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Sugar Kyle
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1024
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Posted - 2015.08.21 14:33:24 -
[1] - Quote
Hey there. IGÇÖve been tasked with a little fact finding and IGÇÖd love to get some help in this. IGÇÖve been gathering the complaints, hopes, and dreams of members of faction warfare since I was elected and ramped it up a bit since Fanfest. There is a lot on this plate with proposals and documents and thousands of lines of productive discussion involved in looking towards Faction Warfare's future.
IGÇÖd like to take a minute to focus on the new players entering Faction Warfare. They are suggested to their various militia during the career missions. Some, we hope, will find themselves a corporation and learn. Others cast themselves into the war and plan to learn along the way.
We need to make this better.
IGÇÖve collected lots of hurdles for new players enter FW. From the standings hits that they will take to the lack of a good overview tab to help them sort out who is friend and who is foe there are dozens of things that could make this process smoother. IGÇÖd love to hear your ideas.
I know that we have a lot of high end things to discuss from better PvP rewards to missions god help them and all of us. IGÇÖm paying attention to all of that too. But this is a point IGÇÖd like to hear from you all about. Your personal experiences, your recruiters experiences, the things that you believe will improve your militia and help inject new blood into things.
Like the faction police in high sec. Should we be laughing at them? How do we look at giving militia chat an MOTD or some type of information board with things like militia coms, overview packs, and general help? Standings, oh my oh my, standings. Should pirate frigates be in novice plexes?
And thatGÇÖs just the tip of the iceberg. Please help me unearth the rest.
Member of CSMX - CSMX Weekly Updates
Member of CSM9
Low Sec Lifestyle - An Eve Blog
@Sugar_Kyle
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Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
489
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Posted - 2015.08.21 14:37:44 -
[2] - Quote
Welcome to FW mail from NPC corp with useful information. Basic Militia Overview in Militia chat and FW panel and in welcome to FW email. Contracts to Militia so that corps with established and strong logistics groups can help support newbros with prefit ships. Get rid of allied militia/purple overview issues. Strengthen the response of highsec navy NPCs so that the rats can't be tanked nor dragged away forever. This will still allow speed based attacks (warp in, pew, run away) in enemy highsec. Standings Issues. Smooth out the tier system so Tier1 isn't so bad and Tier4+ isn't so amazingly good. Ban T3Ds from small plexes. Remove aggression from plex rats (solves afk oplexing in a drone boat as well as making sure newbro's aren't taking damage from a freshly spawned NPC while also combatting the enemy).
*reserved for more* |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
292
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Posted - 2015.08.21 15:21:07 -
[3] - Quote
If they want to stay in a NPC corp, maybe swap them to a specific faction NPC corp, so corp chat will be amongst other people in the same militia only, this will help communication quite a bit. |
Veratrix
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
26
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Posted - 2015.08.21 15:28:20 -
[4] - Quote
Militia contracts would be nice. Would let us put up lots of attrition fit stuff that we can get to the general militia population that would make it much easier for them to participate in the big system pushes.
A militia overview pack would be great. Don't set the allied militia blue to start off with(hopefully will be solved with 4 way war), put militia in front of pirate/suspect/criminal.
Don't do high sec shenanigans, so no opinion on the npc rats. Seems like the highsec FW noob should be a bit more protected then they currently are(should join a corp and live in lowsec really), but I have no strong feelings either way.
Missions are obviously much harder for gallente then any other group. I'd actually much rather other groups missions be as difficult as ours as opposed to making ours easier, but I don't really make my isk with missions or care that other people do so I'll let more passionate people expound on that subject.
I know you said this is not what this is about, but I'll still mention every time. Faction standings losses from aoe weapons need to go. Either an exemption for fleet members or getting rid of them altogether. Stopping us for participating in lots of gameplay and tactics open to literally everyone else in game. Quite ridiculous. |
Drackarn
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
66
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Posted - 2015.08.21 15:36:11 -
[5] - Quote
Overview is one of the biggest issues I come across. As a "Security Status Challenged" individual I get many new-bro's charging into my plex and engaging when we are in same militia.
Perhaps the 'pilot in same militia' needs to override the 'Pilot is a filthy piwat'
Another one is the allied militia thing. Once they get the overview right, they then get spanked by someone they thought was friendly but is actually in the allied militia and simply uses that to gank people. I have used this trick before to get close to stabbed farmers and triple scram them. Then again they deserve to die.... horribly.
As someone previously posted, if we decouple the alliances in faction war and go for some 4-way action in FW this won't be an issue.
http://sandciderandspaceships.blogspot.com/
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IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Heiian Conglomerate
1458
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 15:44:08 -
[6] - Quote
Most beginners complain to me about not being able to be taxed on their LP.
An LP Tax would help them a lot.
https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
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X Gallentius
Aliastra Gallente Federation
2903
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Posted - 2015.08.21 15:52:54 -
[7] - Quote
I think the guys above have covered most of the stuff.
Default Militia-specific overview available. Stops newbie awox issues of newbs shooting FW pilots with low standings. Automatic suspect flag in plexes. Keeps noob standings high so they can still live in high sec. Get rid of allied-militia purple OR hammer standings for allied militia kills (Gallente on Minmatar violence, for example). - The current war is defined as Gallente+Minmatar vs. Caldari+Amarr. - Either set the game up so this is true, or break it apart to a real four way war. No ambiguity. Ban high sec station access to opposing militia. Gets rid of high sec station games.
JUSTK is recruiting.
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Sugar Kyle
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1024
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Posted - 2015.08.21 16:13:43 -
[8] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:Most beginners complain to me about not being able to be taxed on their LP. An LP Tax would help them a lot.
New players and new entrants to FW come to you and state that their game would be improved if they could just have their LP taxed?
Member of CSMX - CSMX Weekly Updates
Member of CSM9
Low Sec Lifestyle - An Eve Blog
@Sugar_Kyle
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Arla Sarain
609
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Posted - 2015.08.21 16:42:17 -
[9] - Quote
Bring awareness to Highsec-lowsec camps (not intel, just their possibility)
Bring awareness to the available evasive options against camps
Introduce Militia Personal Deployables? Eg: Militia Mobile Depot - a lot cheaper, lasts 1h.
Fleet window tutorial of some kind, outlining broadcasts, fleet hierarchy, watchlists, the ability to lock from broadcasts, broadcasts going to the top of overview, etc. Functional details, so that they don't go "where did that target just go I cant see it".
Mention tunnel vision...
Gather facts tho, I get the impression that the newbies who want to actually fight in FW simply look for dedicated corps, and figure things out from there. The ones who are stubborn and keep flying through Tama/Villore are just farmers looking for a quick buck.
Also T3Ds, whilst should definitely get canned one way or another, are hardly the first threat to newbies. Even opponents flying T1 frigs with T2 modules and higher SP will most often destroy newbies. |
Nyjil Lizaru
Aideron Robotics
39
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Posted - 2015.08.21 17:15:19 -
[10] - Quote
Lots of great ideas already.
If CCP really wants brand-new players to enter FW, then the overview and the entry-level ISK-making opportunities are probably the two biggest issues.
We always say that new players should join a corp, but we need to acknowledge that the very stories about the game that draw people to EVE also make them suspicious. And we're gonna have 'lone wolves' in FW, it's one of the places that draw them. So an appropriate MOTD in either militia chat or the FW NPC corp chat sounds like a good idea, something that points them to more information. A way for those who aren't sure who to trust to find stuff that isn't covered in the tutorials. It might mean gathering various FW guides that have been made by players into a central location and making them semi-official, not sure how CCP would feel about that.
The faction police are OK that way they are, imo. I know they're a bit of a joke, but I think the opposing faction players should be the concern, not the NPCs.
Repeating from above because it's a big one: Automatic suspect flag in plexes. (Larger question: why do we lose sec status for shooting 'bad guys'? If I'm -2 and shoot at a -10, I should get a boost! ;) )
Get T3Ds out of smalls.
Is there any way to make LP easier to cash out without opening it to abuse? That might help the new players (not sure about that, just a thought).
Nyjil's corollary to Malcanis' Law: -á "Any attempt by CCP to smooth the learning curve of EVE Online will be carried out via the addition of extra factors and 'features' such that there is a net increase in complexity."
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Nameira Vanis-Tor
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
231
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Posted - 2015.08.21 17:17:37 -
[11] - Quote
Some elements that would help new players in FW:
1) Very very simple, sticky the active and recruiting FW corps thread in this forum located here...https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342520&find=unread
If you can get an in game pointer to it somehow that would be useful. This will allow new players to find FW specialist corps who don't mind new recruits quickly and learn the ropes from them.
2) Faction standings hit are a problem for new players, if they are to be kept it would be good if the players can be clearly warned that this will happen.
3) Sec standings hits are a barrier to playing FW. Pirates are an important part of the warzones however engaging them in plexes results in FW players having to constantly repair their sec status if they want to go in high sec at all. Vet players with ISK just buy tags. New pilots have to waste a lot of time PVEing in order to access trade hubs. Giving a criminal flag for entering a plex will help new pilots to stay in FW.
4) Pirate faction frigs should be banned from Novice Plexes OR Novice Plexes should be renamed. It is a misleading name when a vet in a Garmur or Worm can pulverise a squadron of new players single handed with ease. The purpose of Novice Plexes should be to allow low skilled pilots to still be able to influence a system attack/defence and level the playing field a little bit versus high sp pilots; Pirate Fac frigs (especially Garmurs and Worms) negate this purpose.
5) T3 Dessies should not be in small Plexes they have become cancer there and are not new pilot friendly.
Some of the other things raised would be useful but the above would be quick fixes to help new entrants and FW pilot retention in my opinion. |
Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
117
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Posted - 2015.08.21 17:58:51 -
[12] - Quote
Why can the default order of things in the overview be not be changed? I think that would be easier than an overview pack.
I think it would be nice to have militia-level contracts, but if they work just like public contracts I am not sure I see a problem with just using public contracts.
I hear suspect flags for neutrals hitting plexes are inbound, I like that. (This also resolved a lot of issue with the 'safety' feature so yay!)
The thing I run into the most with my newbros is the "warp to a plex @ 10km" thing. Every vet FW players knows this and does it by default now, but also every one of us has died to an enemy fleet because that first time we hit a plex we warped at 0 and were stuck inside the acceleration gate. I don't know if that is a bigger EVE thing or just a FW thing, but that would be nice to fix. Not the biggest of deals tho.
I don't know 100% where to land on the high end faction frigs and tech 3 destroyers in plexes. Although I will admit I struggle to counter the t3d with the lower SP pilots I tend to fly with, so it would obviously help me and my newbros out if one or two Svipuls couldn't single-handed-ly lock my gangs out of small plexes. However, all of my Garmur and Worm kills have come from the enemy pilot thinking he was hot **** with his links, drugs and w/e only to get caught on the beacon.
I also like Nameira Vanis-Tor's idea of making a sticky of this thread would help.
I think something should be done about faction police, but I haven't really ever left low sec so I don't know enough to comment. However, the number of newbros that get ganked via elite high sec PVP concerns me.
Operation Meatshield! GETUP and fight!
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3369
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 17:59:30 -
[13] - Quote
reduce the volume of covops cloaks so that we can loot them with a interceptor.
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
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Jes Jernau
The Order of Thelemic Ascension Novus Dominatum
0
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Posted - 2015.08.21 20:23:43 -
[14] - Quote
Started EVE in January 2015 and joined a FW Corp shortly afterwards.
I would suggest reworking the jumpclone mechanics, specifically reducing the cool down timer. New players trying to skill up to pew but take a training hit when out of learning implants. Especially early in the game.
Or as suggested bump new player skills up a bit.
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
700
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 21:14:06 -
[15] - Quote
Apply FozzieSov to FW. |
X Gallentius
Aliastra Gallente Federation
2905
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 21:35:22 -
[16] - Quote
(Newbro thread, not overall FW improvement thread)
JUSTK is recruiting.
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Silverbackyererse
The Church of Awesome Heiian Conglomerate
144
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 00:36:18 -
[17] - Quote
Good luck with this mate. And congratulations on getting what I reckon is the first and only sticky I've ever seen in this section of the forums.
What do CCP envisage for a FW newbie? Hopefully it's not the quadruple warp core stabilised ship farming novice complexes. Tell us what they are aiming for and maybe we can help. Otherwise it's all just lip service.
Perhaps CCP need to provide a lot more information or links to information about faction warfare first up on the enlistment page. Expanding the rules of engagement could use a lot more information also. To put this into context, our corporation bulletins have more relevant info that a new bro would find about FW than CCP provide via in game sanctioned methods.
Make it easier for new bro's to find a new-bro friendly corporations. Expanding the corporation recruitment ads could facilitate this. Include a check box for newbie friendly and the faction. Add a MOTD in the NPC chat channels directing newbies to these corporation ads might work perhaps? Make it easier for the new player to get out of the NPC corporations where they will always be met with suspicion and prejudice.
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IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Heiian Conglomerate
1460
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 01:11:31 -
[18] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:Most beginners complain to me about not being able to be taxed on their LP. An LP Tax would help them a lot. New players and new entrants to FW come to you and state that their game would be improved if they could just have their LP taxed?
Yep.
Happens almost daily.
https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
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Sugar Kyle
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1028
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 06:14:09 -
[19] - Quote
Silverbackyererse wrote:Good luck with this mate. And congratulations on getting what I reckon is the first and only sticky I've ever seen in this section of the forums. What do CCP envisage for a FW newbie? Hopefully it's not the quadruple warp core stabilised ship farming novice complexes. Tell us what they are aiming for and maybe we can help. Otherwise it's all just lip service. Perhaps CCP need to provide a lot more information or links to information about faction warfare first up on the enlistment page. Expanding the rules of engagement could use a lot more information also. To put this into context, our corporation bulletins have more relevant info that a new bro would find about FW than CCP provide via in game sanctioned methods. Make it easier for new bro's to find a new-bro friendly corporations. Expanding the corporation recruitment ads could facilitate this. Include a check box for newbie friendly and the faction. Add a MOTD in the NPC chat channels directing newbies to these corporation ads might work perhaps? Make it easier for the new player to get out of the NPC corporations where they will always be met with suspicion and prejudice. EDIT : - Please don't dumb FW down by aiming to please the lowest common denominator!
I understand your request but that is not the direction that I will find what I need. I need to know what is needed jow and what pain points there are. I don't need people to temper and try to design it. I need them to share what is said and heard and expierence from logging in each day.
Member of CSMX - CSMX Weekly Updates
Member of CSM9
Low Sec Lifestyle - An Eve Blog
@Sugar_Kyle
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
589
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 17:02:54 -
[20] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:Silverbackyererse wrote:Good luck with this mate. And congratulations on getting what I reckon is the first and only sticky I've ever seen in this section of the forums. What do CCP envisage for a FW newbie? Hopefully it's not the quadruple warp core stabilised ship farming novice complexes. Tell us what they are aiming for and maybe we can help. Otherwise it's all just lip service. Perhaps CCP need to provide a lot more information or links to information about faction warfare first up on the enlistment page. Expanding the rules of engagement could use a lot more information also. To put this into context, our corporation bulletins have more relevant info that a new bro would find about FW than CCP provide via in game sanctioned methods. Make it easier for new bro's to find a new-bro friendly corporations. Expanding the corporation recruitment ads could facilitate this. Include a check box for newbie friendly and the faction. Add a MOTD in the NPC chat channels directing newbies to these corporation ads might work perhaps? Make it easier for the new player to get out of the NPC corporations where they will always be met with suspicion and prejudice. EDIT : - Please don't dumb FW down by aiming to please the lowest common denominator! I understand your request but that is not the direction that I will find what I need. I need to know what is needed jow and what pain points there are. I don't need people to temper and try to design it. I need them to share what is said and heard and expierence from logging in each day.
The fact that every faction's missions can be solo farmed in bombers except Gallente due to permajamming Caldari rats, is a long-standing gripe. I am not sure how to fix this other than removing the jams and making missions equally farmable for everyone. Perhaps they could be changed somehow to make bombers less viable. Add a few sentries perhaps? Enough to pop a bomber but not to trouble a properly tanked ship overmuch?
Oh and, war targets should not be able to dock in highsec militia stations, and using a drone+neutral logi to pull faction navy is an exploit which needs addressing. Agree with Moglarr that we don't need to incentivize bored highsec mercs hopping militias and vaping newbies in highsec. |
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Torbrand Mandero
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.08.23 04:26:16 -
[21] - Quote
As a newbro myself dabbling in FW over the past two weeks, I'll share my notes:
First, I agree totally with removing T3 destroyers and Pirate Faction frigs from small and novice plexs respectively. The whole point of different grades to me seems to be to allow players to find an even and fun fight. Getting blasted in seconds by a vet or pirate isn't fun, and drives new players away. I never even considered getting into a corp since I was just playing there while I looked for a new corp outside of strictly FW activities. Some kind of automated message in militia or npc corp channels could help direct new players to using the corp search tool to find specifically FW centered corporations to join. Maybe also directing them to form non-corporation NPSI type fleets (although I'm sure this is totally possible in the militia channel, it was rare for me to see anyone actually forming fleets up for FW in the militia chats.) I don't know if this is asking too much, but having to deal with an npc rat in a plex and another player usually means you'll lose. It's hard to pay attention to both at once. Maybe the AI of plex rats could be modified so they only respond once aggressed? There seems to be a lack of focus on the actual objective of FW, which is capturing plexes to capture systems. I get this, because lots of people are simply looking for fights. I feel like some plexes take too long to capture. Sitting 20 minutes on a plex in order to capture it isn't fun. Maybe a mechanic could be introduced to speed up the capture times if there are more players in the plex of the same faction? That'd serve the purpose of making capturing plexes less time consuming and motivate people to fleet up Hopefully that feedback helps. I didn't spend too much time in FW and my knowledge of all the mechanics isn't perfect, so forgive me if some of the info above is incorrect or if I've missed important details (such is probably likely.) I feel that making FW more new player friendly is definitely a good priority, as it's the only place where a new player can feasibly be successful at PVP. Other areas of the game punish new players for low sp and t1 ships because just about everyone has a better ship and more skill that you, so unless you're in a fleet you usually don't stand a chance. For that reason, I feel like getting pirate frigs out of novice plexes and t3 destroyers out of small plexes is probably the simplest fix and one most important to helping new players enjoy FW. |
Silverbackyererse
The Church of Awesome Heiian Conglomerate
145
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Posted - 2015.08.23 05:20:43 -
[22] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:
I understand your request but that is not the direction that I will find what I need. I need to know what is needed jow and what pain points there are. I don't need people to temper and try to design it. I need them to share what is said and heard and expierence from logging in each day.
Understood. You need feedback from the newer characters not the old, bitter and twisted ones who've forgotten what it was like to be new to faction war and low security space.
Can I throw throw one more thought out there before I move on?
Change the name of the novice complex to something like minor complex (might want to make sure there's no spelling mistake on that one too - there's enough Ventures 'mining' in them as it is). One suspects that the current nomenclature is giving the new folks who run them a false sense of security.
/ Flees.
Seriously though, good luck mate and thanks for all your effort on low sec and FW in particular. |
Julius Foederatus
Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop
259
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Posted - 2015.08.24 20:25:44 -
[23] - Quote
Since new FW guys get disproportionately camped in high sec systems, I think removing both the faction navy, and the ability for WTs to dock in enemy high sec would go a long way to making their time in FW a little easier. |
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
810
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Posted - 2015.08.24 23:28:58 -
[24] - Quote
Dear CCP please fix the default overview of all newbros. Like seriously he was shooting at our entire fleet because he sees us as suspects/pirates. Said newbro in question: https://zkillboard.com/kill/48626902/
I mean damn everyone was telling him stop even the guys in his fleet.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1510
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Posted - 2015.08.24 23:41:29 -
[25] - Quote
Default window layout and overview has to be the single worst part of new player experience in any and all pvp FW included.
It doesnt make any sense that to even play the game you have to first fix the UI layout. |
Nameira Vanis-Tor
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
245
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Posted - 2015.08.25 02:07:58 -
[26] - Quote
Yang Aurilen wrote:Dear CCP please fix the default overview of all newbros. Like seriously he was shooting at our entire fleet because he sees us as suspects/pirates. Said newbro in question: https://zkillboard.com/kill/48626902/ I mean damn everyone was telling him stop even the guys in his fleet.
Although this is a common problem it is much easier to fix now that you can link and share overview layouts.
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Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
813
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Posted - 2015.08.25 02:28:06 -
[27] - Quote
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:Yang Aurilen wrote:Dear CCP please fix the default overview of all newbros. Like seriously he was shooting at our entire fleet because he sees us as suspects/pirates. Said newbro in question: https://zkillboard.com/kill/48626902/ I mean damn everyone was telling him stop even the guys in his fleet. Although this is a common problem it is much easier to fix now that you can link and share overview layouts.
That usually only happens once one of you dies(usually the newbie) since most people won't stop shooting at some one they're shooting if they asked for it since it might be a trick.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
82
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Posted - 2015.08.25 14:25:57 -
[28] - Quote
Silverbackyererse wrote:One suspects that the current nomenclature is giving the new folks who run them a false sense of security. On the other hand, there should be a complex which does fit the novice.
Ideally? No pirate, no faction, no links. If you're going to tell a 8 day old character to throw themselves into lowsec to pew, at least give them an area to do so on as equal a footing as they can get. Given the choice, I'd say expand the entire complex system so that it better tiers fights (i.e. T3Ds in Smalls problem). But that's not exactly a newbie problem.
Another problem is logistics - As a week old toon, you don't want to put your training on hold for a month to train up an industrial alt. You also don't realize that the opposing faction likes to camp the highsec pipes for people who didn't drop FW while doing a resupply run. If you're part of a FW corp, hopefully they do that for you because you don't even have the option of going neutral to get a new supply of hulls.
There are some other smaller factors like, "How do I earn ISK to fund my explosions in FW?" not being terribly obvious. L1 FW doesn't earn jack (especially if your faction is currently Tier 1 as well), and both that and plex farming run into the same shipping problems as getting your hulls out of highsec.
There is probably something to be said about how difficult frigate combat is to learn, but that might be more of a 'bringing solo back' problem than a proper FW one. |
Dispex
Hoplite Brigade Hashashin Cartel
0
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Posted - 2015.08.26 07:17:54 -
[29] - Quote
Extra tickboxes in the ingame-corp-search-tool for each race under the FW-tickbox would have eased my long search for the corp I have now. |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
873
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Posted - 2015.08.26 13:01:14 -
[30] - Quote
From my perspective:
1. Changes to default overview as noted above. 2. More resources in General Militia on active FW corps - possibly GenMil MOTD?
I think that between more obvious resources to help players find active FW corps, and a default overview that doesn't get you killed, you'll solve the biggest friction points.
I feel that there's a lot of things that we FW players can do to educate folks in NPC militia corps, and that we're probably better positioned than CCP to take on the mentoring roles that a lot of folks have asked for above.
Not me specifically though - a patient understanding teacher I am not!
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
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Flynn Fetladral
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
556
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Posted - 2015.08.26 17:28:20 -
[31] - Quote
Dispex wrote:Extra tickboxes in the ingame-corp-search-tool for each race under the FW-tickbox would have eased my long search for the corp I have now.
IGÇÖd second something along these lines. ItGÇÖs rather difficult to find FW corps in general in-game. I believe in the past you could actually see all the corps listed (I might be imagining this however)?
_My mother was a thukker, my father was an elderberry! _- @flynnfetladral on Twitter!
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Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
492
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Posted - 2015.08.27 13:34:40 -
[32] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:From my perspective:
1. Changes to default overview as noted above. 2. More resources in General Militia on active FW corps - possibly GenMil MOTD?
I think that between more obvious resources to help players find active FW corps, and a default overview that doesn't get you killed, you'll solve the biggest friction points.
I feel that there's a lot of things that we FW players can do to educate folks in NPC militia corps, and that we're probably better positioned than CCP to take on the mentoring roles that a lot of folks have asked for above.
Not me specifically though - a patient understanding teacher I am not!
Guess we need to find someone who wants to run a newbie training corp. I would be willing to donate some time to the cause, but don't think I'm up for running it either at this point. |
Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
119
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Posted - 2015.08.27 22:06:33 -
[33] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Veskrashen wrote:From my perspective:
1. Changes to default overview as noted above. 2. More resources in General Militia on active FW corps - possibly GenMil MOTD?
I think that between more obvious resources to help players find active FW corps, and a default overview that doesn't get you killed, you'll solve the biggest friction points.
I feel that there's a lot of things that we FW players can do to educate folks in NPC militia corps, and that we're probably better positioned than CCP to take on the mentoring roles that a lot of folks have asked for above.
Not me specifically though - a patient understanding teacher I am not! Guess we need to find someone who wants to run a newbie training corp. I would be willing to donate some time to the cause, but don't think I'm up for running it either at this point.
Just send them my way. GalMil doesn't really need the new blood anyway, and I like having people to Yolo with.
Operation Meatshield! GETUP and fight!
|
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
492
|
Posted - 2015.08.28 14:57:04 -
[34] - Quote
FW specific opportunities (open a plex, complete a plex, etc.). |
Nicholas Goldfinder
State Protectorate Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2015.08.28 22:12:01 -
[35] - Quote
I think giving suspect status to whoever enters a plex is bad for FW, because it gives away the position of a player, especially if that player is in a militia.
A good alternative would be to give limited aggression timer. Being specific, it does not give away unnecessary information and allows sec status to not be wasted. |
Tek Stalker
Rapid Withdrawal
5
|
Posted - 2015.08.29 18:47:05 -
[36] - Quote
The first 3 things that come to mind for me are.
1.) Overview help. So many new pilots make the mistake of targeting a bitter old vet in the same militia. He in turns replies with killing that pilot for his mistake. LetGÇÖs face it for new pilots the Overview can be a bit too much handle.
2.) Suspect Timers when hitting plex gates. Most new pilots learn very fast. That neutrals and pirates warp into your plex looking for PvP. Taking the standing hit for attacking them or waiting for them to aggress you in awful. If youGÇÖre active it doesnGÇÖt take long for your security status to become an issue. This is a real issue for players in NPC or small corporations that donGÇÖt have low sec logistics. Flying to your trade hub to get a ship with the fear of NPC's killing you is not good.
3.) Enemy Militia being able to sit outside high sec LP hubs and blap new pilots all day long is a problem. They do the work to get enough LP to get some items or ship. These items are lost to veteran pilots with nothing else to do. I am not sure this encourages pilots to stick with Faction Warfare. You would think your faction police would respond like Concord.
These ideas are to make FW better for new pilots and pilots that are new to Eve.
|
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
834
|
Posted - 2015.08.30 23:51:12 -
[37] - Quote
Tek Stalker wrote:The first 3 things that come to mind for me are.
1.) Overview help. So many new pilots make the mistake of targeting a bitter old vet in the same militia. He in turns replies with killing that pilot for his mistake. LetGÇÖs face it for new pilots the Overview can be a bit too much handle.
2.) Suspect Timers when hitting plex gates. Most new pilots learn very fast. That neutrals and pirates warp into your plex looking for PvP. Taking the standing hit for attacking them or waiting for them to aggress you in awful. If youGÇÖre active it doesnGÇÖt take long for your security status to become an issue. This is a real issue for players in NPC or small corporations that donGÇÖt have low sec logistics. Flying to your trade hub to get a ship with the fear of NPC's killing you is not good.
3.) Enemy Militia being able to sit outside high sec LP hubs and blap new pilots all day long is a problem. They do the work to get enough LP to get some items or ship. These items are lost to veteran pilots with nothing else to do. I am not sure this encourages pilots to stick with Faction Warfare. You would think your faction police would respond like Concord.
These ideas are to make FW better for new pilots and pilots that are new to Eve.
Indeed. I'm all for your first proposal. The second one needs tweaking such that militia members don't get suspect timers and only neutrals get it. Also buff the faction navy to faction police level and you'll probably see a drop in highsec FW ganking.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
|
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
874
|
Posted - 2015.08.31 01:33:50 -
[38] - Quote
Yang Aurilen wrote:Tek Stalker wrote:The first 3 things that come to mind for me are.
1.) Overview help. So many new pilots make the mistake of targeting a bitter old vet in the same militia. He in turns replies with killing that pilot for his mistake. LetGÇÖs face it for new pilots the Overview can be a bit too much handle.
2.) Suspect Timers when hitting plex gates. Most new pilots learn very fast. That neutrals and pirates warp into your plex looking for PvP. Taking the standing hit for attacking them or waiting for them to aggress you in awful. If youGÇÖre active it doesnGÇÖt take long for your security status to become an issue. This is a real issue for players in NPC or small corporations that donGÇÖt have low sec logistics. Flying to your trade hub to get a ship with the fear of NPC's killing you is not good.
3.) Enemy Militia being able to sit outside high sec LP hubs and blap new pilots all day long is a problem. They do the work to get enough LP to get some items or ship. These items are lost to veteran pilots with nothing else to do. I am not sure this encourages pilots to stick with Faction Warfare. You would think your faction police would respond like Concord.
These ideas are to make FW better for new pilots and pilots that are new to Eve.
Indeed. I'm all for your first proposal. The second one needs tweaking such that militia members don't get suspect timers and only neutrals get it. Also buff the faction navy to faction police level and you'll probably see a drop in highsec FW ganking. They're already talking about suspect timers on plexes, which would solve a lot of problems IMO.
Having NPC Navies that actually made a difference so that highsec was actually less dangerous in practice than lowsec would really help too. Though watching my alliance mates nuke people in Jita is hillarious, I must admit...
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
|
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
836
|
Posted - 2015.08.31 10:29:23 -
[39] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:Yang Aurilen wrote:Tek Stalker wrote:The first 3 things that come to mind for me are.
1.) Overview help. So many new pilots make the mistake of targeting a bitter old vet in the same militia. He in turns replies with killing that pilot for his mistake. LetGÇÖs face it for new pilots the Overview can be a bit too much handle.
2.) Suspect Timers when hitting plex gates. Most new pilots learn very fast. That neutrals and pirates warp into your plex looking for PvP. Taking the standing hit for attacking them or waiting for them to aggress you in awful. If youGÇÖre active it doesnGÇÖt take long for your security status to become an issue. This is a real issue for players in NPC or small corporations that donGÇÖt have low sec logistics. Flying to your trade hub to get a ship with the fear of NPC's killing you is not good.
3.) Enemy Militia being able to sit outside high sec LP hubs and blap new pilots all day long is a problem. They do the work to get enough LP to get some items or ship. These items are lost to veteran pilots with nothing else to do. I am not sure this encourages pilots to stick with Faction Warfare. You would think your faction police would respond like Concord.
These ideas are to make FW better for new pilots and pilots that are new to Eve.
Indeed. I'm all for your first proposal. The second one needs tweaking such that militia members don't get suspect timers and only neutrals get it. Also buff the faction navy to faction police level and you'll probably see a drop in highsec FW ganking. They're already talking about suspect timers on plexes, which would solve a lot of problems IMO. Having NPC Navies that actually made a difference so that highsec was actually less dangerous in practice than lowsec would really help too. Though watching my alliance mates nuke people in Jita is hillarious, I must admit...
What I'm saying is don't give the FW guys suspect timers. Just give it to neutrals because why in the world would your random FW dude doing an intended game mechanic get a suspect timer for?
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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Nicholas Goldfinder
State Protectorate Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2015.08.31 12:01:10 -
[40] - Quote
Giving suspect timers to neutrals entering plexus is a bit strong and counter intuitive, because the real act of aggression is made by the FW dude of the opposing militia, that enters the plex to increase contestation in the system.
Giving limited aggression timer solves the problem better, because everyone can get it without it being weird. |
|
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
196
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 07:35:46 -
[41] - Quote
Nicholas Goldfinder wrote:Giving suspect timers to neutrals entering plexus is a bit strong and counter intuitive, because the real act of aggression is made by the FW dude of the opposing militia, that enters the plex to increase contestation in the system.
Giving limited aggression timer solves the problem better, because everyone can get it without it being weird.
the point of this is for us FW dudes not to acquire standing hits in shooting neutrals who enters our plex.
so how to avoid that? the easy and popular solution is to make neuts entering plexes suspects. if you have any idea to address the issue then feel free.
Just Add Water
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Master Sergeant MacRobert
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
215
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 13:19:44 -
[42] - Quote
First of all thanks Sugar Kyle. Great of you to ask for details and it is good to know again that things are still being looked at. The system will never be perfect so will always need a review periodically.
I have been particularly busy but also wanted to see what people posted.
Thantos Marathon has posted well. A lot of what I would suggest is in this quote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Welcome to FW mail from NPC corp with useful information (link to how plexes work, basic FW overview pack, how to find a fleet in fleet finder, how to start one, external tools like dotlan, etc.). Massive warning about standings issues long term. Basic Militia Overview in Militia chat and FW panel and in welcome to FW email. Contracts to Militia so that corps with established and strong logistics groups can help support newbros with prefit ships. Get rid of allied militia/purple overview issues. Strengthen the response of highsec navy NPCs so that the rats can't be tanked nor dragged away forever. This will still allow speed based attacks (warp in, pew, run away) in enemy highsec. Standings Issues, including applying standings on an individual level instead of a corp/alliance level. Smooth out the tier system so Tier1 payouts aren't so small and Tier4+ aren't so amazingly large (devalues plex lp). Ban T3Ds from small plexes. Remove aggression from plex rats (solves afk oplexing in a drone boat as well as making sure newbro's aren't taking damage from a freshly spawned NPC while also combatting the enemy). Training for basics of frigate pew, fittings and tactics (scram, scram kite, kite). FW specific advertising. Suspect on plex gates. Slight nerf to pirate frigs, specifically garmur and worm (or ban them from novices). Reduce the strength of all links by 40% (random number). Increase new character SP by a million and a half and put them in core skills (navigation, cap, shields, armor, etc.) and base racial frig and weapon systems. Change default warp to range on plexes to 10 so newbro's don't get caught on accel gate by warping at zero.
I particularly like: 1. The FW Mail - give them some links to useful sites, information about what they have got themselves into and tips. 2. Overview - this is the number one thing 3. Contract to Militia help out everyone and particularly new Militia pilots. You will see an increase in open militia fleets when everyone in the militia can buy contracts for quick reshipping that fit what the FC wants. 4. Toughen NPC's in HiSec 5. I have said before that Tier 1 should not penalize plex work and that the rewards for 3,4 & 5 are too high 6. T3D's should not be in smalls 7. The aggression from plex rats thing is a smart move to change afk farming
I'm not against his other points, except perhaps:
I do not think a suspect flag is correct for plex gates... This has been discussed a lot from both Points of View. I think it should be a limited aggression timer on activation or there should be no sec hit for combat inside the plex's for anyone. After all you do not want to add a combat suppressor to something that is a combat driver.
A vital point for Sugar Kyle. The reason there is such a need for new members of FW is because there is no real long game. The incentives to stay in FW, after the initial honeymoon, are none other than LP to Isk rewards being high.
Do not stop at enhancing the new capsuleer experience in FW and then ignore the changes that are needed to give reason to stay in FW. I look forward to a thread being posted requesting further ideas on this.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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Sugar Kyle
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1029
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 16:21:16 -
[43] - Quote
Thank you for all the thoughts and feedback. Now I get to do the glamorous job of pouring this all into a singular document for CCP. :)
Member of CSMX - CSMX Weekly Updates
Member of CSM9
Low Sec Lifestyle - An Eve Blog
@Sugar_Kyle
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
90
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 20:07:37 -
[44] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:The reason there is such a need for new members of FW is because there is no real long game. The incentives to stay in FW, after the initial honeymoon, are none other than LP to Isk rewards being high. I'd hazard to say that the "point" behind FW is gudfights.
This is going to be the purpose behind suggestions like "Ban T3Ds from Smalls" and putting timers on people who enter plexes. Even the people rabidly suggesting that a plex should automatically explode anyone who enters while having a Warp Stab fit are chasing the same goal: pew.
So I'd say there isn't a 'long game' to chase. Instead it's the moment-to-moment. Get plexes figured out so you can do some ghetto matchmaking. Figure out OGBs so we don't all need to be running around with a Tengu alt. Suggest getting into FW during the tutorials, and then make sure that newbro can both participate and knows how.
Which isn't to say that we don't need some modification of the larger systems. The reward tier is a classic example of positive reinforcement run amok. O-Plexing should be heavily rewarded when you're at low tier to encourage offence, just as D-Plexing should be would be most beneficial to encourage at mid tiers to solidify borders. Presumably leaving FW missions for the high tiers to encourage farmers to leave the battle entirely and let the battle lines move back to center.
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Master Sergeant MacRobert
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
216
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 21:05:22 -
[45] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:The reason there is such a need for new members of FW is because there is no real long game. The incentives to stay in FW, after the initial honeymoon, are none other than LP to Isk rewards being high. I'd hazard to say that the "point" behind FW is gudfights.
Aye, pew should be the fundamental aspect to the design. There are aspects that can be explored further to introduce more conflict drivers and some that include PvP escalation. There are opportunities to tinker with the current mechanics that can catalyse more pew and reward those that plant a flag in the warzone and state "if you want it, then come and take it".
Aerasia wrote: So I'd say there isn't a 'long game' to chase. Instead it's the moment-to-moment.
Nay, there is more than one playstyle found in the Warzone. The current system already points to fights over a plex, extended to a system, to a constellation, to a whole warzone.
Aerasia wrote:
- The reward tier is a classic example of positive reinforcement run amok
- O-Plexing should be heavily rewarded when you're at low tier to encourage offence
- just as D-Plexing should be would be most beneficial to encourage at mid tiers to solidify borders.
- Presumably leaving FW missions for the high tiers to encourage farmers to leave the battle entirely and let the battle lines move back to center.
. I agree with this.
There are a plenty of suggestions that can be made to things already built in but, it is for another thread.
Believe me when I say, there are a number of people in Militia's who have many thoughts, drafts and proposals for upping the longevity of the FW experience.
There has been a marked drop in Veteran Militia pilots brought about solely from frustration in systems and mechanics, not from a loss of will.
This is why I think we must see a similar exploration (later) of the other aspects of FW including:
- LP Stores,
- System Upgrades,
- Pilot Ranking system,
- reward balance from PvP kills converse to plex capture rewards,
- the tier system,
- FW I-hubs,
- complex spawn balancing
- Militia events
Damn, I was going to play some Eve tonight. .. time to log in.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
90
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 22:43:44 -
[46] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:There are a plenty of suggestions that can be made to things already built in but, it is for another thread. Exactly why I didn't bring it up in my first post in this thread. Now that Sugar's got what she needs, we're free to go bananas. :)
But I'll admit, I may be coming at this from a different angle from many of the people who stick with EVE. I continue to put hours into Planetside because the fighting is fun. There are complaints that it has no meta, or end game, or consequences - but I'm a firm believer in the idea that you can have a long lasting experience without some long term goal, but it's very hard to do if logging in is seen as a punishment.
You're right though. There is more than one playstyle. It's my take on the priorities that when I think of the 'goal' of FW, I can see the idea of a little badge of achievement on your character info and think "Done, and done." It won't satisfy everybody, and it would be great to eventually see material impacts (can you imagine Caldari getting to tier 4, and Tama going to 0.5 sec?).
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May Arethusa
PillowBrigade Inc
51
|
Posted - 2015.09.02 00:08:00 -
[47] - Quote
I've been recruiting for FW corps for a while now, and the range of people it attracts is staggering. However, they all go through the same learning process.
You tell them where to go. It might be your corp's home system if they're joining a player corp, but it's often the main hub for your militia for players joining one of the NPC corps.
When they get there, you give them a new overview. The default one is awful, and should be made to identify friendlies above pirates and criminals by default. You don't need a Faction Warfare pack, most corps and alliances will provide their own anyway, but out of the box the default setting should be fixed to address this problem.
Once you're certain they're not going to shoot you by mistake, you teach them how to plex. Currently this involves either linking outdated information, or simply undocking and going to a plex, talking them through the various mechanics.
Then they inevitably die in an Industrial moving their stuff through high-sec.
You're right, the career agents do suggest joining the militias, but any instruction ends there. Adding another career agent accessible upon entry to the militia that takes care of the above steps (not the dying in an Industrial part, they can learn that for themselves) for us should streamline the process of introducing new players to how Faction Warfare works. That way, we can direct new players to the career agent, knowing they will emerge with a solid grasp of the very basics. Any welcome mail can direct players to this agent, and Opportunities can make them feel special when they complete each step.
It takes a lot of the load off recruiters and instructors, allowing them to get more people through the door and focus on teaching them not to suck at PvP. |
Zirashi
State Protectorate Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 05:14:25 -
[48] - Quote
Nicholas Goldfinder wrote:Giving suspect timers to neutrals entering plexus is a bit strong and counter intuitive, because the real act of aggression is made by the FW dude of the opposing militia, that enters the plex to increase contestation in the system.
Giving limited aggression timer solves the problem better, because everyone can get it without it being weird.
TL;DR version:
a neutral entering a war zone is far more suspect than a militia fighter entering that
Wall o'Text version:
And that FW dude is flagged as a war target for it; open to being freely engaged anywhere in space at anytime. That's his limited engagement timer.
The neutral "civilian" however, can freely warp into a pocket in space clearly designated as a battleground, in an armed combat ship, slow boat into optimal, lock, and fire the first shot. Something which can be the deciding factor in a fight, especially when it's frigates.
Meanwhile I can't do anything to preemptively defend myself if I want to keep my sec status intact. I either take a security hit and do what I need to do to survive, start a fight in one of worst positions possible, or run. THAT is counter-intuitive. I'm here to defend this position, but I get penalized when a neutral comes at me in a place meant only for combat and I fire first.
I hate to bring up a realworld analogy here, but it would be like a guy walking in a bank shouldering an M16, walking up to the teller, pointing it him, and the guards being unable to legally say or do anything because technically he hasn't actually shot anyone or demanded money yet.
This is probably a moot argument, anyway. If the rumors are true, FW gates suspect flagging non-militia is supposedly coming.
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Master Sergeant MacRobert
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
218
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 13:00:07 -
[49] - Quote
The most sensible option is to cause no penalty to anyone inside a FW Plex, who is attempting to engage in player on player aggression.
Why?: A suspect flag is a penalty to a neutral. Now take the scenario that the occupant of the plex is a farmer and just warps off (readily aligned) when the neutral lands. Multiply and you have one very de-motivated neutral PvPer (even without the suspect flag which means he/she could be blown up by anyone on a gate after the farmer left them empty of content)
There should be no penalty for a FW Militia pilot choosing to engage anyone inside a FW capture plex. There really should not be any penalty for anyone under these circumstances (we want War!).
Two mechanisms I would immediately introduce:
- No sec status hits inside FW plex's. I don't care how you implement it but just do it.
- When a Militia pilot warps into a plex that has been partially captured. The timer rolls back at twice the speed that it climbs, as long as the militia pilot remains. They still have to "capture" the plex at normal speed but this means that they can undo work of someone who will not face up and confront them (which seems fair to me).
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
500
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 17:05:01 -
[50] - Quote
ftfy
Zirashi wrote:This is probably a moot argument, anyway. If the rumors are true, FW gates suspect flagging everyone is supposedly coming.
|
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Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
847
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 10:21:54 -
[51] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:The most sensible option is to cause no penalty to anyone inside a FW Plex, who is attempting to engage in player on player aggression. Why?: A suspect flag is a penalty to a neutral. Now take the scenario that the occupant of the plex is a farmer and just warps off (readily aligned) when the neutral lands. Multiply and you have one very de-motivated neutral PvPer (even without the suspect flag which means he/she could be blown up by anyone on a gate after the farmer left them empty of content)There should be no penalty for a FW Militia pilot choosing to engage anyone inside a FW capture plex. There really should not be any penalty for anyone under these circumstances (we want War!). Two mechanisms I would immediately introduce:
- No sec status hits inside FW plex's. I don't care how you implement it but just do it.
- When a Militia pilot warps into a plex that has been partially captured. The timer rolls back at twice the speed that it climbs, as long as the militia pilot remains. They still have to "capture" the plex at normal speed but this means that they can undo work of someone who will not face up and confront them (which seems fair to me).
1. Suspect for neutrals on gate activation is the most elegant and well, easiest solution for CCP since suspect timers already exist under the crime watch system. Having CCP code stuff so that you don't incur a sec penalty in lowsec in a really specific portion of space seems time-intensive to be fair. Also you don't think farmers are also demotivating for the FW peeps that actually fight for FW?
2. Care to elaborate? Which militia pilot? Are you saying that any if I oplexed a novice for 4 minutes it will only take 2 minutes for someone to deplex it?
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
|
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
219
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 13:08:14 -
[52] - Quote
Yang Aurilen wrote:Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:The most sensible option is to cause no penalty to anyone inside a FW Plex, who is attempting to engage in player on player aggression. Why?: A suspect flag is a penalty to a neutral. Now take the scenario that the occupant of the plex is a farmer and just warps off (readily aligned) when the neutral lands. Multiply and you have one very de-motivated neutral PvPer (even without the suspect flag which means he/she could be blown up by anyone on a gate after the farmer left them empty of content)There should be no penalty for a FW Militia pilot choosing to engage anyone inside a FW capture plex. There really should not be any penalty for anyone under these circumstances (we want War!). Two mechanisms I would immediately introduce:
- No sec status hits inside FW plex's. I don't care how you implement it but just do it.
- When a Militia pilot warps into a plex that has been partially captured. The timer rolls back at twice the speed that it climbs, as long as the militia pilot remains. They still have to "capture" the plex at normal speed but this means that they can undo work of someone who will not face up and confront them (which seems fair to me).
1. Suspect for neutrals on gate activation is the most elegant and well, easiest solution for CCP since suspect timers already exist under the crime watch system. Having CCP code stuff so that you don't incur a sec penalty in lowsec in a really specific portion of space seems time-intensive to be fair. 2. Care to elaborate? Which militia pilot? Are you saying that any if I oplexed a novice for 4 minutes it will only take 2 minutes for someone to deplex it?
Thanks for the questions Yang.
1. Suspect for neutrals on gate activation is not the most elegant solution. It is counter intuitive to design a combat suppressor on top of a conflict driver (it appears you do not realise that what is on the table is a suspect timer for all pilots using the gate).
It might well be the easiest solution but I'm not concerned about ease. They need to code fixes all over FW mechanisms so they should put a proper project together and do it. There have been too many such instances of easy options that have amounted to a plaster ("bandaid") pasted onto a "broken weld-joint".
Yang Aurilen wrote: Also you don't think farmers are also demotivating for the FW peeps that actually fight for FW?
No I did not say that. I was playing devils advocate for the neutrals as most appear to have grown bored of the subject (it has been discussed a lot already). Farmers are demotivating (hence why many want timer rollbacks in one of various forms see 2.)
Yang Aurilen wrote:2. Care to elaborate? Which militia pilot? Are you saying that any if I oplexed a novice for 4 minutes it will only take 2 minutes for someone to deplex it?
You have worked 4 minutes and it will now take your enemy 17 mins to capture the novice (rather than 19). Or 2 minutes to reset the novice to "unworked".
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1366
|
Posted - 2015.09.05 10:50:07 -
[53] - Quote
This suspect thing ...it may be a quick, but dirty fix. Consider the side effects; almost everybody in FW space will be suspect all the time. This would significantly change the meta for solo, frig fleets and gate camps towards the aggressor.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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croakroach
The Darwin Awards Prize Patrol Internet Space Bullies Alliance
18
|
Posted - 2015.09.06 20:21:50 -
[54] - Quote
I've been in and out of Militia for about 4 years and right now, lowsec has zero appeal to me.
Few suggestions:
- Make the fight a four way fight, break the alliance between Caldari and Amarr, etc. Right now the fight is stagnated for both Amarr and Caldari.
- Enemy players should be unable to dock in enemy stations in all areas of space. Just enemy by faction, if there is a Minmatar station in Caldari space, it should allow them to harbor their militia.
- Lowskill players should be refused entry to militia; they have no business in PvP and get looked upon as spies. They need to focus on learning the game first.
- Highsec. I would actually suggest reducing or removing the navy. The web and neut effects are too strong for these ships (-75% web from a t1 frig?, 80km neut from a Raven?).
- With above, introduce highsec areas so we can have a more dedicated area without having to deal with neutrals in plexes, pirates, hotdrops, etc. Perhaps open up the Genesis area for this and provide a path for all militias?
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Dispex
Hoplite Brigade Hashashin Cartel
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 09:56:20 -
[55] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:This suspect thing ...it may be a quick, but dirty fix. Consider the side effects; almost everybody in FW space will be suspect all the time. This would significantly change the meta for solo, frig fleets and gate camps towards the aggressor.
Yeah why not make it that when you enter the FW-Zone (the whole system) you get flagged or even better you will be notified that engaging you is a legal act because this is a WARZONE and no civilians or Pirats are allowed in here.
Isn't that logical? When nowadays pirates feel like moving near a navi ship and they are shot at there aren't any consequences for the navi guys? |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
739
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 15:53:24 -
[56] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:ftfy Zirashi wrote:This is probably a moot argument, anyway. If the rumors are true, FW gates suspect flagging everyone is supposedly coming.
Oh wow. I can see this getting abused. Now all the a-holes who like to sit on station and blap with Nados will not have to worry about taking sentry guns. |
May Arethusa
SessionChange
56
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 22:30:35 -
[57] - Quote
Zirashi wrote:This is probably a moot argument, anyway. If the rumors are true, FW gates suspect flagging everyone is supposedly coming.
Honestly, it's a terrible idea that makes no sense at all whatever way you look at it. I can't even find the words to describe how ridiculous it is. |
Dispex
Hoplite Brigade Hashashin Cartel
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 11:16:21 -
[58] - Quote
Quote:Honestly, it's a terrible idea that makes no sense at all whatever way you look at it. I can't even find the words to describe how ridiculous it is.
Why should it be ridiculous? Because it will solve the problem with the neutrals in FW-complexes?
When the flagging will fade as soon as you leave the complex there shouldn't be any problem what so ever! |
May Arethusa
SessionChange
56
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 14:48:00 -
[59] - Quote
Dispex wrote:Why should it be ridiculous? Because it will solve the problem with the neutrals in FW-complexes?
When the flagging will fade as soon as you leave the complex there shouldn't be any problem what so ever!
Open your Faction Warfare page on a non-enlisted character and read the front page. The one where it clearly states you'll be at war with X and Y in a CONCORD sanctioned war. Then go and read your Rules of Engagement, specifically the part where it explains who can shoot you and where. Nowhere does it state that RandomChap24 has the right to shoot you. He doesn't, he's a third party in a legitimate war, and should be treated as such. By flagging militia pilots inside plexes, you're not only legitimising his interference but rendering security status effectively null and void. Their criminal act (engaging military personnel actively participating in the capture of a strategic location) goes unpunished as a result.
Sure, we no longer take a hit for engaging them, but at what cost? Neutrals gain significantly more from this change than we ever will. If the idea is to make FW seem more appealing, how exactly is removing the need to sign up to shoot militia pilots without consequence doing that? It isn't, it's doing quite the opposite.
This is ignoring the numerous other problems such a system would create. Am I flagged for being inside the capture range, or inside the plex? What happens if I burn off grid in there, do I lose my flag? Is it a full 15 minutes, or a temporary flag like you seem to believe? What about fighting on the gate?
Recons? Useless. Cloaks? Useless. How do you tell the difference between someone inside a plex, and someone with a genuine suspect timer? Should your flag even be broadcast in local? Will I need to ref*ck my overview to see if hostile militia pilots are inside a plex? If I do will neutrals get this information for free?
I could go on. At great length. It's a crude, lazy, and ineffective, simultaneously removing a reason to sign up to FW in the first place. |
Nameira Vanis-Tor
Angry Mustellid
287
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 15:01:41 -
[60] - Quote
May Arethusa wrote:Dispex wrote:Why should it be ridiculous? Because it will solve the problem with the neutrals in FW-complexes?
When the flagging will fade as soon as you leave the complex there shouldn't be any problem what so ever! Open your Faction Warfare page on a non-enlisted character and read the front page. The one where it clearly states you'll be at war with X and Y in a CONCORD sanctioned war. Then go and read your Rules of Engagement, specifically the part where it explains who can shoot you and where. Nowhere does it state that RandomChap24 has the right to shoot you. He doesn't, he's a third party in a legitimate war, and should be treated as such. By flagging militia pilots inside plexes, you're not only legitimising his interference but rendering security status effectively null and void. Their criminal act (engaging military personnel actively participating in the capture of a strategic location) goes unpunished as a result. Sure, we no longer take a hit for engaging them, but at what cost? Neutrals gain significantly more from this change than we ever will. If the idea is to make FW seem more appealing, how exactly is removing the need to sign up to shoot militia pilots without consequence doing that? It isn't, it's doing quite the opposite. This is ignoring the numerous other problems such a system would create. Am I flagged for being inside the capture range, or inside the plex? What happens if I burn off grid in there, do I lose my flag? Is it a full 15 minutes, or a temporary flag like you seem to believe? What about fighting on the gate? Recons? Useless. Cloaks? Useless. How do you tell the difference between someone inside a plex, and someone with a genuine suspect timer? Should your flag even be broadcast in local? Will I need to ref*ck my overview to see if hostile militia pilots are inside a plex? If I do will neutrals get this information for free? I could go on. At great length. It's a crude, lazy, and ineffective, simultaneously removing a reason to sign up to FW in the first place.
You need to bear in mind that pilots who sign up to FW are signing up to surrender the limited protection of gate guns and station guns in both Low and High Sec. (Yes only to opposing militias, but you have to fly everywhere assuming you can be engaged anywhere and at any time). Therefore FW pilots should not face too much change with the suspect timers except for irritations where some pilots in your fleet are flagged and others are not. Even then you could move your fleet en mass into a Plex at the same time to sync the timer to avoid confusion.
This is a measure that would bug neutrals in the warzone more as it is frankly safer space for them that is being compromised. |
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May Arethusa
SessionChange
57
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 16:12:35 -
[61] - Quote
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:You need to bear in mind that pilots who sign up to FW are signing up to surrender the limited protection of gate guns and station guns in both Low and High Sec. (Yes only to opposing militias, but you have to fly everywhere assuming you can be engaged anywhere and at any time). Therefore FW pilots should not face too much change with the suspect timers except for irritations where some pilots in your fleet are flagged and others are not. Even then you could move your fleet en mass into a Plex at the same time to sync the timer to avoid confusion.
This is a measure that would bug neutrals in the warzone more as it is frankly safer space for them that is being compromised.
Translation: There's not that much difference between some people being able to shoot you, and everyone being able to shoot you. Also, here are some ways you should adapt to the change that's supposed to help you.
It won't bug neutrals at all, they already go suspect in plexes, and all this does is stop them from taking a sec status hit for doing so. What it will do is ensure no neutral fleet ever takes a fight in a plex again. All they need to do is wait long enough for a militia fleet to dive into a plex, wait a jump or two away and engage without worrying about gate guns. Neutrals can adapt to us being permanently flagged as suspects, our solution is to leave FW so we don't need to enter plexes. |
Nameira Vanis-Tor
Angry Mustellid
287
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 16:23:44 -
[62] - Quote
May Arethusa wrote:Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:You need to bear in mind that pilots who sign up to FW are signing up to surrender the limited protection of gate guns and station guns in both Low and High Sec. (Yes only to opposing militias, but you have to fly everywhere assuming you can be engaged anywhere and at any time). Therefore FW pilots should not face too much change with the suspect timers except for irritations where some pilots in your fleet are flagged and others are not. Even then you could move your fleet en mass into a Plex at the same time to sync the timer to avoid confusion.
This is a measure that would bug neutrals in the warzone more as it is frankly safer space for them that is being compromised. Translation: There's not that much difference between some people being able to shoot you, and everyone being able to shoot you. Also, here are some ways you should adapt to the change that's supposed to help you. It won't bug neutrals at all, they already go suspect in plexes, and all this does is stop them from taking a sec status hit for doing so. What it will do is ensure no neutral fleet ever takes a fight in a plex again. All they need to do is wait long enough for a militia fleet to dive into a plex, wait a jump or two away and engage without worrying about gate guns. Neutrals can adapt to us being permanently flagged as suspects, our solution is to leave FW so we don't need to enter plexes.
This is no different really than the current state of affairs. Neutral fleets of any size will ignore gate guns anyway as they can tank them.
If you are scouting properly then you will be aware of hostile gate camps and you can choose to either: re-route, take the fight, wait out the timer. Unless you jump blind into a gate camp then the suspect timers should not wreck your fleet.
What would your position be if CCP managed to programme things to ensure a suspect timer is only active whilst in the dead space pocket created by the Plex?
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May Arethusa
SessionChange
57
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 16:46:29 -
[63] - Quote
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:This is no different really than the current state of affairs. Neutral fleets of any size will ignore gate guns anyway as they can tank them.
If you are scouting properly then you will be aware of hostile gate camps and you can choose to either: re-route, take the fight, wait out the timer. Unless you jump blind into a gate camp then the suspect timers should not wreck your fleet.
What would your position be if CCP managed to programme things to ensure a suspect timer is only active whilst in the dead space pocket created by the Plex?
I've seen plenty of fleets avoid a fight on a gate because of gate guns, given a choice between taking them yourself and forcing your enemy to take them, which would you choose? Most fleets that roam the warzone are frigate and destroyer gangs with little or no logi, occasionally a cruiser gang with logi that still won't take a fight on a gate who will currently warp to and/or enter a plex to fight you without the hassle of gate aggro. You're asbolutely right though, you'll see them coming with a competent scout, but it still leaves the militia pilots (you know, the people this "fix" is supposed to help) at a significant disadvantage anywhere that isn't a plex.
As for your final question, I'd still oppose it. Any solution that penalises me for doing my job is not a solution. Personally, I'm happy with how things work at the moment, but since this is apparently going to be a thing, I'd rather it wasn't a thing that ruined FW. |
Nameira Vanis-Tor
Angry Mustellid
287
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 17:16:50 -
[64] - Quote
May Arethusa wrote:Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:This is no different really than the current state of affairs. Neutral fleets of any size will ignore gate guns anyway as they can tank them.
If you are scouting properly then you will be aware of hostile gate camps and you can choose to either: re-route, take the fight, wait out the timer. Unless you jump blind into a gate camp then the suspect timers should not wreck your fleet.
What would your position be if CCP managed to programme things to ensure a suspect timer is only active whilst in the dead space pocket created by the Plex? I've seen plenty of fleets avoid a fight on a gate because of gate guns, given a choice between taking them yourself and forcing your enemy to take them, which would you choose? Most fleets that roam the warzone are frigate and destroyer gangs with little or no logi, occasionally a cruiser gang with logi that still won't take a fight on a gate who will currently warp to and/or enter a plex to fight you without the hassle of gate aggro. You're asbolutely right though, you'll see them coming with a competent scout, but it still leaves the militia pilots (you know, the people this "fix" is supposed to help) at a significant disadvantage anywhere that isn't a plex. As for your final question, I'd still oppose it. Any solution that penalises me for doing my job is not a solution. Personally, I'm happy with how things work at the moment, but since this is apparently going to be a thing, I'd rather it wasn't a thing that ruined FW.
Neutrals who intend to take fights on gates will have a strategy in mind to neutralise the gate guns in my experience, whether that's hero tackle and bouncing out or logi etc. of course some groups will choose not to engage certain fleets because they don't like the odds etc etc.
If neutrals are roaming in small ships then they are not likely to abandon Plex fighting as that is where their fleet is designed to find content.
Here is how I see criminal flags on plexes enhancing content in the warzones.
FW new bros and some vets need to access high sec for the trade hubs in order to source the ships they then pvp with. If their sec status tanks then they either need to spend ISK on tags to redeem it (ISK that could be spend on more pvp) or spend time away from pvp to do ratting in order to recover the sec status the slow way. When neutrals enter a Plex it is always for combat purposes, a FW pilot who needs to access a trade hub can either damage their sec status and fire first or conceded the first volley to their enemy which is counter intuitive.
If FW pilots who need to access trade hubs are not dropping their sec status as much then that means more ISK spent on and more time spent pvping.
Also if stabbed dplexing farmer wind up with a flag then it will make that way of life harder which hopefully means the people in plexes are more likely the pilots looking for a fight.
In addition some FW pilots take a view of, 'why should I fight neutrals in my Plex? They do not affect the Plex timer and if I want a better chance of winning I have to hit my sec status. I can just go pvp against war targets with no penalty if I'm looking for content'. Criminal timers at least take away the penalty for gaining the initiative on a neutral hopefully encouraging more fights.
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Nicholas Goldfinder
State Protectorate Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 18:29:39 -
[65] - Quote
What is wrong in giving aggression timer, instead of suspect timer? |
May Arethusa
SessionChange
57
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 19:59:00 -
[66] - Quote
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:Here is how I see criminal flags on plexes enhancing content in the warzones.
FW new bros and some vets need to access high sec for the trade hubs in order to source the ships they then pvp with. If their sec status tanks then they either need to spend ISK on tags to redeem it (ISK that could be spend on more pvp) or spend time away from pvp to do ratting in order to recover the sec status the slow way. When neutrals enter a Plex it is always for combat purposes, a FW pilot who needs to access a trade hub can either damage their sec status and fire first or conceded the first volley to their enemy which is counter intuitive.
If FW pilots who need to access trade hubs are not dropping their sec status as much then that means more ISK spent on and more time spent pvping.
Also if stabbed dplexing farmer wind up with a flag then it will make that way of life harder which hopefully means the people in plexes are more likely the pilots looking for a fight.
In addition some FW pilots take a view of, 'why should I fight neutrals in my Plex? They do not affect the Plex timer and if I want a better chance of winning I have to hit my sec status. I can just go pvp against war targets with no penalty if I'm looking for content'. Criminal timers at least take away the penalty for gaining the initiative on a neutral hopefully encouraging more fights.
I'm in HS, and there's a neutral in local. He opens a mission, and enters. I'm in LS, and there's a neutral in local. He scans down a 6/10, and enters. I'm in NS, and there's a neutral in local. He warps to an anom.
In none of these scenarios do they magically go suspect so you can shoot them. It's up to you to make them engage you. All other considerations aside, explain to me why you believe a FW complex should be any different? I know why I would make you suspect for entering (and as I've already said, I think that's a stupid idea as well), but what makes you believe you should be allowed to engage militia pilots without taking a security status hit?
If you're going to flag everyone, you might as well just take down the gate guns and declare the war zone null-sec. |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1389
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 22:04:28 -
[67] - Quote
Let's think about a different approach. What is the problem? FW pilots tank sec status if agressing neutrals first within a plex, which is perceived unfair. From what I understand from CCP comments, suspending sec hits in certain regions or for certain player groups would need a major code rewrite. Other discussed fixes sound dirty ... so what about giving FW pilots a privileged access to sec tags? For example Concord could give them a discount in the number needed and fee to boost the status back to 0.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Heiian Conglomerate
1478
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 07:54:45 -
[68] - Quote
No need for aggression/suspect timers really.
They just need to make killing plex rats give some sec status increase like any other rat.
That way anyone who is actively o-plexing for their militia will easily offset any status hits just from continuing to do what they already do.
https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1390
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 08:11:46 -
[69] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:No need for aggression/suspect timers really.
They just need to make killing plex rats give some sec status increase like any other rat.
That way anyone who is actively o-plexing for their militia will easily offset any status hits just from continuing to do what they already do. Great, I (am neutral) would kill plex rats all spare time.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Nameira Vanis-Tor
Angry Mustellid
288
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 09:35:04 -
[70] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:No need for aggression/suspect timers really.
They just need to make killing plex rats give some sec status increase like any other rat.
That way anyone who is actively o-plexing for their militia will easily offset any status hits just from continuing to do what they already do.
An interesting idea, could cause problems on a lore side though. Your sec status is universal for high sec as it is assigned by CONCORD. Your sec status increases because you kill rats that are a universal threat to the High Sec Empires e.g. Blood Raiers, Angel Cartel, Drones etc.
It would be strange for CONCORD to credit you sec status for destroying empire navy ships defending their own military installations within their own sovereign space surely? |
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Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
366
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 11:46:59 -
[71] - Quote
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:No need for aggression/suspect timers really.
They just need to make killing plex rats give some sec status increase like any other rat.
That way anyone who is actively o-plexing for their militia will easily offset any status hits just from continuing to do what they already do. An interesting idea, could cause problems on a lore side though. Your sec status is universal for high sec as it is assigned by CONCORD. Your sec status increases because you kill rats that are a universal threat to the High Sec Empires e.g. Blood Raiers, Angel Cartel, Drones etc. It would be strange for CONCORD to credit you sec status for destroying empire navy ships defending their own military installations within their own sovereign space surely?
there is allways a way ... just ignore the rolleplaying part |
Nameira Vanis-Tor
Angry Mustellid
288
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 12:27:19 -
[72] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:No need for aggression/suspect timers really.
They just need to make killing plex rats give some sec status increase like any other rat.
That way anyone who is actively o-plexing for their militia will easily offset any status hits just from continuing to do what they already do. An interesting idea, could cause problems on a lore side though. Your sec status is universal for high sec as it is assigned by CONCORD. Your sec status increases because you kill rats that are a universal threat to the High Sec Empires e.g. Blood Raiers, Angel Cartel, Drones etc. It would be strange for CONCORD to credit you sec status for destroying empire navy ships defending their own military installations within their own sovereign space surely? there is allways a way ... just ignore the rolleplaying part
Well you could have the pressure on the Empires becoming too much and they have to rely on the militias completely to defend their warzone holdings. Then use the Empires new weakness to have every Plex occupied by the territory specific pirate rats who are 'attacking' the installation.
So Angel Cartel rats in Mini Space, Blood Raiders in Amarr, Serpentis in Gallente and Guristas in Caldari.
Then anyone either d-plexing or o-plexing would have to kill the rat, thus gaining sec status and the rat would attack a random capsuleer regardless of faction affiliation.
This then helps the sec status issue, is compatible with the lore and hurts stabbed/afk d-plexers.
Thoughts?
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Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
869
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 13:34:23 -
[73] - Quote
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:Hidden Snake wrote:Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:No need for aggression/suspect timers really.
They just need to make killing plex rats give some sec status increase like any other rat.
That way anyone who is actively o-plexing for their militia will easily offset any status hits just from continuing to do what they already do. An interesting idea, could cause problems on a lore side though. Your sec status is universal for high sec as it is assigned by CONCORD. Your sec status increases because you kill rats that are a universal threat to the High Sec Empires e.g. Blood Raiers, Angel Cartel, Drones etc. It would be strange for CONCORD to credit you sec status for destroying empire navy ships defending their own military installations within their own sovereign space surely? there is allways a way ... just ignore the rolleplaying part Well you could have the pressure on the Empires becoming too much and they have to rely on the militias completely to defend their warzone holdings. Then use the Empires new weakness to have every Plex occupied by the territory specific pirate rats who are 'attacking' the installation. So Angel Cartel rats in Mini Space, Blood Raiders in Amarr, Serpentis in Gallente and Guristas in Caldari. Then anyone either d-plexing or o-plexing would have to kill the rat, thus gaining sec status and the rat would attack a random capsuleer regardless of faction affiliation. This then helps the sec status issue, is compatible with the lore and hurts stabbed/afk d-plexers. Thoughts?
How would that hurt stabbed farmers? They don't shoot back anyways and just roll over and die while rolling in dosh, LP and killrights WHILE maintaining their current sec status.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
500
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 13:45:11 -
[74] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:No need for aggression/suspect timers really.
They just need to make killing plex rats give some sec status increase like any other rat.
That way anyone who is actively o-plexing for their militia will easily offset any status hits just from continuing to do what they already do.
Only if they remove faction standings loss for killing plex rats. |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1372
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 14:09:46 -
[75] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
A vital point for Sugar Kyle. The reason there is such a need for new members of FW is because there is no real long game. The incentives to stay in FW, after the initial honeymoon, are none other than LP to Isk rewards being high.
Do not stop at enhancing the new capsuleer experience in FW and then ignore the changes that are needed to give reason to stay in FW. I look forward to a thread being posted requesting further ideas on this.
Torbrand Mandero wrote:As a newbro myself dabbling in FW over the past two weeks, I'll share my notes:.....
There seems to be a lack of focus on the actual objective of FW, which is capturing plexes to capture systems. I get this, because lots of people are simply looking for fights. I feel like some plexes take too long to capture. Sitting 20 minutes on a plex in order to capture it isn't fun. . I think this feeling is exactly what many in faction war go through. They think they a signing up to fight for some sort of reason. And then they find they are just pirates that get lp. I certainly went through it when I started faction war. My best friend started in faction war about a month ago and I was talking to him on the phone and he says something like: "you know I noticed no one really cares about actually winning sov. We go into plexes just for fights. I mean its ok and like the pvp but I don't see any difference between us the neutrals we are fighting much of the time."
I think this sort of dissillusionment is a considerable problem. If faction war is to remain piracy with lp bonuses and station lock out negatives that would be unfortunate but ok. Just don't make people think it is more than that. The current plex mechanics have a lot going for them. They may very well be one of the best small scale pvp mechanics in the game. But they do need some tweaks to really make gaining territory for your faction fun.
I posted a thread in features and ideas that involves that topic. I won't copy them here because they are not all for new players. They are for all fw players who think it might be good to fight for sov.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6038178#post6038178
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1514
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 14:24:46 -
[76] - Quote
The SOV system itself isnt and should not be the reason for being in FW imo, it is there to drive conflict and it does so perfectly well. If you start pushing SOV in someones home system its amazing how quickly everyone there starts to care about it.
The fact that no one cares about SOV in strategically useless non-station system doesnt strike me as a fault in the mechanics. But even those systems play a role in any factions ambition to hit higher tiers.
The level of tier rewards is certainly open for discussion.
The only thing that should make taking systems fun is watching your enemy fail to defend a system. If no one does defend it, you still get the reward of an extra system towards your tier but the fun will be deferred to a point where you decide to attack something that someone else cares about. This is simply because in an EVE SOV war, owning the system is not the fun part, taking it from someone is.
As for plex times. This is something a lot of people struggle with in EVE. Many do not appreciates that it takes time for things to happen because you are relying on other people to notice you, then respond. The length of time to complete a plex will not effect the volume of conflict. In fact i would expect that shorter plex timers will result in more chasing than fighting.
I know you would love plexes to broadcast faction wide that they are under attack with player names and ship types and i think you even mentioned once, what their fit is. But lets be realistic, with experience and activitiy this all comes naturally. Encouraging people to stay docked until they get a notification about something they care about is still a terrible idea. If you care about something, you should be undocked generating this intelligence yourself.
The biggest thing players can do to influence the amount of conflict a plex generates for them is completely in their control. Its not a question of mechanics, its a question of where they choose to plex.
As for this thread, until cerain posted i think all the basics were covered. |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1372
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 17:18:08 -
[77] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:The SOV system itself isnt and should not be the reason for being in FW imo,
Ok thanks for your opinion, it is valid, and shared by many. But understand that allot of people do want fighting for sov to be the reason to join faction war. (although many of them are no longer in fw because fighting for sov is not fun) The thing is CCP can make both sides happy. They can improve the sov system to make fighting for it a valid reason to be in fw. Those who are in faction war for other reasons can just enjoy having more pilots involved in the game. If you want to roam around and do random pvp with the occasional system push you still can. It's a win win.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: The fact that no one cares about SOV in strategically useless non-station system doesnt strike me as a fault in the mechanics. But even those systems play a role in any factions ambition to hit higher tiers.
The problem with ambitions to hit higher tiers is that in order to achieve those ambitions you have to do boring grinds. Unfit frigates in defensive plexes and multiple alts in o-plexes. CCP can tweak the mechanics to change this so that fw occupancy warfare involves much more exciting and challenging pvp.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: The level of tier rewards is certainly open for discussion.
I agree its open for discussion. But I doubt people leave faction war because the rewards aren't good enough. The problem is there are no long term goals that are fun to achieve. If fighting for sov was fun CCP wouldn't even need to add rewards. I think that is what they envisioned when fw came out and there were no rewards. Now CCP gave tons of rewards and people can't see past the isk to understand if the sov war is actually fun to wage.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: The only thing that should make taking systems fun is watching your enemy fail to defend a system. .
At this point you are telling they shouldn't find anything fun other than what you find fun. As for me I do not think its fun when the enemy fails to defend their system. It's boring.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1372
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 17:19:44 -
[78] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote: As for plex times. This is something a lot of people struggle with in EVE. Many do not appreciates that it takes time for things to happen because you are relying on other people to notice you, then respond. The length of time to complete a plex will not effect the volume of conflict. In fact i would expect that shorter plex timers will result in more chasing than fighting..
I appreciate this very much. That is why in order to make the sov war more fun and exciting to wage I recomend giving players better intel tools so that they will respond quicker and we will end up with more pvp per plex.
It is likely true that shortening plex timers would increase running and decrease pvp. That is why I don't recomend shortening the plex time but increasing the vp gained per plex. Like it used to be before inferno. For those who don't know increasing the vp per plex would mean finishing it faster would have a larger effect on the contested level.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: I know you would love plexes to broadcast faction wide that they are under attack with player names and ship types and i think you even mentioned once, what their fit is. But lets be realistic, with experience and activitiy this all comes naturally. Encouraging people to stay docked until they get a notification about something they care about is still a terrible idea. If you care about something, you should be undocked generating this intelligence yourself.
The biggest thing players can do to influence the amount of conflict a plex generates for them is completely in their control. Its not a question of mechanics, its a question of where they choose to plex.
Ok first I never said give the fit away. But I am in favor of better intel about plexes being attacked. This was requested by faction war players when Ank was still in faction war. The intel could be by map or otherwise just so it is accessible and in real time. More intel means the ability to give a quicker pvp response. Better pvp response means fw sov war becomes more fun and exciting.
Of course, I also never suggested people should stay docked. It should be intel that they can view while in space.
Yes of course we can choose to plex now. But it is insanely boring so very few bother other than to get fights or farm lp. You can keep blaming the players and not the mechanics. But it's really not the players fault that this is so boring and anyway the players aren't about to suddenly change. It is up to ccp to make the mechanics fw sov warfare more exciting.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Arla Sarain
650
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 17:35:20 -
[79] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:The SOV system itself isn't and should not be the reason for being in FW imo, it is there to drive conflict and it does so perfectly well Sounds self contradictory and somewhat toxic - what SHOULD the reason for being in FW be then, if not for sov? If it's for the PvP, there are much better prospects than FW, for a broad variety of reasons. If its LP, then FW just breeds aversion to risk and encounters. Not saying there is a right or wrong - just that each of these choices will bring out certain behaviours that we may or may not like/want to be part of FW.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:As for plex times. This is something a lot of people struggle with in EVE. Many do not appreciates that it takes time for things to happen because you are relying on other people to notice you, then respond. The length of time to complete a plex will not effect the volume of conflict. In fact i would expect that shorter plex timers will result in more chasing than fighting.
One of the primary endorsements to be in FW is the advertised "earn as you go and kind of PvP" method of wealth accumulation, which is attractive to PvP focused newbros because it supposedly lets them kill two birds with one stone. Except the system does not successfully achieve to fuel itself with a need for combat, in fact it does the opposite. Farmers are one thing, but even players that desire fights freuqently would prefer to just blueball.
Long plex timers are one of few reasons for that. The discouraging mechanic is manifested when you lose a plex fight, because you lose twice, the hull and the control over the plex. Control over the plex is partially measured in time invested. You could argue one can reship and comeback, but the time will already be lost and there is no guarantee that you will recover the plex ownership. This puts a strain on the plex occupant, where he must toss up the value of the time invested plus his potential hull loss against the value of the somewhat vaguely possible victory in the advancing encounter imposed by the guy on the other side of the gate.
For whatever reason, there exists a mechanic that may cause the assailant to lose interest in occupying a partially run plex (if only all of us had the fortitude that Moglarr has). On what occasion is it not the smarter decision to employ a strategy that makes this happen? You don't lose the hull, and any time spent on warping in/out seems fictional in comparison to the time spent orbiting the beacon and spamming D-SCAN whilst waiting for a favourable match-up. Losing the hull may sound trivial in value (and likely is in the grand scheme of things), but you mentioned yourself once in the farmer discussion, that the pain is in the logistics, which never gets better, even when "living close to the fight", because that is still docking/undocking/gate jumping/warping to safe/d-scan for encounters. And the more interest you demonstrate, the more reasons you give your previous opponent to stay "and fight and have fun" which to most feels more like harassment.
To end the rambling, the justification for shorter plex timers is that with a lower time investment comes less attachment. That's not to say that the chasing you mention is not a risk of this. But with less time invested lost due to a PvP loss and consequent loss of plex ownership has the opportunity to inspire a more laid back attitude towards losing a PvP encounter in general, hence encouraging more people to stay and fight.
For example quarter the timers (and rewards) for a novice; if one is successful in finishing the first 3 quarters and is contested on the last quarter, with comparison to current timers, it is obvious that in the latter scenario he stands to lose more. Whilst the negligible commitment in the former case is grounds for "giving it a try".
This can be argued both ways, like, a bigger risk/reward is what inspires people to stay and fight, which may be true, but the current evidence points to the opposite, since people demonstrate a lack of commitment to giving the contestant a reason to go at it.
Another positive point with shorter timers is rolling them back becomes less painful. For the same quarter timer, rolling back and closing slightly less than 5 minutes is far less agonising than slightly less than 20...
On the flip side, it does introduce an all-or-nothing pressure for the groups that compete over the vulnerability bar. The timers now allow for mounting a counter-attack in the event of a loss. Shorter timers will likely prevent that from being a concern. Shorter timers will also likely have to be followed with a reduction in VP contribution, which will reduce the value of losing a plex in the context of system control.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:The biggest thing players can do to influence the amount of conflict a plex generates for them is completely in their control. Its not a question of mechanics, its a question of where they choose to plex.
The majority don't actually go to a plex to get conflict. It's just a side bonus, and only in the event of a favourable match up. And that's something that should change. People should go plexing to get a fight.
EDIT: I did a thing with the keyboard and the writing and then the POST button pressing I probably shouldn't have |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1514
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 00:30:10 -
[80] - Quote
Cerain, you assert that CCP can make fighting for SOV in a system no one cares about can be fun but the only suggestion you have ever put forward is for all player driven Intel to be replaced with NPC Intel. There is a blatant vacuum of reasoning here.
If the defender doesnt care about a system then capturing that system will not be fun. It may be profitable, which is the trade off. the old school SOV warriors are no longer with us because its too hard for a small number of people to keep their boot on the neck of the opposing faction with almost no effort like it was in the past iterations. Good riddance is what i say.
The new mechanics are awesome because there is no realistic way that even an overwhelming force can keep 100% control over an organised opposition.
There is nothing CCP can do to make SOV interesting in a system that both sides care nothing for. Just asserting that "CCP can improve the FW SOV game simply by making it 1000% better" is outrageously vacuous and the main reason i respond to you with utter disregard.
Grinds are not unique to EVE. In fact they are a necessary evil for every MMO i have ever seen. The benefit of EVE is that grinding is a choice.
There are no arbitrary long term goals in FW because there are no arbitrary long term goals in EVE. Goals are entirely player driven. While there are goal posts, its up to people if they want to score.
I am not telling people how to play, im just saying that expecting a system push to be fun in a system where there is literally no opposition is a failure of expectations.
As for better intel and plexes being boring, the characters i plex with can barely finish a plex without 2/3 attempts from local WT or PIES trying to kill them. Obviously, at this point not that many folk attack my main, but because of that i have adjusted. The issues with people avoiding my main is relatively rare among the newer people this thread is addressed toward.
Aria, historically the reason for being in FW is PvP. TBH, even SOV is a very minor factor in why people fight compared to SOV-tied station lockouts which is the major conflict driver in FW. In my limited experience there is no better arena than FW for PVP, it would be interesting what you would assert as an alternative, specially with regards to newer players.
Now if we want to talk about self contradictory, in one paragraph you suggest that people in FW are "just bread for aversion to risk and encounters to farm LP" and in the next you laud FW and its LP mechanic as it is "attractive to PvP focused newbros because it supposedly lets them kill two birds with one stone".
You cant have your cake and eat it too. Its much simpler to acknowledge that the current mechanics can be farmed to some extent but also drive a huge amount of combat for those that have the notion to look for it.
As for balance yes, someone who is offensively plexing will find reships/winning individual fights harder than an organised defense. I really struggle to identify a problem with this. People choosing to sustain an engagement or bail for an easier life cannot be addressed with mechanics.
You say that lower plex timers give less attachment as though that is a benefit. lets remember that some of these plexes are being run in systems where people have all their assets. On a macro level the system already benefits the attacker, since there is no goal post where a system is 'DEFENDED', there is only the grit and determination of the defender to make the attacker withdraw.
In your final paragraph you say that most people are just farmers, as though mechanics should be considered in their favor?
In short, your post was eclectic and confusing to the point where i have no idea what your vision for FW is;. Unlike cerain who has a horrible vision for EVE FW. |
|
Arla Sarain
651
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 11:17:35 -
[81] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote: Aria, historically the reason for being in FW is PvP. ... interesting what you would assert as an alternative, specially with regards to newer players.
Maybe I exaggerated by making it seem plural, but RvB is an alternative. Most newer players end up making highsec their primary area of operations by sticking to missions, jumping into a perpetual war only a few jumps out of the most popular trade hub seems natural. The only thing FW has over it seems to be that's mechanically easier to become a member of a militia thanks to the dedicated UI.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:in one paragraph you suggest that people in FW are "just bread for aversion to risk and encounters to farm LP" and in the next you laud FW and its LP mechanic as it is "attractive to PvP focused newbros because it supposedly lets them kill two birds with one stone".
You cant have your cake and eat it too. Its much simpler to acknowledge that the current mechanics can be farmed to some extent but also drive a huge amount of combat for those that have the notion to look for it. The misrepresentation is that by joining FW you are signing up to a mechanic which lets you PvP and earn wealth, both inclusive in one form of activity. The reality is that they are exclusive and two separate forms of activities. You don't find this counterproductive if as you say the primary reason to join FW is to PvP? I suppose the problem is difficult to perceive for well established players with countless assets at their disposal.
To elaborate, plexing isn't one form of activity. Sitting in one is a preamble, an opportunity to get a fight. Capturing it is the method of by which you fatten your wallet. For most players, it boils down to doing one or the other. It's not about having a simple life, but about optimising.You end up with people who want to PvP, join FW, and instead find themselves more focused on building financial capital that they can then burn on care free PvP. Of course then the parallel can be drawn to RvB, where you grind first and PvP later. If you find that OK that is... Crosi Wesdo wrote:i have no idea what your vision for FW is Cakes are meant to be eaten. I want to have the cake and eat it too and I don't see why that shouldn't be a thing in FW.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:People choosing to sustain an engagement or bail for an easier life cannot be addressed with mechanics. Why should the bolded part even be a dilemma for FW participants, that's the point I'm trying to convey. And why can it not be addressed with mechanics? Sounds like large leap in logic based on previous lack of spontaneous 10/10 ideas. We'll get there someday...I do not see how this relates to the potential of people being less averse to losing a plex fight and an actual PvP encounter (not a system wide conflict), on the simple premise that the value of each individual plex and the time invested would be much lower. You stand less to lose, in contrast to spontaneously devaluing the last X minutes you sat orbiting the beacon. Note I'm not talking about the first 2-3 minutes. |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
758
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 13:54:31 -
[82] - Quote
Something tells me that Arla has never been in FW, and is just relying on what she has read or heard. |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1372
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 14:07:46 -
[83] - Quote
BTW I think Thanatos Marathon hit many of the quick fixes for new players.
One point I would make though is that instead of removing t3ds from smalls, I think making a rookie plex that only allows vanilla t1 frigates might be better.
The t3d is definitely the most powerful ship that can go in a small. It used to be assault ships were. But I do think it is closer in power to other destroyers and assault ships (smalls) rather than HACs and pirate cruisers(mediums).
At least there are 4 decent t3ds that have decent parity. Novices would be better if they buffed the pirate faction ships beside the Garmurs and worms. (or nerf those 2)
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
504
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 17:05:13 -
[84] - Quote
Cearain wrote:BTW I think Thanatos Marathon hit many of the quick fixes for new players.
One point I would make though is that instead of removing t3ds from smalls, I think making a rookie plex that only allows vanilla t1 frigates might be better.
The t3d is definitely the most powerful ship that can go in a small. It used to be assault ships were. But I do think it is closer in power to other destroyers and assault ships (smalls) rather than HACs and pirate cruisers(mediums).
At least there are 4 decent t3ds that have decent parity. Novices would be better if they buffed the pirate faction ships beside the Garmurs and worms. (or nerf those 2)
There are issues with adding additional plexes that need to be addressed if they go that route. It's definitely been brought up though.
T3Ds will still have a place if they are banned from smalls, and it would give AFs back their niche.
I definitely fall on the side of reducing the strength of the garmur and worm. Other pirate frigs are stronk, but those two are just nuts. |
Samuel Triptee
Frankenstuff
111
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 14:47:29 -
[85] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:Most beginners complain to me about not being able to be taxed on their LP. An LP Tax would help them a lot.
If I remember correctly my tax rate was about 1 ship per 5 plexes
Have You Hugged Your Frigate Today?
|
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1372
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 15:39:47 -
[86] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote: I definitely fall on the side of reducing the strength of the garmur and worm. Other pirate frigs are stronk, but those two are just nuts.
One thing that sort of makes this hard to understand in faction war is the plex restrictions versus the actual intended power of the ships.
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg
Note some modification of this here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKx87NwKaIE&feature=youtu.be&t=8m19s
Now according to this chart it would seem that pirate faction frigates are supposed to be more powerful than tech 2 frigates. Now I think with interceptors ccp did accomplish its objective. I wouldn't say interceptors are more powerful than pirate frigates but they are more specialized and perform their specialized role better. But assault frigates just seem clearly more powerful than pirate ships except for the garmur and worm.
So the question is whether the other pirate ships are supposed to be where the garmur and worm are, or are assault ships supposed to be stronger than pirate frigates as the current plex restrictions seem to imply?
It would make sense that a pirate frigate that costs 2 to 3 times as much as a assault frigate would be more powerful. But it seems to me that other than the worm and garmur they are clearly less powerful. The daredevil is sort of middle of the road. But the dram succubus and cruror are quite a bit weaker than afs. I would say the succubus cruror and dram are on par with plain navy frigates that often cost about 20% as much. I would say you have in order gaining power 1)vannilla t1 frigates, 2)navy faction frigates along with succubus, cruror and dram, 3)Daredevil and t1 destroyers 4) AFs 5) worm and garmur
IMO if ccp wants to justify the price of pirate frigates so they are more powerfull than afs then they need to bring the other pirate frigs up to be competitive with the worm and garmur. (I would think they would also then not allow pirate frigates in novices)
If however they want the power of the ships to match the plex restrictions so t2 ships should be more powerfull then it would seem we should bring the pirate ships in line with the daredevil.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
194
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 09:54:42 -
[87] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:Most beginners complain to me about not being able to be taxed on their LP. An LP Tax would help them a lot. New players and new entrants to FW come to you and state that their game would be improved if they could just have their LP taxed?
They would if they knew what was best for them.
Also the ability to donate/contract/sell LP to other players because for new players without neutral alt, and not much liquid isk it's nearly as hard to liquidate lp as it is to earn it. I don't think anyone would miss the hassle of cashing out lp, most would be happy to sell it at a discount to a trader to get the isk.
The best way to balance fw missions is to delete them.
and this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=447801&find=unread |
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
195
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 12:20:50 -
[88] - Quote
Samuel Triptee wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:Most beginners complain to me about not being able to be taxed on their LP. An LP Tax would help them a lot. If I remember correctly my tax rate was about 1 ship per 5 plexes
Mine was about 5 ships per plex - but then my ceo was also new to faction war and he decided we should start by taking Nisuwa from the Gals. |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1372
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 14:02:39 -
[89] - Quote
Fourteen Maken wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:Most beginners complain to me about not being able to be taxed on their LP. An LP Tax would help them a lot. New players and new entrants to FW come to you and state that their game would be improved if they could just have their LP taxed? They would if they knew what was best for them. Also the ability to donate/contract/sell LP to other players because for new players without neutral alt, and not much liquid isk it's nearly as hard to liquidate lp as it is to earn it. I don't think anyone would miss the hassle of cashing out lp, most would be happy to sell it at a discount to a trader to get the isk. The best way to balance fw missions is to delete them. and this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=447801&find=unread
The lp market crashed because CCP was and is very slow to tweak the faction war lp faucets. You are right that fw missions are a huge part of that faucet. But I do not think they should be deleted just have the level 4 mission amounts toned down.
I thought many corps are already offering an lp buy back plan for their players. And many corps already would help with logistics for new players. Although being able to give lp to another player or corp would be nice, I am not sure how taxing lp helps new players.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
196
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 16:58:28 -
[90] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Fourteen Maken wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:Most beginners complain to me about not being able to be taxed on their LP. An LP Tax would help them a lot. New players and new entrants to FW come to you and state that their game would be improved if they could just have their LP taxed? They would if they knew what was best for them. Also the ability to donate/contract/sell LP to other players because for new players without neutral alt, and not much liquid isk it's nearly as hard to liquidate lp as it is to earn it. I don't think anyone would miss the hassle of cashing out lp, most would be happy to sell it at a discount to a trader to get the isk. The best way to balance fw missions is to delete them. and this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=447801&find=unread The lp market crashed because CCP was and is very slow to tweak the faction war lp faucets. You are right that fw missions are a huge part of that faucet. But I do not think they should be deleted just have the level 4 mission amounts toned down. I thought many corps are already offering an lp buy back plan for their players. And many corps already would help with logistics for new players. Although being able to give lp to another player or corp would be nice, I am not sure how taxing lp helps new players.
If LP was taxable it would make fw corps better able to fund SRP, and pay fc's to take new bro's on roams/ create content etc. It would also incentivise corps to recruit new players and make sure the new players know what they're doing because they can be out earning LP from day one if they're shown how to do it right. The NPC militia corps should also have a flat tax, allowing player run corps to undercut it and give lone wolfs more incentive to join up.
I think it would help in a lot of ways, and what's good for FW is good for everyone in it - including new players.
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
|
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Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
505
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 18:31:10 -
[91] - Quote
Fourteen Maken wrote:If LP was taxable it would make fw corps better able to fund SRP, and pay fc's to take new bro's on roams/ create content etc. It would also incentivise corps to recruit new players and make sure the new players know what they're doing because they can be out earning LP from day one if they're shown how to do it right. The NPC militia corps should also have a flat tax, allowing player run corps to undercut it and give lone wolfs more incentive to join up. I think it would help in a lot of ways, and what's good for FW is good for everyone in it - including new players.
Legacy Code. Not happening anytime soon.
- Than |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3397
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 21:13:59 -
[92] - Quote
what happened to the CSM minutes?
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
|
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
897
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 04:26:03 -
[93] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Fourteen Maken wrote:If LP was taxable it would make fw corps better able to fund SRP, and pay fc's to take new bro's on roams/ create content etc. It would also incentivise corps to recruit new players and make sure the new players know what they're doing because they can be out earning LP from day one if they're shown how to do it right. The NPC militia corps should also have a flat tax, allowing player run corps to undercut it and give lone wolfs more incentive to join up. I think it would help in a lot of ways, and what's good for FW is good for everyone in it - including new players. Legacy Code. Not happening anytime soon. - Than
LP is legacy code? Care to provide a source on that claim?
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
|
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
521
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 01:01:46 -
[94] - Quote
Yang Aurilen wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote:Fourteen Maken wrote:If LP was taxable it would make fw corps better able to fund SRP, and pay fc's to take new bro's on roams/ create content etc. It would also incentivise corps to recruit new players and make sure the new players know what they're doing because they can be out earning LP from day one if they're shown how to do it right. The NPC militia corps should also have a flat tax, allowing player run corps to undercut it and give lone wolfs more incentive to join up. I think it would help in a lot of ways, and what's good for FW is good for everyone in it - including new players. Legacy Code. Not happening anytime soon. - Than LP is legacy code? Care to provide a source on that claim?
Just ask any CCP dev who has ever looked at it, or CSM reps. |
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
199
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 12:34:20 -
[95] - Quote
How about civilian plexes for rookie ships only.
10mins capture time, 500LP in t1, and no effect on system control.
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
|
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
230
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 12:58:33 -
[96] - Quote
Another (yes it is rather late now) idea that may benefit the Militia newbro's "orientation" would be to perhaps add a couple of jump gates from the high sec system that links the Warzone to the nearest trade hub.
Eg:
Caldari Nourvoukaiken would receive two additional jumps connecting to Kedama and Onatoh.
Amarr Are less affected as Sasiekko, Myherra & Netsalakka are all connected and all link to lowsec.
Gallente Villore would be linked to Jovainnon and Vifrevaert
etc..
?
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
|
Oreb Wing
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
104
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 04:19:19 -
[97] - Quote
Came back from the dead so I could chime in my ten cents. Biggest problems I see (or saw) from new players is:
1) got killed in high sec at the nearest militia station to respective faction trade hub. 9 times out of 10 off the undock. Changes have been proposed. I would like to add that I access a murder nest of Norv. for a few quick modules/rigs here and there. I will be sad to lose access to an enemy station in such cases.
2) awoxers. Best plan was to shift default overview tags to bump friendly associations higher that criminal status', imo. When awoxing occurs to the unsuspecting allied faction pilot, the heavy consequence for ally aggression seems like the best bet also.
3)isk generation in lowsec. Many new recruits have trouble understanding how to convert LP once they have it, or where, which leads them, naturally, to the closest 'safest' militia station, where much butthurt ensues as they attempt to undock with they new goodies. PI is actually very lucrative within lowsec and can generate enough for a single account to fly t1 frig-cruiser in a haphazard way. DED/anoms get cleared by proficient EU time zone minorities, in most cases. FW LP plexing is not so bad. FW missions...
4)FW missions have been the greatest flaw and boon. An expansive article can be made on its effects on tier swing, its manipulation for market scarcity price modulation for relevant navy ships/modules. The ships mostly responsible are stealth bombers, who, much like yore Entosis link interceptors of null, can exploit the system while doing so in a very proficient and safer way. Restrict t2&t3 from entering these missions and this will end with a horrible gasp. No need for reward calculation changes or added npc's/sentry turrets. Every faction can use its own respective navy cruiser to complete these solo, if uninterrupted. :) The payout is worth that risk. It is very high. It ultimately affects the poorest when their bread and butter LP items are devalued.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
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Spartikos Asterius
Gallente Special Operations Center
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 21:17:10 -
[98] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:I think the guys above have covered most of the stuff.
Default Militia-specific overview available. Stops newbie awox issues of newbs shooting FW pilots with low standings. Automatic suspect flag in plexes. Keeps noob standings high so they can still live in high sec. Get rid of allied-militia purple OR hammer standings for allied militia kills (Gallente on Minmatar violence, for example). - The current war is defined as Gallente+Minmatar vs. Caldari+Amarr. - Either set the game up so this is true, or break it apart to a real four way war. No ambiguity. Ban high sec station access to opposing militia. Gets rid of high sec station games (vets preying on noobs in Jita/Dodixie/Rens).
Edit: Re-phrasing to emphasize pain points for noobs: 1. Getting killed by own militia because they accidently shoot fellow militia and / or fleet mates because overview is set up poorly. 2. Sec status loss having to fight neutrals in plexes makes living in high sec very difficult. 3. Large barrier to entry for living in low sec without logistics backbone. 4. Understanding why somebody who is purple can shoot you with no repercussions. Like, WTF?!!! 5. Getting griefed in high sec by high sec camping specialists. Why are these guys able to dock in enemy systems?
I second all of this. I, and many others, can't be more emphatic about the issues addressed by X Gallentius. |
Burtakus
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
37
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 17:53:03 -
[99] - Quote
Lots of great ideas. It's is wonderful to see so many folks with a vested interest in making FW a better place in EVE. I can only add my perspective based on my experiences. FW is the reason I got back into EVE after a 4-year break and why I stay in EVE . Keeping it healthy is trough these ideas mentioned is great.
It would be nice if there was a capability for each NPC corp to have rotation assignments where veterans can take a month (or some other arbitrary time frame) and be on assignment to an NPC corp with the goal of teaching the newbros a specific skill in FW. This could include basics such as fitting a proper PvP ship, fleet mechanics and roles, tackling, etc. Eve-UNI does this for the general population but a capability for each faction to be able to do that would be great.
Make it so Missions need to be run in a PvP ship. Not sure how exactly to make that happen but the recent Blood Raider sites could probably form a good starting point.
I don't really see an issues with Garmurs and Worms. Yes, they are somewhat OP, but they are easily countered if you know what you are doing. T3D's are similar to Garmurs and Worms in that they are somewhat OP but easily countered in my opinion. For the newbros that counter primarily consists of forming a small fleet and using sheer numbers to overtake them. To that end forming fleets of noobs should be made easier. Perhaps that could be a part of the NPC corp thing where visiting FC's help the new bros go out and kill shinies.
The standing hit and suspect timer that you get to shooting a neutral that enters your plex is very annoying and very damaging to a new person getting into the spirit of FW. I am strongly of the opinion that entering a plex gives you a suspect timer unless in FW
I also don't see too much of an issue with the current state of high sec hunting except perhaps the distracting the Navy thing. Never done that so not sure how it works but the escalating effects on higher security systems works well enough that it can be a fairly risky proposition to camp.
Not going to address OGB's since that topic induces vomiting all over the forums and has been covered ad naseum.
+ most of what was already said.
Burt
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Doctor Knuckles
Black Fox Marauders
177
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Posted - 2015.11.05 11:20:51 -
[100] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote: I definitely fall on the side of reducing the strength of the garmur and worm. Other pirate frigs are stronk, but those two are just nuts.
One thing that sort of makes this hard to understand in faction war is the plex restrictions versus the actual intended power of the ships. http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg Note some modification of this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKx87NwKaIE&feature=youtu.be&t=8m19s Now according to this chart it would seem that pirate faction frigates are supposed to be more powerful than tech 2 frigates. Now I think with interceptors ccp did accomplish its objective. I wouldn't say interceptors are more powerful than pirate frigates but they are more specialized and perform their specialized role better. But assault frigates just seem clearly more powerful than pirate ships except for the garmur and worm. So the question is whether the other pirate ships are supposed to be where the garmur and worm are, or are assault ships supposed to be stronger than pirate frigates as the current plex restrictions seem to imply? It would make sense that a pirate frigate that costs 2 to 3 times as much as a assault frigate would be more powerful. But it seems to me that other than the worm and garmur they are clearly less powerful. The daredevil is sort of middle of the road. But the dram succubus and cruror are quite a bit weaker than afs. I would say the succubus cruror and dram are on par with plain navy frigates that often cost about 20% as much. I would say you have in order gaining power 1)vannilla t1 frigates, 2)navy faction frigates along with succubus, cruror and dram, 3)Daredevil and t1 destroyers 4) AFs 5) worm and garmur IMO if ccp wants to justify the price of pirate frigates so they are more powerfull than afs then they need to bring the other pirate frigs up to be competitive with the worm and garmur. (I would think they would also then not allow pirate frigates in novices) If however they want the power of the ships to match the plex restrictions so t2 ships should be more powerfull then it would seem we should bring the pirate ships in line with the daredevil.
what
no, just no. Except the Cruor, pirate frigs (well, some fits) can absolutely **** on most AFs, and generally rip navy frigs apart, no way they can be put on the same level
Example, Succubus (underpowered in your opinion) can completely murder hawks, harpies, enyons, wolves, jags, retris. TBH the only ones it has problems dealing with are brick tank ishkurs and vengeances, but it can easily disengage from them.
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1429
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Posted - 2015.11.05 20:57:07 -
[101] - Quote
Doctor Knuckles wrote:Cearain wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote: I definitely fall on the side of reducing the strength of the garmur and worm. Other pirate frigs are stronk, but those two are just nuts.
One thing that sort of makes this hard to understand in faction war is the plex restrictions versus the actual intended power of the ships. http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg Note some modification of this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKx87NwKaIE&feature=youtu.be&t=8m19s Now according to this chart it would seem that pirate faction frigates are supposed to be more powerful than tech 2 frigates. Now I think with interceptors ccp did accomplish its objective. I wouldn't say interceptors are more powerful than pirate frigates but they are more specialized and perform their specialized role better. But assault frigates just seem clearly more powerful than pirate ships except for the garmur and worm. So the question is whether the other pirate ships are supposed to be where the garmur and worm are, or are assault ships supposed to be stronger than pirate frigates as the current plex restrictions seem to imply? It would make sense that a pirate frigate that costs 2 to 3 times as much as a assault frigate would be more powerful. But it seems to me that other than the worm and garmur they are clearly less powerful. The daredevil is sort of middle of the road. But the dram succubus and cruror are quite a bit weaker than afs. I would say the succubus cruror and dram are on par with plain navy frigates that often cost about 20% as much. I would say you have in order gaining power 1)vannilla t1 frigates, 2)navy faction frigates along with succubus, cruror and dram, 3)Daredevil and t1 destroyers 4) AFs 5) worm and garmur IMO if ccp wants to justify the price of pirate frigates so they are more powerfull than afs then they need to bring the other pirate frigs up to be competitive with the worm and garmur. (I would think they would also then not allow pirate frigates in novices) If however they want the power of the ships to match the plex restrictions so t2 ships should be more powerfull then it would seem we should bring the pirate ships in line with the daredevil. what no, just no. Except the Cruor, pirate frigs (well, some fits) can absolutely **** on most AFs, and generally rip navy frigs apart, no way they can be put on the same level Example, Succubus (underpowered in your opinion) can completely murder hawks, harpies, enyons, wolves, jags, retris. TBH the only ones it has problems dealing with are brick tank ishkurs and vengeances, but it can easily disengage from them.
I don't know what to say other than I just disagree on both a fleet level and on a smaller gang/solo level. Wolves and Jags are not great I agree. But a gang of them could easilly fight off a group succubus. The retribution is one ship that I agree could use a buff. The succubus may be able to get away but it won't hold a plex from the vast majority of assault ships.
They cost 2-3xs as much and are just weaker than afs.
Yes pirate frigates are generally are stronger than navy frigates but they are supposed to be since they are about 5-6xs the cost. Even there the dramiel is pretty pathetic.
edit: tracking might be an issue for solo wolves so I changed that to groups.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Doctor Knuckles
Black Fox Marauders
178
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Posted - 2015.11.06 14:55:51 -
[102] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
I don't know what to say other than I just disagree on both a fleet level and on a smaller gang/solo level. Wolves and Jags are not great I agree. But a gang of them could easilly fight off a group succubus. The retribution is one ship that I agree could use a buff. The succubus may be able to get away but it won't hold a plex from the vast majority of assault ships.
They cost 2-3xs as much and are just weaker than afs.
Succubus is no fleet hull (like most pirate frigs). It shines as a solo boat, or at most as a (very) small gang guest star.
But solo... oh man. I ******* love it. Try it again, trust me.
But, let's take a moment to see how it fares against AFs, 1v1.
- Hawk, the classic dual masb fit. Succubus orbits at edge of scram range fast as ****, rockets fall short or deal extremely low damage if he loads javs. You're shooting into its resist hole. Hawk dies.
- Harpy. Blaster fit? Orbit at scram range, or keep at distance or orbit close if you're rocking an armor fit with a TD. Rails? orbit close, it won't track you for ****. Flawless victory both cases. Once again shooting into resist hole.
- Enyo. Same as Harpy mostly, blaster enyos might need a td on them to outrack them tho. Not shooting into resist hole but enyos aren't generally all that tanky
- Retri. Well, two mids, you know how it goes.
Wolf and Jag, they suck, they die.
Now this leaves only Ishkur and Vengeance. Both are usually bricks, but tbh they can be done, just not easily. Ishkur if you manage to **** up its drones and still be alive (not impossible at all, your uber AB will reduce incoming damage quite a lot) he's toast really. Vengeance is trickier for the simple reason that it could literally take you ages to kill, but he can't really blap you either tbh |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1429
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Posted - 2015.11.06 18:12:02 -
[103] - Quote
Solo: All the mwd Afs are faster than an ab succubus. AFs have a nice bonus to mwds and usually decent fitting room (which the succubus lacks). So fitting a succubus to kite will probably not turn out well against most afs. I would rather have the mwd af every time. If you put a mwd on a succubus you are either losing a valuable mid (if you dual prop) or losing the main point of the ship (if you go without an ab).
Hawk: my CN rockets on a hawk hit out past scram range. Even with missile projection and bombardment at level 4 you hit to 13.2k. Most competent hawk pilots will at least put one tech 2 em shield rig on. Whether its 2 masbs or 1 with 2 webs the hawk has this fight pretty easilly. If you happened to fit a td to your succubus its even easier for the hawk. You might be able to get away but that is about it.
You may be able to get in close on a rail harpy or enyo but with an mwd they are faster than your succubus, albeit less manuverable. I'm calling that just a fun fight but I would still pick the rail mwd kiters.
As far as a blaster harpy/enyo with no back up plan for long range or scram kiting, then yeah they will die. But they will die to a kestrel. That is just a dumb way to fit a solo ship. Give me 2 enyos or 2 blarpys versus 2 succubus's and I am betting pretty hard on the afs.
As for the 2 midslot afs that is a problem for solo. The retri is really only about as good as the coercer. But in a gang with some some sort of logi the retri might have a place - I can't say.
The wolf has the resist profile to make shield tank but only has 2 midslots. Yeah that ship is in a bad place.
The jag is pretty bad as far as afs but that will likely kill or chase off a succubus fairly easilly. You seem to agree on the vengence and ishkur.
So solo I would say jag, hawk, ishkur and vengence win. I would take a rail harpy over a succubus but I would call that a tie. Enyo as a solo ship is better for jumping in on more than one frigate than a succubus but I will give you that and the wolf and retri.
The but the wolf and retri are really not solo ships with only 2 midslots.
So if solo is supposed to justify the succubus costing 2-3xs as much as an af I am not seeing it at all. There are just many clearly stronger afs to choose from. Its an overpriced ship that I would really love to be decent.
By and large what I said applies to all the other pirate frigates as well except the garmur and worm. The afs are simply more powerfull even when flown solo.
The big advantage of the succubus is that it is not so strong as afs so you will get more fights than if you sit there in a hawk ishkur or vengence.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Yang Aurilen
Conspiracy Theory. Project.Mayhem.
968
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Posted - 2015.11.06 22:57:14 -
[104] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Solo: All the mwd Afs are faster than an ab succubus. AFs have a nice bonus to mwds and usually decent fitting room (which the succubus lacks). So fitting a succubus to kite will probably not turn out well against most afs. I would rather have the mwd af every time. If you put a mwd on a succubus you are either losing a valuable mid (if you dual prop) or losing the main point of the ship (if you go without an ab).
Hawk: my CN rockets on a hawk hit out past scram range. Even with missile projection and bombardment at level 4 you hit to 13.2k. Most competent hawk pilots will at least put one tech 2 em shield rig on. Whether its 2 masbs or 1 with 2 webs the hawk has this fight pretty easilly. If you happened to fit a td to your succubus its even easier for the hawk. You might be able to get away but that is about it.
You may be able to get in close on a rail harpy or enyo but with an mwd they are faster than your succubus, albeit less manuverable. I'm calling that just a fun fight but I would still pick the rail mwd kiters.
As far as a blaster harpy/enyo with no back up plan for long range or scram kiting, then yeah they will die. But they will die to a kestrel. That is just a dumb way to fit a solo ship. Give me 2 enyos or 2 blarpys versus 2 succubus's and I am betting pretty hard on the afs.
As for the 2 midslot afs that is a problem for solo. The retri is really only about as good as the coercer. But in a gang with some some sort of logi the retri might have a place - I can't say.
The wolf has the resist profile to make shield tank but only has 2 midslots. Yeah that ship is in a bad place.
The jag is pretty bad as far as afs but that will likely kill or chase off a succubus fairly easilly. You seem to agree on the vengence and ishkur.
So solo I would say jag, hawk, ishkur and vengence win. I would take a rail harpy over a succubus but I would call that a tie. Enyo as a solo ship is better for jumping in on more than one frigate than a succubus but I will give you that and the wolf and retri.
The but the wolf and retri are really not solo ships with only 2 midslots.
So if solo is supposed to justify the succubus costing 2-3xs as much as an af I am not seeing it at all. There are just many clearly stronger afs to choose from. Its an overpriced ship that I would really love to be decent.
By and large what I said applies to all the other pirate frigates as well except the garmur and worm. The afs are simply more powerfull even when flown solo.
The big advantage of the succubus is that it is not so strong as afs so you will get more fights than if you sit there in a hawk ishkur or vengence.
You forgot the best part. Can enter novices so you can murder those who think they're safe inside novices.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
727
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Posted - 2015.11.07 18:58:59 -
[105] - Quote
I think the pirate frigs are mostly okay except for the garmur and the worm. Both of which only go from really good to pants on insane when combined with links.
Seriously, EFT a dual republic fleet MSE fit worm with max links. It's got almost as much EHP as a T1 cruiser. And the 10k m/s garmur needs no introduction.
The primary weakness of AF's is their speed, or lack thereof. They can't dictate range. |
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