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Wrayeth
Tabula Rasa Systems
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.12.15 03:41:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 15/12/2006 03:50:01
 Originally by: Sinnbad Mayhem
You guys dont get it do you?
Think about what your doing for a second. Trying to find people running missions in low sec.
BIG YAWN.
Ever heard of Empire wars?
Quote:
Go fight in 0.0 and stop acting like children.
Sorry, no. I got tired of blob warfare after 2 years in 0.0. Solo and small gang combat is much more fun. I go out into 0.0 now and again, but it's no longer my main focus.
Quote:
You know that low sec is dead. You know that your playing the odds game. Looking for easy targets. You know that if they realize you can get them they will go back to High sec.
Is that what you want?
I don't care if my upcoming war targets are in low or high security, just that I can probe them down while they're in a mission with sufficient and reasonable effort.
Quote:
Leave the damn mission runners alone and go pick a fight with people who want to fight. I would have given my Right Arm for you Wrayeth to come through the gates I was camping in 0.0  Your loot would have been very nice.
While my loot is, generally, nice, I don't know why you'd think I'd want to get stupidly ganked. A 20-v-1 is hardly anything for you to crow about, anyway.
Quote:
Pretty pathetic dood. Grow a pair. And go fight ASCN or BOB or somebody. or quit EVE and STFU 
Been there, done that, BoB pilots drop good loot. I joined a corp involved in Empire wars because it's more fun than 0.0 these days. Blob warfare = suck. POS warfare = suck.
-Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Might
As well
Train
Another
Race |
Sinnbad Mayhem
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2006.12.15 03:52:00 -
[32]
And coming to the forums asking how to kill mission runners is helping your cause, how exactly?
Low sec is dead. Find a way to populate it and then enjoy the loot. The days of easy ganks in low sec are numbered.
Not because CCF has nerfed them but because Agent runners are not idiots. The risk has outweighed the rewards.
These posts are like fishing with a jackhammer.
Get it now? |
Wrayeth
Tabula Rasa Systems
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.12.15 04:07:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 15/12/2006 04:08:21
Originally by: Sinnbad Mayhem
And coming to the forums asking how to kill mission runners is helping your cause, how exactly?
I'm asking if others are having the same trouble since the patch. It was supposed to be harder, which is fine, but not the next best thing to impossible.
Secondly, when conducting a war against an Empire-dwelling alliance, killing the enemy's mission runners helps to cut his lines of supply. This can be likened to ganking enemy NPCers and miners in belts is in 0.0.
Quote:
Low sec is dead. Find a way to populate it and then enjoy the loot. The days of easy ganks in low sec are numbered.
Reading Comprehension 101 is your friend. You might want to try it some time.
Just to clarify for you, since you don't seem to understand, I'm primarily interested in the ability to kill mission runners in highsec/lowsec/wherever as part of an Empire war. Just because someone is running a mission does not mean they should be invulnerable.
Quote:
Not because CCF has nerfed them but because Agent runners are not idiots. The risk has outweighed the rewards.
These posts are like fishing with a jackhammer.
Get it now?
It's YOU who don't get it - I'm not talking about ganking random people in lowsec, like you seem to think because you can't be bothered to read my posts. Yes, it'd be helpful to be able to kill hostiles there, but I'm primarily interested in killing war targets in our future wars. Right now, it's possible to do missions with impunity in both highsec and lowsec, despite the wardec.
Now, if you object to people being able to be killed during a CONCORD-sanctioned Empire war, then that would tell me that you're a ganker - you're fine with killing other people, but never want them to be able to kill you in turn.
I accept that my ability to run my own missions will be hindered by the ability of our enemies to probe out mission runners, but, frankly, I don't care as long as I can do the same to them.
EDIT: Oh, btw, it's "CCP", not "CCF".
-Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Might
As well
Train
Another
Race |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2006.12.15 04:29:00 -
[34]
Sinnbad, you seem to be trolling the wrong forum. I believe you're looking for Crime and Punishment, Missions, or maybe General. I'm sure they'd welcome a discussion of the ethics of busting up missions, because it just hasn't been talked about much lately. Good luck! 
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
DuPuy
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Posted - 2006.12.15 04:50:00 -
[35]
The fact is, it's not impossible to find missioners.
Nowhere near it.
It's just not as easy as it was yesterday.
yes, you do need to do more than drop one probe then work your way up the list...
But not significantly more.
Whatever your view, you have to agree it is still far easier to find missioners NOW than it was BEFORE Revelations.
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Sinnbad Mayhem
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2006.12.15 05:03:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Sinnbad, you seem to be trolling the wrong forum. I believe you're looking for Crime and Punishment, Missions, or maybe General. I'm sure they'd welcome a discussion of the ethics of busting up missions, because it just hasn't been talked about much lately. Good luck!
A self admitted pirate posting about finding mission runners posted under Ships and Mods section, and I am trolling?
Maybe or maybe I just wanted to stir the pot in here. Bored atm lol
And, YES, YES, YES, you scan for misson runners, get a clue you noobs |
Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.12.15 06:46:00 -
[37]
You shouldn't be able to completely eliminate your war target. This is not viable for ccp as they don't want their subscribers to quit due to loss in war. There should always be a way to rebuild war losses. This is IMHO why mission runners made unreachable... Get over it, if you want to be able to truely destroy your enemy, go to real life war or something, you can kill ppl persistantly there. EVE however is only a game.
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Shayla Sh'inlux
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.12.15 07:09:00 -
[38]
Yay WoW in space coming to an Eve cluster near you!
That'd be thing #3 in Revelations that is gonna be the downfall of the game.
Originally by: "Cy4n1d3"
You can't PVP with 4 mids.
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.12.15 07:22:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 15/12/2006 07:22:59
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Yay WoW in space coming to an Eve cluster near you!
That'd be thing #3 in Revelations that is gonna be the downfall of the game.
was EVE a WOW-in-space pre-Revelations? I guess not because otherwise you probably wouldn't play it.
However pre-revelations things were pretty much the same as now (even worse for pirates in fact, as you needed brain to scan, not just clicking "analyze" again and again for an hour).
so why would this make EVE a WOW-in-space if it didn't pre-rev?
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Shayla Sh'inlux
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.12.15 09:36:00 -
[40]
Pre-Kali probing people took some time, some skill and there was a big difference between good probers and someone who happened to have trained the skills.
It was perfectly possible to scan out missionrunners relatively quick by using pre-made scanspots and good direction scanning skills.
Now scanning stuff in deadspace is all but impossible thereby offically introducing instancing into Eve killing the concept of the game at the its very heart. That is what makes this WoW in space.
Originally by: "Cy4n1d3"
You can't PVP with 4 mids.
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Hoshi
DAB
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.15 09:49:00 -
[41]
The door is that way Sinnbad, make sure it doesn't hit you on the way out.
----------------------------------------
A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.12.15 10:11:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Pre-Kali probing people took some time, some skill and there was a big difference between good probers and someone who happened to have trained the skills.
It was perfectly possible to scan out missionrunners relatively quick by using pre-made scanspots and good direction scanning skills.
Now scanning stuff in deadspace is all but impossible thereby offically introducing instancing into Eve killing the concept of the game at the its very heart. That is what makes this WoW in space.
you still can use directional scanner to find them, and when you get within 4au you can use exploration probes which have hundreds in scan strength.
or if you lack brains to do so just spam observator and eventually you will find them. Missions take lots of time now with 100 km distance between warp in and next gate.
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Shayla Sh'inlux
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.12.15 10:40:00 -
[43]
Actually, that would only work if missions were in the plane, which they are not. Now, if there's a way to make observer probes give you results within 4au of the mission runner on the same plane, I'll be glad to hear it.
I can get within a few AU of the target fairly easy. In fact, I do that with my main in a cruiser or BS since CovOps warp just too frigging fast to get it done properly (with the lag and all). My alt (or someone else's) can then start the scanning. The 4au probes give zero results even though the target is within 1,5 au. Zero results meaning no results on dozens of scans.
Unless we're missing an entire game mechanic (which I doubt since we have one guy reporting he can find stuff on this whole forum and about 50 that say they can't) missions are for all intents and purposes instances now.
Originally by: "Cy4n1d3"
You can't PVP with 4 mids.
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EPSILON DELTA
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Posted - 2006.12.15 10:51:00 -
[44]
1- Right now you can easily find any mission runners if they are using drones.
2- By the looks of equaling this to instancing, I'm sure the devs would fix that while they are fixing drone scans
so by the time you can't find people through drones, you could proberbly find the target directly.
Having said that, I believe pre-Rev scanning for deadspace was much better, its not impossible, it just require skill that most whining pirates don't have, and its that lack of scanning skill that prevents mission runners from being ganked every 5 min.
Those people then found a brainless way to find their target, and when CCP took it away they starts to whine as though the system was somehow balanced when they were getting the benefits.
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.12.15 11:15:00 -
[45]
Well seeing how one of my fellow runners was ganked yesterday in his mission, is IS still possible. Just a whole lot harder, which is fine.
The OPs problem could be solved by trying to fight people who WANT to fight rather than forcing their PvP on PvEers. If you wanna do that and find it hard, good. No sympathy from me.
---------
ZOMG my sig was concordokkened!
Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Hoshi
DAB
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.15 11:24:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Well seeing how one of my fellow runners was ganked yesterday in his mission, is IS still possible. Just a whole lot harder, which is fine.
The OPs problem could be solved by trying to fight people who WANT to fight rather than forcing their PvP on PvEers. If you wanna do that and find it hard, good. No sympathy from me.
Lets look at it from your perspective then because this is not just about mission runners it's about the option to create an effectively unprobeable safe.
You are having a mining op in lowsec, a pirate decides to crash the party and kill some barges for you. So you get a vigilanty squad together to get revenge. But you can get him because he is using your beloved mission protection against you by hiding in a level 1 mission which are readily available every where in empire.
----------------------------------------
A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Sinnbad Mayhem
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2006.12.15 12:00:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Hoshi
The door is that way Sinnbad, make sure it doesn't hit you on the way out.
I aint going anywhere, so yu can kiss my ugly butfortress. honestly, bullying me is useless. but give it your best shot
but yeah back to the argument or whine or whatever, to the OP, no safe should be 100% safe. but i guess CCP wants to give ppl the chance to still make isk. but missions can still be probed just not as easy as b4.
And to Hoshi, this aint WOW in space. Big deal some guy hides in a mission. YAWN. If your not bright enough to figure out how to kill him then go play WOW you noob.
you guys want everything handed to you and when you dont you come to the forums like babies and then tell everyone to go play WOW.  |
Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.12.15 12:01:00 -
[48]
Remove low end agents from lowsec? 
Not like there are any in my vicinity atm, so they are not really readily available. Plus I couldn't care less if a mining op gets busted, they deserve that if they didn't run at the first sign of hostiles in local. Miners CAN do that without much penalty, mission runners can't.
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ZOMG my sig was concordokkened!
Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Hephaesteus
Gallente
PILGRIMS
Insane Asylum
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Posted - 2006.12.15 12:07:00 -
[49]
If you want a war decced target bad enough sooner or later you will get him. The question for you is how bad do you want to get him. If you are looking for a quick gank it is probably not worth the effort, but if you want bragging rights it's always worth the wait.
-----------------------------------------------
Knowing all, when all is unknown.
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Damien Smith
ExScape
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Posted - 2006.12.15 12:41:00 -
[50]
You know what I find really interesting about this whole debate?
Pre-Kali I never heard a single bad word said about the scan probing system aside from the probe scan area being a disc rather than a sphere. It was balanced, fun to learn and challenging to master.
Then post-Kali it was made so ridiculously easy a trained monkey could do it. Everyone whined about it, from the most harmless mission running carebear to the most battle hardened pirate there is.
It was then made impossible to do unless you use the pseudo-sploit of scanning for their drones. This is an 'I-lose' button for Gallente pilots and will no doubt get fixed. The only option then is spamming exploration probes (do they even work to find mission deadspaces?) and hoping for a lucky hit. Not to mention that they don't even fit in a recon launcher so good luck getting a result this side of this century.
The point I'm trying to make is this:
Pre-Kali - Probing is perfectly balanced because very few pilots could be called 'expert' probers, and this keeps the carebears relatively safe, while still rewarding those who put in the time to learn. The system isn't tipped in favour of anyone except those who are truly '1337'.
Whinage: None from both pirates and 'bears because it was a well balanced system.
Post-Kali - A lobotomised monkey on tranquillisers could probe the average mission. The balance has been tipped extremely heavily in favour of the pirates.
Whinage: Pirates hate it because it takes no skill and is therefore a pointless exercise. It becomes a purely isk making exercise like gatecamps are because there's no challenge. Mission runners hate it because they get farmed like the NPCs they love to kill. The forums are in uproar.
Post-Recent Kali patch - Probing is impossible unless you use the pseudo-exploit of probing the targets drones, or using exploration probes that may or may not work (someone who's tried this help me out here) and don't fit into the dedicated ship scanner launcher, the Recon Probe Launcher I. The balance has been tipped extremely heavily in favour of the 'bears.
Whinage: Pirates have been effectively stripped of their ability to probe any missioners that aren't Gallente and are whining accordingly. Mission runners are keeping uncharactaristically silent except where doing forum battle vs the pirates to defend their newfound invincibility. The 'bears have been given a true 'I-win' button. A little hide away where they cannot be touched unless they launch drones. They've been given an instance...
If anyone out there at all has managed to locate a deadspace mission runner by scanning for their ship signature (not their drones) since the patch, I'll forever shut up about the new probing system and rally for the 'bears cause. Anyone at all, don't be shy.
I'll tell you what, I'll go one better: 100m isk to the first person to provide adequate proof of this being possible, preferably by fraps footage. Whether the targets an innocent 'bear or and alt I don't care, just show me it's possible.
-----------
Join channel 'ExScape' or die! (bring pie)
I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus
I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
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Tharim
Code-Blue
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Posted - 2006.12.15 12:49:00 -
[51]
Wrayeth. Could it be that you need to skill up abit? Think you mentioned somewhere you had only a lvl1 skill.
Originally by: Sharkbait
what queue are you stuck in. logging into the character selection page, logging into game, or jumping somewhere?
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Shayla Sh'inlux
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.12.15 12:59:00 -
[52]
Originally by: "Damien Smith"
Stuff
Give this man a medal. This couldn't have been said better. I agree 100%.
I'll throw in 25mil more for someone who can show me fraps of how to probe a mission runner in deadspace without having omguber luck and without scanning for the drones.
Originally by: "Cy4n1d3"
You can't PVP with 4 mids.
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Ishana
Minmatar
The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.12.15 13:12:00 -
[53]
Damien Smith 4tw. Well said.
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
CCP should go back to the old scanning system with the scanning planes, apply the new skills to this system so it's faster and more accurate. Change the triangulation skill so it increases the scanning plane by about 20% per lvl. (so 2au scanning plane at lvl 5)
This will allow people in normal savespots to be found pretty quickly, and mission runners will not be save, but you have to work for it to find them. (not a push of a button) I used to do this before kali and I would find missions in about 10-20 minutes. with the new skills I'd say it could be 5-15 minutes, which in my eyes would be good since you actually have to know what you're doing to even get a result, and if you're unlucky the mission has already ended.
_________________________________________________________
Please resize your signature to the limits specified in the forum rules, thanks. -wystler ([email protected]) |
Slevin Kalebra
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Posted - 2006.12.15 13:32:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Slevin Kalebra on 15/12/2006 13:37:31
It's a difficult balance to strike, and it'll probably be a few more iterations / pendulum swings before they find a balance that most people on both sides can live with.
Many pirates look down on mission running carebears as a lower life form, but it's not all that easy to run low-sec solo level 4's and it's pretty much impossible to fight both players and npcs simultaneously (which is in effect what the gankbears want - zero risk killing so they can kid themselves that they're uber... well next time try taking that Raven when he's not otherwise engaged with 40 npcs pouring hundreds of dps into his shields).
My theory is that since Rev scanning was so easy and many 'pirates' (the gankbear crowd at least) went hog wild on a lowsec-mission-running-carebear-ganking-killing-spree they forced the mission running herd (an incredibly timid species for the most part), into a panic-stricken stampede towards high sec where they will continue to hide until they feel it's 'safe' to come out again.
Kinda like hunting IRL - if you kill too many (of a herd / flock) too quickly they will move elsewhere and not come back for a good long time because they're not that stupid. FFS surely you gotta realise if you cull every last mission runner that comes into your hunting ground they are going to stop coming.
If the patch wasn't effective in making low-sec missions 'safe' the carebear mission runners would not come back to low sec again. Back to the wildlife example... would you want to be the first penguin in the water when you knew there was a pod of killer sharks out there?
If the first ones back in survive the experience, then the rest of them will (probably) follow but if every time there was a minor tweak and a few of the braver mission runners try their luck and were promptly and comprehensively ganked then most would in all probability never come back out to play.
They need to feel safe again, (at least temporarily) then the whole scanning system can be balanced by degrees, otherwise the 'balancing' will be mostly theoretical because few will take the chances.
I don't believe they've got it right yet (the oversight on the drones is comical proof that this wasn't thought through properly). It does need to be more difficult than it was (initially post-Rev) to discover mission-runners, but there are plenty of more creative solutions than just making it harder to detect mission deadspace.
Scanning for ships should be something that involves some skill in placing sensors, e.g. 3D triangulation and there should be countermeasures available to the mission-runners at the cost of rendering them less effective in the mission, e.g. a high slot decoy launcher, low-slot scan signature reduction mod (replacement for now useless WCS).
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.12.15 13:34:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 15/12/2006 13:39:00
Imho they should just introduce a new probe type, 'Deadspace Probe' which is used from the standard probe launcher. They should prolly come in the same flavors as the normal ship scan probes, don't get the detection penalty from deadspace, and have a maximum AND minimum scan deviation that will put you into a spot from which you can use the next probe down the line, but NOT get a result to bypass one or even get a pinpoint location.
So for example if someone starts with a 40 AU probe, maxskills in a rigged up covops, under optimal circumstances it will take him some 8 minutes to find the mission, ~2 minutes less for each level of probe lower he starts with. During the final 4 minutes, his probes are detectable by the mission runner, which gives fair warning to the attentive ones.
This would be very close to the old system, just getting rid of the stupid plane thing and the need for multiple probes (Triangulation will not work in many systems where the warpable objects are more or less lined up anyway). And it would not upset the new system (which is fine for scanning safespots) at all.
---------
ZOMG my sig was concordokkened!
Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Kamazani
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2006.12.15 13:39:00 -
[56]
awwwwwwww you can't grief people anymore... (directed at the OP) i feel so bad for you honey snookums. how about a hug?
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by: GinoShin on 21/11/2006 11:41:44
whats evemon is it like a jamican wiseman? |
Kamazani
Minmatar
Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2006.12.15 13:41:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 15/12/2006 13:39:00
Imho they should just introduce a new probe type, 'Deadspace Probe' which is used from the standard probe launcher. They should prolly come in the same flavors as the normal ship scan probes, don't get the detection penalty from deadspace, and have a maximum AND minimum scan deviation that will put you into a spot from which you can use the next probe down the line, but NOT get a result to bypass one or even get a pinpoint location.
So for example if someone starts with a 40 AU probe, maxskills in a rigged up covops, under optimal circumstances it will take him some 8 minutes to find the mission, ~2 minutes less for each level of probe lower he starts with. During the final 4 minutes, his probes are detectable by the mission runner, which gives fair warning to the attentive ones.
This would be very close to the old system, just getting rid of the stupid plane thing and the need for multiple probes (Triangulation will not work in many systems where the warpable objects are more or less lined up anyway). And it would not upset the new system (which is fine for scanning safespots) at all.
no.. stay out of my mission.
---------------------------
by: GinoShin on 21/11/2006 11:41:44
whats evemon is it like a jamican wiseman? |
Ishana
Minmatar
The Black Rabbits
|
Posted - 2006.12.15 13:46:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Kamazani
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 15/12/2006 13:39:00
Imho they should just introduce a new probe type, 'Deadspace Probe' which is used from the standard probe launcher. They should prolly come in the same flavors as the normal ship scan probes, don't get the detection penalty from deadspace, and have a maximum AND minimum scan deviation that will put you into a spot from which you can use the next probe down the line, but NOT get a result to bypass one or even get a pinpoint location.
So for example if someone starts with a 40 AU probe, maxskills in a rigged up covops, under optimal circumstances it will take him some 8 minutes to find the mission, ~2 minutes less for each level of probe lower he starts with. During the final 4 minutes, his probes are detectable by the mission runner, which gives fair warning to the attentive ones.
This would be very close to the old system, just getting rid of the stupid plane thing and the need for multiple probes (Triangulation will not work in many systems where the warpable objects are more or less lined up anyway). And it would not upset the new system (which is fine for scanning safespots) at all.
no.. stay out of my mission.
Go play WoW you have instances there already.
_________________________________________________________
Please resize your signature to the limits specified in the forum rules, thanks. -wystler ([email protected]) |
Lunarmist
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Posted - 2006.12.15 13:51:00 -
[59]
Well, I got visited twice in mission lastnight while doing a few lvl 3s in .2 system. So it must be working. My other lost his mission objective item while in duo of death mission in Mostu as well. That was a quick scan too consider he poped in right as I almost killed the first BS. He open fired on the 2nd ship with his geddon and got the kill. So, it didn't take him more than 7 minutes to find my mission. Guess you might have to find how prob works. There is such thing called too many probs now.
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Luke Pubcrawler
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Posted - 2006.12.15 14:10:00 -
[60]
As I understand it the Kali scan changes were not intended to make it easier to scan mission runners. they were introduced at the request of 0.0 players irritated by cloaked recon ships and the the like. Making it easier to find these targets made it easier to find misson runners.
In other words the brief period when even highsec mission runners could found found and their lives made difficult was a mistake and never intended by CCP. Now the balanc for mission runners has been restored to where it was pre-kali whilst the 0.0 players have an easier time scanning their targets, exactly what was intended.
Looks like the system will be just about fine once they sort out the drone issue. Scanning misson runners should be very difficult, bordering on but not quite impossible.
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