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Heintron Caldari Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille Tre Kroner	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:41:00 - [91] Originally by: j0sephine "However. Using methods such as Teamspeak & (outgame) forum "infiltration" (ur not really spies, dont humor urselves) is not that different for buying isk with cash. Ur going out of game to gain an advantage in it. & taking it out of game isnt kewl." There's a catch to this reasoning -- if we classify things like game-oriented TS channel and game-oriented forum as "out of game", then the people who run these are using "out of game" means to gain in-game advantage themselves, which in turn is quite against the game EULA. You can't have your cookie and eat it -- either this is out of game medium and as such should be not existing/utilized in the first place, or it is part of the game and as such fair play to game-based infiltration etc. Besides there's then also issue of soon-to-come in-game voice communication. Will it be "fair game" to compromise with game character because it's part of the game client, even though it performs the same function 3rd party based voice communication does? Or will it be off limits because of 3rd party applications allowing the same... but in this particular case the "it's not part of game" argument when it's part of game client is seriously going to look even more silly it does now... I believe you could defend hacking someones forum with that little speach.
KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:42:00 - [92] No morale limits at all. War is war. KIA EVE Home
Stockarian Minmatar eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:43:00 - [93] We can speak of these tactics until both sides are blue in the face. The entities that use the most backhanded tactics will always say "it's in the game". There should be a line you don't cross when it comes to common courtesy for the other players, but there's not, and most likely won't ever be. Joining someone's corp for the sole reason of infiltrating their private forums and/or TS, (look closely), IN MY OPINION, is wrong. I don't think morals come into play at all. The question is: Is it right or wrong? Would you stab someone you've known as a friend in the back and consider that right? I wouldn't. Sadly this happens all too frequently in eve these days. BTW, the hacking thing---Very bad. Man should have his nuts cut off. To save time, why don't you avoid the facts and get right to the spin.
Julia Lycera	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:43:00 - [94] Just from my humble opinion. If you are given access to an opposing sides forum or Vent-TS2 server via deceit or espionage then you have done nothing wrong, legally or morally. Lets say your corp or alliance is at war with Roshambo, they have proven impossible to beat yet one of your corp members managed to slip and alt into their corp. He/she is given TS and Forum access and during his/her stay is cordial and friendly. What is wrong with passing infomation gatherd via alt along to your corp mates ?. Now if you gain access to forums and TS by breaching the site or server illegally then i can see where the line should be drawn. Is this morally wrong to lie and deceive another human to gain access to said forums and TS ?. Yes i believe it is, we all know we shouldn't lie and we all know we shouldn't be deceitful. But reality is humans will do almost anything to gain an upper hand when we have alot to loose, be it in game or real life. So long as it dose not have RL consequences for the owners of the forums and TS server then i'm all for syps and alt syps. If anything i would hope CCP allow more features for espionage and Intell gathering but i don't see how it could be done beyond the current model. P.S i would post with main but CCP seems to like making me wait for weeks to activate my account.
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:43:00 - [95] Originally by: KIAEddZ No morale limits at all. War is war. eddz, i saw the video of your RL meeting. war? ... --------------------------------
Mitch Taylor Caldari Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:44:00 - [96] I never thought we would be spied on. Then one day an enemy told me which character in my corp was his alt. I was intrigued to know which director had recruited him, if the standard proceedures had been followed etc etc. They had, this told me one thing. People will do what they need to do to get an advantage. It appears perfectly legal from a game point of view. I believe forum hacking is morally wrong to answer the ops question. I was quite flattered in the end, seems they couldn't kill us the traditional way :) Dark-Rising
Xendie Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:45:00 - [97] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Xendie what i think is worse then spying and infiltrating corps/alliances or even being given a sql dump from the enemies web admins is the fact that rules on these forums are effectively being changed to fit what one party ingame wants it be when they are the subject of the spying and infiltrating. now that is lame of CCP to allow. The rules were changed BECAUSE of us, xendie, not FOR us. We OBJECTED to to the stupid "no intel posts / internal forums" rule, it is pathetic, but it's there - now you're screaming that, AFTER it's changed, it's OUR fault? Get a grip. you are the ones that have used OOG forum info on these forums in the past and then it was very much ok. when you are the recipient of it you whine and whine to your moderators so the rules gets changed. you did it on the sig images and you did it on this. get a grip yourself. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:51:00 - [98] Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Xendie what i think is worse then spying and infiltrating corps/alliances or even being given a sql dump from the enemies web admins is the fact that rules on these forums are effectively being changed to fit what one party ingame wants it be when they are the subject of the spying and infiltrating. now that is lame of CCP to allow. The rules were changed BECAUSE of us, xendie, not FOR us. We OBJECTED to to the stupid "no intel posts / internal forums" rule, it is pathetic, but it's there - now you're screaming that, AFTER it's changed, it's OUR fault? Get a grip. you are the ones that have used OOG forum info on these forums in the past and then it was very much ok. when you are the recipient of it you whine and whine to your moderators so the rules gets changed. you did it on the sig images and you did it on this. get a grip yourself. Are you so dense or did you not even bother reading the mans post?
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:53:00 - [99] Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Xendie what i think is worse then spying and infiltrating corps/alliances or even being given a sql dump from the enemies web admins is the fact that rules on these forums are effectively being changed to fit what one party ingame wants it be when they are the subject of the spying and infiltrating. now that is lame of CCP to allow. The rules were changed BECAUSE of us, xendie, not FOR us. We OBJECTED to to the stupid "no intel posts / internal forums" rule, it is pathetic, but it's there - now you're screaming that, AFTER it's changed, it's OUR fault? Get a grip. you are the ones that have used OOG forum info on these forums in the past and then it was very much ok. when you are the recipient of it you whine and whine to your moderators so the rules gets changed. you did it on the sig images and you did it on this. get a grip yourself. We are the ones that have used information that we were GIVEN, xendie, stop letting your bitterness get in the way of your judgement. ANY corp we have infiltrated use of the forums AND ts has been MANDATORY. You say get a grip yet it's you who point blank refuses to engage the notion that, actually, we're not cheats, nor do we have anyone high up in CCP, you simply cannot get it round your nouse that we're BETTER than you. Prior to the sig rules "change" THERE WAS NO RULE u muppet. People had been making sigs of a similar nature to ours for YEARS prior to us doing the ascn set - you think we wanted them banned and then whined to have them put back? ROFL. Sit down, step back, get over it. Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:54:00 - [100] "I believe you could defend hacking someones forum with that little speach." I guess it'd be taking the things rather backward, since the argument was it's possible to view external forums as part of game which makes them fair game to game-based infiltration. But on the other hand yes, you could probably say if someone sees external forums as out-of-game thing, then using "out of game" means to gain access to it (hacking) is reasonable approach to take. This is imo somewhat more muddled up than the earlier take on it because using the out-of-game ("real world") tools on equally out-of-game physical hardware tends to be viewed as illegal ... but ultimately this is just personal opinion i hold, based on where i draw the "in game/out of it" line myself.
Omega Man The Geddy Foundation	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:54:00 - [101] Originally by: Sinlare Originally by: Omega Man Well it is okay when you are doing it. It is not okay when it is being done to you. This ruling can be applied to many things. For once, try to start up that brain of yours before posting. I knew the mix of sarcasm and flexible morality contained in my post was going to be a bit much for some people. If you dont understand it, best to keep quiet and not look to silly being clever.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:55:00 - [102] Originally by: Heintron Originally by: j0sephine "However. Using methods such as Teamspeak & (outgame) forum "infiltration" (ur not really spies, dont humor urselves) is not that different for buying isk with cash. Ur going out of game to gain an advantage in it. & taking it out of game isnt kewl." There's a catch to this reasoning -- if we classify things like game-oriented TS channel and game-oriented forum as "out of game", then the people who run these are using "out of game" means to gain in-game advantage themselves, which in turn is quite against the game EULA. You can't have your cookie and eat it -- either this is out of game medium and as such should be not existing/utilized in the first place, or it is part of the game and as such fair play to game-based infiltration etc. Besides there's then also issue of soon-to-come in-game voice communication. Will it be "fair game" to compromise with game character because it's part of the game client, even though it performs the same function 3rd party based voice communication does? Or will it be off limits because of 3rd party applications allowing the same... but in this particular case the "it's not part of game" argument when it's part of game client is seriously going to look even more silly it does now... I believe you could defend hacking someones forum with that little speach. I think you could, nice point. if i dont need to run the client to make it work, its out of game. That makes it simple and easy.
Julia Lycera	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:58:00 - [103] Originally by: Serapis Aote Originally by: Heintron Originally by: j0sephine "However. Using methods such as Teamspeak & (outgame) forum "infiltration" (ur not really spies, dont humor urselves) is not that different for buying isk with cash. Ur going out of game to gain an advantage in it. & taking it out of game isnt kewl." There's a catch to this reasoning -- if we classify things like game-oriented TS channel and game-oriented forum as "out of game", then the people who run these are using "out of game" means to gain in-game advantage themselves, which in turn is quite against the game EULA. You can't have your cookie and eat it -- either this is out of game medium and as such should be not existing/utilized in the first place, or it is part of the game and as such fair play to game-based infiltration etc. Besides there's then also issue of soon-to-come in-game voice communication. Will it be "fair game" to compromise with game character because it's part of the game client, even though it performs the same function 3rd party based voice communication does? Or will it be off limits because of 3rd party applications allowing the same... but in this particular case the "it's not part of game" argument when it's part of game client is seriously going to look even more silly it does now... I believe you could defend hacking someones forum with that little speach. I think you could, nice point. if i dont need to run the client to make it work, its out of game. That makes it simple and easy. It would really come down to wether CCP views it as a breach of the EULA not us legal beavers on the forums
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 22:59:00 - [104] Edited by: j0sephine on 02/01/2007 23:00:06 "if i dont need to run the client to make it work, its out of game. That makes it simple and easy." OK, let me then bring up again the point which is being conveniently brushed off since it just doesn't fit this line of logic. When there is in-game voice communication included come next patch or whenever, will it be perfectly acceptable for people to spy it, while at the same time people will still cry fool about doing the very same thing on TS/Vent..? edit: and if external forums and communication are "out of game", how do you accept people utilizing them in the first place, when it'd make it clear case of "out of game tools used to gain in-game advantage" which is against the game EULA..?
Verus Potestas Caldari The I-Win Button	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:00:00 - [105] Social engineering to any level is acceptable IMO. It isn't nice, and it certainly isn't sportsmanlike. Still, that isn't what matters really. Any form of hacking is completely out. --- In third-party forums we trust Did i ask for anyone to copy this into their sig? No, ****heads, its my text, not yours.
Spikum Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:04:00 - [106] I would say there are two moralities from where you can take alook at things, the first one is the "ingame-morality" this morality is for podkills, alliancewars, gankage and whatsoever, from this point of view you can say The role of a spy is a very usefull in a war. Why not Create a spy and infiltrate the hostile corp? The "Reallife-morality" is thisone where you feel sorry for a guy you just ganked who is in game for like two months ratting in a .4. from thispoint you will see the spy issue as some unfair stuff, i think i dont need to mention exactly since my english is too limited anyway i guess. The Point is where it leaves the game mechanics and goes the step further, e.g. Teamspeak infiltration for example. The thing really is how you got to the information for infiltrating a tool which all players use to make their gameplay easy, Teamspeak is just a outgame chatchannel. When a guy manages to gain the information from using game mechanics its all right. The point is where it comes to Passwordguessing, hacking,exploiting and so on, those are the real unfair things which really cross the border and shouldnt be tolerated by anyone at all.
Dominie Dirtch	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:05:00 - [107] I find it highly amusing that BoB take the moral high ground here after them selfs posting internal blogs and messages from ASCN forums or are you all forgetting that? BoB deserve nothing less than what has been done to them - weather it be through legal or illegal means. BoB have destroyed peoples games through ripping friendships apart, they had no mercy, i don't expect them to receive any. War is War, bring morality into it and you will loose. Good on you Kugut, well done on your intel. To BoB, how does it feel on the other side for once?
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:06:00 - [108] Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 02/01/2007 23:09:08 3 years ago, I would have said even putting a spy in another corporation was in poor taste. But after witnessing the things I have in the last 3 years of EVE, I've become a little bit desensitized. I think the line is crossed when you do any of the following: 1. log into somebody else's account (without their permission) 2. damage, permanently or temporarily somebody else's real life property (like the corp that had their forums destroyed a few months back) 3. Attempt to acquire real life intel about an individual for the purpose of stealing money from them, or worse. Hacking into a forum doesn't really make my list. I've seen it done by various types of people. One kind has the desire to cause real life damage, and the other just to gather information to be used in game. I've known people who would use said information to log onto accounts, and I've known others who would deliberately ignore information that would get them into other player's accounts, and even their paypal accounts. "Hacking" might be illegal, but based on the number of virus's and spyware programs I clean off of my relatives computers every few months it seems that gathering information about a fictional eve corporation would be very low on the priority list when most hacking is directly involved with acquiring passwords and account numbers for REAL LIFE money accounts. Theres a big difference between hacking into something, and hacking something apart. EDIT: And yes I know its illegal in some places. So is copying mp3's...I'm sure the entire eve community is against that. Shamis
Hakera Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:07:00 - [109] It seems the consensus is OOG servers/tools may be infiltrated through disguise or user info leak, but their function should not be disrupted (hacked, ddos etc etc). Whether you find it acceptable or not, and by extension socially acceptable within eve by our 'society of eggers'. But then we come back to not just morality but consequences of actions and the effect of social opinion on your own decision making, whether you want to be seen as the lame, use all methods to win at whatever cost or to simply not lose at any cost i spose.
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:10:00 - [110] Originally by: Verus Potestas Social engineering to any level is acceptable IMO. It isn't nice, and it certainly isn't sportsmanlike. Still, that isn't what matters really. Tell me why it doesnt matter really. Tell me. --------------------------------
Dominie Dirtch Minmatar Revival.	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:11:00 - [111] Additionally, to Molle. Posting someones name is an infringement of their rights. If you want to play real-life-cop then you need to catch up on your rules. As for letting their 'boss' know, 1- I doubt they would listen to you 2- It would give confidence to their boss in their employee's abilities I doubt a game would cause this 'person' any problems in their real life at all, but nevertheless, you find that you need to post it anyway :) Just shows how much it has affected you. ---- My sound shall render you dead
Luthien Firefoot Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:12:00 - [112] When playing hide and seek, one of the key rules is to keep you eyes shut while your opponents hide. Keeping you eyes open, or looking through fingers is like ts / forum spying, corp infiltration by lying etc... It's cheating, plain and simple. If it helps someone win eve, then congratulations, but they are a loser in my eyes. As for the association that I read once, that spying is done in rl etc.. Well that's true, they are usually shot or made to disappear by your enemies, because they are extremely dangerous, if caught obviously. Spying in eve holds no risk, unlike pvp, especially if the perpetrators are 'powerful'. After all what can the eve community do to the blessed few... It's just a case of how far a person / organisation is prepared to go, to guarantee a 'win'... Views are my own, blah blah
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:12:00 - [113] Originally by: Dominie Dirtch I find it highly amusing that BoB take the moral high ground here after them selfs posting internal blogs and messages from ASCN forums or are you all forgetting that? BoB deserve nothing less than what has been done to them - weather it be through legal or illegal means. BoB have destroyed peoples games through ripping friendships apart, they had no mercy, i don't expect them to receive any. War is War, bring morality into it and you will loose. Good on you Kugut, well done on your intel. To BoB, how does it feel on the other side for once? you are even worse than any bob spy --------------------------------
Cipher7	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:14:00 - [114] IMO espionage and manipulation are part of Eve's "cool" factor but I also think said espionage and manipulation should be PART of the game not ABOVE it. Like instead of making an alt and using that, there should be skills for spying on a corp. That is...spying should be IN-GAME not OUT OF GAME. Anything beyond that isn't gaming, it's meta-gaming, that is, going OUTside the game and winning the game that way. I personally don't do that. If I have to use alts to play Eve, I rather just quit.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:15:00 - [115] Edited by: Serapis Aote on 02/01/2007 23:16:28 Originally by: j0sephine Edited by: j0sephine on 02/01/2007 23:00:06 "if i dont need to run the client to make it work, its out of game. That makes it simple and easy." OK, let me then bring up again the point which is being conveniently brushed off since it just doesn't fit this line of logic. When there is in-game voice communication included come next patch or whenever, will it be perfectly acceptable for people to spy it, while at the same time people will still cry fool about doing the very same thing on TS/Vent..? yes, seems fairgame to me, if you can use only in game mechanics to get on, then by all means it seems to be in the game then to me. Originally by: j0sephine edit: and if external forums and communication are "out of game", how do you accept people utilizing them in the first place, when it'd make it clear case of "out of game tools used to gain in-game advantage" which is against the game EULA..? Personally i would say about 70-80% of what happens on our forums have nothing to do with eve at all. Not to mention what is meant by that line is the EULA is out of game tools (programs/scripts) that effect the way the client and the game run. In a nutshell, "tools" is a term of art as used in the contract, and in this instance forums are not a "tool" in that regard. Edit: Although i have always somewhat thought that TS/vent were at least partly against that part of the EULA, and companies just didnt want to do anything about them, or couldnt.
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:16:00 - [116] "When playing hide and seek, one of the key rules is to keep you eyes shut while your opponents hide. Keeping you eyes open, or looking through fingers is like ts / forum spying, corp infiltration by lying etc..." To keep your eyes shut is one of rules of hide and seek. There is no rule in EVE which prohibits infiltration. To the contrary, it's said to be part of the game world rules. Therefore infiltration in EVE (following rules of the game) is by no means like keeping your eyes open in hide and seek (breaking rules of the game) don't mix your games up ^^
Tomsudy Minmatar Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:33:00 - [117] its just kinda sad really that people would resort to that sort of thing in a game but if they want to i guess there is no real way to stop anyone ________________________________________ THTA
AlvynNevins Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:34:00 - [118] Eve should be fun to play. It's about friendship and camaraderie. If someone needs help, i will help. I like shooting things. That's fun for me. Some people like building stuff and enjoy that For some people it's fun to behave like a friend but to infiltrate your corp/alliance which you have built up with friends. It's not the kind of style of gaming i (and i think all of us in RATEL) like. I think you cross the border when you log into your "enemies" TS-server and start brabbling while you listen for fleetcommands. Hacking into a webserver etc. just to gain information to win a war is just absolutely low. Fight with your virtual guns :)
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:34:00 - [119] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Originally by: KIAEddZ No morale limits at all. War is war. eddz, i saw the video of your RL meeting. war? ... you seem to be fixed to this rl meeting stuff so ill add to it. A rl meeting always bears the risk of someone beeing dishonest. Welcome to the internet. Some ppl lie about their rl even if it doesnt grant them any advantage ingame just to feel better or to look better. I for one go to those meets always with a grain of salt knowing fairly well that someone might talk bollox there. The point is a corp of 200 guys all friends and really tight is illusional. You will have your 5-10 m8s you trust with your life the rest are corpies you might just meet once a year. Completely unrelated to internet spacegames there have been many cases where m8s sold out m8s or best friends cheated on best friends irl and there still are every day. To think just because someone is in your corp that he must be loyal upright and have no ill feelings is abit naiv or ? I mean it doesnt even cover the fact that some relationships turn sour over a game over time, similar to spying and corpthefts. In short im quiet sure eddz exspects that there could be someone going to those rl meets who might sooner or later stab him in the back (ingame) but having a rl blast > ingame worries any time of the day.
Xendie Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:37:00 - [120] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Xendie what i think is worse then spying and infiltrating corps/alliances or even being given a sql dump from the enemies web admins is the fact that rules on these forums are effectively being changed to fit what one party ingame wants it be when they are the subject of the spying and infiltrating. now that is lame of CCP to allow. The rules were changed BECAUSE of us, xendie, not FOR us. We OBJECTED to to the stupid "no intel posts / internal forums" rule, it is pathetic, but it's there - now you're screaming that, AFTER it's changed, it's OUR fault? Get a grip. you are the ones that have used OOG forum info on these forums in the past and then it was very much ok. when you are the recipient of it you whine and whine to your moderators so the rules gets changed. you did it on the sig images and you did it on this. get a grip yourself. We are the ones that have used information that we were GIVEN, xendie, stop letting your bitterness get in the way of your judgement. ANY corp we have infiltrated use of the forums AND ts has been MANDATORY. You say get a grip yet it's you who point blank refuses to engage the notion that, actually, we're not cheats, nor do we have anyone high up in CCP, you simply cannot get it round your nouse that we're BETTER than you. Prior to the sig rules "change" THERE WAS NO RULE u muppet. People had been making sigs of a similar nature to ours for YEARS prior to us doing the ascn set - you think we wanted them banned and then whined to have them put back? ROFL. Sit down, step back, get over it. i dont trust your word further then my nose protrudes out from my face. you were given the info, yeah right. kugutsumen were GIVEN a sql dump from your forums. you were allowed to post screenies and inside information you had gotten(god knows how) from other alliances forums and webservers. when kugutsumen posted about bob you whined and cried and screamed hax/sploits and so on to the moderators so they ban him from the forums. why should we believe you who has in the past stolen/been given info from other people forums/web servers and posted it on these forums and not him? you look at it as impossible that someone in your midst would do something like giving all the info out to someone but it happens to everyone at some point. as you propably know very well yourself. you need to plug the intel hole and i would start with your server admins who gave away the sql dump and not cry so damn much about it. get a grip. as for the sig rules yes there have been moderation rules of sigs before and you know it since you have been petitioning every single on of my sigs for any remote chance of giving me a warning. get a life Diana. and personal attacks such as calling me a muppet will be reported as soon as [email protected] works again. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?

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