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Why do ccp give in to mission runners lobby?

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Benglada Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.01.09 23:41:00 - [1] Edited by: Benglada on 09/01/2007 23:37:29 It seems to me that everytime mission runners whine about something they get it. Case in point: Probing a mission. Why should probing a mission be any less difficult then probing a safespot? Why should them doing a mission give them some magical near invulnurability? If they fail to use the scanner to see if someones scanning them, that is THEIR problem. When im at a safespot 95% of the time im aligned and mash the scan button like a psychopath and, because of this, i rarely die. I think mission runners should have to do the same thing, it is low sec after all, is it not? For the record i have only probed down two mission runners in my life time, but id like the option to do it now because its incredibly annoying having people in low sec in ravens pretty well un touchable. --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends. Sig By Ortos
Mi Lai Sanguine Legion	Posted - 2007.01.09 23:53:00 - [2] Regardless of the term Massive Multiplayer Game, a lot, if not most of the cash is raked in by people that treat the game as a Massively Shared Single Player Game. Any game company that fails to cater to the single players will miss out on the revenue needed to sustain the servers. I'm not happy about the changes in probing down mission runners - made a few billion in loot for the corp in the weeks after Kali deployment, but I'm glad EVE offers a (though limmited) single player experience. Not all are lucky enough to start out the game with a bunch of excellent guys like I have, and unlike WoW for instance, it's a lot more difficult to find people to gang up with in EVE, cause of the lethal nature and value of trusting people.
Desiderious Gallente Catalyst Reaction Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.09 23:59:00 - [3] Edited by: Desiderious on 09/01/2007 23:56:18 The first question is a hypothetical question - reason? - game mechanics. The reason that it gives them 'invulnurability' is because they are already fighting very tough mobs. Its not like a belt where you have 5 battleships max. In missions your often going up against much tougher things that require more of your attention. You are true about the scanner thing. It is their problem but it may be a little difficult to do that while simultaneously doing a difficult level 4 mission. When your at a safespot your not doing anything other than mayby looking at local and scanning. Hell I get a blue screen every once in a while if I get a lag spike (scan). The thing is sometimes your warpscrambled. Also some ships require you to be at a certain distance to do damage, thus you cant always be alligned. Also picking up the loot and going to the next area also require you to not be alligned. It is frusterating. But if poeple are so blind to the danger than you should get them 3% of the time. Doesnt sound glamerous but its something. Besides you have to keep in mind they do risk a little by simply bringing the ship to low sec and doing the missions. ----------------------------- Oink ^OO^ Your sig is too large. Please resize it so that it fits within 400x120. -Conuion Meow ([email protected])
Mondo Banana Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.10 00:10:00 - [4] Perhaps you should just get a barrel and fill it with fish. That sounds about right for your skill level. If you want an "I WIN" button there's always more room over at WoW....
Benglada Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.01.10 00:10:00 - [5] Edited by: Benglada on 10/01/2007 00:07:20 Originally by: Desiderious Edited by: Desiderious on 09/01/2007 23:56:18 The first question is a hypothetical question - reason? - game mechanics. The reason that it gives them 'invulnurability' is because they are already fighting very tough mobs. Its not like a belt where you have 5 battleships max. In missions your often going up against much tougher things that require more of your attention. You are true about the scanner thing. It is their problem but it may be a little difficult to do that while simultaneously doing a difficult level 4 mission. When your at a safespot your not doing anything other than mayby looking at local and scanning. Hell I get a blue screen every once in a while if I get a lag spike (scan). The thing is sometimes your warpscrambled. Also some ships require you to be at a certain distance to do damage, thus you cant always be alligned. Also picking up the loot and going to the next area also require you to not be alligned. It is frusterating. But if poeple are so blind to the danger than you should get them 3% of the time. Doesnt sound glamerous but its something. Besides you have to keep in mind they do risk a little by simply bringing the ship to low sec and doing the missions. And this is different then what EVERYONE else does how? Fine. When i engage something on a gate i want someone attacking me to have a 3% chance to fail lock. Reason being because the person im attacking potentially does more then 15 npc battleships counting the fact i cant tank all damage types. Hell, When seiging a POS i want enemy fleets warping in to have a 10% chance of "not succesfully warping to the pos" Because the POS is significantly more dangerous then a belt rat. Im obviously being sarcastic but i think it shows the flaws in your argument quite well. Doing a level 4 mission in low sec is now a 1,000 times less dangerous then belt ratting. I also know for a fact that level 4 mission runners are usually about 40km from the gate where you jump in. Due to the fact you cannot use a mwd in deadspace this gives them a healthy time to get out. People only died due to lack of attention. You think i would belt rat with a pirate in system? hell no. Why would you do a mission with a pirate in local? --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends. Sig By Ortos
Portios Smith Sanguine Legion	Posted - 2007.01.10 00:14:00 - [6] Edited by: Portios Smith on 10/01/2007 00:10:59 Yea, MC and BWL are hard enugh with out us gankers doing our thing Instanced space ftl Sig removed does not contain your name, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus
The Armin Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.10 00:15:00 - [7] Thing is, most of em resides in npc corps, hence u can't war dec em. Thats #1 invulnerability shield. #2 is to run an alt with shuttle to lowsec and drop off mods in the system u do mission in.. invulnerable.. can't do em without dictor bubbles, and if u do, they log.. so they are invulnerable both in losec and 0.0 #3 is shipping their main mission running ship throu the lowsec pipe, w/o mods since u already shipped them.. fills low with stabs.. usually.. with alt scout = invulnerable.. #4 Station -> Deadspace.. only place where u can catch em is station.. all they have to do is redock.. and u have 3% chance to find em i kinda call that invulnerable (97%) so mission runners have it good..
Portios Smith Sanguine Legion	Posted - 2007.01.10 00:17:00 - [8] Originally by: Mondo Banana Perhaps you should just get a barrel and fill it with fish. That sounds about right for your skill level. If you want an "I WIN" button there's always more room over at WoW.... Based on what you are defendig the one making WoW reservations should be you, I am sure there is a 40 man raid waiting for you in private instance land. Sig removed does not contain your name, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus
Stakhanov Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.01.10 00:18:00 - [9] I agree , the combined changes give a ridiculous situation. They have been offered 99% safe lowsec missions , just use an insta-undock bookmark , warp to acceleration gate , and insta-dock whenever you have to. Unless you have squads of bumping battleships and a small army of covops scanning for those precious few seconds when the runner is at the acceleration gate , your chances of finding (much less catching) him are negligible. It's even more worrying when you think about the exploration sites. Belts and complexes only accessible by those who like to sit for hours on end probing. It used to be accepted as normal that Eve is a game ruled by PvP , now pirates are supposed to grind to initiate combat.
Enders Vaal Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.10 00:35:00 - [10] So... I'm sure if you're in 0.0 you have other things to worry about than some guy running missions. Seriously, why get your panties in a twist over this --- "You are without doubt the worst pirate I've ever heard of." "...but you have heard of me." [green]Please resize imag
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.01.10 00:45:00 - [11] Why don't you whine (yea whine) in another of the many topics on the subject. Probing mission runners was so easy immediately post patch that we couldn't even keep up with our cov ops. We'd kill a ship and the next would be ready for us. It was a feeding frenzy, unsustainable and bad for the game in the short, medium and long term. Frankly, if you can't see past your own POV on this then I'm disappointed.
Benglada Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.01.10 00:47:00 - [12] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Why don't you whine (yea whine) in another of the many topics on the subject. Probing mission runners was so easy immediately post patch that we couldn't even keep up with our cov ops. We'd kill a ship and the next would be ready for us. It was a feeding frenzy, unsustainable and bad for the game in the short, medium and long term. Frankly, if you can't see past your own POV on this then I'm disappointed. The only reason that happened is missioners tend to be quite brainless, and dont watch local. --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends. Sig By Ortos
Mondo Banana Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.10 01:18:00 - [13] So like I said, you expect a never-ending supply of brainless targets that can be found and dispatched with the mighty IWIN button. And like I said there is lots of room for you over at WoW where you won't have to try so hard and strain your poor brain.
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.01.10 01:21:00 - [14] Originally by: Benglada Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Why don't you whine (yea whine) in another of the many topics on the subject. Probing mission runners was so easy immediately post patch that we couldn't even keep up with our cov ops. We'd kill a ship and the next would be ready for us. It was a feeding frenzy, unsustainable and bad for the game in the short, medium and long term. Frankly, if you can't see past your own POV on this then I'm disappointed. The only reason that happened is missioners tend to be quite brainless, and dont watch local. As opposed to some forum posters who are quite brainless because they fail to recognise there are at least two sides to consider when balancing something,
The Armin Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.10 02:07:00 - [15] Edited by: The Armin on 10/01/2007 02:05:33 I think the thing with lowsec is.. A corp or alliance should _fight_ to get access to the best agents.. They should put scouts out in all directions.. Known pirates and competitors should be wardecced out of the area. When you've done that, you're safe to mission run. In my opinion, low sec should never be as secure as it is today. Creating outposts in lowsec and allowing lvl4q20 agents to move to these outposts when the executors corp has 8.0 corp standing to a faction would probably fix it, but I'm not sure I'd like to see that :/ Would probably be awesome for the rp'ers though. But it isn't like that. You don't have to fight for your isk/area as everyone but the traders, you're completely invulnerable unless someone wins the deadspace scanning lotto, and y'all go nuts once someone suggest a change to missions. Meh, I'm fed up with missions runner. I'd be happy to see all lvl4/5 agents moved to losec but you'd whine the forums broken, prolly.
Benglada Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.01.10 02:13:00 - [16] Originally by: Mondo Banana So like I said, you expect a never-ending supply of brainless targets that can be found and dispatched with the mighty IWIN button. And like I said there is lots of room for you over at WoW where you won't have to try so hard and strain your poor brain. I want mission runners to be at the same risk as ratters, And i want mission running to require a small amount of brains. Like i said, Iv only done this twice before, as it is mission running in low sec has zero hazard. --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends. Sig By Ortos
Laing Candu OCForums	Posted - 2007.01.10 02:37:00 - [17] Yeah, low sec should defintely be made less attractive to NPCers because there are way too many people there as it is!
Amanty	Posted - 2007.01.10 03:17:00 - [18] Quote: I want mission runners to be at the same risk as ratters, And i want mission running to require a small amount of brains. How does it feel to want? I am just so glad that when I run a mission I can just sit there and stare at the monitor mindlessly while drooling... /sarcasm off I want Pirates to stop bellyaching about the fact that everything is not handed to them on a silver platter every time. Think thats going to happen any time soon? CCP does a pretty good job of balancing the wants and needs of all the different styles of play in the game. Just because they dont give you everything that you want does not mean that they are not doing a good job.
Benglada Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.01.10 03:26:00 - [19] I think we need a neutral partys point of view, im a pirate your a carebear. --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends. Sig By Ortos
ArtemisEntreri Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.10 04:08:00 - [20] Originally by: Benglada I think we need a neutral partys point of view, im a pirate your a carebear. I say, old system. It was hard. It took loads of time. You needed experience. Most people had no idea how to do it. ...But it wasn't chance based
Levin Milraco	Posted - 2007.01.10 04:18:00 - [21] hurry!!! call the WAAAAAAAAAAbulance.... seriously, you guys missed one thing: failing a mission (say, lvl 4... storyline.) can kill the missioner's standings. (something like 3.0 to 5.0 faction standing loss for the really important storylines. and those usually have an objective that needed to be returned that can be stolen by us =P...) even failing other missions (normal, lvl 4) do hurt them quite a bit. worst now ever since they made it so you lose both faction and corp standings for failing. if standings arent such a ***** to gain, it would have been fine, but for a casual player, they can potentially lose 4 to 5 months of standing. and that would be game breaking for alot of people. how would you like it if you cant shoot at another player for 4 to 5 months if you get killed once? or better yet... sp loss?... there is no insurance for standing btw... hence the current system is okay... since when it 1st came out, it only take 5 minutes to find them. if they keep it that way, people will no longer do missions in low sec. (unless they are REALLY insane or stupid..) since it pretty much certain death before the nerf. (yeah yeah, the whole watch local crap... try doing that when you have tons of npc ships with the dmg output of capitals hitting ya... you have to be VERY VERY super aware of everything/highstrung to do that.) and there was an exodus to high sec during that week for low sec mission runners. but yeah, atm, is okay, is hard to find them, but if you do find them, they are screwed big time... Personally, I would prefer the old scanning system where you need 3 probes to triangulate for the target. atleast in that system, it takes skills and dedication. and not every kiddie can drop afew probes to find someone, (and whine when they cant...the older system is better in that they only have their skill to blame, not a game mechanic. )
Ethan Tomlinson The Collective	Posted - 2007.01.10 04:22:00 - [22] why do you guys who run missions in low sec think you should have it any easier than the rest of us npc'ing in a belt in 0.0? It should be perfectly normal to be able to scan for us and warp to npc'ers in a belt as it should be to probe down someone who is running a deadspace mission in low sec or 0.0 this really is a sandbox game which means its not like wow and that npc'ing is not the main objective of the game. please get off your high horse and if u dont want to be handed over to pirates on a silver platter try watching local or joining a corp with some sort of combat force and mission when pirates arn't around
Levin Milraco	Posted - 2007.01.10 04:29:00 - [23] Originally by: Ethan Tomlinson why do you guys who run missions in low sec think you should have it any easier than the rest of us npc'ing in a belt in 0.0? It should be perfectly normal to be able to scan for us and warp to npc'ers in a belt as it should be to probe down someone who is running a deadspace mission in low sec or 0.0 this really is a sandbox game which means its not like wow and that npc'ing is not the main objective of the game. please get off your high horse and if u dont want to be handed over to pirates on a silver platter try watching local or joining a corp with some sort of combat force and mission when pirates arn't around For the record, I been pirate, mission runner, miner, manufacturer and trader...just before anyone calls me whatever... once again, you didnt see the whole picture, short verison to explain things: -npcer in a belt being killed = Ship lost, needing to buy a new clone. Insurance gets you a new ship (if T1) ... Clone dont cost that much. Time lost: not alot of time. -Missioner in mission being killed/griefed = Ship lost, needing to buy a new clone, AND standing loss. Insurance gets you a new ship (if T1) ... Clone dont cost that much. but STANDINGS takes weeks to months to grind. (yes, watching standings goes up 0.05 for every 16 mission takes awhile for people who only play 2 hrs a day..) hence the difference. (personally, doing missions in low sec is asking for a royal screwing. so my solution is, People who cant afford to lose standings/isk/whatever stay away from low sec.... but then some ppl will complain about lack of targets...)
Levin Milraco	Posted - 2007.01.10 04:29:00 - [24] Originally by: Ethan Tomlinson why do you guys who run missions in low sec think you should have it any easier than the rest of us npc'ing in a belt in 0.0? It should be perfectly normal to be able to scan for us and warp to npc'ers in a belt as it should be to probe down someone who is running a deadspace mission in low sec or 0.0 this really is a sandbox game which means its not like wow and that npc'ing is not the main objective of the game. please get off your high horse and if u dont want to be handed over to pirates on a silver platter try watching local or joining a corp with some sort of combat force and mission when pirates arn't around For the record, I been pirate, mission runner, miner, manufacturer and trader...just before anyone calls me whatever... once again, you didnt see the whole picture, short verison to explain things: -npcer in a belt being killed = Ship lost, needing to buy a new clone. Insurance gets you a new ship (if T1) ... Clone dont cost that much. Time lost: not alot of time. -Missioner in mission being killed/griefed = Ship lost, needing to buy a new clone, AND standing loss. Insurance gets you a new ship (if T1) ... Clone dont cost that much. but STANDINGS takes weeks to months to grind. (yes, watching standings goes up 0.05 for every 16 mission takes awhile for people who only play 2 hrs a day..) hence the difference. (personally, doing missions in low sec is asking for a royal screwing. so my solution is, People who cant afford to lose standings/isk/whatever stay away from low sec.... but then some ppl will complain about lack of targets...)
Levin Milraco	Posted - 2007.01.10 04:29:00 - [25] Originally by: Ethan Tomlinson why do you guys who run missions in low sec think you should have it any easier than the rest of us npc'ing in a belt in 0.0? It should be perfectly normal to be able to scan for us and warp to npc'ers in a belt as it should be to probe down someone who is running a deadspace mission in low sec or 0.0 this really is a sandbox game which means its not like wow and that npc'ing is not the main objective of the game. please get off your high horse and if u dont want to be handed over to pirates on a silver platter try watching local or joining a corp with some sort of combat force and mission when pirates arn't around For the record, I been pirate, mission runner, miner, manufacturer and trader...just before anyone calls me whatever... once again, you didnt see the whole picture, short verison to explain things: -npcer in a belt being killed = Ship lost, needing to buy a new clone. Insurance gets you a new ship (if T1) ... Clone dont cost that much. Time lost: not alot of time. -Missioner in mission being killed/griefed = Ship lost, needing to buy a new clone, AND standing loss. Insurance gets you a new ship (if T1) ... Clone dont cost that much. but STANDINGS takes weeks to months to grind. (yes, watching standings goes up 0.05 for every 16 mission takes awhile for people who only play 2 hrs a day..) hence the difference. (personally, doing missions in low sec is asking for a royal screwing. so my solution is, People who cant afford to lose standings/isk/whatever stay away from low sec.... but then some ppl will complain about lack of targets...)
ArtemisEntreri Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.10 04:42:00 - [26] Originally by: Levin Milraco Originally by: Ethan Tomlinson why do you guys who run missions in low sec think you should have it any easier than the rest of us npc'ing in a belt in 0.0? It should be perfectly normal to be able to scan for us and warp to npc'ers in a belt as it should be to probe down someone who is running a deadspace mission in low sec or 0.0 this really is a sandbox game which means its not like wow and that npc'ing is not the main objective of the game. please get off your high horse and if u dont want to be handed over to pirates on a silver platter try watching local or joining a corp with some sort of combat force and mission when pirates arn't around For the record, I been pirate, mission runner, miner, manufacturer and trader...just before anyone calls me whatever... once again, you didnt see the whole picture, short verison to explain things: -npcer in a belt being killed = Ship lost, needing to buy a new clone. Insurance gets you a new ship (if T1) ... Clone dont cost that much. Time lost: not alot of time. -Missioner in mission being killed/griefed = Ship lost, needing to buy a new clone, AND standing loss. Insurance gets you a new ship (if T1) ... Clone dont cost that much. but STANDINGS takes weeks to months to grind. (yes, watching standings goes up 0.05 for every 16 mission takes awhile for people who only play 2 hrs a day..) hence the difference. (personally, doing missions in low sec is asking for a royal screwing. so my solution is, People who cant afford to lose standings/isk/whatever stay away from low sec.... but then some ppl will complain about lack of targets...) How does being killed make your mission auto-fail? Get another ship and finish the mission and get a friend to fend off the pirates.
ArtemisEntreri Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.10 04:42:00 - [27] Originally by: Levin Milraco Originally by: Ethan Tomlinson why do you guys who run missions in low sec think you should have it any easier than the rest of us npc'ing in a belt in 0.0? It should be perfectly normal to be able to scan for us and warp to npc'ers in a belt as it should be to probe down someone who is running a deadspace mission in low sec or 0.0 this really is a sandbox game which means its not like wow and that npc'ing is not the main objective of the game. please get off your high horse and if u dont want to be handed over to pirates on a silver platter try watching local or joining a corp with some sort of combat force and mission when pirates arn't around For the record, I been pirate, mission runner, miner, manufacturer and trader...just before anyone calls me whatever... once again, you didnt see the whole picture, short verison to explain things: -npcer in a belt being killed = Ship lost, needing to buy a new clone. Insurance gets you a new ship (if T1) ... Clone dont cost that much. Time lost: not alot of time. -Missioner in mission being killed/griefed = Ship lost, needing to buy a new clone, AND standing loss. Insurance gets you a new ship (if T1) ... Clone dont cost that much. but STANDINGS takes weeks to months to grind. (yes, watching standings goes up 0.05 for every 16 mission takes awhile for people who only play 2 hrs a day..) hence the difference. (personally, doing missions in low sec is asking for a royal screwing. so my solution is, People who cant afford to lose standings/isk/whatever stay away from low sec.... but then some ppl will complain about lack of targets...) How does being killed make your mission auto-fail? Get another ship and finish the mission and get a friend to fend off the pirates.
Levin Milraco	Posted - 2007.01.10 04:56:00 - [28] Originally by: ArtemisEntreri How does being killed make your mission auto-fail? Get another ship and finish the mission and get a friend to fend off the pirates. very very evil Grin not all missions are like that...BUT... Well, you see, for alot of missions, there is an item that drop that has to be returned to the agent for completion. now, if that item is destoryed/stolen by me/pirate. the mission CANNOT be completed. he has to a) take a standing hit and fail the mission or b) leave it open till it expires for a heavier standing hit... if its a ordinary kill mission, yes, he can come back to finish it.. but all it takes is one of the lvl 4 fetch/return missions to be messed up to sent the person back to grinding lvl 2/low quality lvl 3s again.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.01.10 05:14:00 - [29] Ratting in 0.0 is safer than running missions in low-sec.
Benglada Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.01.10 05:19:00 - [30] Originally by: Levin Milraco hurry!!! failing a mission (say, lvl 4... storyline.) can kill the missioner's standings. Call the WAAAAAAAAAAAmbulance. Quote: if they keep it that way, people will no longer do missions in low sec. (unless they are REALLY insane or stupid..) Or smart enough to read local and wait 10 minutes for them to leave? --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends. Sig By Ortos
Levin Milraco	Posted - 2007.01.10 06:13:00 - [31] Edited by: Levin Milraco on 10/01/2007 06:10:37 care to comment on the other points I made? (aside, watching local etc?... cause that doesnt work, it just makes less targets for you when people just gets fed up and not bother with low sec anymore. ) quite frankly, the loss of being killed npcing or doing anything in low sec is minor compared to the time lost of losing standings. edit: But now, I propose: that we go back to the old system for probing! as the privateer that posted. its much better than this chanced system we have now. I am sure the OP can agree with a 100% system that requires work and skills.
Zardenim	Posted - 2007.01.10 06:21:00 - [32] The only things I've ever killed have been in belts, and that's really all I care for. If someone I'm chasing had the smarts to create a SS before I got to them then good for them, I couldn't be bothered to chase after them. However if someone else has the skills/ship/modules/patience to do that, then that's great for them, and they should be allowed to do so. As for missions, same as above. They are taking a risk by entering lowsec for something that they in their mind has greater reward than that risk (the all knowing risk-reward equation). However, just because they don't see or don't acknowledge the risk doesn't mean they should be invulnerable to it. As with nearly all of the high-paying professions in eve, lowsec mission running needs its risks to be a balanced part of the game. If they don't feel safe then let them bring a buddy or two along with them, that's their choice. It's the carebear population's turn to adapt this time. (That being said, they comprise a majority of the game population and as such CCP is pretty much obligated to give into their demands no matter how pathetic those demanding the changes can be.)
Levin Milraco	Posted - 2007.01.10 06:30:00 - [33] Originally by: Gonada what it all comes down to is it really realistic that one guy running a lvl 4 mission with 2 bill isk worth of mods gets his arse wiped by a lamer geek ganker/ ganker squad in his / their cheapo setup(s)? um, no, it should be hard to scan em down. deal with it. never knew you "tough" ganker types cried so much. hey, dont lump me in with them. but how would you think of the old system, the probes work 100% BUT, you need to place 3 of them to scan the area in btwn the 3.
Yokai Milanis	Posted - 2007.01.10 06:43:00 - [34] I agree that both mission runners shouldn't be invincible in a pew pew zone. Most players know that lowsec is the most dagerous areas of the game. I think 0.0 should be the most dangerous area. Maybe a nice counter balance would be to make a Concord Spawn that's not invincible come to the defense of players in lowsec. This concord spawn would not be a concordoken, and a .05 would be weaker than a .01 Concord defense spawn. Honestly I think this would be a lot more fun for the carebear and the piwat. And of course you would take sec status hits for killing concord, and get bonus status towards pirate factions. Maybe the pirates would have put bounties on Concords heads. This I would think would also help to populate lowesec more.
Zardenim	Posted - 2007.01.10 06:57:00 - [35] Originally by: Gonada what it all comes down to is it really realistic that one guy running a lvl 4 mission with 2 bill isk worth of mods gets his arse wiped by a lamer geek ganker/ ganker squad in his / their cheapo setup(s)? um, no, it should be hard to scan em down. deal with it. never knew you "tough" ganker types cried so much. Someone running a mission with 2bil in mods should wipe the floor with the "lamer geek"'s ass. It's not called lowsec for no reason you know. It's designed to be dangerous and lawless, so let it stay that way. Carebears were given hisec so they could live without constant fear of pirates/pvpers, and pirates/pvpers were given lowsec so they could play the game to their own more explosive liking. This is really a disgusting safe beach head into lowsec the more and more I look at it. How would the hisec population like it if there was a 50% chance Concord wouldn't do a thing in .5 and .6 systems when a pirate attacked? And when they did it was very slow and uncoordinated so the pirate could get away. I'd imagine they'd be in uproar.
Shugo Kazuma	Posted - 2007.01.10 07:34:00 - [36] Originally by: Benglada I want mission runners to be at the same risk as ratters, And i want mission running to require a small amount of brains. While I can agree the balance pendulum may have swung back too far, if you want them to be at the same level of risk as a belter, you'd better be prepared to advocate making missions more comparable to belting then. It's all dandy and everything to say you want them to have the same level of risk (and possibly the same ease of finding?), but there's a slight difference between a belter tanking 2-5 ships when a pirate shows up in system and a mission runner tanking 15-40. It probably wouldn't be a big deal if CCP's idea of making missions harder was to use a few powerful ships instead of throwing wave upon wave of weaker ships at you.
DeckardIRL Gallente Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.10 10:52:00 - [37] Clearly the OP has never run a lvl4 mission eg- Angels Xtra, Serp Xtra, Midst of Deadspace, Mordus Headhunters... the aggro on these levels is enough to keep any pilot occupied. I mission when I am not in 0.0 in an area that the piewat Corp Turbulent operate. This is a very good crew of pirating scum. After Kali you couldn't mission at all. They had a field day. I was sitting docked and saw 8 jump into local. I put out a warning in local. A numpty who was not watching local and within 5 mins Turby posted a CNR kill mail. They said thanks we got our daily kill and left.... now the guy could have been in the middle of massive aggro and missed the warning. But the kill was so fast he had no chance unless he was transiting between gates to be able to read local. I have died in missions because you are so busy with NPCs that in the seconds it took to react to the piewats and try and get out I was scrambed by an inty... aint no fun as its usually an NPC gets the final blow, so take on the pirates and fight the NPCs.... yeah that's fun.... what you should be asking for is more missions set out of system of the agent so there is more mission runner traffic... but you are a numpty yourself and don't deserve to get fat easy targets like that. Deck _____________________________________________ Watchin' the Game.... Havin' a Bud.... I shoot better on Bud..... Eve Info- All you need to know
Damien Smith Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.10 13:07:00 - [38] Originally by: DeckardIRL I mission when I am not in 0.0 in an area that the piewat Corp Turbulent operate. This is a very good crew of pirating scum. After Kali you couldn't mission at all. They had a field day. Deck <3 you too Deck It's true, while the post-kali probe system was unbelievably screwed, we still used it because hell, pirates got to eat too right? Probing became a job for alts that day. Probing is no longer a profession, it's a skillpoint based grind of spamming the scan button and hoping your magical dice rolls you a double six. The old system was far more balanced, as I'm sure Deckard will agree. We use to probe missioners with the old system, but at least then it was fun, and we failed often because the target finished up or noticed us before we got them properly triangulated enough to warp in. I'll even go as far as saying probing used to be exciting. Now it's just depressing... Oh well, I've got covops 5, astrometrics 5, signal pinpointing 4, astrometric pinpointing 4 and I'm about 4 days away from astrometrics triangulation 5. At least my imaginary dice are somewhat shiny... ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
AlphaM Doom Guard	Posted - 2007.01.10 13:46:00 - [39] the difference to me is that a pvper can change safes at a moments notice and move between them, a mission runner is a sitting duck in his safe
Ja'kar MAFIA	Posted - 2007.01.10 13:59:00 - [40] HELLO!!! It's not hte mission runner being able to be caught at mission point that is the main fault- WARP 0 is the main problem, used to get them on the 15k to gate/station. yes loads had bm's so glad CCP removed BM's made eve hardcore or at least risky, er, well no cos now everyone hos insta bm's. So get rid of tis warp 0 crpa that makes eve intoa wow in space, just little bit harder. and then more mission runners will die. and for gods sake, kick ppl out of NPC corp aftera set time, force them into a 1 man corp... eve is suck's its getting worse...
Peter Stuyvesant Amarr	Posted - 2007.01.10 14:14:00 - [41] After Kali, it was too easy to probe mission-runners out, now its a bit too hard. But to suggest that CCP always give into the demands of mission-runners is cretinous.
Nore Auratis	Posted - 2007.01.10 14:15:00 - [42] Noob's point of view from someone not really sure about his "career" in EVE. Correct me if something is wrong. --- Running missions in low-sec basically means: you get better rewards for the same job. Mission difficulty does not vary, right? If probing mission runners in deadspace is nearly impossible, the only risk involved is jumping into a camp when travelling to/from your agent (or being shot at when docking/undocking, what happened only once to me so far). But as already mentioned, there are many possibilities to minimize this risk (I should use more of them, personally ^^). Let's compare this to ratting: Ratting in low sec means: you get better rewards for (nearly) the same job. But: It is more risky. Of course you can minimize this risk too, e.g. by warping to a safe spot when someone posing a possible threat enters local or shows at the scanner. But this is time-consuming and lowers your income in terms of ISK/h. In my opinion mission running in low sec should be more dangerous. If it were so, I would - not use my best ship/fitting, fearing to lose it, which would make the mission more difficult - possibly use a jump clone, which has certain requirements/restrictions - not fly solo all the time, and if I only brought a friend to watch local And: It would make me feel less secure, that's what low-sec should be about. I found it quite strange flying some stupid mission semi-AFK with a gate camp just a few AUs away in the same system ... Greetings Nore
sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.01.10 14:28:00 - [43] I completely agree with the OP, regardless of what the missioners might lose if they can't complete their mission, they should be fully scannable. A miner risk everything possible to the maximun extent that mining permits (ship, clone, minerals, mods), a pirate risk the same, a trader also risks the same. Just because a missioners also risks all, including losing status with a faction which i agree it's a heavy penalty, is not reason enough to protect them in a field of invulnerability from other players. _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>
Hellspawn01 Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.01.10 14:51:00 - [44] Originally by: Benglada It seems to me that everytime mission runners whine about something they get it. Case in point: Probing a mission. Not true. Things did change in the past in favor of combat and made mission runners suffer. Originally by: Benglada Why should probing a mission be any less difficult then probing a safespot? A safespot is player generated, mission spots system generated. Originally by: Benglada Why should them doing a mission give them some magical near invulnurability? If they fail to use the scanner to see if someones scanning them, that is THEIR problem. Having scanner open which takes some of your view while fighting a dozen ships at once, managing drones in the meantime, watching ship stats and having lag from scanner reload? Originally by: Benglada When im at a safespot 95% of the time im aligned and mash the scan button like a psychopath and, because of this, i rarely die. I think mission runners should have to do the same thing, it is low sec after all, is it not? Nothing is there but you and your scanner that takes your attention. Originally by: Benglada For the record i have only probed down two mission runners in my life time, but id like the option to do it now because its incredibly annoying having people in low sec in ravens pretty well un touchable. They are not. They have to dock/undock and jump in/out sometimes. Take a friend with your with perfect scanning skills and you will find them. So many ways to get them, find them. Ship lovers click here
Exlegion Legion's Knight	Posted - 2007.01.10 14:57:00 - [45] Signed/ Mission runners should be easy kills for the gankbears. And then when they go back to high sec gankbears should whine to CCP to force them back to low sec so the gankbears can continue to rake up easy kills. And then Eve will be balanced. And carebears, stop being so lazy. Just because you may be tanking 20+ NPCS, being warp-scrambled, managing your ship resources like drones and shields, picking out and shooting at NPC's, shouldn't mean that you can't scan evey few seconds. After all, gankbears aren't lazy, they spam the scan button when they're at a safe spot. And we all know it's all the same. Anyway, please CCP, gankbears need easy kills so their epeens can grow , and it's not because they're lazy. plzkthxbye.
Damien Smith Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.10 16:17:00 - [46] Originally by: Hellspawn01 They are not. They have to dock/undock and jump in/out sometimes. Take a friend with your with perfect scanning skills and you will find them. So many ways to get them, find them. Warp to 0, undock invulnerability timer, spitout bookmarks. With these anyone travelling to and from a station is completely invulnerable to attack, no matter how many ships may be camping the station. That just leaves the gates, which is a completely different discussion altogether. The thing that gets me about all this though, is that many pirates do the same things the carebears do, like mission running, bringing haulers full of goodies through low sec chokepoints (with alts, admittedly) and things like that. You know how many pirates or their alts die while performing these tasks? Not bloody many, that's for sure. Most pirates get proficient with the scanner, watch local religiously, use the map filters to spot obvious gatecamps and get scouts to check each jump before jumping in the valuable stuff. You think our ships appear in our hangar by magic? If we do hauler or freighter runs, you can be damn sure that we'll have scouts, armed escorts, and be very aware of the locations of potential threats in nearby systems and have people on alert to defend the cargo or provide time enough for it to flee. When mission running the pirate mission runners I know spam their scanners, as it can mean the difference between getting some much needed isk, or getting ganked by other pirates. Carebears are just too damn lazy... ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
Dixon Caldari Hells Donkeys	Posted - 2007.01.10 16:32:00 - [47] I'm having no trouble scanning mission runners, it rarely takes me over 6 minutes. Although I found it very hard when the changes first came... but, hey, adapting is a huge part of the game. My only beef with missions are those new '120km between warp-gates' missions. Those really make mission runners hard to catch, although scanning them is just as easy. - - - - - - Originally by: Ath Amon as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...
Tiny Tove	Posted - 2007.01.10 16:37:00 - [48] Sounds to me like it's the gankbears that are lazy, they just want a "Warp to nearest pve fitted carebear" button. And even then they'll find something to whine about. Waaaaah! Every time I see a carebear I kill it, and now I don't see any carebears, I don't get it.... waaaah! They adapted. Why don't you?
FooB2 Caldari Pre-nerfed Tactics	Posted - 2007.01.10 16:43:00 - [49] did they adapt? or did they whine until CCP adapted for them........ hmm. TEAM LULZ FOR HIRE
Tiny Tove	Posted - 2007.01.10 16:44:00 - [50] Only gankbears cannot understand why carebears avoid all contact with them. Blame CCP, if that's what you need to feel better about it.
Damien Smith Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.10 16:45:00 - [51] Originally by: Tiny Tove They adapted. Why don't you? They didn't adapt, they had the game adapted to suit them. I personally hated the post-kali super easy probing almost as much as I hate the current spam 20+ scan attempts but get a result eventually system we have now. Pirates have adapted, and always will do. Many pirates, including myself came to this very forum to whine about the post-kali system. It was too easy and made probing something that even a noob could do with near 100% accuracy. The 'bears whined, and we whined. It was 'fixed'. The problem still isn't fixed though, it definitely needs tweaking but where some of the pirates fought for the system to be made more difficult, where are the carebears whining about the current system being too balanced in their favour? Like I said. Lazy. I still get mission runner kills by probing, it's that now it's a grind, instead of a profession. ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
Dixon Caldari Hells Donkeys	Posted - 2007.01.10 16:49:00 - [52] Originally by: Damien Smith I still get mission runner kills by probing, it's that now it's a grind, instead of a profession. Are you sure you're using the right probes for the job? I rarely need to analyze twice. - - - - - - Originally by: Ath Amon as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...
Damien Smith Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.10 17:03:00 - [53] Originally by: Dixon Originally by: Damien Smith I still get mission runner kills by probing, it's that now it's a grind, instead of a profession. Are you sure you're using the right probes for the job? I rarely need to analyze twice. Ok so I exaggerated slightly. The point I was making is that it's now chance based and is therefore based on skillpoints and random luck, rather than player skill. Still though, WTB: Scan probes that find a specific mission runner in deadspace with <4 scans guaranteed. Mission runners are rarely within 5au probe range of the system plane, which means using fathom and bigger, with strength penalties the further up you go. I have lots of pre made bookmarks of various heights above and below plane in the most common mission running systems, where I lay a field of overlapping probes (spook and smaller) and spam, spam, spam that scan button away. Even with covops and astrometrics 5, and signal acquisition/astrometric pinpointing/astrometric triangulation 4 it can take a good few scans to get things like command ships and hacs. ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
Damien Smith Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.10 17:03:00 - [54] Originally by: Dixon Originally by: Damien Smith I still get mission runner kills by probing, it's that now it's a grind, instead of a profession. Are you sure you're using the right probes for the job? I rarely need to analyze twice. Ok so I exaggerated slightly. The point I was making is that it's now chance based and is therefore based on skillpoints and random luck, rather than player skill. Still though, WTB: Scan probes that find a specific mission runner in deadspace with <4 scans guaranteed. Mission runners are rarely within 5au probe range of the system plane, which means using fathom and bigger, with strength penalties the further up you go. I have lots of pre made bookmarks of various heights above and below plane in the most common mission running systems, where I lay a field of overlapping probes (spook and smaller) and spam, spam, spam that scan button away. Even with covops and astrometrics 5, and signal acquisition/astrometric pinpointing/astrometric triangulation 4 it can take a good few scans to get things like command ships and hacs. ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
Greenbolt	Posted - 2007.01.10 17:07:00 - [55] Ok. Im gonna respond to this one. First. I run missions in low -sec. I pvp sometimes.. the one time my missiongot busted...the ship that did it died because I had friends nearby who ganged quickly warped in and slaughtered. (Bad luck on the guy busting my mission because I had just finished off the last npcs.) That outta the way. First comment - watch local for pirates? Bah. Useless Most mission scanners I ran into used alts or neutrals in friendly looking corps. They sat in local somewhere probing out...once they got a hit...the pirates who were one or two systems out would warp in then warp to mission-attack ...or use login trap once a hit was found to do same. In many cases the actual probing ship was never seen. You would have maybe 30-40 seconds warning between pirates hitting local and pirates in your deadspace. In a tough L4 mission. Thats not enough time if your engulfed hard by mass of npcs. Most L4 mission areas in low spec are fairly busy...so everytime a new person shows up everyone quits mission running would be only response...(and yes we kept people watching for probes right after kali to warn when someone was probing...)...which was very tedious. Moving on... CCP pendulum ..they made it way to easy after kali to scan out mission runners. then they made it too hard. maybe on the next swing..it will balance out. (You should have a chance to find me. it should not be easy at all. I respected old system pre kali alot). Moving on. As a mission runner I do not use rare T2 mods or Faction mods. If you catch me in a mission..and im tanking hard. even a decent cruiser/battlecruiser setup with some nos will be enough to break my tank. In some missions even the expensive ships are reaching near that point.....so a smart PVP group will almos always beat a mission runner because he is so specialized to the NPCs he is fighting. the mission runners tank will be useless if you bring the right ammo/nos/scrambler. Most importantly. CCP wants to make money. A number of pilots I enjoy mission running. Just like a number enjoy mining and manufacturing. Just as some only like pvp. You cater completely to one group..say just the pvp crowd and ignore the rest. guess what. They quit. CCP makes less money. CCP's goal is to make every one happy. Do they succeed of course not. They like everyone swing to extremes in reaction sometime. But I truly respect them for making a game that attracts all crowds. My point? I am spammy. Its a game that draws all types of players...and needs all types of players to exist. You dont like it...Go play Battlefield or some other first person shooter. Wows too good for you. (And no i dont play wow)
Greenbolt	Posted - 2007.01.10 17:07:00 - [56] Ok. Im gonna respond to this one. First. I run missions in low -sec. I pvp sometimes.. the one time my missiongot busted...the ship that did it died because I had friends nearby who ganged quickly warped in and slaughtered. (Bad luck on the guy busting my mission because I had just finished off the last npcs.) That outta the way. First comment - watch local for pirates? Bah. Useless Most mission scanners I ran into used alts or neutrals in friendly looking corps. They sat in local somewhere probing out...once they got a hit...the pirates who were one or two systems out would warp in then warp to mission-attack ...or use login trap once a hit was found to do same. In many cases the actual probing ship was never seen. You would have maybe 30-40 seconds warning between pirates hitting local and pirates in your deadspace. In a tough L4 mission. Thats not enough time if your engulfed hard by mass of npcs. Most L4 mission areas in low spec are fairly busy...so everytime a new person shows up everyone quits mission running would be only response...(and yes we kept people watching for probes right after kali to warn when someone was probing...)...which was very tedious. Moving on... CCP pendulum ..they made it way to easy after kali to scan out mission runners. then they made it too hard. maybe on the next swing..it will balance out. (You should have a chance to find me. it should not be easy at all. I respected old system pre kali alot). Moving on. As a mission runner I do not use rare T2 mods or Faction mods. If you catch me in a mission..and im tanking hard. even a decent cruiser/battlecruiser setup with some nos will be enough to break my tank. In some missions even the expensive ships are reaching near that point.....so a smart PVP group will almos always beat a mission runner because he is so specialized to the NPCs he is fighting. the mission runners tank will be useless if you bring the right ammo/nos/scrambler. Most importantly. CCP wants to make money. A number of pilots I enjoy mission running. Just like a number enjoy mining and manufacturing. Just as some only like pvp. You cater completely to one group..say just the pvp crowd and ignore the rest. guess what. They quit. CCP makes less money. CCP's goal is to make every one happy. Do they succeed of course not. They like everyone swing to extremes in reaction sometime. But I truly respect them for making a game that attracts all crowds. My point? I am spammy. Its a game that draws all types of players...and needs all types of players to exist. You dont like it...Go play Battlefield or some other first person shooter. Wows too good for you. (And no i dont play wow)
Dixon Caldari Hells Donkeys	Posted - 2007.01.10 17:09:00 - [57] Originally by: Damien Smith Mission runners are rarely within 5au probe range of the system plane, which means using fathom and bigger, with strength penalties the further up you go. I have lots of pre made bookmarks of various heights above and below plane in the most common mission running systems, where I lay a field of overlapping probes (spook and smaller) and spam, spam, spam that scan button away. Even with covops and astrometrics 5, and signal acquisition/astrometric pinpointing/astrometric triangulation 4 it can take a good few scans to get things like command ships and hacs. Ah, it seems you are missing a neat lil' trick... - - - - - - Originally by: Ath Amon as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...
Dixon Caldari Hells Donkeys	Posted - 2007.01.10 17:09:00 - [58] Originally by: Damien Smith Mission runners are rarely within 5au probe range of the system plane, which means using fathom and bigger, with strength penalties the further up you go. I have lots of pre made bookmarks of various heights above and below plane in the most common mission running systems, where I lay a field of overlapping probes (spook and smaller) and spam, spam, spam that scan button away. Even with covops and astrometrics 5, and signal acquisition/astrometric pinpointing/astrometric triangulation 4 it can take a good few scans to get things like command ships and hacs. Ah, it seems you are missing a neat lil' trick... - - - - - - Originally by: Ath Amon as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...
Exlegion Legion's Knight	Posted - 2007.01.10 17:16:00 - [59] Originally by: FooB2 did they adapt? or did they whine until CCP adapted for them........ hmm. Gankbears slash their own throats. They can't see past easy kills. If CCP would have left things the way they were immediately post-Kali, then gankers would have complained about a lack of targets in low sec. They don't want more PVP. They want easy kills so they can feel all tough inside. Low sec missioners are already at a huge disadvantage in low sec: PVP setup =! PVE setup And anyone that suggests some kind of half-ass PVP/PVE setup hasn't run L4 missions for profit lately. 0.0 rats =! Mission rats It's easier to scan while tanking 3-5 rats than it is while tanking 20+ rats. So to say "it's easy to scan... Missioners are just lazy" is ridiculous. Mining in 0.0/low sec =! Missioning in low sec When I mine in low sec, first thing I do is align for a quick warp at the first sign of danger. I don't have that versatiliy while missioning. But honestly, all this "trying to reason" with these types of gankbears is a lost case. The only reason that makes sense to them is that of a mother telling her 4-your-old kid "Because I said so!". After all, empire dwellers bring home the bacon to CCP . Exlegion
Exlegion Legion's Knight	Posted - 2007.01.10 17:16:00 - [60] Edited by: Exlegion on 10/01/2007 17:27:51 Edited by: Exlegion on 10/01/2007 17:26:25 Originally by: FooB2 did they adapt? or did they whine until CCP adapted for them........ hmm. Gankbears slash their own throats. They can't see past easy kills. If CCP would have left things the way they were immediately post-Kali, then gankers would have complained about a lack of targets in low sec. They don't want more PVP. They want easy kills so they can feel all tough inside. Low sec missioners are already at a huge disadvantage in low sec: PVP setup =! PVE setup And anyone that suggests some kind of half-ass PVP/PVE setup hasn't run L4 missions for profit lately. 0.0 rats =! Mission rats It's easier to scan while tanking 3-5 rats than it is while tanking 20+ rats. So to say "it's easy to scan... Missioners are just lazy" is ridiculous. Mining in 0.0/low sec =! Missioning in low sec When I mine in low sec, first thing I do is align for a quick warp at the first sign of danger. I don't have that versatiliy while missioning. But honestly, all this "trying to reason" with these types of gankbears is a lost case. The only reason that makes sense to them is that of a mother telling her 4-year-old kid "Because I said so!". After all, empire dwellers bring home that extra lean and more expensive bacon to CCP . Exlegion
Damien Smith Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.10 18:08:00 - [61] Originally by: Dixon Originally by: Damien Smith Mission runners are rarely within 5au probe range of the system plane, which means using fathom and bigger, with strength penalties the further up you go. I have lots of pre made bookmarks of various heights above and below plane in the most common mission running systems, where I lay a field of overlapping probes (spook and smaller) and spam, spam, spam that scan button away. Even with covops and astrometrics 5, and signal acquisition/astrometric pinpointing/astrometric triangulation 4 it can take a good few scans to get things like command ships and hacs. Ah, it seems you are missing a neat lil' trick... If you mean scanning for drones, I already do (scan for ships and drones on the same scan). If not, I'm all ears. Send me an eve-mail so we can keep it to ourselves. ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
Skeenee Al'Ramed	Posted - 2007.01.10 20:30:00 - [62] Agree with OP. It's pure favoritism! They are the only person in low sec not running into ANY risks.. it's not even low sec for them! They get ALL The rewards with no extra risks (compared to high sec) IMHO, only high sec missions should not be probable, to avoid griefing; but missions in low sec, should have a fair probability of succesful probing. To the carebears saying that it will decrease low sec population even more, I answer "Whoooo gives a shi,t we can't touch you anyway. Good riddance if you leave low sec"
Bardi MecAuldnis Amarr Pirates of Destruction Union	Posted - 2007.01.10 21:36:00 - [63] Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 10/01/2007 17:27:51 Edited by: Exlegion on 10/01/2007 17:26:25 Originally by: FooB2 did they adapt? or did they whine until CCP adapted for them........ hmm. Gankbears slash their own throats. They can't see past easy kills. If CCP would have left things the way they were immediately post-Kali, then gankers would have complained about a lack of targets in low sec. They don't want more PVP. They want easy kills so they can feel all tough inside. The funny thing is that the "gankbears" were asking CCP to change the probe system after Kali made it too easy. We recognized it was unfair and asked for it to change alongside all the "end-of-the-world" carebears. That's the difference. We recognize when something is ridiculously in our favor. Carebears can't see past their own wallets. --- Hey hey let's go kenka suru! Taisetsuna mono protect my balls! Boku ga warui so lets fighting! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!!
Karlemgne The Black Fleet	Posted - 2007.01.10 21:45:00 - [64] Originally by: Mondo Banana Perhaps you should just get a barrel and fill it with fish. That sounds about right for your skill level. If you want an "I WIN" button there's always more room over at WoW.... I don't want an "I win" button. I'd like mission runners, who chose to come to low sec, to actually risk something, like the rest of us do. -Karlemgne
Exlegion Legion's Knight	Posted - 2007.01.10 21:46:00 - [65] Originally by: Bardi MecAuldnis Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 10/01/2007 17:27:51 Edited by: Exlegion on 10/01/2007 17:26:25 Originally by: FooB2 did they adapt? or did they whine until CCP adapted for them........ hmm. Gankbears slash their own throats. They can't see past easy kills. If CCP would have left things the way they were immediately post-Kali, then gankers would have complained about a lack of targets in low sec. They don't want more PVP. They want easy kills so they can feel all tough inside. The funny thing is that the "gankbears" were asking CCP to change the probe system after Kali made it too easy. We recognized it was unfair and asked for it to change alongside all the "end-of-the-world" carebears. That's the difference. We recognize when something is ridiculously in our favor. Carebears can't see past their own wallets. You may be one of the few exceptions that thinks further than just the easy low-sec gank-a-thon fest. Here's the OP: Quote: Case in point: Probing a mission. Why should probing a mission be any less difficult then probing a safespot? Why should them doing a mission give them some magical near invulnurability? If they fail to use the scanner to see if someones scanning them, that is THEIR problem. When im at a safespot 95% of the time im aligned and mash the scan button like a psychopath and, because of this, i rarely die. I think mission runners should have to do the same thing, it is low sec after all, is it not? For the record i have only probed down two mission runners in my life time, but id like the option to do it now because its incredibly annoying having people in low sec in ravens pretty well un touchable. (See highlighted) The OP seems to think that it is the same to safespot as it is to run missions. The OP believes that scanning a missioner should be as easy as probing a safe spot. Can you see why this can lead to inbalances in the game? Exlegion
OldPueblo Gallente The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2007.01.10 22:01:00 - [66] Edited by: OldPueblo on 10/01/2007 21:58:47 Boohoo, go run missions too then. And it's actually quite easy to catch people on the other side of a gate and kill them while in PVE setup still.
Soporo	Posted - 2007.01.10 22:05:00 - [67] Quote: The funny thing is that the "gankbears" were asking CCP to change the probe system after Kali made it too easy. We recognized it was unfair and asked for it to change alongside all the "end-of-the-world" carebears. I dont know about you personally, but I suspect a lot of those reasons for most was more along the lines of "holy shi*, where tf did everyone go?!" "damnit, lowsec is a damn ghost town!, nerf Empire missions!!!!" "well, hell no one comes here anymore, maybe the scan is just a TAD too easy, a TAD mind you!"
Karlemgne The Black Fleet	Posted - 2007.01.11 03:04:00 - [68] Originally by: OldPueblo Edited by: OldPueblo on 10/01/2007 21:58:47 Boohoo, go run missions too then. And it's actually quite easy to catch people on the other side of a gate and kill them while in PVE setup still. I don't want to run missions. Its boring as f*** if you ask me. However, spoken like a true mission runner, "I want my easy cash, so don't complain." -Karl
Gix Firebrand Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.01.11 05:34:00 - [69] Man.. it makes me sad to see so many of my fellow pirates whine like little girls :( You got several options. One, if it bothers you that much vote with your wallet and quit. Two, get better at scanning and camping the warp in point. Three, stop crying. Four, rally for increased low sec profit to make it worth the risk. Personally I think low sec needs to be more profitable to justify the hungry pirates that live in them, myself included. Move all but veld, plaig and pyro into low sec. Remove the omber in the lvl 3 mission. Make some other tweaks, and we'll be all good. But until then you got those options above. Or I guess you could still whine.
Dane Hur Caldari Bloody Needles	Posted - 2007.01.11 06:04:00 - [70] Its hard to find missionrunners, otherwise there would be no missionrunners in lowsec, right after the patch, I stopped running missions in low sec, any pirat with half a brain could scan out 3-4 missions in the system in less then 5 minutes. When they added the reconprobe launcher, I could probe out a mission so fast I would allmost be at the mission before the missionrunner. It was truely an I win button, I knew what damage they would tanking and could fit accordingly.
OldPueblo Gallente The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2007.01.11 06:24:00 - [71] Edited by: OldPueblo on 11/01/2007 06:21:51 Originally by: Karlemgne Originally by: OldPueblo Edited by: OldPueblo on 10/01/2007 21:58:47 Boohoo, go run missions too then. And it's actually quite easy to catch people on the other side of a gate and kill them while in PVE setup still. I don't want to run missions. Its boring as f*** if you ask me. However, spoken like a true mission runner, "I want my easy cash, so don't complain." -Karl You don't know anything about me Captain Assumption. And once again, its still quite easy to catch PVE-fitted ships coming through a gate. Unless you're bad at it. Not running missions is your choice, but thankfully you don't get to choose how everyone gets to play. Sounds like its time to work for your kills. PS - Locking ships that aren't looking for a fight and aren't setup to PVP is harder then missions? Talk about easy cash.
Neon Genesis Gallente Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.01.11 07:09:00 - [72] Edited by: Neon Genesis on 11/01/2007 07:06:47 Originally by: Mondo Banana Perhaps you should just get a barrel and fill it with fish. That sounds about right for your skill level. If you want an "I WIN" button there's always more room over at WoW.... Please stop using the phrase every post. Also, you are looking at this post from one side and not even considering the other. You say Benglada wants to shoot fish in a barrel, well why do mission runners get near complete invulnerability while running missions in low sec. It's completely setup so mission runners have this instant safety while pirates have to work very hard to break it. Heaven forbid mission runners should have to setup for various situations.
Desiderious Gallente Catalyst Reaction Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.11 07:12:00 - [73] Originally by: OldPueblo Edited by: OldPueblo on 11/01/2007 06:21:51 Originally by: Karlemgne Originally by: OldPueblo Edited by: OldPueblo on 10/01/2007 21:58:47 Boohoo, go run missions too then. And it's actually quite easy to catch people on the other side of a gate and kill them while in PVE setup still. I don't want to run missions. Its boring as f*** if you ask me. However, spoken like a true mission runner, "I want my easy cash, so don't complain." -Karl You don't know anything about me Captain Assumption. And once again, its still quite easy to catch PVE-fitted ships coming through a gate. Unless you're bad at it. Not running missions is your choice, but thankfully you don't get to choose how everyone gets to play. Sounds like its time to work for your kills. PS - Locking ships that aren't looking for a fight and aren't setup to PVP is harder then missions? Talk about easy cash. I think this is actually a good arguement. In any other situation you can be set up for whats coming. However in a mission your setup is dictated. If you want to try to get through 0.0, you can fit a very fast, stabbed out ship. In missions you cant do that. Also adding a WCS or nano would be pointless and wasteful in missions. Also a lot of mission setups arent even useful for PVP. IE-My Domi setup w/ 3 nos's and the other 3 for looting...Yah... Also keep in mind your resists are also fixed. ----------------------------- Oink ^OO^ Your sig is too large. Please resize it so that it fits within 400x120. -Conuion Meow ([email protected])
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.01.11 07:38:00 - [74] I believe this topic have been discussed way too many times. All possible arguments for every side have been posted repeatedly on many many threads. All new threads on this will without a doubt, end up in smack/insult/flame.
Lord WarATron Amarr Vanguard Frontiers	Posted - 2007.01.11 10:17:00 - [75] People mission run to get isk. Most mission runner I know use the isk for pvp. People are grinding even more just to get enough isk for pvp, so if you make it easy to scan them, then they just leave low sec altogether and head off to a 0.9 system to make isk. What should be happening is mission runners get more isk, so they spend less time running lvl4's and more time pvping. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Pytria Le'Danness Placid Reborn	Posted - 2007.01.11 10:49:00 - [76] Originally by: Neon Genesis ... why do mission runners get near complete invulnerability while running missions in low sec. They don't. I probed out deadspace missions even after the patch. It just takes a lot of time, skill and patience. It was way too easy before the patch, and everyone and his brother probed out missions in a second. It also did not only apply to low sec, there were some guys who did it in high-sec too and used tactics there was no counter to, like ransoming the mission goal. Corporation RP channel: "PlacidReborn"
Mira deVorsha	Posted - 2007.01.11 10:56:00 - [77] Originally by: Gonada what it all comes down to is it really realistic that one guy running a lvl 4 mission with 2 bill isk worth of mods gets his arse wiped by a lamer geek ganker/ ganker squad in his / their cheapo setup(s)? I don't think its that at all. the person is in lowsec they are taking risks in this regards. The issue I can see in missions is that you can take a standing hit for failing it. Also the situation was changed not because of piracy (which ccp tend to let happen) but because a lot of people where warping in and aggro'ing the whole mission and then leaving or stealing the end mission item. This being done in Empire space, not low sec.
Mira deVorsha	Posted - 2007.01.11 10:57:00 - [78] btw running an eccm in a low sec mission should make you impossible to find except by the most l33t of recon players.
ArtemisEntreri Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.11 11:22:00 - [79] Originally by: Pytria Le'Danness Originally by: Neon Genesis ... why do mission runners get near complete invulnerability while running missions in low sec. They don't. I probed out deadspace missions even after the patch. It just takes a lot of time, skill and patience. It takes a lot of probes and luck, it doesn't take skill
Damien Smith Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.11 11:47:00 - [80] Originally by: ArtemisEntreri It takes a lot of probes and luck, it doesn't take skill Agreed. It takes luck, which you can improve (slightly) by grinding your skillpoints up. I'll have astrometric triangulation 5 in a day or two so that'll just leave signal acquisition and astrometric pinpointing to get to 5. Yay for sp grinds... A corpmate of mine who had never probed in his entire life tried just after the kali patch. He dropped a single probe, scanned, got a result and warped in. Nothing's changed since then, except that it takes more scans before you get a result. The system has been made far too simple, and the challenge has been replaced with infuriatingly pointless 'bad dice rolls'. In the old system you learnt by trial and error, a failed result meant that you screwed up, and needed to change something to fix it. It rewarded patience and practice. The only thing the new system rewards is grinding skillpoints on a covert alt. ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
Malcanis	Posted - 2007.01.11 11:48:00 - [81] Originally by: FooB2 did they adapt? or did they whine until CCP adapted for them........ hmm. IIRC, the numbers in lo-sec plummetted, and lo! There was much whining from Pirates about this to CCP asking them to "force" people out of hi-sec.
Zibun Ionic Minmatar Cloaca Maxima	Posted - 2007.01.11 11:54:00 - [82] Edited by: Zibun Ionic on 11/01/2007 11:59:30 Originally by: OldPueblo Edited by: OldPueblo on 10/01/2007 21:58:47 Boohoo, go run missions too then. And it's actually quite easy to catch people on the other side of a gate and kill them while in PVE setup still. Now there's a wise man. Why doesen't anyone seem to notice his post? Let the mission areas be hard to scan, while you can always catch them at next jump. -z Cloaca Maxima - The Sewage of Amarr Empire.
Malcanis	Posted - 2007.01.11 11:56:00 - [83] "It's completely setup so mission runners have this instant safety while pirates have to work very hard to break it. Heaven forbid mission runners should have to setup for various situations" Blame the unimaginative design of the missions for that. But Tux did post that they're looking to put "fewer but better" rats in belts and missions, didn't he? Maybe if PvE fittings converge somewhat with PvP fittings, the problems will be reduced somewhat?
Lord WarATron Amarr Vanguard Frontiers	Posted - 2007.01.11 12:05:00 - [84] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 11/01/2007 12:02:55 Lets put this in language that everyone understands. People mission run to get isk. If the benifits of low sec is less than the benifits of some 0.9 agent, I.E if they are going to get ganked, then they will pack their bags and leave lowsec alone. Now just about everyone I know only runs missions to get isk for PvP. If it takes them 5 days of missions to fund 2 days of pvp - thats what they do. If it takes them 1 day of missions to do 6 days of pvp - again thats what they do. They buy ships and pvp indefently until their stock runs out then repeat missions. What most of you guys need to relise that ONLY if missions have a big payoff, then you will get more targets and the targets you get will have better equipment = better loot drops/piracy. As it stands, there is no point for someone to lose a 2bil setup just to gain an extra 500-1000 lp per mission, in addition to the added hassels. Be honest here - if you could instantly warp to a mission runner - how long is he going to bring in a 2bil setup to lowsec? How long is he going to stay in lowsec? --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
ArtemisEntreri Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.11 12:33:00 - [85] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 11/01/2007 12:06:10 Edited by: Lord WarATron on 11/01/2007 12:05:34 Edited by: Lord WarATron on 11/01/2007 12:02:55 Lets put this in language that everyone understands. People mission run to get isk. If the benifits of low sec is less than the benifits of some 0.9 agent, I.E if they are going to get ganked, then they will pack their bags and leave lowsec alone. Now just about everyone I know only runs missions to get isk for PvP. If it takes them 5 days of missions to fund 2 days of pvp - thats what they do. If it takes them 1 day of missions to do 6 days of pvp - again thats what they do. They buy ships and pvp indefently until their stock runs out then repeat missions. What most of you guys need to relise that ONLY if missions have a big payoff, then you will get more targets and the targets you get will have better equipment = better loot drops/piracy. As it stands, there is no point for someone to lose a 2bil setup just to gain an extra 500-1000 lp per mission, in addition to the added hassels. Add in warpouts if you see probes in scanners, and suddenly it seems that any benifit is lost. You are better off doing 0.0 missions insted, since you make more isk/lp in a disposable throwaway drake doing lvl3's, than doing lvl4's in lowsec in a 2bil setup. Be honest here - if you could instantly warp to a mission runner - how long is he going to bring in a 2bil setup to lowsec? How long is he going to stay in lowsec? That's why the old system worked, it took a lot of skill which most people didn't bother learning so not a lot of people got killed. And the point about mission running for pvp isk, doesn't apply to a lot of people who only do it for better setups.
Hellspawn01 Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.01.11 13:10:00 - [86] Originally by: ArtemisEntreri That's why the old system worked, it took a lot of skill which most people didn't bother learning so not a lot of people got killed. The lazy pirats didnt get such kills and then they complained. Did you see any pirate with hundred of mission runner kills per week whining? Originally by: ArtemisEntreriAnd the point about mission running for pvp isk, doesn't apply to a lot of people who only do it for better setups.[/quote Of course it doesnt apply for everyone. Those that do it for pvp use expensive setups too. For example some run missions for a navy ship which gets used in pvp or sold to buy stuff for pvp. Others keep the ships and run more missions and dont pvp but fly into low sec with very expensive ships, you just got to find out where. But finding them takes skills again and lazy pirats wont get kills. Ship lovers click here
Lord WarATron Amarr Vanguard Frontiers	Posted - 2007.01.11 14:04:00 - [87] Originally by: ArtemisEntreri And the point about mission running for pvp isk, doesn't apply to a lot of people who only do it for better setups. And what do they do with these setups? Almost every mission runner I know buys the uber stuff, as to secure his income/hour. Then once he has a mega money maker, he then spends all his isk stockpiling for pvp gear, as there is nothing else to spend his isk on to improve is isk/hour ratio. Once they burn up their stokpile, they save up again. I dont know any mission runner that just mission runs for the sake of missions --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Trask Kilraen The Older Gamers	Posted - 2007.01.11 14:06:00 - [88] Why do some pirates want to be able to easily probe missions? Because it's an almost no-risk kill. If the mission runner knows his business, he's running missions as close to the limit of his abilities as possible. Therefore, you warp in, his tank is already stressed, he's already engaged, ya pop him easy, take the phat loot, and move on. Gimme a break. Now you can argue that a mission runner has almost no risk... and if the runner does his homework, I wouldn't disagree. Even so, the runner will probably lose a ship every now and then to bad intel, the lagmonster, whatever. But if you want missions to be riskier, then the rewards have to be better. The OP, IMO is the one whining for an "easy button"
ArtemisEntreri Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.11 15:05:00 - [89] Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: ArtemisEntreri And the point about mission running for pvp isk, doesn't apply to a lot of people who only do it for better setups. And what do they do with these setups? Almost every mission runner I know buys the uber stuff, as to secure his income/hour. Then once he has a mega money maker, he then spends all his isk stockpiling for pvp gear, as there is nothing else to spend his isk on to improve is isk/hour ratio. Once they burn up their stokpile, they save up again. I dont know any mission runner that just mission runs for the sake of missions These sound like decent people.
ArtemisEntreri Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.11 15:05:00 - [90] Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: ArtemisEntreri And the point about mission running for pvp isk, doesn't apply to a lot of people who only do it for better setups. And what do they do with these setups? Almost every mission runner I know buys the uber stuff, as to secure his income/hour. Then once he has a mega money maker, he then spends all his isk stockpiling for pvp gear, as there is nothing else to spend his isk on to improve is isk/hour ratio. Once they burn up their stokpile, they save up again. I dont know any mission runner that just mission runs for the sake of missions These sound like decent people.
ArtemisEntreri Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.11 15:09:00 - [91] Originally by: Trask Kilraen Why do some pirates want to be able to easily probe missions? Because it's an almost no-risk kill. If the mission runner knows his business, he's running missions as close to the limit of his abilities as possible. Therefore, you warp in, his tank is already stressed, he's already engaged, ya pop him easy, take the phat loot, and move on. Gimme a break. Now you can argue that a mission runner has almost no risk... and if the runner does his homework, I wouldn't disagree. Even so, the runner will probably lose a ship every now and then to bad intel, the lagmonster, whatever. But if you want missions to be riskier, then the rewards have to be better. The OP, IMO is the one whining for an "easy button" I am by no means asking for the pre-nerf system.
ArtemisEntreri Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.11 15:09:00 - [92] Originally by: Trask Kilraen Why do some pirates want to be able to easily probe missions? Because it's an almost no-risk kill. If the mission runner knows his business, he's running missions as close to the limit of his abilities as possible. Therefore, you warp in, his tank is already stressed, he's already engaged, ya pop him easy, take the phat loot, and move on. Gimme a break. Now you can argue that a mission runner has almost no risk... and if the runner does his homework, I wouldn't disagree. Even so, the runner will probably lose a ship every now and then to bad intel, the lagmonster, whatever. But if you want missions to be riskier, then the rewards have to be better. The OP, IMO is the one whining for an "easy button" I am by no means asking for the pre-nerf system.
Damien Smith Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.11 15:25:00 - [93] The amount of missioners that get probed now is about the same as in the pre-kali system. The only difference is that before only the most practiced and capable coverts got the kills, whereas now whether you're a vet or noob, if you have the same amount of skillpoints and the target is within range of the probe, you have exactly the same chance of locating the target. Player skill doesn't factor into the equation any more. In the old system you spent more time narrowing the target down with the directional scanner and dropping bookmarks to get you the perfect probe placement than the entire system takes now. All you do now is 360 degree scan to see if the target is in range of a particular probe, and if he is, drop the probe and scan repeatedly until you get a result. The most interactivity you can get now is overlapping a couple of probes to try and weigh the magic dice in your favour. No one here is suggesting we make probing mission runners easier. What we're saying is entirely the opposite. The system's too easy, it's just that you need to go through the same easy process multiple times to get anywhere. That's not challenging, that's a grind. ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
Katrina Kirellii Caldari Escorts of Eve	Posted - 2007.01.11 15:37:00 - [94] Originally by: Trask Kilraen Why do some pirates want to be able to easily probe missions? Because it's an almost no-risk kill. If the mission runner knows his business, he's running missions as close to the limit of his abilities as possible. Therefore, you warp in, his tank is already stressed, he's already engaged, ya pop him easy, take the phat loot, and move on. Gimme a break. Now you can argue that a mission runner has almost no risk... and if the runner does his homework, I wouldn't disagree. Even so, the runner will probably lose a ship every now and then to bad intel, the lagmonster, whatever. But if you want missions to be riskier, then the rewards have to be better. The OP, IMO is the one whining for an "easy button" Exactly - the "Easy Button" should not be available to pirates. They chose a hard profession and should have to deal with it. I think it should be made even harder for them. Maybe if the mission spawn changed targets to someone who was not supposed to be in the mission. Not their mission and not in the gang. Yeah - that would be swell if that could be implemented. Join Today!
Exlegion Legion's Knight	Posted - 2007.01.11 15:51:00 - [95] Originally by: Damien Smith No one here is suggesting we make probing mission runners easier. The OP and some others are suggesting it be as easy as probing a safe spot or mining spot. Would you like me to point it out again for you?
Jenna Culthaire	Posted - 2007.01.11 15:55:00 - [96] Because mission runners make up a vast amount of the game community, and lets not forget that being kitted out for PVP is very different from being kitted out for a mission. I move around Low Sec quite a lot and theres not so many folks about. High Sec a very different situation. My guess is that High Sec and 0.0 are where most people can be found. I reckon you just want 'easy big kills' and mission loot....
Damien Smith Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.11 16:21:00 - [97] Originally by: Exlegion Originally by: Damien Smith No one here is suggesting we make probing mission runners easier. The OP and some others are suggesting it be as easy as probing a safe spot or mining spot. Would you like me to point it out again for you? Probing safespots is still overpowered. I doubt that anyone (apart from noobs who just want easy ganks) want probing missions to be that easy. That being said though, it should be no harder. The system as it is now is screwed, I'm sure everyone will agree. Altering the 'chance' of getting a result won't fix the problem, it'll just adjust the amount of scans you need to repeat before you get a result. I'll probably sound like I'm repeating myself but I'll say it again anyway - Scan probing in its current form takes zero skill. If you did to combat what had been done to scan probing then you wouldn't have to allow for tracking, transversal, sig radius etc any more. The only deciding factor of any fight would be whether or not your guns were in range, and if they were, a magic dice weighted by the amount of gunnery skillpoints trained would decide if you won or not. The player with the most gunnery skillpoints would win in every single fight. How is that in any way a fulfilling challenge? ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
Exlegion Legion's Knight	Posted - 2007.01.11 16:29:00 - [98] Can't argue with you on that. I'm for a 'smarter' system that involves less luck as well. If the old system meant that actual human skills improved the chances of a successful probe scan then perhaps CCP should consider reverting back to it. The whole "Don't fix what..." deal. Ah well, 'guess we'll see. Exlegion
Damien Smith Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.11 16:50:00 - [99] Edited by: Damien Smith on 11/01/2007 16:49:34 Originally by: Exlegion Can't argue with you on that. I'm for a 'smarter' system that involves less luck as well. If the old system meant that actual human skills improved the chances of a successful probe scan then perhaps CCP should consider reverting back to it. The whole "Don't fix what..." deal. Ah well, 'guess we'll see. Exlegion The old system only ever had one complaint. That was that the scan probes scanned in a disc shape, rather than a sphere. That meant a target could be in range of a directional scan, yet be outside the probes vertical scanning range. That alone was its only flaw. Player skills didn't just increase the chances of a successful scan, they decided whether or not you got a result at all. If all three probes were in a triangle around the target and were all in range, you got a result. If just one was off, you didn't. You had to work down through the probe sizes too. Observators dropped you just within 192au probes, they dropped you in 48au probe range, which then dropped you in 12au probe range, which dropped you in 3au probe range. It was very time intensive and just one dropped probe could make all the difference. The disc shaped scan area wasn't a problem at all in my opinion. The was nothing more exciting than trying desperately to use results from the less accurate probes to warp between and make bookmarks, that would then allow you to get a good spot to drop a smaller one before the target spotted you or moved on. Probing was fun back then. ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
Manus Stuprare Dominus Nihil EVE	Posted - 2007.01.11 20:28:00 - [100] How about a bit of give and take: - make missions easier to scan out, but - make mission rats able to switch targets, instead of keeping aggro on the mission runner all the time. Both players thus have to deal with damage from the rats, which leads to a fairer fight. That's what everyone wants... isn't it?
Petrothian Tong	Posted - 2007.01.11 20:56:00 - [101] Damien Smith wins the thread....
Stakhanov Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.11 21:05:00 - [102] Rats should be smarter period. What is aggravating is that mission runners were offered near invulnerability - maybe to make up for the stab nerf ? (as if it only harmed them...) I'm all for giving them counters to probing. ECCM , maybe some kind of probe detecting module - to be alerted when they've been successfully scanned. It would be even better to have warp bubbles / probes work against acceleration gates. Anything that involves some thinking - not a free shield for the clueless.
Karlemgne The Black Fleet	Posted - 2007.01.11 21:11:00 - [103] Originally by: Damien Smith Edited by: Damien Smith on 11/01/2007 16:49:34 Originally by: Exlegion Can't argue with you on that. I'm for a 'smarter' system that involves less luck as well. If the old system meant that actual human skills improved the chances of a successful probe scan then perhaps CCP should consider reverting back to it. The whole "Don't fix what..." deal. Ah well, 'guess we'll see. Exlegion The old system only ever had one complaint. That was that the scan probes scanned in a disc shape, rather than a sphere. That meant a target could be in range of a directional scan, yet be outside the probes vertical scanning range. That alone was its only flaw. Player skills didn't just increase the chances of a successful scan, they decided whether or not you got a result at all. If all three probes were in a triangle around the target and were all in range, you got a result. If just one was off, you didn't. You had to work down through the probe sizes too. Observators dropped you just within 192au probes, they dropped you in 48au probe range, which then dropped you in 12au probe range, which dropped you in 3au probe range. It was very time intensive and just one dropped probe could make all the difference. The disc shaped scan area wasn't a problem at all in my opinion. The was nothing more exciting than trying desperately to use results from the less accurate probes to warp between and make bookmarks, that would then allow you to get a good spot to drop a smaller one before the target spotted you or moved on. Probing was fun back then. It might have been fun, but it was pointless unless you were hunting someone who logged off with a timer. 90% of the people you tried to probe knew they could beat you by warping between safespots... And even if they didn't know that, the time investment was prohibative. It took at least 3 minutes to scan someone out, and that is if everything went right. More often then not, even those who were unaware of how to beat your probe did anyway, just because it took so damn long. I like the system how it is now. It has added a whole dimension to find targets, and avoiding those who want vengence. CCP did a good job with the changes, but I'm still going to gripe at how the mission runners are virtually immune. -Karl
Karlemgne The Black Fleet	Posted - 2007.01.11 21:29:00 - [104] Originally by: Gix Firebrand Man.. it makes me sad to see so many of my fellow pirates whine like little girls :( You got several options. One, if it bothers you that much vote with your wallet and quit. I absolutely hate this logic. First of all, we do not "vote" by capitalistic consumption. Voting refers to a specific type of social conflict resolution. And for the record consumer choices don't equal freedom. Don't think that I'm done lecturing you. I'll continue on about how much I hate that agrument. You telling me to quit if I don't like the way CCP handles a single game mechanic, is akin to someone telling me to leave the country if I don't like the government. It makes no sense in either case. I am a member of this community, and a player of this game, and I have the obligation to speak up when I think one particular part doesn't work well. Quote: Two, get better at scanning and camping the warp in point. Getting better at scanning is not possible. Even with your scan probe skills maximized, it is still prohibatively difficult to scan out a mission runner. A couple corp mates of mine were trying to scan out a Raven in a level 4 mission. This Raven sat in the dead space for 3 hours, and after a total of 21 probes had been used (in range) the mission was never busted. As to camping a "warp in" point, there are about 50 things you can be refering to. Sufficit to say, once a mission runner is in a low sec station, with his or her agents, it is very hard to "camp" them. They easily dock again if they undock to a camp, can't be found in their missions, and have free insta docks these days. Quote: Three, stop crying. The only people I see crying here are mission runners and guys like you. "Wahhhhh! I like my easy money, the game isn't broken, keep it easy for me! Wahhh! You don't like it leave eve! Wahhh!" Quote: Four, rally for increased low sec profit to make it worth the risk. You are right. If I suddenly made twice what the mission runners did from simple low sec belt ratting (lets face it, belt ratting is 10x more dangerous than mission running) then I suppose I might be conviced to leave the bo-ho poor billionare mission runners in their faction BS's to their easy mission money. -K
Christopher Dalran	Posted - 2007.01.11 22:17:00 - [105] Make the mission spawn split off and start attacking the new arrival instead of everything shooting at the victim untill they are destroyed and probing missions would be ok. Before all you had to do was warp into someones mission and you would win every single time (unless they warped out) because the missions spawns alwayse helped you.
Merdaneth Amarr Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.01.11 22:19:00 - [106] It's very simple. If it is as easy to scan missions as it is safespots: 1. low-sec mission runners will just run missions in high-sec or rat in 0.0, in both cases the risk is much lower and the rewards much better than missioning in low-sec. 2. Pirates will do nothing else than scan out and attack mission runners in low-sec, since the risk is much lower and the rewards much better than camping, belt hunting or any other activity. Obviously, this will result in low-sec systems devoid of mission runners and full of scanning pirates within a few weeks. The current reality: suppose the chance of scanning out and actually killing the mission runner is 2% for each 5 minutes invested. The average payout (next to the fun of ganking someone) is about 75mil in loot. That means the isk/hour is 18mil. About the same what the missioners earn, hence very well balanced.
Karlemgne The Black Fleet	Posted - 2007.01.11 23:07:00 - [107] Edited by: Karlemgne on 11/01/2007 23:04:08 Originally by: Merdaneth It's very simple. If it is as easy to scan missions as it is safespots: 1. low-sec mission runners will just run missions in high-sec or rat in 0.0, in both cases the risk is much lower and the rewards much better than missioning in low-sec. 2. Pirates will do nothing else than scan out and attack mission runners in low-sec, since the risk is much lower and the rewards much better than camping, belt hunting or any other activity. Obviously, this will result in low-sec systems devoid of mission runners and full of scanning pirates within a few weeks. The current reality: suppose the chance of scanning out and actually killing the mission runner is 2% for each 5 minutes invested. The average payout (next to the fun of ganking someone) is about 75mil in loot. That means the isk/hour is 18mil. About the same what the missioners earn, hence very well balanced. First of all, I am not in favor of making it just as easy to scan out mission runners as it is to scan out those in safespots... but, it should be pretty close. You fix the problems you are talking about two fold. One you move all the level 4 agents into low sec. Two you make mission NPCs change agro when others arrive, and three you allow mission runners to equip some sort of signal damper to reduce the effectiveness of scan probes. A couple of other things. Gate camping, when done by more than 5 people, is relatively safe. Not all pirates have the skills to deploy scan probes. Furthermore, as it is now, it is already like the mission runners aren't out here. We can never catch them, unless of course we happen to catch them at a gate coming in or out of low sec. Then again, keep in mind that a whole lot of youger pirates don't have the skills or numbers to tank sentries and fight Battleships. But, hey, I guess this game only exists to make mission runners rich, to give 0.0 alliances something to do, and give the old pirates just enough that they keep paying their dues. Quote: current reality: suppose the chance of scanning out and actually killing the mission runner is 2% for each 5 minutes invested. The average payout (next to the fun of ganking someone) is about 75mil in loot. That means the isk/hour is 18mil. About the same what the missioners earn, hence very well balanced. This statistic is completely manufactured. I am here to tell you, that during an entire DAY (9 hours of play time) you are lucky to scan out one mission runner, who most often is gone by the time you warp in. -Karlemgne
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.01.11 23:09:00 - [108] all for the old system being brought back with scanning spheres instead of discs Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -Marcus TheMartin
Karlemgne The Black Fleet	Posted - 2007.01.11 23:42:00 - [109] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin all for the old system being brought back with scanning spheres instead of discs Pirates are suddenly in favor of the old system coming back... Not because it was better, but because we get caught more. Too bad mission runners are still virtully immune. -Karl
Lygos Amarr ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.12 00:00:00 - [110] Edited by: Lygos on 12/01/2007 00:00:06 Engagability is critical for co-op gameplay. If the only way to engage an npc grinder is to camp their station, then you eliminate content for both the pirate and the npcer. The NPCer doesn't undock, and the pirate can only ransom the player for the advantage of not having to log off for the night. If an alt-probe-scout can get to the entrance of the NPCer's complex, then yes, there is a chance that the pirate might manage to enter the system and force an engagement with the npcer. Don't forget that there is no MWDing in complexes, so it's only the Raven pilot that just sits next to the entrance and spams missiles that runs any risk. Allowing the possibility of engagement is not important for the sake of engagement alone. It allows for the necessity of players making political decisions such as becoming territorial, or seeking other collective possibilities for defense, or mitigation of risk. Arguments of numbers involved on either side are not represented by the current situation. The pirate has the incentive of seeking aid in numbers, but he earns less income for it. The NPCer can grind server content solo, but he can easily adopt the practic of being ganged with other allied, or perhaps finding and shooting all neutrals who enter the system. You allow players to have incentives towards making their own political decisions, and allow advantages to compete with one another and you will see Jaspet miners with -9.8 security standing. They in turn may begin to rely on traders with higher mobility to service their needs. Incidents of self-organization tend to sponsor further such incidents. Blobbing is the self-reinforcing amalgamation of people seeking out cooperative or ideosophic bonds. Anti-blobbing incentives have to come from both risk, expense of operational resources, and tendencies towards internal competition. For these reasons, Player to Player content in all forms will always be priveleged over Player to Server content. It inevitably leads to richer, more innovative, more complex, more immersive, longer-lasting experiences. --- T2 Risk \| Corp Divisions
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.01.12 00:07:00 - [111] Originally by: Karlemgne Originally by: Marcus TheMartin all for the old system being brought back with scanning spheres instead of discs Pirates are suddenly in favor of the old system coming back... Not because it was better, but because we get caught more. Too bad mission runners are still virtully immune. -Karl You can't be immune to skill and thats what it took to use the old probes of course the disc thing was very annoying. Add spheres and retromorph the probe system I think every one will be satisfied. I'm not too fond of probe alts constantly probe spamming hoping their magic dice roll is greater than the person getting probes saving throw in my opinion Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -Marcus TheMartin
Dixon Caldari Hells Donkeys	Posted - 2007.01.12 00:55:00 - [112] Don't fix what ain't broken, probes are working as intended. Missions are NOT that hard to find, they're just different.. - - - - - - Originally by: Ath Amon as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...
Frug SYOID Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.01.12 01:01:00 - [113] Agreed. Don't whine because you don't have an idiot proof button to find and gank a guy who's stuck fighting 30 rats at once. - - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - or automatic signatures - - - - - - - -
Taipan Gedscho Taipan Industries	Posted - 2007.01.12 01:08:00 - [114] hi. i am a highsec mission *****. i toyed around with probes to see how it works. my 50 cents: before the change, too easy. now, too hard. something in the middle would be nice imho.
Donna Darko	Posted - 2007.01.12 03:23:00 - [115] Probes are working as intended, indeed, and probes were working as intended before, but that doesn't mean they were/are useful with their old/current behavior. Stories.
Karlemgne The Black Fleet	Posted - 2007.01.12 05:40:00 - [116] Originally by: Frug Agreed. Don't whine because you don't have an idiot proof button to find and gank a guy who's stuck fighting 30 rats at once. Sadly they have an idiot proof, pirate proof, everyone proof money making machine in the form of level four missions. Don't whine because its you making all the reward with virtually no risk. -Karl
Gix Firebrand Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.01.12 08:44:00 - [117] Erm Karl.. I don't run lvl 4s. I also don't run in low sec cause I don't want to get ganked :D So I'm not one of these "billion-making invincible carebears" or some such. In fact, you can usually find me ratting in low sec :D However, you need to see both sides. But it does come off as whining, and it does come off like you just want easy kills. Don't whine about scanning, whine about increased low sec profit :D and I'm all for moving lvl 4 out of low sec, or at least making it a bit more dangerous in terms of rats/difficulty.
Lord WarATron Amarr Vanguard Frontiers	Posted - 2007.01.12 09:29:00 - [118] Again lets be honest here. Pirates want easy ganks on mission runners to get their billion isk setups. If the Billion isk setup player relises that they are going to get jumped, then they are not going to fly expensive setups or leave low sec altogether. Mission runners have demands and also supply the market. The Demand of mission runners in low sec hubs open up traders to come in etc etc. No mission runners means traders go elseware and at the end of the day, pirates lose out as targets dissapear. So whats the solution? --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
OldPueblo Gallente The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2007.01.12 09:30:00 - [119] Edited by: OldPueblo on 12/01/2007 09:27:46 The irony is that I see lowsec as more populated now that people feel safer travelling with warp to 0. Once again though, every time they jump they can be caught on the other side. And many missions send you into low-sec or from low-sec to neighboring low-sec systems. Its not just station to mission back to station always. The opportunities are there, they just won't be handed on a platter.
Tiny Tove	Posted - 2007.01.12 10:05:00 - [120] Hardly the only irony is it? Ironic that the gankbears have come to whining. Especially after all the whining accusations they've been doing since -f-o-r-e-v-e-r-. Ironic that they insist we meta game using alt scouts, but not with logoff. Ironic that warp to zero just made gate camping less detectable since you can't scan the gate you'll be caught at without meta gaming. Ironic that gankbears think that the map says "Gate Camp In Progress" when you select Pilots In System. No, it shows pilots in system, and ships destroyed. Not "Gankbears with no new ideas". It's long overdue that the carebears stop thinking about gankbears as mindless thugs, but as whiny little babies who require candy, easy pickings ganks and at the very least an "I Usually Win" button. Please keep crying. It is abso-kin-lutely priceless what you gankbears have become. It is your own fault. The thoughtless destruction of everything you meet has lead to you meeting less, and somehow you didn't see that coming. Blame CCP if it makes you feel better. In the meantime, LOL!
Aria Jenneth Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.12 10:11:00 - [121] Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 12/01/2007 10:13:09 Speaking as someone who specializes in scan probes ... Before the scan difficulty fix, it was downright embarrassing how easy it was to catch a missioner. The poor fellow was just unlucky enough to be on a mission, in an Apoc, within scanning range of several planets, so one Snoop later my buzzard was sitting at the entry gate. From there, it was just sad: we sent in the battleships, tackled him, and demanded ransom. He only spoke Russian, so ... pop. I felt bad for the guy. Look, you piratical lot, if you want Lowsec empty (again) except for people doing the frantic gate-to-gate warp you love so much, make it easy to find missioners. No one will mission in lowsec unless they're looking to ambush pirates, utter newbs, or so bored (or rich) they don't care about losing ships. For those of you who are saying people should just "watch local": what are you smoking? This is a great strategy in 0.0: see someone you don't know, hit a safespot. In lowsec, this doesn't work for beans, because there are almost always at least a couple of other people in-system, and as I'm sure you're aware, pirates don't always look like pirates. You're not required to flash red, or even yellow, and you certainly don't come with a skull and crossbones plastered to your local chat tab. Ergo, local is functionally useless. Just try running a mission in Otsasai while "watching local" and see whether you tell the pirates from the non-pirates while keeping Enemies Abound 1 from ripping your hull out from around your pod. The new system is admittedly imperfect, but it beats the hell out of the free kills the old system offered. This is from someone who was taking those kills. It bit.
FreeHansje Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.12 10:17:00 - [122] Edited by: FreeHansje on 12/01/2007 10:14:30 Quote: This statistic is completely manufactured. I am here to tell you, that during an entire DAY (9 hours of play time) you are lucky to scan out one mission runner, who most often is gone by the time you warp in. If you read all postings in this thread you'll read, that some ppl tell you otherwise and hint, that it takes an out-of-the-box approach. Maybe you do something wrong? Something else. I run missions. I read about missionrunners being biollionairs with factionships/mods. I wonder where these ppl are? I am no billionair, I have no factionmods, let alone factionships. I make good money, yes, but I spend a lot of money too. If you are a billionaire, why go missionrunning? ----- FreeHansje Yes, I'm a Newby. So sue me!
Damien Smith Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.12 10:47:00 - [123] Originally by: Aria Jenneth The new system is admittedly imperfect, but it beats the hell out of the free kills the old system offered. This is from someone who was taking those kills. I think you're misunderstanding what we all mean by 'the old system'. The old system isn't the post kali first iteration of the chance based single probe system. The overpowered one. It is the pre kali 3 probe triangulation system. The old system had 3au snoop probes that had to be within 1.5au of the target to get a result, (the probe size in the name used to be its diameter, not its radius) 12au fathoms(6au), 48au spooks(24au), 192au ferrets (96au) and finally the observators (infinite range). At the worst case scenario you'd be trying to probe a target that is off plane and outside the triangle made by the planets in the system, so you have no way to make a triangle around the target to drop 3 probes. Each probe had to be within range of the target and in a triangle around it or the scan would fail. In that situation you'd have to drop an observator, scan 3 times and at each result you'd drop a 192au probe. You'd then scan 3 times with 3x 192's and at each result drop a 48au. Scan 3 times with 3x 48's and at each result drop a 12, then scan 3x with those and at each result drop a 3au. 3x 3au snoops (which all had to end up within 1.5au of the target horizontally and about 0.5au vertically. Remember the disc shape complaint?) should, providing they were all in range give you the warp in you needed to reach your target. Now remember that every single probe had to be within range of the target, and when you have to make 3x scans for each level of probe size, and it was next to impossible to jump down multiple probe sizes (like going from 3x 48au's down to 3x 3au snoops) as the scan deviation was always just smaller than the max range of the next smallest probe in the list. The thing about the old system was that it wasn't chance based. The fact that you had to triangulate your target, every probe having to be in range of the target, the far smaller probe scanning areas, the scan deviations not allowing probe size jumping (well, occasionally you did get lucky) and the fact that during all of this your target could spot you or your probes, or finish the mission and move on meant that it was very hard. You were talking 30-45mins for some of the tougher off plane mission spots, including re-dropping expired probes, and warping between bookmarks to line the narrow vertical scan height with the target. There are probably the same amount of missions being probed out today as there was back then, but now everyone with a properly trained covert alt is getting a share of the kills. In the old system having a trained covert alt was meaningless if you didn't have the skills to use it properly. The dedicated probers got lots of kills, and the amateurs got very little. And why not? They put the time in to learn the tricks and to practice so they deserve the kills. Mission runners weren't overfarmed, but enough died to keep the limited amount of professional probers in tasty loot. How many scan probe whines did you see before kali? ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.12 10:57:00 - [124] The real question is why low sec mission runners should have it easier than belt ratters? The answer is none. It REALLY isnt that hard to leave a can at the warp in spot and then move 30-40km off that spot. Its only the idiot ravens who sat at the warp in spewing missiles that got caught. Move all L4s to lowsec, make it so it requires an explorations probe to scan out an acceleration gate(so you must use the much slower 10minute probe launcher), but increase the success chance to half way between the old and the new odds. All the talk about bringing back the RMR system is pointless, because frankly ccp simply will not do it.
Zibun Ionic Minmatar Cloaca Maxima	Posted - 2007.01.12 11:30:00 - [125] [pilot name removed] > no. warp to - the ability to insta-warp to any target in system. It's a GM ability, but it can be got via some childish alteration of data. they covered it up with the 'probe' system to conceal the weakness of design Now while I was flying around, I saw that opinion cast in local chat. Anyway, current probing system appears to be too easy. I tested it with my lvl3 probing skills, and found the mission runner I was looking for with second scan. This was high sec system however, but I don't think its different in low sec. -z Cloaca Maxima - The Sewage of Amarr Empire.
Lubomir Penev Gallente Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2007.01.12 14:02:00 - [126] Originally by: Benglada Edited by: Benglada on 09/01/2007 23:37:29 It seems to me that everytime mission runners whine about something they get it. Case in point: Probing a mission. Why should probing a mission be any less difficult then probing a safespot? Why should them doing a mission give them some magical near invulnurability? If they fail to use the scanner to see if someones scanning them, that is THEIR problem. When im at a safespot 95% of the time im aligned and mash the scan button like a psychopath and, because of this, i rarely die. I think mission runners should have to do the same thing, it is low sec after all, is it not? At your safespot you are not pounded/scramed by hordes of NPC, and in a mission you can stay aligned if you're in a Raven/Domi but a gunship has to maneuver a bit to reduce transfersal and get in range. If you are jumped at your safespot you'll be at full cap, armor and shield too. And more important you can be PvP fit at your safespot. I'd favor player in deadspace being easier to probe if mission where doable PvP fit, like belt ratting is, right now they are not unless you use a grossly oversized ship for the job (I've seen farmer teams using 4 battleships to farm level 3 missions). Level 4 mission as they are designed make you tank insane DPS of a very specific type for very long, too long to make cap injected ship viable (unlike PvP where this is a must) and in most cases leaving ships with some resistance hole just so they can handle the rats. Any decently fitted PvP ship can slaughter a missioning ship with some application of nos and help from the rats, making it hardly balanced to make missioners easy to find... On a related note, IMHO all the old scanning system needed to be fixed was the probes to scan a sphere and not a pie, the need to drop a succession of probes and having them show up on scanner was balanced, right now you can be found by a probe you didn't see on scan
Mogubu League of Gentlemen O X I D E	Posted - 2007.01.12 14:49:00 - [127] As suggested - just let the rats switch targets. Since the lvl4s apperantly is really easy, it should not be very difficult for the average pirate to tank them while killing the noob mission runner. Heck, they might even make some npc iskies out of it! W1n for all! --- Buy mjolnir javelins or rage infernos? Eve-mail me!
Exlegion Legion's Knight	Posted - 2007.01.12 15:17:00 - [128] These "NERF MISSION RUNNERS NOW!!!!!!111!!" threads seem to pop up once in a while ending with the same stuff being said over and over again. I'm beginning to suspect the OP was just trolling. There is no way in hell that even an 8-year-old would associate L4 missions with safe spotting. OP starts thread. Four pages later and hasyet to post again. A month or two from now this same topic is going to pop up only to go through the same cycle. And then another two months and yet again another gankbear takes potshots at mission runners via the forums. I don't know why I bother responding anymore.
Donna Darko	Posted - 2007.01.12 15:50:00 - [129] Originally by: Lubomir Penev On a related note, IMHO all the old scanning system needed to be fixed was the probes to scan a sphere and not a pie, the need to drop a succession of probes and having them show up on scanner was balanced, right now you can be found by a probe you didn't see on scan That had always been my intention when I kept asking for their fix. I didn't imagine it will become a click click wait fest... On the other hand, I still agree that the old system was too slow and required too long to catch any ship, so I see its good parts too. Stories.
Starlinger	Posted - 2007.01.12 15:56:00 - [130] Originally by: Manus Stuprare How about a bit of give and take: - make missions easier to scan out, but - make mission rats able to switch targets, instead of keeping aggro on the mission runner all the time. Both players thus have to deal with damage from the rats, which leads to a fairer fight. That's what everyone wants... isn't it? Totally agree. Mission rats must be proportionally switched on newcomers, but i fear we get a whinie from pirates again as their setups are designed for PvP.
Karlemgne The Black Fleet	Posted - 2007.01.12 22:45:00 - [131] Originally by: Starlinger Originally by: Manus Stuprare How about a bit of give and take: - make missions easier to scan out, but - make mission rats able to switch targets, instead of keeping aggro on the mission runner all the time. Both players thus have to deal with damage from the rats, which leads to a fairer fight. That's what everyone wants... isn't it? Totally agree. Mission rats must be proportionally switched on newcomers, but i fear we get a whinie from pirates again as their setups are designed for PvP. You wouldn't hear any complaints for me. -Karl
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.12 23:30:00 - [132] considering one lucky scan can net a pirate gang several billion in faction/officer mods, or at the very least a nice helping in T2 mods, the way the probes work is fine atm. And alot of those mission runners do it to fund their PvP fix.

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