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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 30 post(s) |
Bath Sheeba
Another Success Story
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 19:38:00 -
[91] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Starbase structures begin consuming fuel blocks exclusively on January 24th. Hopefully this timeline will allow you to build up a sizable stock of blocks, without ruining your Christmas. IGÇÖm sure your family will appreciate you not bringing your laptop to the Christmas dinner to start production jobs. Please keep in mind that on the day of the switch, POSs will ONLY consume fuel blocks and all the old items will no longer keep the starbase going.
We might be able to sneak a few more changes in, but for now, this is the timeframe for fuel blocks. Enjoy.
Well ain't this a kick in the f'ing pants.
Thanks for telling us in the orig dev blog that it would be "a couple of weeks later." That implies 2 or maybe 3.
WTF?
Great those fuel blocks I built will be dusty by the time I get to use them.
And now I got to go buy another set of fuel........
So thanks again, for keeping to the schedule you told us. I really appreciate it. "Enjoy" Yeah, right. |
Cristalen
Fleetworks ROMANIAN-LEGION
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 19:40:00 -
[92] - Quote
Now that we have a timeline do we still not know what the fuel block rate will do if someone's got a faction tower and/or Has sov owned in the system? I'm all for saving 5% in total fuel, but if my towers go to 10,20,40 per hour I'll be losing more money. I've tried searching the forums and sadly I can't find any information on this. |
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
338
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 19:42:00 -
[93] - Quote
oh **** me ... we've converted tons of our fuel to blocks already
I'm a ******* profanity filter that can catch **** and *****, but fuckin little else. -á
|
Letrange
Red Horizon Inc Cascade Probable
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 19:48:00 -
[94] - Quote
I realize that your original fuel changes blog posts did not give exact dates. But you did specify that you'll give a couple of weeks time from bpo seeding to fuel use switchover. However the wording of that seemed to indicate that it would be 2-3 weeks between the seeding and the implementation - not 8 weeks. Smells of "we need another 18 months ... again". |
chewy newton
Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities
0
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Posted - 2011.12.09 19:51:00 -
[95] - Quote
Please make fuel blocks work soon. Thanks, everyone running pos's. |
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CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 19:53:00 -
[96] - Quote
OK, so here's what happened.
We knew we needed at least two weeks between Crucible going live and us patching in the change, so people had time to sort out their logistics.
We can't safely do the switch between ~Decembec 17th and ~January 15th due to various key people leaving the country for Christmas, and the need for a clear run-up to the patch.
We had the patch on the 14th scheduled primarily to do this switchover, as it's effectively the last possible date before Christmas to safely do this (we don't patch later in the week because it means fallout drags into the weekend, and particularly in this case a lot of people are getting on aircraft that weekend).
Our original test plan would've seen us squared away weeks ago, but a series of various unforeseen events meant our critical "upgrade test" (requires a spare "full-sized" test server) got repeatedly bumped back in the schedule.
We finally ran the test earlier this week, and the thing we were most anticipating breaking, broke. The fix is relatively straightforward, but it requires us running another upgrade test to confirm that the fix works.
We weren't expecting the second test to be ready until today or Monday, and in the unlikely event that that didn't go smoothly it'd leave way too little time for you all to sort your towers out. Therefore we made the decision to push the deployment of the change back.
As above, once we miss the 14th we can't safely patch for at least a month. Given that we already had a small post-Crucible tidy-up patch scheduled for the 24th, we opted to bundle the fuel switch into that patch rather than running two "serious business" patches (ie, full client/server patch) less than a fortnight apart, because it's safer and causes less overhead.
It's not the way we wanted to do it, but it's the best option we have available to us right now. We're obviously very sorry for the trouble this is causing. |
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Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
234
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 19:54:00 -
[97] - Quote
To all the premature converters: right click, reprocess.
May involve docking in a station, so good luck to wormholers
EDIT: Why does greyscale always post while I'm typing? What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Ione Dee
Lucror Commerce Investment Corporation
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 19:54:00 -
[98] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote: Going to be abrupt. Hopefully the long leadtime will make it less painful.
Other than all the problems and inconvenience you are obviously causing by extending the date a month and a half.
CCP Soundwave wrote: The programmers responsible for the change have promised to not make any bugs, so we should be in the clear!
Then you should have no problem switching over now like you told everyone you would. |
fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2011.12.09 19:57:00 -
[99] - Quote
In an effort to create less trouble and save time for the morons that have ignored the coming fuel block changes . . . CCP has managed to screw the vast majority of people who did take the time to convert thier fuel stockpiles to blocks.
Thank you for the present CCP.
This should have been announced before the blueprints were released. |
Kylier
The Black Legionnares Fatal Ascension
0
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Posted - 2011.12.09 19:57:00 -
[100] - Quote
Alright.... my first response to this was to scream in frustration.... I have calmed down.
First off CCP, thank you for giving us a date we can hold you to. That is appreciated and everyone is welcome for that in some way shape or form. The rest of this is a bit of a rant... that said I do honestly appreciate the firm deadline.
Secondly, do you understand exactly what the effects of you jerking the market around like this are? (If so please reply)
If you don't I will try to explain. Lots of folks have stopped running PI, even if only briefly, because of the Custom Office changes.
At the same time you announced the fuel block change over with a short deadline. Those of us who are use to PoS Management are no stranger to working on short deadlines. So what do we do.... we get off our ass, buy however many BPOs we need and get them researched top priority. (This part doesn't much matter as we were going to do this anyway)
Next, we scrapped together an extra x amount of isk. Where x = about 210Million isk per tower we run. (this is for about 14 days of fuel at about 15 mill a day) in addition to our normal fuel costs. This essentially DOUBLED the demand for fuel at this point in time, which sent already high prices higher. None of us on the expense end are happy with it, but we only had 2 weeks so it had to be done. Besides in two weeks our lives will be much simpler when it comes to PoS fueling.
Now.... a week and a half into the two week period with everyone having made their fuel, paid exorbitant prices on a market that was in flux, Now you tell us oh we pushed back the switch over date till January?!
Lots of us were okay with the added expense of the fuel for a couple weeks as we would quickly recoup the loss by being able to use the old fuel in conversion rather quickly. Now you are asking us to sit on these blocks for an additional month and a half!?
That is 7.5Billion isk for my corp alone.
Congrats CCP you have dealt with the stupid inflation in the game for a short period of time, you have, at a guess removed at least a couple Trillion moveable isk from the market place.
And peeved a bunch of us while doing it. |
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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
704
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 20:03:00 -
[101] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:OK, so here's what happened. * snipped the explanation
Regardless of the complaints, it's appreciated that you're taking the time to do it right and have it ready. People would really be shitting their pants to log on Dec. 14th and find their force field down and someone like me looting the pos pinatas that were exposed. Yeah, it's an inconvenience for some, but better than the worst case scenario could have been by a longshot.
That being said... I don't want a switch. I want a friggin balloon. Yep, a big, red friggin balloon tied to a big gawdy glowing red string attached to the top of the POS, floating there inside the forcefield. But this isn't any balloon, this balloon is special. It's the only thing in the forcefield you can actually target. So basically, when you're ready to switch over to fuel niblets, you put some in the fuel hangar and shoot the balloon, releasing a shower of glowing, sparkly confetti signifying that the pos is now on the niblet system and will no longer accept the old PI chunks. Of course, the balloon would pop by itself at the deadline, so you still need to be ready to switch.
Yeah. I'd wait an extra month for that. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
101
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 20:04:00 -
[102] - Quote
Updates are updates. Anyone that is on sisi deals with them.
An additional hour of down time to save a weeks worth of fuel that would have messed up the markets even more is just fine with me. Everyone that will be ready for the change is already and pushing it off just means that some of those ready now will forget to do it when the actual change his in Jan.
If its ready to go on the 14th do it. WH pilots will thank you.
Thanks for the explanation but common this is EVE. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
234
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 20:06:00 -
[103] - Quote
fido gotran over wrote:In an effort to create less trouble and save time for the morons that have ignored the coming fuel block changes . . . CCP has managed to screw the vast majority of people who did take the time to convert thier fuel stockpiles to blocks. I don't get why you would convert this early. I've had the BPO ready, the stockpile ready, but have kept away from production precisely because the date was unknown. Building is actually quite fast, even without any PE research, so there was no need to hurry. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Marsha Mallow
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 20:08:00 -
[104] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:OK, so here's what happened.
.....
It's not the way we wanted to do it, but it's the best option we have available to us right now. We're obviously very sorry for the trouble this is causing.
Was ready to rant a bit (just put 2b worth of blocks into production) but meh.
We suspected this wouldn't be a smooth transition. I wasn't personally keen on seeing this rushed, or having to spend time fiddling about close to Christmas with towers.
Thank you for the candid explanantion and apology. Not much more can be done, so no point banging on about it. It's also appreciated that you took the time to explain.
Only suggestion I can make is, next time with any significant change like this, please allow sufficient time and don't rush just to attempt to please the rabble.
Fingers crossed for a smooth transition in January
|
Kylier
The Black Legionnares Fatal Ascension
0
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Posted - 2011.12.09 20:11:00 -
[105] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:OK, so here's what happened.
It's not the way we wanted to do it, but it's the best option we have available to us right now. We're obviously very sorry for the trouble this is causing.
Also you posted this while I was ranting.
Thanks for the explanation. Makes me feel somewhat better :D |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
473
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 20:14:00 -
[106] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:fido gotran over wrote:In an effort to create less trouble and save time for the morons that have ignored the coming fuel block changes . . . CCP has managed to screw the vast majority of people who did take the time to convert thier fuel stockpiles to blocks. I don't get why you would convert this early. I've had the BPO ready, the stockpile ready, but have kept away from production precisely because the date was unknown. Building is actually quite fast, even without any PE research, so there was no need to hurry.
Because some people have hundreds of POSes, some of them in far away locations that need blocks in them.
Greyscale, this is really screwing POS people over. You guys should have been more honest with the community earlier. I'm not sure what a workable solution for this is, but you guys should really consider using the extra time you now have to figure out a way to make up for all this hassle. Perhaps you might consider working on that fuel->block conversion script that you didn't have time to get done? CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog What does CSM 6 do? |
CynoNet Two
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
287
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 20:15:00 -
[107] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:It's not the way we wanted to do it, but it's the best option we have available to us right now. We're obviously very sorry for the trouble this is causing.
OK so you're sorry. Cool. However that apology without action still leaves us just as ****** over as before.
We told you two weeks ago to either a) automate the handover process to reduce player misery, and/or b) add an additional fuel bay for fuel blocks only, and/or c) delay it until a more suitable time rather than rush things and leave players stuck high and dry
You did none of these, and pushed ahead with your date that was optimistic at best (and pure fantasy at worst). Now the EVE community has to spend the holidays un-doing all their recent work, desparately scraping together ISK in an inflated market, rushing around moving supplies, repeat the whole process in 5 weeks time and generally spending more man-hours than you have spent developing this entire project.
So now the only remaining question is:
What is CCP going to - in the next week - to resolve this clusterfuck? |
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CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 20:16:00 -
[108] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Regardless of the complaints, it's appreciated that you're taking the time to do it right and have it ready. People would really be shitting their pants to log on Dec. 14th and find their force field down and someone like me looting the pos pinatas that were exposed. Yeah, it's an inconvenience for some, but better than the worst case scenario could have been by a longshot.
Pretty much this. If it was something where the failure case was less destructive, we'd have at least considered crossing our fingers and pushing the button anyway. Where the worst-case scenario is that every starbase in New Eden goes offline, though, we're erring on the side of extreme caution. We know this is horribly inconvenient, and it sucks, and it's wasting a lot of people's time and money, but it's better than the Great Starbase Pinata Bash 2011. Everyone here's a bit miffed that we've got to this point, but we console ourselves with the fact that this is a one-time burst of pain that's paving the way for a much smoother ride for large-scale tower operators everywhere.
(Yes, I know it makes your one wormhole tower marginally more difficult to run, and I'm personally very sorry about that, but I ran half a dozen towers for six months and splitting fuel into piles to go into my hauler made me want to lobotomize myself. We shouldn't have that sort of user pain in our game.) |
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MadMuppet
Jarts
4
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Posted - 2011.12.09 20:17:00 -
[109] - Quote
CCP - recommendation: Make fuel bricks reprocess to their component parts until the 24th to try and offset this mess.
-Mad
Never trust a soldier wearing velcroed insignia
While not perfect, I find the font at 13 pt and scaling at 90% to be pretty good, and overall better than the old font.-á |
Kaotixs
Angels and Demons Inc. Mordus Angels
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 20:20:00 -
[110] - Quote
WTF can yall make up your mind. i have already converted all my POS fuel stocks to blocks based on your original date and loaded all my poses with fuel blocks. now i have to go by more of the old fuels and run to all my poses again to take out the blocks and add old fuel. please go back to the old date |
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Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
88
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 20:23:00 -
[111] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Where the worst-case scenario is that every starbase in New Eden goes offline, though, we're erring on the side of extreme caution.
But that would be... hilarious!
Quote: ...but it's better than the Great Starbase Pinata Bash 2011.
I'm not entirely convinced about this. Purely based on the comedy value!
...okay, seriously, it was always clear that serious advance warning for the drop dead date was absolutely required and as the announcement was not out when block BPOs were seeded, I kinda assumed this would happen ("no block usage until after the holidays"). You could've communicated it all earlier tho... |
spookydonut
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
61
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 20:23:00 -
[112] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Regardless of the complaints, it's appreciated that you're taking the time to do it right and have it ready. People would really be shitting their pants to log on Dec. 14th and find their force field down and someone like me looting the pos pinatas that were exposed. Yeah, it's an inconvenience for some, but better than the worst case scenario could have been by a longshot. Pretty much this. If it was something where the failure case was less destructive, we'd have at least considered crossing our fingers and pushing the button anyway. Where the worst-case scenario is that every starbase in New Eden goes offline, though, we're erring on the side of extreme caution. We know this is horribly inconvenient, and it sucks, and it's wasting a lot of people's time and money, but it's better than the Great Starbase Pinata Bash 2011. Everyone here's a bit miffed that we've got to this point, but we console ourselves with the fact that this is a one-time burst of pain that's paving the way for a much smoother ride for large-scale tower operators everywhere. (Yes, I know it makes your one wormhole tower marginally more difficult to run, and I'm personally very sorry about that, but I ran half a dozen towers for six months and splitting fuel into piles to go into my hauler made me want to lobotomize myself. We shouldn't have that sort of user pain in our game.)
Goonswarm federation has 180 towers across 5+ regions. Turbonigger. |
Kaotixs
Angels and Demons Inc. Mordus Angels
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 20:24:00 -
[113] - Quote
Two step wrote:Jack Dant wrote:fido gotran over wrote:In an effort to create less trouble and save time for the morons that have ignored the coming fuel block changes . . . CCP has managed to screw the vast majority of people who did take the time to convert thier fuel stockpiles to blocks. I don't get why you would convert this early. I've had the BPO ready, the stockpile ready, but have kept away from production precisely because the date was unknown. Building is actually quite fast, even without any PE research, so there was no need to hurry. Because some people have hundreds of POSes, some of them in far away locations that need blocks in them. Greyscale, this is really screwing POS people over. You guys should have been more honest with the community earlier. I'm not sure what a workable solution for this is, but you guys should really consider using the extra time you now have to figure out a way to make up for all this hassle. Perhaps you might consider working on that fuel->block conversion script that you didn't have time to get done?
agree we are getting screwed now. isk and time wise. at least make the towers burn both fuels for now for those of us that did pay attention and converted all our old fuel stocks |
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CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 20:25:00 -
[114] - Quote
Two step wrote:Greyscale, this is really screwing POS people over. You guys should have been more honest with the community earlier. I'm not sure what a workable solution for this is, but you guys should really consider using the extra time you now have to figure out a way to make up for all this hassle. Perhaps you might consider working on that fuel->block conversion script that you didn't have time to get done?
We don't have a workable solution right now that answers all the issues, that's pretty much the problem. Sometimes that's a thing that happens, unfortunately.
The reason we've not said anything earlier is that our schedule kept slipping a day or two at a time, and it's really hard to know where to draw a firm line. We hit the point this week where the failed test meant another three or four days, and combined with the closeness to the deadline we had to make the decision to push it back. If the server had been available a couple of days earlier and the test had past we could ship on the 14th as we originally planned. We had to announce some sort of timeline when the blog went live, and as soon as we've even hand-waved a date, slipping that date is a pain for everyone. If we'd pushed back the date on Monday morning and then passed the test Monday afternoon, for example, that'd have been a whole load of avoidable user pain that we'd inflicted.
As to the conversion script thing, the reason we've worked so hard to avoid that is because it usually involves multiple upgrade tests to catch all the corner cases (there were ~700 Oneiros with five midslot mods fitted the day after Crucible because of a corner-case issue), and you're seeing right now why we try to avoid upgrade tests. If it went right it'd make the experience a little smoother, sure, but it also adds another huge pile of risk to the deployment. Right now we don't need any more risk, and you don't need us to tell you mid-January that we're slipping the handover another month. |
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CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 20:27:00 -
[115] - Quote
MadMuppet wrote:CCP - recommendation: Make fuel bricks reprocess to their component parts until the 24th to try and offset this mess.
-Mad
Fuel blocks should already reprocess to their component parts, although only in multiples of 40. |
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Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
475
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 20:28:00 -
[116] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Regardless of the complaints, it's appreciated that you're taking the time to do it right and have it ready. People would really be shitting their pants to log on Dec. 14th and find their force field down and someone like me looting the pos pinatas that were exposed. Yeah, it's an inconvenience for some, but better than the worst case scenario could have been by a longshot. Pretty much this. If it was something where the failure case was less destructive, we'd have at least considered crossing our fingers and pushing the button anyway. Where the worst-case scenario is that every starbase in New Eden goes offline, though, we're erring on the side of extreme caution. We know this is horribly inconvenient, and it sucks, and it's wasting a lot of people's time and money, but it's better than the Great Starbase Pinata Bash 2011. Everyone here's a bit miffed that we've got to this point, but we console ourselves with the fact that this is a one-time burst of pain that's paving the way for a much smoother ride for large-scale tower operators everywhere. (Yes, I know it makes your one wormhole tower marginally more difficult to run, and I'm personally very sorry about that, but I ran half a dozen towers for six months and splitting fuel into piles to go into my hauler made me want to lobotomize myself. We shouldn't have that sort of user pain in our game.)
I actually disagree with this. Assuming your testing fails, the worst case scenario is exactly what you guys are now proposing, delaying the rollout until later. You *could* have annouced the fuel switch would *probably* happen next week, and if it didn't, it would happen Jan 24th. CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog What does CSM 6 do? |
spookydonut
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
61
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 20:28:00 -
[117] - Quote
Really sounds like you need more/better QA.
Maybe reassign some of the Dust people. |
Bring Stabity
Magellanic Itg Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 20:29:00 -
[118] - Quote
Yo how about you create another fuel bay that burns Blocks and let people use either or
bam hire me |
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CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 20:33:00 -
[119] - Quote
Two step wrote:I actually disagree with this. Assuming your testing fails, the worst case scenario is exactly what you guys are now proposing, delaying the rollout until later. You *could* have annouced the fuel switch would *probably* happen next week, and if it didn't, it would happen Jan 24th.
I guess this is just a communication breakdown then. We said "a couple of weeks later" in the blog with the intention of giving a firm date later, and I think there was an assumption on our end that, until we actually announced a date, it was always "probably" rather than "definitely" happening before Christmas. Again, sorry about that - we'll try and be more clear about what is and isn't a definite date in future. |
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spookydonut
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
61
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 20:35:00 -
[120] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Two step wrote:I actually disagree with this. Assuming your testing fails, the worst case scenario is exactly what you guys are now proposing, delaying the rollout until later. You *could* have annouced the fuel switch would *probably* happen next week, and if it didn't, it would happen Jan 24th. I guess this is just a communication breakdown then. We said "a couple of weeks later" in the blog with the intention of giving a firm date later, and I think there was an assumption on our end that, until we actually announced a date, it was always "probably" rather than "definitely" happening before Christmas. Again, sorry about that - we'll try and be more clear about what is and isn't a definite date in future.
Saying sorry is fine, we understand you're sorry.
You still haven't said what you're going to do to fix the clusterfuck you've created. |
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