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Anyone had success scanning mission runners?

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Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.14 17:20:00 - [1] Alrighty, Since the Wednesday patch, I have not been able to successfully probe out any missions runners, and I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this problem. I realize it was supposed to be made more difficult, but it's more like impossible as far as I can tell. Anyone had any luck? -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.14 17:31:00 - [2] Aparently the strength of sigs inside deadspace complexes got reduced to 1/100th. There are reports that drones are still easy to find, though, you might try to scan for those instead of ships. Also, if you can get within 4 AU of them you might want to try it with the right racial quest exploration probe since they are 12.5 times as strong as the snoob one.
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:14:00 - [3] So the carebears won, and they're once again invulnerable while running missions? W T F I thought CCP intended this to be a PvP game. I can't believe they caved so completely to the mission runners--I could see it being made more difficult, but not this level of difficulty. I just can't believe this. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
JForce N.W.A	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:21:00 - [4] Come on, be fair. It shouldn't necessarily be possible for you to ruin the game they want to play at EVERY opportunity except hi-sec. Inside the complex is fair enough, they can do their thing. It's not like it's impossible for you to get them. Bubble on the gate? Pirates are still ganking all over. Just because scanning in a mission isn't an "I-Win" anymore
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:34:00 - [5] Edited by: Wrayeth on 14/12/2006 21:34:18 Originally by: JForce Come on, be fair. It shouldn't necessarily be possible for you to ruin the game they want to play at EVERY opportunity except hi-sec. Inside the complex is fair enough, they can do their thing. It's not like it's impossible for you to get them. Bubble on the gate? Pirates are still ganking all over. Just because scanning in a mission isn't an "I-Win" anymore You can't bubble people in lowsec or highsec. Right now, my alliance primarily concerns itself with Empire wars. As such, our targets generally mission-***** to make ISK. It's impossible to disrupt a mission runner if he has insta-undock bookmarks, now, since he undocks and warps off before you can lock him down, then goes directly to the mission where you cannot probe him. Then, after finishing, he returns to station with warp to zero. The sum effect is that he is completely invulnerable and can ignore the wardec entirely. In order to wage war effectively, you must strike at your opponent's lines of supply as well as his military forces. Without the ability to do the former, your chance of succeeding drops significantly. With mission-runners being completely invulnerable, this is a line of supply that cannot be cut no matter how much effort is poured into it. You could camp the station with 250 ships (assuming you have that many) and it still will not matter; bubbles do not work in Empire, so the opponent can get away with little effort. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Weirda Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:39:00 - [6] another case of 'real problem' causing people to demand immediate solution... and solution not entirely in context of all the other change (as Wrayeth mention). unfortunately rather then 'nerf/modify' what aggressor could do when he got there (right solution in context), they just made it so he couldn't get there (by throwing in one simple modifier). too bad. __ Weirda Join QotSA
Murehz	Posted - 2006.12.14 22:03:00 - [7] Originally by: Wrayeth Edited by: Wrayeth on 14/12/2006 21:34:18 Originally by: JForce Come on, be fair. It shouldn't necessarily be possible for you to ruin the game they want to play at EVERY opportunity except hi-sec. Inside the complex is fair enough, they can do their thing. It's not like it's impossible for you to get them. Bubble on the gate? Pirates are still ganking all over. Just because scanning in a mission isn't an "I-Win" anymore You can't bubble people in lowsec or highsec. Right now, my alliance primarily concerns itself with Empire wars. As such, our targets generally mission-***** to make ISK. It's impossible to disrupt a mission runner if he has insta-undock bookmarks, now, since he undocks and warps off before you can lock him down, then goes directly to the mission where you cannot probe him. Then, after finishing, he returns to station with warp to zero. The sum effect is that he is completely invulnerable and can ignore the wardec entirely. In order to wage war effectively, you must strike at your opponent's lines of supply as well as his military forces. Without the ability to do the former, your chance of succeeding drops significantly. With mission-runners being completely invulnerable, this is a line of supply that cannot be cut no matter how much effort is poured into it. You could camp the station with 250 ships (assuming you have that many) and it still will not matter; bubbles do not work in Empire, so the opponent can get away with little effort. Why not just stick cans outside the station so they get stuck when they undock and try to warp off.
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.14 22:12:00 - [8] Originally by: Murehz Why not just stick cans outside the station so they get stuck when they undock and try to warp off. Well, aside from the fact that the GMs tend to get annoyed when you block station exits with cans, the main problem is that a ship just passes through other ships and objects when it first undocks and until either a.) the undocking timer expires, or b.) the pilot activates a module, tries to warp, etc. This means that, as long as the first and only thing he does upon undocking is select "warp to-" on his instaundock bookmark while still moving fast enough on his undock push-out, he'll never have a chance to bump anything since he can't be bumped when on the undocking timer and again can't be bumped while actually in warp (and he will hit warp instantly). -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Foulis Minmatar Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.14 22:13:00 - [9] Originally by: Murehz Originally by: Wrayeth Edited by: Wrayeth on 14/12/2006 21:34:18 Originally by: JForce Come on, be fair. It shouldn't necessarily be possible for you to ruin the game they want to play at EVERY opportunity except hi-sec. Inside the complex is fair enough, they can do their thing. It's not like it's impossible for you to get them. Bubble on the gate? Pirates are still ganking all over. Just because scanning in a mission isn't an "I-Win" anymore You can't bubble people in lowsec or highsec. Right now, my alliance primarily concerns itself with Empire wars. As such, our targets generally mission-*** to make ISK. It's impossible to disrupt a mission runner if he has insta-undock bookmarks, now, since he undocks and warps off before you can lock him down, then goes directly to the mission where you cannot probe him. Then, after finishing, he returns to station with warp to zero. The sum effect is that he is completely invulnerable and can ignore the wardec entirely. In order to wage war effectively, you must strike at your opponent's lines of supply as well as his military forces. Without the ability to do the former, your chance of succeeding drops significantly. With mission-runners being completely invulnerable, this is a line of supply that cannot be cut no matter how much effort is poured into it. You could camp the station with 250 ships (assuming you have that many) and it still will not matter; bubbles do not work in Empire, so the opponent can get away with little effort. Why not just stick cans outside the station so they get stuck when they undock and try to warp off. Last I checked you can get petitioned if you place enough cans specifically to do things like that (we have trouble with cloakers). ---- Originally by:** Nikolai Nuvolari NO WORDS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARE SPELLED WITH THE NUMBER "8" IN THEM GODDAMNIT!
Murehz	Posted - 2006.12.14 22:16:00 - [10] Originally by: Wrayeth Originally by: Murehz Why not just stick cans outside the station so they get stuck when they undock and try to warp off. Well, aside from the fact that the GMs tend to get annoyed when you block station exits with cans, the main problem is that a ship just passes through other ships and objects when it first undocks and until either a.) the undocking timer expires, or b.) the pilot activates a module, tries to warp, etc. This means that, as long as the first and only thing he does upon undocking is select "warp to-" on his instaundock bookmark while still moving fast enough on his undock push-out, he'll never have a chance to bump anything since he can't be bumped when on the undocking timer and again can't be bumped while actually in warp (and he will hit warp instantly). I don't know much about this but surely to instantly warp it would have to be pretty much straight ahead. Couldn't you set up ppl ready to scan for where the point he warps to is and then sit there when he next tries it?
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.14 22:27:00 - [11] Originally by: Murehz I don't know much about this but surely to instantly warp it would have to be pretty much straight ahead. Couldn't you set up ppl ready to scan for where the point he warps to is and then sit there when he next tries it? You can, but the problem is this: he won't stay there long enough for the probe to finish scanning. He'll arrive at the insta-undock point, then warp to the mission immediately thereafter. Thus, as long as his mission's in the same system, you can't touch him. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.14 22:53:00 - [12] then you have to work for it, if he's alwasy there then time how long the avg mission is, say 30min. then find out what ship he uses possibly with the normal scaner, then use the basic scan method to find what he is near then use a probe to lock onto him.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.12.14 23:08:00 - [13] Originally by: Wrayeth So the carebears won, and they're once again invulnerable while running missions? W T F My understanding is that it's gotten a lot harder but not impossible. Now it depends on having good skills and using multiple probes...whereas before I was able to bust missions with L1 skills and 1 probe. :P I haven't gotten a chance to try it myself since the patch though, so I'm not sure whether it's harder than I'd like, still too easy, or just about right. My guess is that long L4s are still going to be quite bustable, but we'll see. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Cythrawl Caldari Central Defiance Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.14 23:20:00 - [14] Originally by: Wrayeth You can't bubble people in lowsec or highsec. Right now, my alliance primarily concerns itself with Empire wars. As such, our targets generally mission-(Edit) to make ISK. It's impossible to disrupt a mission runner if he has insta-undock bookmarks, now, since he undocks and warps off before you can lock him down, then goes directly to the mission where you cannot probe him. Then, after finishing, he returns to station with warp to zero. The sum effect is that he is completely invulnerable and can ignore the wardec entirely. They make interceptors for a reason. If a primary tackle inty can't hold a mission runner from warping off after undocking in anything bigger than a cruiser, they need to be shot. Sensor booster and 20k scramb should do the trick. Just means you have to field more people than a single ganker... Even if all you managed to do was keep them in the station, that means they can't run the missions. And anyone attaching warp core stabs to a mission ship now is shooting themselves in the foot anyway. =+=+=+=+=+=+= Time to go with a more... Honest, sig.
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.15 00:07:00 - [15] Originally by: "Tsanse Kinske" My understanding is that it's gotten a lot harder but not impossible. Now it depends on having good skills and using multiple probes... You cannot place multiple probes around an off-plane mission spot. There's nothing to warp to to make the necessary scanspot. Originally by: "Cythrawl" They make interceptors for a reason. If a primary tackle inty can't hold a mission runner from warping off after undocking Even if it was possible, which it isn't since instaundocks mean the ship is never lockable, the mission runner would simply redock. _____________________________________________
Cythrawl Caldari Central Defiance Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.15 00:18:00 - [16] Originally by: SN3263827 Originally by: "Cythrawl" They make interceptors for a reason. If a primary tackle inty can't hold a mission runner from warping off after undocking Even if it was possible, which it isn't since instaundocks mean the ship is never lockable, the mission runner would simply redock. You missed the whole point. You stop them from leaving. People who don't undock don't run missions and they don't make money. Insta-docks are actually lies as well. I've ended up 2.5k from a station more than once with the 'warp to 0' its possible to get them, you've just gotta get lucky and be quick about it. A Huginn who catches a ship warping in 2.5k away from the station can turn it into a ship that moves at 10m/s. You've got 250 seconds to make it to dock. Have fun. In fact, a Huginn and a Lachesis together can pretty much mean the end of anyone undocking alone. Most of the time you get kicked out away from the station if you don't dock back up as fast as possible. Certain stations are different but you can be caught just as quick as escape sometimes. =+=+=+=+=+=+= Time to go with a more... Honest, sig.
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.15 00:29:00 - [17] You missed the part where it is impossible to lock a ship using an instaundock. And you never land 2500m from dock. You might land 2500m from the station but that isn't the same thing. Anyway, requiring anyone wishing to kill a mission runner to fly a specific ship (and not just a specific class) is a bit much don't you think? _____________________________________________
Vasiliyan PAX Interstellar Services Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.15 00:31:00 - [18] Making it 100 times harder? Erm, ok, that's a proportionate change, really ... Is it still easier than pre-Kali?
Blind Picard	Posted - 2006.12.15 00:31:00 - [19] It seems that is impossible to find a mission runner with the new patch. I can agree with that for the high sec systems, but for the 0.0 mission runners is totaly unfair. WHAT IS THE POINT OF A LOW SEC SYSTEM ?!?! Come on people, wake up!! In this case 0.0 mission runners are more safe than Jita or any 1.0 systems. I know CCP stated they were going to make it harder, but it feels virtually impossible at the moment. They should make mission scanning difficulty proportional to system sec status. 1.0->0.0, Hard->easy. ----------
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.12.15 00:32:00 - [20] Originally by: SN3263827 Originally by: "Tsanse Kinske" My understanding is that it's gotten a lot harder but not impossible. Now it depends on having good skills and using multiple probes... You cannot place multiple probes around an off-plane mission spot. There's nothing to warp to to make the necessary scanspot. I was referring to multiple probe types, not overlapping. Though when the deadspace isn't off-plane, that's probably another strategy to get around this nerf. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.15 00:38:00 - [21] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske I was referring to multiple probe types, not overlapping. Multiple probe types can only help to reduce deviation. Currently you don't get any results at all for ships in Deadspace. No type of probe save an exploration probe (max range 4au) changes that. Scanning is near enough impossible that the difference is negligible. _____________________________________________
DuPuy	Posted - 2006.12.15 00:48:00 - [22] Edited by: DuPuy on 15/12/2006 00:50:19 Edited by: DuPuy on 15/12/2006 00:49:24 Dunno what everyone's panicking about... Undocked this morning, dropped a couple of fathoms... Found a Hurricane and a Tempest missioning in 40seconds. Admittedly, there were probably about 10 others in system missioning at the same time and pre-patch I would have got a lock on just about all of them... (but I'm not greedy ;-) but missioners need some protection (not immunity).... Missioning is a vital step in the path for new characters to become confident/competent enough to attempt pvp. If existing pvp'ers kill them all off and discourage missioning, then there is no "next generation" of pvpers... or probably even eve players...
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.15 00:51:00 - [23] Well, I don't know what you did differently because I (and my corp) spent in excess of 6 hours scanning and got one result. Were they deadspace missions (through a gate) or open space misions? _____________________________________________
DuPuy	Posted - 2006.12.15 01:06:00 - [24] In both instances I warped to a gate. Perhaps a better understanding of how probes work needs to be employed... Or perhaps it's just another implementation of the new "luck" approach to eve mechanics.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.12.15 01:52:00 - [25] Originally by: SN3263827 Originally by: Tsanse Kinske I was referring to multiple probe types, not overlapping. Multiple probe types can only help to reduce deviation. Currently you don't get any results at all for ships in Deadspace. No type of probe save an exploration probe (max range 4au) changes that. Scanning is near enough impossible that the difference is negligible. I'm hearing enough reports of people still busting deadspaces that I think we'll end up differing there. Again, I can't comment yet on whether it's too hard or not, only that saying it's near-impossible seems premature. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.12.15 01:56:00 - [26] Originally by: DuPuy Edited by: DuPuy on 15/12/2006 00:50:19 Edited by: DuPuy on 15/12/2006 00:49:24 Dunno what everyone's panicking about... Undocked this morning, dropped a couple of fathoms... Found a Hurricane and a Tempest missioning in 40seconds. That sounds the same as it was. Did you find them by scanning their drones? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Nah'kesh	Posted - 2006.12.15 03:09:00 - [27] Edited by: Nah''kesh on 15/12/2006 03:09:24 I tried the find drones option... and there were lots on scanner, though not many had "strong" fixes... So I guess that is an easy option to find gallente missioners... The main outcome of the changes is to make probing MUCH more expensive, I think...
DuPuy	Posted - 2006.12.15 03:15:00 - [28] The two I found was by using the "ships" option... but, as indicated, It may have been a low success rate given the number of missioners in the system. And perhaps those ships had lots of shield extenders and warp stabs fitted... there are lots of influences on probing in the game now...
Sinnbad Mayhem Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2006.12.15 03:33:00 - [29] You guys dont get it do you? Think about what your doing for a second. Trying to find people running missions in low sec. BIG YAWN. Go fight in 0.0 and stop acting like children. You know that low sec is dead. You know that your playing the odds game. Looking for easy targets. You know that if they realize you can get them they will go back to High sec. Is that what you want? Leave the damn mission runners alone and go pick a fight with people who want to fight. I would have given my Right Arm for you Wrayeth to come through the gates I was camping in 0.0 Your loot would have been very nice. Pretty pathetic dood. Grow a pair. And go fight ASCN or BOB or somebody. or quit EVE and STFU
Sinnbad Mayhem Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2006.12.15 03:39:00 - [30] And one last thing. Dont give me the "we are at war and need to kill the mission runner crap" Why dont you use your brain and let them run missions and then catch them transporting it? And even better, if their wallets are fat, they can afford juicy fittings. Get it now? Let them get fat and then kill them when they arent looking. Plenty of chances for that in EVE. Just use that grey matter for something and stop the whining. Its getting really pathetic.

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