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Espionage and Manipulation - Where should be stopped?

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Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 19:58:00 - [1] Since the other topic is closed i would like to ask you a question about spying on enemy entities. We could debate here until theres no tomorrow. Fact is that Forum Hacking is illegal by law. Shouting on Teamspeak, posting private chatlogs and sharing mp3's from meetings isnt. It is also not illegal by law if a member of BoB infiltrates a Corp and plays the friend by even going to a RL meeting. But morally? No - i am no shiny knight, im just able to realize that behind the PC there are real people. And some borders arent to be crossed. Im surely getting called "Emolouse" for this again, but it really interests me what other pilots think Where is the border/limit on alliance/corp infiltration and manipulation? --------------------------------
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:02:00 - [2] I like espionage but im sure my corp is filled with spies (they are all after my tech 3 tuxedo) Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -Marcus TheMartin
Christopher Multsanti Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:08:00 - [3] I have come to the conclusion that these problems all stem from one person. Sir Molle. Now if we could just get him banned, everything would be great in the world of Eve. /me wonders to himself if this possible, I'll work on it and get back to you. It's great being Amarr that flys Minmintar aint it? EVIL SYNNs > Bob are the best, we have to pay them to use the plexs...
Elisca Black Gallente Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:08:00 - [4] Edited by: Elisca Black on 02/01/2007 20:11:23 Anything that involves relationships between human beings is completely legal. After all the own-ness is on the people involved. Not on the third party. Breaking into a computer or server is completely out of the question. If you "guess" the password for a teamspeak server, it is crossing the line. If you are given a semi-public password to a teamspeak server, it is legal. After all a "guest" password as it is, is for public people who are "invited". When you give out your semi-public password you are allowing them to invite other people as well. If you are given a private-username password for a teamspeak server, that would be legal, because the person who gave it to you is therefor giving you permission to assume his identity. The same would apply for forums. Anything done in the sandbox of eve, from scamming to lieing, to even guessing the password of "private-channel" I would say is legal. As ccp is the creator and they make the rules.
Spike Spegel Minmatar Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:09:00 - [5] Edited by: Spike Spegel on 02/01/2007 20:10:36 The cultural level of any comunity is always as high as high is the level of it's cultural lowest member... Spike out __________________________ [3-I] till I die
Barty McFly Black Nova Corp	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:10:00 - [6] Edited by: Barty McFly on 02/01/2007 20:11:33 1) if infiltrating a teamspeak server/forum by invitation (given username/password) under an assumed ingame identity, then yes morally it's not very nice. 2) if infiltrating a teamspeak server/forum by breaking in uninvited, then sorry completly different. I live in the eve world that number 1 has been going on to us for just as long as we've been doing it to other people, it's part of the game to me and regarding morals, i have few as far as eves concerned, not anymore ever since my early eve days, screw or be screwed, we play to win. I feel sorry for the codemonkeys that were busier than usual at xmas :(
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:11:00 - [7] Originally by: Elisca Black Anything that involves relationships between human beings is completely legal. After all the own-ness is on the people involved. Not on the third party. Breaking into a computer or server is completely out of the question. If you "guess" the password for a teamspeak server, it is crossing the line. If you are given a semi-public password to a teamspeak server, it is legal. After all a "guest" password as it is, is for public people are are "invited". If you are given a private-username password for a teamspeak server, that would be legal, because the person who gave it to you is therefor giving you permission to assume his identity. The same would apply for forums. Anything done in the sandbox of eve, from scamming to lieing, to even guessing the password of "private-channel" I would say is legal. As ccp is the creator and they make the rules. you got me wrong here. i know what is illegal by law. that was not my point. im asking where the moral border is - if there is any --------------------------------
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:15:00 - [8] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse im asking where the moral border is - if there is any The "moral border" is the point at which, if it was made public that you as a person were carrying out the dubious actions, you would be embarrassed. This applies to anyone in EVE, IMO. -[23] Member- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame)
Elisca Black Gallente Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:16:00 - [9] Edited by: Elisca Black on 02/01/2007 20:19:07 Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Originally by: Elisca Black Anything that involves relationships between human beings is completely legal. After all the own-ness is on the people involved. Not on the third party. Breaking into a computer or server is completely out of the question. If you "guess" the password for a teamspeak server, it is crossing the line. If you are given a semi-public password to a teamspeak server, it is legal. After all a "guest" password as it is, is for public people are are "invited". If you are given a private-username password for a teamspeak server, that would be legal, because the person who gave it to you is therefor giving you permission to assume his identity. The same would apply for forums. Anything done in the sandbox of eve, from scamming to lieing, to even guessing the password of "private-channel" I would say is legal. As ccp is the creator and they make the rules. you got me wrong here. i know what is illegal by law. that was not my point. im asking where the moral border is - if there is any All is fair in love and war. The problem isnt that people lie, cheat and steal..The challenge in-game is to create a social-structure which can defeat that. Dont hate the player, hate the game. Morality only extends to which there are consequences? By playing you agree to be subject to everything involved, when you don't agree to it, it is not morally correct.
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:16:00 - [10] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse im asking where the moral border is - if there is any The "moral border" is the point at which, if it was made public that you as a person were carrying out the dubious actions, you would be embarrassed. This applies to anyone in EVE, IMO. so u are saying that morale is subjective in EVE? --------------------------------
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:17:00 - [11] Edited by: Cmd Woodlouse on 02/01/2007 20:17:47 Originally by: Elisca Black Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Originally by: Elisca Black Anything that involves relationships between human beings is completely legal. After all the own-ness is on the people involved. Not on the third party. Breaking into a computer or server is completely out of the question. If you "guess" the password for a teamspeak server, it is crossing the line. If you are given a semi-public password to a teamspeak server, it is legal. After all a "guest" password as it is, is for public people are are "invited". If you are given a private-username password for a teamspeak server, that would be legal, because the person who gave it to you is therefor giving you permission to assume his identity. The same would apply for forums. Anything done in the sandbox of eve, from scamming to lieing, to even guessing the password of "private-channel" I would say is legal. As ccp is the creator and they make the rules. you got me wrong here. i know what is illegal by law. that was not my point. im asking where the moral border is - if there is any All is fair in love and war. The problem isnt that people lie, cheat and steal..The challenge in-game is to create a social-structure which can defeat that. Dont hate the player, hate the game. Playing a friend on a RL meeting is more out of game than ingame for me... and where is the challenge if u know anything about ur enemy? u cant lose then... --------------------------------
Angry Dan Caldari Momentum. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:20:00 - [12] Too many people ahve too few scruples. And there behavious ingame is like real life. With the breaks off Infiltration, betrayl theft and the like is low in real life. This is agame people play to have fun in. People don't want to have to deal with that crap in a game as well. I play for fun. Mine and others too. Theres to many selfish people who care only for there own fun. ++++++++++++++++++++ Founder member of the Huzzah Federation. Remember, the grass is greener on our side of the fence Widowmakers director Fear my kneepads of allure!
whopper Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:22:00 - [13] from the backside of the eve-online gamebox, second line: "Conceive a new life without boundaries, where murder, plunder, betrayal, and delusions of grandeur will lead you to boundless glory or to the brink of ruin. think about it. whopper -feel the fire
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:22:00 - [14] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Where is the border/limit on alliance/corp infiltration and manipulation? I guess my position on that is already well known and laughed at. One person = one character. New RL owner of a character/account? wtfnowai. And then we really wouldn't have any of these troubles at all. But then again, it's about CCP making money. So instead everyone is encouraged to have at least 5 accounts and change characters as often as underpants. And with that enviroment as a playground, it's a problem that can't be fixed. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:23:00 - [15] Edited by: j0sephine on 02/01/2007 20:24:51 "But morally? No - i am no shiny knight, im just able to realize that behind the PC there are real people. And some borders arent to be crossed. Im surely getting called "Emolouse" for this again, but it really interests me what other pilots think Where is the border/limit on alliance/corp infiltration and manipulation?" It may be cheap copout i guess, yet "it's dirty work but someone has to do it" springs to mind. To clarify, it's not something that needs to be done, technically -- i.e. it's quite possible to play the game without this additional layer. But on the other hand it is something that's being advertised as part of what EVE is about, by its own developers. Some corporations like GHSC take this ball and run with it -- while people may complain about morality of it, you cannot deny their infiltration heist was one of few EVE events that made it to RL gaming press ... and it was major reason for plenty people who read such reports to check the game out in the first place. Besides the morality argument is slippery slope in the first place. If it's immoral to infilitrate another alliance, then how is it at the same time 'moral' to claim a piece of 0.0 space and deny entry to anyone but "our own people"? Or shoot others and blow up their ships? Sure it's all fun and games, but it's the real people you deny access and prevent them from having fun they'd perhaps like to have there just the same. It's quite simple in the end. Corporation and alliance infiltration and sabotage is expected and stated in advance part of the game. Just like claiming space and blowing up assets of other people is.
Butter Dog Gallente The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:24:00 - [16] Where is the fun in fighting an enemy if you have TS spies and know exactly what their fleet is doing? For me it makes it somehow more than a game. I'm not interested in that, tbh, I don't care about winning enough to 'cheat', so to speak. Fun is more important. Good Sportsmanship > Winning.
Bombcrater DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:26:00 - [17] For me the moral line is clear. PvP in this game is about fighting, in-game, with ships. You gain an edge over your enemies by being more professional, more organised, and more determined. Gaining that edge by the use of spies is wrong. Using saboteurs, turncoats and TS infiltrators is doubly wrong and utterly lame. There's a certain satisfacion in watching those who live by these lame tactics getting undermined by even more lame tactics, but it's tinged with regret that people are prepared to sink so low. I personally don't leave my morals behind when I hit the connect button. Eve is a game, but the people playing it are very real.
Elisca Black Gallente Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:26:00 - [18] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Edited by: Cmd Woodlouse on 02/01/2007 20:17:47 Originally by: Elisca Black Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Originally by: Elisca Black Anything that involves relationships between human beings is completely legal. After all the own-ness is on the people involved. Not on the third party. Breaking into a computer or server is completely out of the question. If you "guess" the password for a teamspeak server, it is crossing the line. If you are given a semi-public password to a teamspeak server, it is legal. After all a "guest" password as it is, is for public people are are "invited". If you are given a private-username password for a teamspeak server, that would be legal, because the person who gave it to you is therefor giving you permission to assume his identity. The same would apply for forums. Anything done in the sandbox of eve, from scamming to lieing, to even guessing the password of "private-channel" I would say is legal. As ccp is the creator and they make the rules. you got me wrong here. i know what is illegal by law. that was not my point. im asking where the moral border is - if there is any All is fair in love and war. The problem isnt that people lie, cheat and steal..The challenge in-game is to create a social-structure which can defeat that. Dont hate the player, hate the game. Playing a friend on a RL meeting is more out of game than ingame for me... and where is the challenge if u know anything about ur enemy? u cant lose then... Morality only extends to which there are consequences? By playing you agree to be subject to everything involved, when you don't agree to it, it is not morally correct. A real-life meeting with someone who is your "enemy" in game and does not tell you? Man that's complicated..such a dilema, I guess the tragedy is that you would have to assume they are there to play the game. Friend or not, I guess you would have to have no expectations of someone and just take it as it comes. It's low, and I would hope as human-being you could have a beer after the fact. But draw the line...in-game, out of game. Tough man.
Garrard Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:27:00 - [19] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse im asking where the moral border is - if there is any The "moral border" is the point at which, if it was made public that you as a person were carrying out the dubious actions, you would be embarrassed. This applies to anyone in EVE, IMO. so u are saying that morale is subjective in EVE? of course they are subjective, in EvE as well as in any "game" I mean, most if not all of us here would not hesitate to shoot a neutral or hostile in space, but would you say we all are psychopaths that would walk out in the street and shoot some unknown person for being on our block? probly not. would you steal from your next door neighbor? probly not but most here would not think twice about "liberating" a jet can in 0.0 so yes subjective. if you don't want spies in your TS and in your forums start screening the people your with better. not to hard to weed most of them out.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:30:00 - [20] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 02/01/2007 20:32:02 I draw the limit where the law lies. Resorting to hacking someones Web/Vent/Ts servers is just poor. Disrupting teamspeak/vent chatter by singing if you manage to find their Pw the legal way, ie from a member with access is reasonably okay though, al though im not a fan of this tactic. I'm all in favor of manipulation and infiltration though, makes eve interesting. I wish CCP would add game mechanics to do/control this though. Ie items stolen through corp thefts are flagged as stolen and require certain acts to be flagged as normal so that they can be sold on the market or flown into empire. Character histories, names, faces, etc should be forge able but also be traceable with the right tools/skills/contacts. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:32:00 - [21] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse you got me wrong here. i know what is illegal by law. that was not my point. im asking where the moral border is - if there is any The moral border is where it has always been: in whatever the zeitgeist (or portions thereof) supports. That's why there's a clash here between different people over the issue. Some people see it this way, 1) Something was initially done which violated, at the very least, a social <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norm_%28sociology%29">more</a> (apologies, wikipedia's sociology section is pretty poor) 2) Another more was violated, this time against the person who perpetrated the first violation 3) Some people feel that the second action is justified as a sanction on the first Others see it this way, 1) Something was initially done which violated, at the most, a folkway 2) A more, at least, was violated against the person who carried out the first action 3) Some people feel that the second action is unjustified as the first action didn't carry the penalty of social sanctions So ultimately, your analyzation of the the timeline depends on two things: - What kind of norm was initially violated? - What kind of sactions are justified for that violation? PS: As a side note, I suggest using the sociological perspective on this matter (both because it's more useful and because it avoids moderation). The "rule of law" lens always seems to fail in internet discussions, and there's a reason for that. Simply, a lot of "us" (people on the internet) do things which are at the very least "naughty," and quite possibly illegal in the course of every day.
Elisca Black Gallente Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:32:00 - [22] Edited by: Elisca Black on 02/01/2007 20:38:41 Edited by: Elisca Black on 02/01/2007 20:37:34 Edited by: Elisca Black on 02/01/2007 20:35:08 Better yet..can you play a game of paintball with someone, who just vicously shot u in the back 20 times after you said hit? Then play on there team as a team-mate? People play a game, to play the game. If the rules are no rules...then play the game. It would be fair, to ask someone outside of eve if they are "playing eve still" or out to have a beer. If they said "no" and later turned on me or lied or something, then I would do what you would to someone in real life who screwed you. Personally, as a person though I could not be that grey. Even though i've shot CE and G and D2 my entire eve career, I could still have a beer with you guys and have fun. However, I wouldnt pretend I was an alliance mate, I would just tell you straight, i'm gonna blow all your stuff up.
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:37:00 - [23] Originally by: whopper from the backside of the eve-online gamebox, second line: "Conceive a new life without boundaries, where murder, plunder, betrayal, and delusions of grandeur will lead you to boundless glory or to the brink of ruin. think about it. whopper -feel the fire I dont think CCP wanted it that way. --------------------------------
Trina Tron Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:37:00 - [24] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse But morally? Why should anyone give a flying ** about morals in a video game ffs. ----------------------------------- Originally by:** Santiago Cortes Locked Begging is not allowed or appreciated on the forums. Whining remains perfectly acceptable.
Acwron Minmatar Cataclysm Enterprises	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:43:00 - [25] I don't think anybody as a player would have issues if there would be actual characters who are bribed or somebody who makes up his mind and decides to infiltrate corperations as a carerrer. That would actually require ingame social engineering. As a character I might feel betrayed and angry but it's all fair and well in the EVE Universe. But once you use totally unrelated "alts" you are using out of game mechanics. And yes I think it was wrong that CCP encouraged this because you stop playing the game with the agendas of the characters and start only using the ones of the player. This degrades the characters to tools. You don't have to account for your actions and history because it does not reflect back on your actual identity. I don't think this is what CCP had orginally in mind.
Louis DelaBlanche Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:45:00 - [26] My 2 cents. My view on spying & all that is the same as my view on most things to do with EVE. If its ingame its okay. Whether its taddling on ur corp/alliance mates; stealing everything under the sun (& above it); or pretending to be a super kewl dude when ur a thief. If its ingame & within the rules, thats kewl (although forgive me for hating u for doing it ) However. Using methods such as Teamspeak & (outgame) forum "infiltration" (ur not really spies, dont humor urselves) is not that different for buying isk with cash. Ur going out of game to gain an advantage in it. & taking it out of game isnt kewl.
Quarantine 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:45:00 - [27] first page in nublouse thread \o/
Hey You Constructive Influence	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:46:00 - [28] by doing it in game, and by socialising with others, thus getting accepted in corp / alliance its all fine and i support it. gets more fun into game. to hack your way in... its retarded. buzz off. on the end of the day when u turn game off all of that is something similiar to a movie u once watched. To fall in love and fall in debt To alcohol and cigarettes and Mary Jane To keep me insane and doing someone else's cocain
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:46:00 - [29] Originally by: Elisca Black Personally, as a person though I could not be that grey. Even though i've shot CE and G and D2 my entire eve career, I could still have a beer with you guys and have fun. However, I wouldnt pretend I was an alliance mate, I would just tell you straight, i'm gonna blow all your stuff up. Maybe we are different, but for some of us EVE and friends is something that is compatible. And im not even an inet-loser Its not me not being able to divide between EVE and RL. The person that visits a RL meeting and plays a mate just to gain information for a game is not able to do that in my oppinion. And there is the border for me personally. --------------------------------
Hey You Constructive Influence	Posted - 2007.01.02 20:47:00 - [30] and answer to ops question. It shouldnt be stoped at all. To fall in love and fall in debt To alcohol and cigarettes and Mary Jane To keep me insane and doing someone else's cocain

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