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Star Fraction declares War on the Cyrene Initiative

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Kyoko Sakoda Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.10 07:16:00 - [91] I cannot see your dreams coming to fruition, considering throughout the recorded history of humankind, empires have risen and fallen but have always gotten back up. What is so special about now? Is it that we have put so much faith in cloning technology that we believe ourselves to be immortal? Is it because we float through space with more freedom than anyone else in the cluster? What are you really doing other than promoting the ascendency and superiority of the capsuleer caste (a group just as corrupt and responsible as any other), disregarding the fact that there is another 99.9999-something percent of the world to be considered. Save the Chimera, CCP!
GoGo Yubari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.10 08:18:00 - [92] While I sympathize with any attempts to delve deeper into the post-human condition, I find myself unable agree with the wider tenets of Star Fraction's ideology. The boundaries that define the have's and have-not's may be changing, but they are certainly not disappearing. The resources available to us are not limitless, nor will they become so. Social groups both large and small will rise to protect humans from themselves and to sa*uard their precious resources. The post-human condition may allow for radically different types of social groups, but the operations of what the Star Fraction occasionally calls the tyrant-meme will always be there. I believe the Star Fraction mistakes a moment of freedom found among themselves to be something that can be expanded without limit to everyone. Such states of almost transcendent existance are by their nature transitory, subject to the laws of entropy and the vagaries of conflict. Once lost they require effort to attain again. Sentient minds only ever find such situations in relation to others, for existance-with is a higher order than existance-without. Therefore social groups inevitably cluster around manifestations of such realizations. It is in the nature of these bodies to begin fortifying their positions once such a condition is achieved, but often the act of fortification itself ultimately eliminates the very thing they have decided to sa*uard. While the elite inside these societies may manage to retain the nature of their existance, others are inevitably shunned and either become segregated from the main or are forced to seek elsewhere. This is the way of social groups both large and small. The fact that we are practically near-immortal allows us to continue looking even as one mode of existance closes, whereas humanity before us was restricted by temporal matters in their search and thus often bound to tragedy.
Steiner Veto.	Posted - 2007.01.10 10:43:00 - [93] Another reason to hate SF. Always wonder how deep the hole they digging for them self is going to be. I hope sooner rather then later the world will turn against you and your contradicting ways and finally get rid of you once and for all. Bury you so deep that not even history will remember you. ---
Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.10 11:17:00 - [94] Originally by: Steiner Another reason to hate SF. Always wonder how deep the hole they digging for them self is going to be. I hope sooner rather then later the world will turn against you and your contradicting ways and finally get rid of you once and for all. Bury you so deep that not even history will remember you. We love you too.
Tecam Hund Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.10 11:32:00 - [95] Originally by: Steiner Another reason to hate SF. Always wonder how deep the hole they digging for them self is going to be. I hope sooner rather then later the world will turn against you and your contradicting ways and finally get rid of you once and for all. Bury you so deep that not even history will remember you. You can't kill an idea Steiner.
Tecam Hund Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.10 11:53:00 - [96] Edited by: Tecam Hund on 10/01/2007 11:51:56 Originally by: GoGo Yubari The resources available to us are not limitless, nor will they become so. Social groups both large and small will rise to protect humans from themselves and to sa*uard their precious resources. Space is limitless, and the universe is ever-expanding. As the number of spacefaring humans grows so will the number of known systems. Right now only a fraction of resources locked down and "sa*uarded" by 0.0 alliances are used. Which brings us to the point of their value and how one would try to protect the resources of higher value. Look at the current mineral market prices. Minerals like Zydrine and Megacyte are dropping increasingly lower while tritanium, pyerite and mexallon (wich are found in Empire space in surplus) nearly doubled in price. The reason I brought this up is, value of a resource is not only decided by amounts of it present in the universe, but also by its availability to the public. If the borders were opened the difference between 'owning' a field of bistot and mining widely spread veldspar would grow minimal considering logistical and security issues associated with 0.0 industry and mining. Obviosly tyrants will not give up their monopoly so easily, but that is why we exist.
Kaleigh Doyle Bloodveil The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2007.01.10 12:19:00 - [97] Originally by: Tecam Hund You can't kill an idea Steiner. Just the people, hm?
Steiner Veto.	Posted - 2007.01.10 12:58:00 - [98] Originally by: Kaleigh Doyle Originally by: Tecam Hund You can't kill an idea Steiner. Just the people, hm? Well.. if you kill everyone that has this ridiculous idea the idea will die. Will have to end in a suicide I guess. ---
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.10 13:15:00 - [99] Originally by: Steiner Originally by: Kaleigh Doyle Originally by: Tecam Hund You can't kill an idea Steiner. Just the people, hm? Well.. if you kill everyone that has this ridiculous idea the idea will die. Will have to end in a suicide I guess. Words from the peanut gallery don't really do much damage, except maybe to the brain.
Davlos Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.10 13:47:00 - [100] Originally by: Nekumi Words from the peanut gallery don't really do much damage, except maybe to the brain. I'm consistently seeing reactionary retorts from you in this entire forum instead of constructive counter-arguments, along with most of your colleagues. Is this a trend within the Fraction that we ought to be expecting? --------------- Davlos Cain 040
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.10 14:00:00 - [101] Originally by: Davlos Originally by: Nekumi Words from the peanut gallery don't really do much damage, except maybe to the brain. I'm consistently seeing reactionary retorts from you in this entire forum instead of constructive counter-arguments, along with most of your colleagues. Is this a trend within the Fraction that we ought to be expecting? Fine example of a constructive post there, Davlos. I post as I see fit. If you don't find what I say constructive, well what can I say, I don't care.
Rhizotoctonia	Posted - 2007.01.10 14:35:00 - [102] Edited by: Rhizotoctonia on 10/01/2007 14:32:38 Here's another chip in from the peanut gallery... I've been watching this drama develop with a mixture of cynicism and dismay. The two things that are clear to me are that (a) the Cyrene Initiative is not nearly the threat that Star Fraction makes them out to be, neither in promoting ideology or in terms of combat capabilities. This can be seen in their lack GalNet communications and war statistics. Observation (b) is related to the first one, the fact that Cyrene is a lot less powerful than previously made out - that is due in large part to the hype that certain Intaki Union pilots have been promoting. From the peanut gallery it looks very much like the Fraction pilots have been led up the garden path by pro-Intaki nationalists masquerading as freespacers. Intaki Union pilots are good fighters though û if you fancy a good scrap to clear the weeds in Placid and plough the ground for new visionaries to come to the front in Placid that do not kow-tow to the regressive memes of the Ida way; then perhaps you might like to consider lining them up in your sights.
Agustus Caesar Minmatar Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.01.10 15:09:00 - [103] Originally by: Tecam Hund You can't kill an idea Steiner. Maybe, but that doesn't seem to stop Star Fraction from trying though, does it? ----------------------------- Unless otherwise stated my opinions don't represent that of my corporation and/or alliance, but unless your retarded, that should go without saying
Tomahawk Bliss	Posted - 2007.01.10 15:51:00 - [104] Originally by: Rhizotoctonia Edited by: Rhizotoctonia on 10/01/2007 14:32:38 Here's another chip in from the peanut gallery... I've been watching this drama develop with a mixture of cynicism and dismay. The two things that are clear to me are that (a) the Cyrene Initiative is not nearly the threat that Star Fraction makes them out to be, neither in promoting ideology or in terms of combat capabilities. This can be seen in their lack GalNet communications and war statistics. Observation (b) is related to the first one, the fact that Cyrene is a lot less powerful than previously made out - that is due in large part to the hype that certain Intaki Union pilots have been promoting. From the peanut gallery it looks very much like the Fraction pilots have been led up the garden path by pro-Intaki nationalists masquerading as freespacers. Intaki Union pilots are good fighters though û if you fancy a good scrap to clear the weeds in Placid and plough the ground for new visionaries to come to the front in Placid that do not kow-tow to the regressive memes of the Ida way; then perhaps you might like to consider lining them up in your sights. I knew you were a clone jack of our enemies from the first time you tried to slander us you coward. Cyrene will die, if you would truly help them get in a ship and fight for them. this pathetic forum sniping is even weaker than Cyrene's obviosuly broken will. Gogo Yubari> You can't destroy your enemy with the power of thought alone like many forum-warriors seem to think.
Horatio Cain Caldari Rho Dynamics	Posted - 2007.01.10 18:16:00 - [105] Originally by: Nekumi If you don't find what I say constructive, well what can I say, I don't care. ...of course you do.
Able Citizen Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.10 18:31:00 - [106] Originally by: Nolin Riis Pirates roam freely, murdering civilians and capsuleers alike. Free-enterprising capsuleers. There are no civilians in space, my brother. Free-enterprising capsuleers who venture into the non-CONCORD protected realms must not be treated as subservient pets who need to be protected from bullies. They must themselves rise to meet the challenge to fend off those who would limit their ability to 'enterprise'.
Tatsue Nuko Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.10 18:50:00 - [107] Edited by: Tatsue Nuko on 10/01/2007 18:50:07 Let me put it like this, once and for all: If we, only for the sake of argument, assume that the Intaki Union has attempted to manipulate the Fraction to get us set against their enemies. If this is true, it was pretty pointless because the fate of Cyrene was decided well before the last shots were fired in Mito. People may think that Star Fraction is fickle and commits to campaigns on the spin of a coin, but then they are just deluding themselves. We have our plans made well in advance. On other notes, like Kyoko's worry about those people not currently "eligible" for the posthumanist revolution through inability to integrate with a capsule, well... Two points: 1) Do you really expect that order to always remain so? Is there some law of the universe (as opposed to the laws and realities of the empires that govern said people) that specifies the relationship of human population and it's descendants? OR, is it a variable entirely dependant on what we do with our technologies, how well we develop them and their use, and how effectively we tear down the structures that oppose the future? However, this is a typical feeble straw-man defense of the reactionary against the post-humanist ideal - "It'll never happen because right now only... ... ..." Assuming that the fact of today will remain the fact of tomorrow is stupidity, and the first sign of a culture approaching the stagnation where it's development makes it's constitueties so complacent with what they have that further development becomes impossible. And when development is impossible, stagnation will be a fact. 2) Those who point at Star Fraction and say "not everyone can be like that for reason X" are not only lacking in imagination - they are even criminally so! The notion that our at best transhuman mode of existance in an environment of baseline humanity revelling in a status quo is the only way to achieve posthumanity is silly and woefully unimaginative. If you think the only way to the future is o be strapped up in an egg - explain to me: why? We exploit the possibilities on the road to posthuman existance offered by the capsule not because it would be the only possibility, but because it is the possibility offered to us, specifically. EDIT: Oh, and for the religious people out there - the so-called "afterlife" is not a post-human existance, it's a post-mortem existance. Join the revolution, babeh!
Tecam Hund Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.10 19:03:00 - [108] Originally by: Agustus Caesar Originally by: Tecam Hund You can't kill an idea Steiner. Maybe, but that doesn't seem to stop Star Fraction from trying though, does it? We do not kill ideas - we change minds, however ridiculous it might seem to some shortsighted people. Ideology of The Star Fraction is a natural evolution of human species. So, replying at the same time to Mr Steiner, if you want to kill everyone who carries our idea with them you would have to kill yourself as well. We all have a potential to evolve, the key is to free your mind.
Steiner Veto.	Posted - 2007.01.10 19:28:00 - [109] Originally by: Tecam Hund We do not kill ideas - we change minds, however ridiculous it might seem to some shortsighted people. Ideology of The Star Fraction is a natural evolution of human species. So, replying at the same time to Mr Steiner, if you want to kill everyone who carries our idea with them you would have to kill yourself as well. We all have a potential to evolve, the key is to free your mind. If the ideal is a natural evolution of the human species why are you intervening with it? It all takes time and there is nothing you can do about it so leave people to there own business and watch the evolution. So in this short sighted war you are killing people to change there minds? Sounds like ******* to virginity to me. ---
Tecam Hund Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.10 19:38:00 - [110] Originally by: Steiner Originally by: Tecam Hund We do not kill ideas - we change minds, however ridiculous it might seem to some shortsighted people. Ideology of The Star Fraction is a natural evolution of human species. So, replying at the same time to Mr Steiner, if you want to kill everyone who carries our idea with them you would have to kill yourself as well. We all have a potential to evolve, the key is to free your mind. If the ideal is a natural evolution of the human species why are you intervening with it? It all takes time and there is nothing you can do about it so leave people to there own business and watch the evolution. So in this short sighted war you are killing people to change there minds? Sounds like ******* to virginity to me. I look at it as speeding up the evolution. Showing that what we believe in is actually possible. As for leaving people to their own business. Aren't you a pirate and a mercenary? Killing for monetary gain in the name of whoever pays the most is your business, so you have no room to talk here. And yes, from my point of view, we fight our 'shortsighted' wars to change minds.
Steiner Veto.	Posted - 2007.01.10 19:59:00 - [111] Originally by: Tecam Hund I look at it as speeding up the evolution. Showing that what we believe in is actually possible. As for leaving people to their own business. Aren't you a pirate and a mercenary? Killing for monetary gain in the name of whoever pays the most is your business, so you have no room to talk here. And yes, from my point of view, we fight our 'shortsighted' wars to change minds. Speeding up evolution by killing people doesn't sound right, I think the people need to be alive to be able to evolve but I guess thats just my short sightedness? You are telling me that I have no place here while you are forcing your ideals on someone else, you are like the Amarrians driving a righteous crusade to subjugate everyone that stands in the way of your "ideal" under the cover that you are doing the world a favor. You are nothing better then a sick serial killer that carefully picks his victims and then escapes his own hanging by using fancy words to say that he was doing it in name of peace. I see a lot of resamplence with the old federation and Star Fraction. (No offense meant to the Amarrians.) And yes ISK is my believe but thats non of your business because I keep it to my self. ---
Kyoko Sakoda Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.10 19:59:00 - [112] No, Tatsue. It's cynicism - for your motives as well as those of others. I don't believe humanity can get much better, and here's another reason why: I'm of the opinion that you are either oblivious to or ignore the very things that allow you to survive... I'm sorry, live eternally (outside of time itself, too?), as a capsuleer. You have quite an imagination, which is something I would normally respect, but you also don't have a foot in reality. What did you call people that weren't capsuleers yet? Was it "laggards"? Quite a condescending attitude. Reality is that there are thousands of people working to make your life better, and making sure you keep living. Break the supports by giving everyone some new transhuman existence and as it stands everything that props you up will fall over. But that's a problem because it is a necessary step on the way to posthumanism, right? You've hit a stumbling block and you've barely seen the light at the end of the posthumanism tunnel. Maybe the capsule isn't the future, but you have, at least in the past, certainly made it out to be the near future. I think your preception of accelerating technological progress only reflects the differences in how well individuals and societies remember recent advances as opposed to past ones. Was capsuleer and cloning technology more important than the invention of fire? Whose to say that this progress hasn't reached a sort of plateau? Save the Chimera, CCP!
Tecam Hund Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.10 20:07:00 - [113] Originally by: Steiner Speeding up evolution by killing people doesn't sound right, I think the people need to be alive to be able to evolve but I guess thats just my short sightedness? You are telling me that I have no place here while you are forcing your ideals on someone else, you are like the Amarrians driving a righteous crusade to subjugate everyone that stands in the way of your "ideal" under the cover that you are doing the world a favor. You are nothing better then a sick serial killer that carefully picks his victims and then escapes his own hanging by using fancy words to say that he was doing it in name of peace. I see a lot of resamplence with the old federation and Star Fraction. (No offense meant to the Amarrians.) And yes ISK is my believe but thats non of your business because I keep it to my self. This is an evolution of mind we are talking about. Not just of a single person, but of humanity (transhumanity, posthumanity whichever you like better). A few deaths on the way to the goal is the price we are willing to pay. Besides, the real focus is on capsuleers, who of course don't die in the process. I merely told you that you have no place to judge us for interfereing with other people's busines due to the nature of your own profession. We also do not force our views on others. We present them with an argument - the war. What happens next is up to them.
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.10 20:10:00 - [114] Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 10/01/2007 20:08:12 Originally by: Steiner You are nothing better then a sick serial killer that carefully picks his victims and then escapes his own hanging by using fancy words to say that he was doing it in name of peace. I see a lot of resamplence with the old federation and Star Fraction. So we've got to the point of the discussion where the bloody-handed piratico-merc corp operative calls us sick serial killers because we kill for an ideology rather than simple sociopathic tendencies or pure isk have we? The truth is Steiner: we scare you to death. And you hate what you fear. All other words and arguments you contrive are pointless camoflage. We've seen your soul and its quaking in its boots at the mere suggestion that you and your ilk are no longer at the top of the food chain in the current environment. No bully likes to see the playground majority growing up (and arming itself with warships and tech2 weaponry). But you are going to have to find a way to live with it. Star Fraction is recruiting
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.10 20:18:00 - [115] Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda No, Tatsue. It's cynicism - for your motives as well as those of others. I don't believe humanity can get much better, and here's another reason why: The discussion is moot. You fear the future and rationalise reasons why it will never come to change the status quo you cling to. You hate your current existence and you loathe yourself - hence its natural for you to hate the technology that made you what you are and would otherwise promise new avenues for you to embrace and explore. Take a look in the mirror Kyoko Sakoda - its not posthumanity you should be hating its your own choice to become a souless butcher without cause or ideology. You are no different from any other money-soldier turned bandit facing a crisis of conscience and turning to cynical self-loathing as a salve for your self pity at this point. Face up to your own shortcomings internally before projecting the bitterness of your heart onto the wider world and the futures we dare to dream. Star Fraction is recruiting
Kyoko Sakoda Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.10 23:39:00 - [116] Yeah, there are times I've questioned my becoming a PC pilot. The world we encounter in space is vastly different than the world we experience planetside. Nostalgia is what it is. But it's silly that you mention I must hate myself. I don't know how that could be possible especially when I'm in love with your own Nemesor right now. What I have is a bit of a trust issue. I don't put enough faith in humanity to entrust the lot of it with realizing your dream. This is about looking to the future without being blind to the past. By the way, I do have a cause. It is however, culture-specific, and I'm taking baby steps with it, rather than knocking people over the head with a blunt object, hoping they will understand me afterwards. Save the Chimera, CCP!
Lucius Lefebvre Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.11 01:16:00 - [117] I have an itch that won't go away. Initially, my adjutant thought I might need a change of pod fluid until I explained that it was more of a metaphorical itch. It worsens each time Galnet flicks over these broadcasts from Placid; each time I suspect that the Star Fraction has perhaps jumped through one conceptual gate too many. I worry that it's some reactionary corner of my subconscious quietly polluting my rationale; that's why I find some of their more condescending comments so hurtful, I think. They mean all of us - I, too, must harbour regressive memes, even though I want the same thing, don't I? How did I get left behind, I wonder? What freespace epiphany visited them and not I? When did I fail to forego that hidebound kinship with humanity - even the mewling, baseline underclass? I think back to my first encounters with JF theorizing. I was entranced by their ideas, by their seeming purity and easy geometry. Now the shapes seem less distinct, edges overlapping, become less coherent. Do they still spring from the same source? But it's just an itch, ill-defined. When JF fought tyranny on the frontiers, they did so in a context of capsules, crew and vacuum. They looked noble and sounded more so. They fought enclosurism where the only things enclosed were space, stones and a few precious station wallahs and the lines were clear. Now, they return to Empire and a vastly different milieu; the rocks and the space between are the same, but the rocks are teeming with life - the so called baseline majority. These infants are to be handed the future on a plate of morphite at the cost of only a few million crewmembers. They'll witness the nobility and sheer Tlan of the revolution orbiting their worlds and shrug off their Federal shackles to embrace a post-political nirvana. Similarly, they'll shrug off the apparently overwhelming force of countless capsular privateers, each looking to carve a fiefdom with atomics in the ensuing tumult because (r)evolution will out (or is that (r)eugenics and - scarily - is that why Amarr have so far escaped revolutionary wrath?). Any perceived inability to resist such incursions will be overmatched by their grasp of destiny as willed to them by a handful of (only marginally better equipped) visionaries. Certainly, a few billions may perish, but to build a better future one must break a few planets. It is the price we are willing to pay, after all. Of course, anyone suspecting insincerity in the above is surely in the clutches of a regressive, popular-totalitarian meme. I ask myself, Is it true? Are you? I find myself worrying that some Fractionites have taken to shouting down advocates of statism, rather than demonstrating how anarchy will better benefit the masses. A picture is painted of alternate paths to posthumanity, but the paths themselves remain ill-drawn. A society of self-interested individuals may function, where it remains in the interests of each to neither aggress nor be aggressed, but can such rules apply where mortals and gods inhabit the same plane? The Star Fraction, of course, remains a collective of sorts. Whilst not desirable, it must do so out of expediency. Similarly, the Federation, that bloated, illusively-democratic collective of trillions is expedient - and not just for those who would maintain the lie of democracy, but also for those who would see the frangible baseliner fed until she, too, is able to attain the heights. Though the potential for a belligerent Federal polity is well illustrated by history - even as Star Fraction insists on looking to the future - the multitude of Gallente pilots flying beyond Federal auspices demonstrates how such lessons cannot be universally applied. Whilst critical thought may not be actively encouraged by Gallente spectacle, it isn't exactly outlawed either. [cont...]
Lucius Lefebvre Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.11 01:18:00 - [118] [cont... ] By contrast, I wince at the Fractionite who, faced with criticism, repudiates the critic as unworthy, or else flashes her hardware. Where is the rigour in that, when one has a platform to refute argument with elegance? And that thing about a gate too many? Well, this isn't it (that's the real itch), but when I see Caldari and Amarr (too readily dismissed as imperialist proxies) sniping against the aggressor in tacit support of a Gallente paramilitary corporation, I fear that, though Star Fraction may win this war of men and materiel, this particular battle of ideas cannot be won. I fear that it will prove counterproductive, likely to produce at best a sullen, dutiful surrender - one merely phrased in the requisite forms rather than a thing of substance. The argument becomes less persuasive when bombast replaces finesse and a grudging defeat is no acceptance and, personally, I remain unconvinced by truisms regarding publicity.
Devilish Ledoux Caldari eXin Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.11 02:43:00 - [119] You make a very valid point. It may not be enough to simply show how the Old Ways are bad, or to insist that those who hold to the Old Ways will either bend or be broken. Perhaps it is better to instead focus on how pursuing New Way would be better. Of course, a fair bit of breaking is inevitable and not entirely undesirable. If the weakness of the Old Ways aren't exposed, then the New Way will have no fertile soil in which to prosper. _ Do Unto Others.
icewind4 Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.11 10:49:00 - [120] I think after some very exhaustive use of my library card I see valid arguments on both sides of the fence. The simple truth is that in this day and age the only way to promote your ideas with any credibility is by having bigger guns than the other politician. In the grand scheme of things this war isnÆt hugely significant for anyone other than CYI, IU and SF - I would much rather hear of CYIÆs views and resolve to defend their position than more circular arguments unless you have something to say that hasnÆt been said on numerous occasions.

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