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Shock
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Posted - 2003.12.02 22:47:00 -
[31]
 Quote:
Unfortunately I can't check an existing bookmark of that type as I've never used bookmarks that way.
It's not that hard to make one right?
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soonÖ |
LeKjart
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Posted - 2003.12.02 22:56:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Chandra on 02/12/2003 23:07:02
Edited by: Chandra on 02/12/2003 23:06:38
I think its ok as such to be able to warp directly within jumping distance, because the problem would usually reside on the other side of the gate: If you want to quarantine a system, you should camp the gate in the surrounding systems leading to it, rather than try to intercept people on the way out.
Please correct me if I am misunderstanding this.
Also note that before the change, players entering a system all came in at the same point, regardless of the number of gates in the system. This meant that the system had effectively a single point of entry. Now there are as many points of entries as there are exits. This should change camping and blockade strategies.
And just to correct a misunderstanding: we don't want to get rid of camping or blockades, but make them more balanced.
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Crownan
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Posted - 2003.12.02 23:14:00 -
[33]
There really are two issues here, and I feel a lot of people confuse them.
Gate to Gate jumping: It's how they work, according to the story (remember the story?). Ships should exit out of the gates just as they do stations, slowly and in a straight line.
Jump in lag: This is different for everyone. The invulerability timer is the current fix for this on station undocking and warping. This *band-aid* could be applied to exiting the jumpgates. There is a better solution. The client *knows* when it is ready to start drawing the player's environment. This is obvious because the "Tuning" box goes away and the client starts drawing. All that is needed is a signal from the client to the server that it is ready to draw, and that is when the server presents the player to the other clients in that grid.
It is a fact that a few people knew about the lack of timers on jumping into the system from beta. It just wasn't exploited by those that knew as it is now. This is as good a time as any to fix things the way they should be. I think cloaking and invulnerabilty timers and "Magnetic Interference" really just need to be thrown out the window now and this client-server communication fix is implemented.
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.12.02 23:22:00 -
[34]
OK. Work keeps me out of game right now (I miss my corpmates  ) but I will go test this as soon as I can.
The solution with cloaking sounds brilliant tho. Very simple but very effective as it is practically the same as if the client returns a 'done' flag once he loaded. You guys surprise me everytime 
From what I can tell this will also give pirates the opportunity to use some tactics and to really... I mean effectively hunt people and block systems.
Blockades are good  As long as they¦re not being enforced by exploits tho.
As said will go to test this as soon as I can but so far this really sounds nice.
Mai's Idealog |
LeKjart
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Posted - 2003.12.02 23:23:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Chandra on 02/12/2003 23:27:44
Edited by: Chandra on 02/12/2003 23:23:37
Crowman, i think you are misunderstanding here. The cloaking thing is actually a robust implementation of the pattern 'the client tells you when its ready to go into action'. Don't think of it as cloaking, as that maybe confuses thing. Basically when you jump into a system, you are not there until you decide to move (probably because you feel that you have the whole scene loaded, or you feel confident enough), or 60 seconds elapses, whichever comes first.
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Halseth Durn
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Posted - 2003.12.02 23:28:00 -
[36]
Quote:
Edited by: Shock on 02/12/2003 22:09:45
OK I smell the first exploit here.
Imagine when a group of ships want to free a JIP (I don't know if this is still an issue with the sentry guns at the gates though).
Normally they will first send in one or two 'shieldtanks' to do recon and draw fire and targetjams, after which the rest of the group jump in.
Ofcourse this is not that different except now they can all jump in all at once, see what's happening, who's there, have almost a mminute to discuss who'll be locking who, let the shieldtanks break their cloak, wait till the defenders attack them and then completely roll over them in an organized fashion.
Normally the defenders had the (huge) advantage, but this will, instead of making it even, completely flip the scale to the attackers IMHO.
Actually, this will just move the defending force from the JIP to the gate exiting from the direction the attacking fleet is coming. (if you see a fleet coming from one direction, you defend the gate leading to the next system on their course)
Oberon-Inc FEAR MY EMOTICONS |
Crownan
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Posted - 2003.12.02 23:35:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Crownan on 02/12/2003 23:45:20
Quote:
Crowman, i think you are misunderstanding here. The cloaking thing is actually a robust implementation of the pattern 'the client tells you when its ready to go into action'. Don't think of it as cloaking, as that maybe confuses thing. Basically when you jump into a system, you are not there until you decide to move (probably because you feel that you have the whole scene loaded, or you feel confident enough), or 60 seconds elapses, whichever comes first.
I understand, and I know what your intentions are. But I do also agree with the argument that it may give the player(s) jumping in who (for the sake of argument) experiences no lag an advantage by allowing them time to evaluate and act. But of course there is a bit of tuning, as you said already, that can be implemented to minimize this advantage. I am not a fan of any type of invulnerability system (or "cloaking"), but as a gamer I understand the requirement for them in some instances. But if the Eve team could find a way to just do without them, it would of course be better. 
I am not attacking the solution, I like the approach. Any change that brings the game closer to the story and perhaps "realism" just adds to the immersion. But I have always wanted to have ships actually seem to *use* the jumpgates, so I had to throw that in.
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Halseth Durn
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Posted - 2003.12.02 23:38:00 -
[38]
Quote:
Edited by: Chandra on 02/12/2003 23:07:02
Edited by: Chandra on 02/12/2003 23:06:38
I think its ok as such to be able to warp directly within jumping distance, because the problem would usually reside on the other side of the gate: If you want to quarantine a system, you should camp the gate in the surrounding systems leading to it, rather than try to intercept people on the way out.
Please correct me if I am misunderstanding this.
Also note that before the change, players entering a system all came in at the same point, regardless of the number of gates in the system. This meant that the system had effectively a single point of entry. Now there are as many points of entries as there are exits. This should change camping and blockade strategies.
And just to correct a misunderstanding: we don't want to get rid of camping or blockades, but make them more balanced.
Im sorry, but the above statement in bold is completely incorrect.
Oberon-Inc FEAR MY EMOTICONS |
Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2003.12.02 23:53:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 02/12/2003 23:55:39
The cloak on jump in will help a little bit. But what happens when it takes you 3 minutes to load or more? This has happened to me when I jump into a large group of lag campers, and I have a fast computer and a fast internet connection.
Here are my suggestions:
1. As mentioned in another post, the client needs to tell the server when the screen has loaded after jumping. The client will not be allowed to do anything until it finishes loading.
2. Once a person who has just jumped, finishes loading they can immediately be locked by enemies, but they should also be able to immediately start warping (minus turning time) if they warp manually. I suggest that anybody on autopilot get an added delay so that afk travelers will be easy targets as they should be.
And if people can still target you after you have started to go to warp, but have not actually started flying, that will make the maneuvering skills more valuable which would be nice.
3. With regards to warping... Similar to number 1, the client should tell the server when the warp in point is done loading. Then the player can be immediatly targeted. This would give the traveler a brief chance to escape, but not enough time to blow through blockades Unless they are moving rediculously fast. If for some reason the client cannot tell the server when it has finished loading, then since warp in points tend to have less lag than jump in points, you should change the 10 second invulnerability to about 2 or 3 seconds. That would probably be fair for most players, although I don't think this would be fair for jump in points since those load times can vary a great deal.
Hopefully you guys are willing to put a lot of time into fixing these issues. This game will never be great unless the problems with jumping and warping can be ironed out. Jump in camping has ruined the game for a lot of players. Pirates need to earn their kills, and good players should always have some chance of escape, however slim.
Shamis
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Gafton
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Posted - 2003.12.02 23:54:00 -
[40]
When a player jumps into a system, does the location of the jump vary each time, or is it a set point where everyone jumps to?
Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead. |
Nervar
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Posted - 2003.12.02 23:54:00 -
[41]
Well atleast, this way cloacking modules is getting usebal.
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What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.03 00:09:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 03/12/2003 00:09:56
Quote:
Edited by: Chandra on 02/12/2003 23:07:02
Edited by: Chandra on 02/12/2003 23:06:38
I think its ok as such to be able to warp directly within jumping distance, because the problem would usually reside on the other side of the gate: If you want to quarantine a system, you should camp the gate in the surrounding systems leading to it, rather than try to intercept people on the way out.
Ah that's the problem. Say I wanted to blockade Pator. If I'm covering the Yulai gate that leads into Pator, an instant bookmark of the stargate would have someone exiting warp within jump distance of the Pator stargate. Instant escape.
Now if I'm in Pator at the Yulai stargate, things change slightly. The person entering Pator will appear at a random location with 15km-20km of the gate. Which means worse case scenario, they can be 15km-20km outside of warp scramble range just to start. Assuming the 15-20k is a sphere and they land 180 degrees around that sphere from me. No frigate can cover that type of distance, lock and warp scramble before they leave.
Best case is a 6 man team of frigates covering the sphere, which is a lot of manpower for one thing. And then the actual cloaking device inserts another issue. That being if the first action they do after jumping in is activate a cloaking device, they'll appear and disappear prolly before anyone notices them.
Gonna play with it a bit on Chaos after the restart. Need to see if the 15km-20km is a static area or not. If it's completely random, escape is guaranteed.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Artegg
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Posted - 2003.12.03 00:12:00 -
[43]
A quick question:
When you jump in do you show up in local straight away or only after you uncloak because that would make more sence?
I would say that if you show in local straight away then there is going to be no real fight because who ever is camping will see the local fill up and just warp to a safespot and log
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KIAHicks
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Posted - 2003.12.03 00:13:00 -
[44]
Edited by: KIAHicks on 03/12/2003 00:30:54
Well I think this solves a lot of the current problems. It doesn't solve all, and in some cases the problem just changes to a different method for the same problem.
But it does fix what my biggest complaint was, jump in lag. Its not the camping that annoyed me, it was the not been able to get a chance to active modules that would save your life. This fixes this. At least from a jump in perspective.
I for one will be making a 2nd copy of eve and heading to choas to help work out the bugs on this one :) I think the system is not perfect, but a huge improvement, and a rather elegent solution to the lag problem without introducing the chance of client size hacks.
Keenon: "After sitting in the system for FIVE hours without even a (go away)"...
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Valeria
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Posted - 2003.12.03 00:15:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Valeria on 03/12/2003 00:20:36
Quote:
Now, for those coming in the system, they will end up cloaked for a minute (except if they move) ... If they want to warp, they will still have to align themselves to warp destination, which might take some time (especially for heavier ships).
So you are saying that it is now possible to lock ships that are aligning for warp, but haven't yet actually warped? If so, that's great news. If not... then if you spot a pirate/enemy at a gate after warping to it or jumping to it, you can just warp to a station or a planet while your are cloaked, thus going from invulnerable to invulnerable giving the enemy no chance to even attempt a target lock.
Quote:
When you warp towards a gate you now come up at about 20 km from the gate
When you enter the solarsystem from a stargate you will end up on a random position in the range 15-20 km from the gate
This has to be increased alot considering it takes half a minute to lock a Bship with this new targetting mumbo jumbo. Even if the invulnerability timer is no more.
Also, what about warping into a belt or such? Will you be cloaked? Can you immidietly target someone in the belt and not get the "Your ship is aligning it's magnetic field" for 10 seconds?
Edit: Also, prevent warping to bookmarks within 20km of a gate or station. Just pop up a nice "Unable to lock to warp coordinates" message or whatever.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Reptar
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Posted - 2003.12.03 00:26:00 -
[46]
yes if they disable bookmarks that would be great
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KIAHicks
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Posted - 2003.12.03 00:34:00 -
[47]
Edited by: KIAHicks on 03/12/2003 00:37:13
Edited by: KIAHicks on 03/12/2003 00:35:15
out of intrest will there be any solution to warp in lag. For example a gourp of 6 are lag camping a gate in new caldari. you jump into the system and come out at a gate without pirates. You plan to attack the piraets with your fleet, you warp to the pirates and have no invuln warp timer coming out of warp so lag and die.
or will you only appear from warp with the same conditions as from a jump in?
PS I know this solves jip lag, and I'm really looking forward to seeing how it plays out :) I'm just intrested to know if warp in lag has been considered as part of the solution or will be looked into independantly.
Keenon: "After sitting in the system for FIVE hours without even a (go away)"...
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LeKjart
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Posted - 2003.12.03 01:21:00 -
[48]
We could use the same method with warp and undock, but in that case the default cloak time should be considerably less than a minute, as your ship is moving and a minute gives you the time to actually cross substantial distances. This might be fixed by actually leaving the ship with no thrust when coming out of warp, in which case it would quickly come to an halt, and any navigational command would jerk it out of cloak.
We decide to try it out first with jump-ins (and actually log-ins as well).
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Novo DuPont
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Posted - 2003.12.03 01:47:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Novo DuPont on 03/12/2003 01:51:52
Edited by: Novo DuPont on 03/12/2003 01:48:11
Chandra:
What happened to the talk about implementing multiple warp in point distances??
There is ships that have long range weapons that benefit from being at far distances for tracking.
Last I heard DEV's were looking into making warp in distances selectable like the "keep at" and "orbit" range commands.
Having the ablity to choose whether to warp in at 20 km, 30 km, or 40 km away would be a great help with large turrets that are designed to work at ranges of 30 km or longer.
Could you please give some info on if there has been any progress on this?
Ohh and what is meant by random points? Does it mean, for instance, that someone warping to a gate could end up 20 km past it, in front of it, to the left or right and also top or bottom and they never end up at the same point each time they warp there?
"To succeed greatly one must sacrifice greatly"
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Leitari
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Posted - 2003.12.03 01:57:00 -
[50]
Quote:
We could use the same method with warp and undock, but in that case the default cloak time should be considerably less than a minute, as your ship is moving and a minute gives you the time to actually cross substantial distances. This might be fixed by actually leaving the ship with no thrust when coming out of warp, in which case it would quickly come to an halt, and any navigational command would jerk it out of cloak.
We decide to try it out first with jump-ins (and actually log-ins as well).
well, there goes the gate camping. I dont know If you're gonna listen to this but what the hell, MWD's are an easy solution for gate camping like this, 2 units and boom you're gone. 5 - 8 kilometers is not enough to catch anything that has a mwd, the movement of the ship once the webs have been turned on, is more than enough to push the ship towards the gate and into jump range.
This isnt exactly what I had in mind for the next patch, I hope this is just something that you will refine and think about better because Im not quite sure what we pirates are supposed to do if this flopps out.
Here, Only the silent survive.
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h4x0
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Posted - 2003.12.03 02:08:00 -
[51]
Well this sucks. They are official trying to eliminate pirating in the game of eve. So what do you advertise now ccp. "Come play eve! Its great work. After working all day, come sit down, and mine. Work your ass off for no reward whatsoever, besides bragging about how big your wallet is. I mean you guys act like pirating should be totally eliminated. Of course all the carebears are gonna love this patch. Way to go CCP your #1.
I guess we all figured out why it took them so friggin long to patch. Instead of working on implementing the things they have already said they were going to, they work on ways to take the fun out of the game. I have three eve accounts as of right now, if this goes into a patch that would be the end of them. CCP, why don't you actually try pirating now, with the way you screwed up the game with the last patch. You might understand what we are talking about. For the carebears, way to go guys, you have *****ed and moaned enough to kill the game of Eve. Great job.
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Mastema: Milkshakes have icecream in them, you are drinking flavored milk, ya jackass.
Jade Constantine > looks like you blasted the crap out of a load of our ships again
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Kiana'tre
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Posted - 2003.12.03 02:09:00 -
[52]
Ok let me draw out how you have this now.
Say an Allaince (Nerf Pirateing More Inc.) wants to block off MINEMEMORE-CFK which has multiple entraces.
With your new WONDERFUL idea on how to stop pirates ganking people so much people will have to defend the gate going into where ever they want people not to go into.
SO Since Nerf Pirateing More Inc. Has MINEMEMORE-CFK blocked off with 5 Scorpians Loaded with Anti ECM and Sensor Boosters (Valued at over 450 mil counting modules) the attacking group will now get in the gate that allows them to cloack and get the jump on the other group which they have scouted.
Ok the attacking group has 3 Black Birds and 2 Armegeddons they jump into the gate camp and have 1 full minute to plan out the attack. They Gather up in a nice ball and plan to launch their drones (this makes them hard as crap to target and for the defending NERF PIRATEING MORE INC. to pick the targets (Which they have no clue about what the attacking team is flying or how they are setup and therefore have at no pre-battle planning specific to this fight much unlike the attacking team which has 1 full minute to figure everything out) so back to this WONDERFUL PvP we are about to get.
Once the attacking team lauches their drones the Blackbirds Uncloack 1st well the Battleships have no Chance in locking them cause of this new Bull-hit locking time. So now the 5 scorpians are sensor dampened by (6x3=18 18/5=3.6) 3 or more dampeners. As soon as this happens the Black Birds start to drive away. Now the Geddons uncloack and since they have a clue which ship they are going to kill first they unleash Pure beat-ass on the scorps by the time (if they are even limited by time and not range) the scorps lock the geddons at least one of the scorps is dead. all the while the black birds are alternateing dampeners on the scorps to concentrate the range kill.......... in effect you (with the bull-hit new jump in crap and the lock time) totally made a joke out of PvP....... Wow i am so lad i bought a 100 mil apoc that is going to be able to get romped on by 1 BlackBird and 1 Griffin WTS APOC WTS EVE ONLINE ACCOUNT
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h4x0
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Posted - 2003.12.03 02:15:00 -
[53]
Kiana, please dont sell your account. Please just cancel it. That way no one pays CCP money for screwing up a great game so badly. Maybe when their wallets start showing a loss of money. They might think "Well crap, maybe mining does suck", "OMFG I wish we hadnt releashed that horrible ass patch." :) Maybe that would keep them from F'in up another game in the future.
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Mastema: Milkshakes have icecream in them, you are drinking flavored milk, ya jackass.
Jade Constantine > looks like you blasted the crap out of a load of our ships again
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J3tt
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Posted - 2003.12.03 02:15:00 -
[54]
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Can your pod outrun a cruise missle? |
h4x0
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Posted - 2003.12.03 02:16:00 -
[55]
Edited by: h4x0 on 03/12/2003 02:19:49
Chandra have you even actually played this game?
If you wouldnt have put sentry guns in .4's-.1's, you wouldnt have so many people doing jump in camping. For those who have actually done it, know that it is harder than everyone says, and most people that use autopilot just warp right out of it. Cause and effect, you screwed the game, we screwed everyone else.
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Mastema: Milkshakes have icecream in them, you are drinking flavored milk, ya jackass.
Jade Constantine > looks like you blasted the crap out of a load of our ships again
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LeKjart
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Posted - 2003.12.03 02:16:00 -
[56]
Killing other players by spreading tons of containers to willfully lag incoming players into stupor doesn't sound like fun either. It is just using a flaw in the system instead of having a fair fight for both. This is being used a lot. We will balance this such that both sides have a fair chance.
I suggest we try this out and find the weak points rather than flaming this.
Regarding incoming warp points, it has been changed such that when you warp towards a station, gate and other such structures, you will appear at the closest point in line-of-sight between your origin and destination. This is indeed a change from before. Thus two players warping to a gate from diametrically opposite directions will end up in diametrically opposite positions around the gate.
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Kiana'tre
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Posted - 2003.12.03 02:19:00 -
[57]
Ok no flames..... but do this .........
Make the JIP somewhere in teh middle of space that cannot ever be Book marked or warped to
And Have over 500 JIP's that are the same way
Just make them a Number X Y Z randomly generated within some range that follow some Mathmatical rule and then disallow bookmarks that follow this rule.
Then you will stop JIP camping cause no one can get to them then you will preserve the rest of the game.... this uncloacking stuff is Bull$hit
please reply i will write back
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Kiana'tre
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Posted - 2003.12.03 02:22:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Kiana'tre on 03/12/2003 02:26:01
Have the game just put people into these slots as the jumpins increase 1-500 or whatever then if they want to gather they can all go to a planet...... Once people jump into a system they can just go right back out with your crap rules
Do what i just explained and you will fix what is making people so mad and then you will also allow people to get trapped in a system they jumped into.
The thing to do is just make the jump ins unplayable space and also to disallow all combat from this area so with my idea two ships never see each other at the JIP
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Leitari
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Posted - 2003.12.03 02:22:00 -
[59]
putting out containers? thats not been done in ages, when did you enter the game last? Mines have been used and Drones ARE beeing used. We havent used mines for a while mainly because they are boring to use but everyone uses drones. This only shows that you are in no touch with the pirate community, only the carebear side. Kind of sad.
Here, Only the silent survive.
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Ukiah
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Posted - 2003.12.03 02:24:00 -
[60]
The irony of the benefactors of the current 'PVP' system (ie camping a gate and ganking people before their screens even load) complaining that proposed new system of 'PVP' (ie giving the incoming ships time to orient themselves) has now reversed the roles and made work with a disadvantage, is, quite simply, massive.
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