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Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 19:58:00 - [1] Since the other topic is closed i would like to ask you a question about spying on enemy entities. We could debate here until theres no tomorrow. Fact is that Forum Hacking is illegal by law. Shouting on Teamspeak, posting private chatlogs and sharing mp3's from meetings isnt. It is also not illegal by law if a member of BoB infiltrates a Corp and plays the friend by even going to a RL meeting. But morally? No - i am no shiny knight, im just able to realize that behind the PC there are real people. And some borders arent to be crossed. Im surely getting called "Emolouse" for this again, but it really interests me what other pilots think Where is the border/limit on alliance/corp infiltration and manipulation? --------------------------------
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:02:00 - [2] I like espionage but im sure my corp is filled with spies (they are all after my tech 3 tuxedo) Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -Marcus TheMartin
Christopher Multsanti Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:08:00 - [3] I have come to the conclusion that these problems all stem from one person. Sir Molle. Now if we could just get him banned, everything would be great in the world of Eve. /me wonders to himself if this possible, I'll work on it and get back to you. It's great being Amarr that flys Minmintar aint it? EVIL SYNNs > Bob are the best, we have to pay them to use the plexs...
Elisca Black Gallente Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:08:00 - [4] Edited by: Elisca Black on 02/01/2007 20:11:23 Anything that involves relationships between human beings is completely legal. After all the own-ness is on the people involved. Not on the third party. Breaking into a computer or server is completely out of the question. If you "guess" the password for a teamspeak server, it is crossing the line. If you are given a semi-public password to a teamspeak server, it is legal. After all a "guest" password as it is, is for public people who are "invited". When you give out your semi-public password you are allowing them to invite other people as well. If you are given a private-username password for a teamspeak server, that would be legal, because the person who gave it to you is therefor giving you permission to assume his identity. The same would apply for forums. Anything done in the sandbox of eve, from scamming to lieing, to even guessing the password of "private-channel" I would say is legal. As ccp is the creator and they make the rules.
Spike Spegel Minmatar Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:09:00 - [5] Edited by: Spike Spegel on 02/01/2007 20:10:36 The cultural level of any comunity is always as high as high is the level of it's cultural lowest member... Spike out __________________________ [3-I] till I die
Barty McFly Black Nova Corp	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:10:00 - [6] Edited by: Barty McFly on 02/01/2007 20:11:33 1) if infiltrating a teamspeak server/forum by invitation (given username/password) under an assumed ingame identity, then yes morally it's not very nice. 2) if infiltrating a teamspeak server/forum by breaking in uninvited, then sorry completly different. I live in the eve world that number 1 has been going on to us for just as long as we've been doing it to other people, it's part of the game to me and regarding morals, i have few as far as eves concerned, not anymore ever since my early eve days, screw or be screwed, we play to win. I feel sorry for the codemonkeys that were busier than usual at xmas :(
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:11:00 - [7] Originally by: Elisca Black Anything that involves relationships between human beings is completely legal. After all the own-ness is on the people involved. Not on the third party. Breaking into a computer or server is completely out of the question. If you "guess" the password for a teamspeak server, it is crossing the line. If you are given a semi-public password to a teamspeak server, it is legal. After all a "guest" password as it is, is for public people are are "invited". If you are given a private-username password for a teamspeak server, that would be legal, because the person who gave it to you is therefor giving you permission to assume his identity. The same would apply for forums. Anything done in the sandbox of eve, from scamming to lieing, to even guessing the password of "private-channel" I would say is legal. As ccp is the creator and they make the rules. you got me wrong here. i know what is illegal by law. that was not my point. im asking where the moral border is - if there is any --------------------------------
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:15:00 - [8] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse im asking where the moral border is - if there is any The "moral border" is the point at which, if it was made public that you as a person were carrying out the dubious actions, you would be embarrassed. This applies to anyone in EVE, IMO. -[23] Member- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame)
Elisca Black Gallente Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:16:00 - [9] Edited by: Elisca Black on 02/01/2007 20:19:07 Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Originally by: Elisca Black Anything that involves relationships between human beings is completely legal. After all the own-ness is on the people involved. Not on the third party. Breaking into a computer or server is completely out of the question. If you "guess" the password for a teamspeak server, it is crossing the line. If you are given a semi-public password to a teamspeak server, it is legal. After all a "guest" password as it is, is for public people are are "invited". If you are given a private-username password for a teamspeak server, that would be legal, because the person who gave it to you is therefor giving you permission to assume his identity. The same would apply for forums. Anything done in the sandbox of eve, from scamming to lieing, to even guessing the password of "private-channel" I would say is legal. As ccp is the creator and they make the rules. you got me wrong here. i know what is illegal by law. that was not my point. im asking where the moral border is - if there is any All is fair in love and war. The problem isnt that people lie, cheat and steal..The challenge in-game is to create a social-structure which can defeat that. Dont hate the player, hate the game. Morality only extends to which there are consequences? By playing you agree to be subject to everything involved, when you don't agree to it, it is not morally correct.
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:16:00 - [10] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse im asking where the moral border is - if there is any The "moral border" is the point at which, if it was made public that you as a person were carrying out the dubious actions, you would be embarrassed. This applies to anyone in EVE, IMO. so u are saying that morale is subjective in EVE? --------------------------------
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:17:00 - [11] Edited by: Cmd Woodlouse on 02/01/2007 20:17:47 Originally by: Elisca Black Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Originally by: Elisca Black Anything that involves relationships between human beings is completely legal. After all the own-ness is on the people involved. Not on the third party. Breaking into a computer or server is completely out of the question. If you "guess" the password for a teamspeak server, it is crossing the line. If you are given a semi-public password to a teamspeak server, it is legal. After all a "guest" password as it is, is for public people are are "invited". If you are given a private-username password for a teamspeak server, that would be legal, because the person who gave it to you is therefor giving you permission to assume his identity. The same would apply for forums. Anything done in the sandbox of eve, from scamming to lieing, to even guessing the password of "private-channel" I would say is legal. As ccp is the creator and they make the rules. you got me wrong here. i know what is illegal by law. that was not my point. im asking where the moral border is - if there is any All is fair in love and war. The problem isnt that people lie, cheat and steal..The challenge in-game is to create a social-structure which can defeat that. Dont hate the player, hate the game. Playing a friend on a RL meeting is more out of game than ingame for me... and where is the challenge if u know anything about ur enemy? u cant lose then... --------------------------------
Angry Dan Caldari Momentum. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:20:00 - [12] Too many people ahve too few scruples. And there behavious ingame is like real life. With the breaks off Infiltration, betrayl theft and the like is low in real life. This is agame people play to have fun in. People don't want to have to deal with that crap in a game as well. I play for fun. Mine and others too. Theres to many selfish people who care only for there own fun. ++++++++++++++++++++ Founder member of the Huzzah Federation. Remember, the grass is greener on our side of the fence Widowmakers director Fear my kneepads of allure!
whopper Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:22:00 - [13] from the backside of the eve-online gamebox, second line: "Conceive a new life without boundaries, where murder, plunder, betrayal, and delusions of grandeur will lead you to boundless glory or to the brink of ruin. think about it. whopper -feel the fire
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:22:00 - [14] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Where is the border/limit on alliance/corp infiltration and manipulation? I guess my position on that is already well known and laughed at. One person = one character. New RL owner of a character/account? wtfnowai. And then we really wouldn't have any of these troubles at all. But then again, it's about CCP making money. So instead everyone is encouraged to have at least 5 accounts and change characters as often as underpants. And with that enviroment as a playground, it's a problem that can't be fixed. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:23:00 - [15] Edited by: j0sephine on 02/01/2007 20:24:51 "But morally? No - i am no shiny knight, im just able to realize that behind the PC there are real people. And some borders arent to be crossed. Im surely getting called "Emolouse" for this again, but it really interests me what other pilots think Where is the border/limit on alliance/corp infiltration and manipulation?" It may be cheap copout i guess, yet "it's dirty work but someone has to do it" springs to mind. To clarify, it's not something that needs to be done, technically -- i.e. it's quite possible to play the game without this additional layer. But on the other hand it is something that's being advertised as part of what EVE is about, by its own developers. Some corporations like GHSC take this ball and run with it -- while people may complain about morality of it, you cannot deny their infiltration heist was one of few EVE events that made it to RL gaming press ... and it was major reason for plenty people who read such reports to check the game out in the first place. Besides the morality argument is slippery slope in the first place. If it's immoral to infilitrate another alliance, then how is it at the same time 'moral' to claim a piece of 0.0 space and deny entry to anyone but "our own people"? Or shoot others and blow up their ships? Sure it's all fun and games, but it's the real people you deny access and prevent them from having fun they'd perhaps like to have there just the same. It's quite simple in the end. Corporation and alliance infiltration and sabotage is expected and stated in advance part of the game. Just like claiming space and blowing up assets of other people is.
Butter Dog Gallente The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:24:00 - [16] Where is the fun in fighting an enemy if you have TS spies and know exactly what their fleet is doing? For me it makes it somehow more than a game. I'm not interested in that, tbh, I don't care about winning enough to 'cheat', so to speak. Fun is more important. Good Sportsmanship > Winning.
Bombcrater DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:26:00 - [17] For me the moral line is clear. PvP in this game is about fighting, in-game, with ships. You gain an edge over your enemies by being more professional, more organised, and more determined. Gaining that edge by the use of spies is wrong. Using saboteurs, turncoats and TS infiltrators is doubly wrong and utterly lame. There's a certain satisfacion in watching those who live by these lame tactics getting undermined by even more lame tactics, but it's tinged with regret that people are prepared to sink so low. I personally don't leave my morals behind when I hit the connect button. Eve is a game, but the people playing it are very real.
Elisca Black Gallente Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:26:00 - [18] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Edited by: Cmd Woodlouse on 02/01/2007 20:17:47 Originally by: Elisca Black Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Originally by: Elisca Black Anything that involves relationships between human beings is completely legal. After all the own-ness is on the people involved. Not on the third party. Breaking into a computer or server is completely out of the question. If you "guess" the password for a teamspeak server, it is crossing the line. If you are given a semi-public password to a teamspeak server, it is legal. After all a "guest" password as it is, is for public people are are "invited". If you are given a private-username password for a teamspeak server, that would be legal, because the person who gave it to you is therefor giving you permission to assume his identity. The same would apply for forums. Anything done in the sandbox of eve, from scamming to lieing, to even guessing the password of "private-channel" I would say is legal. As ccp is the creator and they make the rules. you got me wrong here. i know what is illegal by law. that was not my point. im asking where the moral border is - if there is any All is fair in love and war. The problem isnt that people lie, cheat and steal..The challenge in-game is to create a social-structure which can defeat that. Dont hate the player, hate the game. Playing a friend on a RL meeting is more out of game than ingame for me... and where is the challenge if u know anything about ur enemy? u cant lose then... Morality only extends to which there are consequences? By playing you agree to be subject to everything involved, when you don't agree to it, it is not morally correct. A real-life meeting with someone who is your "enemy" in game and does not tell you? Man that's complicated..such a dilema, I guess the tragedy is that you would have to assume they are there to play the game. Friend or not, I guess you would have to have no expectations of someone and just take it as it comes. It's low, and I would hope as human-being you could have a beer after the fact. But draw the line...in-game, out of game. Tough man.
Garrard Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:27:00 - [19] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse im asking where the moral border is - if there is any The "moral border" is the point at which, if it was made public that you as a person were carrying out the dubious actions, you would be embarrassed. This applies to anyone in EVE, IMO. so u are saying that morale is subjective in EVE? of course they are subjective, in EvE as well as in any "game" I mean, most if not all of us here would not hesitate to shoot a neutral or hostile in space, but would you say we all are psychopaths that would walk out in the street and shoot some unknown person for being on our block? probly not. would you steal from your next door neighbor? probly not but most here would not think twice about "liberating" a jet can in 0.0 so yes subjective. if you don't want spies in your TS and in your forums start screening the people your with better. not to hard to weed most of them out.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:30:00 - [20] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 02/01/2007 20:32:02 I draw the limit where the law lies. Resorting to hacking someones Web/Vent/Ts servers is just poor. Disrupting teamspeak/vent chatter by singing if you manage to find their Pw the legal way, ie from a member with access is reasonably okay though, al though im not a fan of this tactic. I'm all in favor of manipulation and infiltration though, makes eve interesting. I wish CCP would add game mechanics to do/control this though. Ie items stolen through corp thefts are flagged as stolen and require certain acts to be flagged as normal so that they can be sold on the market or flown into empire. Character histories, names, faces, etc should be forge able but also be traceable with the right tools/skills/contacts. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:32:00 - [21] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse you got me wrong here. i know what is illegal by law. that was not my point. im asking where the moral border is - if there is any The moral border is where it has always been: in whatever the zeitgeist (or portions thereof) supports. That's why there's a clash here between different people over the issue. Some people see it this way, 1) Something was initially done which violated, at the very least, a social <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norm_%28sociology%29">more</a> (apologies, wikipedia's sociology section is pretty poor) 2) Another more was violated, this time against the person who perpetrated the first violation 3) Some people feel that the second action is justified as a sanction on the first Others see it this way, 1) Something was initially done which violated, at the most, a folkway 2) A more, at least, was violated against the person who carried out the first action 3) Some people feel that the second action is unjustified as the first action didn't carry the penalty of social sanctions So ultimately, your analyzation of the the timeline depends on two things: - What kind of norm was initially violated? - What kind of sactions are justified for that violation? PS: As a side note, I suggest using the sociological perspective on this matter (both because it's more useful and because it avoids moderation). The "rule of law" lens always seems to fail in internet discussions, and there's a reason for that. Simply, a lot of "us" (people on the internet) do things which are at the very least "naughty," and quite possibly illegal in the course of every day.
Elisca Black Gallente Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:32:00 - [22] Edited by: Elisca Black on 02/01/2007 20:38:41 Edited by: Elisca Black on 02/01/2007 20:37:34 Edited by: Elisca Black on 02/01/2007 20:35:08 Better yet..can you play a game of paintball with someone, who just vicously shot u in the back 20 times after you said hit? Then play on there team as a team-mate? People play a game, to play the game. If the rules are no rules...then play the game. It would be fair, to ask someone outside of eve if they are "playing eve still" or out to have a beer. If they said "no" and later turned on me or lied or something, then I would do what you would to someone in real life who screwed you. Personally, as a person though I could not be that grey. Even though i've shot CE and G and D2 my entire eve career, I could still have a beer with you guys and have fun. However, I wouldnt pretend I was an alliance mate, I would just tell you straight, i'm gonna blow all your stuff up.
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:37:00 - [23] Originally by: whopper from the backside of the eve-online gamebox, second line: "Conceive a new life without boundaries, where murder, plunder, betrayal, and delusions of grandeur will lead you to boundless glory or to the brink of ruin. think about it. whopper -feel the fire I dont think CCP wanted it that way. --------------------------------
Trina Tron Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:37:00 - [24] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse But morally? Why should anyone give a flying ** about morals in a video game ffs. ----------------------------------- Originally by:** Santiago Cortes Locked Begging is not allowed or appreciated on the forums. Whining remains perfectly acceptable.
Acwron Minmatar Cataclysm Enterprises	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:43:00 - [25] I don't think anybody as a player would have issues if there would be actual characters who are bribed or somebody who makes up his mind and decides to infiltrate corperations as a carerrer. That would actually require ingame social engineering. As a character I might feel betrayed and angry but it's all fair and well in the EVE Universe. But once you use totally unrelated "alts" you are using out of game mechanics. And yes I think it was wrong that CCP encouraged this because you stop playing the game with the agendas of the characters and start only using the ones of the player. This degrades the characters to tools. You don't have to account for your actions and history because it does not reflect back on your actual identity. I don't think this is what CCP had orginally in mind.
Louis DelaBlanche Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:45:00 - [26] My 2 cents. My view on spying & all that is the same as my view on most things to do with EVE. If its ingame its okay. Whether its taddling on ur corp/alliance mates; stealing everything under the sun (& above it); or pretending to be a super kewl dude when ur a thief. If its ingame & within the rules, thats kewl (although forgive me for hating u for doing it ) However. Using methods such as Teamspeak & (outgame) forum "infiltration" (ur not really spies, dont humor urselves) is not that different for buying isk with cash. Ur going out of game to gain an advantage in it. & taking it out of game isnt kewl.
Quarantine 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:45:00 - [27] first page in nublouse thread \o/
Hey You Constructive Influence	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:46:00 - [28] by doing it in game, and by socialising with others, thus getting accepted in corp / alliance its all fine and i support it. gets more fun into game. to hack your way in... its retarded. buzz off. on the end of the day when u turn game off all of that is something similiar to a movie u once watched. To fall in love and fall in debt To alcohol and cigarettes and Mary Jane To keep me insane and doing someone else's cocain
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:46:00 - [29] Originally by: Elisca Black Personally, as a person though I could not be that grey. Even though i've shot CE and G and D2 my entire eve career, I could still have a beer with you guys and have fun. However, I wouldnt pretend I was an alliance mate, I would just tell you straight, i'm gonna blow all your stuff up. Maybe we are different, but for some of us EVE and friends is something that is compatible. And im not even an inet-loser Its not me not being able to divide between EVE and RL. The person that visits a RL meeting and plays a mate just to gain information for a game is not able to do that in my oppinion. And there is the border for me personally. --------------------------------
Hey You Constructive Influence	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:47:00 - [30] and answer to ops question. It shouldnt be stoped at all. To fall in love and fall in debt To alcohol and cigarettes and Mary Jane To keep me insane and doing someone else's cocain
Louis DelaBlanche Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:47:00 - [31] Originally by: Acwron But once you use totally unrelated "alts" you are using out of game mechanics. And yes I think it was wrong that CCP encouraged this because you stop playing the game with the agendas of the characters and start only using the ones of the player. This degrades the characters to tools. You don't have to account for your actions and history because it does not reflect back on your actual identity. I don't think this is what CCP had orginally in mind. Very valid point. The proliferation of alts does seem to have degraded the value of individual characters to merely the sum of their skillpoints.
Hakera Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:48:00 - [32] My opinions are that whilst all forms of espionage exist in the real world, its different as we have many more controls, both socially, morally and legally that limit the scale of the abuse, such is not possible in eve. If we take the normal 'sins' in eve, spying, stealing and sabotage. Spying is fairly common, I could with fair ease, reveal and share most of the secrets of my company with minimal risk of being identified. Leaking information is fairly common and consequences of such actions are being fired and jail if the information has damaged the company. In eve, an identified mole can be removed from the corp/alliance and thats about it realistically, there is no other consequence of their action as you can rarely identify who the player is behind the character without OOG methods. There is comparible difficulty in identifying said mole in both 'realities'. Stealing carries a much heavier consequence, items that are missing can typcially be traced. In my rl work, I deal with millions of money daily, every payment I make is checked by different authorisation levels before being released. Every past payment can be traced and every change in shares or options of any security is checked by same said managers above me before approval. Outside work I could steal stuff in general, but getting caught and the penalties if caught are enough of a deterrant to stop me. In eve, items can easily be stolen bar locked down blueprints with very minimal auditing that only provides the first level of control in knowing where it went to, but there is no authority bar GM's who has the power to get it back. There is no consequence bar the reputation if you do steal unlike in real life. Sabotage....offline pos, shoot corp members in safe space etc etc. Same as stealing no consequences bar reputation which in eve tends to be one of glorification. But we must also cover forum and ts disruption. Many in eve draw the line that such acts are ingame however many alliances and individuals see it as fine to disrupt external applications whether through hacking, ddos, blocking channels, invading channels, stealing bandwidth. The majority again simply put ingame sabotage to lame but allowable. The question of morality, what does it matter where the culpability and consequence is through the barrier of the internet, where I do not have to look at the person I steal from or disrupt. Killing is ok, but stealing, deception and sabotage are not but is that because killing is a game mechanic, yet the rest are failings in the simple game mechanics trying to imitate real systems of control and ther ultimate question of trust in a game where you never may really know your fellow corpmates. To finish of this ramble, the question of virtual assets having real value and therefore provisions of protection under real law has been raised constantly these last few years in the world of mmorpgs. One day, stealing my eve stuff may well be a RL crime!
Wild Rho Amarr Black Omega Security	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:48:00 - [33] Hacking a forums is fairly different from the other infiltration as it is a more aggressive/offensive method and is as you said, illegal. Other means though are more a case of someone giving you access (under false pretences granted) but even so, if you can't see the difference there's not alot more that can be said. Personally I'm very 50/50 on this from being on both sides at one point or another. On one hand I think it's great that actual espionage is a very real tool of war in pvp beyond big fleets, players move about like agents doing their damage from moral, info leaked to actual sabotage of corp assets. On the other hand there is no real way to stop a truely determined player and there are no tools ccp can provide as protection or even retaliation (I think attending a rl meetup of people you intend to screw over is a little creepy but that's a personal opinion) and I think this can really ruin the game for some (and this is a game when you get right down to it). In the end I think it gives events in Eve alot more flavour (the infamous GSHC scam being a notable example) where a players moral stance is not enforced by some form of game mechanics as well as providing another aspect of a corp/alliance that can seperate a good corp from a bad one. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:49:00 - [34] My opinion has always been. Its a game, keep things in game. No hacking websites, no lying to get access to areas outside the game. People will always try to justify their positions, but this one is easy for me. Play the game, and the game is not played on someone elses forums or their voice server.
Shirei Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:50:00 - [35] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 02/01/2007 20:32:02I draw the limit where the law lies. Resorting to hacking someones Web/Vent/Ts servers is just poor. The law allows many things the vast majority of the EVE community would find repulsive though, for example it is completely legal to: - ebay a character in a hostile corp/alliance to use it for spying - fund your whole cap fleet with RL $$$ (assuming you have way too much RL $$$, are insanely bored and really can't find anything better to do ) - in some jurisdictions even gain access to a TS/web-server by hacking (provided you don't cause economic damage in the process) Where do you draw the line?
KIATheClash Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:50:00 - [36] Certain information that has been gatherd by spying shouldnt eb released . One player was already driven from a game by that and yet people dont take lessons . Ofc spying is a go but idd there are borders to be drawn imo and CCP also should help in that cuz it really can affect or hurt teh feelings to a person BEHIND teh avatar . CCP already have failed to response once to serious form of abuse of intel gatherd and just let peeps go on with it . Personal stuff should be let out simple , if not = instaban . Mods this is currently my main .
Nyx Opet Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:50:00 - [37] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 02/01/2007 20:32:02 I draw the limit where the law lies. Resorting to hacking someones Web/Vent/Ts servers is just poor. Disrupting teamspeak/vent chatter by singing if you manage to find their Pw the legal way, ie from a member with access is reasonably okay though, al though im not a fan of this tactic. I'm all in favor of manipulation and infiltration though, makes eve interesting. I wish CCP would add game mechanics to do/control this though. Ie items stolen through corp thefts are flagged as stolen and require certain acts to be flagged as normal so that they can be sold on the market or flown into empire. Character histories, names, faces, etc should be forge able but also be traceable with the right tools/skills/contacts. I agree with this completely (especially the last line). That which breaks laws would be unacceptable. However, manipulation and deceit are what makes the game so dynamic (also part of what drew me to the game). The only problem is that it is too easy and absolutely no accountability. There needs to be a way to track mischievous deeds of alts and accounts so actions are accountable, though it may take some in-game investigative work. I believe this is what makes some people find spying of any sort unacceptable; it is because you cannot trace it back to anyone. Of course, it still should be possible to evade capture. Besides, alliances needs something to be wary of besides big guns. --- What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion.
Elisca Black Gallente Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:52:00 - [38] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Originally by: Elisca Black Personally, as a person though I could not be that grey. Even though i've shot CE and G and D2 my entire eve career, I could still have a beer with you guys and have fun. However, I wouldnt pretend I was an alliance mate, I would just tell you straight, i'm gonna blow all your stuff up. Maybe we are different, but for some of us EVE and friends is something that is compatible. And im not even an inet-loser Its not me not being able to divide between EVE and RL. The person that visits a RL meeting and plays a mate just to gain information for a game is not able to do that in my oppinion. And there is the border for me personally. Was it a "eve" meeting? If they called you (phone) and said "hey, realname wanna go for a beer?" id say that is different.
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:53:00 - [39] Those of you that say, the line = the law ... are just morally lazy. Put some thought into your positions.
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:58:00 - [40] Originally by: Elisca Black Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Originally by: Elisca Black Personally, as a person though I could not be that grey. Even though i've shot CE and G and D2 my entire eve career, I could still have a beer with you guys and have fun. However, I wouldnt pretend I was an alliance mate, I would just tell you straight, i'm gonna blow all your stuff up. Maybe we are different, but for some of us EVE and friends is something that is compatible. And im not even an inet-loser Its not me not being able to divide between EVE and RL. The person that visits a RL meeting and plays a mate just to gain information for a game is not able to do that in my oppinion. And there is the border for me personally. Was it a "eve" meeting? If they called you (phone) and said "hey, realname wanna go for a beer?" id say that is different. Im just talking about some guys having a blast in RL and getting a chance to get known to each other better than that would be able via TS or only chat. --------------------------------
Troubadour Slacker Industries	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:58:00 - [41] Before you can deem something legal or illegal you need an official law(s) or legal reference recognized by both parties and any third parties involved. If said Teamspeak service is functioning on a machine outside of the political entity the defendant is a citizen of, then no action can be taken in any court as no court would have the proper jurisdiction without an expedition. A failure of a system administrator to properly secure his Teamspeak server is an issue for him to deal with privately. Unless the events in question involve explicit abuse or breaking of EVE-ONLINE game mechanics or the EULA, then it should be considered part of the game and intended gameplay. CCP does not care if a person hacks and invades your teamspeak or ventrillo and spams it. Why should CCP care? It's YOUR PROBLEM. It has nothing to do with EVE other then the fact you may know each other from the game. It's like trying to ask AOL to catch child molesters that prey on children through AIM. Lying, deception, spying, corp theft... it's a part of the game. If you fall prey to it, it is your own lack social skills and not CCP's fault. EVE is a game about people and interaction, not mindless npcing and getting to the next level while we all get along. If you haven't figured out that intelligence/counter-intelligence is a very important part of eve, you shouldn't be running a corp or allience in the first place.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:59:00 - [42] I guess it comes down to how you want to win, if you're the largest warmachine around and still feel you have to resort to sabotage to get the upper hand then that's a pretty sad state of affairs. Ourselves Alone
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:59:00 - [43] Originally by: Ramblin Man Those of you that say, the line = the law ... are just morally lazy. Put some thought into your positions. No they are cold and wasted by life Emolouse out --------------------------------
Xendie Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:59:00 - [44] what i think is worse then spying and infiltrating corps/alliances or even being given a sql dump from the enemies web admins is the fact that rules on these forums are effectively being changed to fit what one party ingame wants it be when they are the subject of the spying and infiltrating. now that is lame of CCP to allow. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:00:00 - [45] "However. Using methods such as Teamspeak & (outgame) forum "infiltration" (ur not really spies, dont humor urselves) is not that different for buying isk with cash. Ur going out of game to gain an advantage in it. & taking it out of game isnt kewl." There's a catch to this reasoning -- if we classify things like game-oriented TS channel and game-oriented forum as "out of game", then the people who run these are using "out of game" means to gain in-game advantage themselves, which in turn is quite against the game EULA. You can't have your cookie and eat it -- either this is out of game medium and as such should be not existing/utilized in the first place, or it is part of the game and as such fair play to game-based infiltration etc. Besides there's then also issue of soon-to-come in-game voice communication. Will it be "fair game" to compromise with game character because it's part of the game client, even though it performs the same function 3rd party based voice communication does? Or will it be off limits because of 3rd party applications allowing the same... but in this particular case the "it's not part of game" argument when it's part of game client is seriously going to look even more silly it does now...
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:02:00 - [46] For me, as soon as our reactions in and for the game effect others then that is going too far. I won't use legality as an excuse to say x is banned but y is not because, ultimately hte law is subjective. If what we do in the pursuit of intel leads to someone HAVING to login to EvE, or possibly making their means of (RL) income at risk, then what they / we / you are doing goes beyond "the game". Get the intel you need through playing the game, joining up to forums because it's part of joining up and "playing the game" (take all your 3rd party software crap and jump those of you that believe it, btw) is all fair game. Getting pos offlined by disgruntled members and / or infiltrator spies, all good. We can turn the game off and walk away. Brute force a phbpp domain on a server that is shared on a server / connection with a client that pays you RL isk indicates an idiot for a brain and a retard for a decision making process, imo. Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Darko1107 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:03:00 - [47] Well your betraying some1s trust with all of those things, so whatever way you try and pin it, its always going to be morallly wrong. Personally I dont really care, its just a game after all. However, i do think that the people doing it should be well aware of what they are doing. BoB for instance are seen in pretty much every "Corp theive" abusing him while stealing other peoples POS. Everest. Also, if your guna put spies on your enemies TS while you are in a fleet battle with them, dont shout and whoop when you win it, a poodle would be capable of winning that. Its like playing an RTS with a maphack on. If a RL friend went behind my back and did it in order to offend me, i'd probly be a bit miffed, but it would probly be the case that they were probly just be having a laugh and joke with me so i wouldnt be bothered. Overall i'd say spying infiltrating etc is for boring people. Though reading ASCN forums was always a good laugh so EVERYONE can be let off on that 1 . ------------------ Sig removed, please keep it under the 24,000 byte limit, if you have any questions please email [email protected] - Xorus
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:06:00 - [48] Originally by: Xendie what i think is worse then spying and infiltrating corps/alliances or even being given a sql dump from the enemies web admins is the fact that rules on these forums are effectively being changed to fit what one party ingame wants it be when they are the subject of the spying and infiltrating. now that is lame of CCP to allow. The rules were changed BECAUSE of us, xendie, not FOR us. We OBJECTED to to the stupid "no intel posts / internal forums" rule, it is pathetic, but it's there - now you're screaming that, AFTER it's changed, it's OUR fault? Get a grip. Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:12:00 - [49] Originally by: Dianabolic Brute force a phbpp domain on a server that is shared on a server / connection with a client that pays you RL isk indicates an idiot for a brain and a retard for a decision making process, imo. To me a bruteforce hack, and the more sublte (i lied to gain acces hacking) is one in the same. This mainly stems from the fact that for a lot of us, what goes on our website is more then just eve related. In TBC for example we have been gaming together for years. We are friends. We write things on those forums for our friends, and stuff that has no relation to eve, personal stuff. Just because some idiot thinks its okay to play eve outside the game and on other peoples forums I am just suppose to accept it. Nope. I think it was wrong to hack the server, but i also think it was wrong when you guys hacked other alliances servers by lying to them about whou you were to get access. Play the game...and someone esles forum or ts is not eve. I dont have to load the client to get acces to either.
Galan XIII Forty Two	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:17:00 - [50] Edited by: Galan XIII on 02/01/2007 21:20:19 Morals are easily set aside in real life by most people depending on what can be gained (or lost) by setting them aside. On the internet, it is even easier as he people potentially hurt by these actions are faceless and nameless; as is the person doing the act. It is the same mentality that enabled people to cheat in video games since they were created. They also lie to cover it, rationalize it, and deend it as well intentioned. IF anyone ever played Counterstrike, you will know the levels people can go to for winning and personal glory. Do not expect others to live up to your expectations for moral correctness. All you can do is live to your standards and be proud of that. Be happy in the fact that anyone who considers and does such an act continually is typically a person of low moral fibre and very low self-esteem. Anything to win is much different than anything to win within the bounds of acceptable behaviour. Morals are what seperate us from the animals. Only two animals in existence kill for pleasure. The Leopard and man. (Leopard is up for debate btw according to new studies). Karma is a harsh master. - Galan
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:20:00 - [51] "Play the game...and someone esles forum or ts is not eve. I dont have to load the client to get acces to either." Why are you then granting people access to these based on their game character..? If it has nothing to do with the game, it should not matter if person you grant access to the forum has EVE character in the first place, let alone one that belongs to your corporation.
Lowa Gallente North Star Networks Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:21:00 - [52] Edited by: Lowa on 02/01/2007 21:21:54 Its a tricky question and its all down to each individual. I personally dont like going past some light hearted corp/alliance infiltration including TS (if invited via ingame rules i.e. by joining a corp/alliance with your spy). That said, using that as the ultimate "I win button" I dont really like. Someone said that in the end, the ingame tactics and use of ships and force should be the decisive thing and since a lot of ppl gets...upset and dont think its worth playing if someone is constantly invading their TS and such (been there) it by automagic becomes a very powerful button. I know I'm in that category by the simple fact that I dont play "at that level" coz I think its a bit too much. Some would argue that is not playing to win. Perhaps that is true, well, it is true, by know I play for fun and my rl-corp-friends. Not that dont I like winning but...Meh...its a hard topic. /Lowa What if the truth was something else?
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:22:00 - [53] Originally by: Serapis Aote To me a bruteforce hack, and the more sublte (i lied to gain acces hacking) is one in the same. I see. So, tell me, how does "enter login > logged in" compare to: LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN SERVER CRASH Again? Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Karunel Princeps Corp	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:22:00 - [54] Quote: The person that visits a RL meeting and plays a mate just to gain information for a game is not able to do that in my oppinion. Whoever does that, whoever, loses in RL- period. Originally by: elbenito The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.
Kirja	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:26:00 - [55] You are using out of game methods to gain an in game advantage. While there a lot of sportsmen that use drugs, soccer teams that use bribes, etc... It's a disgrace and once it's discovered consequences will follow. Besides there is a thing called sportsmanship.
Goodtime Girl Amarr Anger Management	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:26:00 - [56] Quote: Anything that involves relationships between human beings is completely legal My dog can say "Sausages" .......... is that legal in Texas
Troubadour Slacker Industries	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:27:00 - [57] Originally by: Darko1107 Well your betraying some1s trust with all of those things, so whatever way you try and pin it, its always going to be morallly wrong. Whose morals? Your's or mine? Since when is there a central authority regulating morality that we all subscribed too. Originally by: Darko1107 Personally I dont really care, its just a game after all. However, i do think that the people doing it should be well aware of what they are doing. BoB for instance are seen in pretty much every "Corp theive" abusing him while stealing other peoples POS. Everest. Also, if your guna put spies on your enemies TS while you are in a fleet battle with them, dont shout and whoop when you win it, a poodle would be capable of winning that. Its like playing an RTS with a maphack on. If you don't care then why post? Go back to farming plexes. And I think people like YOU should be well aware that life isn't fair, and neither is EVE. Spys and infiltration have been utilized in many actual and fictional conflicts. I don't know why people think it's such a big deal that it happens in eve, there are easy ways around it. And spying is VERY different then say using a map-hack in an RTS because spying in EVE is part of the game mechanics, which are meant to emulate human interactions in real life.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:29:00 - [58] Edited by: Serapis Aote on 02/01/2007 21:31:02 Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Serapis Aote To me a bruteforce hack, and the more sublte (i lied to gain acces hacking) is one in the same. I see. So, tell me, how does "enter login > logged in" compare to: LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN LOGIN SERVER CRASH Again? Same goal Same result different tactic you drew a line that if you get someone to give you access by lying to them, then its okay. I just dont differentiate between the two, because I see the goal and the result as wrong, regardless of tactic employed. Its just a difference of opinion. For me the game starts and ends when i open the client, and when i close it. The original post asked for our opinions. this is mine, and i have not seen a good reason yet to change mine.
Luke Skyrider DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:32:00 - [59] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse But morally? No - i am no shiny knight, im just able to realize that behind the PC there are real people. And some borders arent to be crossed.? People need to use their head and dont just let other's (CCP) tell them what is morally right or wrong. We dont need a bunch of rules, but simple rules and common sense. Maybe eve (mmorpg) are different from real life games. Personal, I have done things in eve that im not very proud of. Spying, psychological warfare and infiltration are legal within eve, but many will probably consider this bad sportsmanship and morally corrupt. It's a thin red line and each player has to decide where that line is, not CCP. CCP cant make rules for everything, that would be insane and un-real. Imho, several unwritten rules from real life games apply to eve as well and people seems to forget that. It's easy to hide behind the PC without real life contact. This is a game which equal fun. A game is about winning, but not the be-end-all. It takes two teams with mutual respect to make a good game. Golden rule is, "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." [PvP-Recruitment] \| www.dab-online.com
Orree Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:36:00 - [60] Originally by: Bombcrater For me the moral line is clear. PvP in this game is about fighting, in-game, with ships. You gain an edge over your enemies by being more professional, more organised, and more determined. Gaining that edge by the use of spies is wrong. Using saboteurs, turncoats and TS infiltrators is doubly wrong and utterly lame. There's a certain satisfacion in watching those who live by these lame tactics getting undermined by even more lame tactics, but it's tinged with regret that people are prepared to sink so low. I personally don't leave my morals behind when I hit the connect button. Eve is a game, but the people playing it are very real. I agree. I also realize, however, that what I like and what works for me isn't necessarily the same for someone else. I love this game and I spend a lot of time playing it (not as much as I'd like because of various RL contraints--- wife, kids, graduate school, work...heheh). I will never be so into this game that I will take a "win at any cost" mentality. It doesn't mean that much to me and I just cannot dedicate myself that completely. Put-simply, my sense of self-worth is not derived from anything that occurs in this game. I hang out with like-minded people in this game. I think we do pretty well in EVE as casual players who don't try to dot every "i" or cross every "t." We've come a very long way since we started and we've spent a lot of time fighting the best in EVE. We're not players who feel like were have to seek every single advantage and employ it in order to win. We're a loose-knit group of players who work fairly well with each other, but we'll never be as organized and dedicated to a specific agenda to be able compete on the same level as certain alliances or corporations. I guess the difference I'm talking about here is that I would never really care enough to try most of what is in question in this thread, even if I didn't find it reprehensible.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:37:00 - [61] Originally by: Serapis Aote Same result No, it has a different result - the server ends up OFFLINE! HOW is that POSSIBLY the "same"? You're entitled to your opinion, I'd appreciate you read the posts before replying though, because ours hardly had the same "result", did it? Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Deidranna SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:43:00 - [62] Originally by: Luke Skyrider Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse But morally? No - i am no shiny knight, im just able to realize that behind the PC there are real people. And some borders arent to be crossed.? People need to use their head and dont just let other's (CCP) tell them what is morally right or wrong. We dont need a bunch of rules, but simple rules and common sense. Maybe eve (mmorpg) are different from real life games. Personal, I have done things in eve that im not very proud of. Spying, psychological warfare and infiltration are legal within eve, but many will probably consider this bad sportsmanship and morally corrupt. It's a thin red line and each player has to decide where that line is, not CCP. CCP cant make rules for everything, that would be insane and un-real. Imho, several unwritten rules from real life games apply to eve as well and people seems to forget that. It's easy to hide behind the PC without real life contact. This is a game which equal fun. A game is about winning, but not the be-end-all. It takes two teams with mutual respect to make a good game. Golden rule is, "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." /qft sadly, us few minies are the few remaining ones, with some respect for the other player GM Eldini > Hi, behaving are we?
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:46:00 - [63] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Serapis Aote Same result No, it has a different result - the server ends up OFFLINE! HOW is that POSSIBLY the "same"? You're entitled to your opinion, I'd appreciate you read the posts before replying though, because ours hardly had the same "result", did it? I must be missing something, did the guy brute force hack to gain access or just to shut it down. I thought we were talking about trying to gain access to other people's private websites, where as you like to do it by lying to peeps, and some dude likes to do it by a less subbtle means. But i never said that i condone what was done to you, i think that is wrong. I also think lying to gain access to out of game private sites is wrong. If I was wrong about what happened to your site, I apologize, if the guys goal was just to be an ass an shut off your server, that is very different. But if he was trying to gain access, then i stand by what i said, that in my mind I see very little difference between the two (as i dont agree with either the goal or result that either party is trying for). And once again this is just my opinion, and I think something that alot of people can disagree on.
Darko1107 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:47:00 - [64] Originally by: Troubadour Originally by: Darko1107 Well your betraying some1s trust with all of those things, so whatever way you try and pin it, its always going to be morallly wrong. Whose morals? Your's or mine? Since when is there a central authority regulating morality that we all subscribed too. Originally by: Darko1107 Personally I dont really care, its just a game after all. However, i do think that the people doing it should be well aware of what they are doing. BoB for instance are seen in pretty much every "Corp theive" abusing him while stealing other peoples POS. Everest. Also, if your guna put spies on your enemies TS while you are in a fleet battle with them, dont shout and whoop when you win it, a poodle would be capable of winning that. Its like playing an RTS with a maphack on. If you don't care then why post? Go back to farming plexes. And I think people like YOU should be well aware that life isn't fair, and neither is EVE. Spys and infiltration have been utilized in many actual and fictional conflicts. I don't know why people think it's such a big deal that it happens in eve, there are easy ways around it. And spying is VERY different then say using a map-hack in an RTS because spying in EVE is part of the game mechanics, which are meant to emulate human interactions in real life. I'll post when the hell i want to post. And dont dare tell me what i should know. You dont even slightly know me. You took my calm post and turned yourself into an agressive wreck. I pitty you. Get a grip. "Go back to farming plexs", lol.... ------------------ Sig removed, please keep it under the 24,000 byte limit, if you have any questions please email [email protected] - Xorus
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:48:00 - [65] the eula and the gms (combined with rl laws ofc) define what is fair and what isnt. To balantly put your views on things down as moral standards, mind you in a future online game environment where slavery, torture, mass murder, crime and death penalty are daily business only leads to you looking stupid. If you go by the mentioned guiding authorities you will always be on the safe side and if you personally, your community, your corp, your alliance disagrees with some methods within these rules which you might feel to be "lame" youre free to avoid them. Its your freedom to do so. Eve has seen many lame stuff and sees it on a daily basis. Unless the devs fix it, like the stabbed ravens or the old dual mwd ravens or or or its fair game. As for the whole spy issue, the game honors itself with an image of spying, scamming, backhand deals and treachery. All morally wrong yet part of a more or less lawless society (lawless in ingame terms). Out of game laws will define the rest really. If you cant secure your forums, cant secure ur ts dont use it. You try to use an out of game tool to gain advantage and cry when it turns out be an dissadvantage. Ive been playing online games since 8-9 years. In this time in all games ive played ppl used to spy, some went even beyond the legal line to get an advantage. It teached me one thing. Moral is subjective and unless forged into strict and enforced gamerules you will still find ppl exploiting them to their own advantage. Perfect example are the current conflicts. Each entity had spies in Ascn, each entity had access to ts (as every member in ascn was given the chance to join ts) and everyone had a board account and used this way to gather intel. Yet bob gets called out for it ? D2 trying to spin this into a white and black thing doesnt work out, youre all as guilty just maybe not as successfull or not as much in the limelight.
INZi coracao ardente	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:51:00 - [66] i would say that anything goes in game, as well as corp theft, this is usage of game mechanics. but outside of game with ts spying, forum hacking, etc is strictly out morale aspects and users off these acts could at least try to feel some guilt. find it hard to believe that ccp whould encouraged team speak spying and forum hacking as part off their game
USN CVN72 Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:54:00 - [67] spying is critical to any productive campaign. I personally love spying. i do it all the time and have yet to be caught. Fix knows i got a Spy in the heart of thier rank and file. I just hope one day i expose him under the most productive circumstances... Cheers!!!
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:55:00 - [68] Edited by: Cmd Woodlouse on 02/01/2007 21:57:04 Originally by: Kcel Chim the eula and the gms (combined with rl laws ofc) define what is fair and what isnt. The easy and most pleasant way out. Not for me. And neither D2 or G ever used TS spies just to win Fleetbattles via the I Win Button. Believe it or not, we dont like that stuff. --------------------------------
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 21:57:00 - [69] Originally by: Serapis Aote Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Serapis Aote Same result No, it has a different result - the server ends up OFFLINE! HOW is that POSSIBLY the "same"? You're entitled to your opinion, I'd appreciate you read the posts before replying though, because ours hardly had the same "result", did it? I must be missing something, did the guy brute force hack to gain access or just to shut it down. I thought we were talking about trying to gain access to other people's private websites, where as you like to do it by lying to peeps, and some dude likes to do it by a less subbtle means. But i never said that i condone what was done to you, i think that is wrong. I also think lying to gain access to out of game private sites is wrong. If I was wrong about what happened to your site, I apologize, if the guys goal was just to be an ass an shut off your server, that is very different. His methods meant resulted in the server being shut down. I believe as a result (and it's a common result) the servers had to be shut-down. I very much doubt his intent was to shut the servers down, but that was very much the result, and a common one at that - one he should have expected. Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:01:00 - [70] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Edited by: Cmd Woodlouse on 02/01/2007 21:57:04 Originally by: Kcel Chim the eula and the gms (combined with rl laws ofc) define what is fair and what isnt. The easy and most pleasant way out. Not for me. And neither D2 or G ever used TS spies just to win Fleetbattles via the I Win Button. Believe it or not, we dont like that stuff. As i said if you like to fight with one hand tied behind your back it is your choice and more power to you. You try to enforce your moral views on the game by stating that anything within the game rules (defined by the authorities i named) but outside of your narrow moral view is wrong. As far as Ts spying goes, noone really knows how excessive it is or was used. BoB admitted to use it but thats already enough to spread misstrust and confusion amongst your enemies. I guess noone apart from the highest rank in bob will know how often ts spies really gave usefull info and how often a simple cov op uncovered ****ty ascn fleetmovement. As shown before its easy to blame the losses and everything on a method you cant fight then to admit you did poorly. D2 fought Ascn before and you slaughtered them in the same way without ts spies. So i doubt it did much of a difference...
Noggy Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:01:00 - [71] For me personally it's quite black and white really. The moment you cannot roleplay your actions in the game is the moment you are overstepping the line. When you cannot identify the boundries between real life and a game your morals are under scrutiny imho. Stealing, infiltrating, lieng etc etc in game is totally acceptable to me as its part of the game. The moment someone takes these actions out of game they are morally wrong. Hacking servers, ts, forums, homecomputers, work computers albeit legal or not is totally unaceptable in the community and the moment you do that you need to stop and ask yourself if you really should be playing games. As an owner of a webserver myself I see people trying to hack it all the time. I find it both sad in a pathetic kind of way and also unacceptable for a person to be trying to gain real life information from me due to a game. If you are willing to break the law and even cause real life damage to someone to get an advantage in a computer game there is seriously something wrong with you.
Omega Man The Geddy Foundation	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:02:00 - [72] Well it is okay when you are doing it. It is not okay when it is being done to you. This ruling can be applied to many things.
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:03:00 - [73] "And neither D2 or G ever used TS spies just to win Fleetbattles via the I Win Button. Believe it or not, we dont like that stuff." This brings interesting point.... how much of actual TS spying is going out there, and how much of it is just baseless accusations and responsibility dodging in the form of "well they must've had a TS spy otherwise we would've won. After all everyone know those cheaters and hackers never play fair and do nothing but exploit, or they'd never beat us"... o.(
OozoO Caldari Decadence. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:03:00 - [74] I guess we'll never be able for some gentlemans agreement - anyone will break it for sure. my intel sometimes consists on rl issues that guys use to talk about on corpchat / ts / whereever, I feel bad about this somehow - I am not their friend (I pretend to do so) its none of my business. would I fool someone in RL just to get information about his alliance? thats sick. its somewhat necessary, when I read chrony's intel from our POS' I always feel I'm doing the right thing. where to draw the line? I cant give you an answer. breaking into anyones account is a no-go, everybody has the right to have a good time and this is criminal action no matter what.
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:07:00 - [75] Originally by: Kcel Chim You try to enforce your moral views on the game by stating that anything within the game rules (defined by the authorities i named) but outside of your narrow moral view is wrong I dont think my kind of moral view is kinda narrow. Looking at all the replies here there a lots of different views on this subject. I dont enforce anything on anybody. But im questioning the actions done by lots of entitites in this game. Its a sensitive matter, but still very interesting. --------------------------------
The Armin Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:08:00 - [76] Edited by: The Armin on 02/01/2007 22:10:09 TS Spies, pos saboteurs, and forum "hacking" either it's "Social engineering" or bruted, sinks to a record low level imo. I'll never accept that my corp, alliance, or allies condone such tactics, and fortunately, we don't. Other corporations and alliances condones these tactics, wich is their problem. I don't care if other alliances uses such tactics against me, my corporation, my alliance and/or it's allies. It's their dignity, and honour which gets lost, not mine, or ours.
Xeriuz Caldari The Puppet Masters.	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:09:00 - [77] well if someone hacks someone and post private forum post on eve-o and or gets a TS or VENT server pass and gives that out, isnt that part of the illegal as it a part of the persons computer that someone hacks? not so good in laws put yeah hacking is crossing the line imo. and imo a spy should only just get intel from ally channel forums and mabye TS or VENT i mean you cant get them anywhere eals unless you hack someone and (guess) some passwords. ______________________________________________ X You Never Know What You Have Until You Lose It
Morning Maniac Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:09:00 - [78] Personally I play this game with the same moral values I have in rl. Having said that I know that you have to accept the fact that if you play a game with 100k+ people there will be a large number of people who I wouldn't sit down with to play a game of monopoly. I think the use of spies, thieves, step on people's feelings on the forums or through smack is all on the same level really, very very low. I respect people who just show up to a fight and leave the rest at home. MM http://eve.xonectic.com/forum/(out of game) EVE University commercial
Olgzr Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:09:00 - [79] Edited by: Olgzr on 02/01/2007 22:10:26 It all comes down to the same thing. Sit in empire and mine veld or goto 0.0 and deal with lack of game integrity.
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:11:00 - [80] Originally by: Omega Man Well it is okay when you are doing it. It is not okay when it is being done to you. This ruling can be applied to many things. For once, try to start up that brain of yours before posting.
Sun Ra Godspeed You Black Emperor	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:11:00 - [81] Edited by: Sun Ra on 02/01/2007 22:13:43 Look i dont see why people get there knickers in a twist, look we all agree spying is part of the game, so if you're a spy in a corp what you gonna do refuse forum and ts access??? comon get real. One thing you shouldnt do is give ts info and forum logins out. Spying is part of the game and forum access and ts access is part of that Arcane Frankologies - 'plz stop guys it's xmas'
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:12:00 - [82] Originally by: Dianabolic His methods meant resulted in the server being shut down. I believe as a result (and it's a common result) the servers had to be shut-down. I very much doubt his intent was to shut the servers down, but that was very much the result, and a common one at that - one he should have expected. Ok I see The result - I am talking about is the end result being access to private out of game forums. I would categorize what happened to your forums as a collateral result of the tactic, because it was not the intended result, but was a likely result. But i still see no difference. And once again it is mainly because I do not believe in the underlying goal of either method. I dont know if what you want me to admit is that there is some sort of degree issue here. Where what this guy did was somehow worse because of the collateral result. I can see where you are coming from with that, but I just cannot agree because all results stem from the same mindframe of taking things out of the game. I just draw a big red line there and everything that goes over it gets lumped together as stuff i would prefer not to see happen. In my mind what he did was wrong, not because he shut down the server, but because of why he was doing what he was doing. I think to some degree we are viewing the same issue from different sides. You see what he did as wrong because of the collateral result of causing the server to go offline. I see what he did as wrong from the inception of the idea that going to someone elses forum to play eve is okay in the first place.
OozoO Caldari Decadence. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:15:00 - [83] problem is, most corps mix RL + ingame issues - our corp has RL meetings regularly and I wouldnt like to have a spy among those people
HotBalls Johnson Caldari Altposting Asshats Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:16:00 - [84] Just FYI the guy who's been doing the hacking currently lives in Jakarta, and Indonesia has no extradition treaty with the U.S. (and I doubt it has one with Germany, Woodlouse.) Besides which, most (American) laws related to computers and hacking require at least $5000 of damages to be done for charges to be pressed, etc. Usually this is measured in the cost of the manhours to solve the security issue, and if you walked into court saying he hacked your forums and publicized intel and got a fleet of internet spaceships killed with some equivalent value in real dollars, you'd be laughed out. On top of this, he's been doing this through zombied computers outside of Indonesia, likely more than one, and with each nation it goes through the more muddled the issue becomes to international law. So what I'm saying is bringing legality into this won't get you far.
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:17:00 - [85] Originally by: OozoO problem is, most corps mix RL + ingame issues - our corp has RL meetings regularly and I wouldnt like to have a spy among those people That usually is not a problem. People abusing it are. --------------------------------
Player One Minmatar Die wilde 13	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:17:00 - [86] Originally by: Sun Ra Look i dotn see why people get there knickers in a twist, look we all agree spying is part of the game, so if you're a spy in a corp what you gonan do refuse forum and ts access??? comon get real. One thing you shouldnt do is give ts info and forum logins out. Spying is part of the game and forum access and ts access is part of that but bob style in doing it, or better, presenting it to the "community" is wrong. if you have access to enemy ts, forum, wife, pos ... cool for you... keep it for you ... we dont care. or dont want to care.
OozoO Caldari Decadence. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:20:00 - [87] Originally by: HotBalls Johnson Just FYI the guy who's been doing the hacking currently lives in Jakarta you sure about this? I'm not sure about it, or he must be active very late at night
OozoO Caldari Decadence. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:21:00 - [88] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse That usually is not a problem. People abusing it are. you could easily infiltrate a roleplay corp without having those moral issues - thats the problem to me :)
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:30:00 - [89] Edited by: j0sephine on 02/01/2007 22:31:38 "I can see where you are coming from with that, but I just cannot agree because all results stem from the same mindframe of taking things out of the game. I just draw a big red line there and everything that goes over it gets lumped together as stuff i would prefer not to see happen." Guess it boils down to where you draw the "out of game" line. E.g. if you decide a web forum is "out of game" period (although it's possible to access some of them with in-game browser which muddles up the issue, but least leave it at that) ... then any kind of attempt to access it --no matter if through in-game or out-of-game mechanics-- is crossing the line for you. On the other hand if someone treats game-oriented forum as part of the game itself, they may find it acceptable to gain access to it through game character. (or like pointed out, often are granted such access simply because they belong to game corporation) For situation like this, it's using out of game tools to directly attack the out of game tool used to host the game element that may be questionable ... because it also crosses the "out of game" line, it's just the line is drawn in different spot. In the end all it's going to achieve is corporations upping their security to protect themselves from this kind of external attacks -- entirely separate directors forums hosted on separate machines, separate and private direct communication channels etc. Hardly game breaking evolution of things.
Haros Redemption Inc	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:32:00 - [90] Edited by: Haros on 02/01/2007 22:37:04 To all the bob saying its within game mechanics and legal in rl, I agree. To all the ppl saying morality lies in the eye of the beholder, I agree How come u didnt remember this : when u flamed Shin Ra and BE for using a warp cores? when u flame everybody who go gank squads instead of warping in ur blobs? when u post about ppl that log out in warp bubbles? Is it illegal (Although i hear warp cores are beeing banned in Texas)? Is it out of game? Finally Diana, u petitioned to change the rule after u had been posting ASCN internal forums posts for 2 months because u thought it was lame I sadly will agree with Xendie on that one. About espionage CCP is unwilling to let 1 player have 1 account for obvious reasons. They need to implement tools of finding and punising spy accounts and this should be better than the bounty - i pod myself with an alt n get the isk - system. Then they can call it a game of intrigue and espionage. It like calling a game where all ships have 1 hipoint and there is a great variaty of guns doing 1-10,2-5, 3 etc damage, a combat oriented game. Although Bob are hypocritical (some of them anyways) about the whole thing it is not their fault - it is broken part of the game that should be fixxed by CCP
Heintron Caldari Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille Tre Kroner	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:41:00 - [91] Originally by: j0sephine "However. Using methods such as Teamspeak & (outgame) forum "infiltration" (ur not really spies, dont humor urselves) is not that different for buying isk with cash. Ur going out of game to gain an advantage in it. & taking it out of game isnt kewl." There's a catch to this reasoning -- if we classify things like game-oriented TS channel and game-oriented forum as "out of game", then the people who run these are using "out of game" means to gain in-game advantage themselves, which in turn is quite against the game EULA. You can't have your cookie and eat it -- either this is out of game medium and as such should be not existing/utilized in the first place, or it is part of the game and as such fair play to game-based infiltration etc. Besides there's then also issue of soon-to-come in-game voice communication. Will it be "fair game" to compromise with game character because it's part of the game client, even though it performs the same function 3rd party based voice communication does? Or will it be off limits because of 3rd party applications allowing the same... but in this particular case the "it's not part of game" argument when it's part of game client is seriously going to look even more silly it does now... I believe you could defend hacking someones forum with that little speach.
KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:42:00 - [92] No morale limits at all. War is war. KIA EVE Home
Stockarian Minmatar eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:43:00 - [93] We can speak of these tactics until both sides are blue in the face. The entities that use the most backhanded tactics will always say "it's in the game". There should be a line you don't cross when it comes to common courtesy for the other players, but there's not, and most likely won't ever be. Joining someone's corp for the sole reason of infiltrating their private forums and/or TS, (look closely), IN MY OPINION, is wrong. I don't think morals come into play at all. The question is: Is it right or wrong? Would you stab someone you've known as a friend in the back and consider that right? I wouldn't. Sadly this happens all too frequently in eve these days. BTW, the hacking thing---Very bad. Man should have his nuts cut off. To save time, why don't you avoid the facts and get right to the spin.
Julia Lycera	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:43:00 - [94] Just from my humble opinion. If you are given access to an opposing sides forum or Vent-TS2 server via deceit or espionage then you have done nothing wrong, legally or morally. Lets say your corp or alliance is at war with Roshambo, they have proven impossible to beat yet one of your corp members managed to slip and alt into their corp. He/she is given TS and Forum access and during his/her stay is cordial and friendly. What is wrong with passing infomation gatherd via alt along to your corp mates ?. Now if you gain access to forums and TS by breaching the site or server illegally then i can see where the line should be drawn. Is this morally wrong to lie and deceive another human to gain access to said forums and TS ?. Yes i believe it is, we all know we shouldn't lie and we all know we shouldn't be deceitful. But reality is humans will do almost anything to gain an upper hand when we have alot to loose, be it in game or real life. So long as it dose not have RL consequences for the owners of the forums and TS server then i'm all for syps and alt syps. If anything i would hope CCP allow more features for espionage and Intell gathering but i don't see how it could be done beyond the current model. P.S i would post with main but CCP seems to like making me wait for weeks to activate my account.
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:43:00 - [95] Originally by: KIAEddZ No morale limits at all. War is war. eddz, i saw the video of your RL meeting. war? ... --------------------------------
Mitch Taylor Caldari Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:44:00 - [96] I never thought we would be spied on. Then one day an enemy told me which character in my corp was his alt. I was intrigued to know which director had recruited him, if the standard proceedures had been followed etc etc. They had, this told me one thing. People will do what they need to do to get an advantage. It appears perfectly legal from a game point of view. I believe forum hacking is morally wrong to answer the ops question. I was quite flattered in the end, seems they couldn't kill us the traditional way :) Dark-Rising
Xendie Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:45:00 - [97] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Xendie what i think is worse then spying and infiltrating corps/alliances or even being given a sql dump from the enemies web admins is the fact that rules on these forums are effectively being changed to fit what one party ingame wants it be when they are the subject of the spying and infiltrating. now that is lame of CCP to allow. The rules were changed BECAUSE of us, xendie, not FOR us. We OBJECTED to to the stupid "no intel posts / internal forums" rule, it is pathetic, but it's there - now you're screaming that, AFTER it's changed, it's OUR fault? Get a grip. you are the ones that have used OOG forum info on these forums in the past and then it was very much ok. when you are the recipient of it you whine and whine to your moderators so the rules gets changed. you did it on the sig images and you did it on this. get a grip yourself. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:51:00 - [98] Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Xendie what i think is worse then spying and infiltrating corps/alliances or even being given a sql dump from the enemies web admins is the fact that rules on these forums are effectively being changed to fit what one party ingame wants it be when they are the subject of the spying and infiltrating. now that is lame of CCP to allow. The rules were changed BECAUSE of us, xendie, not FOR us. We OBJECTED to to the stupid "no intel posts / internal forums" rule, it is pathetic, but it's there - now you're screaming that, AFTER it's changed, it's OUR fault? Get a grip. you are the ones that have used OOG forum info on these forums in the past and then it was very much ok. when you are the recipient of it you whine and whine to your moderators so the rules gets changed. you did it on the sig images and you did it on this. get a grip yourself. Are you so dense or did you not even bother reading the mans post?
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:53:00 - [99] Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Xendie what i think is worse then spying and infiltrating corps/alliances or even being given a sql dump from the enemies web admins is the fact that rules on these forums are effectively being changed to fit what one party ingame wants it be when they are the subject of the spying and infiltrating. now that is lame of CCP to allow. The rules were changed BECAUSE of us, xendie, not FOR us. We OBJECTED to to the stupid "no intel posts / internal forums" rule, it is pathetic, but it's there - now you're screaming that, AFTER it's changed, it's OUR fault? Get a grip. you are the ones that have used OOG forum info on these forums in the past and then it was very much ok. when you are the recipient of it you whine and whine to your moderators so the rules gets changed. you did it on the sig images and you did it on this. get a grip yourself. We are the ones that have used information that we were GIVEN, xendie, stop letting your bitterness get in the way of your judgement. ANY corp we have infiltrated use of the forums AND ts has been MANDATORY. You say get a grip yet it's you who point blank refuses to engage the notion that, actually, we're not cheats, nor do we have anyone high up in CCP, you simply cannot get it round your nouse that we're BETTER than you. Prior to the sig rules "change" THERE WAS NO RULE u muppet. People had been making sigs of a similar nature to ours for YEARS prior to us doing the ascn set - you think we wanted them banned and then whined to have them put back? ROFL. Sit down, step back, get over it. Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:54:00 - [100] "I believe you could defend hacking someones forum with that little speach." I guess it'd be taking the things rather backward, since the argument was it's possible to view external forums as part of game which makes them fair game to game-based infiltration. But on the other hand yes, you could probably say if someone sees external forums as out-of-game thing, then using "out of game" means to gain access to it (hacking) is reasonable approach to take. This is imo somewhat more muddled up than the earlier take on it because using the out-of-game ("real world") tools on equally out-of-game physical hardware tends to be viewed as illegal ... but ultimately this is just personal opinion i hold, based on where i draw the "in game/out of it" line myself.
Omega Man The Geddy Foundation	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:54:00 - [101] Originally by: Sinlare Originally by: Omega Man Well it is okay when you are doing it. It is not okay when it is being done to you. This ruling can be applied to many things. For once, try to start up that brain of yours before posting. I knew the mix of sarcasm and flexible morality contained in my post was going to be a bit much for some people. If you dont understand it, best to keep quiet and not look to silly being clever.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:55:00 - [102] Originally by: Heintron Originally by: j0sephine "However. Using methods such as Teamspeak & (outgame) forum "infiltration" (ur not really spies, dont humor urselves) is not that different for buying isk with cash. Ur going out of game to gain an advantage in it. & taking it out of game isnt kewl." There's a catch to this reasoning -- if we classify things like game-oriented TS channel and game-oriented forum as "out of game", then the people who run these are using "out of game" means to gain in-game advantage themselves, which in turn is quite against the game EULA. You can't have your cookie and eat it -- either this is out of game medium and as such should be not existing/utilized in the first place, or it is part of the game and as such fair play to game-based infiltration etc. Besides there's then also issue of soon-to-come in-game voice communication. Will it be "fair game" to compromise with game character because it's part of the game client, even though it performs the same function 3rd party based voice communication does? Or will it be off limits because of 3rd party applications allowing the same... but in this particular case the "it's not part of game" argument when it's part of game client is seriously going to look even more silly it does now... I believe you could defend hacking someones forum with that little speach. I think you could, nice point. if i dont need to run the client to make it work, its out of game. That makes it simple and easy.
Julia Lycera	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:58:00 - [103] Originally by: Serapis Aote Originally by: Heintron Originally by: j0sephine "However. Using methods such as Teamspeak & (outgame) forum "infiltration" (ur not really spies, dont humor urselves) is not that different for buying isk with cash. Ur going out of game to gain an advantage in it. & taking it out of game isnt kewl." There's a catch to this reasoning -- if we classify things like game-oriented TS channel and game-oriented forum as "out of game", then the people who run these are using "out of game" means to gain in-game advantage themselves, which in turn is quite against the game EULA. You can't have your cookie and eat it -- either this is out of game medium and as such should be not existing/utilized in the first place, or it is part of the game and as such fair play to game-based infiltration etc. Besides there's then also issue of soon-to-come in-game voice communication. Will it be "fair game" to compromise with game character because it's part of the game client, even though it performs the same function 3rd party based voice communication does? Or will it be off limits because of 3rd party applications allowing the same... but in this particular case the "it's not part of game" argument when it's part of game client is seriously going to look even more silly it does now... I believe you could defend hacking someones forum with that little speach. I think you could, nice point. if i dont need to run the client to make it work, its out of game. That makes it simple and easy. It would really come down to wether CCP views it as a breach of the EULA not us legal beavers on the forums
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:59:00 - [104] Edited by: j0sephine on 02/01/2007 23:00:06 "if i dont need to run the client to make it work, its out of game. That makes it simple and easy." OK, let me then bring up again the point which is being conveniently brushed off since it just doesn't fit this line of logic. When there is in-game voice communication included come next patch or whenever, will it be perfectly acceptable for people to spy it, while at the same time people will still cry fool about doing the very same thing on TS/Vent..? edit: and if external forums and communication are "out of game", how do you accept people utilizing them in the first place, when it'd make it clear case of "out of game tools used to gain in-game advantage" which is against the game EULA..?
Verus Potestas Caldari The I-Win Button	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:00:00 - [105] Social engineering to any level is acceptable IMO. It isn't nice, and it certainly isn't sportsmanlike. Still, that isn't what matters really. Any form of hacking is completely out. --- In third-party forums we trust Did i ask for anyone to copy this into their sig? No, ****heads, its my text, not yours.
Spikum Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:04:00 - [106] I would say there are two moralities from where you can take alook at things, the first one is the "ingame-morality" this morality is for podkills, alliancewars, gankage and whatsoever, from this point of view you can say The role of a spy is a very usefull in a war. Why not Create a spy and infiltrate the hostile corp? The "Reallife-morality" is thisone where you feel sorry for a guy you just ganked who is in game for like two months ratting in a .4. from thispoint you will see the spy issue as some unfair stuff, i think i dont need to mention exactly since my english is too limited anyway i guess. The Point is where it leaves the game mechanics and goes the step further, e.g. Teamspeak infiltration for example. The thing really is how you got to the information for infiltrating a tool which all players use to make their gameplay easy, Teamspeak is just a outgame chatchannel. When a guy manages to gain the information from using game mechanics its all right. The point is where it comes to Passwordguessing, hacking,exploiting and so on, those are the real unfair things which really cross the border and shouldnt be tolerated by anyone at all.
Dominie Dirtch	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:05:00 - [107] I find it highly amusing that BoB take the moral high ground here after them selfs posting internal blogs and messages from ASCN forums or are you all forgetting that? BoB deserve nothing less than what has been done to them - weather it be through legal or illegal means. BoB have destroyed peoples games through ripping friendships apart, they had no mercy, i don't expect them to receive any. War is War, bring morality into it and you will loose. Good on you Kugut, well done on your intel. To BoB, how does it feel on the other side for once?
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:06:00 - [108] Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 02/01/2007 23:09:08 3 years ago, I would have said even putting a spy in another corporation was in poor taste. But after witnessing the things I have in the last 3 years of EVE, I've become a little bit desensitized. I think the line is crossed when you do any of the following: 1. log into somebody else's account (without their permission) 2. damage, permanently or temporarily somebody else's real life property (like the corp that had their forums destroyed a few months back) 3. Attempt to acquire real life intel about an individual for the purpose of stealing money from them, or worse. Hacking into a forum doesn't really make my list. I've seen it done by various types of people. One kind has the desire to cause real life damage, and the other just to gather information to be used in game. I've known people who would use said information to log onto accounts, and I've known others who would deliberately ignore information that would get them into other player's accounts, and even their paypal accounts. "Hacking" might be illegal, but based on the number of virus's and spyware programs I clean off of my relatives computers every few months it seems that gathering information about a fictional eve corporation would be very low on the priority list when most hacking is directly involved with acquiring passwords and account numbers for REAL LIFE money accounts. Theres a big difference between hacking into something, and hacking something apart. EDIT: And yes I know its illegal in some places. So is copying mp3's...I'm sure the entire eve community is against that. Shamis
Hakera Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:07:00 - [109] It seems the consensus is OOG servers/tools may be infiltrated through disguise or user info leak, but their function should not be disrupted (hacked, ddos etc etc). Whether you find it acceptable or not, and by extension socially acceptable within eve by our 'society of eggers'. But then we come back to not just morality but consequences of actions and the effect of social opinion on your own decision making, whether you want to be seen as the lame, use all methods to win at whatever cost or to simply not lose at any cost i spose.
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:10:00 - [110] Originally by: Verus Potestas Social engineering to any level is acceptable IMO. It isn't nice, and it certainly isn't sportsmanlike. Still, that isn't what matters really. Tell me why it doesnt matter really. Tell me. --------------------------------
Dominie Dirtch Minmatar Revival.	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:11:00 - [111] Additionally, to Molle. Posting someones name is an infringement of their rights. If you want to play real-life-cop then you need to catch up on your rules. As for letting their 'boss' know, 1- I doubt they would listen to you 2- It would give confidence to their boss in their employee's abilities I doubt a game would cause this 'person' any problems in their real life at all, but nevertheless, you find that you need to post it anyway :) Just shows how much it has affected you. ---- My sound shall render you dead
Luthien Firefoot Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:12:00 - [112] When playing hide and seek, one of the key rules is to keep you eyes shut while your opponents hide. Keeping you eyes open, or looking through fingers is like ts / forum spying, corp infiltration by lying etc... It's cheating, plain and simple. If it helps someone win eve, then congratulations, but they are a loser in my eyes. As for the association that I read once, that spying is done in rl etc.. Well that's true, they are usually shot or made to disappear by your enemies, because they are extremely dangerous, if caught obviously. Spying in eve holds no risk, unlike pvp, especially if the perpetrators are 'powerful'. After all what can the eve community do to the blessed few... It's just a case of how far a person / organisation is prepared to go, to guarantee a 'win'... Views are my own, blah blah
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:12:00 - [113] Originally by: Dominie Dirtch I find it highly amusing that BoB take the moral high ground here after them selfs posting internal blogs and messages from ASCN forums or are you all forgetting that? BoB deserve nothing less than what has been done to them - weather it be through legal or illegal means. BoB have destroyed peoples games through ripping friendships apart, they had no mercy, i don't expect them to receive any. War is War, bring morality into it and you will loose. Good on you Kugut, well done on your intel. To BoB, how does it feel on the other side for once? you are even worse than any bob spy --------------------------------
Cipher7	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:14:00 - [114] IMO espionage and manipulation are part of Eve's "cool" factor but I also think said espionage and manipulation should be PART of the game not ABOVE it. Like instead of making an alt and using that, there should be skills for spying on a corp. That is...spying should be IN-GAME not OUT OF GAME. Anything beyond that isn't gaming, it's meta-gaming, that is, going OUTside the game and winning the game that way. I personally don't do that. If I have to use alts to play Eve, I rather just quit.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:15:00 - [115] Edited by: Serapis Aote on 02/01/2007 23:16:28 Originally by: j0sephine Edited by: j0sephine on 02/01/2007 23:00:06 "if i dont need to run the client to make it work, its out of game. That makes it simple and easy." OK, let me then bring up again the point which is being conveniently brushed off since it just doesn't fit this line of logic. When there is in-game voice communication included come next patch or whenever, will it be perfectly acceptable for people to spy it, while at the same time people will still cry fool about doing the very same thing on TS/Vent..? yes, seems fairgame to me, if you can use only in game mechanics to get on, then by all means it seems to be in the game then to me. Originally by: j0sephine edit: and if external forums and communication are "out of game", how do you accept people utilizing them in the first place, when it'd make it clear case of "out of game tools used to gain in-game advantage" which is against the game EULA..? Personally i would say about 70-80% of what happens on our forums have nothing to do with eve at all. Not to mention what is meant by that line is the EULA is out of game tools (programs/scripts) that effect the way the client and the game run. In a nutshell, "tools" is a term of art as used in the contract, and in this instance forums are not a "tool" in that regard. Edit: Although i have always somewhat thought that TS/vent were at least partly against that part of the EULA, and companies just didnt want to do anything about them, or couldnt.
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:16:00 - [116] "When playing hide and seek, one of the key rules is to keep you eyes shut while your opponents hide. Keeping you eyes open, or looking through fingers is like ts / forum spying, corp infiltration by lying etc..." To keep your eyes shut is one of rules of hide and seek. There is no rule in EVE which prohibits infiltration. To the contrary, it's said to be part of the game world rules. Therefore infiltration in EVE (following rules of the game) is by no means like keeping your eyes open in hide and seek (breaking rules of the game) don't mix your games up ^^
Tomsudy Minmatar Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:33:00 - [117] its just kinda sad really that people would resort to that sort of thing in a game but if they want to i guess there is no real way to stop anyone ________________________________________ THTA
AlvynNevins Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:34:00 - [118] Eve should be fun to play. It's about friendship and camaraderie. If someone needs help, i will help. I like shooting things. That's fun for me. Some people like building stuff and enjoy that For some people it's fun to behave like a friend but to infiltrate your corp/alliance which you have built up with friends. It's not the kind of style of gaming i (and i think all of us in RATEL) like. I think you cross the border when you log into your "enemies" TS-server and start brabbling while you listen for fleetcommands. Hacking into a webserver etc. just to gain information to win a war is just absolutely low. Fight with your virtual guns :)
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:34:00 - [119] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Originally by: KIAEddZ No morale limits at all. War is war. eddz, i saw the video of your RL meeting. war? ... you seem to be fixed to this rl meeting stuff so ill add to it. A rl meeting always bears the risk of someone beeing dishonest. Welcome to the internet. Some ppl lie about their rl even if it doesnt grant them any advantage ingame just to feel better or to look better. I for one go to those meets always with a grain of salt knowing fairly well that someone might talk bollox there. The point is a corp of 200 guys all friends and really tight is illusional. You will have your 5-10 m8s you trust with your life the rest are corpies you might just meet once a year. Completely unrelated to internet spacegames there have been many cases where m8s sold out m8s or best friends cheated on best friends irl and there still are every day. To think just because someone is in your corp that he must be loyal upright and have no ill feelings is abit naiv or ? I mean it doesnt even cover the fact that some relationships turn sour over a game over time, similar to spying and corpthefts. In short im quiet sure eddz exspects that there could be someone going to those rl meets who might sooner or later stab him in the back (ingame) but having a rl blast > ingame worries any time of the day.
Xendie Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:37:00 - [120] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Xendie what i think is worse then spying and infiltrating corps/alliances or even being given a sql dump from the enemies web admins is the fact that rules on these forums are effectively being changed to fit what one party ingame wants it be when they are the subject of the spying and infiltrating. now that is lame of CCP to allow. The rules were changed BECAUSE of us, xendie, not FOR us. We OBJECTED to to the stupid "no intel posts / internal forums" rule, it is pathetic, but it's there - now you're screaming that, AFTER it's changed, it's OUR fault? Get a grip. you are the ones that have used OOG forum info on these forums in the past and then it was very much ok. when you are the recipient of it you whine and whine to your moderators so the rules gets changed. you did it on the sig images and you did it on this. get a grip yourself. We are the ones that have used information that we were GIVEN, xendie, stop letting your bitterness get in the way of your judgement. ANY corp we have infiltrated use of the forums AND ts has been MANDATORY. You say get a grip yet it's you who point blank refuses to engage the notion that, actually, we're not cheats, nor do we have anyone high up in CCP, you simply cannot get it round your nouse that we're BETTER than you. Prior to the sig rules "change" THERE WAS NO RULE u muppet. People had been making sigs of a similar nature to ours for YEARS prior to us doing the ascn set - you think we wanted them banned and then whined to have them put back? ROFL. Sit down, step back, get over it. i dont trust your word further then my nose protrudes out from my face. you were given the info, yeah right. kugutsumen were GIVEN a sql dump from your forums. you were allowed to post screenies and inside information you had gotten(god knows how) from other alliances forums and webservers. when kugutsumen posted about bob you whined and cried and screamed hax/sploits and so on to the moderators so they ban him from the forums. why should we believe you who has in the past stolen/been given info from other people forums/web servers and posted it on these forums and not him? you look at it as impossible that someone in your midst would do something like giving all the info out to someone but it happens to everyone at some point. as you propably know very well yourself. you need to plug the intel hole and i would start with your server admins who gave away the sql dump and not cry so damn much about it. get a grip. as for the sig rules yes there have been moderation rules of sigs before and you know it since you have been petitioning every single on of my sigs for any remote chance of giving me a warning. get a life Diana. and personal attacks such as calling me a muppet will be reported as soon as [email protected] works again. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Dr Einkeisel Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:42:00 - [121] Edited by: Dr Einkeisel on 02/01/2007 23:42:12 Originally by: Ramblin Man Originally by: Julia Lycera If you are given access to an opposing sides forum or Vent-TS2 server via deceit or espionage then you have done nothing wrong, legally or morally. Just as a note, you stressing given is a straw man. You're being "given" access under false pretenses. Imo, that's more akin to stealing. I dont understand how its under false pretenses, when I am on my BoB char I play the char in bob. When Iam on my ASCN Char Iam playing on a char in ASCN. If I partake in corp ops help with the alliance then I am just the an average member. What I choose to do with my ASCN char be that pass on imformation etc, has nothing to do with my alter ego. What Iam trying to say is - When I play as my BoB char, I am in bob roleplaying a pilot in a ship in bob. When I play as my ASCN Char, Iam roleplaying a pilot in ASCN What I choose to do with any the imformation I required from either alliance is my own business. If I have been passed imformation to log onto the forums and onto TS while roleplaying that character, then that is totaly correct since; am I not a member of ASCN? is that not the persona I am roleplaying? And the same goes if I was to pass imformation about BOB onto ASCN ? Im finding it hard to explain what I mean here hopefully somone will save me from my own confusion oh and I know this is about bob and ASCN, I was just using that as an example since its very recent
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:42:00 - [122] Originally by: KIAHicks Edited by: KIAHicks on 02/01/2007 23:37:15 I don't have any problem with people spying on teamspeak, reading internal forums and in game alliance chat channels so long as they obtained that information by getting a character into the alliance/corp and were then given that information by those that run the alliance/corp. That is in game, social engineering/trust manipulation which is totally an acceptable part of eve. It makes the game interesting (although some will disagree). If however the person is not a member of the alliance/corp and has not been granted access to teamspeak/forums or been provided access by a disgruntled opposition member, then that is where i would draw the line. Hacking, brute force or socially that does not meet the above criteria would be objectionable to me. NOTE socially does not include ingame social manipulation which I don't have a major objection to (although I still agree alts are too easy to use, there isn't much we or ccp can do to stop that. People would just buy multiple accounts and if C.C matching was done, they'd just have friends/family pay for one account etc) Now if we're talking about morals, as in real life morals, I'd object to everything above. I wouldn't do it, and I wouldn't be friends with those that did. But this is not real life, it's a game. Here's an example. If I joined a corp and was provided access to their teamspeak and forums. I then would use and have no problem using information on those forums relating to eve for personal/corp/alliance gain in eve. HOWEVER if I found personal information on forums/teamspeak that was clearly only there because the people using those forums were chatting with friends in what they considered a semi-private forum, I wouldn't use it. That would be my moral line regarding in game/out of game use. Another line I'd draw is the difference between getting a spy onto teamspeak (through one of the methods I agree with above, not hacking/password sniffing or any other means) and taking teamspeak offline through a DoS. The former I have no problem with, the latter I'd object to. I often object to people posting private chat logs (eve related that is) on the eve-o forums, yet that is more of a moral issue than anything else. It's certainly not anything I'd want a player to be banned over, unlike DoS attacks on forums/teamspeak/other players or hacking forums/teamspeak/other players pc's all of which I'd hope the players involved would be banned for. Actions that are morally questionable in real-life are often perfectly acceptable in a fictional game environment such as EVE. There are grey areas or borderline cases but on the whole even those I find acceptable so long as they're not taken too far. When things esculate to using illegal methods to obtain the same advantage, that is when people should really take stock of what they're doing and the reasons they're doing it. Is a game really so important that you'd resort to such acts? Very good post on the subject.
Arrgs Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:43:00 - [123] The line is drawn in a diffrent place for everyone. Some people have no problems with abusing RL friendships or gaining the trust of others through months and months then stabbing them in the back. It boils down the the morals of the person and how far they are willing to go to achieve their goal(s). If someone does something illegal such as hacking a forum, then while it is illegal, they may not see it as wrong. My first video!
Dominie Dirtch Minmatar Revival.	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:43:00 - [124] Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Xendie what i think is worse then spying and infiltrating corps/alliances or even being given a sql dump from the enemies web admins is the fact that rules on these forums are effectively being changed to fit what one party ingame wants it be when they are the subject of the spying and infiltrating. now that is lame of CCP to allow. The rules were changed BECAUSE of us, xendie, not FOR us. We OBJECTED to to the stupid "no intel posts / internal forums" rule, it is pathetic, but it's there - now you're screaming that, AFTER it's changed, it's OUR fault? Get a grip. you are the ones that have used OOG forum info on these forums in the past and then it was very much ok. when you are the recipient of it you whine and whine to your moderators so the rules gets changed. you did it on the sig images and you did it on this. get a grip yourself. We are the ones that have used information that we were GIVEN, xendie, stop letting your bitterness get in the way of your judgement. ANY corp we have infiltrated use of the forums AND ts has been MANDATORY. You say get a grip yet it's you who point blank refuses to engage the notion that, actually, we're not cheats, nor do we have anyone high up in CCP, you simply cannot get it round your nouse that we're BETTER than you. Prior to the sig rules "change" THERE WAS NO RULE u muppet. People had been making sigs of a similar nature to ours for YEARS prior to us doing the ascn set - you think we wanted them banned and then whined to have them put back? ROFL. Sit down, step back, get over it. i dont trust your word further then my nose protrudes out from my face. you were given the info, yeah right. kugutsumen were GIVEN a sql dump from your forums. you were allowed to post screenies and inside information you had gotten(god knows how) from other alliances forums and webservers. when kugutsumen posted about bob you whined and cried and screamed hax/sploits and so on to the moderators so they ban him from the forums. why should we believe you who has in the past stolen/been given info from other people forums/web servers and posted it on these forums and not him? you look at it as impossible that someone in your midst would do something like giving all the info out to someone but it happens to everyone at some point. as you propably know very well yourself. you need to plug the intel hole and i would start with your server admins who gave away the sql dump and not cry so damn much about it. get a grip. as for the sig rules yes there have been moderation rules of sigs before and you know it since you have been petitioning every single on of my sigs for any remote chance of giving me a warning. get a life Diana. and personal attacks such as calling me a muppet will be reported as soon as [email protected] works again. They cannot take what they give out Xendie, there is no point in arguing with them at all. I recently joined a corp and was told all about bob and their ways, they make me laugh with their bitterness and egomania and angry with their self righteous indignation. Dom _________ My voice shall tear you asunder and show your vile ways.
Cowan	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:44:00 - [125] Well there I have always found this an interesting debate on this topic. Whilst many have stated that getting given the password to someone's Vent/TS or forums is ok because it is not breaking the law. Well in some parts of the world this is not so the case. Where I live we have social engineering laws. Basically it is illegal to access any information using false information. With the penalties for this being exactly the same as if you hacked access to this information. Now I doubt many would be so inclined as to approach the police for such an ingame abuse however might pay twice to think about it before doing such acts. My company runs a webhosting business and at present I run a Teamspeak server for an alliance and also several corporations. This also brings another interesting turn. Anyone using those Teamspeaks for anything other then intended purposes could be liable for a lawsuit for excessive bandwidth usage. (The same as someone is liable for a DoS attack.) So all up the legal ramifications are quite interesting. But back on topic. I personally have been given access to opponents TS, Forums and the like. Now I never used any of this for anything in the end because personally I think knowing what your enemy is upto takes out a huge amount of fun out of the game. I would personally prefer the unexpected to happen. Mods please note that this is currently my main that is in the process of changing corps. Cheers
Dr Einkeisel Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:45:00 - [126] Edited by: Dr Einkeisel on 02/01/2007 23:44:50 Dominie Dirtch Right so you have no first hand experience of us ? yet you come here and blow your trumpet.
Evil Thug Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:46:00 - [127] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse you are even worse than any bob spy Tell me, why so, Woody ? Insulting real life people, with arrogant posts on forums, during wartime to bring their morale down is ok ? Or may be singing songs on their teamspeak ? I`m not bitter about bob. They are doing great job to eve community just by fact, that they are existing - evil empire etc. But, they started playing these games first, calling it 'social engineering'. They just forget about fact, that for someone its perfectly ok to call h4x - social engineering. In the end - result stays the same - you are aquiring intel.
Dominie Dirtch Minmatar Revival.	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:47:00 - [128] Edited by: Dominie Dirtch on 02/01/2007 23:48:10 Originally by: Dr Einkeisel Edited by: Dr Einkeisel on 02/01/2007 23:44:50 Dominie Dirtch Right so you have no first hand experience of us ? yet you come here and blow your trumpet. I have not had first hand experience of you no, i have however played the game for just over one year now with a different character (which i recently traded and start this new one for) I have seen post on the forums, i have seen bob generally annoy others and bait them into flame wars then not see the person they bait on the forum for the next week or two. I see bob cry wolf at things they them selfs have done. This incident is no different, bob post internal ASCN information yet when it is done to them they cry to the mods until it is removed. -added- I expect to have first-hand knowledge very soon. _________ My voice shall tear you asunder and show your vile ways.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:49:00 - [129] Edited by: Dianabolic on 02/01/2007 23:51:27 Edited by: Dianabolic on 02/01/2007 23:50:40 Edited by: Dianabolic on 02/01/2007 23:49:32 Originally by: Xendie and personal attacks such as calling me a muppet will be reported as soon as [email protected] works again. Stop being a muppet, either that or wipe your mouth after you swallow! I'll answer your petition as soon as it comes in, Malken Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Dr Einkeisel Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:50:00 - [130] Originally by: Cowan Well there I have always found this an interesting debate on this topic. Whilst many have stated that getting given the password to someone's Vent/TS or forums is ok because it is not breaking the law. Well in some parts of the world this is not so the case. Where I live we have social engineering laws. Basically it is illegal to access any information using false information. With the penalties for this being exactly the same as if you hacked access to this information. Now I doubt many would be so inclined as to approach the police for such an ingame abuse however might pay twice to think about it before doing such acts. My company runs a webhosting business and at present I run a Teamspeak server for an alliance and also several corporations. This also brings another interesting turn. Anyone using those Teamspeaks for anything other then intended purposes could be liable for a lawsuit for excessive bandwidth usage. (The same as someone is liable for a DoS attack.) So all up the legal ramifications are quite interesting. But back on topic. I personally have been given access to opponents TS, Forums and the like. Now I never used any of this for anything in the end because personally I think knowing what your enemy is upto takes out a huge amount of fun out of the game. I would personally prefer the unexpected to happen. Mods please note that this is currently my main that is in the process of changing corps. Cheers How can you say its social engineering, without been able to prove there was intent in the first place to spy etc. Its not like you have one face like RL, infact you have the possibilty of three different personias <- sp, each one roleplaying a different kind of person, maybe in different corps or alliance. What you do with each one is your own choice, and each one a different "person" heck I could have 3 Chars in three different alliances and be a model member in each.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:50:00 - [131] Originally by: Dr Einkeisel Edited by: Dr Einkeisel on 02/01/2007 23:42:12 Originally by: Ramblin Man Originally by: Julia Lycera If you are given access to an opposing sides forum or Vent-TS2 server via deceit or espionage then you have done nothing wrong, legally or morally. Just as a note, you stressing given is a straw man. You're being "given" access under false pretenses. Imo, that's more akin to stealing. I dont understand how its under false pretenses, when I am on my BoB char I play the char in bob. When Iam on my ASCN Char Iam playing on a char in ASCN. If I partake in corp ops help with the alliance then I am just the an average member. What I choose to do with my ASCN char be that pass on imformation etc, has nothing to do with my alter ego. What Iam trying to say is - When I play as my BoB char, I am in bob roleplaying a pilot in a ship in bob. When I play as my ASCN Char, Iam roleplaying a pilot in ASCN What I choose to do with any the imformation I required from either alliance is my own business. If I have been passed imformation to log onto the forums and onto TS while roleplaying that character, then that is totaly correct since; am I not a member of ASCN? is that not the persona I am roleplaying? And the same goes if I was to pass imformation about BOB onto ASCN ? Im finding it hard to explain what I mean here hopefully somone will save me from my own confusion oh and I know this is about bob and ASCN, I was just using that as an example since its very recent I think this was very confusing to read. Just one quesiont if asked by ascn if you had any alts or characters in other alliances, did you tell them yes. If not then you lied to get access. That means you hacked their private forums and TS. And in the end not much different from the guy who tried to use brute force to do it. Your was is just a lot more sublte (and probably much more efficient) but is hacking none the less.
Dominie Dirtch Minmatar Revival.	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:51:00 - [132] Originally by: Dianabolic Edited by: Dianabolic on 02/01/2007 23:49:32 Originally by: Xendie and personal attacks such as calling me a muppet will be reported as soon as [email protected] works again. I'll answer your petition as soon as it comes in, Malken Arrogance becomes you Dianabolic. It most certainly does. Quote: # # Impersonating another forum user, moderator, volunteer, administrator, CCP or Siminn employee is strictly prohibited. You are very norty. _________ My voice shall tear you asunder and show your vile ways.
Weco	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:53:00 - [133] Its called War, you try to destroy something someone put RL time and money into (subscription) and they will come after you in RL aswell. Only natural. ____________________________________________ My sig?
Menth Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:58:00 - [134] Originally by: Dianabolic Edited by: Dianabolic on 02/01/2007 23:56:00 Originally by: Xendie and personal attacks such as calling me a muppet will be reported as soon as [email protected] works again. Wipe your mouth before you speak I'll answer your petition as soon as it comes in, Malken I'd edit it just to say that I'm not a mod, but I cba, believe me if you like, I care not. Looks like he just made someones day.
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:59:00 - [135] Originally by: Evil Thug Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse you are even worse than any bob spy Tell me, why so, Woody ? Cause applauding people ppl who are even using illegal by law acts to gain that intel is more than double standards to me. I think most ppl here misunderstood me or maybe thats cause of my poor english. Im not against spying, it IS part of the game. But discriminating and ridiculing RL humans is not. Its a thin red line. And i fear too many ppl out there are just unable to stop before crossing it. --------------------------------
thoradh AirHawk Alliance Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:59:00 - [136] Ah yes, the chickens come home to roost, and they're not all home yet methinks... > > Noli illegitimi carborundum! >
Flapp Dog Tags	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:00:00 - [137] In response to the original posting: Check my Bio, i like being a spy. I do use a lot of resources most people don't think about, like that i could tell you if that farmers account spotting all those fancy characters is right or left handed in real life. No kidding. The line i will never cross is about corp. integrity. I will never ever infiltrate a corp. or alliance by joining it. There are already so many scams, thefts and betrayals - too many for my taste, and besides all that... the important pieces of information can be gathered from outside just as easily. See you southwards, i believe there is some work waiting for me down there.
Xendie Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:00:00 - [138] Originally by: Dianabolic Edited by: Dianabolic on 02/01/2007 23:56:00 Wipe your mouth before you speak I'll answer your petition as soon as it comes in, Malken I'd edit it just to say that I'm not a mod, but I cba, believe me if you like, I care not. that kinda shows why you fail at eve as well at life because you think eve=rl, pathetic diana. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Metal Dude Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:00:00 - [139] Originally by: Weco Its called War, you try to destroy something someone put RL time and money into (subscription) and they will come after you in RL aswell. Only natural. I don't think we want to be playing this RL, all gloves are off attitude about a game, do we? Otherwise, this could get ugly. The truth will set you free
Dominie Dirtch Minmatar Revival.	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:01:00 - [140] Originally by: Metal Dude Originally by: Weco Its called War, you try to destroy something someone put RL time and money into (subscription) and they will come after you in RL aswell. Only natural. I don't think we want to be playing this RL, all gloves are off attitude about a game, do we? Otherwise, this could get ugly. Well BoB supposedly contacted this persons real life Boss... i think its already gotten ugly and will get uglier if that was the case. _________ My voice shall tear you asunder and show your vile ways.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:02:00 - [141] Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Dianabolic Edited by: Dianabolic on 02/01/2007 23:56:00 Wipe your mouth before you speak I'll answer your petition as soon as it comes in, Malken I'd edit it just to say that I'm not a mod, but I cba, believe me if you like, I care not. that kinda shows why you fail at eve as well at life because you think eve=rl, pathetic diana. Are you sure you're not confusing me with the picture in the mirror, malken dear fellow? I think eve=rl? I do? Wait, I must go and extort someone out of their house (I'm a landlord!) and rip their implants right out of their still living head, all whilst I beat them round their grotty legs with their own grotty legs of some corps I collected. Yes, I am obviously having seperation issues. Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
thoradh AirHawk Alliance Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:05:00 - [142] Originally by: Dominie Dirtch Originally by: Metal Dude Originally by: Weco Its called War, you try to destroy something someone put RL time and money into (subscription) and they will come after you in RL aswell. Only natural. I don't think we want to be playing this RL, all gloves are off attitude about a game, do we? Otherwise, this could get ugly. Well BoB supposedly contacted this persons real life Boss... i think its already gotten ugly and will get uglier if that was the case. Indeed, and I'll wager when it does get much much uglier Eve will not have benefited at all, you reap what you sow. > > Noli illegitimi carborundum! >
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:08:00 - [143] Originally by: Cowan Where I live we have social engineering laws. Basically it is illegal to access any information using false information. With the penalties for this being exactly the same as if you hacked access to this information. Now I doubt many would be so inclined as to approach the police for such an ingame abuse however might pay twice to think about it before doing such acts. Its actaully illegal in most countries. In the US however they only prosecute (ie make it a crime if you cause a certain amount of damage, so they can limit prosecutions). US STATE laws US Federal Law The fact still remains though. Nobody is ever going to be prosecuted for this. But they wont be prosecuted in the US for a brut force hack either, unless they cause damage. So i still dont see how people are drawing the line there, they are both illegal, but unenforced for this type of thing.
searchi tiberian suns	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:15:00 - [144] Edited by: searchi on 03/01/2007 00:29:25 infiltrating involves lieing to rl people which invest rl money and rl time into this game. would be impersonating in rl be illegal? yes bob tries to spread the disease because they wouldnt be half as succesful without it. give the corps means to identify people. then spieing is legitimate. til then its just dirt. bob forum brigade is out in force because they feel strong about it. bob feels more or less safe because their invite only recruitment which they can afford because people gravitate to them to have eve in easy mode. 1 person worming up its way in a corp since years by lieing all the way can do more harm than a whole fleet. what do ou think happens to our morale,when pos just go offline or the enem knows ever time whos fleetleader. whats the difference between corp-theft and treason/spieing? none at all both involve lieing to rl persons abusing trust. in rl such things can get you killed and rightly so but in eve you can hide because nobody can find out who you are. fight unhonest, fight the darkness arjun
Evil Thug Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:19:00 - [145] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Originally by: Evil Thug Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse you are even worse than any bob spy Tell me, why so, Woody ? Cause applauding people ppl who are even using illegal by law acts to gain that intel is more than double standards to me. For you - it is. For them - its not. For someone - insulting people to gain advantage in-game - is ok, for me - its not. There is no 'ultimate truth' in real life. In eve - it is, and this thing is called EULA. No point in EULA regarding hacking to gain access to forum information - its ok, and its allowed.
Angry Dan Caldari Momentum. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:19:00 - [146] Originally by: j0sephine This brings interesting point.... how much of actual TS spying is going out there, and how much of it is just baseless accusations and responsibility dodging in the form of "well they must've had a TS spy otherwise we would've won. After all everyone know those cheaters and hackers never play fair and do nothing but exploit, or they'd never beat us"... o.( The day Orc A had a spy suicide a FiX fleet onto a SA pos was the day I decided to leave Huzzah. One of Huzzah's founding tenets was to be above that sort of low life trick. [right]++++++++++++++++++++ Founder member of the Huzzah Federation. Remember, the grass is greener on our side of the fence Originally by: Butter Dog Good Sportsmanship > Winning. [/quote
Xendie Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:21:00 - [147] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Dianabolic Edited by: Dianabolic on 02/01/2007 23:56:00 Wipe your mouth before you speak I'll answer your petition as soon as it comes in, Malken I'd edit it just to say that I'm not a mod, but I cba, believe me if you like, I care not. that kinda shows why you fail at eve as well at life because you think eve=rl, pathetic diana. Are you sure you're not confusing me with the picture in the mirror, malken dear fellow? I think eve=rl? I do? Wait, I must go and extort someone out of their house (I'm a landlord!) and rip their implants right out of their still living head, all whilst I beat them round their grotty legs with their own grotty legs of some corps I collected. Yes, I am obviously having seperation issues. apparently you do as you think the guy did a RL crime but you want him to be punished ingame and on the forums when if it actually was a RL crime behind it wich i doubt then the police would handle it. you whined and cried to get the rules changed when it wasnt suiting you and your corp/alliance anymore. goodnight and have a nice day, ill come back tomorrow and see your repeated ramblings and giggle at them. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
El Covah Die Diener Melkors	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:21:00 - [148] Originally by: Evil Thug No point in EULA regarding hacking to gain access to forum information - its ok, and its allowed. It is a criminal act forbidden by RL law in most countries. There is still something above the EULA.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:24:00 - [149] Edited by: Dianabolic on 03/01/2007 00:25:06 Originally by: Xendie apparently you do as you think the guy did a RL crime but you want him to be punished ingame and on the forums when if it actually was a RL crime behind it wich i doubt then the police would handle it. Where have I asked for him to be punished in-game? Nowhere, dear Malken, in fact I think the general concensus is that we're not going to involve the police, what would be the point? If we see him in-game, sure as hell we'll kill him... like we do most people. Show me logs of me asking for this guy to be prosecuted, dear chap, and you shall have your point - until then you're just sitting jerking your chain in the corner and giggling cuz uv found a new toy. Originally by: Xendie you whined and cried to get the rules changed when it wasnt suiting you and your corp/alliance anymore. Again, incorrect - we have never ever asked for chat logs and "other website" material to be kept off the forums - don't you get it, spittle_loving_muppet of olde, we LOVE the drama. Why would we ask for something that removes from that? Or are you still stuck in your (already proven to be false) "sig" saga timeline? Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Wilfan Ret'nub Singularity.	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:37:00 - [150] The cause for this dilemma is simple. The solution - impossible. There are two worlds with different rules: EVE and RL ("real life", as overloaded as this word is...). In EVE, some actions are allowed and some are forbidden by EULA / TOS and bannable. Some are possible, then become bannable, then get fixed and can't be done anymore. In RL, some actions are allowed and some are illegal and punishable. Does a (third-party, e.g. corporation's) forum belong into EVE or RL sphere? If it's in EVE sphere, then we'd need CCP to tell us whether hacking is an exploit or not. Community consensus won't do it - it failed for logging off in bubbles. But even if CCP declares it's an exploit, how will they enforce that? It's impossible to link a competent hacker to the EVE account. He might even not have one. If it belongs in the RL sphere, then there's no use to froth about it on the forums. It's up to law enforcement agencies to sort it out. Maybe a call to police would be in order, or some lobbying to tighten the legislation ... I'm sure it will work, especially when the perpetrator sits on the other side of the globe and police can't stop laughing while you describe the serius business of the internets. You better hope they don't take you seriously, or RL will start trampling on the "high art of EVE espionage" with myriad of lax computer intrusion, anti-pretexting and privacy laws. It would all be much simpler if all EVE resources would be in the EVE client, under CCP control. But it would also make the game experience less flexible and honestly, much crappier. ------ No ISK, no fun
Die Ene Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:40:00 - [151] Edited by: Die Ene on 03/01/2007 00:40:23 You know this is a game, its not reality, therefore I like to role play being evil or whatever type of character I wish to portray. Its fictitious, not-real, so why would I want to bring my REAL LIFE morales into a game that lets me have fun exploring something I am not and never will be in reality. You want me to give up the fun I have in this game cos you think the way I play is immoral, I say to you "get lost" (Or Worse words to the same effect) I pay for this game and will play it how I like TYVM.
Metal Dude Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:40:00 - [152] Originally by: Evil Thug Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Originally by: Evil Thug Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse you are even worse than any bob spy Tell me, why so, Woody ? Cause applauding people ppl who are even using illegal by law acts to gain that intel is more than double standards to me. For you - it is. For them - its not. For someone - insulting people to gain advantage in-game - is ok, for me - its not. There is no 'ultimate truth' in real life. In eve - it is, and this thing is called EULA. No point in EULA regarding hacking to gain access to forum information - its ok, and its allowed. We learned everything we know about 'social engineering' during our war with RA(T) while still in [5], so please, when you say 'they' you really mean 'we', don't you ET. And if CCP does not care about illegal hacking of someone forums, look out, because this will get a lot uglier. It will be open season on websites, so admins better get their security right. The truth will set you free
Evil Thug Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:41:00 - [153] Originally by: Metal Dude We learned everything we know about 'social engineering' during our war with RA(T) while still in [5], so please, when you say 'they' you really mean 'we', don't you ET. "Proof or stfu" (c)
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:45:00 - [154] Originally by: Metal Dude And if CCP does not care about illegal hacking of someone forums, look out, because this will get a lot uglier. It will be open season on websites, so admins better get their security right. So does this mean you guys are going to stop lying to people to get alts in corps so you can get TS and Forum access, because that is just as illegal as a brute force hack in almost every country.
Die Ene Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:51:00 - [155] Originally by: Christopher Multsanti I have come to the conclusion that these problems all stem from one person. Sir Molle. Now if we could just get him banned, everything would be great in the world of Eve. /me wonders to himself if this possible, I'll work on it and get back to you. Why on earth would you want him banned for ? I didn't think you were this shallow Christopher
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:53:00 - [156] Originally by: Serapis Aote Originally by: Metal Dude And if CCP does not care about illegal hacking of someone forums, look out, because this will get a lot uglier. It will be open season on websites, so admins better get their security right. So does this mean you guys are going to stop lying to people to get alts in corps so you can get TS and Forum access, because that is just as illegal as a brute force hack in almost every country. Dear hobby lawyer, it is not illegal to lie in an online roleplaying game where the sole purpose is to play a virtual avatar as good as possible. I know youre all american and quote some fancy laws but u actually understand that playing a roleplaying game requires you to slip into another personality ? Its not "look im myself in a spaceship". You are either caldari, amarr or gallente not american or german. Unless ppl learn to draw the line in this most basic thing u know who should stop playing the game because they dont understand the concept of it, as it is mostly the first group bringing in rl crimes and some rl law yada yada while those who understand what roleplaying means usually stay within the rules. p.s. if you dont believe me check your american laws for murder, thievery, ransomning and other day to day business in eve. Im sure ull be able to make a long list of stuff u want to sue various ppl on....
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:53:00 - [157] Edited by: NATMav on 03/01/2007 00:53:34 It doesn't matter where you or I think it should end, the fact of the matter is that it will never end until players stop allowing themselves to be diluted by it and take a stand by leaving corps/alliances that like to stretch the boundaries of fair play and game mechanics. The game is rapidly declining into a contest of who can screw over the next guy the most, rather than who is the better player/corp/alliance. Corp thefts are rampant, TS and forum exploits are on the rise, ships are logging in/out all over the damn place. So it all comes down to how far do YOU, as an individual pilot, want the game to spiral downward in order for you to "win". Originally by: Goberth Ludwig Damn what happens to all those people whose self esteem doesnt depend on eve then? Oh right, I'm asking in the wrong place
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:57:00 - [158] Edited by: Serapis Aote on 03/01/2007 00:59:25 Edited by: Serapis Aote on 03/01/2007 00:58:47 Originally by: Kcel Chim Originally by: Serapis Aote Originally by: Metal Dude And if CCP does not care about illegal hacking of someone forums, look out, because this will get a lot uglier. It will be open season on websites, so admins better get their security right. So does this mean you guys are going to stop lying to people to get alts in corps so you can get TS and Forum access, because that is just as illegal as a brute force hack in almost every country. Dear hobby lawyer, it is not illegal to lie in an online roleplaying game where the sole purpose is to play a virtual avatar as good as possible. I know youre all american and quote some fancy laws but u actually understand that playing a roleplaying game requires you to slip into another personality ? Its not "look im myself in a spaceship". You are either caldari, amarr or gallente not american or german. Unless ppl learn to draw the line in this most basic thing u know who should stop playing the game because they dont understand the concept of it, as it is mostly the first group bringing in rl crimes and some rl law yada yada while those who understand what roleplaying means usually stay within the rules. p.s. if you dont believe me check your american laws for murder, thievery, ransomning and other day to day business in eve. Im sure ull be able to make a long list of stuff u want to sue various ppl on.... It is illegal in the US to brute force hack a computer system. It is illegal to access a computer system in the US with out consent, its called "unauthorized access" You can not gain consent by lying. Why ignore half the law, when it comes to hacking. Its the same thing in the eyes of the law. Both are illegal. You just dont want to accept it. Your above idiotic argument works just as well for people that want to brute force hack an out of game forum as it does for lying to gain access.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.01.03 01:00:00 - [159] Originally by: NATMav Edited by: NATMav on 03/01/2007 00:53:34 It doesn't matter where you or I think it should end, the fact of the matter is that it will never end until players stop allowing themselves to be diluted by it and take a stand by leaving corps/alliances that like to stretch the boundaries of fair play and game mechanics. The game is rapidly declining into a contest of who can screw over the next guy the most, rather than who is the better player/corp/alliance. Corp thefts are rampant, TS and forum exploits are on the rise, ships are logging in/out all over the damn place. So it all comes down to how far do YOU, as an individual pilot, want the game to spiral downward in order for you to "win". i partly agree with you, however let us not forget (as recently shown with the ASCN conflict) there is only so much "info" from the rumormills you can trust to be true. As i pointed out in another thread it became a trend to defame your enemy not just as "a loser" or "an exploiter" but also his rl and not even ccp are save from baseless accusations and lies hurled out to cover up own mistakes these days. So would you leave your corp if someone told you they think ur side has a ts spy ? As ET put it, some might leave but the majority will always stay because it the eyes of most it only sucks if youre on the receiving end. As shown by the way how ASCN whined about any kind of spying while beeing big in this shady business themself not even a few months earlier in the EC operation. The conclusion is that eve will never form gentleman agreements because ppl are too bitter and everyone applies doublestandards. I wish it was different but thats my view on things atleast.
Christopher Multsanti Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2007.01.03 01:00:00 - [160] Originally by: Die Ene Originally by: Christopher Multsanti I have come to the conclusion that these problems all stem from one person. Sir Molle. Now if we could just get him banned, everything would be great in the world of Eve. /me wonders to himself if this possible, I'll work on it and get back to you. Why on earth would you want him banned for ? I didn't think you were this shallow Christopher Sarcasim is the lowest form of humour, for that I apologise. It's great being Amarr that flys Minmintar aint it? EVIL SYNNs > Bob are the best, we have to pay them to use the plexs...
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.01.03 01:06:00 - [161] Originally by: Serapis Aote It is illegal in the US to brute force hack a computer system. It is illegal to access a computer system in the US with out consent, its called "unauthorized access" You can not gain consent by lying. Why ignore half the law, when it comes to hacking. Its the same thing in the eyes of the law. Both are illegal. You just dont want to accept it. Your above idiotic argument works just as well for people that want to brute force hack an out of game forum as it does for lying to gain access. No my dear friend once again it doesnt. In one case the avatar "kcel chim" is lying to the avatar "xy" to get access. With this access i also get access to the forums of said virtual cooperation. The access is not granted to "insert my rl name here" but to "kcel chim". When you use your php exploits to hack the website of "enter rl name of domain admin here" you are acting as "enter rl name here" hacking (and breaking rl laws in the process). Quiet simple. RL laws dont cover virtual worlds as hard as it may be for you to understand. Hacking however is a completely rl based activity as it doesnt involve any game related content whatsoever. Even someone without an eve account could do it.
Weco	Posted - 2007.01.03 01:09:00 - [162] Originally by: Metal Dude Originally by: Weco Its called War, you try to destroy something someone put RL time and money into (subscription) and they will come after you in RL aswell. Only natural. I don't think we want to be playing this RL, all gloves are off attitude about a game, do we? Otherwise, this could get ugly. Yes I agree, it can get ugly if this game is played RL. But thing is, you cant draw a line between EVE and RL since progress in EVE takes dedication in RL, so its conected in a way. If im a victim in a corp theft and I know who did it RL, I wouldnt hesitate to settle the score. If I would get scammed in EVE, I would still be ****ed at this person if I met him/her in RL. If someone took away what I built for more then a year ingame, yes a forum hack is well within what I believe some people are capable of doing. Not saying its a good thing, just saying you gotto be prepared for these kinda things when playing a game like EVE. Just look at RL sports, people fight with baseballbats e.t.c. because someone missed kicking a leather sphere into a 4 corner pipe construction. Its the same thing as hacking a internet forum (but in a less serious way ofc). ____________________________________________ My sig?
Christopher Multsanti Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2007.01.03 01:10:00 - [163] People will always push the boundries of what is acceptable, BOB have always done this, they should not be surprised when someone takes it too far te get intel from their forums. That does not it right ofcourse. As far as actions go, hacking i don't feel is acceptable, but neither is posting internal forums on the EVE O forums and saying that is part of a campaign of war. Sure if you have access tot hese things, good for you, but it should never be made public, ever. It's great being Amarr that flys Minmintar aint it? EVIL SYNNs > Bob are the best, we have to pay them to use the plexs...
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.03 01:11:00 - [164] "Its actaully illegal in most countries. (..) US Federal Law" uhmm the article you quote is specifically limited to unauthorized computer access to obtain informations regarding U.S. national defense, foreign affairs, financial institution or government of United States. Furthermore the crime in question is "to access a computer with authorization and to use such access to obtain or alter information in the computer that the accesser is not entitled so to obtain or alter" In other words, this has about zero relevance to situation where someone is authorized to access web forum or voice communication server dealing with information about computer game, and retrieves through it information they were (rightly or wrongly) authorized to access. (as opposed to say logging in as basic corp member and then hacking your way to obtain access to directors' forum section) I dunno, perhaps you wanted to link to something else that actually deals with social engineering to access privately hosted forums and voice communication related to computer game? ^^;;
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.01.03 01:14:00 - [165] Originally by: Christopher Multsanti As far as actions go, hacking i don't feel is acceptable, but neither is posting internal forums on the EVE O forums and saying that is part of a campaign of war. Sure if you have access tot hese things, good for you, but it should never be made public, ever. I oddly enough agree with you on this one, however i guess the amount of outright lying and accusations did it in this case which made bob break the golden rule. Noone likes to be called those kind of stuff (especially if its not aimed at the avatars but mostly at the ppl behind the computer) infront of 5k ppl without reacting to it. The smear campaign cyvok started backfired bigtime on him and i hope the next wars to follow will take a step back. However with the latest alt infection and hacking going around (which didnt only happen to bob forums by the same php exploits and from the same guy) it doesnt seem likely.

Ulynidd Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.01.03 01:15:00 - [166] I thought I made myself clear in the last thread, we do not welcome these kind of discussions on the forum. Open another thread and we start dishing out warnings / bans. _____________________________ Ulynidd Lead Forum Moderator [ Forum Rules ]

Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2007.01.03 01:17:00 - [167] Originally by: Kcel Chim Originally by: Serapis Aote It is illegal in the US to brute force hack a computer system. It is illegal to access a computer system in the US with out consent, its called "unauthorized access" You can not gain consent by lying. Why ignore half the law, when it comes to hacking. Its the same thing in the eyes of the law. Both are illegal. You just dont want to accept it. Your above idiotic argument works just as well for people that want to brute force hack an out of game forum as it does for lying to gain access. No my dear friend once again it doesnt. In one case the avatar "kcel chim" is lying to the avatar "xy" to get access. With this access i also get access to the forums of said virtual cooperation. The access is not granted to "insert my rl name here" but to "kcel chim". When you use your php exploits to hack the website of "enter rl name of domain admin here" you are acting as "enter rl name here" hacking (and breaking rl laws in the process). Quiet simple. RL laws dont cover virtual worlds as hard as it may be for you to understand. Hacking however is a completely rl based activity as it doesnt involve any game related content whatsoever. Even someone without an eve account could do it. We are just going to have to disagree then. No point arguing about. I am not going to change your mind, and you are not going to change mine. When you enter my corp, you enter as you not your character. We have been gaming together for years, and most of us know eachother in real life. Most of our forum has little to do with eve. So if we ask you who you are, if you have any other chars in eve and stuff like that we view it as asking the person behind the keyboard who they are. We play games with other people we like to play with, not other people's avatars. Our avatars have changed so many times over the years, all that is left is the people behind the keyboard. So we are just going to have to disagree. In my opinion when you go to someone elses private out of game webiste and lie to gain access, its wrong in the same way it is wrong to force your way in through brute force. I can say I see where you are coming from some bit, i just totally disagree with your opinion, and as it looks you disagree with mine. How bout we just leave it at that. Nice friendly argument on the interweb about something that is never going to be resolved. I am sure i can live with that, and live with knowing some people play games differently then I do.
Arenis Xemdal Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.03 01:37:00 - [168] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Hacking into a forum doesn't really make my list. I've seen it done by various types of people. One kind has the desire to cause real life damage, and the other just to gather information to be used in game. I've known people who would use said information to log onto accounts, and I've known others who would deliberately ignore information that would get them into other player's accounts, and even their paypal accounts. "Hacking" might be illegal, but based on the number of virus's and spyware programs I clean off of my relatives computers every few months it seems that gathering information about a fictional eve corporation would be very low on the priority list when most hacking is directly involved with acquiring passwords and account numbers for REAL LIFE money accounts. Theres a big difference between hacking into something, and hacking something apart. Shamis What a profoundly idiotic post. Twice now I've seen you defend the culprit; why is that Shamis? It wouldn't be the irrevocable connection he has with you ingame - would it? Lets make something absolutely, perfectly clear. Imposing morals upon others is not the definition of any line crossed. There are only two documents, or agreements if you will, that can be broken. One of those is the EULA. In accordance with the EULA, it is perfectly acceptable (and even encouraged) to have multiple characters/accounts. Where you place those characters in EVE matters not; what damages you inflict and information you steal matters not. Accessing someone's account, whether willingly and unknowingly would border the thin red line which we seem to be searching for tonight. It may lead to a banning from Eve Online under the discresion of GMs authorities. The second, and far more relevant agreements you could break is real and existing anti-hacking laws. Hacking websites to steal passwords and information, then tampering and defacing said website is a real crime - unless done with consent (as say.. part of a security consultation). The severity of the crime, or lackthereof, does not change this. If you condone the breaking of any real life laws to gain an arbitrary one-up in an MMORPG game you are an idiot. So idiotic is this stature on gaming that given the number of people who will preen themselves on watching it happen to us means its safe to herald the following; BoB has officially won EVE. So good are we, that two entire camps of degenerates and cretins have formed in protest of our virtual supremacy. On one hand we have the victim crowd, crying over our blatant refusal to accept their concept of morals, all the while preaching from a position of utter hypocrisy. Then we have the the more recent, and much deeply disturbed crowed of hackers and their respective forum cheerleaders. So disturbing is the fallacy of their logic, that I, the perpetrator of the UQS "heist" can only shake my head in complete and utter bewilderment. Congratulations, you will never live this down.

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