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Lady Noir	Posted - 2006.12.26 14:28:00 - [1] Edited by: Lady Noir on 26/12/2006 14:29:51 For our first invention test, we did 5 hac invention jobs, we have encryption skills at level 5, starship engineering and mechanical engineering at level 5, we have been using the T1 version of the ship. So we started 5 HAC invention jobs, using one of each decryptor type, three jobs failed, the other two worked but resulted in only 1 run copies of the hac bpc. We just finished 8 more invention jobs, this time we used assault frigates. For the first 4 we used the decryptor which gives the best possible chance at success of an invention job. For the last 4 jobs we used the decryptor type that claims to multiply the runs of the output T2 bpc "greatly" The first 4 jobs all failed, nice waste of time and effort there, those were using the supposedly "increases probability of a successful invention job to the best possible chance" decryptors. Best chance of success? They ALL failed! Out of the final 4 jobs, 3 failed, 1 succeeded, we got a -8 me -3 pe 1 run bpc of an assault frigate. WTF? This was using the decryptor that supposedly multiplies the runs of the output bpc "greatly". Overall, 7 out of 8 jobs failed. We got a 1 run bpc out of the one that succeeded, and that was using a decryptor that supposedly multiplies the number of runs of the T2 bpc greatly, yeah right to that. What a complete and utter waste of time, lucky we tested using assualt frigates this time and not HAC's huh? We will continue to do testing but results take time as invention jobs take time to complete, don't expect anything groundbreaking tbh. CCP mesed up with invention, BIG TIME!
Kirjava Caldari Storm Thesis	Posted - 2006.12.26 14:33:00 - [2] /Sighned A devblog or reply would be appreciated Devs, I havent heard even rumour that a dev has acknowleged this issue. Storm Thesis CEO
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.26 14:33:00 - [3] I think its by design. If you could easily invent something, the market would be flooded with new ships, removing any profit margin the sellers have today. So they probably intentionally made it quite difficult to make sure that successful inventions are rare, in order to not kill the t2 economy completely. At least it sounds logical to me. I can understand that its not fun though... spending all that time for something chance based, and then failing at it with no option to get time/stuff back. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Lady Noir	Posted - 2006.12.26 14:36:00 - [4] Originally by: Jim McGregor I think its by design. If you could easily invent something, the market would be flooded with new ships, removing any profit margin the sellers have today. So they probably intentionally made it quite difficult to make sure that successful inventions are rare, in order to not kill the t2 economy completely. At least it sounds logical to me. I can understand that its not fun though... spending all that time for something chance based, and then failing at it with no option to get time/stuff back. If it is by design to fail 7 out of 8 times with invention then they should just remove invention now and free up some server load, as it currently stands nobody is going to invent anything.
Hakera Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.26 14:38:00 - [5] what was wrong with your first thread?
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.26 14:40:00 - [6] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/12/2006 14:40:22 Originally by: Lady Noir If it is by design to fail 7 out of 8 times with invention then they should just remove invention now and free up some server load, as it currently stands nobody is going to invent anything. Why not? Lets say it works in 1 out of 10 times. The chance of success is low, but once you successfully get that cerberus bpc, you earn about 200 mill iskies by building and selling a cerberus on the market. Since its chance based (no player skill involved), they basicly have to make it work this way to not overflow the market... right? I mean, if it was easy, everyone would do it, and prices would drop to build cost just like with t1 equipment. At least that seems likely to me, but im not a market expert... far from it. Originally by: Hakera what was wrong with your first thread? For some reason, new threads are easier to start following than catching up with old ones... its a laziness thing. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Tharrn Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2006.12.26 14:40:00 - [7] There's quite a lot of T2 BPOs about that have a 'normal' profit margin that would not be affected by invention as the BPCs are so ineffective (including ships) and personally I don't think that it would be a terribly bad thing if the HAC monopoly would be broken and some competition introduced. Now recruiting!
Kirjava Caldari Storm Thesis	Posted - 2006.12.26 14:40:00 - [8] Originally by: Lady Noir If it is by design to fail 7 out of 8 times with invention then they should just remove invention now and free up some server load, as it currently stands nobody is going to invent anything. She has a point, what realy is the point in invention where one can mine more in high ends and buy the equip for a fraction of the price if you were to invent it yourself? It should be cheaper to build it yourself than to buy off market, like with most equip. Storm Thesis CEO
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.26 14:43:00 - [9] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/12/2006 14:45:02 Originally by: Tharrn There's quite a lot of T2 BPOs about that have a 'normal' profit margin that would not be affected by invention as the BPCs are so ineffective (including ships) and personally I don't think that it would be a terribly bad thing if the HAC monopoly would be broken and some competition introduced. I agree, but they dont want to overdo it... they dont want the 250 mill vagas to cost 20 mill one month from now, then they might as well remove the lottery and just say "now t2 is baseline" (I know they said they wanted it in a blog before, but it doesnt seem they really want that after all). And if sellers could only get 20 mill for a vaga, why would they bother inventing it? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Tharrn Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2006.12.26 14:45:00 - [10] Because it is convenient to produce your own stuff if you don't want to be forced to go to the hubs to buy ships for example. Personally I'd go for stuff like sensor boosters and EANMs if we could invent at all. Doe anyone have data regarding non-ship invention yet? Now recruiting!
Lady Noir	Posted - 2006.12.26 14:47:00 - [11] Jim, i really don't have the patience to deal with someone as clueless about invention as you right now, you obviously don't know anything, otherwise you would know that 10 HAC invention jobs chew up 10 T1 cruisers, 10 t1 bpcs, 160 datacores, 10 decryptors, 10 factory rentals, not to mention all the hastle and cost involved in gathering all tht stuff together, do you know how many research points 160 datacores is? It's 120,000 starship RP, and 40,000 mechanical engineering RP. All that for a 1 crappy 1 run hac bpc?
Tharrn Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2006.12.26 14:49:00 - [12] But datacores are free you said! Now recruiting!
Lady Noir	Posted - 2006.12.26 14:50:00 - [13] Originally by: Tharrn But datacores are free you said! Yes, well done, they are free, but 160 datacores takes a long time to get. A very long time.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.26 14:53:00 - [14] Originally by: Lady Noir Jim, i really don't have the patience to deal with someone as clueless about invention as you right now, you obviously don't know anything, otherwise you would know that 10 HAC invention jobs chew up 10 T1 cruisers, 10 t1 bpcs, 160 datacores, 10 decryptors, 10 factory rentals, not to mention all the hastle and cost involved in gathering all tht stuff together, do you know how many research points 160 datacores is? It's 120,000 starship RP, and 40,000 mechanical engineering RP. All that for a 1 crappy 1 run hac bpc? I told you, im no expert. If you post this in General Discussion you are going to get some posts from people who dont know as much as you do about something. Which will force you to make a good point. What did you expect, a list of people typing /signed? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Kaden Seer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2006.12.26 14:57:00 - [15] /signed
Tharrn Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2006.12.26 14:57:00 - [16] I suppose all puns aside we all agree that invention (and the way to get there!) are currently an ISK sink without any sensible returns. Now recruiting!
Xaildaine	Posted - 2006.12.26 14:57:00 - [17] /signed
Xendie Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.26 15:00:00 - [18] Originally by: Lady Noir Originally by: Jim McGregor I think its by design. If you could easily invent something, the market would be flooded with new ships, removing any profit margin the sellers have today. So they probably intentionally made it quite difficult to make sure that successful inventions are rare, in order to not kill the t2 economy completely. At least it sounds logical to me. I can understand that its not fun though... spending all that time for something chance based, and then failing at it with no option to get time/stuff back. If it is by design to fail 7 out of 8 times with invention then they should just remove invention now and free up some server load, as it currently stands nobody is going to invent anything. i believe i foretold that this would be the result when the devs said it would "greatly" improve T2 prices and availability. it wont even hold up to regular 0.0 ratting in time vs cash value. its worthless. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Valekrin Ziemisra	Posted - 2006.12.26 15:00:00 - [19] 120.000 starship and 40.000 mech eng. To get an idea of how long a lev4 agent takes to get that amount, could you see how many p/day your getting? Its gotta be more then 6 months or something.
Jameroz Independent Frontiers Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.26 15:00:00 - [20] I'd so much prefer if it wasn't chance based or if you could somehow maximize the chance to 100% (Level 5 skill & chance inreasing decrypter perhaps?). Especially when we don't see the chance it's really hard for people to prize datacores at reasonable rate. They take quite long time to get from research npcs and seems the professions are better way to get them. I would like to see my research agent making me atleast million a day. But I guess if the chances are so bad the prices of datacores will be dropping. Independent Frontiers is recruiting
Tharrn Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2006.12.26 15:10:00 - [21] Edited by: Tharrn on 26/12/2006 15:11:30 Originally by: Valekrin Ziemisra 120.000 starship and 40.000 mech eng. To get an idea of how long a lev4 agent takes to get that amount, could you see how many p/day your getting? Its gotta be more then 6 months or something. About 250-300 (round numbers make the calculation easier :P ) so 400+ days. Over a year. If you do it passively. Edit: for Starship Engineering. Now recruiting!
Xorena Blastaphart Caldari Signum Malus	Posted - 2006.12.26 15:21:00 - [22] Duh ... what did you expect, I've said since the day they published how Invention would work that the whole concept was borked.. The Dev came up with this idiotic scheme should have his (chest)NUTZ roasted over an open fire .. Perhaps they'll fix it so it will actually be economically feasible for the players, new and old. But as it stands you may as well ignore it .. Lets not mention the continuation of the T2 lottery .. which was screwed up then and remains screwed up and yet, rather than fix it, they've merely reseeded and continued with the same old BS. All this for a mere $14.95/month Enjoy!
Xaildaine	Posted - 2006.12.26 15:22:00 - [23] Edited by: Xaildaine on 26/12/2006 15:23:55 Invention is here to do 3 things... none of which is "fix the T2 market" or " "Open T2 production to smaller corps" it seems. as far as i can tell the 3 are these 1 - its there as an RP sink for people to stupid to realise they are giving up a chance at a BPO 2 - Its the first step to T3 3 - Its there to give CCP the ability to say "But anyone can make T2 gear so there is no T2 manopoly".. basicly shut the T2 debate Down that has been rageing on these forums since the Lotto began. realy its a huge disapointment Worse still is the fact that it seems that CCP are quite happy with it as is.. A blog from them would go a long way imo
Doomed Predator The Phoenix Rising Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.26 15:24:00 - [24] I think invention was pre-nerfed like rigs. --------------------------------------------- The first mod to edit my sig gets a keg of beer(2 pink kegs if its done by a female) I don't like beer - Serathu Sera often mods in a dress, does that mean I can have his 2 kegs? - Cortes
James Snowscoran Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.26 15:34:00 - [25] CCP has a habit of releasing new features pre-nerfed. It's probably a design philosophy and it does have certain merits. Makes for some frustrating gameplay though. -----
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.12.26 15:34:00 - [26] Originally by: Tharrn Because it is convenient to produce your own stuff if you don't want to be forced to go to the hubs to buy ships for example. Personally I'd go for stuff like sensor boosters and EANMs if we could invent at all. Doe anyone have data regarding non-ship invention yet? It seems you only get 1-run Bpcs out of invention right now, and modules apparently require at least 2 datacores. Even if your chances of succFs were 100%, the datacore cost alone would make it not worth it... ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types.
Tharrn Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2006.12.26 15:37:00 - [27] Absolutely right - I just tried to explain why people would still want to invent even if the resulting product would be reasonably more expensive than the market :) Now recruiting!
Lisento Slaven Amarr The Drekla Consortium Kurai Komichi	Posted - 2006.12.26 16:10:00 - [28] I'd rather see less T2 equipment on the field in general. Everyone and anyone flies around in T2 this and T2 that. What are the elites supposed to fly in? --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Chenlab	Posted - 2006.12.26 16:36:00 - [29] Laaaawl, i had 8 attempts but only got 1 bpc, maybe u should be greatful for that? maybe u should just give up eve all together?
xeom Veto.	Posted - 2006.12.26 16:52:00 - [30] I sorta wana see invention stay broken just to **** off lady noir.Sence she was spouting all the crap about making billions and invention is just fine. --- "Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
Lady Noir	Posted - 2006.12.26 16:55:00 - [31] Edited by: Lady Noir on 26/12/2006 17:04:50 Edited by: Lady Noir on 26/12/2006 16:55:28 Originally by: Chenlab Laaaawl, i had 8 attempts but only got 1 bpc, maybe u should be greatful for that? maybe u should just give up eve all together? Why would i give up on EVE? Do you think we became the first to own a Ship data interface by being poor? lol! think for a second, you might get results.
Lady Noir	Posted - 2006.12.26 16:57:00 - [32] Edited by: Lady Noir on 26/12/2006 17:05:23 Edited by: Lady Noir on 26/12/2006 16:57:28 Originally by: xeom I sorta wana see invention stay broken just to **** off lady noir.Sence she was spouting all the crap about making billions and invention is just fine. Invention staying broken won't effect me. We own multiple high profit T2 BPOS. I want invention to work for the good of EVE.
Lagar Caldari Core Domination	Posted - 2006.12.26 17:06:00 - [33] I can agree on the fact that the chanse to get a T2 BPO is alittle to big but ultimatly i have to say this. Invention is NOT ment to be a replacement to T2 BPO's.. they will only give you the opertunity to get one without having to pay that corp the isk.. but it will definatly not be nessesarerly cheaper than the one's they sell.. and this is INTENTIONALY.. (sorry if i was rude to anyone but i was very tired when posting this)
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.12.26 17:33:00 - [34] Originally by: El Marchetto comon Hakera, Lady Noir has indeed posted previously, and gone and investigated the thing, right to the end, and has come back and told us EXACTLY what the story is with invention as its currently implemented, so for that the Lady deserves much credit He deserves nothing, not even to be trusted. In previous threads he has already played with numbers so much that he was called a liar more than once. Take this thread for example. Originally by: Lady Noir I don't have a T2 bpo, my corp does however have an almost ready to be built ship data interface. Originally by: Lady Noir Invention staying broken won't effect me. We own multiple high profit T2 BPOS. I want invention to work for the good of EVE. There is just no reason to believe his numbers, maybe someone else can confirm them?
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2006.12.26 17:43:00 - [35] Originally by: Lady Noir [...]So we started 5 HAC invention jobs, using one of each decryptor type, three jobs failed, the other two worked but resulted in only 1 run copies of the hac bpc.[...] maybe it's just me, but... 350mil right here?
Lady Noir	Posted - 2006.12.26 17:49:00 - [36] Edited by: Lady Noir on 26/12/2006 17:53:32 Edited by: Lady Noir on 26/12/2006 17:52:46 Originally by: Ogul Originally by: El Marchetto comon Hakera, Lady Noir has indeed posted previously, and gone and investigated the thing, right to the end, and has come back and told us EXACTLY what the story is with invention as its currently implemented, so for that the Lady deserves much credit He deserves nothing, not even to be trusted. In previous threads he has already played with numbers so much that he was called a liar more than once. Take this thread for example. Originally by: Lady Noir I don't have a T2 bpo, my corp does however have an almost ready to be built ship data interface. Originally by: Lady Noir Invention staying broken won't effect me. We own multiple high profit T2 BPOS. I want invention to work for the good of EVE. There is just no reason to believe his numbers, maybe someone else can confirm them? Maybe you should figure out the difference between I and We? BTW maybe YOU should try to confirm if i'm telling the truth? Why don't YOU go out and spend loads of RP on datacores, spend ages farmining components and searching for an interface bpc and build one, and then you can confirm this for yourself. Invention in its current state is a total waste of RP, you're better of saving up RP and hoping to win a T2 bpo, and in the meanwhile, farm belt rats or grind missions for even more isk than you could ever make from invention. Invention in it's current form is a lose/lose situation.
Doc Extropy Gallente Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.26 18:04:00 - [37] 1. Pre - nerfing is not that bad, but I wonder, why CCP almost ALWAYS seem to fail at most basic mathematics. The calculations I did to show that salvaging was too inefficient by a factor of 100 (!) did cost me about 90 seconds of my lifetime (ok, I had professional training in economic stuff, so maybe CCP want to employ some salesmen as economic consultants for New Eden?) and doing calculations for invention to show it is broken to an extreme extent won't be that hard as well with all the infos those who tried it showed us here. (The absurd 50% hp increase that was proposed first before the playerbase cried out was another example of ignoring mathematics.) CCP, next time, please do some BASIC (!) calculations before pre - nerfing, thanks. 2. Invention is, as it seems, worthless. A fig leaf for monopoly - affinity at best. It doesn't solve anything (and yes, CCP, the extreme T2 prices and the "I win" - button for a tiny minority ARE big issues!) and I guess that the Eve playerbase is not playing this game for "the invention experience". Originally by: Fortior Good things come to those who persevere.
El Marchetto	Posted - 2006.12.26 18:12:00 - [38] Originally by: Doc Extropy 1. Pre - nerfing is not that bad, but I wonder, why CCP almost ALWAYS seem to fail at most basic mathematics. The calculations I did to show that salvaging was too inefficient by a factor of 100 (!) did cost me about 90 seconds of my lifetime (ok, I had professional training in economic stuff, so maybe CCP want to employ some salesmen as economic consultants for New Eden?) and doing calculations for invention to show it is broken to an extreme extent won't be that hard as well with all the infos those who tried it showed us here. (The absurd 50% hp increase that was proposed first before the playerbase cried out was another example of ignoring mathematics.) CCP, next time, please do some BASIC (!) calculations before pre - nerfing, thanks. 2. Invention is, as it seems, worthless. A fig leaf for monopoly - affinity at best. It doesn't solve anything (and yes, CCP, the extreme T2 prices and the "I win" - button for a tiny minority ARE big issues!) and I guess that the Eve playerbase is not playing this game for "the invention experience". A fig leaf for monopoly Yes indeed Doc, how eloquently put, and so very precise at the same time
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.12.26 18:13:00 - [39] Originally by: Lady Noir Maybe you should figure out the difference between I and We? So it's technically not a lie. It is only intentionally misleading by lack of revelant information. You really don't see how your own words are contradicting yourself? Originally by: Lady Noir BTW maybe YOU should try to confirm if i'm telling the truth? Why don't YOU go out and spend loads of RP on datacores, spend ages farmining components and searching for an interface bpc and build one, and then you can confirm this for yourself. Invention in its current state is a total waste of RP, you're better of saving up RP and hoping to win a T2 bpo, and in the meanwhile, farm belt rats or grind missions for even more isk than you could ever make from invention. Invention in it's current form is a lose/lose situation. Maybe YOU should take 10 seconds to figure out why one person can not gather enough statistics to make any reasonable statements about success rates and to realize that question was not directed at you. Your whining about the rp cost of invention is even more ironic, what happened to "datacores have no value" and "And if your corp cant supply you with datacores, then you shouldn't be inventing in the first place"?
Lady Noir	Posted - 2006.12.26 18:46:00 - [40] Edited by: Lady Noir on 26/12/2006 18:48:04 Edited by: Lady Noir on 26/12/2006 18:47:36 Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Lady Noir Maybe you should figure out the difference between I and We? So it's technically not a lie. It is only intentionally misleading by lack of revelant information. You really don't see how your own words are contradicting yourself? Originally by: Lady Noir BTW maybe YOU should try to confirm if i'm telling the truth? Why don't YOU go out and spend loads of RP on datacores, spend ages farmining components and searching for an interface bpc and build one, and then you can confirm this for yourself. Invention in its current state is a total waste of RP, you're better of saving up RP and hoping to win a T2 bpo, and in the meanwhile, farm belt rats or grind missions for even more isk than you could ever make from invention. Invention in it's current form is a lose/lose situation. Maybe YOU should take 10 seconds to figure out why one person can not gather enough statistics to make any reasonable statements about success rates and to realize that question was not directed at you. Your whining about the rp cost of invention is even more ironic, what happened to "datacores have no value" and "And if your corp cant supply you with datacores, then you shouldn't be inventing in the first place"? Why say that i have access to T2 bpo's when it's just going to get people saying "hah, your a bpo owner, thats why you can get an interface!" T2 bpos had nothing to do with my ability to get a data interface. I said datacores don't cost isk if you get them from your own RP pool. You can't place a market value on datacores because nobody really knew, and even still knows how profitable invention will be, although in it's current form we know that you'd have to buy datacores for about 1m each to stand a chance to make a profit with invention, good luck finding people willing to sell them that cheap. I stand by what i said, if you need to buy datacores from the market for invention, then don't bother doing invention, because it's going to be one huge waste of your time and isk.
Olgzr Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.26 19:09:00 - [41] I think there is to much real world money being made with T2 bpos for there to be any real changes to the system. T2 availability will only really increase when there is a replacement cash cow in place for the powers that be.
Tanis Bastar Caldari Interstitial Incorporated	Posted - 2006.12.26 19:10:00 - [42] Holy Smokes, what a joke! This isn't pre-nerfed, it's pre-oblivioned. I sure don't understand why CCP would hype Invention as a major feature of Kali and then make sure that absolutely no one can or will use it. The lack of any kind of dev response or blog is also very frustrating.
Ozzie Asrail FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.26 19:13:00 - [43] Lady Noir - you have 0 credibilty after the rants you have posted against invention being too hard. How's them apples taste? -----
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.26 19:28:00 - [44] Already in August I've created a thread, discussing my suspicion that CCP does have no intention to make invention a valuable way to circumvent the T2 BPO oligopols. This would be easy to do, just make it that redicously difficult and expensive to actually create a T2 BPC, that it neither would make commercial sense, nor would contribute to any fun factor. Unfortunately my suspicion was correct. Invention is that difficult, that it is not a viable option to get T2 items out of that. It is much cheaper, to buy the T2 items from the cartells, rather than to invent them. CCP continues to protect the T2 cartell. Juwi Kotch
Jas Dor	Posted - 2006.12.26 19:28:00 - [45] Originally by: Lady Noir Edited by: Lady Noir on 26/12/2006 17:05:23 Edited by: Lady Noir on 26/12/2006 16:57:28 Originally by: xeom I sorta wana see invention stay broken just to **** off lady noir.Sence she was spouting all the crap about making billions and invention is just fine. Invention staying broken won't effect me. We own multiple high profit T2 BPOS. I want invention to work for the good of EVE. Then come loose with some BPC's already. There are regions of this game that only have safe access to the core via shuttle you know.
Lady Noir	Posted - 2006.12.26 20:02:00 - [46] Edited by: Lady Noir on 26/12/2006 20:06:56 Originally by: Ozzie Asrail Lady Noir - you have 0 credibilty after the rants you have posted against invention being too hard. How's them apples taste? Do you even know what you are talking about? Obviously not. Some were whining that it was to hard to obtain data interfaces, by this point, nobody had completed any invention jobs, my argument for invention was that data interfaces don't need to be made any easier to obtain and buid, we already had a ship interface built, and those are by far the hardest to build. Nobody whined about the actual chances of success and what type of BPC you get out of invention, because nobody knew, now that we have done quite a few invention jobs, it is obvious that the chance of a successful invention job compared to the RP cost of datacores is extremely out of wack. I know you so dearly want to find a way to make me look bad, but the truth is, this does not make me look bad atall, my whole argument in past threads was that data interface drop rates and build cost for the interface BPC's need not be made easier, and that invention up until the point that we had all tested (which was the obtaining interface bpc's and building them) was fine. What does that have to do with the fact that invention jobs have about a 15-20% success rate with maxed skills and me now coming here and stating that i believe this part of invention, ie, the end product success chance and result bpc, makes invention not worth it? Two completely seperate issues.
Jas Dor	Posted - 2006.12.26 20:05:00 - [47] Edited by: Jas Dor on 26/12/2006 20:08:56 Originally by: Olgzr I think there is to much real world money being made with T2 bpos for there to be any real changes to the system. T2 availability will only really increase when there is a replacement cash cow in place for the powers that be. Do you have actual knowledge that folks are using T2 BPO's to generate ISK to sell on E-Bay? If so CCP could be in a load of trouble. Some of the things that go on in this game, if taken for motives of real life profit, would be in violation of U.S. Federal RICO laws (also possibly various other anti money laundering and terrorist financing laws). In short if CCP knows of people making real world money off their game they need to STOP IT NOW. Diclaimer: I am an attorney in the U.S. Some of the alliance / e-bay stuff I see going on in EvE has me worried. CCP, if you have not already, get a good US law firm to look at EvE before your US assets (White Wolf) get seized. Please, I'm not joking here. We're talking about things like international money laundering, check into this before somebody has to look at Icelandic extradition laws, O.K.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.12.26 20:26:00 - [48] Originally by: Doc Extropy Pre - nerfing is not that bad, but I wonder, why CCP almost ALWAYS seem to fail at most basic mathematics. The calculations I did to show that salvaging was too inefficient by a factor of 100 (!) did cost me about 90 seconds of my lifetime (ok, I had professional training in economic stuff, so maybe CCP want to employ some salesmen as economic consultants for New Eden?) and doing calculations for invention to show it is broken to an extreme extent won't be that hard as well with all the infos those who tried it showed us here. I don't have any professional economic training, I am "only" an Automation Engineer, but you don't have to be an economist to grasp the basic concepts of supply, demand, and "hourly payment rate". The salvaging thing, in the initial form, was obviously funked up beyond belief, circuits-wise... and it is my oppinion that it's still funked up by at least a factor of 5 for circuits (yes, we STILL need 5 times more circuits as they drop now). I still wonder how a company full of people who otherwise seem to know what they're doing fail to PRE-CALCULATE something as simple as needed salvage drop rates for the desired end-effect. And on top of it all, NOT blogging about it, so we don't even KNOW the desired end-effect but we can only guess it... that makes it even worse. _ My skills \| Mod/Rig stacknerfing explained
Kopach	Posted - 2006.12.26 20:30:00 - [49] Jiekon posted in every thread but this 1 in the last hour or so. I wonder why...
Lord Lothian	Posted - 2006.12.26 20:50:00 - [50] Originally by: Kopach Jiekon posted in every thread but this 1 in the last hour or so. I wonder why... My guess is that the devs are banned from discussing this fubar invention system that they released.
Shayla Etherodyne	Posted - 2006.12.26 20:58:00 - [51] Originally by: Jas Dor Edited by: Jas Dor on 26/12/2006 20:08:56 Originally by: Olgzr I think there is to much real world money being made with T2 bpos for there to be any real changes to the system. T2 availability will only really increase when there is a replacement cash cow in place for the powers that be. Do you have actual knowledge that folks are using T2 BPO's to generate ISK to sell on E-Bay? If so CCP could be in a load of trouble. Some of the things that go on in this game, if taken for motives of real life profit, would be in violation of U.S. Federal RICO laws (also possibly various other anti money laundering and terrorist financing laws). In short if CCP knows of people making real world money off their game they need to STOP IT NOW. Diclaimer: I am an attorney in the U.S. Some of the alliance / e-bay stuff I see going on in EvE has me worried. CCP, if you have not already, get a good US law firm to look at EvE before your US assets (White Wolf) get seized. Please, I'm not joking here. We're talking about things like international money laundering, check into this before somebody has to look at Icelandic extradition laws, O.K. If you are serious, send a e-mail with some reference about the relevant laws to the Devs.
Shayla Etherodyne	Posted - 2006.12.26 21:00:00 - [52] Lad Noir - thank you for the informations. I feel it was needed, and a good new year at all ow you .
Tharrn Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2006.12.26 21:04:00 - [53] Originally by: Lady Noir Some were whining that it was to hard to obtain data interfaces, by this point, nobody had completed any invention jobs, my argument for invention was that data interfaces don't need to be made any easier to obtain and buid, we already had a ship interface built, and those are by far the hardest to build. Nobody whined about the actual chances of success and what type of BPC you get out of invention, because nobody knew, now that we have done quite a few invention jobs, it is obvious that the chance of a successful invention job compared to the RP cost of datacores is extremely out of wack. I know you so dearly want to find a way to make me look bad, but the truth is, this does not make me look bad atall, my whole argument in past threads was that data interface drop rates and build cost for the interface BPC's need not be made easier, and that invention up until the point that we had all tested (which was the obtaining interface bpc's and building them) was fine. What does that have to do with the fact that invention jobs have about a 15-20% success rate with maxed skills and me now coming here and stating that i believe this part of invention, ie, the end product success chance and result bpc, makes invention not worth it? Two completely seperate issues. You based your previous arguments on one singular data point - namely that you found an Interface BPC early on. By this logic invention would be allright if your first attempt had been a full success yielding a multi-run BPC. Obviously that didn't happen and now that part of invention is ***. There's still countless people out and about who haven't found an Interface BPC and who will run into trouble to gather the required components as more people will* try to build interfaces and have to farm the cans. You conveniently disregarded that as YOU were lucky early on - and THAT is why people are rubbing their hands in glee now over this post. Being selfcentered bites you in the arse sooner or later :P Now recruiting!
chelseaGirl UK	Posted - 2006.12.26 21:05:00 - [54] Originally by: Shayla Etherodyne Originally by: Jas Dor Edited by: Jas Dor on 26/12/2006 20:08:56 Originally by: Olgzr I think there is to much real world money being made with T2 bpos for there to be any real changes to the system. T2 availability will only really increase when there is a replacement cash cow in place for the powers that be. Do you have actual knowledge that folks are using T2 BPO's to generate ISK to sell on E-Bay? If so CCP could be in a load of trouble. Some of the things that go on in this game, if taken for motives of real life profit, would be in violation of U.S. Federal RICO laws (also possibly various other anti money laundering and terrorist financing laws). In short if CCP knows of people making real world money off their game they need to STOP IT NOW. Diclaimer: I am an attorney in the U.S. Some of the alliance / e-bay stuff I see going on in EvE has me worried. CCP, if you have not already, get a good US law firm to look at EvE before your US assets (White Wolf) get seized. Please, I'm not joking here. We're talking about things like international money laundering, check into this before somebody has to look at Icelandic extradition laws, O.K. If you are serious, send a e-mail with some reference about the relevant laws to the Devs. Frankly sir, I am not too sure CCP realy give much interest into US law as they are not a country of the USA. Iceland isnt a member of the EU either, and thus dosent have to follow EU law, ala ThePirateBay of Sweden.
Ozzie Asrail FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.26 21:10:00 - [55] Originally by: Lady Noir Edited by: Lady Noir on 26/12/2006 20:06:56 Originally by: Ozzie Asrail Lady Noir - you have 0 credibilty after the rants you have posted against invention being too hard. How's them apples taste? Do you even know what you are talking about? Obviously not. Some were whining that it was to hard to obtain data interfaces, by this point, nobody had completed any invention jobs, my argument for invention was that data interfaces don't need to be made any easier to obtain and buid, we already had a ship interface built, and those are by far the hardest to build. Nobody whined about the actual chances of success and what type of BPC you get out of invention, because nobody knew, now that we have done quite a few invention jobs, it is obvious that the chance of a successful invention job compared to the RP cost of datacores is extremely out of wack. I know you so dearly want to find a way to make me look bad, but the truth is, this does not make me look bad atall, my whole argument in past threads was that data interface drop rates and build cost for the interface BPC's need not be made easier, and that invention up until the point that we had all tested (which was the obtaining interface bpc's and building them) was fine. What does that have to do with the fact that invention jobs have about a 15-20% success rate with maxed skills and me now coming here and stating that i believe this part of invention, ie, the end product success chance and result bpc, makes invention not worth it? Two completely seperate issues. Actually... I think you are simply proving you had no idea what the earlier threads were about. The dev's had stated the Data Core would be a limiting factor in invention, they had also stated that it would be hit and miss and produce low quality bpc's. The whole point was that entering T2 production is a world largly out of the reach of alot of players. Both the initial cost and long term payback (exculding winning bpo lottery) was huge and that was the major stumbling block. Once you had got past that the effort to actually produce was negligable. Invention was supposed to be the opposite. The major factor was supposed to be the effort put in by the player. More rd missions = more datacores = more bpc's. But everyone could at least try and only the dedicated could actaully make a profit. The dev's could then ballance the datacores to make sure the t2 market didn't crash totally. Either invention is a relativly easy thing to get into and enables alot of industry players to have fun and play tech 2 producer but doesn't kill the bpo owners. Or it's hard to get into and everyone may as well save for a t2 bpo. you've jsut proved you had no interest in making eve more fun for the common player. -----
Doc Extropy Gallente Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.26 21:12:00 - [56] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Doc Extropy Pre - nerfing is not that bad, but I wonder, why CCP almost ALWAYS seem to fail at most basic mathematics. The calculations I did to show that salvaging was too inefficient by a factor of 100 (!) did cost me about 90 seconds of my lifetime (ok, I had professional training in economic stuff, so maybe CCP want to employ some salesmen as economic consultants for New Eden?) and doing calculations for invention to show it is broken to an extreme extent won't be that hard as well with all the infos those who tried it showed us here. I don't have any professional economic training, I am "only" an Automation Engineer, but you don't have to be an economist to grasp the basic concepts of supply, demand, and "hourly payment rate". The salvaging thing, in the initial form, was obviously funked up beyond belief, circuits-wise... and it is my oppinion that it's still funked up by at least a factor of 5 for circuits (yes, we STILL need 5 times more circuits as they drop now). I still wonder how a company full of people who otherwise seem to know what they're doing fail to PRE-CALCULATE something as simple as needed salvage drop rates for the desired end-effect. And on top of it all, NOT blogging about it, so we don't even KNOW the desired end-effect but we can only guess it... that makes it even worse. IMHO it should not be too easy to invent, it should require skill, skills and work. Although I find the idea of inventing T2 (I'd rather have named here) items suboptimal, as a rule of thumb I'd propose that a single, average skilled (5 million SP @ industry) char should be able to do the following things "from scratch" (without any hard to come by - prerequisites): a) Start the successful invention of a module BPC after 4 hours of effort b) Start the successful invention of an AF BPC after 6 hours, an HAC BPC after 12 hours and a command ship BPC after 15 hours of working for it in the game c) Work together with friends and / or corpmates to do things faster on a linear basis (n participants means 1/n time given the same amount of invention jobs) ----- The goal should be that T2 items / ships have a reasonable 20% margin of profit for both, the BPO owner as well as the guy who had to come up with a BPC via invention. Also, there should be no chance about "omg will I get a BPC?". Of course having the number of runs, ME and PE vary by chance would be nice and spicey. Originally by: Fortior Good things come to those who persevere.
Tharrn Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2006.12.26 21:16:00 - [57] EVE has been largely a 'no farming' game so far - no one ever HAD to farm to make a certain aspect of the game available. That has changed with invention, and it is a step in the totally wrong direction in my opinion. Now recruiting!
Ghitza Backup Squad	Posted - 2006.12.26 21:18:00 - [58] New map - eye candy, replaced old one which (FFS) wasnt bad Exploration - mostly crap, some good ideas New regions - build your new 'idustrial' backbone on 300 ore high end roids Optimizations - yay more lag... ok ppl we cut this gate stuck system it was a joke anyway... Contracts - yesss... oh wait... its crap! :/ But they will fix it... maybe Combat Boosters - buged, crap Rigs - yay so many rigs we have! master but 90% are crap! INVENTION - last thing to die is always hope, rip. Merry Christmas to all CCP workers who done their work so great... nice job.
Doc Extropy Gallente Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.26 21:18:00 - [59] Originally by: Tharrn EVE has been largely a 'no farming' game so far - no one ever HAD to farm to make a certain aspect of the game available. That has changed with invention, and it is a step in the totally wrong direction in my opinion. /signed Invention is the most wow-ish aspect this game has ever seen. Originally by: Fortior Good things come to those who persevere.
Lady Noir	Posted - 2006.12.26 21:23:00 - [60] Originally by: Tharrn Originally by: Lady Noir Some were whining that it was to hard to obtain data interfaces, by this point, nobody had completed any invention jobs, my argument for invention was that data interfaces don't need to be made any easier to obtain and buid, we already had a ship interface built, and those are by far the hardest to build. Nobody whined about the actual chances of success and what type of BPC you get out of invention, because nobody knew, now that we have done quite a few invention jobs, it is obvious that the chance of a successful invention job compared to the RP cost of datacores is extremely out of wack. I know you so dearly want to find a way to make me look bad, but the truth is, this does not make me look bad atall, my whole argument in past threads was that data interface drop rates and build cost for the interface BPC's need not be made easier, and that invention up until the point that we had all tested (which was the obtaining interface bpc's and building them) was fine. What does that have to do with the fact that invention jobs have about a 15-20% success rate with maxed skills and me now coming here and stating that i believe this part of invention, ie, the end product success chance and result bpc, makes invention not worth it? Two completely seperate issues. You based your previous arguments on one singular data point - namely that you found an Interface BPC early on. By this logic invention would be allright if your first attempt had been a full success yielding a multi-run BPC. Obviously that didn't happen and now that part of invention is ***. There's still countless people out and about who haven't found an Interface BPC and who will run into trouble to gather the required components as more people will* try to build interfaces and have to farm the cans. You conveniently disregarded that as YOU were lucky early on - and THAT is why people are rubbing their hands in glee now over this post. Being selfcentered bites you in the arse sooner or later :P You don't need to be lucky to get a data interface bpc. You can buy one a 2 run bpc from selling order forums for a few bill, then you could build one interface then either sell the remaining 1 run bpc for half the price you paid or build another interface.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.12.26 21:25:00 - [61] Originally by: Lady Noir Nobody whined about the actual chances of success and what type of BPC you get out of invention, because nobody knew, now that we have done quite a few invention jobs, it is obvious that the chance of a successful invention job compared to the RP cost of datacores is extremely out of wack. To be honest, there were some people who pointed out that the cost for datacores might be a bit unbalanced. Those where the people you laughed at, because you would never run out of datacores from your research agents. Originally by: Lady Noir For our first interface we build i alone have enough agents gathering rp that i could get enough datacores to invent FOREVER, yes, my rp will never run out. Originally by: Lady Noir I know you so dearly want to find a way to make me look bad, ... What makes you look bad are statements like this one: Originally by: Lady Noir Ahhh, i can see why you think invention is so hard now, because your a god damned noob. Invention is easy and cheap if you have even half a clue about anything in EVE. I am sure you can figure out why that is the case. Originally by: Lady Noir ... and that invention up until the point that we had all tested (which was the obtaining interface bpc's and building them) was fine. What does that have to do with the fact that invention jobs have about a 15-20% success rate with maxed skills and me now coming here and stating that i believe this part of invention, ie, the end product success chance and result bpc, makes invention not worth it? Two completely seperate issues. You went as far as to tell the devs "Invention, Don't make it any easier", not a single word about "invention as far as I have tried it" or separate issues. Don't try to spin your own words, please.
Kirjava Caldari Storm Thesis	Posted - 2006.12.26 21:26:00 - [62] Ok, this may be a hijacking of this thread, but its worth it i think. Has anyone, in any thread, dev blog or IRC, heard a mention or comment about invention since KALI/Revelations went live? Storm Thesis CEO
Doc Extropy Gallente Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.26 21:28:00 - [63] Originally by: Kirjava Ok, this may be a hijacking of this thread, but its worth it i think. Has anyone, in any thread, dev blog or IRC, heard a mention or comment about invention since KALI/Revelations went live? AFAIK: no. Otherwise we had people here telling us what was said. This thread receives A LOT of attention. Originally by: Fortior Good things come to those who persevere.
Lady Noir	Posted - 2006.12.26 21:34:00 - [64] Assuming we did no more than 1 hac invention jobs a day, our datacores would never run out, but now it turns out that only 1 job in a whole week of jobs is going to see success most of the time, if we wanted to make any worthwhile amount of isk atall from invention, we'd have to do 7 hac invention attempts per day, not per week, that's how many jobs a giant corp would have to do if they wanted even 1 hac bpc invented daily, and that's shared between a lot of people. How was i to know that ccp would screw up the invention job success chance? Although it's not all that suprising actually...
Kirjava Caldari Storm Thesis	Posted - 2006.12.26 21:34:00 - [65] What I thought, just needed it checked. Isnt it sad that they havent acknowleged the problem and said what they hope to do to fix it? Even a comment about it in a devblog that they normaly do this stuff in would have been appreciated... Common Jiekon, if you have time for this kind of jokes, why cant you reply abiut a concern many people have? Storm Thesis CEO
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.12.26 21:39:00 - [66] Originally by: Lady Noir Assuming we did no more than 1 hac invention jobs a day, our datacores would never run out, but now it turns out that only 1 job in a whole week of jobs is going to see success most of the time, if we wanted to make any worthwhile amount of isk atall from invention, we'd have to do 7 hac invention attempts per day, not per week, that's how many jobs a giant corp would have to do if they wanted even 1 hac bpc invented daily, and that's shared between a lot of people. Doesn't the amount of interfaces you have limit the number of invention jobs you can do per day?
Doc Extropy Gallente Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.26 21:41:00 - [67] Originally by: Kirjava What I thought, just needed it checked. Isnt it sad that they havent acknowleged the problem and said what they hope to do to fix it? Even a comment about it in a devblog that they normaly do this stuff in would have been appreciated... Common Jiekon, if you have time for this kind of jokes, why cant you reply abiut a concern many people have? Imagine you and your corp are camped after being wardecced in, say, Luminaere (I camped a pirate corp a while ago when I was with [C-O-F]). Now, magine you have someone in your corp who likes to talk to people on the forum very much, not only about technical issues and maybe roleplaying, but also has a loose mouth when it comes to internals and information with tactical / strategical value. Now... ask yourself, what would be your first order? Originally by: Fortior Good things come to those who persevere.
Kirjava Caldari Storm Thesis	Posted - 2006.12.26 21:46:00 - [68] Most likely this would be exploited, give the person false information to share and set up a trap, or to keep all vital information away from him. Also, very well put. Storm Thesis CEO
Adipocere	Posted - 2006.12.26 22:42:00 - [69] Lady Noir, Please edit your post to include the specific ships, decryptors and datacores used. For those without the relevent decryptors, it would be nice to include the whole description from which you quote the word 'greatly' as well (heck, include the 'lesser' version too). We'll need the actual information to analyze the issue on an apples to apples basis, not just what you consider the salient points. Thanks for your time.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2006.12.26 22:58:00 - [70] Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 26/12/2006 22:58:45 Originally by: Kirjava ... Common Jiekon, if you have time for this kind of jokes, why cant you reply abiut a concern many people have? So it was a joke? He doesn't like to be whipped?
Nate D Naughty Ambitious Temptatious Endeavours	Posted - 2006.12.26 23:00:00 - [71] Sooo... uh... how good were the T1 BPCs that you were using? -NÖ --- Voice Comms are Coming ...SoonÖ [Click]
Kirjava Caldari Storm Thesis	Posted - 2006.12.26 23:02:00 - [72] Originally by: Shameless Avenger Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 26/12/2006 22:58:45 Originally by: Kirjava ... Common Jiekon, if you have time for this kind of jokes, why cant you reply abiut a concern many people have? So it was a joke? He doesn't like to be whipped? Well its not my business what he gets up to in his spare time, my point was towards why hasnt the invention been addresed in some medium as of yet? Storm Thesis CEO
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.26 23:08:00 - [73] Originally by: Nate D Sooo... uh... how good were the T1 BPCs that you were using? -NÖ More to the point, could you post the exact items used, the ME/PE of the BPC, etc used? Raptor and Ares Fix
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2006.12.26 23:18:00 - [74] Does the Quality of the BPC used affects the outcome?
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.12.27 00:28:00 - [75] Originally by: Lady Noir Edited by: Lady Noir on 26/12/2006 14:29:51 For our first invention test, we did 5 hac invention jobs, we have encryption skills at level 5, starship engineering and mechanical engineering at level 5, we have been using the T1 version of the ship. So we started 5 HAC invention jobs, using one of each decryptor type, three jobs failed, the other two worked but resulted in only 1 run copies of the hac bpc. We just finished 8 more invention jobs, this time we used assault frigates. For the first 4 we used the decryptor which gives the best possible chance at success of an invention job. For the last 4 jobs we used the decryptor type that claims to multiply the runs of the output T2 bpc "greatly" The first 4 jobs all failed, nice waste of time and effort there, those were using the supposedly "increases probability of a successful invention job to the best possible chance" decryptors. Best chance of success? They ALL failed! Out of the final 4 jobs, 3 failed, 1 succeeded, we got a -8 me -3 pe 1 run bpc of an assault frigate. WTF? This was using the decryptor that supposedly multiplies the runs of the output bpc "greatly". Overall, 7 out of 8 jobs failed. We got a 1 run bpc out of the one that succeeded, and that was using a decryptor that supposedly multiplies the number of runs of the T2 bpc greatly, yeah right to that. What a complete and utter waste of time, lucky we tested using assualt frigates this time and not HAC's huh? We will continue to do testing but results take time as invention jobs take time to complete, don't expect anything groundbreaking tbh. CCP mesed up with invention, BIG TIME! Incase it hasn't been said, I'd like to point out you were bashing us in another thread for telling you invention was screwed up. Now you know it's not just item collections for it that is useless. Still think you're going to be making all those billions? Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.12.27 00:46:00 - [76] Originally by: Lady Noir Originally by: Tharrn But datacores are free you said! Yes, well done, they are free, but 160 datacores takes a long time to get. A very long time. They are not free. when you realize that time = money, is not just a random saying, Tharrn and others are going to stop making fun of you for it... Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.12.27 00:48:00 - [77] Originally by: Lisento Slaven I'd rather see less T2 equipment on the field in general. Everyone and anyone flies around in T2 this and T2 that. What are the elites supposed to fly in? Officer fitted faction ships? /me points at people like Farjung. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.12.27 00:49:00 - [78] Originally by: Lady Noir Edited by: Lady Noir on 26/12/2006 17:04:50 Edited by: Lady Noir on 26/12/2006 16:55:28 Originally by: Chenlab Laaaawl, i had 8 attempts but only got 1 bpc, maybe u should be greatful for that? maybe u should just give up eve all together? Why would i give up on EVE? Do you think we became the first to own a Ship data interface by being poor? lol! think for a second, you might get results. You seem mighty confident that you were the first. The loudest yes, but you have now way of knowing if you were the first. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.12.27 01:00:00 - [79] Originally by: Kirjava Originally by: Shameless Avenger Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 26/12/2006 22:58:45 Originally by: Kirjava ... Common Jiekon, if you have time for this kind of jokes, why cant you reply abiut a concern many people have? So it was a joke? He doesn't like to be whipped? Well its not my business what he gets up to in his spare time, my point was towards why hasnt the invention been addresed in some medium as of yet? Perhaps they'd rather fix the problem than talk to us about it? Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Nathanial Victor	Posted - 2006.12.27 01:30:00 - [80] how to be Lady Noir in three steps: step 1: make thread about how invention should be difficult and not made ANY easier. how nothing is wrong with invention and how much isk you are going to make off it (be sure to argue w/ anyone that tries to talk sense into you and reply after every post!) step 2: realize invention is jacked up and begin to create new thread telling everyone about it (be sure to argue w/ anyone that tries to talk sense into you and reply after every post!) step 3: repeat step 2 until your fingers bleed. (AGAIN: be sure to argue w/ anyone that tries to talk sense into you and reply after every post!)
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.12.27 01:56:00 - [81] I bet that this thread will stand firm as a monument to irony and hybris. And yes indeed, i said "will stand", not "is standing".
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2006.12.27 03:04:00 - [82] Originally by: Nathanial Victor how to be Lady Noir in three steps: step 1: make thread about how invention should be difficult and not made ANY easier. how nothing is wrong with invention and how much isk you are going to make off it (be sure to argue w/ anyone that tries to talk sense into you and reply after every post!) step 2: realize invention is jacked up and begin to create new thread telling everyone about it (be sure to argue w/ anyone that tries to talk sense into you and reply after every post!) step 3: repeat step 2 until your fingers bleed. (AGAIN: be sure to argue w/ anyone that tries to talk sense into you and reply after every post!) Sounds about right. As to invention itself, it's too bad that so many CCP employees own T2 BPOs, it creates a real disincentive to fix the system.
Malibu Stacey Gallente Playboy Enterprises	Posted - 2006.12.27 03:46:00 - [83] Edited by: Malibu Stacey on 27/12/2006 03:48:11 Originally by: Jas Dor Do you have actual knowledge that folks are using T2 BPO's to generate ISK to sell on E-Bay? If so CCP could be in a load of trouble. Some of the things that go on in this game, if taken for motives of real life profit, would be in violation of U.S. Federal RICO laws (also possibly various other anti money laundering and terrorist financing laws). In short if CCP knows of people making real world money off their game they need to STOP IT NOW. Diclaimer: I am an attorney in the U.S. Some of the alliance / e-bay stuff I see going on in EvE has me worried. CCP, if you have not already, get a good US law firm to look at EvE before your US assets (White Wolf) get seized. Please, I'm not joking here. We're talking about things like international money laundering, check into this before somebody has to look at Icelandic extradition laws, O.K. CCP is an Icelandic company with an office in the UK. The game server cluster is hosted in London AFAIK which is probably why they have the UK office. Little hint: US laws don't apply outside of the USA but then you knew that already since you're an "attorney". People can look at Icelandic extradition laws all they want but if the people accused of breaking your laws don't live in Iceland they'll be looking in the wrong place. The White Wolf merger has nothing to do with Eve Online as far as I am aware, it is to do with EVE: The Second Genesis, the collectible card game 'inspired' by EVE Online & the future development of an online game based in White Wolf's "World of Darkness" universe. Originally by: Shayla Etherodyne If you are serious, send a e-mail with some reference about the relevant laws to the Devs. I don't think they'd care very much. --- Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Tokra	Posted - 2006.12.27 03:59:00 - [84] Some of you must be really stupid. Lady Noir came here and posted all of the infos they gathered. All the work they have done and all the money they spend into it. And all this to inform you, to warn you, and to wake up CCP and show them that it is screwed. She could have say nothing. Notice it dont work but keep silence and let you run into the mess as well. I am thankfull at least, it saves me alot of time and work. Saying the Datainterface isnt hard to get sound a bit strange when i see what you have to do for it. I was hoping that invention made it possible for me to make some own T2 items, and dont have to buy them for this much money in the market. Or even to make a bit money with my useless RPs (sure, lotto. but chances to get a T2 BPO are still low, so i may end at all my RPs again without being able to spend them for a BPO). But after i first saw how expensive it will be to invent a BPC (Datacore wise) it was the first shock. Second the info that the Datainterface will be way to expensive for the common player. And now that the invention will fail this often that its total waste of time was the last nail. 3-6 month worth of RP points (for a single person with research in the right fields) just for the chance for one HAC BPC? And even worse. Its a single run BPC. No thx, than i will just go on with normal playing and keep buying my T2 stuff. Even with this prices it will be cheaper doing it this way.
TheFirstInquisitor	Posted - 2006.12.27 12:48:00 - [85] Originally by: Malibu Stacey Edited by: Malibu Stacey on 27/12/2006 03:48:11 Originally by: Jas Dor Do you have actual knowledge that folks are using T2 BPO's to generate ISK to sell on E-Bay? If so CCP could be in a load of trouble. Some of the things that go on in this game, if taken for motives of real life profit, would be in violation of U.S. Federal RICO laws (also possibly various other anti money laundering and terrorist financing laws). In short if CCP knows of people making real world money off their game they need to STOP IT NOW. Diclaimer: I am an attorney in the U.S. Some of the alliance / e-bay stuff I see going on in EvE has me worried. CCP, if you have not already, get a good US law firm to look at EvE before your US assets (White Wolf) get seized. Please, I'm not joking here. We're talking about things like international money laundering, check into this before somebody has to look at Icelandic extradition laws, O.K. CCP is an Icelandic company with an office in the UK. The game server cluster is hosted in London AFAIK which is probably why they have the UK office. Little hint: US laws don't apply outside of the USA but then you knew that already since you're an "attorney". People can look at Icelandic extradition laws all they want but if the people accused of breaking your laws don't live in Iceland they'll be looking in the wrong place. The White Wolf merger has nothing to do with Eve Online as far as I am aware, it is to do with EVE: The Second Genesis, the collectible card game 'inspired' by EVE Online & the future development of an online game based in White Wolf's "World of Darkness" universe. Originally by: Shayla Etherodyne If you are serious, send a e-mail with some reference about the relevant laws to the Devs. I don't think they'd care very much. Very True. And Jas, please brush up on EU laws and a little background on the "Natwest 3" from the UK, you will notice a lot of resentment / concern over the lack of the USA law rattifying the extradition treaty that UK has already sighned. Note to all, What I say may be infact of a more humorous tone than comes accross.
Shabesa	Posted - 2006.12.27 13:52:00 - [86] Originally by: Tharrn EVE has been largely a 'no farming' game so far - no one ever HAD to farm to make a certain aspect of the game available. That has changed with invention, and it is a step in the totally wrong direction in my opinion. Yea well, I heard Serenity wasn't doing too good.
Chochko KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.27 14:32:00 - [87] Sorry for this - may be i`ll get a warning but.... i need to say what i think. Lady Noir - You are absolute moron and idiot. Week before you were trying to convince us that Invention is OK, than you dont have t2 BPO. Now You try to convince us that invention is NOT OK and you HAVE couple of HIGH profit t2 BPO`s. There are special medical centers which treat retards like you with care. Plz ask someone to bring you there because i`m sure that you will be unable to find the way. -------------------------------------------
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2006.12.27 14:46:00 - [88] Its standard practice to heavily prenerf anything new. Im sure invention will have hte kinks worked out soon. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.27 14:50:00 - [89] Lady Noir is a liar. Full stop. Proven in earlier threads, I perosnally wouldnt believe a bloody word he says. As for invention, its very very broken, and in fact is totally uselss. Not enough BPCs BPCs ridiculously hard to create Results from invention are not financially viable KIA EVE Home
subvert	Posted - 2006.12.27 14:59:00 - [90] I think everyone agrees atm that invention is useless in its current form
Lord WarATron Amarr Vanguard Frontiers Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.27 15:12:00 - [91] The policy of prenerf is a intresting one. If veldspar was released today prenerfed, it would recycle a batch into 1 trit. Then you would have forum warriors saying that 1 trit is fine for its purpose, and that they should be happy as it is "free" --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Mirirar Caldari Solstice Systems Development Concourse	Posted - 2006.12.28 02:47:00 - [92] Edited by: Mirirar on 28/12/2006 02:47:23 LadyNoir/KiaEddz - have you tried using "Installation Guides" (greatly increases chance of success) or "Interface Alignments" (greatly increase number of runs)? They seem to do the trick..............
Lady Noir	Posted - 2006.12.28 05:13:00 - [93] Edited by: Lady Noir on 28/12/2006 05:14:33 Originally by: Mirirar Edited by: Mirirar on 28/12/2006 02:47:23 LadyNoir/KiaEddz - have you tried using "Installation Guides" (greatly increases chance of success) or "Interface Alignments" (greatly increase number of runs)? They seem to do the trick.............. Caldari decryptors don't work on gallente jobs, but i have tried every serpentis decryptor many times. You could you please elaborate a bit? If you really ARE doing invention, i'd have thought you would have realised that...
Jas Dor	Posted - 2006.12.28 05:38:00 - [94] Originally by: Malibu Stacey Edited by: Malibu Stacey on 27/12/2006 03:48:11 Originally by: Jas Dor Do you have actual knowledge that folks are using T2 BPO's to generate ISK to sell on E-Bay? If so CCP could be in a load of trouble. Some of the things that go on in this game, if taken for motives of real life profit, would be in violation of U.S. Federal RICO laws (also possibly various other anti money laundering and terrorist financing laws). In short if CCP knows of people making real world money off their game they need to STOP IT NOW. Diclaimer: I am an attorney in the U.S. Some of the alliance / e-bay stuff I see going on in EvE has me worried. CCP, if you have not already, get a good US law firm to look at EvE before your US assets (White Wolf) get seized. Please, I'm not joking here. We're talking about things like international money laundering, check into this before somebody has to look at Icelandic extradition laws, O.K. CCP is an Icelandic company with an office in the UK. The game server cluster is hosted in London AFAIK which is probably why they have the UK office. Little hint: US laws don't apply outside of the USA but then you knew that already since you're an "attorney". People can look at Icelandic extradition laws all they want but if the people accused of breaking your laws don't live in Iceland they'll be looking in the wrong place. The White Wolf merger has nothing to do with Eve Online as far as I am aware, it is to do with EVE: The Second Genesis, the collectible card game 'inspired' by EVE Online & the future development of an online game based in White Wolf's "World of Darkness" universe. Originally by: Shayla Etherodyne If you are serious, send a e-mail with some reference about the relevant laws to the Devs. I don't think they'd care very much. Hum I should but I don't want to be seen as representing CCP for malpractice reasons (saying that CCP should consult an attorney is unlikely to give rise to an attorney client relationship, privately quoting statute and verse to them might). But yes, off the top of my head I can think of several US financial laws that openly allowing E-Bay selling of in game items might violate. As to what the US government can do to CCP, well for starters add them to the SDN (specially designated nationals) list which would stop most major credit card companies from processing payments to CCP.
Draqun Caldari Wo Zhi Dao Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.28 07:11:00 - [95] Edited by: Draqun on 28/12/2006 07:11:37 Originally by: Xaildaine Worse still is the fact that it seems that CCP are quite happy with it as is.. A blog from them would go a long way imo Yes they are quite happy with it as is you see they also play the game, they knew the rest of us would sit their and churn out our RP into this and then a few days latter they would toss in more T2 into the lottory. that way they can sit back and say Hey! we were fair about it since we use the lottory! Never mind that they bascialy knew in advance that they would be redoing the lottory, and thus with their bigger RP pool from NOT playing the "Invention Scam" they stand a better chance at nailing each BP. Same basicaly goes for the new Exploration/kill Mission complexes, they knew they would be pre-nerfed as far as the payout for it, so they sit back, let others go for it and lose (in many cases) a lot of ships for basicaly crap rewards. Its a CCPvP game. Get over it. --------------------------------------- First rule of playing EVE online If your too paranoid to play Eve your not paranoid enough to play Eve
SSandra	Posted - 2006.12.28 07:23:00 - [96] I am severely upset with EVERYTHING I have seen and heard about invention so far. And to think I used to be excited about it. Pfft!
MECTO Xenobytes Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.28 07:48:00 - [97] Invention is a joke It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it? Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
Kirjava Caldari Storm Thesis	Posted - 2006.12.28 11:32:00 - [98] Originally by: MECTO Invention is a joke It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it? Invention, yes is a joke. Rokh, Drake and other fun new BPO that can be exploited by building large stocks of trit and using cheap Zynd, is also a joke. It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it? Storm Thesis CEO
Reiisha Satal's Legion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.28 12:22:00 - [99] Originally by: Lady Noir Originally by: Jim McGregor I think its by design. If you could easily invent something, the market would be flooded with new ships, removing any profit margin the sellers have today. So they probably intentionally made it quite difficult to make sure that successful inventions are rare, in order to not kill the t2 economy completely. At least it sounds logical to me. I can understand that its not fun though... spending all that time for something chance based, and then failing at it with no option to get time/stuff back. If it is by design to fail 7 out of 8 times with invention then they should just remove invention now and free up some server load, as it currently stands nobody is going to invent anything. With your chances of getting a bpc being above 15%, that's actually rather good. The profit margin is still there, but somewhat less than with a bpo, as it should be. EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
Lady Noir	Posted - 2006.12.28 12:33:00 - [100] Originally by: Reiisha Originally by: Lady Noir Originally by: Jim McGregor I think its by design. If you could easily invent something, the market would be flooded with new ships, removing any profit margin the sellers have today. So they probably intentionally made it quite difficult to make sure that successful inventions are rare, in order to not kill the t2 economy completely. At least it sounds logical to me. I can understand that its not fun though... spending all that time for something chance based, and then failing at it with no option to get time/stuff back. If it is by design to fail 7 out of 8 times with invention then they should just remove invention now and free up some server load, as it currently stands nobody is going to invent anything. With your chances of getting a bpc being above 15%, that's actually rather good. The profit margin is still there, but somewhat less than with a bpo, as it should be. 16 datacores per hac invention job, 8 tries to get one success, so it should cost 100k starship RP and 30k+ mechanical engineering RP to make a 1 run copy of a HAC? I'd rather hold out for a T2 bpo thanks.
TanSpectra	Posted - 2006.12.28 12:50:00 - [101] Lol vast fortunes to be made from invention. Even if it worked that would not be true the limitting factor being the datacores used in invention. Just about everyone gets a starship agent and you get 3 time the rp's so those cores are going to be common, but mech engineering lol there about 20M allready and as ppl realize they are rare the price is going to go up. So how much does it cost to invent a AF 2 starship cores and 2 mech eng cores, about 46M and you can sell it for around 20M gosh. So even if invention worked perfectly (every time) and somehow you could get up to say 3 run bpc's ocassionly, you still would not make your fortune. Yeah fix invention its not going to unbalance the game, T2 bpos may lead to mega isk but inventions never going to, all people can make is a modest profit.
Pinpisa Jormao	Posted - 2006.12.29 11:34:00 - [102] define:invention "An act of creativity that results in a device, process, or technique novel enough to produce a significant change in the application of technology." Per the definition of invention, the fix is to simply make the invention success rate much smaller and when you finally do succeed, you get a BPO, not BPC. There is nothing in the definition of invention that says that you forget what you invented soon after (forgetting meaning getting a BPC). It might be reasonable to limit this in a way that the BPO gained from invention will only be usable by the char who invented it. eg. no selling of invented BPOs.
Kirjava Caldari Storm Thesis	Posted - 2006.12.29 11:54:00 - [103] Originally by: Pinpisa Jormao define:invention "An act of creativity that results in a device, process, or technique novel enough to produce a significant change in the application of technology." Per the definition of invention, the fix is to simply make the invention success rate much smaller and when you finally do succeed, you get a BPO, not BPC. There is nothing in the definition of invention that says that you forget what you invented soon after (forgetting meaning getting a BPC). It might be reasonable to limit this in a way that the BPO gained from invention will only be usable by the char who invented it. eg. no selling of invented BPOs. It has been mentioned numerous times that the system of invention would suggest BPO production due to the low risk and high input required. However, they should be low ME level and low PE to compensate, make them take a while to research up to full level (zero). But making them only usable by those who made them, that isnt in the ethos of Eve methinks. Storm Thesis CEO
Winters Chill Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2006.12.29 13:35:00 - [104] Simple, CCP have stated several times that they release things pre nerfed and buff as required.
Riggwelter Caldari Drinkers Appreciation Soiciety	Posted - 2006.12.29 13:51:00 - [105] My own personal opinion here is that your looking about doing this the wrong way. Ive spent 2 days since christmas scanning in 0.0 for complexs so far ive found about 10. From some of these complex the following have been obtained. Datacores 1 or 5 of three differnt types A BPC for Esoteric Data Interface and an Interface Alignment Chart. Only thing im missing to start iventing is the parts to Make the interface and a well researched BPC. Whats it cost me so far a lot of probes some time and a lot of fun. I still have all my RP with my empire agents and intend to keep it that way. Before you go asking for changes recognise that cashing in RP is not the only way to get the Datacores.
TiraX Caldari FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.29 14:46:00 - [106] What about modules, have anyone tried to invent those? Do they require the same amount of rp as ships? Otherwise their might be profit in those. And ccp will probably buff iventions further on, think about what would happend if they made it too good. I could break the current market, and I don't think the devs has any plans for this until tech 3. ----
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.12.29 15:32:00 - [107] Originally by: Riggwelter My own personal opinion here is that your looking about doing this the wrong way. Ive spent 2 days since christmas scanning in 0.0 for complexs so far ive found about 10. From some of these complex the following have been obtained. Datacores 1 or 5 of three differnt types A BPC for Esoteric Data Interface and an Interface Alignment Chart. Only thing im missing to start iventing is the parts to Make the interface and a well researched BPC. Whats it cost me so far a lot of probes some time and a lot of fun. I still have all my RP with my empire agents and intend to keep it that way. Before you go asking for changes recognise that cashing in RP is not the only way to get the Datacores. If you need to spend 2 days to acquire a handful of datacores, this might be a nice gimmick, but it can never be a decent supply.
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.29 16:41:00 - [108] Anyone saying that any item in Eve is free is by nature excempt from being taken seriously when discussing the economics of the game. Doing it over several threads thankfully only serves as a better warning sign for the rest of us.
Magnus Card Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.29 17:10:00 - [109] Originally by: Lady Noir Originally by: Reiisha Originally by: Lady Noir Originally by: Jim McGregor I think its by design. If you could easily invent something, the market would be flooded with new ships, removing any profit margin the sellers have today. So they probably intentionally made it quite difficult to make sure that successful inventions are rare, in order to not kill the t2 economy completely. At least it sounds logical to me. I can understand that its not fun though... spending all that time for something chance based, and then failing at it with no option to get time/stuff back. If it is by design to fail 7 out of 8 times with invention then they should just remove invention now and free up some server load, as it currently stands nobody is going to invent anything. With your chances of getting a bpc being above 15%, that's actually rather good. The profit margin is still there, but somewhat less than with a bpo, as it should be. 16 datacores per hac invention job, 8 tries to get one success, so it should cost 100k starship RP and 30k+ mechanical engineering RP to make a 1 run copy of a HAC? I'd rather hold out for a T2 bpo thanks. Last time I checked datacores sell for 5-10 mil ISK or so. 160 datacores = 800 mil -1.6 Bil ISK. Not exactly a good profit margin when the BPC you get is only 1 run and sells for only a few hundred million ISK. Still rockin as a !
Vidar Kentoran Minmatar Provenance.	Posted - 2006.12.29 17:32:00 - [110] Edited by: Vidar Kentoran on 29/12/2006 17:34:10 Originally by: "Jas Dor" legal nonsense Are you kidding me? Damn, I've seen some insanity on mmog boards before, but I'd have to say that you take the cake. You're aware that RMT(real money trade) takes place in EVERY SINGLE MMORPG ON THE MARKET, right? You're also aware that it occurs in much larger volume in completely US (as well as korean-based) MMOGs that exceed EVE's subscriber base by orders of magnitude(hi2u, WoW), also, right? Furthermore, you're aware that there exist and have existed MMOGs like Project Entropia and Second Life where RMT is not only condoned, but it is the very essence of how the game is played? There are people documented by the media who have made hundreds of thousands of dollars in Second Life, and heck, I believe there was a story about its first millionaire recently. Yet I have never heard a single peep out of a credible legal source about anything you're talking about, and there are NUMEROUS actually intelligent legal people watching MMOGs due to the tax situations that may occur in the future. money laundering, lol, I say this kindly, since you're obviously a troll: STFU and leave this thread alone. The idea that CCP has anything to worry about regarding US money laundering laws is a blatant and absurd joke, so far from reality I can't imagine anyone with even a slight inkling of legal competence would do anything but laugh out loud at the very mention of it.
Rman	Posted - 2006.12.29 17:38:00 - [111] 7 out of 8 is pretty good. 7 out of 1000 is pretty bad.
Crowbiwan Caldari N.A.G.A Corporation	Posted - 2006.12.29 20:52:00 - [112] Originally by: Rman 7 out of 8 is pretty good. 7 out of 1000 is pretty bad. read more carefully. she was talking about failures not succeses. 7 failures out of 8 atempts. thats not good by any standard
Kirjava Caldari Storm Thesis	Posted - 2006.12.30 14:30:00 - [113] Originally by: Crowbiwan Originally by: Rman 7 out of 8 is pretty good. 7 out of 1000 is pretty bad. read more carefully. she was talking about failures not succeses. 7 failures out of 8 atempts. thats not good by any standard Does this mean that there are more interfaces dropping more often now? Also, what are the building reuirements now, have they gone down at all? Storm Thesis CEO
Sunaria	Posted - 2006.12.30 23:35:00 - [114] hey I found the mimatar tuner interface , the drops will become more common if you ask me
TheNecromancer Caldari The Royal Order The Scandinavian Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.31 13:41:00 - [115] I vote for delete invention and free server resources.
ForceMajeure	Posted - 2006.12.31 14:56:00 - [116] Being an Engineer IRL.... When we publish blueprints and copy them the copies never disappear magically when the powerplant is built... Anyway, after reading all 4 pages of this there are two large hurdles. 1. The cost/time to build the interface. 2. The value of datacores in RPs vs the profit/success of invention. Alone either one would be fine. Having the interfaces be very difficult to build will keep only allow the most dedicated people/corps to obtain them. This would ensure that the t2 Market would maintain a healthy profit margin. Having the datacores be "expensive" in terms of opportunity cost, and time with a research agent, when coupled with low success rates makes invention relativly unprofitable. So, IMO invention should go one of three ways: 1. Data Interfaces become easier to obtain, and the cost of datacores/success rate of BPCs reamains un touched. Allowing a large group of players to perform invention, but in such a way that at a given price it would be cheaper or easier to just buy the T2. 2. Data Interfaces remain difficult to obtain, but the RP cost of datacores are reduced or the datacore required for invention is reduced. The BPC success rate remains unchanged. Allows a smaller group of players to invent, but makes it slightly more profitable than now as to significantly reduce (not eliminate) the insane T2 profits. 3. Data Interfaces remain difficult to obtain, Datacore remain "expensive", and the BPC success rate is improved. Similiar to #2 allows a small group to invent, but makes it slightly more profitable than now as to significantly reduce (not eliminate) the insane T2 profits. I personally feel that #1 is the best option. It allows all players the opportunity to invent. Datacores are valuable and in demand, and thus people will cash-in RPs to sell them The "cost" of invention/building the T2 items would be high enough to ensure the T2 BPO holders still make more than they could ever spend.

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