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Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.14 17:20:00 - [1] Alrighty, Since the Wednesday patch, I have not been able to successfully probe out any missions runners, and I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this problem. I realize it was supposed to be made more difficult, but it's more like impossible as far as I can tell. Anyone had any luck? -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.14 17:31:00 - [2] Aparently the strength of sigs inside deadspace complexes got reduced to 1/100th. There are reports that drones are still easy to find, though, you might try to scan for those instead of ships. Also, if you can get within 4 AU of them you might want to try it with the right racial quest exploration probe since they are 12.5 times as strong as the snoob one.
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:14:00 - [3] So the carebears won, and they're once again invulnerable while running missions? W T F I thought CCP intended this to be a PvP game. I can't believe they caved so completely to the mission runners--I could see it being made more difficult, but not this level of difficulty. I just can't believe this. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
JForce N.W.A	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:21:00 - [4] Come on, be fair. It shouldn't necessarily be possible for you to ruin the game they want to play at EVERY opportunity except hi-sec. Inside the complex is fair enough, they can do their thing. It's not like it's impossible for you to get them. Bubble on the gate? Pirates are still ganking all over. Just because scanning in a mission isn't an "I-Win" anymore
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:34:00 - [5] Edited by: Wrayeth on 14/12/2006 21:34:18 Originally by: JForce Come on, be fair. It shouldn't necessarily be possible for you to ruin the game they want to play at EVERY opportunity except hi-sec. Inside the complex is fair enough, they can do their thing. It's not like it's impossible for you to get them. Bubble on the gate? Pirates are still ganking all over. Just because scanning in a mission isn't an "I-Win" anymore You can't bubble people in lowsec or highsec. Right now, my alliance primarily concerns itself with Empire wars. As such, our targets generally mission-***** to make ISK. It's impossible to disrupt a mission runner if he has insta-undock bookmarks, now, since he undocks and warps off before you can lock him down, then goes directly to the mission where you cannot probe him. Then, after finishing, he returns to station with warp to zero. The sum effect is that he is completely invulnerable and can ignore the wardec entirely. In order to wage war effectively, you must strike at your opponent's lines of supply as well as his military forces. Without the ability to do the former, your chance of succeeding drops significantly. With mission-runners being completely invulnerable, this is a line of supply that cannot be cut no matter how much effort is poured into it. You could camp the station with 250 ships (assuming you have that many) and it still will not matter; bubbles do not work in Empire, so the opponent can get away with little effort. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Weirda Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:39:00 - [6] another case of 'real problem' causing people to demand immediate solution... and solution not entirely in context of all the other change (as Wrayeth mention). unfortunately rather then 'nerf/modify' what aggressor could do when he got there (right solution in context), they just made it so he couldn't get there (by throwing in one simple modifier). too bad. __ Weirda Join QotSA
Murehz	Posted - 2006.12.14 22:03:00 - [7] Originally by: Wrayeth Edited by: Wrayeth on 14/12/2006 21:34:18 Originally by: JForce Come on, be fair. It shouldn't necessarily be possible for you to ruin the game they want to play at EVERY opportunity except hi-sec. Inside the complex is fair enough, they can do their thing. It's not like it's impossible for you to get them. Bubble on the gate? Pirates are still ganking all over. Just because scanning in a mission isn't an "I-Win" anymore You can't bubble people in lowsec or highsec. Right now, my alliance primarily concerns itself with Empire wars. As such, our targets generally mission-***** to make ISK. It's impossible to disrupt a mission runner if he has insta-undock bookmarks, now, since he undocks and warps off before you can lock him down, then goes directly to the mission where you cannot probe him. Then, after finishing, he returns to station with warp to zero. The sum effect is that he is completely invulnerable and can ignore the wardec entirely. In order to wage war effectively, you must strike at your opponent's lines of supply as well as his military forces. Without the ability to do the former, your chance of succeeding drops significantly. With mission-runners being completely invulnerable, this is a line of supply that cannot be cut no matter how much effort is poured into it. You could camp the station with 250 ships (assuming you have that many) and it still will not matter; bubbles do not work in Empire, so the opponent can get away with little effort. Why not just stick cans outside the station so they get stuck when they undock and try to warp off.
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.14 22:12:00 - [8] Originally by: Murehz Why not just stick cans outside the station so they get stuck when they undock and try to warp off. Well, aside from the fact that the GMs tend to get annoyed when you block station exits with cans, the main problem is that a ship just passes through other ships and objects when it first undocks and until either a.) the undocking timer expires, or b.) the pilot activates a module, tries to warp, etc. This means that, as long as the first and only thing he does upon undocking is select "warp to-" on his instaundock bookmark while still moving fast enough on his undock push-out, he'll never have a chance to bump anything since he can't be bumped when on the undocking timer and again can't be bumped while actually in warp (and he will hit warp instantly). -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Foulis Minmatar Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.14 22:13:00 - [9] Originally by: Murehz Originally by: Wrayeth Edited by: Wrayeth on 14/12/2006 21:34:18 Originally by: JForce Come on, be fair. It shouldn't necessarily be possible for you to ruin the game they want to play at EVERY opportunity except hi-sec. Inside the complex is fair enough, they can do their thing. It's not like it's impossible for you to get them. Bubble on the gate? Pirates are still ganking all over. Just because scanning in a mission isn't an "I-Win" anymore You can't bubble people in lowsec or highsec. Right now, my alliance primarily concerns itself with Empire wars. As such, our targets generally mission-*** to make ISK. It's impossible to disrupt a mission runner if he has insta-undock bookmarks, now, since he undocks and warps off before you can lock him down, then goes directly to the mission where you cannot probe him. Then, after finishing, he returns to station with warp to zero. The sum effect is that he is completely invulnerable and can ignore the wardec entirely. In order to wage war effectively, you must strike at your opponent's lines of supply as well as his military forces. Without the ability to do the former, your chance of succeeding drops significantly. With mission-runners being completely invulnerable, this is a line of supply that cannot be cut no matter how much effort is poured into it. You could camp the station with 250 ships (assuming you have that many) and it still will not matter; bubbles do not work in Empire, so the opponent can get away with little effort. Why not just stick cans outside the station so they get stuck when they undock and try to warp off. Last I checked you can get petitioned if you place enough cans specifically to do things like that (we have trouble with cloakers). ---- Originally by:** Nikolai Nuvolari NO WORDS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARE SPELLED WITH THE NUMBER "8" IN THEM GODDAMNIT!
Murehz	Posted - 2006.12.14 22:16:00 - [10] Originally by: Wrayeth Originally by: Murehz Why not just stick cans outside the station so they get stuck when they undock and try to warp off. Well, aside from the fact that the GMs tend to get annoyed when you block station exits with cans, the main problem is that a ship just passes through other ships and objects when it first undocks and until either a.) the undocking timer expires, or b.) the pilot activates a module, tries to warp, etc. This means that, as long as the first and only thing he does upon undocking is select "warp to-" on his instaundock bookmark while still moving fast enough on his undock push-out, he'll never have a chance to bump anything since he can't be bumped when on the undocking timer and again can't be bumped while actually in warp (and he will hit warp instantly). I don't know much about this but surely to instantly warp it would have to be pretty much straight ahead. Couldn't you set up ppl ready to scan for where the point he warps to is and then sit there when he next tries it?
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.14 22:27:00 - [11] Originally by: Murehz I don't know much about this but surely to instantly warp it would have to be pretty much straight ahead. Couldn't you set up ppl ready to scan for where the point he warps to is and then sit there when he next tries it? You can, but the problem is this: he won't stay there long enough for the probe to finish scanning. He'll arrive at the insta-undock point, then warp to the mission immediately thereafter. Thus, as long as his mission's in the same system, you can't touch him. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.14 22:53:00 - [12] then you have to work for it, if he's alwasy there then time how long the avg mission is, say 30min. then find out what ship he uses possibly with the normal scaner, then use the basic scan method to find what he is near then use a probe to lock onto him.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.12.14 23:08:00 - [13] Originally by: Wrayeth So the carebears won, and they're once again invulnerable while running missions? W T F My understanding is that it's gotten a lot harder but not impossible. Now it depends on having good skills and using multiple probes...whereas before I was able to bust missions with L1 skills and 1 probe. :P I haven't gotten a chance to try it myself since the patch though, so I'm not sure whether it's harder than I'd like, still too easy, or just about right. My guess is that long L4s are still going to be quite bustable, but we'll see. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Cythrawl Caldari Central Defiance Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.14 23:20:00 - [14] Originally by: Wrayeth You can't bubble people in lowsec or highsec. Right now, my alliance primarily concerns itself with Empire wars. As such, our targets generally mission-(Edit) to make ISK. It's impossible to disrupt a mission runner if he has insta-undock bookmarks, now, since he undocks and warps off before you can lock him down, then goes directly to the mission where you cannot probe him. Then, after finishing, he returns to station with warp to zero. The sum effect is that he is completely invulnerable and can ignore the wardec entirely. They make interceptors for a reason. If a primary tackle inty can't hold a mission runner from warping off after undocking in anything bigger than a cruiser, they need to be shot. Sensor booster and 20k scramb should do the trick. Just means you have to field more people than a single ganker... Even if all you managed to do was keep them in the station, that means they can't run the missions. And anyone attaching warp core stabs to a mission ship now is shooting themselves in the foot anyway. =+=+=+=+=+=+= Time to go with a more... Honest, sig.
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.15 00:07:00 - [15] Originally by: "Tsanse Kinske" My understanding is that it's gotten a lot harder but not impossible. Now it depends on having good skills and using multiple probes... You cannot place multiple probes around an off-plane mission spot. There's nothing to warp to to make the necessary scanspot. Originally by: "Cythrawl" They make interceptors for a reason. If a primary tackle inty can't hold a mission runner from warping off after undocking Even if it was possible, which it isn't since instaundocks mean the ship is never lockable, the mission runner would simply redock. _____________________________________________
Cythrawl Caldari Central Defiance Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.15 00:18:00 - [16] Originally by: SN3263827 Originally by: "Cythrawl" They make interceptors for a reason. If a primary tackle inty can't hold a mission runner from warping off after undocking Even if it was possible, which it isn't since instaundocks mean the ship is never lockable, the mission runner would simply redock. You missed the whole point. You stop them from leaving. People who don't undock don't run missions and they don't make money. Insta-docks are actually lies as well. I've ended up 2.5k from a station more than once with the 'warp to 0' its possible to get them, you've just gotta get lucky and be quick about it. A Huginn who catches a ship warping in 2.5k away from the station can turn it into a ship that moves at 10m/s. You've got 250 seconds to make it to dock. Have fun. In fact, a Huginn and a Lachesis together can pretty much mean the end of anyone undocking alone. Most of the time you get kicked out away from the station if you don't dock back up as fast as possible. Certain stations are different but you can be caught just as quick as escape sometimes. =+=+=+=+=+=+= Time to go with a more... Honest, sig.
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.15 00:29:00 - [17] You missed the part where it is impossible to lock a ship using an instaundock. And you never land 2500m from dock. You might land 2500m from the station but that isn't the same thing. Anyway, requiring anyone wishing to kill a mission runner to fly a specific ship (and not just a specific class) is a bit much don't you think? _____________________________________________
Vasiliyan PAX Interstellar Services Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.15 00:31:00 - [18] Making it 100 times harder? Erm, ok, that's a proportionate change, really ... Is it still easier than pre-Kali?
Blind Picard	Posted - 2006.12.15 00:31:00 - [19] It seems that is impossible to find a mission runner with the new patch. I can agree with that for the high sec systems, but for the 0.0 mission runners is totaly unfair. WHAT IS THE POINT OF A LOW SEC SYSTEM ?!?! Come on people, wake up!! In this case 0.0 mission runners are more safe than Jita or any 1.0 systems. I know CCP stated they were going to make it harder, but it feels virtually impossible at the moment. They should make mission scanning difficulty proportional to system sec status. 1.0->0.0, Hard->easy. ----------
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.12.15 00:32:00 - [20] Originally by: SN3263827 Originally by: "Tsanse Kinske" My understanding is that it's gotten a lot harder but not impossible. Now it depends on having good skills and using multiple probes... You cannot place multiple probes around an off-plane mission spot. There's nothing to warp to to make the necessary scanspot. I was referring to multiple probe types, not overlapping. Though when the deadspace isn't off-plane, that's probably another strategy to get around this nerf. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.15 00:38:00 - [21] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske I was referring to multiple probe types, not overlapping. Multiple probe types can only help to reduce deviation. Currently you don't get any results at all for ships in Deadspace. No type of probe save an exploration probe (max range 4au) changes that. Scanning is near enough impossible that the difference is negligible. _____________________________________________
DuPuy	Posted - 2006.12.15 00:48:00 - [22] Edited by: DuPuy on 15/12/2006 00:50:19 Edited by: DuPuy on 15/12/2006 00:49:24 Dunno what everyone's panicking about... Undocked this morning, dropped a couple of fathoms... Found a Hurricane and a Tempest missioning in 40seconds. Admittedly, there were probably about 10 others in system missioning at the same time and pre-patch I would have got a lock on just about all of them... (but I'm not greedy ;-) but missioners need some protection (not immunity).... Missioning is a vital step in the path for new characters to become confident/competent enough to attempt pvp. If existing pvp'ers kill them all off and discourage missioning, then there is no "next generation" of pvpers... or probably even eve players...
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.15 00:51:00 - [23] Well, I don't know what you did differently because I (and my corp) spent in excess of 6 hours scanning and got one result. Were they deadspace missions (through a gate) or open space misions? _____________________________________________
DuPuy	Posted - 2006.12.15 01:06:00 - [24] In both instances I warped to a gate. Perhaps a better understanding of how probes work needs to be employed... Or perhaps it's just another implementation of the new "luck" approach to eve mechanics.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.12.15 01:52:00 - [25] Originally by: SN3263827 Originally by: Tsanse Kinske I was referring to multiple probe types, not overlapping. Multiple probe types can only help to reduce deviation. Currently you don't get any results at all for ships in Deadspace. No type of probe save an exploration probe (max range 4au) changes that. Scanning is near enough impossible that the difference is negligible. I'm hearing enough reports of people still busting deadspaces that I think we'll end up differing there. Again, I can't comment yet on whether it's too hard or not, only that saying it's near-impossible seems premature. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.12.15 01:56:00 - [26] Originally by: DuPuy Edited by: DuPuy on 15/12/2006 00:50:19 Edited by: DuPuy on 15/12/2006 00:49:24 Dunno what everyone's panicking about... Undocked this morning, dropped a couple of fathoms... Found a Hurricane and a Tempest missioning in 40seconds. That sounds the same as it was. Did you find them by scanning their drones? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Nah'kesh	Posted - 2006.12.15 03:09:00 - [27] Edited by: Nah''kesh on 15/12/2006 03:09:24 I tried the find drones option... and there were lots on scanner, though not many had "strong" fixes... So I guess that is an easy option to find gallente missioners... The main outcome of the changes is to make probing MUCH more expensive, I think...
DuPuy	Posted - 2006.12.15 03:15:00 - [28] The two I found was by using the "ships" option... but, as indicated, It may have been a low success rate given the number of missioners in the system. And perhaps those ships had lots of shield extenders and warp stabs fitted... there are lots of influences on probing in the game now...
Sinnbad Mayhem Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2006.12.15 03:33:00 - [29] You guys dont get it do you? Think about what your doing for a second. Trying to find people running missions in low sec. BIG YAWN. Go fight in 0.0 and stop acting like children. You know that low sec is dead. You know that your playing the odds game. Looking for easy targets. You know that if they realize you can get them they will go back to High sec. Is that what you want? Leave the damn mission runners alone and go pick a fight with people who want to fight. I would have given my Right Arm for you Wrayeth to come through the gates I was camping in 0.0 Your loot would have been very nice. Pretty pathetic dood. Grow a pair. And go fight ASCN or BOB or somebody. or quit EVE and STFU
Sinnbad Mayhem Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2006.12.15 03:39:00 - [30] And one last thing. Dont give me the "we are at war and need to kill the mission runner crap" Why dont you use your brain and let them run missions and then catch them transporting it? And even better, if their wallets are fat, they can afford juicy fittings. Get it now? Let them get fat and then kill them when they arent looking. Plenty of chances for that in EVE. Just use that grey matter for something and stop the whining. Its getting really pathetic.
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.15 03:41:00 - [31] Edited by: Wrayeth on 15/12/2006 03:50:01 Originally by: Sinnbad Mayhem You guys dont get it do you? Think about what your doing for a second. Trying to find people running missions in low sec. BIG YAWN. Ever heard of Empire wars? Quote: Go fight in 0.0 and stop acting like children. Sorry, no. I got tired of blob warfare after 2 years in 0.0. Solo and small gang combat is much more fun. I go out into 0.0 now and again, but it's no longer my main focus. Quote: You know that low sec is dead. You know that your playing the odds game. Looking for easy targets. You know that if they realize you can get them they will go back to High sec. Is that what you want? I don't care if my upcoming war targets are in low or high security, just that I can probe them down while they're in a mission with sufficient and reasonable effort. Quote: Leave the damn mission runners alone and go pick a fight with people who want to fight. I would have given my Right Arm for you Wrayeth to come through the gates I was camping in 0.0 Your loot would have been very nice. While my loot is, generally, nice, I don't know why you'd think I'd want to get stupidly ganked. A 20-v-1 is hardly anything for you to crow about, anyway. Quote: Pretty pathetic dood. Grow a pair. And go fight ASCN or BOB or somebody. or quit EVE and STFU Been there, done that, BoB pilots drop good loot. I joined a corp involved in Empire wars because it's more fun than 0.0 these days. Blob warfare = suck. POS warfare = suck. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Sinnbad Mayhem Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2006.12.15 03:52:00 - [32] And coming to the forums asking how to kill mission runners is helping your cause, how exactly? Low sec is dead. Find a way to populate it and then enjoy the loot. The days of easy ganks in low sec are numbered. Not because CCF has nerfed them but because Agent runners are not idiots. The risk has outweighed the rewards. These posts are like fishing with a jackhammer. Get it now?
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.15 04:07:00 - [33] Edited by: Wrayeth on 15/12/2006 04:08:21 Originally by: Sinnbad Mayhem And coming to the forums asking how to kill mission runners is helping your cause, how exactly? I'm asking if others are having the same trouble since the patch. It was supposed to be harder, which is fine, but not the next best thing to impossible. Secondly, when conducting a war against an Empire-dwelling alliance, killing the enemy's mission runners helps to cut his lines of supply. This can be likened to ganking enemy NPCers and miners in belts is in 0.0. Quote: Low sec is dead. Find a way to populate it and then enjoy the loot. The days of easy ganks in low sec are numbered. Reading Comprehension 101 is your friend. You might want to try it some time. Just to clarify for you, since you don't seem to understand, I'm primarily interested in the ability to kill mission runners in highsec/lowsec/wherever as part of an Empire war. Just because someone is running a mission does not mean they should be invulnerable. Quote: Not because CCF has nerfed them but because Agent runners are not idiots. The risk has outweighed the rewards. These posts are like fishing with a jackhammer. Get it now? It's YOU who don't get it - I'm not talking about ganking random people in lowsec, like you seem to think because you can't be bothered to read my posts. Yes, it'd be helpful to be able to kill hostiles there, but I'm primarily interested in killing war targets in our future wars. Right now, it's possible to do missions with impunity in both highsec and lowsec, despite the wardec. Now, if you object to people being able to be killed during a CONCORD-sanctioned Empire war, then that would tell me that you're a ganker - you're fine with killing other people, but never want them to be able to kill you in turn. I accept that my ability to run my own missions will be hindered by the ability of our enemies to probe out mission runners, but, frankly, I don't care as long as I can do the same to them. EDIT: Oh, btw, it's "CCP", not "CCF". -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.12.15 04:29:00 - [34] Sinnbad, you seem to be trolling the wrong forum. I believe you're looking for Crime and Punishment, Missions, or maybe General. I'm sure they'd welcome a discussion of the ethics of busting up missions, because it just hasn't been talked about much lately. Good luck! * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
DuPuy	Posted - 2006.12.15 04:50:00 - [35] The fact is, it's not impossible to find missioners. Nowhere near it. It's just not as easy as it was yesterday. yes, you do need to do more than drop one probe then work your way up the list... But not significantly more. Whatever your view, you have to agree it is still far easier to find missioners NOW than it was BEFORE Revelations.
Sinnbad Mayhem Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2006.12.15 05:03:00 - [36] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Sinnbad, you seem to be trolling the wrong forum. I believe you're looking for Crime and Punishment, Missions, or maybe General. I'm sure they'd welcome a discussion of the ethics of busting up missions, because it just hasn't been talked about much lately. Good luck! A self admitted pirate posting about finding mission runners posted under Ships and Mods section, and I am trolling? Maybe or maybe I just wanted to stir the pot in here. Bored atm lol And, YES, YES, YES, you scan for misson runners, get a clue you noobs
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2006.12.15 06:46:00 - [37] You shouldn't be able to completely eliminate your war target. This is not viable for ccp as they don't want their subscribers to quit due to loss in war. There should always be a way to rebuild war losses. This is IMHO why mission runners made unreachable... Get over it, if you want to be able to truely destroy your enemy, go to real life war or something, you can kill ppl persistantly there. EVE however is only a game.
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.15 07:09:00 - [38] Yay WoW in space coming to an Eve cluster near you! That'd be thing #3 in Revelations that is gonna be the downfall of the game. Originally by: "Cy4n1d3" You can't PVP with 4 mids.
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2006.12.15 07:22:00 - [39] Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 15/12/2006 07:22:59 Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Yay WoW in space coming to an Eve cluster near you! That'd be thing #3 in Revelations that is gonna be the downfall of the game. was EVE a WOW-in-space pre-Revelations? I guess not because otherwise you probably wouldn't play it. However pre-revelations things were pretty much the same as now (even worse for pirates in fact, as you needed brain to scan, not just clicking "analyze" again and again for an hour). so why would this make EVE a WOW-in-space if it didn't pre-rev?
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.15 09:36:00 - [40] Pre-Kali probing people took some time, some skill and there was a big difference between good probers and someone who happened to have trained the skills. It was perfectly possible to scan out missionrunners relatively quick by using pre-made scanspots and good direction scanning skills. Now scanning stuff in deadspace is all but impossible thereby offically introducing instancing into Eve killing the concept of the game at the its very heart. That is what makes this WoW in space. Originally by: "Cy4n1d3" You can't PVP with 4 mids.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.15 09:49:00 - [41] The door is that way Sinnbad, make sure it doesn't hit you on the way out. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2006.12.15 10:11:00 - [42] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Pre-Kali probing people took some time, some skill and there was a big difference between good probers and someone who happened to have trained the skills. It was perfectly possible to scan out missionrunners relatively quick by using pre-made scanspots and good direction scanning skills. Now scanning stuff in deadspace is all but impossible thereby offically introducing instancing into Eve killing the concept of the game at the its very heart. That is what makes this WoW in space. you still can use directional scanner to find them, and when you get within 4au you can use exploration probes which have hundreds in scan strength. or if you lack brains to do so just spam observator and eventually you will find them. Missions take lots of time now with 100 km distance between warp in and next gate.
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.15 10:40:00 - [43] Actually, that would only work if missions were in the plane, which they are not. Now, if there's a way to make observer probes give you results within 4au of the mission runner on the same plane, I'll be glad to hear it. I can get within a few AU of the target fairly easy. In fact, I do that with my main in a cruiser or BS since CovOps warp just too frigging fast to get it done properly (with the lag and all). My alt (or someone else's) can then start the scanning. The 4au probes give zero results even though the target is within 1,5 au. Zero results meaning no results on dozens of scans. Unless we're missing an entire game mechanic (which I doubt since we have one guy reporting he can find stuff on this whole forum and about 50 that say they can't) missions are for all intents and purposes instances now. Originally by: "Cy4n1d3" You can't PVP with 4 mids.
EPSILON DELTA	Posted - 2006.12.15 10:51:00 - [44] 1- Right now you can easily find any mission runners if they are using drones. 2- By the looks of equaling this to instancing, I'm sure the devs would fix that while they are fixing drone scans so by the time you can't find people through drones, you could proberbly find the target directly. Having said that, I believe pre-Rev scanning for deadspace was much better, its not impossible, it just require skill that most whining pirates don't have, and its that lack of scanning skill that prevents mission runners from being ganked every 5 min. Those people then found a brainless way to find their target, and when CCP took it away they starts to whine as though the system was somehow balanced when they were getting the benefits.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.15 11:15:00 - [45] Well seeing how one of my fellow runners was ganked yesterday in his mission, is IS still possible. Just a whole lot harder, which is fine. The OPs problem could be solved by trying to fight people who WANT to fight rather than forcing their PvP on PvEers. If you wanna do that and find it hard, good. No sympathy from me. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.15 11:24:00 - [46] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Well seeing how one of my fellow runners was ganked yesterday in his mission, is IS still possible. Just a whole lot harder, which is fine. The OPs problem could be solved by trying to fight people who WANT to fight rather than forcing their PvP on PvEers. If you wanna do that and find it hard, good. No sympathy from me. Lets look at it from your perspective then because this is not just about mission runners it's about the option to create an effectively unprobeable safe. You are having a mining op in lowsec, a pirate decides to crash the party and kill some barges for you. So you get a vigilanty squad together to get revenge. But you can get him because he is using your beloved mission protection against you by hiding in a level 1 mission which are readily available every where in empire. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Sinnbad Mayhem Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2006.12.15 12:00:00 - [47] Originally by: Hoshi The door is that way Sinnbad, make sure it doesn't hit you on the way out. I aint going anywhere, so yu can kiss my ugly butfortress. honestly, bullying me is useless. but give it your best shot but yeah back to the argument or whine or whatever, to the OP, no safe should be 100% safe. but i guess CCP wants to give ppl the chance to still make isk. but missions can still be probed just not as easy as b4. And to Hoshi, this aint WOW in space. Big deal some guy hides in a mission. YAWN. If your not bright enough to figure out how to kill him then go play WOW you noob. you guys want everything handed to you and when you dont you come to the forums like babies and then tell everyone to go play WOW.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.15 12:01:00 - [48] Remove low end agents from lowsec? Not like there are any in my vicinity atm, so they are not really readily available. Plus I couldn't care less if a mining op gets busted, they deserve that if they didn't run at the first sign of hostiles in local. Miners CAN do that without much penalty, mission runners can't. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Hephaesteus Gallente PILGRIMS Insane Asylum	Posted - 2006.12.15 12:07:00 - [49] If you want a war decced target bad enough sooner or later you will get him. The question for you is how bad do you want to get him. If you are looking for a quick gank it is probably not worth the effort, but if you want bragging rights it's always worth the wait. ----------------------------------------------- Knowing all, when all is unknown.
Damien Smith ExScape	Posted - 2006.12.15 12:41:00 - [50] You know what I find really interesting about this whole debate? Pre-Kali I never heard a single bad word said about the scan probing system aside from the probe scan area being a disc rather than a sphere. It was balanced, fun to learn and challenging to master. Then post-Kali it was made so ridiculously easy a trained monkey could do it. Everyone whined about it, from the most harmless mission running carebear to the most battle hardened pirate there is. It was then made impossible to do unless you use the pseudo-sploit of scanning for their drones. This is an 'I-lose' button for Gallente pilots and will no doubt get fixed. The only option then is spamming exploration probes (do they even work to find mission deadspaces?) and hoping for a lucky hit. Not to mention that they don't even fit in a recon launcher so good luck getting a result this side of this century. The point I'm trying to make is this: Pre-Kali - Probing is perfectly balanced because very few pilots could be called 'expert' probers, and this keeps the carebears relatively safe, while still rewarding those who put in the time to learn. The system isn't tipped in favour of anyone except those who are truly '1337'. Whinage: None from both pirates and 'bears because it was a well balanced system. Post-Kali - A lobotomised monkey on tranquillisers could probe the average mission. The balance has been tipped extremely heavily in favour of the pirates. Whinage: Pirates hate it because it takes no skill and is therefore a pointless exercise. It becomes a purely isk making exercise like gatecamps are because there's no challenge. Mission runners hate it because they get farmed like the NPCs they love to kill. The forums are in uproar. Post-Recent Kali patch - Probing is impossible unless you use the pseudo-exploit of probing the targets drones, or using exploration probes that may or may not work (someone who's tried this help me out here) and don't fit into the dedicated ship scanner launcher, the Recon Probe Launcher I. The balance has been tipped extremely heavily in favour of the 'bears. Whinage: Pirates have been effectively stripped of their ability to probe any missioners that aren't Gallente and are whining accordingly. Mission runners are keeping uncharactaristically silent except where doing forum battle vs the pirates to defend their newfound invincibility. The 'bears have been given a true 'I-win' button. A little hide away where they cannot be touched unless they launch drones. They've been given an instance... If anyone out there at all has managed to locate a deadspace mission runner by scanning for their ship signature (not their drones) since the patch, I'll forever shut up about the new probing system and rally for the 'bears cause. Anyone at all, don't be shy. I'll tell you what, I'll go one better: 100m isk to the first person to provide adequate proof of this being possible, preferably by fraps footage. Whether the targets an innocent 'bear or and alt I don't care, just show me it's possible. ----------- Join channel 'ExScape' or die! (bring pie) I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
Tharim Code-Blue	Posted - 2006.12.15 12:49:00 - [51] Wrayeth. Could it be that you need to skill up abit? Think you mentioned somewhere you had only a lvl1 skill. Originally by: Sharkbait what queue are you stuck in. logging into the character selection page, logging into game, or jumping somewhere?
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.15 12:59:00 - [52] Originally by: "Damien Smith" Stuff Give this man a medal. This couldn't have been said better. I agree 100%. I'll throw in 25mil more for someone who can show me fraps of how to probe a mission runner in deadspace without having omguber luck and without scanning for the drones. Originally by: "Cy4n1d3" You can't PVP with 4 mids.
Ishana Minmatar The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.15 13:12:00 - [53] Damien Smith 4tw. Well said. I've said it before and I'll say it again: CCP should go back to the old scanning system with the scanning planes, apply the new skills to this system so it's faster and more accurate. Change the triangulation skill so it increases the scanning plane by about 20% per lvl. (so 2au scanning plane at lvl 5) This will allow people in normal savespots to be found pretty quickly, and mission runners will not be save, but you have to work for it to find them. (not a push of a button) I used to do this before kali and I would find missions in about 10-20 minutes. with the new skills I'd say it could be 5-15 minutes, which in my eyes would be good since you actually have to know what you're doing to even get a result, and if you're unlucky the mission has already ended. _________________________________________________________ Please resize your signature to the limits specified in the forum rules, thanks. -wystler ([email protected])
Slevin Kalebra	Posted - 2006.12.15 13:32:00 - [54] Edited by: Slevin Kalebra on 15/12/2006 13:37:31 It's a difficult balance to strike, and it'll probably be a few more iterations / pendulum swings before they find a balance that most people on both sides can live with. Many pirates look down on mission running carebears as a lower life form, but it's not all that easy to run low-sec solo level 4's and it's pretty much impossible to fight both players and npcs simultaneously (which is in effect what the gankbears want - zero risk killing so they can kid themselves that they're uber... well next time try taking that Raven when he's not otherwise engaged with 40 npcs pouring hundreds of dps into his shields). My theory is that since Rev scanning was so easy and many 'pirates' (the gankbear crowd at least) went hog wild on a lowsec-mission-running-carebear-ganking-killing-spree they forced the mission running herd (an incredibly timid species for the most part), into a panic-stricken stampede towards high sec where they will continue to hide until they feel it's 'safe' to come out again. Kinda like hunting IRL - if you kill too many (of a herd / flock) too quickly they will move elsewhere and not come back for a good long time because they're not that stupid. FFS surely you gotta realise if you cull every last mission runner that comes into your hunting ground they are going to stop coming. If the patch wasn't effective in making low-sec missions 'safe' the carebear mission runners would not come back to low sec again. Back to the wildlife example... would you want to be the first penguin in the water when you knew there was a pod of killer sharks out there? If the first ones back in survive the experience, then the rest of them will (probably) follow but if every time there was a minor tweak and a few of the braver mission runners try their luck and were promptly and comprehensively ganked then most would in all probability never come back out to play. They need to feel safe again, (at least temporarily) then the whole scanning system can be balanced by degrees, otherwise the 'balancing' will be mostly theoretical because few will take the chances. I don't believe they've got it right yet (the oversight on the drones is comical proof that this wasn't thought through properly). It does need to be more difficult than it was (initially post-Rev) to discover mission-runners, but there are plenty of more creative solutions than just making it harder to detect mission deadspace. Scanning for ships should be something that involves some skill in placing sensors, e.g. 3D triangulation and there should be countermeasures available to the mission-runners at the cost of rendering them less effective in the mission, e.g. a high slot decoy launcher, low-slot scan signature reduction mod (replacement for now useless WCS).
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.15 13:34:00 - [55] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 15/12/2006 13:39:00 Imho they should just introduce a new probe type, 'Deadspace Probe' which is used from the standard probe launcher. They should prolly come in the same flavors as the normal ship scan probes, don't get the detection penalty from deadspace, and have a maximum AND minimum scan deviation that will put you into a spot from which you can use the next probe down the line, but NOT get a result to bypass one or even get a pinpoint location. So for example if someone starts with a 40 AU probe, maxskills in a rigged up covops, under optimal circumstances it will take him some 8 minutes to find the mission, ~2 minutes less for each level of probe lower he starts with. During the final 4 minutes, his probes are detectable by the mission runner, which gives fair warning to the attentive ones. This would be very close to the old system, just getting rid of the stupid plane thing and the need for multiple probes (Triangulation will not work in many systems where the warpable objects are more or less lined up anyway). And it would not upset the new system (which is fine for scanning safespots) at all. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Kamazani Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.12.15 13:39:00 - [56] awwwwwwww you can't grief people anymore... (directed at the OP) i feel so bad for you honey snookums. how about a hug? --------------------------- by: GinoShin on 21/11/2006 11:41:44 whats evemon is it like a jamican wiseman?
Kamazani Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.12.15 13:41:00 - [57] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 15/12/2006 13:39:00 Imho they should just introduce a new probe type, 'Deadspace Probe' which is used from the standard probe launcher. They should prolly come in the same flavors as the normal ship scan probes, don't get the detection penalty from deadspace, and have a maximum AND minimum scan deviation that will put you into a spot from which you can use the next probe down the line, but NOT get a result to bypass one or even get a pinpoint location. So for example if someone starts with a 40 AU probe, maxskills in a rigged up covops, under optimal circumstances it will take him some 8 minutes to find the mission, ~2 minutes less for each level of probe lower he starts with. During the final 4 minutes, his probes are detectable by the mission runner, which gives fair warning to the attentive ones. This would be very close to the old system, just getting rid of the stupid plane thing and the need for multiple probes (Triangulation will not work in many systems where the warpable objects are more or less lined up anyway). And it would not upset the new system (which is fine for scanning safespots) at all. no.. stay out of my mission. --------------------------- by: GinoShin on 21/11/2006 11:41:44 whats evemon is it like a jamican wiseman?
Ishana Minmatar The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.15 13:46:00 - [58] Originally by: Kamazani Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 15/12/2006 13:39:00 Imho they should just introduce a new probe type, 'Deadspace Probe' which is used from the standard probe launcher. They should prolly come in the same flavors as the normal ship scan probes, don't get the detection penalty from deadspace, and have a maximum AND minimum scan deviation that will put you into a spot from which you can use the next probe down the line, but NOT get a result to bypass one or even get a pinpoint location. So for example if someone starts with a 40 AU probe, maxskills in a rigged up covops, under optimal circumstances it will take him some 8 minutes to find the mission, ~2 minutes less for each level of probe lower he starts with. During the final 4 minutes, his probes are detectable by the mission runner, which gives fair warning to the attentive ones. This would be very close to the old system, just getting rid of the stupid plane thing and the need for multiple probes (Triangulation will not work in many systems where the warpable objects are more or less lined up anyway). And it would not upset the new system (which is fine for scanning safespots) at all. no.. stay out of my mission. Go play WoW you have instances there already. _________________________________________________________ Please resize your signature to the limits specified in the forum rules, thanks. -wystler ([email protected])
Lunarmist	Posted - 2006.12.15 13:51:00 - [59] Well, I got visited twice in mission lastnight while doing a few lvl 3s in .2 system. So it must be working. My other lost his mission objective item while in duo of death mission in Mostu as well. That was a quick scan too consider he poped in right as I almost killed the first BS. He open fired on the 2nd ship with his geddon and got the kill. So, it didn't take him more than 7 minutes to find my mission. Guess you might have to find how prob works. There is such thing called too many probs now.
Luke Pubcrawler	Posted - 2006.12.15 14:10:00 - [60] As I understand it the Kali scan changes were not intended to make it easier to scan mission runners. they were introduced at the request of 0.0 players irritated by cloaked recon ships and the the like. Making it easier to find these targets made it easier to find misson runners. In other words the brief period when even highsec mission runners could found found and their lives made difficult was a mistake and never intended by CCP. Now the balanc for mission runners has been restored to where it was pre-kali whilst the 0.0 players have an easier time scanning their targets, exactly what was intended. Looks like the system will be just about fine once they sort out the drone issue. Scanning misson runners should be very difficult, bordering on but not quite impossible.
Kamazani Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.12.15 14:17:00 - [61] Edited by: Kamazani on 15/12/2006 14:26:51 Originally by: Ishana Originally by: Kamazani Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 15/12/2006 13:39:00 Imho they should just introduce a new probe type, 'Deadspace Probe' which is used from the standard probe launcher. They should prolly come in the same flavors as the normal ship scan probes, don't get the detection penalty from deadspace, and have a maximum AND minimum scan deviation that will put you into a spot from which you can use the next probe down the line, but NOT get a result to bypass one or even get a pinpoint location. So for example if someone starts with a 40 AU probe, maxskills in a rigged up covops, under optimal circumstances it will take him some 8 minutes to find the mission, ~2 minutes less for each level of probe lower he starts with. During the final 4 minutes, his probes are detectable by the mission runner, which gives fair warning to the attentive ones. This would be very close to the old system, just getting rid of the stupid plane thing and the need for multiple probes (Triangulation will not work in many systems where the warpable objects are more or less lined up anyway). And it would not upset the new system (which is fine for scanning safespots) at all. no.. stay out of my mission. Go play WoW you have instances there already. already did... the whines are worse over there. there's a pve part and a pvp part to this game. neither should not be mixed.. carebears in eve mind their own business ingame, pirates are like ****'s cuz they thinks it's fun to be cruel and get a rise out of benefiting from another person's misery, lastly... pvp'ers try force their ways on other's. I like pvp (at my behest) and i also like missions... missions are quite relaxing after a long and grinding day of work. I dont' need to spend the next 2 hours of my time spending money on new modules cuz lofty or some other pirate asshat thinks it's funny. If I'm not set for pvp or in lowsec, I shouldn't have to be forced into something I dont' want to do. edit: that being said, there aren't a whole lot of Sci-fi games quite as good as eve and anarchy online, so my choices are slim. Until blizzard comes out with "Starcraft" mmo.... i'm gonna stay here and try to enjoy it the best i can. --------------------------- by: GinoShin on 21/11/2006 11:41:44 whats evemon is it like a jamican wiseman?
Sinnbad Mayhem Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2006.12.15 14:18:00 - [62] Apology to Wrayeth and Hoshi and all, Your right, the current system needs to be rebalanced. It does seem a tad bit too hard. And in low sec, everyone should be fair game. Dont know what I was thinking when I posted. Got some personal crap to fix, shouldnt have got angry with ya all. /me no more forum posts for me for long time
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.15 15:24:00 - [63] Originally by: Kamazani already did... the whines are worse over there. there's a pve part and a pvp part to this game. neither should be mixed.. {...} I like pvp (at my behest) EvE is not a "consentual combat" game. Get over it. _____________________________________________
M00dy Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.12.15 15:26:00 - [64] Cool apology Sinbad.
Breed Love FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.15 15:27:00 - [65] Originally by: Kamazani Edited by: Kamazani on 15/12/2006 14:48:31 Edited by: Kamazani on 15/12/2006 14:26:51 Originally by: Ishana Originally by: Kamazani Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 15/12/2006 13:39:00 Imho they should just introduce a new probe type, 'Deadspace Probe' which is used from the standard probe launcher. They should prolly come in the same flavors as the normal ship scan probes, don't get the detection penalty from deadspace, and have a maximum AND minimum scan deviation that will put you into a spot from which you can use the next probe down the line, but NOT get a result to bypass one or even get a pinpoint location. So for example if someone starts with a 40 AU probe, maxskills in a rigged up covops, under optimal circumstances it will take him some 8 minutes to find the mission, ~2 minutes less for each level of probe lower he starts with. During the final 4 minutes, his probes are detectable by the mission runner, which gives fair warning to the attentive ones. This would be very close to the old system, just getting rid of the stupid plane thing and the need for multiple probes (Triangulation will not work in many systems where the warpable objects are more or less lined up anyway). And it would not upset the new system (which is fine for scanning safespots) at all. no.. stay out of my mission. Go play WoW you have instances there already. already did... the whines are worse over there. there's a pve part and a pvp part to this game. neither should be mixed.. carebears in eve mind their own business ingame, pirates are like **'s cuz they thinks it's fun to be cruel and get a rise out of benefiting from another person's misery, lastly... pvp'ers try force their ways on other's. I like pvp (at my behest) and i also like missions... missions are quite relaxing after a long and grinding day of work. I dont' need to spend the next 2 hours of my time spending money on new modules cuz lofty or some other pirate asshat thinks it's funny. If I'm not set for pvp or in lowsec, I shouldn't have to be forced into something I dont' want to do. edit: that being said, there aren't a whole lot of Sci-fi games quite as good as eve and anarchy online, so my choices are slim. Until blizzard comes out with "Starcraft" mmo.... i'm gonna stay here and try to enjoy it the best i can. You are in a wrong game, dear. Originally by:** Wrangler We don't want to discriminate anyone! We want both anti-social and social players to grief each other!
Ishan Shade	Posted - 2006.12.15 15:31:00 - [66] Originally by: SN3263827 Originally by: Kamazani already did... the whines are worse over there. there's a pve part and a pvp part to this game. neither should be mixed.. {...} I like pvp (at my behest) EvE is not a "consentual combat" game. Get over it. just to add some proof to this claim: Originally by: Oveur EVE is primarily a PVP game and hence our focus is on making that experience balanced. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=155334&page=2#35
Kamazani Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.12.15 15:36:00 - [67] Originally by: Ishan Shade Originally by: SN3263827 Originally by: Kamazani already did... the whines are worse over there. there's a pve part and a pvp part to this game. neither should be mixed.. {...} I like pvp (at my behest) EvE is not a "consentual combat" game. Get over it. just to add some proof to this claim: Originally by: Oveur EVE is primarily a PVP game and hence our focus is on making that experience balanced. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=155334&page=2#35 doesn't mean I have to PVP or pirate or grief or anything. all you punks can get off your high horse.... I pay just as much as you do. forcing me to do what I don't want to do and saying <falsetto**** voice> yer in the wrong game dear.... isn't going to change anything. I still play this game until I have a personal reason not to. so bite it. --------------------------- by: GinoShin on 21/11/2006 11:41:44 whats evemon is it like a jamican wiseman?
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.15 15:41:00 - [68] I've just spent another hour and a half trying this out. I had my alt accept a level 1 mission, and then put my main in the mission spot while my alt scanned from the mission gate. After 10 attempts with 5 au probes I decided to try overlapping probes. Unfortunately, even knowing exactly where the spot was I couldn't get into a position to drop 2 probes that overlapped, so I completed the mission (can't hurt can it?) and accepted a new one. This time I could drop two probes that overlapped, by pure chance. Still no results after 10 scans. _____________________________________________
Kamazani Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.12.15 15:44:00 - [69] oh and one more thing... you all sitting there telling me that people who are fighting against the issue of not being able to easily scan mission runners down with scan probes, are actually there to enforce the old vernicular <kiddie voice> "eve is a pvp game, it's not consensual RAWR!" they are there for one reason and one reason alone... to grief. there's NO point in unwelcomed people being in high sec missions. the money's terrible, the risk isn't that great, but I'm having a good time surviving on my own. so, bugger off. --------------------------- by: GinoShin on 21/11/2006 11:41:44 whats evemon is it like a jamican wiseman?
Jorr Meditir Gallente Halfwits Mordus Angels	Posted - 2006.12.15 15:46:00 - [70] Why not introduce lockable acc-gates into missions, that either require a password (as the agent gives to the player) or some hacking skills (start using them too) to be unlocked. that way, a missionrunner who wants to survive, will scan that gate once in a while (hacking it might take 5 to 30 minutes depending on skills) and as soon as something shows up, he warp away or call in backup. If the missionrunner dont scan the gate, or have the wrong distance set or something, he wont see you hack his gate and then you get your easy gank. And then, ease up the scanning again.
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.15 15:49:00 - [71] Originally by: Kamazani doesn't mean I have to PVP or pirate or grief or anything. all you punks can get off your high horse.... I pay just as much as you do. forcing me to do what I don't want to do and saying <falsetto** voice> yer in the wrong game dear.... isn't going to change anything. I still play this game until I have a personal reason not to. so bite it. Yes, you pay the same as us. For a game that is explicitly PVP orientated**. Complaining about that is like complaining your car can't fly. Guess what: no-one said it would. Anyway, that's wholly off-topic for this thread, so begone. _____________________________________________
Forino Ovoli	Posted - 2006.12.15 15:50:00 - [72] Going back to the OP's intent - probing out mission runners "that are war targets" - that makes a clear distinction. Perhaps there should be an increased chance of finding targets if they are at war with you? While at first glance this may not seem logical, it could certainly be justified. If you are at war with another Corp, one could assume you have more detailed data on the Corp's Order of Battle. That extra information is programmed into the probes, thus allowing them a better chance of locating the enemy while scanning. There are even RL precedents for this technique in the realm of submarine warfare. If one submarine picks up another on sonar, than it may only be able to identify it as an unclassifed submarine. However, if that submarine was one that had been tracked and classifed based on acoustic signatures, they may be able to know exactly which hull number it was. In some cases, there are anecdotes that tracking submarines could tell WHICH crew was on watch based upon the targets operating characteristics. To sum up, as a self-described "carebear PVE mission runner", I support it being very difficult (not impossible) for someone to scan me out while running missions. However, I certainly see the point that war target mission runners should not be able to sustain the war effort with near invulnerability. I think that increasing the chance of finding opposing war targets would be a good compromise solution on this issue.
Kamazani Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.12.15 15:52:00 - [73] Edited by: Kamazani on 15/12/2006 16:02:44 Edited by: Kamazani on 15/12/2006 15:55:31 Edited by: Kamazani on 15/12/2006 15:55:06 Originally by: SN3263827 Originally by: Kamazani doesn't mean I have to PVP or pirate or grief or anything. all you punks can get off your high horse.... I pay just as much as you do. forcing me to do what I don't want to do and saying <falsetto** voice> yer in the wrong game dear.... isn't going to change anything. I still play this game until I have a personal reason not to. so bite it. Yes, you pay the same as us. For a game that is explicitly PVP orientated**. Complaining about that is like complaining your car can't fly. Guess what: no-one said it would. Anyway, that's wholly off-topic for this thread, so begone. well then if that's the case.. why the hell am I still in the game.. hey CCP come ban me.. I dont' want to pvp! I want to use your game as a missioning hub.. Huh? what? you want my 15 bucks, oh okay. I'm aware that there's a lot of pvp involved in this game, but there's also pve aspects, so step off! If it was a totally PVP oriented game, then there wouldnt' be high sec or missions. Have CCP argue otherwise.. <sigh> what's the point? you guys are still going to try to force everyone into not enjoying the game the way they want. so it's moot. --------------------------- by: GinoShin on 21/11/2006 11:41:44 whats evemon is it like a jamican wiseman?
Kamazani Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.12.15 16:12:00 - [74] i was reading that site with the dev's http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=155334&page=2#35 talking about the game. "eve is a primarily pvp game" you failed to mention that they just mean that pvp will balanced before pve. that doesn't mean you can come into my missions and take my mission can or salvage my wrecks or attempt to make me shoot you in high sec. --------------------------- by: GinoShin on 21/11/2006 11:41:44 whats evemon is it like a jamican wiseman?
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.15 16:12:00 - [75] Originally by: SN3263827 Yes, you pay the same as us. For a game that is explicitly PVP orientated. Complaining about that is like complaining your car can't fly. Guess what: no-one said it would. Anyway, that's wholly off-topic for this thread, so begone. You know, by going with that analogy I would have to say 'But my car COULD fly pre-kali!'... Sure it is PvP oriented and I prolly would have quit long ago if it was not. But first there is more to PvP than ganking mission runners (Which is in fact much more aking to PvE than to PvP) and secondly I like both aspects, but doing them serial, not parallel. Now I do believe there should be a chance for a mission to be busted for balances sake, but it must require an effort and give attentive runners a fair warning. And if I had to chose between now and before the nerf, I would definitely pick now beause before the nerf it was breaking the entire game for the mission runners, and now it is only breaking a small aspect for the PvPers (and tbh I don't even consider mission gankers PvPers, they're just gankbears, no better than the suiciders in highsec.) --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Damien Smith ExScape	Posted - 2006.12.15 16:14:00 - [76] I think the whole single probe, easier scanning thing was brought about to allow the general population to experiment in exploration. I think most of us get this, really. Casual players deserve to get involved in probing as much as the vets, and exploration with the old system would admittedly be too hard. Why not simply allow exploration probes to be used in the new, single probe, skillpoints > skills system and leave the 'bears to it, and make recon scanning back into the hard core, real life skill intensive profession it was. Exploration - One probe chance based. Recon - Three probe triangulation (chance, if you really insist) based. Is there anyone at all who would have a problem with that? Exploration would be exactly as it is now. Recon scanning would be exactly as it was pre-kali, only chance based (with realistic chances based on target size and range from probe) and with the new probe sizes (with realistic min/max deviations). This way the pirate probers vs mission runners problem would solve itself. You'd find missions being probed no more or less than they did pre-kali, with the competent probers only going after the most lucrative targets. The way it's gone so far is from a balanced enough ratio of fishes to fishermen to keep fish stocks high, while still feeding the fishermen. Then it went to allowing the fishermen to use nets the size of Germany, boats that travel at the speed of sound and the ability to locate any fish, anywhere at any time. Finally they gave the fishes invisibility, god mode, noclip mode and scuttled the fishermen's boats. All we're asking for is the balance back... ----------- Join channel 'ExScape' or die! (bring pie) I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.15 17:03:00 - [77] Originally by: Sinnbad Mayhem Apology to Wrayeth and Hoshi and all, Your right, the current system needs to be rebalanced. It does seem a tad bit too hard. And in low sec, everyone should be fair game. Dont know what I was thinking when I posted. Got some personal crap to fix, shouldnt have got angry with ya all. /me no more forum posts for me for long time /respect Sometimes RL intrudes on our gameplay whether we want it to or not, and the only thing you can do is roll with the punches. Hope things get better for you. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Malvan Minmatar Legio Immortalis	Posted - 2006.12.15 17:25:00 - [78] Originally by: Kamazani well then if that's the case.. why the hell am I still in the game.. hey CCP come ban me.. I dont' want to pvp! I want to use your game as a missioning hub.. Huh? what? you want my 15 bucks, oh okay. I'm aware that there's a lot of pvp involved in this game, but there's also pve aspects, so step off! If it was a totally PVP oriented game, then there wouldnt' be high sec or missions. Have CCP argue otherwise.. <sigh> what's the point? you guys are still going to try to force everyone into not enjoying the game the way they want. so it's moot. If I am at war with you, I should be able to engage you anywhere in the game, that's what Concord sanctioned wars are for. Why should you be safe from attack by your war targets in a mission when a trader isn't safe from them flying between 1.0 systems? And you arguement for seperation between PvP and PvE is redundant. Originally by: Kamazani If it was a totally PVP oriented game, then there wouldnt' be high sec or missions If you cant see the problem with saying this at the same time as saying you should be safe in missions because the game isn't totally PvP then you don't have the debating or language skills to keep arguing about it. 'A flag that has no nation makes an enemy of the world' - The Golden Apple.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.12.15 21:23:00 - [79] Originally by: Kamazani doesn't mean I have to PVP or pirate or grief or anything. all you punks can get off your high horse.... I pay just as much as you do. forcing me to do what I don't want to do and saying <falsetto** voice> yer in the wrong game dear.... isn't going to change anything. I still play this game until I have a personal reason not to. so bite it. Nobody here is telling you how to play. That would look something like this: Originally by:** Kamazani no.. stay out of my mission. Instead what's happening is people are telling you how they are going to play. That might even involve getting in your way in "your" mission. The choice is still yours how you're going to deal with it. If you want a game where nobody can ever interfere with you, take it up with the Devs. But unless they lose their minds and vision, I forsee much unhappiness with EVE in your future, grasshopper. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Lasati	Posted - 2006.12.16 03:01:00 - [80] Originally by: Blind Picard It seems that is impossible to find a mission runner with the new patch. If they want to sell their loot, you can get em at the gate.
Phrixus Zephyr Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.12.16 03:42:00 - [81] Originally by: Wrayeth Whine. Translation. "Waaaah waaaah i lost my 1 click missioner-find-button. I have a complete inability to see things from an objective point of view and think the fact missioners have to fit almost completely against normal pvp fits to survive, or that people were using it to grief, or that missions rely on a single item unlike belt ratting so hours of work are rendered useless, are completly irrelivent... and that my pvp and only pvp game doesnt have any single player activities like, i dunno, missions for example.." FYI. I dont mission, infact i hate missions, but you sir, are a moron. Damian Smith 4tw. Originally by: Victor Ramirez using it to get the layout of a new system and a quick belt-check is about as practical as using Google Earth to see if your car is still in front of your house.
Blind Picard	Posted - 2006.12.20 13:21:00 - [82] I tryed hard sice new patch was deployed ( at least 6h /day ) to probe mission runners in a 0.0 system but nothing. Better CCP will rename those systems as Jita1, Jita2 , Jita3 .....JitaX.
Blind Picard	Posted - 2006.12.21 12:32:00 - [83] Today i made a gang with my alt wich was running a mission. I warped to my alt raven and i made a safespot near him , under 1AU. After that i leaved gang with my scanner alt and i tried to scan my raven wich as i said it was under 1 au. I tried at least 20 times and nothing. Please Tuxx or another developer , read this and ballance this scanning system, at least in 0.0 systems. Maybe i wrong but where is the risk of a 0.0 system for this mission runners?
Blind Picard	Posted - 2006.12.21 21:00:00 - [84] Strange, strange , strange....After hundreds of scans on a 0.0 system i was in empire in a 0.9 system and at my first scan..surprise, i found 3-4 mission runners. So...how's that possible , because in 0.0 is impossible to find one. Please balance this system. I can't understand why in a high sec system is possible to find a mission runner and in a 0.0 system is IMPOSSIBLE !!! If anyone have an answer, please do it.. Thanks
Sinchue Sin	Posted - 2006.12.22 13:24:00 - [85] Originally by: Wrayeth You can't bubble people in lowsec or highsec. Right now, my alliance primarily concerns itself with Empire wars. As such, our targets generally mission-***** to make ISK. It's impossible to disrupt a mission runner if he has insta-undock bookmarks, now, since he undocks and warps off before you can lock him down, then goes directly to the mission where you cannot probe him. Then, after finishing, he returns to station with warp to zero. The sum effect is that he is completely invulnerable and can ignore the wardec entirely. In order to wage war effectively, you must strike at your opponent's lines of supply as well as his military forces. Without the ability to do the former, your chance of succeeding drops significantly. With mission-runners being completely invulnerable, this is a line of supply that cannot be cut no matter how much effort is poured into it. You could camp the station with 250 ships (assuming you have that many) and it still will not matter; bubbles do not work in Empire, so the opponent can get away with little effort.[/quote Why don't you PvP against PvPers and not PvEers. Thats weak.

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