of highsec signatures are accessible with astero frigate and all skills at 2 which takes about one day training, sure this is great for New Players Experience, but on the other hand it actually does not provoke newbies investing their time to train skills up to level 5 and to implement some thinking to fit their exploration ships. Introduction of Sleepers cache sites was a step in the prpoer direction. Imho the entire exploration now requires some "rebalancing"(tm) signatures strenths and sites complexity to become something motivating to reward good skills and well-tuned fits, well, like Sleeper cahes. The idea of escalating exploration sites into expeditions is also great. I'd also like the entire site to despawn in 10..15 minutes after first warp-in. Tnanks
Spugg Galdon Nisroc Angels 733	Posted - 2015.07.29 12:04:30 - [99] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: All right let's face it: There are no meaningful differences between these skills. They take a significant time for new players to train, but don't offer significantly different risks or benefits, except that data loot is mostly garbage. Yet die hard explorers feel compelled to carry and or fit both modules around, even though they result in identical minigames and mechanics. Hell, some newer exploration sites, like Ghost Sites, don't even care which module you use! So let's end the charade. Merge both skills into Hacking, make all current data and relic sites "hacking" sites and just make things simpler and less arbitrarily silly. This means less arbitrary training time, fewer wasted ship midslots, and no need to explain why "archeology" is a computer hacking game. The side bonus is hacking "data" sites wont be as bad since the training and fitting requirements being halved adds some value to your day. Give people Hacking to whichever level of the two existing skills is higher, and give them the lower skill's SP as freely distributable bonus SP. Whaddya think? Hey Chance, I've been thinking about your initial post into the thread and the way that it is put forward is bothering me. This post is simply lobbying for support of what appears to be your idea or at least an idea put forward to you by someone close to you. Although, generally speaking, this isn't actually an issue, the problem comes when we look at human behavior. The fact that you are a member of the CSM means that when you speak, people are going to listen. They will also probably say things and act differently simply because you are a CSM member (although, you were popular and semi famous in EvE before you were elected) to potentially fall in your favour. I think you really should have presented this issue in a far more open and unbiased format. You really shouldn't have made a suggestion that has such a binary answer. This should have been put forward in a far more structured fashion that spoke from both sides of the (percieved) issue and probably spoke about the hacking profession as a general whole. I do know that you mean well but I do think people have "odd" behavior on these forums when it comes to replying to or getting a reply from a "Dev"/"CSM"/"GM" ticker.
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 197	Posted - 2015.07.29 14:39:28 - [100] - Quote Spugg Galdon wrote: Chance Ravinne wrote: All right let's face it: There are no meaningful differences between these skills. They take a significant time for new players to train, but don't offer significantly different risks or benefits, except that data loot is mostly garbage. Yet die hard explorers feel compelled to carry and or fit both modules around, even though they result in identical minigames and mechanics. Hell, some newer exploration sites, like Ghost Sites, don't even care which module you use! So let's end the charade. Merge both skills into Hacking, make all current data and relic sites "hacking" sites and just make things simpler and less arbitrarily silly. This means less arbitrary training time, fewer wasted ship midslots, and no need to explain why "archeology" is a computer hacking game. The side bonus is hacking "data" sites wont be as bad since the training and fitting requirements being halved adds some value to your day. Give people Hacking to whichever level of the two existing skills is higher, and give them the lower skill's SP as freely distributable bonus SP. Whaddya think? Hey Chance, I've been thinking about your initial post into the thread and the way that it is put forward is bothering me. This post is simply lobbying for support of what appears to be your idea or at least an idea put forward to you by someone close to you. Although, generally speaking, this isn't actually an issue, the problem comes when we look at human behavior. The fact that you are a member of the CSM means that when you speak, people are going to listen. They will also probably say things and act differently simply because you are a CSM member (although, you were popular and semi famous in EvE before you were elected) to potentially fall in your favour. I think you really should have presented this issue in a far more open and unbiased format. You really shouldn't have made a suggestion that has such a binary answer. This should have been put forward in a far more structured fashion that spoke from both sides of the (percieved) issue and probably spoke about the hacking profession as a general whole. I do know that you mean well but I do think people have "odd" behavior on these forums when it comes to replying to or getting a reply from a "Dev"/"CSM"/"GM" ticker. I hope people listen. and that instead of trying and failing to make data and relic different they just combine them. CCP has a track record of not updating things they put into place even if broken or useless so giving them just 1 system to monitor and update vs having 2 the first option is the right way to go. Look at data now currently its a separate system and it is worthless outside of very specific sites that I'm not even sure can be run solo without changing fits (I always change fits or run alts have't tried solo with no depot)

Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 59	Posted - 2015.07.29 14:43:05 - [101] - Quote Spugg Galdon wrote: I think you really should have presented this issue in a far more open and unbiased format. You really shouldn't have made a suggestion that has such a binary answer. Chance Ravinne wrote: BRB resigning from CSM because I have a subjective opinion on what constitutes fun. I'll let Xenuria know where my parking spot was. I really have to remember to put this quote somewhere more readily available.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1463	Posted - 2015.07.29 16:01:03 - [102] - Quote Lady Rift wrote: ...Look at data now currently its a separate system and it is worthless outside of very specific sites that I'm not even sure can be run solo without changing fits (I always change fits or run alts have't tried solo with no depot) They can very much be run solo with the skills fully trained up and actually learning how to defeat the defenses. All explo should move in this direction rather than asking for it to be degraded further.
AutoPuppet Tong Alliance of Free Stars 0	Posted - 2015.07.29 17:45:28 - [103] - Quote I fully support OP's original idea. Data sites aren't worth the opportunity costs anyway, so the only effect is I get 768k unallocated sp, which is great!
Morihei Akachi Nishida Corporation 178	Posted - 2015.07.29 18:15:39 - [104] - Quote How is OPGÇÖs suggestion different, in principle, from calling for a merger of all the minerals into one? Minerals can only be used for one thingGÇöbuilding thingsGÇöso it's pointless, on the logic of the original post, to have eight of them. Better yet, combine all the ores into one as well. Then no one would need to waste time on training different skills for refining them, or ISK on different mining crystals. These things are just as much -+needless complications-½ as the fact that Archaeology and Hacking are two different skills, or that the activities require two different modules. Eve has traditionally entailed a great deal of delayed satisfaction: one waits longer here than in some other MMOs in order to do the things one wants to do. The theory has been that this enhances the sense of achievement when those things finally become possible. I would be sorry to see the game give this up. OPGÇÖs suggestion, in its original form, seems to me to want to go in exactly that direction. I do, however, support the suggestions for making Archaeology and Hacking more distinct; I can think of no good reason why these activities should be identical. "Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and donGÇÖt belong in Eve Online.
M1k3y Koontz Respawn Disabled Initiative Mercenaries 766	Posted - 2015.07.29 19:10:49 - [105] - Quote Data sites need help, and merging them with relics is the most reasonable answer. Do we really want CCP trying to add a new exploration mechanic again? Remember the spew containers? How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
M1k3y Koontz Respawn Disabled Initiative Mercenaries 766	Posted - 2015.07.29 19:13:20 - [106] - Quote Morihei Akachi wrote: How is OPGÇÖs suggestion different, in principle, from calling for a merger of all the minerals into one? Minerals can only be used for one thingGÇöbuilding thingsGÇöso it's pointless, on the logic of the original post, to have eight of them. Better yet, combine all the ores into one as well. Then no one would need to waste time on training different skills for refining them, or ISK on different mining crystals. These things are just as much -+needless complications-½ as the fact that Archaeology and Hacking are two different skills, or that the activities require two different modules. Eve has traditionally entailed a great deal of delayed satisfaction: one waits longer here than in some other MMOs in order to do the things one wants to do. The theory has been that this enhances the sense of achievement when those things finally become possible. I would be sorry to see the game give this up. OPGÇÖs suggestion, in its original form, seems to me to want to go in exactly that direction. I do, however, support the suggestions for making Archaeology and Hacking more distinct; I can think of no good reason why these activities should be identical. Strawman arguement, OP isnt trying to homogonize loot, but instead get rid of an activity nobody participates in. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2992	Posted - 2015.07.29 19:18:19 - [107] - Quote The OP is not looking at the long term repercussions of doing this. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Rivr Luzade Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi 1721	Posted - 2015.07.29 19:23:25 - [108] - Quote M1k3y Koontz wrote: Strawman arguement, OP isnt trying to homogonize loot, but instead get rid of an activity nobody participates in. Excuse me? What activity is it "nobody participates in"? M1k3y Koontz wrote: Data sites need help, and merging them with relics is the most reasonable answer. Do we really want CCP trying to add a new exploration mechanic again? Remember the spew containers? I liked the spew containers. It actually made you vulnerable while you were trying to catch the most valuable cans. Now it's again just opening the container, grabbing the stuff and moving on to the next can, all in a range from the container where you can just cloak if someone decloaks next to you. You better watch your own strawmen arguments. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 199	Posted - 2015.07.29 20:55:16 - [109] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Lady Rift wrote: ...Look at data now currently its a separate system and it is worthless outside of very specific sites that I'm not even sure can be run solo without changing fits (I always change fits or run alts have't tried solo with no depot) They can very much be run solo with the skills fully trained up and actually learning how to defeat the defenses. All explo should move in this direction rather than asking for it to be degraded further. can it be done without changing fits in the field?
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2992	Posted - 2015.07.29 21:07:54 - [110] - Quote Lady Rift wrote: Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Lady Rift wrote: ...Look at data now currently its a separate system and it is worthless outside of very specific sites that I'm not even sure can be run solo without changing fits (I always change fits or run alts have't tried solo with no depot) They can very much be run solo with the skills fully trained up and actually learning how to defeat the defenses. All explo should move in this direction rather than asking for it to be degraded further. can it be done without changing fits in the field? If you are talking sleeper cache sites I do them all the time with one ship and no refits. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors

Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 1261	Posted - 2015.07.29 21:24:39 - [111] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Daya sites being generally poor does not mean that CCP needs to drop data hacking. It means they need to balance the sites properly. The sleeper caches are the best exploration change recentlyand that requires excellent hacking skills of both flavours to run effectively. Exploration should be extended along these lines, not cut down and simplified. All right, but in what meaningful way are using data and relic analyzers in these sites different? If they were just called Data Analyzer Alpha and Data Analyzer Beta would it be any worse? The meaningful way they are different is that you have to fill a second slot if you want to be able to do both without refitting. You have to choose between tank/tackle/data/relic. You have to make choices. Choices are what make this game great. Here's an example: I was gassing in a wh last night. A co-worker shows up at my door. Turns out I offered him my blueberry patch so that he and his son could pick some. I forgot until the doorbell rang. So I had a choice. Get everything safe and go see to the blueberries or let the prospects stay at it. I chose to take the risk. I left 3 characters in different sitest and went out to pick some blueberries. I made a choice. For one of my alts it was a bad choice. Just as I got back to the computer SSC dropped a small force on one of my characters. I tried to get the little ship out, but it wasn't to be so. Wonked and podded. In route back to the wh. sigh. Another example: SSC comes into our wh and sees 3 ships gassing (well 2,the other was gassing in the next wh). They have to choose one to start the blood bath with. I'm not sure why they picked the noobiest one. First come - first server, least likely to get away - only they know. Anyways, they made a choice. Based on the timing they were going to get one. Had they picked one of the other characters they would have hit the imlant jackpot. Decent hardwires in one and my first set of high grades ever PLUS a decent set of hardwires in the other. We both had choices and we both chose poorly. That's how the night went. All because of choices. I'm against taking choices out of the game. If the sites are too much the same, then change one or both. Don't smoosh them together into one. -1. Your idea lacks creativity, reduces pilot choices and removes something from the game. You should not be re-elected to CSM. We need clear thinkers that add to the game. Not dull boys that take away. (now that I re read it - I'd like to add a hearty raspberry sound to the -1)
Tzar Sinak Mythic Heights 173	Posted - 2015.07.29 22:14:17 - [112] - Quote Once upon a time the sites were very different. In fact you needed different probes to hunt them down. The mechanic of opening the target was the same. Over time probing was streamlined with the advent of WHs. It was an overall improvement to game play. With Odyssey came additional probe changes for scanning that further streamlined the scanning activity. This update also brought the mini game. Scanning became very simple. Everyone could find near everything with minimal scan skills and enough time. Practice was all that was required. The mini game was generally regarded as being better than just click/wait/receive bacon. Some people hated it because of the distraction away form D Scan and the fact the hacking window was huge and could not be moved. Others liked the new challenge. The loot spew was despised by most and liked by few. It was eventually removed. One thing in common with these events was the barrier to entry or hacking exploration was continuously reduced. There was a time that scanning required planning and lot of practice to become competent. Anoms could only be discovered by the ship scanner which only had a range of 4AU hence you had to want to discover anoms and travel from planet to planet ship scanning. Not everything was available as soon as you enter system. Now a suggestion comes along to combine the hacking skills. This suggestion continues the trend to lower the barrier of entry. Everything listed above has devalued exploration. Dramatically. Of course it is possible to make a living exclusively on exploration (hacking not combat) but it is a ghost of its former self. CCP has done some good things recently. They have added more hacking content. This is a good thing. However it could be better. As mentioned several times in this thread, hacking needs to be iterated on. With Odyssey it was suggested by CCP that the hacking tools be an item to put into your cargo hold to be used else where. To have the tools as manufacture items that can be sold. It never came to be. I only do combat exploration now. I recently gave up on the hacking sites. The rewards were butchered on the market with Odyssey (easy accessability) and the mini game became very easy and predicable with practice. Chance, your observation of the hacking being basically the same is correct but merging them is the incorrect approach. To merge them is to take away an opportunity to breath life into exploration again. The "hacking" of both sites needs to be iterated on in two opposite directions. Data sites should be very modern and futuristic (and should include abandoned POSes). You are attempting to steal secrets etc.. Relic sites should be OLD, delicate and dirty. Do not merge, iterate in opposite directions. Remember, we want new players but please remember that older players, old vets, would like something worthwhile. Hydrostatic Podcast First class listening of all things EVE Check out the Youtube Channel and be sure to subscribe!
Arla Sarain 572	Posted - 2015.07.30 22:33:56 - [113] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: M1k3y Koontz wrote: Strawman arguement, OP isnt trying to homogonize loot, but instead get rid of an activity nobody participates in. Excuse me? What activity is it "nobody participates in"? Hacking data sites. As opposed to hacking relic sites.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2995	Posted - 2015.07.30 22:39:54 - [114] - Quote Arla Sarain wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: M1k3y Koontz wrote: Strawman arguement, OP isnt trying to homogonize loot, but instead get rid of an activity nobody participates in. Excuse me? What activity is it "nobody participates in"? Hacking data sites. As opposed to hacking relic sites. If nobody was hacking data sites they would be valuable. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Arla Sarain 572	Posted - 2015.07.30 22:42:02 - [115] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: Arla Sarain wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: M1k3y Koontz wrote: Strawman arguement, OP isnt trying to homogonize loot, but instead get rid of an activity nobody participates in. Excuse me? What activity is it "nobody participates in"? Hacking data sites. As opposed to hacking relic sites. If nobody was hacking data sites they would be valuable. Why, cos of supply and demand? Not if other activities in the game provided the same items that hacking sites do. Which is what happens.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2995	Posted - 2015.07.30 23:02:07 - [116] - Quote Arla Sarain wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: Arla Sarain wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: M1k3y Koontz wrote: Strawman arguement, OP isnt trying to homogonize loot, but instead get rid of an activity nobody participates in. Excuse me? What activity is it "nobody participates in"? Hacking data sites. As opposed to hacking relic sites. If nobody was hacking data sites they would be valuable. Why, cos of supply and demand? Not if other activities in the game provided the same items that hacking sites do. Which is what happens. Excel for decryptors which only come from data sites and are required for invention. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Rayzilla Zaraki Yin Jian Enterprises 299	Posted - 2015.07.30 23:39:03 - [117] - Quote I dont get the data site hate in this thread. I have had extraordinary results from data sites. Where I like to explore about one in ten sites gives an escalation. The last escalation I got had BPCs which netted me a little over three buhbillion ISK. Both are valuable, but I still support the OP's proposal: merge the modules and skills into one. I'd also support giving the archeology sites a different mini game if they could come up with one that I cant find on Facebook. Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues.
Dino Zavr Shadow Owls 50	Posted - 2015.07.31 09:32:07 - [118] - Quote Hi Just to mention, that introduction of Exploration sites possible escalation (like expeditions) while the trigger is that all cans are opened by one player (or members of one fleet, in this case escalation if happens is granted to the one who has opened the last can) might positively affect the issue of long despawning of partially hacked sites. Please, CCP, make it happen! Thanks
Rivr Luzade Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi 1730	Posted - 2015.07.31 09:49:45 - [119] - Quote Arla Sarain wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: M1k3y Koontz wrote: Strawman arguement, OP isnt trying to homogonize loot, but instead get rid of an activity nobody participates in. Excuse me? What activity is it "nobody participates in"? Hacking data sites. As opposed to hacking relic sites. Decryptors come only from Data sites. Components for the production of Cosmos and other items come only from Data sites. And as I mention that, I would like to suggest again to remove all the stupid High-tech garbage from the Data sites and in addition make the components (for instance these at the top) mandatory production materials for faction item and ship BPCs. And on a personal note: I run almost every Data Site I can find in my area of space because they allow me to be independent from the decryptor market, as I can satisfy my entire decryptor needs with them. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1471	Posted - 2015.07.31 10:06:55 - [120] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: ... And on a personal note: I run almost every Data Site I can find in my area of space because they allow me to be independent from the decryptor market, as I can satisfy my entire decryptor needs with them. They also frequently trigger another sig when cleared which can give you a nice headstart on it if it's a combat site.

Rivr Luzade Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi 1775	Posted - 2015.07.31 10:36:15 - [121] - Quote That's a unique feature in Drone space. Data sites in the 4 big pirate factions' regions don't have escalations. Semi-Unfortunately. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
epicurus ataraxia Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude 1765	Posted - 2015.08.10 19:44:49 - [122] - Quote Merging data and relic site skills and modules, would make a lot of sense, particuarly as many are literally never fitting data modules any more as they have become effectively worthless. However we need to go beyond this, as anything that alters the volume of sites run devalues the income of the profession. 1.Adding blueprints and components for new hardwires, has some mileage as an idea, (not suggesting implants as they should idealy have the learning aspect removed in the future). 2.New exploration blue loot, that can be used in the new citadel models or sold. 3.Exploration escalations, to hidden but doable exploration sites without reshipping. hard to complete,wi a difficult minigame but balanced with being unable to be warped to without the invitation. iE gate locks behind you on entering. These might help expand the profession without damaging the economics There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE


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