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Countering Bumping ganks in highsec

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Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 3694	Posted - 2015.11.18 19:25:07 - [391] - Quote Serendipity Lost wrote: So to be clear cupcake - I said gankers shouldn't be allowed to play by ping. I never said freighters should be allowed to auto pilot or be AFK. True, you did not, but you should at least admit that it is a possible outcome. If this change is enough to making ganking effectively extinct, then there is very little doubt in my mind that freighter pilots will likely go back to moving around AFK with ganks only happening when there is enough loot in the freighter to justify an attempt to one shot them off the field. Serendipity Lost wrote: You added that because I'm right, you're paniced that I'm right and your only vialble means to argue is to 'add in' things I didn't say and argue the points you added in. All the while calling me pathetic (If only I could think of a word to describe what you are doing.... hmm...) There you go with the mind reading again. Look, it is possible for CCP to nerf ganking so hard that it becomes effectively impossible. For example, make Concord response times a uniform 2 seconds everywhere in HS. Or simply prevent acts of aggression outside of wardecs in HS. If this were to happen, then it is not at all unreasonable to think people would return to using freighters with auto-pilotingGÇöi.e. they are largely AFK. Serendipity Lost wrote: What you quoted me as saying: "Gankers should not be able to just log in and kill somebody, but freighters totally have the right to be afk without consequence." This is absolutely a nerf to ganking. If you can no longer ping for the people you need then those sudden and unexpected opportunities for play are no effectively gone. And where does this stop? What if a hostile gang comes through our space and somebody wants to try and form a response fleet? Oh, pinging-for-PvP is bad? Where exactly is this line drawn? Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Zimmer Jones Aliastra Gallente Federation 353	Posted - 2015.11.18 19:39:14 - [392] - Quote a return to cheap high alpha ships chipping away system after system at targets of opportunity carrying even more expensive cargoes through "safe space." with 2 second response times in every highsec system it would mean every system then becomes equally unsafe and sec status means nothing apart from 1.0 systems. result? Freightergeddon. Do you really think the cost is an issue when it comes to helicopter dicking? yeah it'll happen less frequently, but the whine will taste the same. Being disturbing is better than being boring.
Kaarous Aldurald Black Hydra Consortium. 15104	Posted - 2015.11.18 23:56:11 - [393] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: I mean, seriously, that is the single stupidest thing I have ever read on these forums, and that includes the tripe that Infinity Ziona or Dinsdale used to post. That is a high bar...errr low bar....whatever. Oh, it's a very high bar. You need to be running full speed like a bull in a china shop to clear that one. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 3697	Posted - 2015.11.19 03:49:20 - [394] - Quote Zimmer Jones wrote: a return to cheap high alpha ships chipping away system after system at targets of opportunity carrying even more expensive cargoes through "safe space." with 2 second response times in every highsec system it would mean every system then becomes equally unsafe and sec status means nothing apart from 1.0 systems. result? Freightergeddon. Do you really think the cost is an issue when it comes to helicopter dicking? yeah it'll happen less frequently, but the whine will taste the same. Yeah, but only the fattest freighters will get ganked IMO. Sure some freighters that don't have sufficient loot might get ganked, but I'm thinking that an 8-9 billion cargo to ensure breaking even will mean far fewer ganks (assuming they fit reinforced bulkheads...if they fit cargo expanders, then the break even point is 4.23 billion). The point being if I drop 2 billion in cargo into my obelisk with reinforced bulkheads and go autu-piloting around chances are I wont be ganked hardly at all. Maybe once every 5 years. So, in this case, AFK play has been buffed--i.e. Serendipity is kinda advocating for AFK play. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 1037	Posted - 2015.11.19 04:12:06 - [395] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Zimmer Jones wrote: a return to cheap high alpha ships chipping away system after system at targets of opportunity carrying even more expensive cargoes through "safe space." with 2 second response times in every highsec system it would mean every system then becomes equally unsafe and sec status means nothing apart from 1.0 systems. result? Freightergeddon. Do you really think the cost is an issue when it comes to helicopter dicking? yeah it'll happen less frequently, but the whine will taste the same. Yeah, but only the fattest freighters will get ganked IMO. Sure some freighters that don't have sufficient loot might get ganked, but I'm thinking that an 8-9 billion cargo to ensure breaking even will mean far fewer ganks (assuming they fit reinforced bulkheads...if they fit cargo expanders, then the break even point is 4.23 billion). The point being if I drop 2 billion in cargo into my obelisk with reinforced bulkheads and go autu-piloting around chances are I wont be ganked hardly at all. Maybe once every 5 years. So, in this case, AFK play has been buffed--i.e. Serendipity is kinda advocating for AFK play. You make it seem as if a pilot is doing something sinful if they autopilot at all. By your logic the only way freighters should be allowed to move is if someone hooks up pedals to the PC and they have to use that to move around at all. It's not like they are fast, interesting, or all that fun to fly. Moving stuff around is fun, and I can see popping them as fun... But restoring the balance on moving them around is a real concern for some.
Hiasa Kite Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 336	Posted - 2015.11.19 04:34:20 - [396] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: You make it seem as if a pilot is doing something sinful if they autopilot at all. Sinful? No. Suboptimal? Very. Quote: But restoring the balance on moving them around is a real concern for some. Agreed. Hence why I argue against the ability to safely AFK haul multiple billions of ISK worth of goods around HiSec. Gotta keep it balanced for the little haulers and traders too, ya know. <^.^> I'm a cat lol
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 642	Posted - 2015.11.19 05:11:14 - [397] - Quote Hiasa Kite wrote: Donnachadh wrote: It is extremely easy too figure out how to bump someone in a way that reduces their "speed" in the direction they were trying to warp WITHOUT imparting speed along any other "vector". Hang on. Let me wrap my head around this. On one hand you've got a freighter with a ~70m/s entry warp speed. On the other, you've got a Machariel with a ~2000m/s max speed and a 7-8sec align time. You're trying to tell me that at no point during bump tackle, the freighter is never allowed to move faster than the requisite ~70m/s. As in, the Mach bumps the freighter, slows, re-manouvres, overtakes the freighter and re-bumps in such a way the freighter can never possibly enter warp on any vector? All of this while successfully nudging the freighter away from the gate some 400-500km to not only evade sentry guns but to also bump off grid so third parties are less likely to spot what's going on and interfere. I've got to be honest, I knew there was some degree of skill involved when it came to bumping but that, right there is pretty gosh darn impressive! Like, mind-blowing impressive. Never said it was easy, I said it was possible.
Iain Cariaba 1980	Posted - 2015.11.19 05:16:17 - [398] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: You make it seem as if a pilot is doing something sinful if they autopilot at all. When you're flying a ship that costs over a billion isk, it's not sinful to autopilot. It's stupid to autopilot. Autopilots are for use when traversing safe areas, of which there are none in EvE. In EvE, the only people who use autopilot are those who undock, set desto, then go do something else while their ship blindly makes its way through hostile space. Honestly, removing autopilot (not the route planner, just the ap) from the game would go a long way in curbing a lot of the whining about ganking. Mike Voidstar wrote: By your logic the only way freighters should be allowed to move is if someone hooks up pedals to the PC and they have to use that to move around at all. How in the hell did you come up with that rotten piece of offal as a logical deduction? There is no correlation at all between needing to actively fly a ship, rather than go watch Netflix while it autopilots, and requiring some asinine attachment to your PC to move a ship. Mike Voidstar wrote: It's not like they are fast, interesting, or all that fun to fly. Moving stuff around is fun, and I can see popping them as fun... But restoring the balance on moving them around is a real concern for some. Restore the balance? Near 100% safety when flying the ship properly isn't balanced enough for you? EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. I couldn't have said it better. Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
Hiasa Kite Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 336	Posted - 2015.11.19 05:17:51 - [399] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: Never said it was easy, I said it was possible. Reckon you can get a video of someone pulling that off? Because frankly, I don't believe you without proof. <^.^> I'm a cat lol
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 16983	Posted - 2015.11.19 05:18:08 - [400] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: You make it seem as if a pilot is doing something sinful if they autopilot at all. If they are carrying a multi billion isk cargo yes, its a very silly thing to be doing. Mike Voidstar wrote: By your logic the only way freighters should be allowed to move is if someone hooks up pedals to the PC and they have to use that to move around at all. What is wrong with having an escort of one ship to secure your travel? Mike Voidstar wrote: It's not like they are fast, interesting, or all that fun to fly. Moving stuff around is fun, and I can see popping them as fun... But restoring the balance on moving them around is a real concern for some. The balance is already heavily in favour of the hauling ship. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship

Zimmer Jones Aliastra Gallente Federation 359	Posted - 2015.11.19 05:43:24 - [401] - Quote My remark on freightergeddon was to point out that nothing will really stop the ganks. Even unprofitability, changes to bumping and further ehp buffer will do nothing. Freighters are garbage bags meant to be picked apart by scavengers. Bad mod ideas aside, this is about entitlement. Afk'ing is not a sin, but a in a freighter it is acomplete lack of situational wisdom. The 15km slowboat is(imo) there precisely to provide a window of opportunity for gankers, just like the agonizingly slow align times and warp speeds. Tbh, I would like ccp to treat freighters the way t3 cruisers are treated: die in one and lose associated skills. The loss of cargo and a potentialy uninsured ship are clearly not enough. Come to think of it, wouldn't it be great if freighter pilots started to auto destruct and eject to save their SP? Being disturbing is better than being boring.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 1998	Posted - 2015.11.19 10:53:40 - [402] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: You make it seem as if a pilot is doing something sinful if they autopilot at all. By your logic the only way freighters should be allowed to move is if someone hooks up pedals to the PC and they have to use that to move around at all. It's not like they are fast, interesting, or all that fun to fly. Moving stuff around is fun, and I can see popping them as fun... But restoring the balance on moving them around is a real concern for some. Autopilot is not a sinful, but nerfing ganking to the point that AFK hauling is the most efficient way to "play" the game is poor game design. If you want logistics to be safe, then just make them safe and remove the ability of gankers to attack haulers. But if you want hauling to be a profession, and logistics to matter, there has to be some risk of failing at the task so "good" haulers can be better at the job than "bad" haulers. To be honest, freighter hauling is already way too safe making it almost impossible for new players, or anyone not mostly AFKing a freighter, to make a competitive income as a hauler. Haulers get paid peanuts because as a profession it has been devalued by AFK freighter haulers taking most of the business and then going off to watch Netflix or doing something else out-of-game. The current ease of AFK hauling, mining, and ratting in this competitive PvP sandbox game is downright absurd. If there are any issues of "balance" CCP needs to address, it is in the parts of the game that provide benefits that do not scale with player effort or risk. They definitely do not need to buff AFK hauling by increasing the costs of suicide ganking. If a replacement is needed for bumping, it will not come in the form of more in-built, free protection for highsec freighters, but rather something the freighter pilot will actively have to do. There needs to be ways to reward, smart, conservative, and attentive haulers, while leaving the stupid, lazy, greedy and AFK ones to be culled by the wolves. Raising the cost of suicide ganking will just turn more of the first group of "good" haulers, into the second group of "bad" haulers.
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 1037	Posted - 2015.11.19 11:01:49 - [403] - Quote I think it's more a case that haulers stick to safer areas, as is proper. Your prey would ideally be the logistics headed out to supply null-sec, but those guys aren't the sort to fall for gankbear ambushes.
Kaarous Aldurald Black Hydra Consortium. 15106	Posted - 2015.11.19 11:37:42 - [404] - Quote I like the snide insinuation by the carebear that the only freighters that should ever die are the ones headed out of highsec. Meaning exactly zero of them, since people use jump freighters for that. Does he think his bullshit is fooling anyone here? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 1869	Posted - 2015.11.19 11:41:28 - [405] - Quote solve all problems....remove the autopilot button Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Hiasa Kite Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 341	Posted - 2015.11.19 11:57:48 - [406] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: I think it's more a case that haulers stick to safer areas, as is proper. Your prey would ideally be the logistics headed out to supply null-sec, but those guys aren't the sort to fall for gankbear ambushes. Freighters heading to (sov)null exist, but you will never, ever find them wondering alone, though HiSec (let alone leaving it) without considerable support. We're talking considerably more than a mere web friend. Quote: Though honestly it's not the afk gankbait that has my attention. No suggestion I have made or supported would affect autopiloted freighter ganks at all, with the rare exception of some white knight getting involved. If there was tackle that was only criminal the Afk freighter would still be afk and ganked. Looking through your history, the most recent suggestion you seem to be referring to is to disable bumping but introduce a special module that allows you to bump at the cost of being made suspect. The problem is that this idea does indeed buff AFK freighters. Specifically, I refer to the effect imposed by opportunistic PvPers. Not the carebears, not the white knights, but just random players that happen to spot a valuable ~450mil ISK faction battleship with a gimped tank (and in all likelihood a decent bounty which, for once would actually work as intended, so you've got that going for your idea, which is nice) that's free to shoot. Should any opportunistic player engage that Mach, there's no defence. The Mach, with its poor tank and total lack of support is easy prey. Do note that shooting a suspect only creates a limited engagement, the Mach's fleet mates can do nothing to support the Mach. Clarification from ye pirates that be: Would remote repping of a suspect ship confer suspect status to the relevant logi ship? Pretty sure it does in which case, yes, the Mach is definitely toast. <^.^> I'm a cat lol
Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 1869	Posted - 2015.11.19 12:34:04 - [407] - Quote jump freighters die quite often from null entities so i dont know where you get that from Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Kaarous Aldurald Black Hydra Consortium. 15108	Posted - 2015.11.19 13:11:35 - [408] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: jump freighters die quite often from null entities so i dont know where you get that from What they don't get though, is picked off at gatecamps by gankers. Their window of vulnerability is much, much smaller than freighters. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Asuka Solo Instant Annihilation Northern Army 3006	Posted - 2015.11.19 13:17:22 - [409] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Daret wrote: I'm not a very experienced pilot so It's very likely that I could be overlooking some glaring issues with this proposal, But I'm open to suggestions and tweaks. What you are missing is that this is not needed. Same can be said for bumping itself. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 1872	Posted - 2015.11.19 13:19:20 - [410] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Lan Wang wrote: jump freighters die quite often from null entities so i dont know where you get that from What they don't get though, is picked off at gatecamps by gankers. Their window of vulnerability is much, much smaller than freighters. how is their vulnerability much smaller? genuine question, they cant jump straight to jita so still have that trip from lowsec to trade hubs, but i guess the extra 7bil in cost is what gives it that invulnerability? Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|

Asuka Solo Instant Annihilation Northern Army 3006	Posted - 2015.11.19 13:19:48 - [411] - Quote Zimmer Jones wrote: Come to think of it, wouldn't it be great if freighter pilots started to auto destruct and eject to save their SP? Wouldn't it be great if gankers lost SP when concord ganked them? Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 1872	Posted - 2015.11.19 13:20:48 - [412] - Quote Asuka Solo wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Daret wrote: I'm not a very experienced pilot so It's very likely that I could be overlooking some glaring issues with this proposal, But I'm open to suggestions and tweaks. What you are missing is that this is not needed. Same can be said for bumping itself. bumping needs to stay its a legit tactic in all spaces will kill alot of pvp removing it Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Kaarous Aldurald Black Hydra Consortium. 15109	Posted - 2015.11.19 13:25:46 - [413] - Quote Asuka Solo wrote: Zimmer Jones wrote: Come to think of it, wouldn't it be great if freighter pilots started to auto destruct and eject to save their SP? Wouldn't it be great if gankers lost SP when concord ganked them? Unlike haulers(and every PvE playstyle for that matter), gankers already have numerous consequences attached to their playstyle. In fact they're pretty much the only playstyle that has mechanical consequences anymore, now that faction standings don't mean anything. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
admiral root Red Galaxy 3563	Posted - 2015.11.19 13:26:15 - [414] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Lan Wang wrote: jump freighters die quite often from null entities so i dont know where you get that from What they don't get though, is picked off at gatecamps by gankers. Their window of vulnerability is much, much smaller than freighters. how is their vulnerability much smaller? genuine question, they cant jump straight to jita so still have that trip from lowsec to trade hubs, but i guess the extra 7bil in cost is what gives it that invulnerability? Jump the freighter to the low/high border, then just wait for the undock to be clear before you web the JF into warp. My corp always had someone fly shotgun in a rapier all the way to the trade hub when we made supply runs. No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff CODE. forum - everyone's welcome (no shiptoasters)
Asuka Solo Instant Annihilation Northern Army 3006	Posted - 2015.11.19 13:28:24 - [415] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: Asuka Solo wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Daret wrote: I'm not a very experienced pilot so It's very likely that I could be overlooking some glaring issues with this proposal, But I'm open to suggestions and tweaks. What you are missing is that this is not needed. Same can be said for bumping itself. bumping needs to stay its a legit tactic in all spaces will kill alot of pvp removing it If you have to bump to PvP, your doing it wrong. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Kaarous Aldurald Black Hydra Consortium. 15110	Posted - 2015.11.19 13:30:20 - [416] - Quote Asuka Solo wrote: If you have to bump to PvP, your doing it wrong. I see someone's never been involved in capital ship combat. It's you who is doing it wrong. Arguing from a position of ignorance is always doing it wrong. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Asuka Solo Instant Annihilation Northern Army 3006	Posted - 2015.11.19 13:32:55 - [417] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Asuka Solo wrote: Zimmer Jones wrote: Come to think of it, wouldn't it be great if freighter pilots started to auto destruct and eject to save their SP? Wouldn't it be great if gankers lost SP when concord ganked them? Unlike haulers(and every PvE playstyle for that matter), gankers already have numerous consequences attached to their playstyle. In fact they're pretty much the only playstyle that has mechanical consequences anymore, now that faction standings don't mean anything. By all means, do share the consequences of ganking defenseless freighters outside of wardecs with super cheap destroyers in large groups, in a world where your negative 10 sec status doesn't prevent you from docking in hi-sec or hiding behind a POS until the opportune moment arrives to warp to your broskies for 20 seconds of risk free pvp. Regale the rest of us as to the impact it has on your assets and wallet by using a comparison to your victim's situation after the fact. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Asuka Solo Instant Annihilation Northern Army 3006	Posted - 2015.11.19 13:34:46 - [418] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Asuka Solo wrote: If you have to bump to PvP, your doing it wrong. I see someone's never been involved in capital ship combat. It's you who is doing it wrong. Arguing from a position of ignorance is always doing it wrong. Ignorance suits you. Argue away. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Kaarous Aldurald Black Hydra Consortium. 15114	Posted - 2015.11.19 13:37:22 - [419] - Quote Asuka Solo wrote: By all means, do share the consequences of ganking defenseless freighters outside of wardecs with super cheap destroyers in large groups, in a world where your negative 10 sec status doesn't prevent you from docking in hi-sec or hiding behind a POS until the opportune moment arrives to warp to your broskies for 20 seconds of risk free pvp. Why would I bother? Your head is so deep up the carebear narrative that you'll never see the light. If you called us not-sees, I'd have a bingo just on this one post. I mean, seriously, if you cried more in just that one paragraph, you'd give the Morton company a run for their money. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
admiral root Red Galaxy 3565	Posted - 2015.11.19 13:38:03 - [420] - Quote Asuka Solo wrote: If you have to bump to PvP, your doing it wrong. That's as silly as saying "if you have to shoot someone to PvP, *you're* doing it wrong". No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff CODE. forum - everyone's welcome (no shiptoasters)



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