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Joshua Foiritain
Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.08 10:19:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Matori Kar They are just re seeding the lost/destroyed ones, they will come and go with a flash. Thats NO NEW BPOS for the blind, I'll repeat that - NO NEW BPOS.
Actually according to Oveur theyre also looking into seeding new bpos for items that didnt get a whole lot, as the population and t2 capable pilots has increased by a lot since bpos where first released. -----
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Lathaniel
Kill Em All Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.08 10:21:00 -
[62]
I just hope they remember to give me one on my birthday the 22nd of december
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Aziza
Gallente Immobiliare
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Posted - 2006.12.08 19:15:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Doc Extropy [ Main problem is: With a FEW (!) adjustements it could be smooth, fair and fun:
* Give out BPCs only, with good ME and PE and a good number of runs and on a regular basis * Convert all existing BPOs into BPCs * Reconsider invention: instead of T1 -> T2 make it T1 -> named and possibly T2 -> unique
I use T2 BPO's to make T2 BPC and sell it for profit. I invested 12 mil SP and a lot of billions of isk in this and now some clown come out of the closet and suggest to "fix the problem"? STFU! The only problem you people have is no t2 BPO in your hangar. You should get over it and move on. -------------------------
Thank you |
Tachy
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Posted - 2006.12.08 19:24:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Aziza
Originally by: Doc Extropy [ Main problem is: With a FEW (!) adjustements it could be smooth, fair and fun:
* Give out BPCs only, with good ME and PE and a good number of runs and on a regular basis * Convert all existing BPOs into BPCs * Reconsider invention: instead of T1 -> T2 make it T1 -> named and possibly T2 -> unique
I use T2 BPO's to make T2 BPC and sell it for profit. I invested 12 mil SP and a lot of billions of isk in this and now some clown come out of the closet and suggest to "fix the problem"? STFU! The only problem you people have is no t2 BPO in your hangar. You should get over it and move on.
They don't want to know. They only see the huge profit the resellers make by gauging the market. --*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
Slaaght Bana
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.12.08 19:33:00 -
[65]
There are three types of people in this world:
Those who already have a TII BPO Those who want a TII BPO Those who are lying
I endorse this signature! -Suvetar
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Lincoln Armm
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Posted - 2006.12.08 19:34:00 -
[66]
The presence of middleman is a expected part of any free market and does not mean its not operationg on supply and demand. The T@ market is currently an absolutly classic example of when a inelastic supply meets a steadily rising demand. Prices go up.
T2 BPO owners produce as many as they can, they then sell them for as much as they can. If they could produce more they would. There MAY be some cartels in operation that are deliberly limiting production to keep prices higher (alaa the rumored cap recharger II mafia), but this is not nessecary.
Imagine that you have a magic machine which produces a magic golden egg one an hour. At first only a few people knew about it soyou could only get a smal price fore your egg, but soon they become wildly popular. You can still only produce one egg an hour. But now many people want that single egg. Some of them are willing to pay a great deal. Perhaps your the poor honest sort that just keeps selling to for that same small price. THIS WILL MAKE NO DIFFERENCE! WHy? because some of these lucky purchasers will turn arround and sell their eggs to someone willing to pay much more.
Perhaps they don't feel "right" making a obscene profit and sell it at only a modest markup? Again IT DOESN"T MATTER. The next person in line will just sell it. The price of the golden egsss will bubble up to meet the current demand. The unseen hand of the market will out.
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Justin Thyme
Gallente The Salvage and Reclamation Guild
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Posted - 2006.12.08 19:41:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Justin Thyme on 08/12/2006 19:40:47 I just want to be able to buy a T2 Med Drone and not have to pay 3 mil. for something that has a base price of 95k. That would make my day.
"Hunting rats is like minning for scrap metal... and occationaly striking gold" -- Justin Thyme
I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thieves. -- Justin Thyme |
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2006.12.08 20:14:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 08/12/2006 20:16:24
Originally by: Shin Ra [...]The reason you pay so much for t2 mods AND named mods: Re-Sellers!!!!
You should be screaming for CCP to nerf reselling if everyone is so upset.
Re-Sellers purchased ships and mods for a low price and sell for a higher price. It takes a lot of initial capital to pull this off but it can be done for almost any non t1 item. Now, I don't pretend to understand excatly how resellers work, it is a very cloak and dagger world. But everyone ignores just how big of a contribution these guys make to the high prices. Given the data they have, its very difficult for CCP to analyse reselling patterns thus judge how to react. [...]
do youreally believe what you're saying there...? well at least you're honest enough to mention you have no clue how resellers have to work nor how t2 owners do it, since you are neither.... but yeah, let's scream something surprising (but completely untrue)
for enlightenment: resellers are the ones surfing the market laws: looking for bargains and selling them elsewhere for a least 10% more to make the travelling worthwhile, to overcome the 1%-3% fees and to have room for a little undercutting. in the end, expect no more than 5% profit. so far so good.
now there's a few special cases:- you found a t2 bugger and have a fair business relationship with him: he builds, you distribute. he sets the price, which is still a bit lower than any bargain, but still refers to the current market. you're still left with the usual logistics, fees and whatnot - results in just a little more profit and/or luxury to undercut competitors. in the end, expect 10-15% profit.
- you monopolize an item in an entire region. you buy all sell orders around (or just the "relevant" ones in close proximity to the local hub) and throw them back in at 20-30% more expensive. can only be done, if you're sure there's no cheaper regions from which your competitors will import those items; or the margin is too small; ooooor you monopolize all regions (bring more than 10bil for that last case or way more for the really expensive/popular stuff)
- work with buy orders. once you found the nerves to skill beyond your tiny 60 orders, you may think of running berserk with buy orders. be the highest "bidder" where you somehow discovered a not-so-greedy producer will use them (yes, those do exist here and there). rest assured, LOTS of competition down there, too -> lots of work to remain on top of the buy order list. expect roughly 20-30% profit. however, you still have to park lots of money in those orders (unless skilled very far), you need to bump each order a least 10 times a day (or at least _the_ day you are sure the next batch is getting done) and still bring that mostly huge batch to the proper systems for selling.
all of these still show, how much resellers have to be lucky with the market. there's still plenty of chances, you did not find the best bargain and a competitor will undercut you below your profit area which already ends where the fees begin. in the very end, everything depends on at what price you can sell something. and that's where the buyer comes in. _he_ is the one willing to pay up to 20mil for an invulnerability field II. all other involved parties refer to that price. resellers even have to. you could just go for an eutectics cap recharger for ~4mil instead of a cap recharger II fnr 20mil but nooooo.... just the best, eh?
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Egil Kolsto
Caldari Collwood Collective
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Posted - 2006.12.08 20:32:00 -
[69]
Personally, I hope for cheaper Hulks!
I wish everyone the best, I never even entered the BPO lottery and have no intention of doing it. Just drop the Hulk from 500 -> 300 and I'd be happy:)
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Harisdrop
Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.12.08 20:37:00 -
[70]
The history of Tech II
Castor: Woot bring on the lottery. RMR: Woot bring on the lottery Kali: Woot bring on the lottery
History of player feeling on tech II
Castor: Huh whats this. RMR: Man I wish there was a way I could get more RP Kali: I dont want to be left out soo change this thing before I whine more.
EVE - CCP take on tech II
Its not fair its luck. Put your cards in and out of 3billion RP you might win a tech II. Good luck we all want one. -------------------------------------
New NPC |
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Sorela
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.12.08 21:00:00 -
[71]
It amazes me how some of you can play a game about economics for years but not even take a minute to spend a thought thinking about how the simple concept of supply and demand works.
HACS are expensive because the supply is nowhere near the demand.
No matter what this fact will not change.
Even if one of you who's angry about overpricing get the BPO and you start selling your ships for a supposedly "reasonable" price then someone with a brain and enough avarice to use it will instantly buy the ship at your "reasonable" price then resell it for the price the market will bare.
Maybe if they seed enough BPO's the price will go down but I doubt they'll do that since they planned for Invention to fill that role.
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Paari Cuman
Windsor Trade Organization The Imperial Order
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Posted - 2006.12.08 21:28:00 -
[72]
::quotes everyone:: "Waaaaaaaaaaaahhh I want game mechanics to work for me!!!!!!"
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.12.08 22:54:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider [...] you monopolize an item in an entire region. you buy all sell orders around (or just the "relevant" ones in close proximity to the local hub) and throw them back in at 20-30% more expensive. can only be done, if you're sure there's no cheaper regions from which your competitors will import those items; or the margin is too small; ooooor you monopolize all regions (bring more than 10bil for that last case or way more for the really expensive/popular stuff) [...]
Now imagine a limited supply and huge wallets, maybe fueled by an Allianz. Do you think that market manipulations are impossible?
I know that I can corner the market for one or two items with my very limited cash. I have seen it done to about every interesting named and T2 item. --*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
Apollo Balthar
Minmatar The Sausage Smuggling Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.08 23:59:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Syrec Edited by: Syrec on 08/12/2006 06:46:29 t2 lottery isn't a very good system
random IWINs
I'll have random I-win's over I-win farming anytime of the week.
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WTS: tech2 clue |
Gamer4liff
Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2006.12.09 00:08:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Apollo Balthar
Originally by: Syrec Edited by: Syrec on 08/12/2006 06:46:29 t2 lottery isn't a very good system
random IWINs
I'll have random I-win's over I-win farming anytime of the week.
I support this idea/concept.
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Ravelin Eb
Minmatar Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2006.12.09 00:11:00 -
[76]
*plots his 60+ jump course to r&d agent*
"Vagabond BPO you shall not escape my grasp this time around."
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L0max
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Posted - 2006.12.09 00:31:00 -
[77]
I wish CCP would just get invention working properly before they put more BPO's to the lottery, as it's obvious that the lottery system is just so flawed, not necassarily rewarding BPO's fairly. I have seen it argued to death on these forums since I started playing eve over a year ago. It's obvious they now are not going to come up with something better than this dam lottery. I know a lot of players with insane amounts of RP, people who have just gotten into RnD over the last few months in anticipation of invention still have little to bugger all hope of picking up a BPO. It also benefits existing BPO holders who do not cash in their RP for data cores etc, disadvantaging new players who have invested heavily into RnD.
Invention is a step in the right direction but in it's current form has fallen well short, the lottery needs to stop and a fair system need to be put in place for the people willing to do the work to follow invention through. (i hate to think of the hours I have wasted grinding missions for standings, isk and skill training time on dam science skills). I have put the work in and will continue to do so if i know there is a reward at the end of it all, as nothing should just be randomly given away.
If they seed high run BPC's in the current lottery then when invention gets going use that to release BPC's to the player base. If people want to invest the time in RnD and gain RP quickly they get more BPC etc. Continued work = reward. Not gain ****e load of RP buy doing nothing then prey.
arrrrrg makes my mad....
My 2c L0max..
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2006.12.09 00:32:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Tachy
Originally by: Roemy Schneider [...] you monopolize an item in an entire region. you buy all sell orders around (or just the "relevant" ones in close proximity to the local hub) and throw them back in at 20-30% more expensive. can only be done, if you're sure there's no cheaper regions from which your competitors will import those items; or the margin is too small; ooooor you monopolize all regions (bring more than 10bil for that last case or way more for the really expensive/popular stuff) [...]
Now imagine a limited supply and huge wallets, maybe fueled by an Allianz. Do you think that market manipulations are impossible?
I know that I can corner the market for one or two items with my very limited cash. I have seen it done to about every interesting named and T2 item.
certainly, it can be done. question is; will it be bought? you see, once the item costs too much, more and more people will not be able to afford it. the complicated part is to find out, at which level you still have enough customers before the next delivery comes in (be that large transports from 0.0 bringing in their best-named loot or t2 builders with a sparkling batch of modues). so the answer to whose fault it is can mostly be found on the side of demand. if they wouldn't buy, we (the resellers and eventually the producers who'd loose their distros when there's no profitable reselling) would have to lower the prices until we can serve more (but less wealthy) players.
so in the end we have: a growing number of players (just celebrated 33k users - 30k was, what?, a month ago?) getting wealthier every day - opposing a fixed output of the t2 production. and in most cases, people don't go for second best. otherwise we'd just have a growing number of pilots finding best named stuff across the board.
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fuze
Gallente Chosen Path Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.12.09 01:25:00 -
[79]
Didn't GM say they would be keeping an eye out for T2 BPO being destroyed and all? And now it's released in another single go. Sup with that?
Being a man I still can achieve multiple sarcasms. |
Oku Kee'lus
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Posted - 2006.12.09 01:36:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Aziza I use T2 BPO's to make T2 BPC and sell it for profit. I invested 12 mil SP and a lot of billions of isk in this and now some clown come out of the closet and suggest to "fix the problem"? STFU! The only problem you people have is no t2 BPO in your hangar. You should get over it and move on.
Yeah... and the next time something I bought on the market drops in value, I'll come here and tell everyone to shut up
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Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2006.12.09 15:26:00 -
[81]
T2 items should not be the norm on all ships flown in eve. T2 should be a luxury and is for some items. As Dark Shikari and Shin Ra pointed out earlier most t2 bpos dont make huge money, yes their are a few that make great money but most of them for the work it takes to make them do not make money.
There is no way atm to have a better system than the lotto.
Why? Well a 1 month old character under the current system at least has a chance. Yes older players have the advantage as they should.
Letting all of eve have t2 stuff makes the risk of putting expensive mods on or flying a expensive ship it where "hey i just lost a hac with all t2 mods, no big deal" It should be a big deal.
Having a auction for new t2 bpos, who do you think will by them, the rich. Older players.
Making them where you can grind away and get a T2 bpo. How is that fair? Its not, unless you want eve to become WOW Jr. . Some of us have jobs and families and cannot grind away 23/7.
With the amount of money that players can make in a short period of time no one in eve is excluded from T2 bpos. yes you will have to work but you can get them from buying them and trading for them.
EXAMPLE - I have the Sleipnir bpo. I got the Sleipnir BPO by TRADING the Damnation, Purifier, and Propator bpos. I got the Purifier bpo by trading the Assualt missile launcher 2 bpo which i got from my agent. I bought the propator bpo for 2 billion. I got my Damnation bpo by trading my Sacrilidge bpo. the Sac i got from mining, mission running, npcing, and selling battleship bpcs. I bought the Sac bpo for 8 billion.
So to recap, a t2 mod bpo and 10 billion isk got me the Sleipnir bpo. so its all about hardwork and trades and anyone can get a high end t2 bpo.
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.12.09 15:34:00 -
[82]
One of the devs stated that they're balancing the ships and modules around T2 - thus the fantastic changes to things like Quake T2 ammo ... --*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.12.09 17:17:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Serj Darek We all know you don't want the t2 bpo's on the market because you want to have untold billions of ISK for your self :P
Well, yeah. Your point?
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.12.09 18:47:00 -
[84]
Originally by: fuze Didn't GM say they would be keeping an eye out for T2 BPO being destroyed and all? And now it's released in another single go. Sup with that?
At a guess, it's BoB vs ASCN. With ASCN being the industrial heart of Eve, and BoB no doubt having their own sizable share of the T2BPO pie, quite a few BPOs may have destroyed recently. Add in others lost over the years, and a good sized release makes sense.
It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Aimez- "oh ****, this is empire......."
Thanks for the loot, and next time you go out to pirate, carry more tech 2 plz =) |
Herculite
Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.12.09 19:23:00 -
[85]
The imporant thing here is to keep a broken system still broken.
Just have R&D agents give out long run BPC's at a constant rate, problems solved.
Instead its 'Who wants to be a mega billionaire!'
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RtoZ
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Posted - 2006.12.10 04:03:00 -
[86]
Edited by: RtoZ on 10/12/2006 04:06:14 Supply and demand:
If you have low supply and high demand, prices go up.
If you have high supply and low demand prices go down.
Market or Equilibrium Price:
The place where what sellers are willing to sell for and buyers are willing to buy for is called market or equilibrium price. This is the price the product will sell for. Price is negotiation between the buyers and the sellers.
Fiddle with these laws all you want, but in the end the prices will stabalize at a price buyers are willing to buy for and sellers are willing to sell for. Faction frigates sell for many times the price of tech frigates, and only because of rarity value. More BPO's being used would have the effect of increasing supply, untill it matched demand and it would flat level there.
Personally I would seed a lot more BPO's on the market and make it a high volume low margin market instead of a low volume high margin market fueled by scarcity, but that's just me, either way some people will make billions, some people will lose money.
As for resale, which I admit I've done a fair amount of, it simply normalizes supply and demand, in the end sellers will only sell at a price buyers will buy for and vice versa, so the net effect on actual priceing, if said item is scarce, is null. Resellers do not add or subtract items from the market, not do they force players to overpay.
Meh.
Oh, and one more thing, an interesting thing to study if possible would be the effect of suicide ganking on BPO original couriers, as im thinking this is every bit as responsible for the scarcity of tech II items as is the BoB-ASCN conflict.
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Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.12.10 04:39:00 -
[87]
FIX INVENTION PLEEEEEEEEEEEASE
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Nox Solaria
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Posted - 2006.12.10 04:48:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil Edited by: Sakura Nihil on 08/12/2006 06:30:41
Originally by: Lazy8s
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Dragerest you must be a very bad AF pilot.
^ what he said
Or neither of you guys can fly a T1 frig very well.
Says the nameless alt - before making claims you're a T1 frigate ace, it might help us believe you more if you posted with a main, maybe?
The only way I can imagine an AF getting assuredly beaten by three, much less two, T1 frigs is through EM or possibly nos.
I've seen a T1 frig take on 2 interceptors and an AF and rip them to ribbons before the T1 frig was out of shields. Only the AF got away without shields, armor, or much hull... The T1 frig was at 50% armor by then.
It's not the ship, it's the pilot. Unconventional settings often catch even superior ships flatfooted.
Rest assured, those pilots would avoid that T1 pilot in the future in a similar situation.
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Aphotic Raven
Gallente Spectral Armada Eternal Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.10 04:54:00 -
[89]
Well after much *****ing about how broken the system is ive decided to buy a BPO, assuming they dont get nerfed by the time i have the cash... see you all in a few months =P
Quote: Melicien Tetro: I tried to fight a shark with a pistol underwater once, and I'll be ****ed if he didn't laugh at me and eat me. Sharks need a ******* nerf. True story
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Herring
Pimpology Pimpology in Mining Player
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Posted - 2006.12.10 05:09:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Brutor Shaun Not trying to be funny, but what difference is this going to make?
Do you honestly think the new BPO holders aren't going to become just as greedy? I don't think prices will change much.
Yes, but it will be new greed, not the same old greed we've seen in the past.
Wishing for better mining ships in a system near you. |
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