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Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:09:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: JimKong II
Originally by: maarud
Originally by: JimKong II
Oveur never said that, hammer did.
Fair enough... does it change anything?
Devs have been known to say one thing, but do completely different, just because one guy said that, it doesn't make it fact. If they wanted the average man doing invention they wouldn't have made this huge process you have to go through to get started, obviously they want invention to be difficult.
They want to keep BoB/MC hegemony. Have you ever saw bob dropping tech 1? afaik they only miss the cerb bpo. (I'm counting large guns, hac, command, etc)
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Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:10:00 -
[32]
Originally by: maarud
No, invention, Aka, reverse engineering was so everybody could get into invention, to quote oveur (I don't know how many times I going to quote this to ppl get the picture) "Perhaps its about time T2 became the norm".
Most people can use a T2 item of some kind in eve. The first T2 item I could use was a T2 cap recharger, I was so excited... till I saw the price tag of 25-30mil.
The demand for T2 is way more than the current holders of the BPO's can supply at, hence the prices.
Invetion was suppose to mean that the average man, could get into T2, a now common market (as in most people are buying it) and a increased production and effort factor.
The current effort factor so far for KIA is 3 weeks... and nothing to show for it.
So far invention sucks balls.
Why would they make T2 production something the average player could do? That'd totally devalue it. Skillpoints would suddenly become the be all and end all of PvP, because with the exception of faction gear everyone could always afford to use the best equipment all the time.
As it stands, putting in training time into using T2 stuff isn't enough. You have to have the guts to use something you could lose. Make T2 cheap and watch as everyone flys command ships everywhere and anyone who hasn't trained up to fly them - tough. You're just forced to wait as a newb until you can fly them. And that really would suck balls.
Originally by: Vasiliyan
I think this was mostly an issue of catastrophically bad expectation management.
Nobody complained that outposts or Titans were too expensive when they were introduced. Why? Because it was obvious that they were going to be expensive, things that a whole alliance could benefit from, that would require a huge investment and provide permanent benefits.
People believed that Invention was going to be widely available to the individual researcher, and nobody stepped in to correct this. That's the root of the problem. As it is, it looks like in a few months you might be able to get a module data interface for about the cost of a large POS, which isn't totally unattainable but still far from the common pilot.
Note that, because there were no interfaces on the test server, Invention is untested...
This man gets a cookie.
___
The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:15:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
They want to keep BoB/MC hegemony. Have you ever saw bob dropping tech 1? afaik they only miss the cerb bpo. (I'm counting large guns, hac, command, etc)
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Nero, that's just bs. Pretty sure you own a tech 2 bpo.
Man, you really do talk a lot of crap don't you? So everyones got a greedy ulterior motive to every mentioning anything huh, apparently including CCP who screw up their own game balance (in your opinion, not mine) just so they can get some T2 stuff to play with? Nice world you live in.
And no, I don't own a T2 BPO, and no, BoB DO drop T1 stuff.
___
The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
intakius
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:17:00 -
[34]
You are right about expactation part.Ill try tell why ppl didnot expected this
research=bpo lottery
invention=bpc lottery
noone expected insane req for crappy bpc(- ME) it would be unrealistic ,you need less thing for a bpo(just a research agent and luck) but a lot of req for a bpc .Is this right? dont you see a wrong logic here?If i said picasso paint is 20m but fake picasso 50m what would you think (not excatly same but you understand main point  ) ?
Originally by: Vasiliyan
I think this was mostly an issue of catastrophically bad expectation management.
People believed that Invention was going to be widely available to the individual researcher
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Jita TradeAlt
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:18:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Why would they make T2 production something the average player could do?
Are you functionally retarded? This thread is not about how it's a bit hard and unpleasant to get into T2 production via invention, this is about how it's finanically completely unviable to do so at all. And no, even if the datainterfaces were easily produceable then T2 would still cost many times more than T1 most of the time simply because T2 is expensive and time consuming to make thanks to the materials needed.
To whoever said Nero has a T2 bpo then I can tell you, he does not. He also does not have any idea what he's talking about.
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maarud
Einherjar Incorporated
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:19:00 -
[36]
Originally by: JimKong II
Originally by: maarud
Originally by: JimKong II
Oveur never said that, hammer did.
Fair enough... does it change anything?
Devs have been known to say one thing, but do completely different, just because one guy said that, it doesn't make it fact. If they wanted the average man doing invention they wouldn't have made this huge process you have to go through to get started, obviously they want invention to be difficult.
Difficult I can handle, I firmly believe T2 should be about effort, but can you honestly say its worth the effort.
Invention was suppose to be so people that want to work for it, can get into T2. This was the grip ppl had with T2. The poeple that dominate the market generally didn't work for it (okay, some did by buying the BPO's from people that didn't work for it, but there are only so many you can buy before the price is unobtainable by one man.)
Invention is suppose to help people get into the T2 market by working for it, which I'm all for, but it shouldn't be a 8 week process to create your first BPC, you also shouldn't need 20 ppl to help you. Perhaps 1 or 2, but the amount of people KIA have working on it is a bit stupid.
Maarud.
Proudly a Ex-BYDI member |
Primaxin
Gallente
Harbingers of Sarrow
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:20:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Primaxin on 19/12/2006 14:21:22
OP......./signed
This whole invention thing borders on ridiculous. I'm not sure why they spent time and effort to create something so awful. Whoever said in an earlier thread that they should have simply let people trade RP in for limited run T2 BPC's hit the nail on the head. They could adjust the cost of the BPC's to keep T2 items at a premium. Instead they come up with this "Rube Goldberg" scheme which at the moment is virtually unworkable.
I imagine they will eventually tweak invention to make it better but right now I feel bad about the extra training and BPO research that I did in preparation for Invention. Even with 25 million skill points, and 3B ISK, and many other resources, invention appears completely out of reach to me right now. I too had hopes that while difficult, invention would still make at least a tiny bit of T2 manufacturing available to me. Any fair reading of the dev posts prior to the Revelations patch would support that idea. The end result, however, does not.
JJZ
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Yllse
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:22:00 -
[38]
Originally by: JimKong II
If they wanted the average man doing invention they wouldn't have made this huge process you have to go through to get started, obviously they want invention to be difficult.
If they didn't want invention to be possible for the "average" person, then why, oh why, did they tout it as an alternative to the lottery for people who have invested time and isk in R&D agents?
As it stands now, it isn't difficult for the average person, it is impossible, still leaving any chance of making T2 items to the very rich and those with large groups backing them rather allowing any access to small time producers and researchers.
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maarud
Einherjar Incorporated
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:24:00 -
[39]
To make it easier to understand.
I can
A). Spend a week ratting/mission running/whatever and buy a T2 setup for my megathron + spares.
B) At the current rate things are looking, spend 8-16 weeks inventin a T2 setup for my megathron + spares.
That is very stupid and makes it totally worthless.
Maarud.
Proudly a Ex-BYDI member |
Doxs Roxs
White Wolves Defence league
The OSS
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:25:00 -
[40]
Keep it up Eddz!
I really look forward to hear when you do get it to work!
Regards
/Doxs
After 9 months, why is my face just a '!' ? |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:27:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Yllse
Originally by: JimKong II
If they wanted the average man doing invention they wouldn't have made this huge process you have to go through to get started, obviously they want invention to be difficult.
If they didn't want invention to be possible for the "average" person, then why, oh why, did they tout it as an alternative to the lottery for people who have invested time and isk in R&D agents?
As it stands now, it isn't difficult for the average person, it is impossible, still leaving any chance of making T2 items to the very rich and those with large groups backing them rather allowing any access to small time producers and researchers.
The 'average' person just means anyone not particularily invested in T2 production. Anyone can get an RP agent, it doesn't mean you've really put any time and effort into tryin to get into the T2 market.
Invention is an alternative to the poor but dedicated reseach specialists.
___
The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:30:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Jita TradeAlt
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Why would they make T2 production something the average player could do?
Are you functionally retarded? This thread is not about how it's a bit hard and unpleasant to get into T2 production via invention, this is about how it's finanically completely unviable to do so at all. And no, even if the datainterfaces were easily produceable then T2 would still cost many times more than T1 most of the time simply because T2 is expensive and time consuming to make thanks to the materials needed.
To whoever said Nero has a T2 bpo then I can tell you, he does not. He also does not have any idea what he's talking about.
Ok, just so you know for future reference I don't generally make a habit of responding to posts that;
a) are posted by alts
b) substitute reasoned debate with personal attacks and insults
c) will probably get deleted by mods anyway
d) are just generally wrong
kthxbye
___
The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 14:31:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Ishmael Hansen on 19/12/2006 14:35:15
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Originally by: maarud
No, invention, Aka, reverse engineering was so everybody could get into invention, to quote oveur (I don't know how many times I going to quote this to ppl get the picture) "Perhaps its about time T2 became the norm".
Most people can use a T2 item of some kind in eve. The first T2 item I could use was a T2 cap recharger, I was so excited... till I saw the price tag of 25-30mil.
The demand for T2 is way more than the current holders of the BPO's can supply at, hence the prices.
Invetion was suppose to mean that the average man, could get into T2, a now common market (as in most people are buying it) and a increased production and effort factor.
The current effort factor so far for KIA is 3 weeks... and nothing to show for it.
So far invention sucks balls.
Why would they make T2 production something the average player could do? That'd totally devalue it. Skillpoints would suddenly become the be all and end all of PvP, because with the exception of faction gear everyone could always afford to use the best equipment all the time.
As it stands, putting in training time into using T2 stuff isn't enough. You have to have the guts to use something you could lose. Make T2 cheap and watch as everyone flys command ships everywhere and anyone who hasn't trained up to fly them - tough. You're just forced to wait as a newb until you can fly them. And that really would suck balls.
Originally by: Vasiliyan
I think this was mostly an issue of catastrophically bad expectation management.
Nobody complained that outposts or Titans were too expensive when they were introduced. Why? Because it was obvious that they were going to be expensive, things that a whole alliance could benefit from, that would require a huge investment and provide permanent benefits.
People believed that Invention was going to be widely available to the individual researcher, and nobody stepped in to correct this. That's the root of the problem. As it is, it looks like in a few months you might be able to get a module data interface for about the cost of a large POS, which isn't totally unattainable but still far from the common pilot.
Note that, because there were no interfaces on the test server, Invention is untested...
This man gets a cookie.
Cos as it stands you only have to have guts to fly expensive stuff if you not in BoB/MC, cos they be flying 30m hacs and caring less of loosing it. How's that for fairness.
Tech 2 is only expensive if you not producing it. They can fly all the tech 2 stuff they want at prodution prices. so STFU already.
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maarud
Einherjar Incorporated
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:31:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Nero Scuro
The 'average' person just means anyone not particularily invested in T2 production. Anyone can get an RP agent, it doesn't mean you've really put any time and effort into tryin to get into the T2 market.
Just getting a R&D agent doesn't gurantee that you are going to get into the T2 BPO exclusive members club, you've got to sell your soul to the devil too and that isn't even sometimes enough, cause you have to content with 577452394759287598273459723493 other plays that sold their soul too.
Invention is suppose to be what the T2 lottery was suppose to be, getting into T2 by working for it.
Currently thats not possible.
Maarud.
Proudly a Ex-BYDI member |
Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 14:31:00 -
[45]
What the common man got was the finger.
Invention does really not look promising. I expect that IF you had a working data interface and started an invention job, your chance of success will proberly turn out to be 1%. Hurray...
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Mr. Science & Trade Institute |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:34:00 -
[46]
Originally by: maarud
To make it easier to understand.
I can
A). Spend a week ratting/mission running/whatever and buy a T2 setup for my megathron + spares.
B) At the current rate things are looking, spend 8-16 weeks inventin a T2 setup for my megathron + spares.
That is very stupid and makes it totally worthless.
I think that's exactly the point. T2 is NOT supposed to be something you idly build for yourself and mates. It's high-end market stuff that should require a lot of effort and dedication, and should never be possible solo or without investing time into it.
Or am I to take it you want to spend a week of ratting/mission running/whatever in order to build a Vulture? Cause then as I already said, everyone would be flying them.
___
The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Jita TradeAlt
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:36:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Ok, just so you know for future reference I don't generally make a habit of responding to posts that;
a) are posted by alts
b) substitute reasoned debate with personal attacks and insults
c) will probably get deleted by mods anyway
d) are just generally wrong
kthxbye
I WAS NOT LOOKING FOR YOUR RESPONSE YOUR OPINION OR ANYTHING ELSE, I WAS TELLING YOU THAT YOU WERE WRONG AND SHOULD GET OUT.
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Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:38:00 -
[48]
Originally by: maarud
Just getting a R&D agent doesn't gurantee that you are going to get into the T2 BPO exclusive members club, you've got to sell your soul to the devil too and that isn't even sometimes enough, cause you have to content with 577452394759287598273459723493 other plays that sold their soul too.
Invention is suppose to be what the T2 lottery was suppose to be, getting into T2 by working for it.
Currently thats not possible.
Fair point, I guess our definition of what's a reasonable amount of work to get into T2 production is just different.
I wouldn't say it's 'not possible' though, just hard.
___
The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:39:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Originally by: maarud
To make it easier to understand.
I can
A). Spend a week ratting/mission running/whatever and buy a T2 setup for my megathron + spares.
B) At the current rate things are looking, spend 8-16 weeks inventin a T2 setup for my megathron + spares.
That is very stupid and makes it totally worthless.
I think that's exactly the point. T2 is NOT supposed to be something you idly build for yourself and mates. It's high-end market stuff that should require a lot of effort and dedication, and should never be possible solo or without investing time into it.
Or am I to take it you want to spend a week of ratting/mission running/whatever in order to build a Vulture? Cause then as I already said, everyone would be flying them.
I think I'm gonna get banned, but... OMFG can you be more clueless?
"T2 is NOT supposed to be something you idly build for yourself and mates" cos that will be VERY DIFERENT from the TECH 2 OWNERS, ONLY THEY DESERVE THE RIGHT TO DO IT AS THEY "RANDOMLY" WON ALL THE BPOS. And have invested huge amounts of hard wotk into it. Can you just die?
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maarud
Einherjar Incorporated
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:39:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Nero Scuro
I think that's exactly the point. T2 is NOT supposed to be something you idly build for yourself and mates. It's high-end market stuff that should require a lot of effort and dedication, and should never be possible solo or without investing time into it.
But currently it isn't. It requires a god like amount of time and effort, which is completely over the top.
Maarud.
Proudly a Ex-BYDI member |
KIAEddZ
Caldari
KIA Corp
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 14:41:00 -
[51]
Nero
You are missing a very valid point.
producing Tech 2 via Invention, will be very very inefficient, meaning that it will still cost around 100 million for a Hac for example, in pure build costs. (we'll know more once we can test build lol)
The market bottom isnt going to "fall out" because of invention, but it will break the Tech 2 Owners hold over prices etc.
KIA EVE Home
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Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:43:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Cos as it stands you only have to have guts to fly expensive stuff if you not in BoB/MC, cos they be flying 30m hacs and caring less of loosing it. How's that for fairness.
Tech 2 is only expensive if you not producing it. They can fly all the tech 2 stuff they want at prodution prices. so STFU already.
And I'm saying that BoB/MC DO fly T1 things, and you haven't flown against them very often if you think they fly HACs like they're worth nothing.
Also, just because you tell me to STFU doesn't mean I'll actually do it, it just makes you seem like an angry, angry little person, m'kay?
Originally by: Jita TradeAlt
I WAS NOT LOOKING FOR YOUR RESPONSE YOUR OPINION OR ANYTHING ELSE, I WAS TELLING YOU THAT YOU WERE WRONG AND SHOULD GET OUT.
Ok ok, I said I wouldn't respond to you anymore but that was too funny! I should get out, eh? Get out of where? What does that even mean? We're on a forum!
___
The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:47:00 -
[53]
Originally by: KIAEddZ
Nero
You are missing a very valid point.
producing Tech 2 via Invention, will be very very inefficient, meaning that it will still cost around 100 million for a Hac for example, in pure build costs. (we'll know more once we can test build lol)
The market bottom isnt going to "fall out" because of invention, but it will break the Tech 2 Owners hold over prices etc.
Ok, I was mostly arguing about the cost of getting an interface, not how efficient (or inefficient) actually building the stuff is once you have one (which I'm ignorant on atm).
___
The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Kirjava
Caldari
Storm Thesis
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:48:00 -
[54]
To start, I am not and Alt.
Also, I want to go into invention to go into production to make isk, not an "i win button" for isk making, but a way to increase the value of my T1 commerce.
This is for the benefit of people that beleive I want the opposite of the above.
The devs did state that we would be getting Invention as a meyhod to go into T2 production for the masses, I read this as the dedicated industrialist/scientist players such as myself, as I;
A)Dont have the cash to build a Titan, let alone a HAC BPO
B)Have 5 L4 R&D agents that do very little.
I am going to go exploring soon to get an interface, but the problem stands at this bottleneck, and it just isnt good enough. I specalised in industry to excell in industry.
My point is, I cant go into invention because I realise I have a better chance of nailing the BoB titan in my Ibis than finding the materials nessacary to build an interfacce and lay my hands on a bpc.
/Sighned, I cant say what needs changed, but that isnt what im employed to do. I make ships, thats what I do.
Storm Thesis
CEO |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:52:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
I think I'm gonna get banned, but... OMFG can you be more clueless?
"T2 is NOT supposed to be something you idly build for yourself and mates" cos that will be VERY DIFERENT from the TECH 2 OWNERS, ONLY THEY DESERVE THE RIGHT TO DO IT AS THEY "RANDOMLY" WON ALL THE BPOS. And have invested huge amounts of hard wotk into it. Can you just die?
They had just as much chance of of getting a BPO as anyone else, but yes the system is stupid. See my posts circa some 8 months ago on the topic.
And no I won't die, I enjoy living. I get to see funny things like you and Jita Tradealt having heart-attacks over things someone in a forum said. Hi-larious!
___
The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
maarud
Einherjar Incorporated
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:52:00 -
[56]
Personally, I want a dev blog now saying, "hrrmm, we messed up with invention, we'll be changing it" or "invetion is fine, you guys are just going about it the wrong way, here's a couple pointers".
Maarud.
Proudly a Ex-BYDI member |
KIAEddZ
Caldari
KIA Corp
|
Posted - 2006.12.19 14:54:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Ok, I was mostly arguing about the cost of getting an interface, not how efficient (or inefficient) actually building the stuff is once you have one (which I'm ignorant on atm).
I dont htink you are only ignorant on that matter Nero.
I honestly feel you have little to NO idea how much effort is required to get this Interface.
i would say around 400-600 man hours ish.....
Are you telling me thats a fair price for the right to even try Invention?
I think you are sat not caring about invention, because its not something you wish to do, your attitude would be very different if you were charged with getting an INterface.
At the moment Inventing is only something the rich or the very large can do, for the average corp, its way beyond what they could realitically commit to any venture.
At the moment Tech 2 BPO owners have the win button, and Invention does not offer even a share of that win button to the people of Eve.... thats not what CCP touted at all.
KIA EVE Home
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Kirjava
Caldari
Storm Thesis
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:54:00 -
[58]
Originally by: maarud
Personally, I want a dev blog now saying, "hrrmm, we messed up with invention, we'll be changing it" or "invetion is fine, you guys are just going about it the wrong way, here's a couple pointers".
Humility on the subject would reinstate some lost faith in CCP, and some pointers would be an acceptable compromise.
Storm Thesis
CEO |
Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:55:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Cos as it stands you only have to have guts to fly expensive stuff if you not in BoB/MC, cos they be flying 30m hacs and caring less of loosing it. How's that for fairness.
Tech 2 is only expensive if you not producing it. They can fly all the tech 2 stuff they want at prodution prices. so STFU already.
And I'm saying that BoB/MC DO fly T1 things, and you haven't flown against them very often if you think they fly HACs like they're worth nothing.
Also, just because you tell me to STFU doesn't mean I'll actually do it, it just makes you seem like an angry, angry little person, m'kay?
Originally by: Jita TradeAlt
I WAS NOT LOOKING FOR YOUR RESPONSE YOUR OPINION OR ANYTHING ELSE, I WAS TELLING YOU THAT YOU WERE WRONG AND SHOULD GET OUT.
Ok ok, I said I wouldn't respond to you anymore but that was too funny! I should get out, eh? Get out of where? What does that even mean? We're on a forum!
My angry not directed at you, you doing your tech 2 lobby thing, can't blame you. If I owned a few bpo's I was prolly doing the same, maybe not.
Stupidly angry as CCP been baiting us with a carrot for the past 2 years and only thing it does is throw sand at our eyes, first with the "agent offer" project (SHIVA) now with this invention, which is fubered. Even more angry cos they been lowering skill reqs for salvaging, probing etc, and not a single word on invention.
This system not fair and only benefit tech 2 owners hegemony more and more.
ps - still 1/2 decent guys out there, there is still one person selling cerb at 150m.
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Phyrr
Minmatar
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2006.12.19 14:56:00 -
[60]
look im not rich or lucky, but you seem to be missing the point here. Invention will take time. Exploring will take time. I really hope CCP doesn't cave into your whining and dumbs this new content down.
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