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Espionage and Manipulation - Where should be stopped?

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Louis DelaBlanche Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:47:00 - [31] Originally by: Acwron But once you use totally unrelated "alts" you are using out of game mechanics. And yes I think it was wrong that CCP encouraged this because you stop playing the game with the agendas of the characters and start only using the ones of the player. This degrades the characters to tools. You don't have to account for your actions and history because it does not reflect back on your actual identity. I don't think this is what CCP had orginally in mind. Very valid point. The proliferation of alts does seem to have degraded the value of individual characters to merely the sum of their skillpoints.
Hakera Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:48:00 - [32] My opinions are that whilst all forms of espionage exist in the real world, its different as we have many more controls, both socially, morally and legally that limit the scale of the abuse, such is not possible in eve. If we take the normal 'sins' in eve, spying, stealing and sabotage. Spying is fairly common, I could with fair ease, reveal and share most of the secrets of my company with minimal risk of being identified. Leaking information is fairly common and consequences of such actions are being fired and jail if the information has damaged the company. In eve, an identified mole can be removed from the corp/alliance and thats about it realistically, there is no other consequence of their action as you can rarely identify who the player is behind the character without OOG methods. There is comparible difficulty in identifying said mole in both 'realities'. Stealing carries a much heavier consequence, items that are missing can typcially be traced. In my rl work, I deal with millions of money daily, every payment I make is checked by different authorisation levels before being released. Every past payment can be traced and every change in shares or options of any security is checked by same said managers above me before approval. Outside work I could steal stuff in general, but getting caught and the penalties if caught are enough of a deterrant to stop me. In eve, items can easily be stolen bar locked down blueprints with very minimal auditing that only provides the first level of control in knowing where it went to, but there is no authority bar GM's who has the power to get it back. There is no consequence bar the reputation if you do steal unlike in real life. Sabotage....offline pos, shoot corp members in safe space etc etc. Same as stealing no consequences bar reputation which in eve tends to be one of glorification. But we must also cover forum and ts disruption. Many in eve draw the line that such acts are ingame however many alliances and individuals see it as fine to disrupt external applications whether through hacking, ddos, blocking channels, invading channels, stealing bandwidth. The majority again simply put ingame sabotage to lame but allowable. The question of morality, what does it matter where the culpability and consequence is through the barrier of the internet, where I do not have to look at the person I steal from or disrupt. Killing is ok, but stealing, deception and sabotage are not but is that because killing is a game mechanic, yet the rest are failings in the simple game mechanics trying to imitate real systems of control and ther ultimate question of trust in a game where you never may really know your fellow corpmates. To finish of this ramble, the question of virtual assets having real value and therefore provisions of protection under real law has been raised constantly these last few years in the world of mmorpgs. One day, stealing my eve stuff may well be a RL crime!
Wild Rho Amarr Black Omega Security	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:48:00 - [33] Hacking a forums is fairly different from the other infiltration as it is a more aggressive/offensive method and is as you said, illegal. Other means though are more a case of someone giving you access (under false pretences granted) but even so, if you can't see the difference there's not alot more that can be said. Personally I'm very 50/50 on this from being on both sides at one point or another. On one hand I think it's great that actual espionage is a very real tool of war in pvp beyond big fleets, players move about like agents doing their damage from moral, info leaked to actual sabotage of corp assets. On the other hand there is no real way to stop a truely determined player and there are no tools ccp can provide as protection or even retaliation (I think attending a rl meetup of people you intend to screw over is a little creepy but that's a personal opinion) and I think this can really ruin the game for some (and this is a game when you get right down to it). In the end I think it gives events in Eve alot more flavour (the infamous GSHC scam being a notable example) where a players moral stance is not enforced by some form of game mechanics as well as providing another aspect of a corp/alliance that can seperate a good corp from a bad one. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:49:00 - [34] My opinion has always been. Its a game, keep things in game. No hacking websites, no lying to get access to areas outside the game. People will always try to justify their positions, but this one is easy for me. Play the game, and the game is not played on someone elses forums or their voice server.
Shirei Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:50:00 - [35] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 02/01/2007 20:32:02I draw the limit where the law lies. Resorting to hacking someones Web/Vent/Ts servers is just poor. The law allows many things the vast majority of the EVE community would find repulsive though, for example it is completely legal to: - ebay a character in a hostile corp/alliance to use it for spying - fund your whole cap fleet with RL $$$ (assuming you have way too much RL $$$, are insanely bored and really can't find anything better to do ) - in some jurisdictions even gain access to a TS/web-server by hacking (provided you don't cause economic damage in the process) Where do you draw the line?
KIATheClash Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:50:00 - [36] Certain information that has been gatherd by spying shouldnt eb released . One player was already driven from a game by that and yet people dont take lessons . Ofc spying is a go but idd there are borders to be drawn imo and CCP also should help in that cuz it really can affect or hurt teh feelings to a person BEHIND teh avatar . CCP already have failed to response once to serious form of abuse of intel gatherd and just let peeps go on with it . Personal stuff should be let out simple , if not = instaban . Mods this is currently my main .
Nyx Opet Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:50:00 - [37] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 02/01/2007 20:32:02 I draw the limit where the law lies. Resorting to hacking someones Web/Vent/Ts servers is just poor. Disrupting teamspeak/vent chatter by singing if you manage to find their Pw the legal way, ie from a member with access is reasonably okay though, al though im not a fan of this tactic. I'm all in favor of manipulation and infiltration though, makes eve interesting. I wish CCP would add game mechanics to do/control this though. Ie items stolen through corp thefts are flagged as stolen and require certain acts to be flagged as normal so that they can be sold on the market or flown into empire. Character histories, names, faces, etc should be forge able but also be traceable with the right tools/skills/contacts. I agree with this completely (especially the last line). That which breaks laws would be unacceptable. However, manipulation and deceit are what makes the game so dynamic (also part of what drew me to the game). The only problem is that it is too easy and absolutely no accountability. There needs to be a way to track mischievous deeds of alts and accounts so actions are accountable, though it may take some in-game investigative work. I believe this is what makes some people find spying of any sort unacceptable; it is because you cannot trace it back to anyone. Of course, it still should be possible to evade capture. Besides, alliances needs something to be wary of besides big guns. --- What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion.
Elisca Black Gallente Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:52:00 - [38] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Originally by: Elisca Black Personally, as a person though I could not be that grey. Even though i've shot CE and G and D2 my entire eve career, I could still have a beer with you guys and have fun. However, I wouldnt pretend I was an alliance mate, I would just tell you straight, i'm gonna blow all your stuff up. Maybe we are different, but for some of us EVE and friends is something that is compatible. And im not even an inet-loser Its not me not being able to divide between EVE and RL. The person that visits a RL meeting and plays a mate just to gain information for a game is not able to do that in my oppinion. And there is the border for me personally. Was it a "eve" meeting? If they called you (phone) and said "hey, realname wanna go for a beer?" id say that is different.
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:53:00 - [39] Those of you that say, the line = the law ... are just morally lazy. Put some thought into your positions.
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:58:00 - [40] Originally by: Elisca Black Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Originally by: Elisca Black Personally, as a person though I could not be that grey. Even though i've shot CE and G and D2 my entire eve career, I could still have a beer with you guys and have fun. However, I wouldnt pretend I was an alliance mate, I would just tell you straight, i'm gonna blow all your stuff up. Maybe we are different, but for some of us EVE and friends is something that is compatible. And im not even an inet-loser Its not me not being able to divide between EVE and RL. The person that visits a RL meeting and plays a mate just to gain information for a game is not able to do that in my oppinion. And there is the border for me personally. Was it a "eve" meeting? If they called you (phone) and said "hey, realname wanna go for a beer?" id say that is different. Im just talking about some guys having a blast in RL and getting a chance to get known to each other better than that would be able via TS or only chat. --------------------------------
Troubadour Slacker Industries	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:58:00 - [41] Before you can deem something legal or illegal you need an official law(s) or legal reference recognized by both parties and any third parties involved. If said Teamspeak service is functioning on a machine outside of the political entity the defendant is a citizen of, then no action can be taken in any court as no court would have the proper jurisdiction without an expedition. A failure of a system administrator to properly secure his Teamspeak server is an issue for him to deal with privately. Unless the events in question involve explicit abuse or breaking of EVE-ONLINE game mechanics or the EULA, then it should be considered part of the game and intended gameplay. CCP does not care if a person hacks and invades your teamspeak or ventrillo and spams it. Why should CCP care? It's YOUR PROBLEM. It has nothing to do with EVE other then the fact you may know each other from the game. It's like trying to ask AOL to catch child molesters that prey on children through AIM. Lying, deception, spying, corp theft... it's a part of the game. If you fall prey to it, it is your own lack social skills and not CCP's fault. EVE is a game about people and interaction, not mindless npcing and getting to the next level while we all get along. If you haven't figured out that intelligence/counter-intelligence is a very important part of eve, you shouldn't be running a corp or allience in the first place.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:59:00 - [42] I guess it comes down to how you want to win, if you're the largest warmachine around and still feel you have to resort to sabotage to get the upper hand then that's a pretty sad state of affairs. Ourselves Alone
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:59:00 - [43] Originally by: Ramblin Man Those of you that say, the line = the law ... are just morally lazy. Put some thought into your positions. No they are cold and wasted by life Emolouse out --------------------------------
Xendie Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:59:00 - [44] what i think is worse then spying and infiltrating corps/alliances or even being given a sql dump from the enemies web admins is the fact that rules on these forums are effectively being changed to fit what one party ingame wants it be when they are the subject of the spying and infiltrating. now that is lame of CCP to allow. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:00:00 - [45] "However. Using methods such as Teamspeak & (outgame) forum "infiltration" (ur not really spies, dont humor urselves) is not that different for buying isk with cash. Ur going out of game to gain an advantage in it. & taking it out of game isnt kewl." There's a catch to this reasoning -- if we classify things like game-oriented TS channel and game-oriented forum as "out of game", then the people who run these are using "out of game" means to gain in-game advantage themselves, which in turn is quite against the game EULA. You can't have your cookie and eat it -- either this is out of game medium and as such should be not existing/utilized in the first place, or it is part of the game and as such fair play to game-based infiltration etc. Besides there's then also issue of soon-to-come in-game voice communication. Will it be "fair game" to compromise with game character because it's part of the game client, even though it performs the same function 3rd party based voice communication does? Or will it be off limits because of 3rd party applications allowing the same... but in this particular case the "it's not part of game" argument when it's part of game client is seriously going to look even more silly it does now...
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:02:00 - [46] For me, as soon as our reactions in and for the game effect others then that is going too far. I won't use legality as an excuse to say x is banned but y is not because, ultimately hte law is subjective. If what we do in the pursuit of intel leads to someone HAVING to login to EvE, or possibly making their means of (RL) income at risk, then what they / we / you are doing goes beyond "the game". Get the intel you need through playing the game, joining up to forums because it's part of joining up and "playing the game" (take all your 3rd party software crap and jump those of you that believe it, btw) is all fair game. Getting pos offlined by disgruntled members and / or infiltrator spies, all good. We can turn the game off and walk away. Brute force a phbpp domain on a server that is shared on a server / connection with a client that pays you RL isk indicates an idiot for a brain and a retard for a decision making process, imo. Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Darko1107 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:03:00 - [47] Well your betraying some1s trust with all of those things, so whatever way you try and pin it, its always going to be morallly wrong. Personally I dont really care, its just a game after all. However, i do think that the people doing it should be well aware of what they are doing. BoB for instance are seen in pretty much every "Corp theive" abusing him while stealing other peoples POS. Everest. Also, if your guna put spies on your enemies TS while you are in a fleet battle with them, dont shout and whoop when you win it, a poodle would be capable of winning that. Its like playing an RTS with a maphack on. If a RL friend went behind my back and did it in order to offend me, i'd probly be a bit miffed, but it would probly be the case that they were probly just be having a laugh and joke with me so i wouldnt be bothered. Overall i'd say spying infiltrating etc is for boring people. Though reading ASCN forums was always a good laugh so EVERYONE can be let off on that 1 . ------------------ Sig removed, please keep it under the 24,000 byte limit, if you have any questions please email [email protected] - Xorus
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:06:00 - [48] Originally by: Xendie what i think is worse then spying and infiltrating corps/alliances or even being given a sql dump from the enemies web admins is the fact that rules on these forums are effectively being changed to fit what one party ingame wants it be when they are the subject of the spying and infiltrating. now that is lame of CCP to allow. The rules were changed BECAUSE of us, xendie, not FOR us. We OBJECTED to to the stupid "no intel posts / internal forums" rule, it is pathetic, but it's there - now you're screaming that, AFTER it's changed, it's OUR fault? Get a grip. Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:12:00 - [49] Originally by: Dianabolic Brute force a phbpp domain on a server that is shared on a server / connection with a client that pays you RL isk indicates an idiot for a brain and a retard for a decision making process, imo. To me a bruteforce hack, and the more sublte (i lied to gain acces hacking) is one in the same. This mainly stems from the fact that for a lot of us, what goes on our website is more then just eve related. In TBC for example we have been gaming together for years. We are friends. We write things on those forums for our friends, and stuff that has no relation to eve, personal stuff. Just because some idiot thinks its okay to play eve outside the game and on other peoples forums I am just suppose to accept it. Nope. I think it was wrong to hack the server, but i also think it was wrong when you guys hacked other alliances servers by lying to them about whou you were to get access. Play the game...and someone esles forum or ts is not eve. I dont have to load the client to get acces to either.
Galan XIII Forty Two	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:17:00 - [50] Edited by: Galan XIII on 02/01/2007 21:20:19 Morals are easily set aside in real life by most people depending on what can be gained (or lost) by setting them aside. On the internet, it is even easier as he people potentially hurt by these actions are faceless and nameless; as is the person doing the act. It is the same mentality that enabled people to cheat in video games since they were created. They also lie to cover it, rationalize it, and deend it as well intentioned. IF anyone ever played Counterstrike, you will know the levels people can go to for winning and personal glory. Do not expect others to live up to your expectations for moral correctness. All you can do is live to your standards and be proud of that. Be happy in the fact that anyone who considers and does such an act continually is typically a person of low moral fibre and very low self-esteem. Anything to win is much different than anything to win within the bounds of acceptable behaviour. Morals are what seperate us from the animals. Only two animals in existence kill for pleasure. The Leopard and man. (Leopard is up for debate btw according to new studies). Karma is a harsh master. - Galan
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:20:00 - [51] "Play the game...and someone esles forum or ts is not eve. I dont have to load the client to get acces to either." Why are you then granting people access to these based on their game character..? If it has nothing to do with the game, it should not matter if person you grant access to the forum has EVE character in the first place, let alone one that belongs to your corporation.
Lowa Gallente North Star Networks Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:21:00 - [52] Edited by: Lowa on 02/01/2007 21:21:54 Its a tricky question and its all down to each individual. I personally dont like going past some light hearted corp/alliance infiltration including TS (if invited via ingame rules i.e. by joining a corp/alliance with your spy). That said, using that as the ultimate "I win button" I dont really like. Someone said that in the end, the ingame tactics and use of ships and force should be the decisive thing and since a lot of ppl gets...upset and dont think its worth playing if someone is constantly invading their TS and such (been there) it by automagic becomes a very powerful button. I know I'm in that category by the simple fact that I dont play "at that level" coz I think its a bit too much. Some would argue that is not playing to win. Perhaps that is true, well, it is true, by know I play for fun and my rl-corp-friends. Not that dont I like winning but...Meh...its a hard topic. /Lowa What if the truth was something else?
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:22:00 - [53] Originally by: Serapis Aote To me a bruteforce hack, and the more sublte (i lied to gain acces hacking) is one in the same. I see. So, tell me, how does "enter login > logged in" compare to: LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN SERVER CRASH Again? Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Karunel Princeps Corp	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:22:00 - [54] Quote: The person that visits a RL meeting and plays a mate just to gain information for a game is not able to do that in my oppinion. Whoever does that, whoever, loses in RL- period. Originally by: elbenito The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.
Kirja	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:26:00 - [55] You are using out of game methods to gain an in game advantage. While there a lot of sportsmen that use drugs, soccer teams that use bribes, etc... It's a disgrace and once it's discovered consequences will follow. Besides there is a thing called sportsmanship.
Goodtime Girl Amarr Anger Management	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:26:00 - [56] Quote: Anything that involves relationships between human beings is completely legal My dog can say "Sausages" .......... is that legal in Texas
Troubadour Slacker Industries	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:27:00 - [57] Originally by: Darko1107 Well your betraying some1s trust with all of those things, so whatever way you try and pin it, its always going to be morallly wrong. Whose morals? Your's or mine? Since when is there a central authority regulating morality that we all subscribed too. Originally by: Darko1107 Personally I dont really care, its just a game after all. However, i do think that the people doing it should be well aware of what they are doing. BoB for instance are seen in pretty much every "Corp theive" abusing him while stealing other peoples POS. Everest. Also, if your guna put spies on your enemies TS while you are in a fleet battle with them, dont shout and whoop when you win it, a poodle would be capable of winning that. Its like playing an RTS with a maphack on. If you don't care then why post? Go back to farming plexes. And I think people like YOU should be well aware that life isn't fair, and neither is EVE. Spys and infiltration have been utilized in many actual and fictional conflicts. I don't know why people think it's such a big deal that it happens in eve, there are easy ways around it. And spying is VERY different then say using a map-hack in an RTS because spying in EVE is part of the game mechanics, which are meant to emulate human interactions in real life.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:29:00 - [58] Edited by: Serapis Aote on 02/01/2007 21:31:02 Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Serapis Aote To me a bruteforce hack, and the more sublte (i lied to gain acces hacking) is one in the same. I see. So, tell me, how does "enter login > logged in" compare to: LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN SERVER CRASH Again? Same goal Same result different tactic you drew a line that if you get someone to give you access by lying to them, then its okay. I just dont differentiate between the two, because I see the goal and the result as wrong, regardless of tactic employed. Its just a difference of opinion. For me the game starts and ends when i open the client, and when i close it. The original post asked for our opinions. this is mine, and i have not seen a good reason yet to change mine.
Luke Skyrider DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:32:00 - [59] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse But morally? No - i am no shiny knight, im just able to realize that behind the PC there are real people. And some borders arent to be crossed.? People need to use their head and dont just let other's (CCP) tell them what is morally right or wrong. We dont need a bunch of rules, but simple rules and common sense. Maybe eve (mmorpg) are different from real life games. Personal, I have done things in eve that im not very proud of. Spying, psychological warfare and infiltration are legal within eve, but many will probably consider this bad sportsmanship and morally corrupt. It's a thin red line and each player has to decide where that line is, not CCP. CCP cant make rules for everything, that would be insane and un-real. Imho, several unwritten rules from real life games apply to eve as well and people seems to forget that. It's easy to hide behind the PC without real life contact. This is a game which equal fun. A game is about winning, but not the be-end-all. It takes two teams with mutual respect to make a good game. Golden rule is, "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." [PvP-Recruitment] \| www.dab-online.com
Orree Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:36:00 - [60] Originally by: Bombcrater For me the moral line is clear. PvP in this game is about fighting, in-game, with ships. You gain an edge over your enemies by being more professional, more organised, and more determined. Gaining that edge by the use of spies is wrong. Using saboteurs, turncoats and TS infiltrators is doubly wrong and utterly lame. There's a certain satisfacion in watching those who live by these lame tactics getting undermined by even more lame tactics, but it's tinged with regret that people are prepared to sink so low. I personally don't leave my morals behind when I hit the connect button. Eve is a game, but the people playing it are very real. I agree. I also realize, however, that what I like and what works for me isn't necessarily the same for someone else. I love this game and I spend a lot of time playing it (not as much as I'd like because of various RL contraints--- wife, kids, graduate school, work...heheh). I will never be so into this game that I will take a "win at any cost" mentality. It doesn't mean that much to me and I just cannot dedicate myself that completely. Put-simply, my sense of self-worth is not derived from anything that occurs in this game. I hang out with like-minded people in this game. I think we do pretty well in EVE as casual players who don't try to dot every "i" or cross every "t." We've come a very long way since we started and we've spent a lot of time fighting the best in EVE. We're not players who feel like were have to seek every single advantage and employ it in order to win. We're a loose-knit group of players who work fairly well with each other, but we'll never be as organized and dedicated to a specific agenda to be able compete on the same level as certain alliances or corporations. I guess the difference I'm talking about here is that I would never really care enough to try most of what is in question in this thread, even if I didn't find it reprehensible.

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