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Lady Noir
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Posted - 2006.12.20 12:59:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Lady Noir on 20/12/2006 12:59:19
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Lady Noir
Cost 250m to invent a has? ROFL, how do you know this? You don't. You know nothing about how much the end cost will be per invented item.
I made it quite clear that it was an estimation, and explained how I came with those numbers.
Now, since you obviously know better, and since you're trying to convince us all of how clever you and your corp are, would you care to write down your own previsions?
Datacores? Free. T1 BPC? Free. Decryptor? Free. T1 meta item? depends on what your building, even if it's a hac it's still only 4-5m tops. Data interface? Expensive, but it lasts forever, use as much as you want.
Now you do the math.
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Lady Noir
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Posted - 2006.12.20 13:01:00 -
[62]
And if your corp cant supply you with datacores, then you shouldn't be inventing in the first place, not unless you want to pay other people to sell them to you that is.
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Ogul
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Posted - 2006.12.20 13:05:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Lady Noir
All caps locks? Wow, i must really be getting to you, i'm not even trying.
The bliss of ignorance, everyone can be immediately and effortlessly good at it. Please go on defining your rate of success by the number of people you **** off.
EddZ has a point: inventing a t2 item is actually more expensive than buying it from a bpo owner because the initial investment will not pay off in less than a couple of years time (and we haven't even considered the success rate). So far you have been unable or unwilling to invalidate this.
What makes it even funnier is the fact that due to the apparent lack of documentation/information no one is able to determine if invention is simply broken or an insanely stupid idea.
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2006.12.20 13:11:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Lady Noir
Datacores? Free.
Absolute BS. The price of an item is what people are willing to pay for in the market. By your logic, a T2 BPO is free...
Quote: T1 BPC? Free. Decryptor? Free.
See above
Quote:
T1 meta item? depends on what your building, even if it's a hac it's still only 4-5m tops. Data interface? Expensive, but it lasts forever, use as much as you want.
Now you do the math.
And what about the hours you and your corp will spent not making money because you're busy inventing stuff? Or are you all slaves that works for free? ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types. |
Ogul
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Posted - 2006.12.20 13:12:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Lady Noir
Datacores? Free. T1 BPC? Free. Decryptor? Free. T1 meta item? depends on what your building, even if it's a hac it's still only 4-5m tops. Data interface? Expensive, but it lasts forever, use as much as you want.
Now you do the math.
Great, care to sell me a thousand datacores then? I will pay 100 ISK per unit.
On a serious note, applying your special flavour of logic, faction battleships are free too.
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SSandra
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Posted - 2006.12.20 13:16:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Lady Noir Anyone can do invention, you just need to figure out what you need and where to get it, then spend the time doing it, it's that simple. Devs, don't cave into the whiners like Kia, this is exactly what EVE needs, content that is really hard to achieve yet in the reach of anyone who really puts the effort in.
Lets face it, all the whiners complaining about it are just whining because they don't want to put the effort in, they thought it was going to be easy, EVE doesn't need more easy, easy gets boring fast.
If you REALLY want to do invention, you'll get hold of all the required parts, it won't be easy, and you have to have at least a little smarts too (unlike the whiner-brigade in the daily invention whine thread that kia starts).
Invention is fine, it's only been a few weeks, and actually only a few days since multispec probes were released, if after half a year hardly anyone is inventing, then maybe look into things a bit more.
Post with your main...you T2 bpo holder!
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Kion
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2006.12.20 13:27:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Serious Bob Inventable bpos would be the ****zle.
Not sure about this but if you could alter the BPC and produce your own Faction ships then that would make invention a real winner.
Kion
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Liisa
Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.12.20 13:38:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Lady Noir
Datacores? Free. T1 BPC? Free. Decryptor? Free. T1 meta item? depends on what your building, even if it's a hac it's still only 4-5m tops. Data interface? Expensive, but it lasts forever, use as much as you want.
Now you do the math.
This is like saying all minerals are free if you mine them. They are worth the value of the market.
I will try to explain this to you, though I doubt I will manage to get the point across to you. Let us start with a simple statement: Time is Money.
This means that if you spend 100 manhours to find something, it is worth 100 hours worth of, say, mining scordite in a highsec system (around 5 million/hour). It is NOT free. You could have spent that time mining and making money, so that something is worth around 500 million isk.
Research points are also not free. You have to get your standings up in order to use the best agents and need to wait for the points to come in. The general, accepted, value of research points currently stands at around 5 thousand isk. This means that people normally expect around 7 million for their datacores. Since nobody is really buying them the price is currently depressed at around 5 million.
A T1 BPC is not free. You could sell it on the market and get isk for it. It is worth what you could have sold it for.
Data interface: A big investment. You have to pay off the investment. Remember what I said above about time not being free.
So, you need to subtract what you could have made selling all those little goodies and the amount of time you could have been making isk from your profit before you can say something is worthwhile. If it takes you 100 hours to make a 4 run bpc which yields a profit of 500 million isk, you have not really made a great profit. Many people who have the skills to invent make an average of 20 million isk per hour ratting.
If you are just doing this for the novelty value, sure, go ahead. But I have to admit I believe KiaEddz more than you because he has given us numbers and estimates about the amount of time he and his corp has invested. With this we can get an idea on how hard and expensive invention is. This means we can form an idea on how worthwhile it is.
You have just said that everything is fine. You have not brought up numbers or even estimates telling us how quickly invention is going. All you have said is that you will soon have an interface. Tell us how long it took. How many hours you worked. If you do not do that, we will just think you are sprouting a lot of hot air and think that you are an idiot. ----------------------------------
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Tharrn
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2006.12.20 14:04:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Tharrn on 20/12/2006 14:04:57
Originally by: Lady Noir
Datacores? Free. T1 BPC? Free. Decryptor? Free. T1 meta item? depends on what your building, even if it's a hac it's still only 4-5m tops. Data interface? Expensive, but it lasts forever, use as much as you want.
Now you do the math.
Reminds me of the people who sell ships below mineral value because 'minerals you mine yourself are free'.
Edit: previous poster beat me :P
Now recruiting!
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KIAEddZ
Caldari KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.12.20 14:37:00 -
[70]
Lol Lady Noir, your full of it.
The people not wanting Invention made more realistic, are the people that a. own BPOs or b. dont care or c. want the massive effort they have put into Invention already to pay off with huge profits because of little competition.
You fit into one of the catergories, probbaly a and c combined.
KIA will have working interfaces this week, and we will be producing Caldari and Minmitar Hacs and module, we wont be selling anything to the common market though, we wont be able to as the produce amount will be too low, it will all be given to corp.
Our attitude is simply we want this to be open to the whole player base, not the people that are just driven by greed and will do anything to attempt to strangle hold any portion of the game , like yourself.
Its been said many times already, post with your main or stfu.
(i worte this 3 hours ago b4 going for my team lunch, fk knows if its still relevant)
KIA EVE Home
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Will Hunter
Black Knight Buccaneers Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2006.12.20 14:37:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Lady Noir And if your corp cant supply you with datacores, then you shouldn't be inventing in the first place, not unless you want to pay other people to sell them to you that is.
Lady Noir, if you are going to post please do so with main character, not an alt that has been in a starter corp for 1yr and almost 2 months - makes me wonder if you have a bpo of some value, and that your precious IWin button is in danger if others can produce t2 ships/items via invention...
If this is your main character the likelihood that you know what you are talking about especially since your characters history has never been in any corp except Imperial Academy, and therefore would not have had the opportunity to go into alliance held 0.0 space and repeatedly scan for dead space signatures that lead to exploration sites. If you had done so you would realize that it is not easy and very rare to find the interface bpc's furthermore they are built out of rare components not commonly found.
Invention it seems is not currently for the masses, or the few, in fact i can't even workout with the lack of interface drops if its even designed for anyone at all. ----------------------------------------------
If at first you don't succeed, give up - you tried once already.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.12.20 14:38:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 20/12/2006 14:41:54 I would suggest being a bit nicer to Lady Noir, as it sounds like her corp is a bit closer to exploring the invention system in detail than most of you.
Perhaps that way you can form an opinion based on fact rather than wild speculation.
You may find that you are completely correct and the system may need revision. Then again, you may simply keep yourself from looking foolish if the system works well once established.
Lady Noir, if you would be so kind as to let us know as much as you can about your success or failure with invention, some of us would appreciate it.
PS: For those of you who seem confused, I'm reasonably sure that Lady Noir is an alt and her main character is in fact the one involved in invention.
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Flying Non
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Posted - 2006.12.20 14:57:00 -
[73]
I own a data interface bpc and is not easy to get the part to build the data interface. With the current system i need to find 100 similair sites to get the parts needed to build the fricking interface. I can buy the parts needed off market but that would set me back 2-3 bil.
Asume i did all above, i can start invention. I need the datacores and stuff. That will set me back millions and in return i might have a chance to get a low quality bpc. I get the OPs point its easy.......right.
You need to be a T2 producer to even have enough isk to start inventing. Current system is not working and will not have a chance to compete with the T2 BPO owners. If CCP keeps it in his current state it will a rich mans toy thing not a goal for a player or corp to achieve.
my 2 cents,
Non MicanG's jumpclone Service
Customer Feedbacks
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Sonlatur
Minmatar Matari Raiders
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Posted - 2006.12.20 15:17:00 -
[74]
Originally by: KIAEddZ KIA will have working interfaces this week, and we will be producing Caldari and Minmitar Hacs and module, we wont be selling anything to the common market though, we wont be able to as the produce amount will be too low, it will all be given to corp.
Our attitude is simply we want this to be open to the whole player base, not the people that are just driven by greed and will do anything to attempt to strangle hold any portion of the game , like yourself.
I hope you keep up the information policy once you have invented a couple of BPCs. Of interest are obviously the success rates, the ME loss and the number of runs you can get. Oh, and how long does an invention job take?
My wild guess would be that you'll be pleasantly surprised - but we'll see.
Originally by: Flying Non I own a data interface bpc and is not easy to get the part to build the data interface. With the current system i need to find 100 similair sites to get the parts needed to build the fricking interface. I can buy the parts needed off market but that would set me back 2-3 bil.
A price of a couple of billions for an interface is to be expected imho - a T1 battleship BPO already costs more than a billion, and noone would argue that it isnt potentially open to the whole player base.
Originally by: Flying Non Asume i did all above, i can start invention. I need the datacores and stuff. That will set me back millions and in return i might have a chance to get a low quality bpc.
Of course you should have enough money left to do a couple of runs - then it isnt luck but statistics. Say, half of your tries will work. Or whatever percentage. But the chance component is just another cost factor and to find out, not something about luck that will make or break the prospective new T2 producer.
Originally by: Flying Non You need to be a T2 producer to even have enough isk to start inventing.
Yes, just as only the T2 producers own battleship BPOs .
-- "Greetings fellow pod pilot. I am Sonlatur of the Sebiestor tribe and you have become a target in my war against the Evil Amarr Empire. Ransom negotiations are possible." |
ChrisFish
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Posted - 2006.12.20 15:19:00 -
[75]
The amount of misinformation or assumption in this thread is astounding.
note: I am undecided on invention so far, so this isn't a flame or argument for either side.
I'd like to point out a few to help out: 1) You can only get datacores from Research agents - This has been proven incorrect. 2) You can only get large amounts of datacores from Research agents - Proven incorrect 3) You can't get them solo - Incorrect 4) You can only get them in 0.0 - Incorrect. People have found them in as high as 0.6. Haven't heard of reports of higher than that. 5) You can only get Data Interface BPC in a large corp - Incorrect. I know someone that got one solo. In 0.0 1 jump from 0.5 6) You can only build with materials from COSMOS and you need a large corp to build it - Unknown. I have not personally found anyone that did that any other way. 7) You have x% chance to fail anyways - Unknown. No one has tried yet. Any info here is complete speculation and adds no value except to what-if. It probably non-zero based on dev statements. 8) It will take you forever to make a profit from a Data Interface because they are so expensive. - Uh, no. You make a profit the first time you invent something, simply because the Data Interface is not destroyed or altered in any way. It's still worth whatever the market will bear. When ever you want to cash out, sell the Data Interface. It's an asset with real value. The only real concern is could you sell the DI for what it cost you to build it.
Hopefully, someone will invent something good soon. Then we will know more details.
FYI: I am a solo player. I have this character exploring, and I have another character that runs a research POS. The only thing that is stopping me from being able to invent right now appears to be the building of the Data Interface. I think that part will require a lot of farming and people. But if I save up the ISK, I may be able to buy one in the future. If that is true, I will invent. For that reason, I am not against the current system yet. It's just too early to tell. I have one research agent working...maybe I'll get lucky and hit the tech 2 lottery and not worry about any of this then
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Vasiliyan
PAX Interstellar Services Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.20 15:21:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Lady Noir
Datacores? Free. T1 BPC? Free. Decryptor? Free. T1 meta item? depends on what your building, even if it's a hac it's still only 4-5m tops. Data interface? Expensive, but it lasts forever, use as much as you want.
Now you do the math.
Are you one of these people who believes that you can get a ship for free if you own the BPO and mine your own minerals?
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Kusotarre
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.20 15:38:00 -
[77]
Blah blah blah.
Here's what this comes down to - whether the devs stated it or not (and maybe they did) Invention was introduced to lower the stupefying prices of many T2 items.
Invention is not accomplishing that as is.
Invention clearly needs a boost.
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ChrisFish
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Posted - 2006.12.20 15:50:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Kusotarre Blah blah blah.
Here's what this comes down to - whether the devs stated it or not (and maybe they did) Invention was introduced to lower the stupefying prices of many T2 items.
Invention is not accomplishing that as is.
Invention clearly needs a boost.
No, It comes down to the fact its only been 2 friggin weeks. Its impossible to know if it is accomplishing anything as is. How could you possibly expect this already? |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2006.12.20 15:57:00 -
[79]
Originally by: ChrisFish
No, It comes down to the fact its only been 2 friggin weeks. Its impossible to know if it is accomplishing anything as is. How could you possibly expect this already?
One week was more than enough to realise the rig's production, was borked and worthless for 99% of the playerbase as it was, and it got corrected. Same for the probing in deadspace pockets. It's basically the same here.
Two weeks may indeed be too short to be sure a feature is fine, but it's not too short to realise that a feature isn't fine. ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types. |
ChrisFish
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Posted - 2006.12.20 16:11:00 -
[80]
Edited by: ChrisFish on 20/12/2006 16:14:08
Originally by: Shadowsword One week was more than enough to realise the rig's production, was borked and worthless for 99% of the playerbase as it was, and it got corrected. Same for the probing in deadspace pockets. It's basically the same here.
Two weeks may indeed be too short to be sure a feature is fine, but it's not too short to realise that a feature isn't fine.[/quote
It took a while just to discover how to find the items using probes, and to make probes. I see your point, I just happen to disagree. I think CCP should wait 2 more weeks and then review. Just my 2 ISK |
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Herculite
Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.12.20 16:31:00 -
[81]
Threads like this make me long for another BoB thread by an ASCN alt. Those seem to have more going for it.
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Nybbas
Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.12.20 17:06:00 -
[82]
guys stop feeding the troll. There is NO WAY this person is actually serious, the only reasoning I can think of is that they know how touchy people are on this subject and decided to swat the bees nest. Just stop responding to the person, their entire goal is to **** everyone off.
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Dao 2
Generals Of Destruction Syndicate Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.20 17:23:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Originally by: Patch86 Invention needs to be doable, and worth the effort- if its not, it might aswell not be there.
Oh its worth the effort. Go build hulks
it should be worth the effor tfor everything :| not just 1 thing ;p ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p)
the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that
Also the gal |
Dao 2
Generals Of Destruction Syndicate Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.20 17:24:00 -
[84]
honestly noir ur retarded
and first off when u scream for ppl to show proof that its not broken, SHOW SOME PROOF UR DAMN SELF THAT IT ISNT GOD WOT IS WRONG WITH YOU ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p)
the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that
Also the gal |
Nimie
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Posted - 2006.12.20 17:41:00 -
[85]
how did you get 250m for a hac? anyone know a list with as many real numbers as possible so we could really look at it?
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Moominer
InterGalactic Corp.
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Posted - 2006.12.20 18:10:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Moominer on 20/12/2006 18:11:23 Someone mentioned on another invention thread that if you focus on the most profitable T2 items, invention can work out pretty profitable.
Ignoring the initial interface investment, you are looking at about ~30mil on datacores for a cov op cloak II. Taking into consideration additional build materials (decryptors, someone mentioned some other required materials that are not listed) theres still a healthy profit to make - even if its just a 1 run BPC. If you land a larger number run BPC things are looking very good.
The problem I have is with the non-obsurdly marked up items. Take a 425mm railgun II. This item is in massive demand (even more so post Kali I would assume). Ignoring the module build costs, you need over a 5run BPC just to break even from an invention attempt.
We currently don't know what the runs are like from invention BPCs, until we do, it's nothing more than speculation, hopefully they are quite large (10-20run) and then people may start to see the benefits, but until then we just don't know, so who's going to bother trying. Eve Fitting Manager
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Marton Gastolfer
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Posted - 2006.12.20 18:11:00 -
[87]
Originally by: HankMurphy
jesus. if i had a 'lock one thread free' ticket in my pocket..
and i wonder why lady noir wouldn't want to use his/her/its real char to post
Seen Jenny Spitfire lately?
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Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2006.12.20 18:27:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Tanis BastarAnd I think I see where this is going--I believe that CCP has introduced Data Interfaces as being necessary for T3 Invention, and as always, has decided that it is best if the existing T2 Barons have almost exclusive access to these items. I also suspect that Inventing T3 items will require a Data Interface AND a T2 BPC, which is an insult rather than a joke. Pure speculation, but you heard it here first.[/quote
Second Tanis . http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=446970&page=5#131
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gateho
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Posted - 2006.12.20 18:33:00 -
[89]
As a producer of T2 Cap rechargers. I SAY NO TO MAKING INVENTION EASIER.
As things stand, I currently charge almost a disgustingly high markup value to what it costs me to build them ( laugh at you suckers )
This single BPO has funded such an enourmouse ammount of money for me, I cannot even begin to describe to you how rich I am. You would be sad I promise you.
Furthermore, I will do everything in my power to continue to purchase all T2 BPO's for cap rechargers 2's ( I own 8 at the moment ) in an effort to corner the market, and raise prices. I would prefer to gouge the community even more if I possibly can.
Anyhow. my poiny is. Please dont make invention easier. I am to happy making such easy free isk at the expense of the rest of the community.
Thank you.
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Tribunal
FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.12.20 18:39:00 -
[90]
step 1) Flush the entire invention system down the toilet step 2) Allow the agents to give out tech 2 BPCs every month with a lottery. step 3) Rejoice! You have made a noncomplex system that works!
"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers |
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