Originally by: Nero Scuro

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.....And remember, interfaces never run out, so however long it takes they will be more common eventually....

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Originally by: Dendrin Koljn

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There could be a problem here thou, as it takes so much effort to get 1, then i can see it being possibly well over a year before the T2 (very rich) producers stop buying them..(indeed with the low drop rate they may continue to buy up the BPC's to keep on top of the market)....and they filter down to the majority to fight over.

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Originally by: Phyrr

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Stop throwing your dummy out of the pram ffs everyday whinge whinge whinge.

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

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And remember, interfaces never run out, so however long it takes they will be more common eventually.

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

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Plus it's hardly difficult for an alliance to get an interface - using your math of 8 people working 8 hours a day for a week you could say that 16 people would get it done in half the time. 32 people in half the time again. Should be easy for any half-organised alliance to throw the man-power at it, and once you have the interface it'll never leave!

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Originally by: Ozzie Asrail

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It seems most corps with the sort of dedication\time\organisation to build these interfaces could simply apply themselves for a couple of weeks and buy a BPO or 2 anyway.

I don't see how it will help get smaller corps into T2 production or even make a dent in the T2 market at all.

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Originally by: Sakura Nihil

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Yes its high, its intended to be that way - I'd agree with you if those interfaces were disposable and had to be resupplied, but they're not, so its a one-time grind to get access to a shortcut around invention.

Keep it tough imo.

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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Originally by: Sakura Nihil

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Yes its high, its intended to be that way - I'd agree with you if those interfaces were disposable and had to be resupplied, but they're not, so its a one-time grind to get access to a shortcut around invention.

Keep it tough imo.

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By making it tough (understatement) to break into invention you do only 2 things.

You kill the Datacore market. And you keep the prices of Tech 2 insanely high.

As you say, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but this isn't what Invention was touted to be.

To say ANYONE can invent, is simply not true. The limiting factors are huge. All your really gonna see is the big boys being involved, or more likely the BPO owners buying up Interfaces and letting them sit n rot....

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Originally by: LightMee

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Wait, you've got several data interface bpc's so far, and you want the drop rate increased?.....

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Originally by: JimKong II

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Wrong, anyone can invent, you just have to be dedicated to it.

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

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My point is that I don't think invention was intended as a shortcut to producing T2. It was just another way of getting into what is very much an 'end-game' area. T2 production should NEVER be easy, it would devalue T2 too much (with some notable exceptions that could use some devaluing, *cough* HACs and cloaks).

CCP saw it this way - people were whining because they wanted to produce T2 stuff. They had masses of RP building up but no way to use it except to hope to get lucky. Also if you wanted to start producing, just for example, Deimos' then you couldn't because no matter how much ISK you had nobody is selling the BPO. There are only a few T2 BPOs selling at any one time and people pretty much are forced to take what is on offer if they want in on T2 production.

CCP offer you an alternative. You can stick with the lottery, or with hoping that Deimos BPO turns up for sale and your pockets are deep enough, or you can put in a little (ok a lot) of hard work and nab yourself an interface. No dealing with a fickle lottery or an even more fickle WTS forum.

The interface is a neccessity because otherwise people would just start up research alts and rack in RP for datacores. The T2 market would crash.

I still think that invention was never intended as an easy means of getting into the T2 market, just another alternative.

---

Originally by: maarud

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

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My point is that I don't think invention was intended as a shortcut to producing T2. It was just another way of getting into what is very much an 'end-game' area. T2 production should NEVER be easy, it would devalue T2 too much (with some notable exceptions that could use some devaluing, *cough* HACs and cloaks).

CCP saw it this way - people were whining because they wanted to produce T2 stuff. They had masses of RP building up but no way to use it except to hope to get lucky. Also if you wanted to start producing, just for example, Deimos' then you couldn't because no matter how much ISK you had nobody is selling the BPO. There are only a few T2 BPOs selling at any one time and people pretty much are forced to take what is on offer if they want in on T2 production.

CCP offer you an alternative. You can stick with the lottery, or with hoping that Deimos BPO turns up for sale and your pockets are deep enough, or you can put in a little (ok a lot) of hard work and nab yourself an interface. No dealing with a fickle lottery or an even more fickle WTS forum.

The interface is a neccessity because otherwise people would just start up research alts and rack in RP for datacores. The T2 market would crash.

I still think that invention was never intended as an easy means of getting into the T2 market, just another alternative.

---

No, invention, Aka, reverse engineering was so everybody could get into invention, to quote oveur (I don't know how many times I going to quote this to ppl get the picture) "Perhaps its about time T2 became the norm".

Most people can use a T2 item of some kind in eve. The first T2 item I could use was a T2 cap recharger, I was so excited... till I saw the price tag of 25-30mil.

The demand for T2 is way more than the current holders of the BPO's can supply at, hence the prices.

Invetion was suppose to mean that the average man, could get into T2, a now common market (as in most people are buying it) and a increased production and effort factor.

The current effort factor so far for KIA is 3 weeks... and nothing to show for it.

So far invention sucks balls.

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Originally by: JimKong II

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Oveur never said that, hammer did.

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Originally by: maarud

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Originally by: JimKong II

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Oveur never said that, hammer did.

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Fair enough... does it change anything?

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Originally by: JimKong II

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Originally by: maarud

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Originally by: JimKong II

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Oveur never said that, hammer did.

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Fair enough... does it change anything?

---

Devs have been known to say one thing, but do completely different, just because one guy said that, it doesn't make it fact. If they wanted the average man doing invention they wouldn't have made this huge process you have to go through to get started, obviously they want invention to be difficult.

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Originally by: maarud

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No, invention, Aka, reverse engineering was so everybody could get into invention, to quote oveur (I don't know how many times I going to quote this to ppl get the picture) "Perhaps its about time T2 became the norm".

Most people can use a T2 item of some kind in eve. The first T2 item I could use was a T2 cap recharger, I was so excited... till I saw the price tag of 25-30mil.

The demand for T2 is way more than the current holders of the BPO's can supply at, hence the prices.

Invetion was suppose to mean that the average man, could get into T2, a now common market (as in most people are buying it) and a increased production and effort factor.

The current effort factor so far for KIA is 3 weeks... and nothing to show for it.

So far invention sucks balls.

---

Originally by: Vasiliyan

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I think this was mostly an issue of catastrophically bad expectation management.

Nobody complained that outposts or Titans were too expensive when they were introduced. Why? Because it was obvious that they were going to be expensive, things that a whole alliance could benefit from, that would require a huge investment and provide permanent benefits.

People believed that Invention was going to be widely available to the individual researcher, and nobody stepped in to correct this. That's the root of the problem. As it is, it looks like in a few months you might be able to get a module data interface for about the cost of a large POS, which isn't totally unattainable but still far from the common pilot.

Note that, because there were no interfaces on the test server, Invention is untested...

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Originally by: Ishmael Hansen

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They want to keep BoB/MC hegemony. Have you ever saw bob dropping tech 1? afaik they only miss the cerb bpo. (I'm counting large guns, hac, command, etc)

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Originally by: Ishmael Hansen

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Nero, that's just bs. Pretty sure you own a tech 2 bpo.

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Originally by: Vasiliyan

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I think this was mostly an issue of catastrophically bad expectation management.

People believed that Invention was going to be widely available to the individual researcher

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

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Why would they make T2 production something the average player could do?

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Originally by: JimKong II

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Originally by: maarud

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Originally by: JimKong II

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Oveur never said that, hammer did.

---

Fair enough... does it change anything?

---

Devs have been known to say one thing, but do completely different, just because one guy said that, it doesn't make it fact. If they wanted the average man doing invention they wouldn't have made this huge process you have to go through to get started, obviously they want invention to be difficult.

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Originally by: JimKong II

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If they wanted the average man doing invention they wouldn't have made this huge process you have to go through to get started, obviously they want invention to be difficult.

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Originally by: Yllse

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Originally by: JimKong II

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If they wanted the average man doing invention they wouldn't have made this huge process you have to go through to get started, obviously they want invention to be difficult.

---

If they didn't want invention to be possible for the "average" person, then why, oh why, did they tout it as an alternative to the lottery for people who have invested time and isk in R&D agents?

As it stands now, it isn't difficult for the average person, it is impossible, still leaving any chance of making T2 items to the very rich and those with large groups backing them rather allowing any access to small time producers and researchers.

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Originally by: Jita TradeAlt

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

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Why would they make T2 production something the average player could do?

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Are you functionally retarded? This thread is not about how it's a bit hard and unpleasant to get into T2 production via invention, this is about how it's finanically completely unviable to do so at all. And no, even if the datainterfaces were easily produceable then T2 would still cost many times more than T1 most of the time simply because T2 is expensive and time consuming to make thanks to the materials needed.

To whoever said Nero has a T2 bpo then I can tell you, he does not. He also does not have any idea what he's talking about.

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

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Originally by: maarud

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No, invention, Aka, reverse engineering was so everybody could get into invention, to quote oveur (I don't know how many times I going to quote this to ppl get the picture) "Perhaps its about time T2 became the norm".

Most people can use a T2 item of some kind in eve. The first T2 item I could use was a T2 cap recharger, I was so excited... till I saw the price tag of 25-30mil.

The demand for T2 is way more than the current holders of the BPO's can supply at, hence the prices.

Invetion was suppose to mean that the average man, could get into T2, a now common market (as in most people are buying it) and a increased production and effort factor.

The current effort factor so far for KIA is 3 weeks... and nothing to show for it.

So far invention sucks balls.

---

Why would they make T2 production something the average player could do? That'd totally devalue it. Skillpoints would suddenly become the be all and end all of PvP, because with the exception of faction gear everyone could always afford to use the best equipment all the time.

As it stands, putting in training time into using T2 stuff isn't enough. You have to have the guts to use something you could lose. Make T2 cheap and watch as everyone flys command ships everywhere and anyone who hasn't trained up to fly them - tough. You're just forced to wait as a newb until you can fly them. And that really would suck balls.

Originally by: Vasiliyan

---

I think this was mostly an issue of catastrophically bad expectation management.

Nobody complained that outposts or Titans were too expensive when they were introduced. Why? Because it was obvious that they were going to be expensive, things that a whole alliance could benefit from, that would require a huge investment and provide permanent benefits.

People believed that Invention was going to be widely available to the individual researcher, and nobody stepped in to correct this. That's the root of the problem. As it is, it looks like in a few months you might be able to get a module data interface for about the cost of a large POS, which isn't totally unattainable but still far from the common pilot.

Note that, because there were no interfaces on the test server, Invention is untested...

---

This man gets a cookie.

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

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The 'average' person just means anyone not particularily invested in T2 production. Anyone can get an RP agent, it doesn't mean you've really put any time and effort into tryin to get into the T2 market.

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Originally by: maarud

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To make it easier to understand.

I can

A). Spend a week ratting/mission running/whatever and buy a T2 setup for my megathron + spares.

B) At the current rate things are looking, spend 8-16 weeks inventin a T2 setup for my megathron + spares.

That is very stupid and makes it totally worthless.

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

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Ok, just so you know for future reference I don't generally make a habit of responding to posts that;

a) are posted by alts

b) substitute reasoned debate with personal attacks and insults

c) will probably get deleted by mods anyway

d) are just generally wrong

kthxbye

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Originally by: maarud

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Just getting a R&D agent doesn't gurantee that you are going to get into the T2 BPO exclusive members club, you've got to sell your soul to the devil too and that isn't even sometimes enough, cause you have to content with 577452394759287598273459723493 other plays that sold their soul too.

Invention is suppose to be what the T2 lottery was suppose to be, getting into T2 by working for it.

Currently thats not possible.

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

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Originally by: maarud

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To make it easier to understand.

I can

A). Spend a week ratting/mission running/whatever and buy a T2 setup for my megathron + spares.

B) At the current rate things are looking, spend 8-16 weeks inventin a T2 setup for my megathron + spares.

That is very stupid and makes it totally worthless.

---

I think that's exactly the point. T2 is NOT supposed to be something you idly build for yourself and mates. It's high-end market stuff that should require a lot of effort and dedication, and should never be possible solo or without investing time into it.

Or am I to take it you want to spend a week of ratting/mission running/whatever in order to build a Vulture? Cause then as I already said, everyone would be flying them.

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

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I think that's exactly the point. T2 is NOT supposed to be something you idly build for yourself and mates. It's high-end market stuff that should require a lot of effort and dedication, and should never be possible solo or without investing time into it.

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Originally by: Ishmael Hansen

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Cos as it stands you only have to have guts to fly expensive stuff if you not in BoB/MC, cos they be flying 30m hacs and caring less of loosing it. How's that for fairness.

Tech 2 is only expensive if you not producing it. They can fly all the tech 2 stuff they want at prodution prices. so STFU already.

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Originally by: Jita TradeAlt

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I WAS NOT LOOKING FOR YOUR RESPONSE YOUR OPINION OR ANYTHING ELSE, I WAS TELLING YOU THAT YOU WERE WRONG AND SHOULD GET OUT.

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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Nero

You are missing a very valid point.

producing Tech 2 via Invention, will be very very inefficient, meaning that it will still cost around 100 million for a Hac for example, in pure build costs. (we'll know more once we can test build lol)

The market bottom isnt going to "fall out" because of invention, but it will break the Tech 2 Owners hold over prices etc.

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Originally by: Ishmael Hansen

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I think I'm gonna get banned, but... OMFG can you be more clueless?

"T2 is NOT supposed to be something you idly build for yourself and mates" cos that will be VERY DIFERENT from the TECH 2 OWNERS, ONLY THEY DESERVE THE RIGHT TO DO IT AS THEY "RANDOMLY" WON ALL THE BPOS. And have invested huge amounts of hard wotk into it. Can you just die?

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

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Ok, I was mostly arguing about the cost of getting an interface, not how efficient (or inefficient) actually building the stuff is once you have one (which I'm ignorant on atm).

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Originally by: maarud

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Personally, I want a dev blog now saying, "hrrmm, we messed up with invention, we'll be changing it" or "invetion is fine, you guys are just going about it the wrong way, here's a couple pointers".

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

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Originally by: Ishmael Hansen

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Cos as it stands you only have to have guts to fly expensive stuff if you not in BoB/MC, cos they be flying 30m hacs and caring less of loosing it. How's that for fairness.

Tech 2 is only expensive if you not producing it. They can fly all the tech 2 stuff they want at prodution prices. so STFU already.

---

And I'm saying that BoB/MC DO fly T1 things, and you haven't flown against them very often if you think they fly HACs like they're worth nothing.

Also, just because you tell me to STFU doesn't mean I'll actually do it, it just makes you seem like an angry, angry little person, m'kay?

Originally by: Jita TradeAlt

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I WAS NOT LOOKING FOR YOUR RESPONSE YOUR OPINION OR ANYTHING ELSE, I WAS TELLING YOU THAT YOU WERE WRONG AND SHOULD GET OUT.

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Ok ok, I said I wouldn't respond to you anymore but that was too funny! I should get out, eh? Get out of where? What does that even mean? We're on a forum!

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Originally by: Phyrr

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look im not rich or lucky, but you seem to be missing the point here. Invention will take time. Exploring will take time. I really hope CCP doesn't cave into your whining and dumbs this new content down.

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

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I'm ignorant

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

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Ok, I was mostly arguing about the cost of getting an interface, not how efficient (or inefficient) actually building the stuff is once you have one (which I'm ignorant on atm).

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I dont htink you are only ignorant on that matter Nero.

I honestly feel you have little to NO idea how much effort is required to get this Interface.

i would say around 400-600 man hours ish.....

Are you telling me thats a fair price for the right to even try Invention?

I think you are sat not caring about invention, because its not something you wish to do, your attitude would be very different if you were charged with getting an INterface.

At the moment Inventing is only something the rich or the very large can do, for the average corp, its way beyond what they could realitically commit to any venture.

At the moment Tech 2 BPO owners have the win button, and Invention does not offer even a share of that win button to the people of Eve.... thats not what CCP touted at all.

---

Originally by: Phyrr

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look im not rich or lucky, but you seem to be missing the point here. Invention will take time. Exploring will take time. I really hope CCP doesn't cave into your whining and dumbs this new content down.

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Originally by: Ishmael Hansen

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My angry not directed at you, you doing your tech 2 lobby thing, can't blame you. If I owned a few bpo's I was prolly doing the same, maybe not.

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

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Look at it this way - anything that is possible for an alliance to do is hard for an average corp. Anything that is possible for an average corp to do is easy for an alliance. CCP chose the former, not wanting EVE to be flooded with alliance-made interfaces and then potentially crashing the T2 market. Which would be bad.

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Originally by: Jita TradeAlt

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

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I'm ignorant

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Well thank god you admit defeat, discussion over.

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Originally by: Phyrr

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you know what screw it, I was gonna keep it to myself. I need to point out something you all seem to be missing. Check the typhoon BPO real careful now and you will see what invention really means, it's not for plugging the t2 market gap unless you really wanna. T2 Typhoon anyone? Hurricane variant? Now pls see the light, I'm 4 months old ffs im loving this exploration so far.

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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PLease read this, its gonna save a LOT of pointless argument.

IF INTERFACES WERE PURCHASABLE ON THE MARKET, IT STILL WOULDNT CRASH THE TECH 2 MARKET!

Datacore supplies (the consumable) would see to this, and of course the fact that the modules made from the BPCs created would cost 5+ times the amount of isk to produce. They are the balancer, they are a finite supply, and as such they would restrict naturally the inventing industry. Interfaces just stop people getting involved at all.

Please read this and swallow it before replying.

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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Originally by: Phyrr

---

you know what screw it, I was gonna keep it to myself. I need to point out something you all seem to be missing. Check the typhoon BPO real careful now and you will see what invention really means, it's not for plugging the t2 market gap unless you really wanna. T2 Typhoon anyone? Hurricane variant? Now pls see the light, I'm 4 months old ffs im loving this exploration so far.

---

you are 4 months old, and have no to little understanding of Eve.

You are ONLY thinking of yourself, you hope taht your joy of exploration is rewarded with huge financial gains, and dont want any change potentially effecting that. Your selfish and set minded, and your "whine" arguments show you to be of little or no capacity for looking at the larger picture of anything.

Not often i come down on someone for being an idiot, but god damn you deserve it.

You are whats wrong with Eve, just get out of this topic and go try and make your isk, "you're all right jack"

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

---

PLease read this, its gonna save a LOT of pointless argument.

IF INTERFACES WERE PURCHASABLE ON THE MARKET, IT STILL WOULDNT CRASH THE TECH 2 MARKET!

Datacore supplies (the consumable) would see to this, and of course the fact that the modules made from the BPCs created would cost 5+ times the amount of isk to produce. They are the balancer, they are a finite supply, and as such they would restrict naturally the inventing industry. Interfaces just stop people getting involved at all.

Please read this and swallow it before replying.

---

There are people out there who have been churning out RP with multiple accounts each with multiple RP agents for nearly 2 years now. If they thought they could turn that RP into T2 ships and modules with only a little effort (as would be the case without interfaces) they would, even if doing so at a reduced profit.

Even if it didn't crash the T2 market it would still make T2 production a no-brainer that everyone and his dog could do. Fly to Jita > buy components > get datacores > invent yourself up a BPC with little to no effort involved. What would be the point in specialising in T2 production if that were the case?

---

Originally by: Nero Scuro

---

Originally by: KIAEddZ

---

PLease read this, its gonna save a LOT of pointless argument.

IF INTERFACES WERE PURCHASABLE ON THE MARKET, IT STILL WOULDNT CRASH THE TECH 2 MARKET!

Datacore supplies (the consumable) would see to this, and of course the fact that the modules made from the BPCs created would cost 5+ times the amount of isk to produce. They are the balancer, they are a finite supply, and as such they would restrict naturally the inventing industry. Interfaces just stop people getting involved at all.

Please read this and swallow it before replying.

---

There are people out there who have been churning out RP with multiple accounts each with multiple RP agents for nearly 2 years now. If they thought they could turn that RP into T2 ships and modules with only a little effort (as would be the case without interfaces) they would, even if doing so at a reduced profit.

Even if it didn't crash the T2 market it would still make T2 production a no-brainer that everyone and his dog could do. Fly to Jita > buy components > get datacores > invent yourself up a BPC with little to no effort involved. What would be the point in specialising in T2 production if that were the case?

---

Originally by: Phyrr

---

Erm thanks for your elitist garbage response. I understand eve fine thnx. The elitist crap is what i think is whats wrong with eve. You sir need a new game, one that requires little to no effort. If i'm an idiot i fail to see how? Apparently to you a difference of opinion to yours is out of the question.
Being called an idiot by a whiner has little to no effect on me tbh. Call me what you like. Your frustraed not me. Don't think you can comment on who and what i'm about based on a few posts in one thread on the forums.

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Originally by: Phyrr

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Stop throwing your dummy out of the pram ffs everyday whinge whinge whinge.

---

Originally by: KIAEddZ

---

Originally by: Phyrr

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Erm thanks for your elitist garbage response. I understand eve fine thnx. The elitist crap is what i think is whats wrong with eve. You sir need a new game, one that requires little to no effort. If i'm an idiot i fail to see how? Apparently to you a difference of opinion to yours is out of the question.
Being called an idiot by a whiner has little to no effect on me tbh. Call me what you like. Your frustraed not me. Don't think you can comment on who and what i'm about based on a few posts in one thread on the forums.

---

And you expect any respect with posts like your first one in this thread. You paint the picture of you, no one else.

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Originally by: Phyrr

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look im not rich or lucky, but you seem to be missing the point here. Invention will take time. Exploring will take time. I really hope CCP doesn't cave into your whining and dumbs this new content down.

---

Originally by: Kirjava

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

---

Originally by: KIAEddZ

---

PLease read this, its gonna save a LOT of pointless argument.

IF INTERFACES WERE PURCHASABLE ON THE MARKET, IT STILL WOULDNT CRASH THE TECH 2 MARKET!

Datacore supplies (the consumable) would see to this, and of course the fact that the modules made from the BPCs created would cost 5+ times the amount of isk to produce. They are the balancer, they are a finite supply, and as such they would restrict naturally the inventing industry. Interfaces just stop people getting involved at all.

Please read this and swallow it before replying.

---

There are people out there who have been churning out RP with multiple accounts each with multiple RP agents for nearly 2 years now. If they thought they could turn that RP into T2 ships and modules with only a little effort (as would be the case without interfaces) they would, even if doing so at a reduced profit.

Even if it didn't crash the T2 market it would still make T2 production a no-brainer that everyone and his dog could do. Fly to Jita > buy components > get datacores > invent yourself up a BPC with little to no effort involved. What would be the point in specialising in T2 production if that were the case?

---

Sir, you said you did T1 production, and as such you will know that you can
1)buy minerals in jita (buy datacores)
2)build ship (invent bpc)
3)build bpc with T1 ship and bpc, having usin the morphite and extra materials u built earlier.

Construction is in reality a no brainer, thers just more of it in T2.

---

Originally by: Ishmael Hansen

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Originally by: Phyrr

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look im not rich or lucky, but you seem to be missing the point here. Invention will take time. Exploring will take time. I really hope CCP doesn't cave into your whining and dumbs this new content down.

---

That would be true if invention ended up giving bpo's, atm it's a chance based bpc if you're lucky.


No one will bother waste 3 months to "invent" a 5 run bpc of heavy missile launcher 2. You can buy them with 1 day of ratting. You'll just have to pay 10m each, which is omfg overpriced. Either way isk ends up in the hands of tech 2 owners.

So what's your point?

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Originally by: maarud

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You can't just "get datacores", there is a limit on how much you can buy from a agent in 1 day. Add, to that 1 datacore costs 1500 RP from a agent and you need 16, equating to 24k RP to make 1 HAC BPC.

That 24k rp is more than a months worth. Now, thats alot of RP.

You were suppose to be able to get datacores from exploration too, but I think they are about as rare as the interfaces.

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Originally by: Phyrr

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scroll up to see what i said about BPO's
Invention will allow you to invent things that don't exist yet. check the BPO's on the market for yourself.

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

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Originally by: maarud

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You can't just "get datacores", there is a limit on how much you can buy from a agent in 1 day. Add, to that 1 datacore costs 1500 RP from a agent and you need 16, equating to 24k RP to make 1 HAC BPC.

That 24k rp is more than a months worth. Now, thats alot of RP.

You were suppose to be able to get datacores from exploration too, but I think they are about as rare as the interfaces.

---

Yes, but datacores are still essentially 'free'. It might limit the amount you can build each month but they don't deduct anything from your eventual earnings.

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Originally by: Phyrr

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Originally by: Ishmael Hansen

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Originally by: Phyrr

---

look im not rich or lucky, but you seem to be missing the point here. Invention will take time. Exploring will take time. I really hope CCP doesn't cave into your whining and dumbs this new content down.

---

That would be true if invention ended up giving bpo's, atm it's a chance based bpc if you're lucky.


No one will bother waste 3 months to "invent" a 5 run bpc of heavy missile launcher 2. You can buy them with 1 day of ratting. You'll just have to pay 10m each, which is omfg overpriced. Either way isk ends up in the hands of tech 2 owners.

So what's your point?

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scroll up to see what i said about BPO's
Invention will allow you to invent things that don't exist yet. check the BPO's on the market for yourself.

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

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Originally by: Vasiliyan

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I think this was mostly an issue of catastrophically bad expectation management.

---

This man gets a cookie.

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

---

But making 1 bpc or 2-4 hacs (i'm using hacs as they are potentially the most profiable, modules would produce less reward) a month....... for the investment of 400-600 hours.....

Cmon man, your still not making any sense.

---

Originally by: Vasiliyan

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

---

Originally by: Vasiliyan

---

I think this was mostly an issue of catastrophically bad expectation management.

---

This man gets a cookie.

---

\o/

I still don't understand why people think a lottery with huge prizes is so hugely unfair. At least with the lottery it's obvious what the rules are in advance. (Leaving aside the paranoid suggestion that BoB are Dev favourites)

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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No we do know.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO INVENT TECH 2 BATTLESHIPS.

The devs have stated this more than once. You cannot invent anything that isnt seeded.

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Originally by: Phyrr

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doesn't change the fact that the invention tabs are there and that this is Part 1 of Kali

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Originally by: Ishmael Hansen

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Haha, been researching mechanical engineering for 2 years now and have enough rp's to buy 16 datacores, enough for 2 tries. Can get more isk out of a civ mining laser in an ibis in that time. Have you been playing the same game as I?

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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Originally by: Phyrr

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doesn't change the fact that the invention tabs are there and that this is Part 1 of Kali

---

Your point?

---

Quote:

---

Think about the people that did fight you fairly. Think.... that were honorable and helped you out in times of need. Those are the real heroes of EVE.

---

Originally by: KIAEddZ

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...the amount of hours he has put it is ridiculous. The drop rate needs an increase, and it needs to be also more commmon from low sec, not just alliance owned deep 0.0....

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

---

Originally by: maarud

---

You can't just "get datacores", there is a limit on how much you can buy from a agent in 1 day. Add, to that 1 datacore costs 1500 RP from a agent and you need 16, equating to 24k RP to make 1 HAC BPC.

That 24k rp is more than a months worth. Now, thats alot of RP.

You were suppose to be able to get datacores from exploration too, but I think they are about as rare as the interfaces.

---

Yes, but datacores are still essentially 'free'. It might limit the amount you can build each month but they don't deduct anything from your eventual earnings.

---

Originally by: Nero Scuro

---

Originally by: Ishmael Hansen

---

Haha, been researching mechanical engineering for 2 years now and have enough rp's to buy 16 datacores, enough for 2 tries. Can get more isk out of a civ mining laser in an ibis in that time. Have you been playing the same game as I?

---

Then you must have the suckiest RP agent ever. I got my first RP agent on monday and have 700rp already. And I only have one. On average most people have 2 accounts, with a possible 4 agents on each one, each producing on average 100 rp (so that's 800 rp a day) if they only stick to level 3 agents and don't train their chosen field up past 3. That's enough for a datacore every 2 days.

---

Originally by: Nero Scuro

---

Even if it didn't crash the T2 market it would still make T2 production a no-brainer that everyone and his dog could do. Fly to Jita > buy components > get datacores > invent yourself up a BPC with little to no effort involved. What would be the point in specialising in T2 production if that were the case?

---

Originally by: Phyrr

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I give up. CCP give everyone in the game all the stuff they need to be Uber so everyone can happy having the same **** as everyone else. Free BPC's of interfaces and the parts to build them pls. The new WoW \o/

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Originally by: maarud

---

Well they do, cause time is money. Time doing nothing is money wasted. T2 BPO producers don't have this limitation, average joe does. So while T2 BPOs can produce as much as the BPO allows them to per hour, invention is bottle necked on the amount of RP you generate per day.

Lets try do a pro's vs con's or a just a look at the limitations on invention over a T2 BPO.

T2 BPO
Pros:
Unlimited production
Little, to no effort
Huge Profits

Cons
Needs luck to get into, but once you are in, there are no con's

Invention
Cons's
Takes an undertermined about of effort to get a interface
Limited production of BPC's due to limitation on datacores from agents
ME & PE penalties on BPC's, potentially doubling or trippling production costs
Subject to T2 BPO owners controlling the market (if the BPO owners drop the prices, you have to drop yours and you make less profit, they can supply more due to the fact that they aren't limited to poduction like you are).
Finding datacores via exploration could potentially take up all your time, leave little time for other gameplay (they seem to be about as rare as interfaces when trying to land them via exploration).

Pro's
You can say you produce T2

---

Originally by: maarud

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People shouldn't NEED 2 accounts to play this game, more than 1 account shouldn NEVER be a prequisite to get into a niche of this game.

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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Originally by: Phyrr

---

I give up. CCP give everyone in the game all the stuff they need to be Uber so everyone can happy having the same **** as everyone else. Free BPC's of interfaces and the parts to build them pls. The new WoW \o/

---

Clueless.

---

Originally by: Phyrr

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look im not rich or lucky, but you seem to be missing the point here. Invention will take time. Exploring will take time. I really hope CCP doesn't cave into your whining and dumbs this new content down.

---

Originally by: Phyrr

---

Originally by: KIAEddZ

---

Originally by: Phyrr

---

I give up. CCP give everyone in the game all the stuff they need to be Uber so everyone can happy having the same **** as everyone else. Free BPC's of interfaces and the parts to build them pls. The new WoW \o/

---

Clueless.

---

how am I clueless? sweeping statements ftw?

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Originally by: Phyrr

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I give up. CCP give everyone in the game all the stuff they need to be Uber so everyone can happy having the same **** as everyone else. Free BPC's of interfaces and the parts to build them pls. The new WoW \o/

---

Originally by: Yllse

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Originally by: Phyrr

---

look im not rich or lucky, but you seem to be missing the point here. Invention will take time. Exploring will take time. I really hope CCP doesn't cave into your whining and dumbs this new content down.

---

I don't think anyone is asking for invention to be easy. As it isto participate in T2 production in any way you have to have been very lucky or very rich. Folks who participated in the R&D scam had no way to participate in T2 production no matter how hard they worked, no matter what effort they put in. Now, invention was touted as a way to allow more players to access that aspect of the game. It's been shown that it's not accessible to any more people than before.

Ten 40 hour weeks to get a chance to have a chance at maybe getting a crappy BPC is NOT accessible to very many people no matter how much they want to participate.

---

Originally by: Oku Kee'lus

---

Originally by: Nero Scuro

---

Even if it didn't crash the T2 market it would still make T2 production a no-brainer that everyone and his dog could do. Fly to Jita > buy components > get datacores > invent yourself up a BPC with little to no effort involved. What would be the point in specialising in T2 production if that were the case?

---

Excuse me..

.. how is that different from Win Lottery > Buy resources > Produce T2?

There is only "effort" involved if you get the stuff needed for production yourself ( solo, corp, alliance ), in which case Invention requires far more "effort" than T2 BPO production.

If it doesn't crash the market, there is no problem, since Invention produced items have a much higher production cost, it can't crash anything for BPO owners, only keep margins within reason.

---

Originally by: intakius

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You are right about expactation part.Ill try tell why ppl didnot expected this
research=bpo lottery
invention=bpc lottery
noone expected insane req for crappy bpc(- ME) it would be unrealistic ,you need less thing for a bpo(just a research agent and luck) but a lot of req for a bpc .Is this right? dont you see a wrong logic here?If i said picasso paint is 20m but fake picasso 50m what would you think (not excatly same but you understand main point) ?

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Originally by: Phyrr

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10 weeks? its been 3 weeks and 1 week since multispecs. Yes more people into that aspect not everyone.

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Originally by: Phyrr

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Originally by: Yllse

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Ten 40 hour weeks to get a chance to have a chance at maybe getting a crappy BPC is NOT accessible to very many people no matter how much they want to participate.

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10 weeks? its been 3 weeks and 1 week since multispecs. Yes more people into that aspect not everyone.

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

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Originally by: Phyrr

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10 weeks? its been 3 weeks and 1 week since multispecs. Yes more people into that aspect not everyone.

---

I repeat all you care about is if in your fun fun fun Exploration, if you find a BPC its worth BILLIONS of isk.

Your selfish and only thinking of yourself.

The issues being addressed in this thread are far bigger than explorations rewards.

You have made several clueless comments, again and again proving that your opinion is nigh on worthless.

You should do as you said earlier, and give up, go do summin else instead, you have added nothing of value to this discussion.

---

Originally by: Phyrr

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im done with this thread, selfish is something im definatley not. happy whinging i-win button mashers

---

Quote:

---

Think about the people that did fight you fairly. Think.... that were honorable and helped you out in times of need. Those are the real heroes of EVE.

---

Originally by: Sarmaul

---

Probing times are (still) too long. It needed to be made easier to probe people, not like playing hide and seek in a 6x6 room with no furniture.

Originally by: Nero Scuro

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Originally by: KIAEddZ

---

But making 1 bpc or 2-4 hacs (i'm using hacs as they are potentially the most profiable, modules would produce less reward) a month....... for the investment of 400-600 hours.....

Cmon man, your still not making any sense.

---

That's a one-time cost of 400-600 man hours though. Once you have the interface it aint going anywhere, and you can produce HACs, even if only at a rate of 2-4 a month, forever.

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Originally by: Nybbas

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

---

Originally by: KIAEddZ

---

But making 1 bpc or 2-4 hacs (i'm using hacs as they are potentially the most profiable, modules would produce less reward) a month....... for the investment of 400-600 hours.....

Cmon man, your still not making any sense.

---

That's a one-time cost of 400-600 man hours though. Once you have the interface it aint going anywhere, and you can produce HACs, even if only at a rate of 2-4 a month, forever.

---

400-600 man hours... which could be spent by such an alliance making isk, using the low figure of 20 million isk an hour that is..

8 billion isk, to 12 billion isk.

then you say you would be making what... 2-4 hacs a month... even selling cerbs at 250 million isk a piece, its going to take over 8 months to even think about making up your investment (if the ships built for free)... which instead an alliance of this caliber could have spent their efforts doing many other different things, making much more isk in different ways. (not to mention 20 mil isk an hour IS AN INCREDIBLY LOW NUMBER) i would make 40 mil plus an hour just ratting in 0.0 with faction spawns included.

The invention system if it is as the OP states, in its current form is a total and complete waste of time.

---

Originally by: maarud

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

---

Originally by: maarud

---

You can't just "get datacores", there is a limit on how much you can buy from a agent in 1 day. Add, to that 1 datacore costs 1500 RP from a agent and you need 16, equating to 24k RP to make 1 HAC BPC.

That 24k rp is more than a months worth. Now, thats alot of RP.

You were suppose to be able to get datacores from exploration too, but I think they are about as rare as the interfaces.

---

Yes, but datacores are still essentially 'free'. It might limit the amount you can build each month but they don't deduct anything from your eventual earnings.

---

Well they do, cause time is money. Time doing nothing is money wasted. T2 BPO producers don't have this limitation, average joe does. So while T2 BPOs can produce as much as the BPO allows them to per hour, invention is bottle necked on the amount of RP you generate per day.

Lets try do a pro's vs con's or a just a look at the limitations on invention over a T2 BPO.

T2 BPO
Pros:
Unlimited production
Little, to no effort
Huge Profits

Cons
Needs luck to get into, but once you are in, there are no con's

Invention
Cons's
Takes an undertermined about of effort to get a interface
Limited production of BPC's due to limitation on datacores from agents
ME & PE penalties on BPC's, potentially doubling or trippling production costs
Subject to T2 BPO owners controlling the market (if the BPO owners drop the prices, you have to drop yours and you make less profit, they can supply more due to the fact that they aren't limited to poduction like you are).
Finding datacores via exploration could potentially take up all your time, leave little time for other gameplay (they seem to be about as rare as interfaces when trying to land them via exploration).

Pro's
You can say you produce T2

---

Quote:

---

tuxford: AT LEAST ITS SPEELED CORRECTLY
tuxford: spelled*
Oveur: rofl

---

Originally by: Two step

---

One other wrinkle... The amarr interfaces require Elemental Cruxes. The drop rate on these (pre-Kali) was ***insanely*** low. We were talking less than a 1 in 1000 chance of getting one. The interfaces require a hundred of these to build. Did CCP up the drop rate? If not, nobody is going to be inventing anything Amarr for quite some time.

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain (to Dark Shikari)

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HAHAHA I KNOW YOUR ACCOUUNT NAME TIME TO DIE

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Originally by: Nero Scuro

---

Originally by: Ishmael Hansen

---

Haha, been researching mechanical engineering for 2 years now and have enough rp's to buy 16 datacores, enough for 2 tries. Can get more isk out of a civ mining laser in an ibis in that time. Have you been playing the same game as I?

---

Then you must have the suckiest RP agent ever. I got my first RP agent on monday and have 700rp already. And I only have one. On average most people have 2 accounts, with a possible 4 agents on each one, each producing on average 100 rp (so that's 800 rp a day) if they only stick to level 3 agents and don't train their chosen field up past 3. That's enough for a datacore every 2 days.

---

Originally by: KIAEddZ

---

(...)

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Originally by: maarud

---

To make it easier to understand.

I can

A). Spend a week ratting/mission running/whatever and buy a T2 setup for my megathron + spares.

B) At the current rate things are looking, spend 8-16 weeks inventin a T2 setup for my megathron + spares.

That is very stupid and makes it totally worthless.

---

Originally by: JimKong II

---

CCP don't want everyone inventing their own T2 gear, invention is another means to T2 production, not a means for everyone to make their own T2 gear.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

It's like deciding between:

Buying an new CPU for your PC for 50$

-or-

Paying 300$ for the manufactoring plans for that CPU (which are only licensed for *1* run), spending 200$ for the manufactoring equipment and then spending 1 month to learn how to use it

---

Originally by: Lady Noir

---

WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH invention to hard plz ccp make it easy so we all can do it WWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA CRY CRY WHINE MOAN WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH!!!!

Seriously, invention is fully doable for anyone who wants to dedicate themselves to doing it, the decryptors are readily available, so are datacores, the interfaces are out there, you just have to find them (or buy them from someone who did)

Our corp will begin inventing ships from our ship data interface within a week and we are a very small corp, what's stopping you? Oh whats that noise? Oh no it's that WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!! again!

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Originally by: Sally Va

---

Invention is a farce.

CCP are overly concerned that the 'old' playerbase will have nothing to train for anymore/invest skills into and thus they create virtually impossible things.

This game was so much cooler when everyone used the same T1 items, or named variants. Yes, back then it was about skill. Now it is about your wallet (or your current affiliation so you can get T2 cheap)

I'm sorry for all the people that got their hopes up they could invent T2 stuff and have LIMITED BAD QUALITY bpc's (probably for personal use)

What a waste of resources, just imagine the time that went into coding and coming up with the idea of invention and how it is implemented. Would much rather have had those people working on ACTUAL issues.

---

Originally by: Ishmael Hansen

---

Originally by: Lady Noir

---

WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH invention to hard plz ccp make it easy so we all can do it WWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA CRY CRY WHINE MOAN WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH!!!!

Seriously, invention is fully doable for anyone who wants to dedicate themselves to doing it, the decryptors are readily available, so are datacores, the interfaces are out there, you just have to find them (or buy them from someone who did)

Our corp will begin inventing ships from our ship data interface within a week and we are a very small corp, what's stopping you? Oh whats that noise? Oh no it's that WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!! again!

---

Pics plz

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Originally by: JimKong II

---

Originally by: maarud

---

Originally by: JimKong II

---

Oveur never said that, hammer did.

---

Fair enough... does it change anything?

---

Devs have been known to say one thing, but do completely different, just because one guy said that, it doesn't make it fact. If they wanted the average man doing invention they wouldn't have made this huge process you have to go through to get started, obviously they want invention to be difficult.

---

Originally by: Cethrie

---

Okay to all the people who are saying they are going to invent t2 rigs/battleships.
(...)

---

Originally by: Moadyb

---

Well I'll refrain from calling anybody 'idiot' or 'ignorant' (as this appears to be the standard form to address someone in this thread )

Personnally, I am very disappointed with the invention system, I don't think the interface is necessary at all. Datacores & quality of the BPC would have put a natural out cap on any invention production + a floor in pricing (since you have to buy datacores for considerable amounts of isk).

I don't really understand why CCP is so cautious about giving the players something where actuall effort is rewarded, intead of pure luck.

---

Originally by: Lady Noir

---

Wrong about the cap, datacores are unlimited, there is no cap to them, same goes for bpcs, if that is all what was needed for invention then t2 would become very cheap very fast. Sure some of you might say that's a good thing, well when everyone is fully t2 fitted suddenly it all seems so pointless...

I know 4 per day is the limit btw, but thats 4 per agent, which is a lot.

---

Originally by: Cethrie

---

Okay to all the people who are saying they are going to invent t2 rigs/battleships. You can't period. You will never be able to. The items are not in game and wont be until the T2 BPO's are released into the lottery.

---

Originally by: Artmedis Valben

---

The BPCs for the interfaces come only from special exploration sites, which are mostly (exclusively?) found in 0.0 space. The parts for making them also drop at these sites, or are they found in the high sec COSMOS hacking complexes as well?

---

Originally by: DNightmare

---

It provides you with the way to invent ANY Tech2 module/ship/rig from it's category, so for exmaple with a Incognito Ship Data Interface, you are not just able to build a "Deimos" like a Deimos BPO Owner could,
BUT you are also able to invent BPCs for ANY known T2 Ship out there from Gallente, think about that aspect to, when complaining that they are "way to rare" "way to expensive to build" "way to much man-hours needed".

---

Originally by: Chochko

---

Just to add - WE are trying to collect the parts for Interfaces, Skill packs and encryptors from the release of Revelation - Every day for a 3 weeks - 50 man hours per day - Yes we got the skills, yes we got the encriptors, NO we dont have even 10% of the comps for 1 interface.

Do you think that is normal 1000 man hours and you are not even close to build 1 interface. With the same dedication and time - some corps manage to build a Mothership.
And even i`m not adding the time spent on exploration ( before multispec probes ) and the bugged encounter and so on and so on.

The time spent on this for us is a pure waste till this moment, but i`m backing up Eddz when we are out of contract we gonna continue to put our effort on this subject.

---

Originally by: Trotski II

---

Seems easier to build a Titan then get a ******* interface.

---

Originally by: Trotski II

---

Originally by: Chochko

---

Just to add - WE are trying to collect the parts for Interfaces, Skill packs and encryptors from the release of Revelation - Every day for a 3 weeks - 50 man hours per day - Yes we got the skills, yes we got the encriptors, NO we dont have even 10% of the comps for 1 interface.

Do you think that is normal 1000 man hours and you are not even close to build 1 interface. With the same dedication and time - some corps manage to build a Mothership.
And even i`m not adding the time spent on exploration ( before multispec probes ) and the bugged encounter and so on and so on.

The time spent on this for us is a pure waste till this moment, but i`m backing up Eddz when we are out of contract we gonna continue to put our effort on this subject.

---

Amazing how with this feedback people still can say everything is fine with invention.

1000 hours of rat/mission/mining for skilled players at the minimun 20 billion isk. 10% of components for 1 interface.

Seems easier to build a Titan then get a ******* interface.

---

Originally by: Lady Noir

---

What a load of rubbish,

...

what a load of rubbish!

---

Originally by: Ogul

---

Originally by: Lady Noir

---

What a load of rubbish,

...

what a load of rubbish!

---

Care to enlighten us with the correct numbers then?

---

Originally by: Lady Noir

---

50 hours for ship, 5 for module. Suppose you could give or take some hours depending on how lucky you are with the drops, assuming you collect them at 100% effeciency, suppose it could even take up to 75 hours for ship.

---

Originally by: KIAEddZ

---

Originally by: Lady Noir

---

50 hours for ship, 5 for module. Suppose you could give or take some hours depending on how lucky you are with the drops, assuming you collect them at 100% effeciency, suppose it could even take up to 75 hours for ship.

---

LoL

How many people working for that 50 hours Noir?

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Originally by: Lady Noir

---

Originally by: KIAEddZ

---

Originally by: Lady Noir

---

50 hours for ship, 5 for module. Suppose you could give or take some hours depending on how lucky you are with the drops, assuming you collect them at 100% effeciency, suppose it could even take up to 75 hours for ship.

---

LoL

How many people working for that 50 hours Noir?

---

2 people, hacking every can, and if you cant hack every can edery respawn with 2 hackers then your not very good are you. I also said up to 75 hours.

---

Originally by: KIAEddZ

---

Originally by: Lady Noir

---

Originally by: KIAEddZ

---

Originally by: Lady Noir

---

50 hours for ship, 5 for module. Suppose you could give or take some hours depending on how lucky you are with the drops, assuming you collect them at 100% effeciency, suppose it could even take up to 75 hours for ship.

---

LoL

How many people working for that 50 hours Noir?

---

2 people, hacking every can, and if you cant hack every can edery respawn with 2 hackers then your not very good are you. I also said up to 75 hours.

---

Your simply lying.

Post with your main.

---

Originally by: Lady Noir

---

Your simply a noob with no clue, just like your sorry excuse for a merc corp.

---

Originally by: Lady Noir

---

Edited by: Lady Noir on 21/12/2006 09:06:32

Originally by: KIAEddZ

---

Originally by: Lady Noir

---

Originally by: KIAEddZ

---

Originally by: Lady Noir

---

50 hours for ship, 5 for module. Suppose you could give or take some hours depending on how lucky you are with the drops, assuming you collect them at 100% effeciency, suppose it could even take up to 75 hours for ship.

---

LoL

How many people working for that 50 hours Noir?

---

2 people, hacking every can, and if you cant hack every can edery respawn with 2 hackers then your not very good are you. I also said up to 75 hours.

---

Your simply lying.

Post with your main.

---

Your simply a noob with no clue, just like your sorry excuse for a merc corp. Two hackers who are good enough to get every hack can for 75 hours is how long it will take to build a ship interface, or 10 module interfaces. Once it's built it exists forever and can be used over and over, if you didn't think it was worth it then WHY ON EARTH ARE YOU DOING IT?

---

Originally by: KIAEddZ

---

Originally by: Lady Noir

---

Your simply a noob with no clue, just like your sorry excuse for a merc corp.

---

Sigh.

See other thread, mods close this one.

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Originally by: Semkhet

---

And the dev who set the drop rate of these interfaces was probably on betablockers to even think that 4-5 drops per week could accomodate a gamer population of more than 30K accounts like we have now.

---

Originally by: Tanis Bastar

---

Originally by: Semkhet

---

And the dev who set the drop rate of these interfaces was probably on betablockers to even think that 4-5 drops per week could accomodate a gamer population of more than 30K accounts like we have now.

---

You mean 150k accounts and 30k simultaneous users, right?

---

Originally by: Semkhet

---

And the dev who set the drop rate of these interfaces was probably on betablockers to even think that 4-5 drops per week could accomodate a gamer population of more than 30K accounts like we have now.

---

Originally by: Lady Noir

---

Edited by: Lady Noir on 22/12/2006 14:36:29
There are over 100 data interface bpc's of all types being dropped every week, each bpc has 2 runs, so 1 bpc = 2 data interfaces.

My numbers are likely to be just as valid as yours. Prove me wrong, and while your at it, prove that your numbers of 4-5 per week are correct.

Oh wait, both numbers are totally random guesses, and neither of us could possibly know how many are really dropping, unless you quizzed every single player in eve and each of those players told you truthfully?

---

Originally by: the blender

---

Edited by: the blender on 13/02/2007 03:25:41
In the last week or so I have been exploring out hacking sites and the like (working on survey 5 for arcsal sites).
So far in the two radar sites I have explored I have found two mechanical engineering datacores (I think cant check their exact name right now) 65 spare parts and 65 electronic links. I had hacking lvl3 when I got these. I dont know how that ties in with other peoples experiances. But it says to me that the drops are improving considerably.

PS these were both high sec 0.7 sites

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