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KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.19 11:53:00 - [1] Invention was released 3 weeks ago. The new hope. Lots of people had pre brought the Encryption skills. Trained them, and held their breath. What I thought Invention would bring to the table: The average man, could attempt to produce Tech 2 Modules. The BPCs garnered from the process would be very inefficient, thus meaning the BPO owners markeu on thier produce would still be large, but with competition, the market would at last start to see some stabilising and the price fixing (or supply and deman) would start to be eased. On the outset Invention looks like a risky business. With the datacores costing decent amounts of isk, meaning a fair investment into every potential invention attempt. That attempt may not yield a very good BPC, or a BPC at all. But at least it starts to offer corps the ability to produce thier own tech 2. The driver for all Eve life Risk vs Reward.... So tothe problems. The Interfaces. Well the BPCs are uber rare, with very few dropping. Having spoken to someone that has found 2 so far, the amount of hours he has put it is ridiculous. The drop rate needs an increase, and it needs to be also more commmon from low sec, not just alliance owned deep 0.0. But we are promised this is being addressed... roll on the next patch i guess. But now to the current crux point. (have yo noticed we havent even reached the stage where we are building stuff and looking at invention as a process!) Building the BPCs. KIA has procurred several BPCs. And people are throwing these things at us, why? Because they are bloody impossible to build. Let me show you the build reqs for the module BPC: Armour blocks Perfect 20 Computer Chips Perfect 10 Electronic Link Perfect 160 Power Couplings Perfect 50 Spare Parts Perfect 100 350 Components! 350! to build 1 Interface! Sigh.... but it gets worse The Ship BPC Armour blocks Perfect 100 Computer Chips Perfect 50 Electronic Link Perfect 800 Power Couplings Perfect 250 Spare Parts Perfect 500 Holy mother of god on a toadstool... 1700!!!! components. (assuming perfect prod skills) Each one of these components must be "harvested" from hackable cans in cosmos complexes. These cans resapwn, but at a pretty slow rate. A team of 8 people working for 1 WEEK (8 hours a day)! would probably be able to build 1 of each of those interfaces, maybe...... Sooooo Interfaces are worth a week of work for 8 people? Hell no they aren't That same week could produce 50 times the isk your gonna make with an interface... so where does that leave us? It leaves us in a shallow pit, but with very very short legs. I am sure CCP will address this issue, but I cannot see them lowering the reqs for the BPC prod, people that have already made the Interface from the BPC (anyone?) would be very hard done by if they did.... but they still should. Invention as it stands, will be accessible ONLY to the very rich who can buy these Interfaces at the extreme price they will always be (they will not drop in price because of the effort involved in building one) or the very very dedicated. The very very dedicated will be happy with things as they are, they will be involved in a very exclusive market, KIA are 1 of the very very rich, so we will be involved also. But for me personally, I wanted to see invention be the common mans joy. BPCS and Interface production shouldn't be the limiting factor, the Datacores are designed to do that. They are finite and as such will regulate BPC production. I await CCPs comments on the build reqs. Once we have the Interfaces, we can start testing Invention, and hopefully my next thread wont be "Invention:Waste of time and money" (sorry if your tired of reading about this subject, but for me its not going away) KIA EVE Home
Nero Scuro Caldari Murder of Crows E N I G M A	Posted - 2006.12.19 12:02:00 - [2] Edited by: Nero Scuro on 19/12/2006 12:02:47 T2 was never going to be the 'common mans joy'. This was simply another way for those who wanted to get into T2 production to do so with out; a) using the fubard lottery or b) buying a BPO for many billions And remember, interfaces never run out, so however long it takes they will be more common eventually. It's just a matter of time. Plus it's hardly difficult for an alliance to get an interface - using your math of 8 people working 8 hours a day for a week you could say that 16 people would get it done in half the time. 32 people in half the time again. Should be easy for any half-organised alliance to throw the man-power at it, and once you have the interface it'll never leave! ___ The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky...
Phyrr Minmatar The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2006.12.19 12:07:00 - [3] Stop throwing your dummy out of the pram ffs everyday whinge whinge whinge.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.19 12:17:00 - [4] Thanks for the detailed description. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Kastar Chronodynamics	Posted - 2006.12.19 12:26:00 - [5] Eddz is quite correct. The other post is very correct too, be it very impolite. I have no problem with invention having some kind of exclusivity. The problem is that atm it's too exclusive, only for the insanely rich. Second issue I have is that the feeling that was created before release of Kali was that it would be available for a wider mass, correcting some but not all of the prices on certain t2 items. In this form it's not what was put on the table. ----------------------------------------------- Yup, it's great to be Amarr :-/
Dendrin Koljn Minmatar Elite United Corp	Posted - 2006.12.19 12:33:00 - [6] Nice OP, must admit i was hoping it would be more do-able for the masses than it appears it will. Originally by: Nero Scuro .....And remember, interfaces never run out, so however long it takes they will be more common eventually.... There could be a problem here thou, as it takes so much effort to get 1, then i can see it being possibly well over a year before the T2 (very rich) producers stop buying them..(indeed with the low drop rate they may continue to buy up the BPC's to keep on top of the market)....and they filter down to the majority to fight over. I was looking at maybe 3-4 months before i could start inventing small amounts of 'cheap' stuff, but with things the way they are i'm looking at producing BPC's for others to invent with....but even here the market will be extremly small, if not non-existant, for months. And hopefully CCP won't 'tweak' the drops so much (as they did with salvage) they swing invention into a 'everyone and his dog' profession (like ammo, again due to the drop rate)
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.19 12:35:00 - [7] Originally by: Dendrin Koljn There could be a problem here thou, as it takes so much effort to get 1, then i can see it being possibly well over a year before the T2 (very rich) producers stop buying them..(indeed with the low drop rate they may continue to buy up the BPC's to keep on top of the market)....and they filter down to the majority to fight over. Hmm, I've never had much interest in the T2 market, as it's basically an easy-mode, but the opportunity to screw with people by buying up the limited things required for invention and having a monopoly on them too would be fun ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
LightMee	Posted - 2006.12.19 12:37:00 - [8] Wait, you've got several data interface bpc's so far, and you want the drop rate increased?.....
maarud Einherjar Incorporated Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.19 12:37:00 - [9] Bah, I thought the BPC's needed salvage componets to build, not COSMOS components :( Maarud. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member
Helmut 314 Amarr J.H.E.N.R Pure.	Posted - 2006.12.19 12:43:00 - [10] Well written post, KIAEddz. Invention is quite disappointing in its current form. With interfaces so rare and hard to find components for you get the same high threshold as for those who buy tech II bpo and get into the industry that way. If Invention created new things that werent available already, like tech 2 meta items, I think it would be worthwhile. Investing all this effort and isk for very dubious returns doesnt sound like a very alluring prospect. ________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
Madboy Minmatar Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2006.12.19 12:45:00 - [11] Cheers for the detailed reports mate. Invention is something I'd like to get as much information about as possible. - MadBoy
Wotar	Posted - 2006.12.19 12:58:00 - [12] Originally by: Phyrr Stop throwing your dummy out of the pram ffs everyday whinge whinge whinge. absolute *****
Ozzie Asrail FATAL REVELATIONS	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:02:00 - [13] It seems most corps with the sort of dedication\time\organisation to build these interfaces could simply apply themselves for a couple of weeks and buy a BPO or 2 anyway. I don't see how it will help get smaller corps into T2 production or even make a dent in the T2 market at all. -----
KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:03:00 - [14] Originally by: Nero Scuro And remember, interfaces never run out, so however long it takes they will be more common eventually. But beacuse of the time and effort involved in making one, the price will always be very high fo them. This is an undeniable fact, that things taht require a lot of effort to procurr, have inherent value. Originally by: Nero Scuro Plus it's hardly difficult for an alliance to get an interface - using your math of 8 people working 8 hours a day for a week you could say that 16 people would get it done in half the time. 32 people in half the time again. Should be easy for any half-organised alliance to throw the man-power at it, and once you have the interface it'll never leave! The limiting factor isn't the man power, 8 men will be just about the max that can do it, there is only a finite amount of areas to hack the components from. My numbers assume you have a complete races Hackable Cosmos area to yourself..... KIA EVE Home
KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:07:00 - [15] Originally by: Ozzie Asrail It seems most corps with the sort of dedication\time\organisation to build these interfaces could simply apply themselves for a couple of weeks and buy a BPO or 2 anyway. I don't see how it will help get smaller corps into T2 production or even make a dent in the T2 market at all. And here we have the real point. KIA are only now involved in Invention because I have made it a personal goal to see this through, and my corp share in my personal goals. For the amount of man hours we have sepnt exploring, and the amount we will have to spend creating the BPCS and investigating the Invention Process, we could of retired to 0.0 and mined 10's of billions in High End mins..... this is an exercise in financial loss to everyone involved in it right now. We have already thrown billions at it, we will undoubtedly throw many more before i can say we have invented something, here it is... KIA EVE Home
Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:08:00 - [16] Yes its high, its intended to be that way - I'd agree with you if those interfaces were disposable and had to be resupplied, but they're not, so its a one-time grind to get access to a shortcut around invention. Keep it tough imo.
Miss Overlord Gallente Ferrum Pugnus New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:11:00 - [17] CCP dropped the ball - unless they are going t make multiple drops from cosmos plexes t2 invention is not worht the time and paper its programmedo n These posts represent my personal views and not those of my corp or alliance. These do not reflect offical alliance or corp views This is a disclaimer
KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:15:00 - [18] Originally by: Sakura Nihil Yes its high, its intended to be that way - I'd agree with you if those interfaces were disposable and had to be resupplied, but they're not, so its a one-time grind to get access to a shortcut around invention. Keep it tough imo. By making it tough (understatement) to break into invention you do only 2 things. You kill the Datacore market. And you keep the prices of Tech 2 insanely high. As you say, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but this isn't what Invention was touted to be. To say ANYONE can invent, is simply not true. The limiting factors are huge. All your really gonna see is the big boys being involved, or more likely the BPO owners buying up Interfaces and letting them sit n rot.... KIA EVE Home
JimKong II	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:17:00 - [19] Originally by: KIAEddZ Originally by: Sakura Nihil Yes its high, its intended to be that way - I'd agree with you if those interfaces were disposable and had to be resupplied, but they're not, so its a one-time grind to get access to a shortcut around invention. Keep it tough imo. By making it tough (understatement) to break into invention you do only 2 things. You kill the Datacore market. And you keep the prices of Tech 2 insanely high. As you say, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but this isn't what Invention was touted to be. To say ANYONE can invent, is simply not true. The limiting factors are huge. All your really gonna see is the big boys being involved, or more likely the BPO owners buying up Interfaces and letting them sit n rot.... Wrong, anyone can invent, you just have to be dedicated to it.
KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:18:00 - [20] Originally by: LightMee Wait, you've got several data interface bpc's so far, and you want the drop rate increased?..... We have searched far n wide for these. Over 1000 man hours went into Exploration last week alone, with no real returns. We have given into Buying them from people selling htem at extraordinary prices, or creating partnership deals with BPC owners for help with producing the Interfaces. They need to be more accessible. Not 1 on every corner, but the drop rate and areas of dropping needs to be "tweaked" CCP are looking at it apparently. KIA EVE Home
KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:19:00 - [21] Originally by: JimKong II Wrong, anyone can invent, you just have to be dedicated to it. Anyone can climb mount everest, or fly to the moon also. But the limiting factors are enough to dissuade the masses, thus the moon and mount everest are still barren and their resources unused..... KIA EVE Home
TigCobra Battlestars Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:37:00 - [22] /signed
Nero Scuro Caldari Murder of Crows E N I G M A	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:39:00 - [23] My point is that I don't think invention was intended as a shortcut to producing T2. It was just another way of getting into what is very much an 'end-game' area. T2 production should NEVER be easy, it would devalue T2 too much (with some notable exceptions that could use some devaluing, cough HACs and cloaks). CCP saw it this way - people were whining because they wanted to produce T2 stuff. They had masses of RP building up but no way to use it except to hope to get lucky. Also if you wanted to start producing, just for example, Deimos' then you couldn't because no matter how much ISK you had nobody is selling the BPO. There are only a few T2 BPOs selling at any one time and people pretty much are forced to take what is on offer if they want in on T2 production. CCP offer you an alternative. You can stick with the lottery, or with hoping that Deimos BPO turns up for sale and your pockets are deep enough, or you can put in a little (ok a lot) of hard work and nab yourself an interface. No dealing with a fickle lottery or an even more fickle WTS forum. The interface is a neccessity because otherwise people would just start up research alts and rack in RP for datacores. The T2 market would crash. I still think that invention was never intended as an easy means of getting into the T2 market, just another alternative. ___ The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky...
Glaren Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:45:00 - [24] It seems to me that they need to put components for the interfaces into the loot table for these exploration sites. As it stands now, CCP setup is going to lead to more farming of static complexes which seems to me be completely contradictory to the 'exploration' philosophy. I'm not saying remove them from COSMOS constellations but expand these parts to the exploration sites as well. Anyway, keep it up KIAEddz! This is truly a service to the eve community. Besides the more you hunt for interfaces the less you hunt me.
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:47:00 - [25] Nero, that's just bs. Pretty sure you own a tech 2 bpo.
maarud Einherjar Incorporated Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:51:00 - [26] Originally by: Nero Scuro My point is that I don't think invention was intended as a shortcut to producing T2. It was just another way of getting into what is very much an 'end-game' area. T2 production should NEVER be easy, it would devalue T2 too much (with some notable exceptions that could use some devaluing, cough HACs and cloaks). CCP saw it this way - people were whining because they wanted to produce T2 stuff. They had masses of RP building up but no way to use it except to hope to get lucky. Also if you wanted to start producing, just for example, Deimos' then you couldn't because no matter how much ISK you had nobody is selling the BPO. There are only a few T2 BPOs selling at any one time and people pretty much are forced to take what is on offer if they want in on T2 production. CCP offer you an alternative. You can stick with the lottery, or with hoping that Deimos BPO turns up for sale and your pockets are deep enough, or you can put in a little (ok a lot) of hard work and nab yourself an interface. No dealing with a fickle lottery or an even more fickle WTS forum. The interface is a neccessity because otherwise people would just start up research alts and rack in RP for datacores. The T2 market would crash. I still think that invention was never intended as an easy means of getting into the T2 market, just another alternative. No, invention, Aka, reverse engineering was so everybody could get into invention, to quote oveur (I don't know how many times I going to quote this to ppl get the picture) "Perhaps its about time T2 became the norm". Most people can use a T2 item of some kind in eve. The first T2 item I could use was a T2 cap recharger, I was so excited... till I saw the price tag of 25-30mil. The demand for T2 is way more than the current holders of the BPO's can supply at, hence the prices. Invetion was suppose to mean that the average man, could get into T2, a now common market (as in most people are buying it) and a increased production and effort factor. The current effort factor so far for KIA is 3 weeks... and nothing to show for it. So far invention sucks balls. Maarud. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member
Vasiliyan PAX Interstellar Services Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:51:00 - [27] I think this was mostly an issue of catastrophically bad expectation management. Nobody complained that outposts or Titans were too expensive when they were introduced. Why? Because it was obvious that they were going to be expensive, things that a whole alliance could benefit from, that would require a huge investment and provide permanent benefits. People believed that Invention was going to be widely available to the individual researcher, and nobody stepped in to correct this. That's the root of the problem. As it is, it looks like in a few months you might be able to get a module data interface for about the cost of a large POS, which isn't totally unattainable but still far from the common pilot. Note that, because there were no interfaces on the test server, Invention is untested...
JimKong II	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:00:00 - [28] Originally by: maarud Originally by: Nero Scuro My point is that I don't think invention was intended as a shortcut to producing T2. It was just another way of getting into what is very much an 'end-game' area. T2 production should NEVER be easy, it would devalue T2 too much (with some notable exceptions that could use some devaluing, cough HACs and cloaks). CCP saw it this way - people were whining because they wanted to produce T2 stuff. They had masses of RP building up but no way to use it except to hope to get lucky. Also if you wanted to start producing, just for example, Deimos' then you couldn't because no matter how much ISK you had nobody is selling the BPO. There are only a few T2 BPOs selling at any one time and people pretty much are forced to take what is on offer if they want in on T2 production. CCP offer you an alternative. You can stick with the lottery, or with hoping that Deimos BPO turns up for sale and your pockets are deep enough, or you can put in a little (ok a lot) of hard work and nab yourself an interface. No dealing with a fickle lottery or an even more fickle WTS forum. The interface is a neccessity because otherwise people would just start up research alts and rack in RP for datacores. The T2 market would crash. I still think that invention was never intended as an easy means of getting into the T2 market, just another alternative. No, invention, Aka, reverse engineering was so everybody could get into invention, to quote oveur (I don't know how many times I going to quote this to ppl get the picture) "Perhaps its about time T2 became the norm". Most people can use a T2 item of some kind in eve. The first T2 item I could use was a T2 cap recharger, I was so excited... till I saw the price tag of 25-30mil. The demand for T2 is way more than the current holders of the BPO's can supply at, hence the prices. Invetion was suppose to mean that the average man, could get into T2, a now common market (as in most people are buying it) and a increased production and effort factor. The current effort factor so far for KIA is 3 weeks... and nothing to show for it. So far invention sucks balls. Oveur never said that, hammer did.
maarud Einherjar Incorporated Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:02:00 - [29] Originally by: JimKong II Oveur never said that, hammer did. Fair enough... does it change anything? Maarud. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member
JimKong II	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:03:00 - [30] Originally by: maarud Originally by: JimKong II Oveur never said that, hammer did. Fair enough... does it change anything? Devs have been known to say one thing, but do completely different, just because one guy said that, it doesn't make it fact. If they wanted the average man doing invention they wouldn't have made this huge process you have to go through to get started, obviously they want invention to be difficult.

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