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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 19:02:00 -
[361]
 Quote:
Its time to accept the fact that bringing in changes without evaluating their full impact is **** poor management.
Thank you for amplifing my point jash that PvP IS JUST ONE FEATURE intertwined with many others.
TomB's focus is strictly on PvP. Fine. But I do have an expectation that Hellmar brings a balance to TomB's focus. Its called the team approach. TomB is doing his part very well from what I can see but Hellmar is responsible for overall balance and he is not performing well. I say this because this change will have a greater impact on the game away from PvP and that impact has not even been evaluated.
1) There is no way to evaluate the impact short of implementing it and tweaking as necessary. You can't just implement the warp inhibitor field in a few key locations and eval the results because by defining the location you skew the data. If those systems can be avoided, they will be. If those systems are the only ones availible, they will be the focal point of all the efforts to intercept travellers skewing the probability/success of intercepting people.
2) PvP isn't just 'one feature'. It is a core element designed to drive and to be driven by other core features. If that doesn't happen the entire model begins breaking down. Surplus of materials, lack of demand to drive the economy properly, ease of aquiring wealth.
The game has been running under circumstances where PvP, a core element that affects the performance of other core elements, has been muted severely by the ease to escape. Fixing these circumstance to restore the functionality of a core element is balancing.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
SUNscatcher
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Posted - 2003.12.11 19:02:00 -
[362]
testing on chaos has limited value. The real test will be when its implemented on T. Irresponsible is bringing a change to the game without evaluating its full impact and the proposed changes will have a significant impact on the game away for PvP.
If you can catch me you can have me. |
SUNscatcher
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Posted - 2003.12.11 19:09:00 -
[363]
Edited by: SUNscatcher on 11/12/2003 19:10:01
Lets face it Jash 99% of the time camping is going to occur within a fixed number of systems. These are easily predicted because camping occurs there today. Limit the implementation to those areas and while working out the bugs evalute the impact on the economy. Then maybe expanding this change to other systems will be warrented and maybe not.
There is no reason this change can't be approached slowly just as eliminating unlimited BPC's was. Creates less stress and hartache and allows people to adjust to the changes at a slower pace.
Not everyone thinks jumping into the deep end of the pool is the best way to learn how to swim.
If you can catch me you can have me. |
Fartracker
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Posted - 2003.12.11 19:20:00 -
[364]
Quote:
2) PvP isn't just 'one feature'. It is a core element designed to drive and to be driven by other core features. If that doesn't happen the entire model begins breaking down. Surplus of materials, lack of demand to drive the economy properly, ease of aquiring wealth.
Jash, start looking at the BIG picture.
PVP is ONLY 25% of the game. Most people play to have fun, and most don't enjoy PVP. In games like AO, its not difficult to replace things you loose in PVP (if you loose anything), but in Eve, loosing ANYthing = loss of time spent playing, that you need to waste again to replace what you lost.
Very few of the population want to PVP, so take you oppinions and smoke them. Only the Rats agree with you.
Eat My Shorts! |
SUNscatcher
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Posted - 2003.12.11 20:04:00 -
[365]
I have to agree that I enjoy playing eve immensely and never participate in PvP. This change isn't limited to just the points campers camp. It will affect travel throughout the eve universe and that affect will results in players traveling less, not more.
Ultimately I think the pirates will suffer the most because as people stop traveling, though they have the means to kill other players, there won't be travelers in significant numbers to make spending hour upon hour at a gate enjoyable. Thus the change to improve their game will result in no improvement in the long run.
If you can catch me you can have me. |
Uuldahan
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Posted - 2003.12.11 20:05:00 -
[366]
Quote:
Jash, start looking at the BIG picture.
PVP is ONLY 25% of the game. Most people play to have fun, and most don't enjoy PVP. In games like AO, its not difficult to replace things you loose in PVP (if you loose anything), but in Eve, loosing ANYthing = loss of time spent playing, that you need to waste again to replace what you lost.
Very few of the population want to PVP, so take you oppinions and smoke them. Only the Rats agree with you.
That's why there's a security system. If you want to take some risk, go deeper in space. If you want to play safety, stay in protected systems, AVOID dangerous areas. You even have an autopilot that can plan the travel for you. I don't see where's the sooooo radical change. We have to think before making a decision and then have to assume it. Noone is obliged to do anything and everybody is warned of these rules. I don't see the problem.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 20:19:00 -
[367]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 11/12/2003 20:21:14
Quote:
Edited by: SUNscatcher on 11/12/2003 19:10:01
Lets face it Jash 99% of the time camping is going to occur within a fixed number of systems. These are easily predicted because camping occurs there today. Limit the implementation to those areas and while working out the bugs evalute the impact on the economy. Then maybe expanding this change to other systems will be warrented and maybe not.
When the changes themselves affect the viability of catching someone in other locations, why are you assuming that where people will camp is going to remain the same?
Quote:
There is no reason this change can't be approached slowly just as eliminating unlimited BPC's was. Creates less stress and hartache and allows people to adjust to the changes at a slower pace.
Not everyone thinks jumping into the deep end of the pool is the best way to learn how to swim.
What heartache, travel time? No way to ease that without putting the warp disruption field square where people have to run into and tweaking things like travel speed while in warp to compensate as needed.
The heartache of getting blown apart? No way to ease that. It'd be insane to ask people to like getting blown up.
You want the game to be something it's not: a place where PvP can be avoided unless you consent. The game isn't billed as that. It isn't designed that way. Even wars are not consentual, removing the safety of security areas.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
SUNscatcher
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Posted - 2003.12.11 20:58:00 -
[368]
Slowing down travel in eve will hurt the game in the long run.
If you can catch me you can have me. |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.12.11 21:46:00 -
[369]
Edited by: drunkenmaster on 11/12/2003 21:48:11
what I don't understand is why people think that there will instantly be pirates at every gate.
All I see here is people screaming because they don't read the updates, and aren't aware that they're fitting the wrong stuff to their ship, people who are screaming because they think it's just going to be dumped on TQ after not even two weeks of testing, and people who are cancelling their accounts after spending 30 minutes on chaos, the low-performance testing and balancing server.
Some people need to relax.
You don't see the NPC farmers quitting because they got raped by guristas BS's...
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Aiwa
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Posted - 2003.12.11 22:18:00 -
[370]
So will insta-bm's be nerfed or still allowed? I still don't see a straight answer for that.
Sorry if I missed it.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 22:24:00 -
[371]
Quote:
So will insta-bm's be nerfed or still allowed? I still don't see a straight answer for that.
Sorry if I missed it.
Instant bookmarks won't work to any gate with a warp disruptor field around it.
Whether or not they'll exist inside empire space is apparently still being decided.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
SUNscatcher
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Posted - 2003.12.11 22:37:00 -
[372]
Drunken there are two concerns, one getting through a camped gate won't be possible(no real evidence to support this one way or the other but camp spots can still be avoided as they currently are) but the second point that people are really screaming about(and is my biggest concern) is increasing travel times 2, 3 times what they currently are(maybe even more). Its the second point that will have a major impact on gameplay even when not involved in PvP.
I have suggested making the changes to the gate mechanics only in the choke areas at first(a small trial area to work out the bugs) rather than forcing it monday universe wide. Opposition to this doesn't make sense to this except that there are always people unwilling to compromise.
Well if eve is ever going to work then compromises have to be made by all because no one group can get everything they want without ****in off the majority. At least that is the way I see the future of the game.
If you can catch me you can have me. |
Mr nStuff
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Posted - 2003.12.11 22:38:00 -
[373]
Let me get this straight people..
Not only do we have to approach stargates to jump.. Now we have to unapproach stargates to warp?
And autopilot does this how?
Lets say I need to warp to this destination, the stargate is 15km away and between me and the direction i'm going to warp. Will autopilot travel away from my destination 5km to get out to warping distance? Or will autopilot try to fly through the stargate 35km and then warp?
Read it a couple times if it doesn't make sense.
And if autopilot does travel the 5km route away from my destination.. Is autopilot aware that the ship will have to turn around before warping? Because this whole turning around thing would probably put my ship back in the 20km range where it will not be able to warp.
I can see it now..
5 R&D Agents, 10months, Zero BPO Offers..
Onboard navigational [Planetary Avoidance] computer.
My account will be suspended at the end of the current play period.
Expires on 19. September 2004 |
Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2003.12.11 22:40:00 -
[374]
Edited by: Bobby Wilson on 11/12/2003 22:42:10
I don't get warp inhibition at every gate. All I had ever heard from pirates was a request for area of effect warp scrambling modules with long duration and very high cap useage or deployable items to do this possibly. That way they could stop insta-jumps at a gate they had camped. AFAIK that's what alliance PvPers wanted too (pirates love insta-docks and insta-jumps too when they need to run away).
AoE warp scramble modules was what was asked for, not nerfage at every gate. It serves no one to make it incredibly slow to travel when there is no one at the gate to oppose you. Seems like typical CCP though. Listen to what people are saying *in general* then ignore their specific suggestions on how to fix it and instead come up with something worse...
Travel in EVE, PvP and piracy aside, should be faster, not slower. "Approach" is the slowest part of the game, why make it worse?
BW
Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
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Artean
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Posted - 2003.12.11 22:46:00 -
[375]
Quote:
Edited by: Bobby Wilson on 11/12/2003 22:42:10
I don't get warp inhibition at every gate. All I had ever heard from pirates was a request for area of effect warp scrambling modules with long duration and very high cap useage or deployable items to do this possibly. That way they could stop insta-jumps at a gate they had camped. AFAIK that's what alliance PvPers wanted too (pirates love insta-docks and insta-jumps too when they need to run away).
AoE warp scramble modules was what was asked for, not nerfage at every gate. It serves no one to make it incredibly slow to travel when there is no one at the gate to oppose you. Seems like typical CCP though. Listen to what people are saying *in general* then ignore their specific suggestions on how to fix it and instead come up with something worse...
Travel in EVE, PvP and piracy aside, should be faster, not slower. "Approach" is the slowest part of the game, why make it worse?
BW
Yes, a module would be better in several ways. |
Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2003.12.11 22:49:00 -
[376]
Edited by: Bobby Wilson on 12/12/2003 18:09:38
Quote:
Yes, a module would be better in several ways.
Aye. And what makes me TOTALLY INSANE is that a module was what pirates and other PvPers asked for, in thread after thread after thread Who asked for this new system?
Edit: Interesting. They left this part in but removed the short rant about the CCP MO...
BW
Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
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Halo Jones
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Posted - 2003.12.11 22:49:00 -
[377]
Quote:
Let me get this straight people..
Not only do we have to approach stargates to jump.. Now we have to unapproach stargates to warp?
And autopilot does this how?
Lets say I need to warp to this destination, the stargate is 15km away and between me and the direction i'm going to warp. Will autopilot travel away from my destination 5km to get out to warping distance? Or will autopilot try to fly through the stargate 35km and then warp?
And if autopilot does travel the 5km route away from my destination.. Is autopilot aware that the ship will have to turn around before warping? Because this whole turning around thing would probably put my ship back in the 20km range where it will not be able to warp.
I can see it now..
I have examined this. To answer, autopilot takes the short route, it then warps after turning, if turning is required. It then gets you to next gate, approaches, jumps, moves out of field thru swiftest way, and warps you after turning if necessary.
I should say this is what autopilot 'will' do, it's currently doing this, but has a little bug which means it switches off randomly, whilst moving away form the disruptor fields, this has been BRed and LBWed, so hopefully will be fixed asap.
No credence has been given to the situation where u physically align and then warp through the warp disruptor, id it so means u move the short distance and happen to need to warp back thru the field, the warp functions and you move thru it without being disrupted (I cant even imagine attempting to roleplay this).
Travel takes for absolute ever.
Hauling takes even longer.
Drunkenmaster - I am not worried about rats at every gate, but now if there is a blockade of more than 2 ships (properly equipped), you will need dual MWD to escape, and this makes your ships useless for anything but travelling. I see a situation where blockades are broken and attacked instead of 'run', unless one of these new friagtes will be a blockade runner (HINT TomB!).
Standard travelling still takes a very long time, much longer than currently, and incredibly longer if you haven't a MWD equipped, which main fleet PvP vessels tend not to do, if a large fleet is assembled.
Oberon Incorporated. |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.12 00:08:00 -
[378]
Quote:
Quote:
Yes, a module would be better in several ways.
Aye. And what makes me TOTALLY INSANE is that a module was what pirates and other PvPers asked for, in thread after thread after thread Who asked for this new system?
BW
I didn't go there for a reason 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.12.12 00:42:00 -
[379]
Okay, I understand that people get annoyed about increasing travel times, it's only natural.
What I still don't get isa the people assume that this is the *final* implementation, within a week of it appearing on chaos. The fact that it is on chaos for purposes of tuning such things as travel time problems/escape-capture balance and such just totally goes over their heads.
You've gotta be quite a substantial nimrod to quit a game over a freshly implemented system appearing on a test server.
Constructive criticism goes a lot further than foot-stomping and peanut-throwing.
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Johnson McCrae
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Posted - 2003.12.12 02:05:00 -
[380]
Something else to consider. The MWD's themselves. Currently, they only boost 420%, not the 700%+, so just having one is totally useless in escaping a scramble, and very difficult with 2, because fo the cap usage.
This is going to be a nightmare, and CCP's the one who's going the need the Asprin for the headache the users will cause.
It ain't over till the fat lady falls on ya!
[ 2004.10.09 02:50:23 ] (combat) Your 425mm Compressed Coil Gun I perfectly strikes Guardian Sentry, wrecking for 747.3 damage.
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Techawk
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Posted - 2003.12.12 02:38:00 -
[381]
I have experienced the new gate travel on chaos and it is not fun. It is frustrating, it adds to travel time, which already is very long and boring. And now with no more bookmarks a indi has zero chance of escaping any ship who camps a gate. Anyone who can look at the map can see how many indis get killed everyday. What, the gate campers want 100% kill ratios.
And it is still impossible to catch them when they run.......This change is supposed to make the game more fun and encourage mining in 0.0..Don't think so This is a very bad move CCP
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SUNscatcher
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Posted - 2003.12.12 02:54:00 -
[382]
I can't speak for other people drunken but here is one viewpoint. For months a lot of people have been frustrated with eve. The "Big fix" has been touted as the arrival of tech 2.
Just as tech 2 is about to be delievered along comes another announcement that a major change in the way the game is played is also coming. On the surface the intent of the second change sounds promising but then when you give it some thought it quickly comes to mind that it will have a major impact on how the game is played.
frustration + anticipation = stress then add being blindsided by a major change. Is it really that difficult that some people have to vent?
I think the proposed changes for jump gates have to get into the "real" game to fully work out the details but I have also suggested limiting their application giving people the option to avoid them completely if they chose too.
The bugs will never be worked out on chaos. Until the dev's know what the final product will be and THEN can evaluate the effect of full scale implementation into the game, the trial area should be small and manageable but large enough so as to allow a real trial run in the real time eve enviorment.
If you can catch me you can have me. |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.12 03:03:00 -
[383]
Quote:
The bugs will never be worked out on chaos. Until the dev's know what the final product will be and THEN can evaluate the effect of full scale implementation into the game, the trial area should be small and manageable but large enough so as to allow a real trial run in the real time eve enviorment.
Q. Why hasn't Tank CEO ambushed me in Sarum Prime?
A. Because I knew he was there and didn't go there.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.12.12 05:58:00 -
[384]
Quote:
What I still don't get isa the people assume that this is the *final* implementation, within a week of it appearing on chaos. The fact that it is on chaos for purposes of tuning such things as travel time problems/escape-capture balance and such just totally goes over their heads.
TomB implemented the current version of the speed changes 4 days ago and at the same time ceased posting to the thread about it .. usually this means he's pretty much done with the subject .. that and the fact that this goes live in 3 days (and each previous change seemed to take him 2 days) chances of it changing again in an upwards direction = slim
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Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.12 07:10:00 -
[385]
Quote:
Quote:
What I still don't get isa the people assume that this is the *final* implementation, within a week of it appearing on chaos. The fact that it is on chaos for purposes of tuning such things as travel time problems/escape-capture balance and such just totally goes over their heads.
TomB implemented the current version of the speed changes 4 days ago and at the same time ceased posting to the thread about it .. usually this means he's pretty much done with the subject .. that and the fact that this goes live in 3 days (and each previous change seemed to take him 2 days) chances of it changing again in an upwards direction = slim
Given this:
Quote:
There will not be more changes to charges for this patch, truly sorry but there are now bigger matters that I must attend to (targeting speed, jump in points, warping, camping etc.).
I will unstick this thread and open a new one in the future, if more tuning will be needed.
in the Changes to Charges thread he unstuck, it sounds more like he's focusing on these specific changes and is just really busy.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.12.12 08:02:00 -
[386]
I was under the impression that the new travel/targetting JIP/gate changes weren't coming in on Monday with the rest of the new stuff. What with autopilotss not funtioning properly and stuff.
We'll have to wait and see, eh?
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2003.12.12 11:24:00 -
[387]
Quote:
I was under the impression that the new travel/targetting JIP/gate changes weren't coming in on Monday with the rest of the new stuff. What with autopilotss not funtioning properly and stuff.
We'll have to wait and see, eh?
Autopilot clears the 20km No_Warp Zone in Chaos... if that is what you meant Drunken...
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.12.12 11:53:00 -
[388]
yeah, that, and things like it. I really would expect more than a weeks testing before they unleash the travel/pvp changes all in one go.
Look at mobile refineries.. they've been on chaos for weeks now, and they still won't be jammed into castor on monday, because they still need finetuning.
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Anima1
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Posted - 2003.12.12 12:24:00 -
[389]
hmmm , lost of reading here. WOw, slower, get camped more often, with a high success rate already in pirates favor, hey make it higher.
If this is implemented, i suggest all across eve. THE BIG LOG OFF. let the pirates kill each other off for a week.
Read a book, rent some movies, get a new game and try it out. Let the amount of players logged in speak for itself.
CCP leave the ab's and mwd's alone. MAKE travel faster or suffer the consequences. To me this is a slap in the face, like your saying play the game my way or the highway. We are devs and we dont care.
Being coky with a (c) and thinking everyone will have to play this way is not cool.
if its implemented guys, just plan a week during this and dont log on uless your upping your skill points. if it stays that way, i'll see you in swg/planet side/true crime/Home world 2/the list goes on and on about new games I have been wanting to try. Finally a game to break the pay to play issue.
Keep your titans, tech 2-5, its just code, nothing im gaining irl. So it does not matter to me as much as you care about my feelings about the game. Stop being indian givers.
This was supposed to be fun, not work.
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Uuldahan
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Posted - 2003.12.12 13:29:00 -
[390]
You guys're so rigid, it's scary 
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